Least Favorite "Standard" Opera
REG
that might otherwise suprise their nearest and dearest? For me it's
Pagliacci. Although I love verismo (I've listend to Marguerita da Cortona
too many times for my own good), there's nothing I know of Leoncavallo that
appeals to me at all...to the contrary, I consider his choice of themes
(narratively) vulgar - not necessarily bloody or sexy, just vulgar - and
rarely redeemed by any higher emotion, and on top of that objection, there's
almost no music in Pag that I can listen too without wishing I were
somewhere else. What brings this to mind is going through the Romophone Pag
with Gigli.
Any other betes noires?
Matthew B. Tepper
news:RUM67.17240$I5.33...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
I used to say that about _Il Trovatore_; and I had a girlfriend who loved
practically all the standard operas but could not abide _Aida_. So that
became one of our usual in-jokes. Since that time, I have come to enjoy
(but not love) _Trovatore_. No idea what that ex-girlfriend thinks of
_Aida_ now, but she seemed to have father issues. (Which also explained,
once I thought about it, why her *favorite* opera was _Cenerentola_, since
the daughter is triumphant over the father, and generously forgives him.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
si...@webtv.net
right across the head. As for me, I can't stand La Boheme anymore. It
might be a matter of over-exposure since for almost a decade or so, you
can't avoid the thing and so I'm sick of it and can't bear listening to
it anymore. Come to think of it, Aida is starting to wear me down too.
best John
Roger D. White
For me it's "Faust."
I really don't judge an opera's worth by the libretto. Gioconda, for
example, by and large, has one of the most pitiful of plots; but for me
the music is vital enough to make it an immensely enjoyable experience
anyway. So, it's what Wagner would call "effects without causes" - so
what, in this case just sit back and enjoy the music.
Faust also has what could be considered a fairly uncompelling story:
little more than a sentimental morality tale, and a fragmentation of
Goethe's work. Little wonder the Germans refuse to call the opera Faust,
renaming it Margarethe instead. (Or do they still do that?)
When I first encountered opera, I took pretty easily to the work, but it
was one of the very few such that has since fallen from my favor.
I don't know why, really. Maybe because much of the music is *too*
accessible, too sweet, too over refined. I do still enjoy the love duets
in the Garden scene, but that's about it. The rest just has a wearying
effect, and I find myself wanting to be listening to Venus and
Tannhauser in Act 1, or something.
I hope this condition is temporary only, and I may once again be able to
hum along with The Soldier's Chorus, but for now I can't abide it!
~ Roger
Skip
Carmen
Most of Wagner
Nabucco
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RUM67.17240$I5.33...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
TColl65159
oh ,this is beautiful music, but 2 hours later it sounds just the same!!
I think hearing it in one`s own language would help (come on Chandos !!!), but
even so I think I`d sooner listen to paint dry.
Trev(UK)
Mark D. Lew
soften up on it. I still can't abide act two, but I can imagine maybe
wanting to see the rest of the show.
Part of that was due to being intensely overexposed to the show over the
course of a few years, but that can't be all of it. I've been even more
overexposed to BOHEME, and I still love that one.
The standard that really does nothing for me musically is Mozart's FIGARO.
A sufficiently interesting staging of it (ie, either non-traditional or
very well-acted*) will hold my attention for most of the show, but even
then I get bored during the set-piece arias. (Yes, I mean those arias that
everyone else loves so much.)
* Come to think of it, one could argue that very well-acted IS
non-traditional...
I think almost any work will become tiresome to me if I hear it too often.
What I find interesting is noting which pieces are exceptions to the rule
-- that is, pieces that you DON'T get sick of, no matter how much they are
done to death. Aside from Boheme, which I already mentioned, I'm still not
sick of the soprano-mezzo duet from Lakme, notwithstanding the zillions of
television commercials.
mdl
david melnick
can't STAND to listen to more than four times a day for too many weeks in a row.
:-))
2) A few operas I _do_ like so much that I sometimes hesitate to put them on,
because I don't want to spend hours being dragged through an emotional wringer.
Otello and Tristan would be the most obvious examples. But, equally obviously, I
always come back to them.
3) Margherita da Cortona??? I have a looong way to go! :-)
David
REG
I think to be a moment of great beauty, I find the rest too treacly.
<si...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27413-3B...@storefull-128.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Matthew B. Tepper
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net:
> The standard that really does nothing for me musically is Mozart's
> FIGARO. A sufficiently interesting staging of it (ie, either
> non-traditional or very well-acted*) will hold my attention for most of
> the show, but even then I get bored during the set-piece arias. (Yes, I
> mean those arias that everyone else loves so much.)
_Figaro_ has never "engaged" me nearly as much as the other two Da Pontes.
Karen Mercedes
little in it musically that attracts me, and as far as the characters are
concerned, the feelings they inspire range from antipathy to apathy.
Frankly, I think this is one of the most overrated operatic behemoths.
I feel similarly about FALSTAFF, aside from the brilliantly executed Act
I, Sc 2 - but I blame Shakespeare even more than Verdi for its failure. I
have a hard time forgiving Shakespeare for the mediocrity of THE MERRY
WIVES OF WINDSOR, and its insulting treatment of the John Falstaff
character. I can blame Verdi only for having the poor judgment to choose
it as the basis for his opera, instead of one of Shakespeare's many other,
much better comedies.
KM
............................
NEIL SHICOFF pages
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/shicoff/shicoff.html
My Own Website
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Singers are often so fired up after a +
+ a performance, they want sex instantly. +
+ - Jilly Cooper, SCORE! +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Doctor Angelicus
I could never stand Madama Butterfly. I am not surprised that the
first performance was booed although the current version was revised
by Puccini after that.
If the current version is so boring, I can imagine how dreadful was
the original one.
Karen Mercedes
and LOHENGRIN. As for the rest, a "REduced Wagner" (like the "Reduced
Shakespeare") would be a MERCY - we could extract the 2 hours or so of
really beautiful, compelling music from his entire operatic oeuvre and
discard the rest of the endless, only marginally musical recits.
Bart Thomas
Fritz.
I suspect that it's mediocre performers most of the time that lead us to be
dissapointed in the "standard" operas.
Having grown up in a world where, if Warren was'nt singing, London was, or
Merrill, I've had a poor time lately with most of the Verdi repertory,
considering what is being passed off as singing by the current crop of
baritones. I suspect that the problem lies more with casting directors than
they are willing to admit.
For example, If Warren (in peak form) were to materialize, I wonder if he'd
be hired! That is a tragedy!
Bart
REG <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RUM67.17240$I5.33...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Skip
sleeping.
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
Siegfried Pinkerton
> Give Leocavallo a break, and listen to at least the cherry duet from L'amico
> Fritz.
Mascagni was a much better composer, that's for sure ;-) My least
favorite standard opera is probably PAGLIACCI (or is it FAUST ?).
--
Siegfried Pinkerton
* Musik ist eine heilige Kunst *
Terrymelin
Barber of Seville" because every company puts it on because they think if they
throw some thin, good-looking actors at us we'll be thrilled even though they
can't sing worth a damn.
Terry Ellsworth
Matthew B. Tepper
news:9jhock$jp2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net:
> For example, If Warren (in peak form) were to materialize, I wonder if
> he'd be hired! That is a tragedy!
Nope, he wouldn't be pretty enough for PBS.
Robin
"Karen Mercedes" wrote,
> I have a hard time forgiving Shakespeare for the mediocrity of THE MERRY
> WIVES OF WINDSOR, and its insulting treatment of the John Falstaff
> character. >
Still harbouring a grudge after all these centuries? Better to forgive and
move on. I wish I could take my own advice re Mario Lanza for his
unimaginably smug arrogance in presuming to play Enrico Caruso. His poor
technique and dirty harmonic spectrum were an insult to the great one's
memory, in my very reasonable opinion of course. :)
Robin
Mark D. Lew
dacia...@hotmail.com (Doctor Angelicus) wrote:
> I could never stand Madama Butterfly. I am not surprised that the
> first performance was booed although the current version was revised
> by Puccini after that.
> If the current version is so boring, I can imagine how dreadful was
> the original one.
Apparently you didn't hear the whole story. It's very well-established that
the booing of the Butterfly premiere was engineered by the la Scala claque.
The piece may or may not have had problems, but the booing at the premiere
is no indication of them.
===
In article <nyW67.7328$Px1.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
> _Figaro_ has never "engaged" me nearly as much as the other two Da Pontes.
I think that Figaro relies on the details of the story much more than the
other two. That is, the details of the text and the action on stage are
more important. As a result, it still works well on a small stage for those
who understand the language, but it doesn't "travel" as well. (It is,
after all, essentially a sit-com.)
===
In article <9jhock$jp2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>, "Bart Thomas"
<bart_...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Give Leocavallo a break, and listen to at least the cherry duet from L'amico
> Fritz.
I'm not sure if you're mixing composers intentionally or by mistake, but
the point is a good one. The non-Cav Mascagni that I've heard sounds quite
a bit different from Cav, whereas the non-Pag Leoncavallo I've heard sounds
pretty much the same.
(For what it's worth, I prefer the Cav-Pag style. I do like Cavalleria
better, but I love Pagliacci, too, and was surprised to find so many
detractors. L'Amico Fritz, on the other hand, does little for me, and the
only part of Iris I liked was the garish Puccini-like choral prelude and
postlude.)
[Bart again]
> I suspect that it's mediocre performers most of the time that lead us to be
> dissapointed in the "standard" operas.
I don't think so. I think we just have different tastes. Any individual is
going to have one or two that he or she just doesn't care for, and repeated
exposure to it will exacerbate the dislike.
We hear that refrain a lot in this newsgroup -- "Oh, you'll change your
mind if only you hear a good performance of it." But I think most of the
time it doesn't work that way.
mdl
Siegfried Pinkerton
> I think that Figaro relies on the details of the story much more than the
> other two. That is, the details of the text and the action on stage are
> more important. As a result, it still works well on a small stage for those
> who understand the language, but it doesn't "travel" as well. (It is,
> after all, essentially a sit-com.)
I once saw a hilarious film of LE NOZZE DI FIGARO on British TV, sung in
English, and in the style of a sitcom. I never watch sitcoms, and
despise canned laughter, but this film worked surprisingly well, and I
would love to see it again ! Does anyone know who the singers were ?
Geoffrey Riggs
"Siegfried Pinkerton" <siegfried...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ex0n5s.i7d87q1jttwsoN%siegfried...@hotmail.com...
> Bart Thomas <bart_...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Give Leocavallo a break, and listen to at least the cherry duet from
L'amico
> > Fritz.
>
> Mascagni was a much better composer, that's for sure ;-) My least
> favorite standard opera is probably PAGLIACCI (or is it FAUST ?).
Actually, among the unequivocally bread-and-butter staples, I'm afraid
certain extended sequences in Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana are now
starting to wear out their welcome, IMHO. I now find this piece the least
consistently compelling of those in the standard rep, although it still has
certain highly effective stretches alongside the dross. Just not enough of
those for me, I guess. I don't dismiss it entirely, but perhaps too much
exposure has now made me more impatient with a higher percentage of its
music than with that of any other standard-rep piece I can think of. (Is
there any other piece more inane than Alfio's entrance song?)
Among those that flit in and out of the rep, not quite standard now but not
quite esoteric either, the three that I view more or less the same
ambivalent way as I do Cavalleria are: Ponchielli's La Gioconda,
Saint-Saens's Samson et Dalila and Smetana's Bartered Bride. They sometimes
strike me these days as so uneven from scene to scene that there has to be
something overwhelming in the performance for me to stick them out. Ditto
Cavalleria. Mea culpa.
Two operas I have never cottoned to at all (and they're not standard rep and
I've only heard them on an occasional tape at, say, some friend's house,
never in the theatre) are Balfe's Bohemian Girl and Delibes's Lakme.
A daaaaaangerous question<G>,
Geoffrey Riggs
================================
www.operacast.com
CarriDiva
>little in it musically that attracts me<<
Whew! I, also, find Aida musically "not stirring."
Thank you, Karen, for giving me the courage to "come out!"
...and I cannot stand "Butterfly."
C.
Don Paolo
After over 40 years of listening, basta already!
Regards,
DonPaolo
<si...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27413-3B...@storefull-128.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Don Paolo
But, alas, you just might be right (maledizione di dio).
DonPaolo
Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kU_67.7955$Px1.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
REG
Opera with Helen Garetty, and somehow it is a bit too discursive, too much
trying to tell a story, rather than Ciociosan/Pinkerton's story. You can see
why, even without the claque, it might not have made it if people didn't
know in advance that they were supposed to be listening to a
masterpiece....in other words, the "through-line" (G-d forgive me) wasn't
clear enough...and Mark, I don't think it's entirely an issue of the claque,
since P went throught two sets of revisions.
What does surprise me is that several people find Madame B their least
favorite...I'd not have guessed that.
"Mark D. Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
REG
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
REG
duet, or zaza or the other boheme....it's all kind of sticky sweet or
vulgar...I find the cherry duet completely unconvincing, kind of like
musical effects without causes (who said that???).
"Bart Thomas" <bart_...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9jhock$jp2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
REG
I wish Capuletti had consistently higher level of music) and even some
Wolf-Ferrari (although I tend to find him "noisy")...
"Siegfried Pinkerton" <siegfried...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ex0n5s.i7d87q1jttwsoN%siegfried...@hotmail.com...
REG
beginning to end...to me that would make a difference, although I do admit
that my interest sags a bit whenever the baritone sings...it feels too much
like a set piece interrupting the flow. The Balfe I only know on the Argos
label, and kind of like it, and more so the Delibes, but I am not sure that
even the Delibes qualifies under my question about "standard" operas....
"Geoffrey Riggs" <ehu...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:9ji584$9...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Matthew B. Tepper
news:n1477.17525$I5.35...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
> Gee Karen, it sounds like you think Wager's almost as bad as Berg.....
Would you bet on it?
REG
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:km477.9079$Px1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Mark D. Lew
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've seen the whole thing performed as origninally presented, at the Paris
> Opera with Helen Garetty, and somehow it is a bit too discursive, too much
> trying to tell a story, rather than Ciociosan/Pinkerton's story. You can see
> why, even without the claque, it might not have made it if people didn't
> know in advance that they were supposed to be listening to a
> masterpiece....in other words, the "through-line" (G-d forgive me) wasn't
> clear enough...and Mark, I don't think it's entirely an issue of the claque,
> since P went throught two sets of revisions.
As I said before: "The piece may or may not have had problems, but the
booing at the premiere is no indication of them."
The conclusion that the booing at the premiere was engineered by the claque
is based not on any assessment of the music, but rather on simple
historical evidence. I don't recall the details, but it's all spelled out
in Carner, and in some of the other books as well. The booing was going to
happen regardless of whether the piece was good or bad. Thus, I argued, one
shouldn't draw conclusions about the original version based on the boos.
I haven't heard the original version, but I've read the libretto, and I'm
inclined to agree with you that the revised version is a great improvement.
There are actually four sets of revisions (each of which is detailed on
Rick Bogart's Opera Glass page). The first revision made major changes,
including drastic reductions in the first act; the other three revisions
included only minor changes.
mdl
REG
are absolutely correct, and I wish someone else would inform us both of the
reason...I have a vague recollection it was related to some rivalry with
another composer (???), and not just some loggionisti who hadn't been paid
off. And thanks for the correction on the number of edits. I think I recall
that City Opera here also did an urtext version a few years ago, but I
didn't go.
"Mark D. Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
Mark D. Lew
<ehu...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Actually, among the unequivocally bread-and-butter staples, I'm afraid
> certain extended sequences in Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana are now
> starting to wear out their welcome, IMHO. I now find this piece the least
> consistently compelling of those in the standard rep, although it still has
> certain highly effective stretches alongside the dross. Just not enough of
> those for me, I guess. I don't dismiss it entirely, but perhaps too much
> exposure has now made me more impatient with a higher percentage of its
> music than with that of any other standard-rep piece I can think of. (Is
> there any other piece more inane than Alfio's entrance song?)
Yes, several.
Alfio's song is a bit lacking in something, but it's far too weird to be
called "inane".
This is a very strange piece, and I think it is habitually interpreted far
too weakly. Whether you think they are intentional (as I do) or just bad
writing, the piece is full of quirks -- unexpected resolutions to the
"wrong" chord, verses coming in sooner than anticipated, and that almost
Ives-like part in the middle where it's an eighth note off-sync with the
rest of the piece.
The standard approach to this seems to be to try to smoothe over these
"flaws" and make it sound pretty, which I think is a huge mistake. Quite to
the contrary, I think the quirks should be exaggerated almost to the point
of caricature, so that the real nature of the music is clearly heard. Most
of this is the conductor's job, but the baritone can add a lot to it by
making the most of the strange text accents, with creative use of dynamics
and phrasing. (It helps considerably if the men's chorus can be taught to
do the same thing.) Most of this is implied in the orchestra part but not
really explicit in the vocal line.
If the result of this exaggerated interpretation is that the baritone
sounds like his sense of musicality is a little bit off, then that's
exactly the point. It's easy to overlook it 120 years after the fact, but
Alfio is supposed to be a "modern" character. He represents the new middle
class which no one in the village has seen before, and he alone is in
regular contact with the strange new ways that are starting to filter into
the larger cities of Sicily. To the villagers, he is compelling and
exciting, but at the same time modern and alien.
This culture shock is an essential part of the story, and the audience
needs to see Alfio in this light. Without it, Alfio is just another jealous
husband; Turiddu's conflicted, fatalistic self-destructiveness is
unmotivated; and the whole story is nothing more than a routine love
triangle.
With Alfio's aria, Mascagni intends to communicate this part of his
setting. It is definitely arguable that he has failed in this, but I don't
think you can deny the intent. Mascagni is obviously capable of writing a
tune in a traditional lyric style. Whether you think he's a great composer
or a mediocre one, you can't think that he would resolve the main theme of
the aria with a tritone, nor write the entire middle section off the beat,
just because he's stupid and doesn't know better. Obviously, he's aiming
for something here. The job of the interpreter is to try to make sense of
this and do something with it, not just to sweep it under the rug.
--
> Two operas I have never cottoned to at all (and they're not standard rep and
> I've only heard them on an occasional tape at, say, some friend's house,
> never in the theatre) are Balfe's Bohemian Girl and Delibes's Lakme.
I like Lakme.
A few years ago I studied the Balfe fairly thoroughly, and I have to agree
that it's mostly forgettable (and mostly forgotten). Aside from the famous
tune, I like the final aria OK (a pleasant bit of vocal flashiness for the
soprano with the usual full ensemble fanfare to close out the show with a
hurrah). I also liked one of the queen's arias, but I don't remember if it
was the one that got replaced or the one that replaced it.
Other than that, it's pretty bland. (If I may quote Tom Lehrer, "the music
was ... quite Rudolf Friml-y".)
mdl
Bart Thomas
Bart
Siegfried Pinkerton <siegfried...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ex0n5s.i7d87q1jttwsoN%siegfried...@hotmail.com...
Oisk17
I snooze through The Magic Flute. Just cannot get interested in it, and I have
seen it several times.
Regards,
Paul
John Putnam
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010723151553...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
I couldn't agree with you more on the Rossini, Terry, and although I like
all the Verdi operas --- Traviata has never done it for me either. No
rhyme or reason!
My three cents.
John Putnam
david melnick
Am I a hopeless naif? (Don't answer that!) If you list the unliked operas in
this thread, you name many of my favorites: Pag, Cav, Aida, Traviata,
Trovatore, Faust, Carmen, Butterfly, Boheme, "most of" Wagner, Nozze,
Zauberflote and on until you get to Bartered Bride and Lakme (not faves but not
"leasts"). And poor Barbiere! Can Fidelio and Don G. be far behind? (Don't
answer that, either!)
When I entertained my schoolfellows at 11 with the Habanera and Vesti la giuba,
I never thought that 50-something years later I'd have to feel guilty about
liking that music!
Tailbetweenhislegs,
David
Himadri
> Do other people have particular dislike for any of the standard repetoire
> that might otherwise suprise their nearest and dearest? For me it's
> Pagliacci. Although I love verismo (I've listend to Marguerita da Cortona
> too many times for my own good), there's nothing I know of Leoncavallo that
> appeals to me at all...to the contrary, I consider his choice of themes
> (narratively) vulgar - not necessarily bloody or sexy, just vulgar - and
> rarely redeemed by any higher emotion, and on top of that objection, there's
> almost no music in Pag that I can listen too without wishing I were
> somewhere else. What brings this to mind is going through the Romophone Pag
> with Gigli.
>
> Any other betes noires?
Reading through this thread, I find the range of subjective views
expressed quite amazing. We all have blind spots (deaf spots?) and I
guess my likes and dislikes will appear as weird as those of others
seem to me. Needless to say, my taste is a comment on myself, and not
on the composers or the works I dislike.
For the record, I love Mozart's operas above all others, and "Le Nozze
di Figaro" is the opera I could least do without. I also love Wagner,
even those so-called "boring bits" - I've even been known to sing
along to the "mauvais quatre heure" of "Tristan und Isolde" :) !
"Parsifal", too, works its spell on me, despite a libretto that makes
no sense at all, no matter how I look at it. But I do dislike the
ending of "Die Meistersinger", which seems to me at least as pompous
as anything Wagner satirises in the rest of the work.
I must confess I've rarely enjoyed Rossini. It's all sparkle and
glitter, but I can't really hear anything more. And furthermore, I
don't find those long patter arias at all witty. I don't think I'd
care much if I never heard "Barbiere" again. (I do like the overture,
though - it reminds me of that wonderful Bugs Bunny cartoon "The
Rabbit of Seville".)
And - please don't send out the lynch mobs! - I find both "La Boheme"
and "Madama Butterfly" rather dull until the love duets at the end of
Act 1. I'm not too taken by the second act of "La Boheme" either -
although the rest of the opera is wonderful. And as for that
orchestral interlude in "Butterfly" - what WAS Puccini thinking of?
As for Verdi, "Falstaff" is my favourite - the greatest comic opera
Mozart never wrote. I love every note of it. The Verdi opera I have
most difficulty with is "La Forza del Destino". There are, of course,
superb passages throughout, but I could do without some of those
scenes in the army camp, or those scenes with Preziosilla (sp?) and
Melitone. This is one work that, for me, really could do with some
editing.
"Pelleas et Melisande" is a work that many find dull, but I find
myself enraptured from first note to last. Strauss I find more
difficult. "Salome" and "Elektra" I quite like, but they hardly rate
amongst my favourite works. I've never been able to listen to "Der
Rosenkavalier" all the way through (there are lovely bits, of
course!), and anything written after that I dislike intensely. I guess
I'd listen to "Ariadne auf Naxos" again - but only if I was paid an
awful lot of money!
"Wozzeck" I think is wonderful, but I never did understand "Lulu": it
has always seemed to me cold, and lacking in humanity. I guess the
opera is just not for me. On the other hand, I've loved everything
I've heard by Janacek and by Britten. I'm currently going through a
phase of listening to various recordings of "Peter Grimes".
I'd better emphasise yet again that these are personal blind spots,
and nothing more. One's taste develops all the time - and maybe I'll
come round to liking these works some day!
Rgds, Himadri
Geoffrey Riggs
> Who said I hadn't tried other Leoncavallo? But I don't even like the
cherry
> duet, or zaza or the other boheme....it's all kind of sticky sweet or
> vulgar...I find the cherry duet completely unconvincing, kind of like
> musical effects without causes (who said that???).
er.....someone called Richard Wagner, I believe.......?<G>
A rather amusing mistake(?)/misunderstanding(?) appears to have taken root
here in this thread: I'm not sure whether it's due to our redoubtable "REG"
or to an earlier poster, but the cherry duet has now been referred to twice
as Leoncavallo's. It isn't. It comes from L'Amico Fritz--and I may be
stating the obvious here, but L'Amico Fritz is by Mascagni.
As for Leoncavallo's Zaza and his Boheme, I'd agree that Leoncavallo's
Boheme is very uneven, although I like certain moments in the last two acts
and really believe most of Act III is pretty strong.
When it comes to Zaza, I have liked the entire work from the very first time
I heard it (a BelCanto Opera prod. in New York) and have continued to enjoy
it through a pretty sadly recorded(:~(() b'cast of the mesmerizing Mafalda
Favero. This is a magical performance of an affecting work with, alas, huge
pitch lurches in the original tape source that are, frankly, hair-raising.
They haven't diminished my enthusiasm for this opera.
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
========================
www.operacast.com
OLDJEW
Take a comfy pillow..relax..have a drink.
A nap is always nice.
Who says everything has to be enchanting?
AEOJ
Doctor Angelicus
Along with Madama Butterfly, the Magic Flute is one of my least favorite too.
Karen Mercedes
> For me, if I never hear Butterfly or Carmen again, it would be too soon.
> After over 40 years of listening, basta already!
>
> Regards,
>
> DonPaolo
You mean, I shouldn't send you copies of my favourite Domingo recordings
of these operas? :)
Karen Mercedes
> Gee Karen, it sounds like you think Wager's almost as bad as Berg.....
>
Not at all. The ideal "reduced Berg" programme would consist of the 12
notes of his scale played once.
Karen Mercedes
original aria - Love smiles but to deceive - which was inexplicably
replaced by the far less compelling Love forever past when the opera
crossed the Atlantic.
Karen Mercedes
ZAUBERFLOETE is my least favourite of the "big name" Mozart operas. Even
Ingmar Bergman couldn't charm me with this work. It's got some nice music
in it, but lacks (for me) the wicked humour and cohesivenesss of the Da
Ponte comedies. I even prefer IDOMENEO and LA CLEMENZA DI TITO, for all
their endless opera seria recitativing. I just don't warm up to the
"fairy tale" qualities of the opera, nor to the masonic subtext.
Andy Averill
> Do other people have particular dislike for any of the standard repetoire
> that might otherwise suprise their nearest and dearest? For me it's
> Pagliacci. Although I love verismo (I've listend to Marguerita da Cortona
> too many times for my own good), there's nothing I know of Leoncavallo
that
> appeals to me at all...to the contrary, I consider his choice of themes
> (narratively) vulgar - not necessarily bloody or sexy, just vulgar - and
> rarely redeemed by any higher emotion, and on top of that objection,
there's
> almost no music in Pag that I can listen too without wishing I were
> somewhere else. What brings this to mind is going through the Romophone
Pag
> with Gigli.
>
> Any other betes noires?
Parsifal. Wake me when it's over.
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michael farris
In no particular order operas that I (at various times) have disliked (but
which I now appreciate)
Zauberflote : I just didn't like this for a long time, the music was ... I
don't know, it just didn't have the usual Mozart sparkle and the German
dialogue didn't help (I remember _hating_ the sound of spoken German, which I
now really like). I still have to turn an uncomprehending ear to some of the
texts and I still dislike most of Papagenos' music though Sarastros' "In
diesem(r?) Hall" is maybe my favorite bass aria ever.
Tosca : Great first act curtain and incredible second act but the third act is
usually a big anticlimax and I really have little patience for the character
of Tosca who seems boring and annoying in the first act and deeply unaware of
her surrounding and wrongheaded the rest of the time, stabbing Scarpia is the
only interesting thing she does the whole damn opera. (and Cavaradossi is also
rather annoying, from his enabling behavior with Tosca to his ham-fisted
smugness and self-pity in the last act).
Rosenkavalier : For a long time I really couldn't stand the Marschallin who
seemed vain and shallow, a kind of Viennese Imelda Marcos, I still think that
she's vain and shallow in the first act (and was meant to be that way) but
appreciate the overall message of the opera about the ways relationships
change both partners (without the influence of the Marschallin and real
emotions he awakened in her, Octavian would never have dared to rescue Sophie
and without Octavian's influence, the Marschallin wouldn't have gracefully
stood aside, which I imagine is the first unselfish thing she'd done in a
looong time)
Fliedermaus : I detested the whole thing the first time I heard it (more
German dialogue) I'm still not fond of it.
Wozzeck: (stretching 'standard' somewhat) : Despite two interesting scenes
(Marie watching the soldiers and later reading from the bible) it just sounds
murky and nasty, Wozzeck lives in a perpetual state of anxiety and fear and
Berg captures that too well.
Walkuere: Fricka's right damn it! (the whole damn Ring is kind of an 'idiot'
plot, namely if the main character, Wotan, weren't an idiot, there would be no
plot).
-michael farris
Mark D. Lew
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks - I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that there was a claque... you
> are absolutely correct, and I wish someone else would inform us both of the
> reason...I have a vague recollection it was related to some rivalry with
> another composer (???), and not just some loggionisti who hadn't been paid
> off.
You're probably thinking of Leoncavallo, but more likely it was general
rivalry with most composers along with the entire non-Ricordi musical
establishment of Milan. Leoncavallo was on bad terms with Puccini ever
since the Boheme incident, and of course their individual rivalry was tied
in with the more general Ricordi-Sonzogno rivalry. Both publishing houses
were headquartered in Milan, but while Ricordi was more or less nationwide,
Sonzogno was still strongly focused in the City. The Sonzogni controlled a
large network of business interests in Milan, with music publishing being a
relatively new venture by one particular scion of the family. The harshest
reviews of Butterfly were carried in the Sonzogno newspaper (Il Secolo).
Puccini was also not a favorite of La Scala management. Given his
prominence as a composer, it's surprising how few Puccini productions the
house offered while he was alive (six before Butterfly and nine after, for
a total of 16 during the period 1885-1924).
I'm rereading Carner's chapter on the Butterfly premiere now, and I see
that the case against the claque isn't quite as airtight as I had thought.
There is no "smoking gun". Rather, the conclusion depends on subjective
evaluation of the circumstantial evidence, and pretty much everyone who was
in a position to know -- both those who were there (eg, Ricordi) and
scholars who have studied the material since (eg, Carner, Ashbrook) -- have
reached the same conclusion. If anyone has made a serious case that the
bad reception was *not* engineered, I haven't seen it. With regard to the
circumstantial evidence, two facts (as reported by eyewitnesses) I find
significant are: (1) the booing began very early in the opera, before very
much of it had even been heard, and (2) the mood of the audience during
intermissions and after the show was mostly cheerful and self-satisfied.
Selections from two paragraphs from Carner[*]:
<< It is my conviction -- and other biographers have expressed themselves
to the same effect -- that the fiasco of the first _Madam Butterfly_ was
largely engineered. [...] There was more to the Milan fiasco than meets the
eye. True, documentary evidence for the real causes behind it is lacking --
even Puccini, as we shall see, confined himself to making only vague
allusions to them; yet it is safe to suggest that the scandal at La Scala
on that night of 17 February had all the appearance of having been the work
of a well organized claque, hired by Puccini's enemies and rivals to wreck
the performance with all means at its disposal -- an object in which they
had very nearly succeeded on the first night of _Tosca_ in Rome.>>
<< Though Puccini says he could not explain why all this was done to him,
the explanation is not far to seek. By his serried successes since _Manon
Lescaut_, he had become a world figure and thus an object of intense
jealousy on the part of his less fortunate confreres. He had, moreover,
kept himself apart from his fellow-composers (though the uncomplimentary
remarks he used to make about them in private remained no secret) -- "away
from all human contacts" -- and he had refused to curry favour with
influential persons, a trait we have already observed in his student days
at the Conservatoire. Such conduct was little calculated to render him
_persona grata_ in Milan high society. "There were people there (the
first-night of _Butterfly_) who for years had waited for the joy of laying
me low at whatever costs". For these people Puccini had grown sufficiently
fat on his ubiquitous successes to be now considered ripe for slaughter.
[...] >>
That is essentially Carner's conclusion. The reports on which he bases it
are described, quoted, and cited in the text.
mdl
(who had to look up "serried")
[*] Mosco Carner. Puccini: a Critical Biography. 1958.
Mark D. Lew
hima...@yahoo.co.uk (Himadri) wrote:
> And - please don't send out the lynch mobs! - I find both "La Boheme"
> and "Madama Butterfly" rather dull until the love duets at the end of
> Act 1. I'm not too taken by the second act of "La Boheme" either -
> although the rest of the opera is wonderful. And as for that
> orchestral interlude in "Butterfly" - what WAS Puccini thinking of?
Undoubtedly he was thinking of the famous scene from Belasco's play -- a
scenographic tour de force, in which no word was spoken for an
unprecedented 14 minutes during which an elaborate display of lighting and
scene effects depicted the passage of the night from sunset through
sunrise. As a playwright, Belasco is pretty much unrecognized today, but
he is still celebrated for his pioneering work in theatrical stage effects,
and the night vigil from Butterfly was the greatest achievement of his
career.
This is the scene that amazed Puccini when he saw the play, and more than
anything it inspired him to want to make it into an opera. For the sake of
this scene, he long resisted the idea of a second intermission, in spite of
his usual good sense on such questions.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
> Zauberflote : I just didn't like this for a long time, the music was ... I
> don't know, it just didn't have the usual Mozart sparkle and the German
> dialogue didn't help (I remember _hating_ the sound of spoken German, which I
> now really like). [....]
Listening to German dialogue?!?
> Tosca : Great first act curtain and incredible second act but the third act is
> usually a big anticlimax and I really have little patience for the character
> of Tosca who seems boring and annoying in the first act and deeply unaware of
> her surrounding and wrongheaded the rest of the time, stabbing Scarpia is the
> only interesting thing she does the whole damn opera. (and Cavaradossi is also
> rather annoying, from his enabling behavior with Tosca to his ham-fisted
> smugness and self-pity in the last act).
I like Puccini, particularly in his Giacosa-Illica collaborations, and
overall I'd have to say I prefer him even to Verdi. But one can't help
wondering how these characters -- particularly the tenor, but the others as
well -- would have turned out had Verdi written the opera. (He did express
interest in Sardou's play, but objected that he was too old to write
another opera.)
> Fliedermaus : I detested the whole thing the first time I heard it (more
> German dialogue)
?!?!?!?!
mdl so baffled that he is speechless
Mark D. Lew
Karen Mercedes <dal...@radix.net> wrote:
> Actually, my favourite aria from BOHEMIAN GIRL is the Gipsy Queen's
> original aria - Love smiles but to deceive - which was inexplicably
> replaced by the far less compelling Love forever past when the opera
> crossed the Atlantic.
I distinctly remember that I liked one but not the other, but for the life
of me I can't recall how either of them goes. I suspect that our tastes are
the same on this, but I can't say for sure.
The explication of the replacement probably has something to do with the
range. The Queen has several high notes in the duet (including a high C).
There seems to be some confusion on what sort of voice should be cast here.
The Novello score says soprano, and Schirmer copies that. On the other
hand, Kobbe calls her a contralto.
I don't know what the story is here, but it seems likely that the part was
tailored to match the casting.
mdl
michael farris
"Mark D. Lew" wrote:
> In article <3B5EA200...@amu.edu.pl>, m...@amu.edu.pl wrote:
>
> > Zauberflote : I just didn't like this for a long time, the music was ... I
> > don't know, it just didn't have the usual Mozart sparkle and the German
> > dialogue didn't help (I remember _hating_ the sound of spoken German, which I
> > now really like). [....]
>
> Listening to German dialogue?!?
you know, that stuff between the music in Zauberflote. I first heard an abridge
'Magic Flute' in English (sort of) on the old Met Opera of the Month series, then a
Met broadcast when I thought the German dialogue would never end, if I liked the
music better then, I wouldn't have minded the dialogue, but ... I liked Bergman's
staging for the most part but it didn't sell me on the whole package.
I have changed somewhat, now I wish that the German language Figaro I have on vinyl
somewhere (on Angle, I forget the conductor, but Berry, Rother(?)berger, Gueden,
Mathis and Prey sing) had dumped the recitative and used spoken dialogue instead.
It's still my favorite Figaro.
> > Fliedermaus : I detested the whole thing the first time I heard it (more
> > German dialogue)
>
> ?!?!?!?!
>
> mdl so baffled that he is speechless
Okay, the Fleidermaus I first heard was on London (I forget the personnel but I'm
sure Gueden was in there somewhere) and I was turned off by a) long stretches of
spoken German between the music (I was young then and couldn't imagine why someone
would want to speak that language, I like German now a lot, but I disliked the sound
of it then and on vinyl records there was no graceful way to cut it out)
I also disliked the "What a madcap, zany time we had recording this"-tone of the
libretto, that shouldn't prejudice me against the work, but it did (I was young
then).
-michael farris
Yorick Meefout
news:3B5EC0B9...@amu.edu.pl...
> I have changed somewhat, now I wish that the German language Figaro I have
on vinyl
> somewhere (on Angle, I forget the conductor, but Berry, Rother(?)berger,
Gueden,
> Mathis and Prey sing) had dumped the recitative and used spoken dialogue
instead.
> It's still my favorite Figaro.
>
Figaro in German? Naah.
How about Die Entfuehrung aus dem Serail, Stein der Weisen (partly Mozart),
or other Mozart operas originally written in German? Bastien und Bastienne,
Die Gaertnerin aus Liebe (Although I think La Finta Giardiniera is the
original), etc.
For me German is nice in an opera, because that way I can understand every
way word that is said and sung. Italian sounds much better though :)
Yorick Meefout.
Matthew B. Tepper
> Okay, the Fleidermaus I first heard was on London (I forget the
> personnel but I'm sure Gueden was in there somewhere) and I was turned
> off by a) long stretches of spoken German between the music (I was
> young then and couldn't imagine why someone would want to speak that
> language, I like German now a lot, but I disliked the sound of it then
> and on vinyl records there was no graceful way to cut it out) I also
> disliked the "What a madcap, zany time we had recording this"-tone of
> the libretto, that shouldn't prejudice me against the work, but it did
> (I was young then).
I like all kinds of comedy (or so I think), but I think the Frosch business
in "Fledermaus" is generally pretty tedious.
Karen Mercedes
long eluded me. I much prefer Strauss's other operettas, and frankly
prefer those of Lehar and Kalman to anything by Strauss.
Karen Mercedes
deceive" and "Bliss forever past" (I mis-stated the name of the latter in
my previous post) are comparable. The only real differences are (1) "Love
smiles" requires better breath management to tackle the longer phrases;
(2) "Love smiles" ends with a coloratura cadenza (not very difficult) that
may elude a voice that is totally unable to move.
The two recordings I've heard of the first aria have been by lyric mezzos;
interestingly, the older recording takes the aria at almost twice the
speed that the other does. I recently received a tape of a third
recording, but haven't yet had a chance to listen. Frankly, I'm hoping it
will have the alternate aria, if only because I have no recordings of
that.
K
Karen Mercedes
> For me German is nice in an opera, because that way I can understand every
> way word that is said and sung. Italian sounds much better though :)
This reminds me: the other night I tuned into Classic Arts Network in the
middle of an opera video - avant garde production, and melodic albeit
minimalist. But the most striking thing was the language - at first I
thought it might be one of the Eastern European languages I haven't heard
enough of to recognise on first hearing; then I heard a bit of romance
language, and thought perhaps "rumanian?". Then it dawned on me that what
I was seeing/hearing was a scene from Glass's SATYAGRAHA - and that the
language was, in fact, Sanskrit!
Which made me wonder: are there other operas out there with libretti (or
even single arias or ensembles) in "weird" languages - particularly "dead"
languages?
For example, I've never heard of an opera in Welsh, or Manx, or Breton, or
Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Similarly,
any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some other
language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
Karen Mercedes
david melnick
> are there other operas out there with libretti (or
> even single arias or ensembles) in "weird" languages - particularly "dead"
> languages?
>
> For example, I've never heard of an opera in Welsh, or Manx, or Breton, or
> Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Similarly,
> any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some other
> language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
>
> Karen Mercedes
This won't answer the question, but I sure would love to hear an opera in any of
the Celtic tongues. They surely must be the most beautiful languages in the
world when spoken aloud.
Ladino? It was my mother's native tongue, and hearing an actual opera in that
language would be a pleasure, too.
I've recited the Iliad with friends, experimenting with different intonations
for the accented syllables. I'd guess any composer who has heard ancient Greek
has been tempted to pursue the idea of writing in that gorgeous language, which,
after all, provided a good living for rhapsodes for centuries. (But would it
sell today? :-) )
Unfortunately, the Harmonia Mundi album of ancient Greek music is not the key to
unlock that treasure house. It's a little too musty-scholarly to stimulate the
imagination.
David
Matthew B. Tepper
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net:
> For example, I've never heard of an opera in Welsh, or Manx, or Breton,
> or Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
> Similarly, any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some
> other language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
I think Manos Kalomiris wrote at least one opera in Greek. I vaguely
recall reading about an opera in Gaelic, the Irish dialect thereof anyway.
And if I had a far better comprehension of Yiddish than I have, I would
absolutely *love* to write one comic and one tragic opera in that language
(and if I only had time enough in my life to do one, I'd pick the comedy).
Of course, there have been plenty of operas in Hungarian, Czech, Polish,
and other Eastern European languages.
barry schneider
from the group seems to come from drastic overexposure, swamping whatever
charms the operas provide. Your list sounds like 80% of the season for many
opera companies; no wonder we hunger for new thrills.
Here in LA, for example, I could live a happy life with no more scheduling
of Butterfly (though I think it might be one of the best operas for newbies,
especially young ones.).
Barry
"david melnick" <dmel...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B5D0E62...@pacbell.net...
Yorick Meefout
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
> Which made me wonder: are there other operas out there with libretti (or
> even single arias or ensembles) in "weird" languages - particularly "dead"
> languages?
It's not a dead language, but we'be bought the Swedish opera "Soliman II" by
Jospeh Martin Kraus a couple of months ago.
That was the first time I heard Swedish opera, but I like it :)
Szymanovski with his opera "Krol Roger" in Polish was also different. But I
liked it so much that I went to see it twice, and listen to it quite often.
The way the language sounds only adds up to the strange athmosphere of that
opera.
The aria "Digi Dagi" of Cola in Mozart's "Bastien und Bastienne" is so
exotic that no-ones know the language :)
Yorick Meefout.
david melnick
anti-Butterfly phase a few years ago. Now I'm a sucker for it again, though not
in the current S.F. production. I also love Varese (whose music owes a bit of a
debt to Butterfly, IMO) and wish he'd written a standard-rep opera. What am I
going to do???
David
Don Paolo
BigPaulie
Karen Mercedes <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
John Lynch
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
> ...
> And if I had a far better comprehension of Yiddish than I have, I would
> absolutely *love* to write one comic and one tragic opera in that language
> (and if I only had time enough in my life to do one, I'd pick the comedy).
>
Someone beat you to it years ago. The Windsor Theater in the Bronx was
a Yiddish house in the Forties, where regular performers were Molly
Picon and Menasha Skulnik. I once heard a broadcast of the theater's
production of H.M.S. Pinafore and would love to hear it again. The only
Yiddish in my record collection now is by Mickey Katz, a Jewish Spike
Jones, who did translations of Frankie Laine's great hits, Mule Train
and Die geschray fun der vilde kotchke. Also a version of Bibbidy Bobbidy
Boo,
which had the line, 'Ifn you're flickn there's nothink like chicken for the
baby,
the bubbe and you.'
JL
John Lynch
david melnick wrote:
> This won't answer the question, but I sure would love to hear an opera in any of
> the Celtic tongues. They surely must be the most beautiful languages in the
> world when spoken aloud.
>
One day at work we got in a Breton translation of a Welsh novel. "Oh, good,"
said a colleague, "now the whole world can read it!"
JL
Matthew B. Tepper
Matthew B. Tepper
> Yes. I think I'm going through my second childhood. I went through an
> anti-Butterfly phase a few years ago. Now I'm a sucker for it again,
> though not in the current S.F. production. I also love Varese (whose
> music owes a bit of a debt to Butterfly, IMO) and wish he'd written a
> standard-rep opera. What am I going to do???
I don't suppose you'd settle for _Joe's Garage_ by another, better-known
admirer of Varčse?
Matthew B. Tepper
> Yes. I think I'm going through my second childhood. I went through an
> anti-Butterfly phase a few years ago. Now I'm a sucker for it again,
> though not in the current S.F. production. I also love Varese (whose
> music owes a bit of a debt to Butterfly, IMO) and wish he'd written a
> standard-rep opera. What am I going to do???
I don't suppose you'd settle for _Joe's Garage_ by another, better-known
Matthew B. Tepper
Oh, opera or operettas *in translation* to Yiddish are certainly nothing
new. I have even heard tell of a Yiddish version of "The Mikado." But an
*original opera* composed to a Yiddish text -- that might be a new thing!
Mark D. Lew
> Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Similarly,
> any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some other
> language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
Not quite an opera, but the weirdest language I've ever sung in is the
Demonic tongue in one of the choruses in Berlioz's Damnation of Faust.
In non-operatic choral music, I've sung in a lot of obscure languages --
largely because one of the choruses I used to sing with had an annual
"international" concert. Our repertoire there included a boisterous Zulu
hymn (complete with tongue clicks), a really gorgeous Latvian chorus ("Kas
Tie Tadi") by Steven Sametz, and a couple of nice pieces in Euskara (aka
Basque) by Javi Busto. All of these were a capella. I also vaguely recall a
choral work in Esperanto by Lou Harrison, accompanied by gamelan orchestra.
In the semi-standard symphonic rep, there's Hebrew in Bernstein's
Chichester Psalms and Schönberg's Escape from Warsaw; and Old Church
Slavonic in Janacek's Glagolitic Mass. I believe Arvo Part has written
some large choruses in Estonian, though I've never sung them.
At SFO they're currently rehearsing an Armenian work for the fall season.
Chukhadjian, I think, but not sure. Sounds like this is an offshoot of
Lotfi's passion for Russian opera. I was hoping to hear something exotic,
or at least something quasi-Russian, but my friend in the chorus says to
her it sounds like mediocre Verdi-wannabe.
I once sang in a concert version of Boughton's Immortal Hour. It definitely
had a Gaelic feel, but I don't think there was any Gaelic text (though the
baritone's name is "Eochaidh", as Gaelic a name as one can imagine). It's a
nice piece, though parts of it have a Wagnerian pace which cry out for an
editor. Lots of good choruses, which always scores big with me. The
libretto was by that "Fiona McLeod" fellow, so perhaps it's more
faux-Gaelic than genuine.
I have little doubt that some enthusiastic Trekker has composed opera in
Klingon, but then I guess that doesn't qualify as a language "unassociated
with Opera"....
mdl
Has! Has! Astaroth!
REG
"Mark D. Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
Mark D. Lew
Tepper) wrote:
> I think Manos Kalomiris wrote at least one opera in Greek.
More than one. You're probably thinking of To Dakhtiliditis Manas
(Mother's Ring), which I'm pretty sure has been recorded.
> Of course, there have been plenty of operas in Hungarian, Czech, Polish,
> and other Eastern European languages.
Finnish, too. Opera is a popular form among contemporary Finnish composers,
Sallinen being the most prominent.
mdl
REG
if it wasn't out of print, has the oltrano (soprano assoluta to you-all) go
through Tristan and Isolde and start singing the Liebstod in Welsh (or old
Welsh - I can't find the book now).
"david melnick" <dmel...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B5F1FEA...@pacbell.net...
REG
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
Mark D. Lew
> You can be baffled at me, too - the alleged charm of DIE FLEDERMAUS has
> long eluded me. I much prefer Strauss's other operettas, and frankly
> prefer those of Lehar and Kalman to anything by Strauss.
I think you misunderstood me. I have no strong opinion either way on
FLEDERMAUS. What baffles me is the idea of non-German-speakers wanting to
sit through German dialogue. (We started to discuss this on the "Madonna"
thread before it got sidetracked by the whole Europe-is-a-continent issue.)
If you're in Germany, or somewhere else where a lot of German is spoken,
then sure it makes sense. But in a production in America? Or on recording?
I just don't get it. Seems to me that you have to really love an opera if
you can enjoy several minutes of incomprehensible spoken dialogue -- sort
of like new parents who adore their infant so much that even his spit-up is
lovable. I'm a big fan of Offenbach, but if I'm listening to a recording
I'm sure going to fast-forward through the French dialogue. I'm sure it's
funny if you understand it, but if you don't, what's the point?
--
In article <3B5EC0B9...@amu.edu.pl>, m...@amu.edu.pl wrote:
> you know, that stuff between the music in Zauberflote. I first heard an
abridge
> 'Magic Flute' in English (sort of) on the old Met Opera of the Month
series, then a
> Met broadcast when I thought the German dialogue would never end [...]
Yes, I do know. What baffles me is that the Met would broadcast it, not
that it would bore you. Of course it bores you.
mdl
Matthew B. Tepper
news:RrG77.17821$135.4...@typhoon.we.rr.com:
> I don't believe you need to feel guilty about these. Most of the
> distress from the group seems to come from drastic overexposure,
> swamping whatever charms the operas provide. Your list sounds like 80%
> of the season for many opera companies; no wonder we hunger for new
> thrills.
>
> Here in LA, for example, I could live a happy life with no more
> scheduling of Butterfly (though I think it might be one of the best
> operas for newbies, especially young ones.).
The L.A. Opera *has* made itself a reputation with the too-frequent
stagings of this work, hasn't it? What I wouldn't give for a production
of, say, _Svanda Dudak_ or _Of Mice and Men_!
Mike Richter
> This reminds me: the other night I tuned into Classic Arts Network in the
> middle of an opera video - avant garde production, and melodic albeit
> minimalist. But the most striking thing was the language - at first I
> thought it might be one of the Eastern European languages I haven't heard
> enough of to recognise on first hearing; then I heard a bit of romance
> language, and thought perhaps "rumanian?". Then it dawned on me that what
> I was seeing/hearing was a scene from Glass's SATYAGRAHA - and that the
> language was, in fact, Sanskrit!
>
> Which made me wonder: are there other operas out there with libretti (or
> even single arias or ensembles) in "weird" languages - particularly "dead"
> languages?
>
> For example, I've never heard of an opera in Welsh, or Manx, or Breton, or
> Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Similarly,
> any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some other
> language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
First, a language "weird" to one may be quite reasonable to another
listener. Second, there are performances of operas composed in other
languages into the lingua franca of the country in which they are
performed. There is, for example, an Aida in Arabic; I very much enjoy
several operas sung in Hungarian and Bulgarian.
Another factor is that "opera" as we know it is a form which is not
necessarily a part of the local tradition in other lands. Thus, China
has a rich history of opera, but we would not readily classify the works
with that word in the West. Japan is developing a form which may bridge
the gap; the recent "Faraway Sail" is a work I find fascinating and
"Joruri" was a notable step in Saint Louis some years ago. (The former
has been telecast in Japan and is due for a new production soon. Joruri
is available from Dreamlife on VHS and LaserDisc.)
Complete operas in Armenian (Anush, David Beg) and in Swedish (Aniara)
may fit your specifications and have been published by major companies.
"I quattri rusteghi" is in heavy Italian dialect, certainly "weird" for
one expecting the Tuscan form. We would probably have operas in
Portugese if Gomes had not been based in Italy; certainly, his subjects
and idioms are more Brazilian than Italian. I believe that that is not a
unique case and that composers interested in opera often find other
lands and languages than their own more congenial.
What we often get in Western opera is a tune or more intended to
represent the exotic sound of the land of the character; one need go no
farther than "Madama Butterfly" for examples, though whether the English
or the Japanese is "weird" will definitely depend on the listener.
Andre Edouard
Near Cascades Pool.
Mickey Katz begat Joel Grey who begat Jeniffer Grey......
And you thought he was only proficient in Yiddish.
Gevalt!!
A E O J
david melnick
> > What am I going to do???
>
> I don't suppose you'd settle for _Joe's Garage_ by another, better-known
> admirer of Varčse?
I'm waiting for Act IV.*
David
*Editor's note: Melnick bluffeth. He never heard Act I, II or III.
Andre Edouard
theatre aficionado has researched the very active yiddish theatre mileu,
on 14th St. in New York, the first decades of the 20th century for
example.
Surely one opera must have emerged from this whirlpool of creative
energy.
The ever lovely Michael Tilson-Thomas' grandfather was Boris
Thomashevsky,
who some feel was the greatest of yiddish actors. I wouldn't know, I'm
not _that_ old.
A famous Thomashevsky story [they're legion] concerns a young woman
carrying a baby who approached Thomashevsky in his dressing room.
YW: Thomashevsky, this is your baby.
BT: Here's two tickets
YW: But, we need bread.
BT: Here's two tickets.
YW: But we need bread.
BT: Bread? You should have fucked a baker.
david melnick
was a baritone) in the Yiddish Theater in Chicago until my
great-grandmother dragged my grandmother to the theater
one day, pointed to my grandfather as he was acting on stage
and said: "See what he's doing? He's making love to another woman!" That was the
end of my grandfather's theatrical career.
Duvid
Mike Richter
>
> My grandfather, Herman Michael Melnick, acted and sang (he
> was a baritone) in the Yiddish Theater in Chicago until my
> great-grandmother dragged my grandmother to the theater
> one day, pointed to my grandfather as he was acting on stage
> and said: "See what he's doing? He's making love to another woman!" That was the
> end of my grandfather's theatrical career.
I have posted at my WWW site in the past one of my favorite performances
of the Largo al Factotum - Josef Winogradoff singing in Yiddish. "Maedl"
conveys the message in ways that "fanciulla" never will. <G>
John Lynch
Andre Edouard wrote:
> Windsor Theatre.....170th and Jerome?
> Near Cascades Pool.
> Mickey Katz begat Joel Grey who begat Jeniffer Grey......
> And you thought he was only proficient in Yiddish.
> Gevalt!!
> A E O J
>
I seem to recall that it was on Fordham Road on the way to the Zoo.
JL
dtritter
bandleader/catskills performer, spawned a great ornament to the broadway
stage and films, joel grey, whose daughter is a well known film actress.
dft
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Andre Edouard
Windsor Theatre is on Fordham, at the fork intersection with I remember
not which street. It is/was within easy walking distance of Poe Park.
Andre
Matthew B. Tepper
> for those of you not dans le vrai, mickey katz, a genuinely funny
> bandleader/catskills performer, spawned a great ornament to the broadway
> stage and films, joel grey, whose daughter is a well known film actress.
I Did Not Know That! My parents always spoke highly of him when I was a
widdle kid. My mother also spoke of her uncle, Ludwig Satz, a tummler in
the Yiddish theater (and much respected by Sid Caesar and Mel Brooks). It
is after seeing him in a film that I wondered about Yiddish opera.
david melnick
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> I Did Not Know That!
You're forgiven.
George Partlow
> In non-operatic choral music, I've sung in a lot of obscure languages --
> largely because one of the choruses I used to sing with had an annual
> "international" concert. Our repertoire there included a boisterous Zulu
> hymn (complete with tongue clicks), a really gorgeous Latvian chorus ("Kas
> Tie Tadi") by Steven Sametz, and a couple of nice pieces in Euskara (aka
> Basque) by Javi Busto. All of these were a capella. I also vaguely recall a
> choral work in Esperanto by Lou Harrison, accompanied by gamelan orchestra.
It's "La Koro Sutro" ("The 'Heart' Sutra"), a setting of a well-known
(in Buddhist circles!) Buddhist scripture commissioned by some friends
of mine (alas now both dead) from San Francisco, Bill and Cathy
Schultz. The CD I have of it also has toher works for gamelan by Lou.
And isn't "Kas Tie Tadi" lovely? We used to sing it in the Yale
Russian Chorus (probably they still do; living in Alaska I simply
don't get to sing with them any more) and I always loved it.
Have you ever sung any Georgian (Kartvelo)? "Morbis Aragvi" would
probably be to your taste if you like "kas Tie Tadi"...
George (who, since he speaks Esperanto, doesn't think of it as
particularly weird at all, any more than Ladysmith Black Mambazo
thinks Xhosa is weird...)
Karen Mercedes
native speaker would want to hear an opera in a foreign language rather
than their own - spoken dialogue, sung recits, arias, and all.
Skip
ridiculous in a language you speak...
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101072...@saltmine.radix.net...
Mark D. Lew
pricer...@my-deja.com (George Partlow) wrote:
> It's "La Koro Sutro" ("The 'Heart' Sutra"), a setting of a well-known
> (in Buddhist circles!) Buddhist scripture commissioned by some friends
> of mine (alas now both dead) from San Francisco, Bill and Cathy
> Schultz. The CD I have of it also has toher works for gamelan by Lou.
Yes, that's the one. It was many years ago....
> And isn't "Kas Tie Tadi" lovely? We used to sing it in the Yale
> Russian Chorus (probably they still do; living in Alaska I simply
> don't get to sing with them any more) and I always loved it.
Absolutely exquisite. Possibly the most beautiful choral work I've ever
experienced, and I've known thousands.
> Have you ever sung any Georgian (Kartvelo)? "Morbis Aragvi" would
> probably be to your taste if you like "kas Tie Tadi"...
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. If you happen to have a copy of the music
appropriate for sending, please email me.
mdl
John Lynch
JL
Mark D. Lew
> One could take your question further, and ask why anyone who's not a
> native speaker would want to hear an opera in a foreign language rather
> than their own - spoken dialogue, sung recits, arias, and all.
One could -- and indeed we did in the other thread. I'm more partial to
opera in the language of the audience than most in this group, but at the
same time I see several good reasons to leave it untranslated. But all of
these reasons are closely related to the music. For recitatives they are
somewhat weaker, and for dialogue they fade to almost nothing.
mdl
Andre Edouard
Matron.
AEOJ
REG
and if it's been of use to you at all.
"George Partlow" <pricer...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:680335c5.01072...@posting.google.com...
Karen Mercedes
George Murnu
>
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Yorick Meefout wrote:
>
> > For me German is nice in an opera, because that way I can understand every
> > way word that is said and sung. Italian sounds much better though :)
>
> This reminds me: the other night I tuned into Classic Arts Network in the
> middle of an opera video - avant garde production, and melodic albeit
> minimalist. But the most striking thing was the language - at first I
> thought it might be one of the Eastern European languages I haven't heard
> enough of to recognise on first hearing; then I heard a bit of romance
> language, and thought perhaps "rumanian?". Then it dawned on me that what
> I was seeing/hearing was a scene from Glass's SATYAGRAHA - and that the
> language was, in fact, Sanskrit!
>
> Which made me wonder: are there other operas out there with libretti (or
> even single arias or ensembles) in "weird" languages - particularly "dead"
> languages?
>
> For example, I've never heard of an opera in Welsh, or Manx, or Breton, or
> Cornish, or Gaelic - but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Similarly,
> any operas in Aramaic, or Ancient Greek, or Ladino - or some other
> language equally unassociated with Opera (usually)?
>
Isn't Gotovac's Ero der Schelm in Croat?
Regards,
George
( who is curious to hear the opera after listening to the Kolo )
Yorick Meefout
"George Murnu" <gmu...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3B60F0...@erols.com...
> Isn't Gotovac's Ero der Schelm in Croat?
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> ( who is curious to hear the opera after listening to the Kolo )
Can I have some more info on that? I'm leaving for Croatia this Sunday.
By the way does anyonehave any info on the quality of the various Opera and
classical music festivals in Croatia?
(E.G. is it worth the drive for me to go to Pula to see a few opera's?)
Thanks,
Yorick.