Craigslist post for Jazz guitar and an answer. (not from me but on point)
guitarannie
Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
Reply to: comm-vdvdf...@craigslist.org [Errors when replying
to ads?]
I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
Location: Scottsdale
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
commercial interests
And the answer -
Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
Reply to: comm-mxhmc...@craigslist.org [Errors when replying
to ads?]
Wow, does this "major retailer" have any other jobs we may want to do
for free? I've got some trail mix in the cupboard and drink boxes in
the fridge...can I cater for your "VIPs"? Are they opening a new
store? Maybe the construction guys, plumbers, electricians can pitch
in their time for free? How about I come over and work the register
for a few hours for the "great exposure".
Even the most average jazz musician has spent years learning and
practicing their instrument and probably thousands of dollars
investing their instruments and gear. What could possibly be your
basis for asking them to perform for your event for free? I sure hope
some poor chump does accept your "invite" and blows chunks all over
your event, both musically and physically.
Lord Valve
Absolutely right.
I can't count the times I've been somewhere and
mentioned I was a keyboard player and then had
someone say, "Hey, there's a piano - play something
for us!" It's kinda like having someone tell you they're
a bricklayer and then you saying (not that you'd even
dream of saying) "Hey, there's a pile of bricks over
there - build us a barbecue pit!"
*Never* work for free. I certainly don't.
Lord Valve
Organist
joe montgomery
> *Never* work for free. I certainly don't.
>
> Lord Valve
> Organist
Unfortunately, many many others do not share this sentiment. The Major
Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will jump at
the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and just wants
to play for fun...
I will never play out for free either. Does this mean I will never
play out again???
JM, sigh.
TD
> Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
> grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
> pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
> your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
>
> Location: Scottsdale
> it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
> commercial interests
>
> And the answer -
>
> Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> Wow, does this "major retailer" have any other jobs we may want to do
> for free? I've got some trail mix in the cupboard and drink boxes in
> the fridge...can I cater for your "VIPs"? Are they opening a new
> store? Maybe the construction guys, plumbers, electricians can pitch
> in their time for free? How about I come over and work the register
> for a few hours for the "great exposure".
>
> Even the most average jazz musician has spent years learning and
> practicing their instrument and probably thousands of dollars
> investing their instruments and gear. What could possibly be your
> basis for asking them to perform for your event for free? I sure hope
> some poor chump does accept your "invite" and blows chunks all over
> your event, both musically and physically.
Good on you dear. I didn't know you still have the Klan alive and well
in Arizona. Sounds like something a Klansman would write. Even "Kudo."
Is that only half a praise 'cause weez just musicians and we are nor
worthy of pay? We are not even worthy of kudos?
-TD
matt
> Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will jump at
> the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and just wants
> to play for fun...
agreed.
add a few categories:
1. the 'blues doctor' or 'blues lawyer' that has a killer paying day
job, killer gear, very little soul and a desire to play out (and a
lack of respect for the musicians that make a living in their town).
2. school groups.
...this is a mixed bag because ed. is great but I where I live I have
to compete with kid combos and kid big bands that will play for
nothing!
how do we deal with this?
Stay positive (unlike the response to the ad - they are not leaving
any room for a positive response)
and make a good argument to these people (like some of the ad, just
without the snarkiness).
Tim McNamara
<8410dc66-a3c4-41d8...@v11g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
matt <matelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
In article
<698ce2a2-e298-4741...@j35g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
joe montgomery <mejoemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 15, 2:52ápm, Lord Valve <detri...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > *Never* work for free. áI certainly don't.
> >
> > Lord Valve Organist
>
> Major Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will
> jump at the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and
> just wants to play for fun...
>
> play out again???
> > Unfortunately, many many others do not share this sentiment. The
> > Major Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will
> > jump at the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and
> > just wants to play for fun...
>
> agreed.
> add a few categories:
> 1. the 'blues doctor' or 'blues lawyer' that has a killer paying day
> job, killer gear, very little soul and a desire to play out (and a
> lack of respect for the musicians that make a living in their town).
Lots of bands in all genres of music are exactly these folks, dude.
Some of them have lots of soul. Some don't. To my observation this
applies to people who fancy themselves as professional musicians.
> 2. school groups.
> ...this is a mixed bag because ed. is great but I where I live I have
> to compete with kid combos and kid big bands that will play for
> nothing!
If you're good enough to get paid, figure out how to make that point to
your prospective hirers.
> how do we deal with this?
> Stay positive (unlike the response to the ad - they are not leaving
> any room for a positive response)
> and make a good argument to these people (like some of the ad, just
> without the snarkiness).
Yep.
My band includes a paralegal, a doctor, a retired biologist, a
psychologist, a contractor and an instrument repair man. We don't get
paid for at least half our gigs- we do them as fundraisers for charity
(food shelf, community service center, etc.) and donate whatever we
collect. These gigs are at places that professional musicians wouldn't
play anyway, since there would never be dinero on offer.
IMHO music as a profession for all but a few musicians is simply going
away- especially in jazz. This is not a new trend and in jazz began in
the 1950s when the big band scene faded away. When I go out to hear
local musicians in any genre- rock, jazz, blues, etc.- a crowd of 20
people there to actually listen to the music is a fairly big crowd. Can
you make a living playing to 20 people two or three times a week?
Keep your day job. In another decade there will be almost no jazz
musicians left for whom music performance is their primary source of
income.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ő to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
mikeo
>
> I can't count the times I've been somewhere and
> mentioned I was a keyboard player and then had
> someone say, "Hey, there's a piano - play something
> for us!" It's kinda like having someone tell you they're
> a bricklayer and then you saying (not that you'd even
> dream of saying) "Hey, there's a pile of bricks over
> there - build us a barbecue pit!"
>
> *Never* work for free. I certainly don't.
>
> Lord Valve
>
> - Show quoted text -
similar thing used to happen to my gynecologist friend all the time...
mikeo
job category. Surely, if we can't play, we won't be displacing any
paying gigs for the full time musicians, right? I feel I have every
right to try to find paying gigs to support my love of music, though.
I try not to play for free out of respect for the art, but should i
feel guilty if i get hired for jobs that may have otherwise gone to a
career player??? what's the general feeling on this?? And isnt
everyone an amateur until they become a pro? What I mean is at what
point does playing for free begin to impact those hard working
musicians trying to make a living?
We live in an age where anyone with an iPhone can DJ an event
Lord Valve
Nonsense.
LV
Tim McNamara
<b05f5e32-91cf-4e30...@f31g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
mikeo <mike...@comcast.net> wrote:
We (my band) tries to not take gigs that would otherwise go to musicians
trying to make a living, although that is not 100% possible.
> We live in an age where anyone with an iPhone can DJ an event
Yep. That is pretty much the real competition.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
Tim McNamara
<08b502e6-ec4a-4d86...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
matt <matelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> did y'all miss the quotes?
> 'blues doctor' and 'blues lawyer'
> they were there for a reason.
> I was defining my own term with the characteristics I described.
> If I meant all lawyer and doctors that played blues I would have said
> it.
> Have fun attacking straw man arguments.
Thanks for clearing that up. <plonk>
Tim
"I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you! "
Looks like it was written by some talent scout that will coffer some
good money off the tunes of the slaves.
Mitch
> Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
> grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
> pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
> your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
>
> Location: Scottsdale
> it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
> commercial interests
>
> And the answer -
>
> Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> Wow, does this "major retailer" have any other jobs we may want to do
> for free? I've got some trail mix in the cupboard and drink boxes in
> the fridge...can I cater for your "VIPs"? Are they opening a new
> store? Maybe the construction guys, plumbers, electricians can pitch
> in their time for free? How about I come over and work the register
> for a few hours for the "great exposure".
>
> Even the most average jazz musician has spent years learning and
> practicing their instrument and probably thousands of dollars
> investing their instruments and gear. What could possibly be your
> basis for asking them to perform for your event for free? I sure hope
> some poor chump does accept your "invite" and blows chunks all over
> your event, both musically and physically.
We all get these kind of offers that would never be requested of
people in another professions. I usually try to politely enlighten
them, but they often just don't get it.. For instance, I was once
asked if I knew of any bands who would play at a major fashion event
at a hotel for free. After the person answered that they were paying
for the flowers, publicity, food, etc, I asked why the band should
play for free. She responded that it would be "good exposure." I
explained about our many expenses, our time, talent, education et al,
and she again replied "But it would be good exposure." I'm afraid
that's the impression of us many have, and, unfortunately they
probably found someone to do it.
Hmmmm...Maybe I'll try that approach the next time I need my car
fixed, or dental work done.
Mitch
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Humor.
-TD
Lord Valve
Well OK then. ;-)
LV
Tom Walls
>
> We all get these kind of offers that would never be requested of
> people in another professions. I usually try to politely enlighten
> them, but they often just don't get it.. For instance, I was once
> asked if I knew of any bands who would play at a major fashion event
> at a hotel for free. After the person answered that they were paying
> for the flowers, publicity, food, etc, I asked why the band should
> play for free. She responded that it would be "good exposure." I
> explained about our many expenses, our time, talent, education et al,
> and she again replied "But it would be good exposure." I'm afraid
> that's the impression of us many have, and, unfortunately they
> probably found someone to do it.
> Hmmmm...Maybe I'll try that approach the next time I need my car
> fixed, or dental work done.
> Mitch
Aye. The exposure of non-paying jobs leads to more non-paying jobs.
andy-uk
tell them you are going to do it for 3hrs unless they pay you.
TD
To a professional, the word "exposure" used in the manner of the
Craiglisting quest, is little less than on par with shear denigration.
Often best to walk away from exposure.
-TD
Tim
No, that's a misconception. it gives you more 'exposure' to non-paying
jobs.
?:^ )
rlemos...@gmail.com
> Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
> grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
> pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
> your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
>
> Location: Scottsdale
> it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
> commercial interests
>
> And the answer -
>
> Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
> Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
> to ads?]
>
> Wow, does this "major retailer" have any other jobs we may want to do
> for free? I've got some trail mix in the cupboard and drink boxes in
> the fridge...can I cater for your "VIPs"? Are they opening a new
> store? Maybe the construction guys, plumbers, electricians can pitch
> in their time for free? How about I come over and work the register
> for a few hours for the "great exposure".
>
> Even the most average jazz musician has spent years learning and
> practicing their instrument and probably thousands of dollars
> investing their instruments and gear. What could possibly be your
> basis for asking them to perform for your event for free? I sure hope
> some poor chump does accept your "invite" and blows chunks all over
> your event, both musically and physically.
Hello everybody, My stock response is always "You can die of
exposure!".
Ron
Mitch
wrote:
'Die of starvation, anyway! Those gigs for "exposure" generally just
lead to more non-paying gigs for "exposure." And it makes it more
difficult for other musicians to make a living, including themselves.
I know we all enjoy playing, but we should get compensated for our
time, expense, and ability, the same a professional in any other
profession. It's amazing how important people consider the music is
to their event, yet how quickly they often go for this "exposure"
angle.
Mitch
eric s
depends where you are in your career. in any of the relatively
attractive professions, there are people working for free as interns.
Its a supply and demand thing. I work in a museum and taught for
years in a graduate museum studies program. I get called all the time
for internships, and if we can pay carfare (literally, buying them a
metro card), thats considered a good deal for the intern. If they do
a great job, then they get the attention of regular professionals and
have a shot at a regular gig, or at least a letter of reference and a
line on their resume. I know the same is true in everything from
fashion to journalism to law. Its the way it is.
In this case, playing the date gives you a better shot at getting a
paying gig than not playing the date and being pissed off. OTOH, I
wouldn't do it since I am not trying to build a performing career.
e
Mitch
I wouldn't be pissed off...i just wouldn't do it. Because if I did it
and felt taken advantage of, then I'd get pissed (mainly at myself).
Mitch
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
My Shrink gives me all kinds of advice. Sometimes she tries to give me
advice having to do with my profession. She lives in an Ivory Tower. I
listen to her, but I never take her advice.
-TD
Joe Finn
news:85119347-225b-4636...@v33g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
I don't think any experienced players would want to do something like this.
They may get some novice players to volunteer their services though.
It reminds me of a situation I heard about though. There was a restaurant
that had a little trio thing every week when a guy came in and offered to
play the gig for free on piano. The establishment took him up on his offer
and the trio was fired. It turns out that the amateur pianist is a retired
orthodontist or something. That's pretty much what he sounds like too; just
gawdawfull, simply dreadful.
I wish people who perform for free would consider the effect this has on
working musicians and the marketplace in general. I'm not holding my breath
waiting for this to happen though. Hobbyists are going to do what they are
going to do. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
Tim McNamara
<10c45721-37d6-46bf...@a11g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
"rle...@calstatela.edu" <rlemos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody, My stock response is always "You can die of
> exposure!".
Heh! I like that one.
Mark Guest
Good one. I say that I have my own dirty raincoat, and I can expose
myself wherever and whenever... (I usually say this to myself, though)
Tom Walls
>
> Good one. I say that I have my own dirty raincoat, and I can expose
> myself wherever and whenever... (I usually say this to myself, though)
I heard that about you.
Greger Hoel
Mark and his 'halfling'.
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
unknownguitarplayer
Here's a modest proposal. Let's assume that this is a real high-
falutin' event, and not a kielbasa party in someone's basement.
Provide your services at no charge using the same model that software
companies now use to provide free or low-cost apps. The free version
is stuffed with ads. You pay more to get a version without
advertising.
Show up at the gig and play the best you can, but put up a huge sign
that says something like
MUSIC DONATED BY THE NAIROBI TRIO
555-555-5555
www.nairobitrio.com
Maybe even wear coats or shirts with the same logo. When the
horrified hosts ask you to remove the sign, you explain that this is
how we always guarantee "exposure" at non-paying engagements. We''re
always happy to remove the sign when we receive our standard fee.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Excellent alternative.
-TD
Tim McNamara
<5ec1f140-5169-4f32...@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
unknownguitarplayer <unknowngu...@gmail.com> wrote:
I like it!
Chickenhead
promise a killer group, offer to take care of the PA and some wireless mics,
dress in tuxedos, offer to MC, etc.
. . . and not show up.
"guitarannie" wrote in message
news:85119347-225b-4636...@v33g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
Reply to: comm-vdvdf...@craigslist.org [Errors when replying
Chickenhead
Maybe get 'em up dancing and then stop the tune in the middle for a few
commercial announcements.
"unknownguitarplayer" wrote in message
news:5ec1f140-5169-4f32...@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
Greger Hoel
<drthoma...@gmail.com>:
> On Apr 18, 3:49 pm, "Chickenhead"
> <BLAHkurtshBLAHapiroB...@NOSPAMhotmTHANKYOUail.com> wrote:
>> I've always thought it would be fun to commit to something like that,
>> promise a killer group, offer to take care of the PA and some wireless
>> mics,
>> dress in tuxedos, offer to MC, etc.
>>
>> . . . and not show up.
>
> Or, do show up, but play the most out stuff you can think of, while
> wearing nothing but a bright red sock on your cock. For the exposure.
And hope no one is 'courteous' enough to pull it off.
Tim McNamara
<40c4474f-68d6-471e...@18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
thomas <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 3:49 pm, "Chickenhead"
> <BLAHkurtshBLAHapiroB...@NOSPAMhotmTHANKYOUail.com> wrote:
> > I've always thought it would be fun to commit to something like
> > that, promise a killer group, offer to take care of the PA and some
> > wireless mics, dress in tuxedos, offer to MC, etc.
> >
> > . . . and not show up.
>
> Or, do show up, but play the most out stuff you can think of, while
> wearing nothing but a bright red sock on your cock. For the exposure.
"Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to our tribute to Sun Ra."
Mitch
> "guitarannie" <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:85119347-225b-4636...@v33g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
> > Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
> > to ads?]
>
> > I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
> > grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
> > pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
> > your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
>
> > Location: Scottsdale
> > it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
> > commercial interests
>
> > And the answer -
>
> > Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
> > Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
'Got tons of these stories. Here's one; A friend of mine sent a
competent "hobbyist" pianist to sub for her regular piano/bass duo
gig. He showed up to play alone, because he couldn't solo on tunes
very well, etc. When she returned the following week her duo gig was
now a solo gig, and for half of the pay (The owner felt he could hire
one musician and cut the expense by 50%. Needless to say, that sub
took over the gig, and in a few weeks the place eliminated music
entirely.
Mitch
unknownguitarplayer
Yeah Kurt, commercial announcements for sure. Look at it as a business
situation. You're not getting paid for your time, but you're
maximizing the exposure opportunity (e.g. via signs, videos, logos,
announcements etc.) in anticipation of possible future revenue, upshot
being that you're still not making any money. One possible way to
"monetize" (business types love that word) the situation would be to
sell some of the exposure opportunity that has been created to other
interested parties. You could cast a wide net for customers, but that
would be time consuming and largely ineffective. However, it should
be quite easy to sell prime ad space to the main competitors of the
"retailer" throwing the bash. In fact, the competition might be
willing to pay more to piss on the carpet of their rival than the
original gig would have paid.
When the horrified party planner sees the Fender logo at her Gibson
party and orders you to remove it (and stop the Fender video that's
playing on your mini-jumbotron, too), you can explain that "band gotta
eat too", and Fender was willing to pay generously for the
"exposure". When she offers to pay the original fee you quoted, you
can explain that Fender was willing to pay a premium for the exposure,
and you would be losing money by returning Fender's money and playing
for the original fee. Of course, if she were willing to make a
counteroffer....
TD
> On Apr 18, 3:49 pm, "Chickenhead"
>
> <BLAHkurtshBLAHapiroB...@NOSPAMhotmTHANKYOUail.com> wrote:
> > I've always thought it would be fun to commit to something like that,
> > promise a killer group, offer to take care of the PA and some wireless mics,
> > dress in tuxedos, offer to MC, etc.
>
> > . . . and not show up.
>
> wearing nothing but a bright red sock on your cock. For the exposure.
So, now we can utter "Cock-it-to-me?" Sounds like a bird in heat.
-TD
Joe Finn
news:e2898f9a-e22a-4b4d...@o26g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
The irony is rich.
Here's another one:
A hobbyist with deep pockets bankrolls a recording session. He considers
himself to be a composer so he records only his own material which one could
charitably refer to as weak. The rhythm section guys are all ringers and he
even brings in name soloists. He then brags about having played with these
names even though they would never call him for a gig in a million years.
....joe
Paul
> In article
> <8410dc66-a3c4-41d8-b105-939f2fcde...@v11g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In article
> <698ce2a2-e298-4741-98d0-4b6ea8f31...@j35g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
> joe montgomery <mejoemontgom...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 2:52 pm, Lord Valve <detri...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > > *Never* work for free. I certainly don't.
>
> > > Lord Valve Organist
>
> > Unfortunately, many many others do not share this sentiment. The
> > Major Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will
> > jump at the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and
> > just wants to play for fun...
>
> > I will never play out for free either. Does this mean I will never
> > play out again???
> > > Unfortunately, many many others do not share this sentiment. The
> > > Major Retailer will more than likely find a young musician who will
> > > jump at the "exposure" or an older person who has retired well and
> > > just wants to play for fun...
>
> > agreed.
> > add a few categories:
> > 1. the 'blues doctor' or 'blues lawyer' that has a killer paying day
> > job, killer gear, very little soul and a desire to play out (and a
> > lack of respect for the musicians that make a living in their town).
>
> Lots of bands in all genres of music are exactly these folks, dude.
>
> Some of them have lots of soul. Some don't. To my observation this
> applies to people who fancy themselves as professional musicians.
>
> > 2. school groups.
> > ...this is a mixed bag because ed. is great but I where I live I have
> > to compete with kid combos and kid big bands that will play for
> > nothing!
>
> If you're good enough to get paid, figure out how to make that point to
> your prospective hirers.
>
> > how do we deal with this?
> > Stay positive (unlike the response to the ad - they are not leaving
> > any room for a positive response)
> > and make a good argument to these people (like some of the ad, just
> > without the snarkiness).
>
> Yep.
>
> My band includes a paralegal, a doctor, a retired biologist, a
> psychologist, a contractor and an instrument repair man. We don't get
> paid for at least half our gigs- we do them as fundraisers for charity
> (food shelf, community service center, etc.) and donate whatever we
> collect. These gigs are at places that professional musicians wouldn't
> play anyway, since there would never be dinero on offer.
>
> IMHO music as a profession for all but a few musicians is simply going
> away- especially in jazz. This is not a new trend and in jazz began in
> the 1950s when the big band scene faded away. When I go out to hear
> local musicians in any genre- rock, jazz, blues, etc.- a crowd of 20
> people there to actually listen to the music is a fairly big crowd. Can
> you make a living playing to 20 people two or three times a week?
>
> Keep your day job. In another decade there will be almost no jazz
> musicians left for whom music performance is their primary source of
> income.
>
Sadly, music and art in general are not absolute necessities
like health care, food, housing, etc....and doing them for a
living is something of a luxury.
There are always musicians whose are lesser known than
others, who would do such free exposure gigs.
How many of the "professionals" here would do the Tonight Show
or Letterman for free?
Or if Pat Metheny came through your town, and needed
an opening act, but couldn't pay you?
I know these are just fantasies, but to someone who has
very few gigs, a free gig can be better than none. Just consider
it a free rehearsal hall for the band!
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Let us consider at least one more dimension: How many musicians ( who
make a *living* at music) will be displaced by the "few
giggers" (really hobbyists) who gladly play for free? How far does it
spiral downward into the abyss of messing things up all the more? A
free gig can be better than none? A free gig *is* none. Keep playing
for free, and let the squares continue into the 22nd century believing
that we are doing is immaterial (what we do is a toy).
-TD
guitarannie
I wouldn't do it. I don't think you would either but you do make a
point that some on this group would play the free gig.
Well those who would, you're a bunch of idiots. That's what garages
are for.
I did garage band for 6 months. Then I got hired to move to a small
town and be in the house band 5 nights a week.
When I came back to LA I went to musicians contact service. Since I
also played a bit of classical guitar I was approached by someone who
wanted to do recording but as a member of a band so no pay. To offset
that the leader got us a 5 night a week gig. It was union so I joined
the union.
Over the years the amount of musicians outgrew the number of places
and since they had - "very few gigs, a free gig can be better than
none. Just consider
it a free rehearsal hall for the band!" They would take free gigs
etc. So the lower priced and free musicians got the gigs. Now here in
the Phoenix area the band pays the club for the "Exposure" then has to
sell tickets.
I used to be a 3d Animator I got $1000 per week for a film. The next
year they offered $800 and I said no. Then they hired some people who
just wanted exposure and would do it for free. That brought the
average price down to $20.00 per hour. Then they outsourced to the
Koreans for $8.00 per hour.
So due to "Free" enterprise, the world has changed
Unions were created so people wouldn't be taken advantage of.
Since many of the Union ideals have become workplace law, most people
don't have any idea what it was like before unless they read up.
So with the new philosophy of feed the rich and work for them for
"Exposure!!", we are now returning to the gilded age and there will
be another "Shirt Waist Fire" and the pendulum will swing again.
Meaning our great grandchildren may have it pretty good until they
screw it all up.
Ignorance will out.
tom walls
Paul
Only an idiot, or an already established Superstar
wouldn't do The Tonight Show for free! I would freak out and
love it!
There are talented amateurs and semi-professionals, who
often have days jobs, or are retired, and they have the right to
do freebies as they wish.
Welcome to the laws of supply and demand. It maybe painful
for Americans, but if we are overpriced, so be it.
But watch even the Chinese wages go up soon! Just like the
Mexican wages did.
It's a fact that bands sometimes get PAID gigs from freebies.
It may not
happen often, but it's a fact. I don't make a habit of freebie gigs,
but playing music ain't exactly the same as plumbing or construction
or waste management.....people love making music for the sheer
love of it! Remember?
I suppose even a hooker would complain if her regular
John's wife started putting out in the bedroom again....
We snobby jazz musicians can learn something from the
crack dealers: the first crack rock is always free......
:)
guitarannie
>
> Only an idiot, or an already established Superstar
> wouldn't do The Tonight Show for free! I would freak out and
> love it!
>
> :)
I'm an idiot then. But consider this.
The Tonight Show sells Advertising Let's just say $1,000,000 per
minute.
It's a business. Maybe takes in 22 million a night. Because of people
like me, You would not be allowed to play for free. You would get at
the very least, minimum scale. You think that's wrong?
Please tell me what other business you would offer to undercut your
fellow human, who obviously values their time, in order to work there.
The Marines? Ticket taking? Shoveling paper from one desk to another?
Crap I had a Big band offer me more money that anyone else in the band
got if I would play again this year and ignore the fact the leader was
a racist.
It was going to be a secret. Then I told them that doing that was
unethical.
Play for free at a free event but if you play for free while everyone
else gets paid then I still don't get it
I'm surely an idiot.
But I can tell anyone this. I got paid gigs because I was good enough
that people were willing to pay to year me play. I guess I still am.
LOL definitely an idiot. A paid one.
Mark Guest
That was just Mardis Gras....
Mark Guest
I'm OK with being overpriced. I just wish the prices rose as fast as
the cost of living. Even half as fast would be an improvement. Half
fast economics?
Paul
> On Apr 19, 3:02 pm, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Only an idiot, or an already established Superstar
> > wouldn't do The Tonight Show for free! I would freak out and
> > love it!
>
> > :)
>
> I'm an idiot then. But consider this.
> The Tonight Show sells Advertising Let's just say $1,000,000 per
> minute.
> It's a business. Maybe takes in 22 million a night. Because of people
> like me, You would not be allowed to play for free. You would get at
> the very least, minimum scale. You think that's wrong?
>
> Please tell me what other business you would offer to undercut your
> fellow human, who obviously values their time, in order to work there.
> The Marines? Ticket taking? Shoveling paper from one desk to another?
>
As I've mentioned, making music is not the same as
digging a ditch! It's a hell of a lot more fun for most people.
I doubt that the few freebies the part-timers might
do really affects the whole Jazz market, which is pretty
weak anyways....
> Crap I had a Big band offer me more money that anyone else in the band
> got if I would play again this year and ignore the fact the leader was
> a racist.
> It was going to be a secret. Then I told them that doing that was
> unethical.
>
> Play for free at a free event but if you play for free while everyone
> else gets paid then I still don't get it
> I'm surely an idiot.
> But I can tell anyone this. I got paid gigs because I was good enough
> that people were willing to pay to year me play. I guess I still am.
> LOL definitely an idiot. A paid one.
I would bet most of the "professionals"
here would be overjoyed to play the Tonight Show
for free, if it ever would happen, but it won't, so
it's easy to say you would never do it.
I'm actually sort of glad I'm not a jaded
full-time "professional" actually.....money ruins the fun of
music, to some degree......
Bg
> often have days jobs, or are retired, and they have the right to
> do freebies as they wish.
>
for free or cheaper and put Them out of their dayjobs.
Bg
TD
I like that.
-TD
tom walls
>
> As I've mentioned, making music is not the same as
> digging a ditch! It's a hell of a lot more fun for most people.
>
If the only gig you can get is a non-paying one, it's time to get back
to the woodshed.
>
> I'm actually sort of glad I'm not a jaded
> full-time "professional" actually.....money ruins the fun of
> music, to some degree......
You don't need to take a gig to play. I play every day, and haven't
play a gig in years.
Paul
> On Apr 19, 9:56 pm, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, making music is not the same as
> > digging a ditch! It's a hell of a lot more fun for most people.
>
> If the only gig you can get is a non-paying one, it's time to get back
> to the woodshed.
>
I get paying gigs. I've played with some pros, and
both they and the audiences like my stuff.
And I don't do free gigs very often, as I like some
gas and food money, at least. But, if there is someone with less
experience than me, who perhaps is aspiring to become a pro one day,
then more power to them if they wanna exercise their live
chops, in a FREE rehearsal hall, in front of an audience.
But even a beginner ain't gonna play free all the time
for long, after they've lugged their gear a while! The only reason
starving musicians complain about a few non-paying gigs, is that
the market for live music sucks in general. And if you are
complaining about free gigs, perhaps it's your own career you need
to look at. I don't hear George Benson complaining about retired
dentists playing free gigs!
Full-time professionals forget that people create
art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or
not. And part of the psychic healing of Art is to have an audience
for that
Art. Yes, people love to show off......why not?
What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
TD
Man, they love to go for the trusty tangents whenever against the
wall. Don't they, Tom?
-TD
tom walls
> Full-time professionals forget that people create
> art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
> just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or
> not.
I think this is a straw man. Name a "full-time professional" who has
forgotten that people create art for its own sake and not only to make
money.
>
> What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
I would recommend that anyone donating their time for charity, make
sure that it's worth their while before committing. This is a good
example of what I mean by "non-paying jobs bring more non-paying
jobs". Once the local activists have your phone number, you'll be
hearing from them often.
Paul
> On Apr 20, 10:30 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Full-time professionals forget that people create
> > art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
> > just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or
> > not.
>
> I think this is a straw man. Name a "full-time professional" who has
> forgotten that people create art for its own sake and not only to make
> money.
>
Then there shouldn't be a big stink about someone doing a
freebie here and there. I've done free gigs for friend's parties
and had a blast....have I put anyone out of work? Not likely....
>
>
> > What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> > for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> > Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
>
> I would recommend that anyone donating their time for charity, make
> sure that it's worth their while before committing. This is a good
> example of what I mean by "non-paying jobs bring more non-paying
> jobs". Once the local activists have your phone number, you'll be
> hearing from them often.
And we are free to accept these charity gigs or not, based
on our situation. I've had FUN at these gigs, and if they keep
calling me, i'll go if I can.
Again, if you are worried about a few freebie gigs done by
non-professionals, I doubt you are a true, full-timer yourself.
Perhaps you need to supplement your income with some other
part-time job like bartending, or get some more guitar students.
Craigslist will always have amateurs and semi-pros, no doubt....
tom walls
> Then there shouldn't be a big stink about someone doing a
> freebie here and there. I've done free gigs for friend's parties
> and had a blast....have I put anyone out of work? Not likely....
You didn't put anyone out of work because this was not a gig; it was
you playing guitar in your buddy's living room.
>
> And we are free to accept these charity gigs or not, based
> on our situation. I've had FUN at these gigs, and if they keep
> calling me, i'll go if I can.
>
Knock yourself out.
> Again, if you are worried about a few freebie gigs done by
> non-professionals, I doubt you are a true, full-timer yourself.
> Perhaps you need to supplement your income with some other
> part-time job like bartending, or get some more guitar students.
I'm sure the professionals among us really appreciate the advice.
Paul
> On Apr 20, 11:46 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Then there shouldn't be a big stink about someone doing a
> > freebie here and there. I've done free gigs for friend's parties
> > and had a blast....have I put anyone out of work? Not likely....
>
> You didn't put anyone out of work because this was not a gig; it was
> you playing guitar in your buddy's living room.
>
Then technically, any freebie show isn't a real gig
either, and taking these shows doesn't put anyone out of
work. If there is nothing in someone's budget to hire
a band, and they can only offer a FREE rehearsal space
to a band, so be it.
>
>
> > And we are free to accept these charity gigs or not, based
> > on our situation. I've had FUN at these gigs, and if they keep
> > calling me, i'll go if I can.
>
> Knock yourself out.
>
I have and I will!
> > Again, if you are worried about a few freebie gigs done by
> > non-professionals, I doubt you are a true, full-timer yourself.
> > Perhaps you need to supplement your income with some other
> > part-time job like bartending, or get some more guitar students.
>
> I'm sure the professionals among us really appreciate the advice.
There's no shame in having side jobs, especially as a
starving musician. Hell, Jim Croce was a truck driver for quite some
time......had to sell all his guitars but one......
Steven Bornfeld
> On Apr 20, 4:46 am, tom walls<tomwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 9:56 pm, Paul<quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> As I've mentioned, making music is not the same as
>>> digging a ditch! It's a hell of a lot more fun for most people.
>>
>> If the only gig you can get is a non-paying one, it's time to get back
>> to the woodshed.
>>
>
> I get paying gigs. I've played with some pros, and
> both they and the audiences like my stuff.
>
> And I don't do free gigs very often, as I like some
> gas and food money, at least. But, if there is someone with less
> experience than me, who perhaps is aspiring to become a pro one day,
> then more power to them if they wanna exercise their live
> chops, in a FREE rehearsal hall, in front of an audience.
>
> But even a beginner ain't gonna play free all the time
> for long, after they've lugged their gear a while! The only reason
> starving musicians complain about a few non-paying gigs, is that
> the market for live music sucks in general. And if you are
> complaining about free gigs, perhaps it's your own career you need
> to look at. I don't hear George Benson complaining about retired
> dentists playing free gigs!
Benson has told me that if I ever so much as hint that I'm playing free
gigs (after I retire, of course) that he'd personally hunt me down like
the wounded dog I was and break my fingers and my legs.
>
> Full-time professionals forget that people create
> art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
> just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or
> not. And part of the psychic healing of Art is to have an audience
> for that
> Art. Yes, people love to show off......why not?
>
> What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
Over at RMCG there is a professional player named Andrew Shulman who
does a regular gig at Beth Israel Medical Center here in NYC playing in
the ICU:
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/soothing-sounds-in-icu/6tq9chn
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steven Bornfeld
> "guitarannie"<guita...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:85119347-225b-4636...@v33g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale)
>> Date: 2011-04-14, 2:44PM MST
>> to ads?]
>>
>> I am looking for a 3-piece soft jazz, strings or guitarist for a VIP
>> grand opening event. Major retailer has private party April 28th, 6-8
>> pm. Great exposure - really great! No money, but recommendation for
>> your business will be a highly recognized kudo for you. Thank you!
>>
>> Location: Scottsdale
>> it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
>> commercial interests
>>
>> And the answer -
>>
>> Re: Soft jazz, strings or Guitarist Needed (Scottsdale) (Scottsdale)
>> Date: 2011-04-14, 4:55PM MST
>> to ads?]
>>
>> Wow, does this "major retailer" have any other jobs we may want to do
>> for free? I've got some trail mix in the cupboard and drink boxes in
>> the fridge...can I cater for your "VIPs"? Are they opening a new
>> store? Maybe the construction guys, plumbers, electricians can pitch
>> in their time for free? How about I come over and work the register
>> for a few hours for the "great exposure".
>>
>> Even the most average jazz musician has spent years learning and
>> practicing their instrument and probably thousands of dollars
>> investing their instruments and gear. What could possibly be your
>> basis for asking them to perform for your event for free? I sure hope
>> some poor chump does accept your "invite" and blows chunks all over
>> your event, both musically and physically.
>>
>
>
>
> I don't think any experienced players would want to do something like this.
> They may get some novice players to volunteer their services though.
>
> It reminds me of a situation I heard about though. There was a restaurant
> that had a little trio thing every week when a guy came in and offered to
> play the gig for free on piano. The establishment took him up on his offer
> and the trio was fired. It turns out that the amateur pianist is a retired
> orthodontist or something. That's pretty much what he sounds like too; just
> gawdawfull, simply dreadful.
I cudda told you that. Orthodontists got bad time. Periodontists got
good time.
Steve
>
> I wish people who perform for free would consider the effect this has on
> working musicians and the marketplace in general. I'm not holding my breath
> waiting for this to happen though. Hobbyists are going to do what they are
> going to do. ...joe
>
Paul
wrote:
Great video! Healing with music.
Notice this professional mentions how much healing
he HIMSELF gets, from giving his music to others.
And wow, 8 string classical guitar? Hardcore!!!
:)
Steven Bornfeld
I'd vote for you, if you ran.
Steve
Steven Bornfeld
He's a good guy--and, as alluded to in the video, he had his own brush
with death a couple of years back. Yeah, he's also a big advocate of
8-stringers. I think his normal tuning for strings 7 and 8 are A and E.
Bg
> What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
I guess in a sense you Are getting paifd and donating it back to the
person who needs it.
It's not really a freebie.
I believe that going out and playing a gig for free or cheap, shows
extreme disrespect and makes it a difficult for the professionals, who
are often our Heroes think Howard Alden, Jack Wilkins, Sheryl, and and
all the great players who we admire.
If we under cut and spoil their places to play we won't have any
heroes.
If one Needs to play in public, go to Jams designed for that purposes
where there's a competent rythmn section being paid to back you up
properly, and have a good time and learn.
Bg
Paul
There are many ways to tune these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-string_guitar
TD
Precisely, and completely off topic. It is merely a tangent invoked
here as a strained attempt to pour 5 lbs of cement into a 2 lb bag.
Hospitals, War veterans, people in need, Farm AID, AIDS research et al
( I am happy to donate my time there); I see no connection with the
initial topic. You will usually see an argument form a non-
professional concerning ( playing for free outside of just causes) the
topic. What does that tell you? Why bother? Let them do what they will
and let their playing speak for itself. In the end, no one can really
mind.
-TD
335
playing for a benefit to help people in need is one thing; giving away
a free entertainment service that doesn't really benefit anyone
(except the club owners wallet) in particular is different. The person
who " hired" you for the freebie now knows that musicians come cheap.
How much do you think they are going to pay the next time they need
live music? Word gets around. By playing for free you are telling the
world that you don't value yourself or other musicians.
Tom Walls
Yes, they certainly doodle-dee-do.
Tom Walls
I remember once picketing a bakery where we were striking for better
working conditions, and some dumbass telling me, "You're striking at
"***** ****"? I'd pay to work there just for the experience". So you get
them in all lines of work.
Tom Walls
>
> I cudda told you that. Orthodontists got bad time. Periodontists got
> good time.
>
> Steve
>
>
Hey, orthodontists get a bad rap!
Tim McNamara
<9f7051fd-d8bc-4b30...@w36g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
tom walls <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 10:30 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Full-time professionals forget that people create
> > art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
> > just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or not.
> >
>
> I think this is a straw man. Name a "full-time professional" who has
> forgotten that people create art for its own sake and not only to
> make money.
Mr. G, perhaps?
> >
> > What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> > for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant? Sure, you
> > don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
>
> I would recommend that anyone donating their time for charity, make
> sure that it's worth their while before committing. This is a good
> example of what I mean by "non-paying jobs bring more non-paying
> jobs". Once the local activists have your phone number, you'll be
> hearing from them often.
Maybe. But I think it's fashionable in this newsgroup for professionals
to use hobbyists as whipping boys. The problem isn't a few hobbyists
playing cheap or for free- the problem is that the market for jazz is
eroding and has been for the past 50 years. It's got nothing to do with
chops and skills and musicianship. When I go out to hear jazz it's rare
to see anyone in the audience under 50 and most of the audience is 60+.
Elvis killed jazz.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
TD
Elvis killed jazz. "
Tim, I think you are in the wrong city and please, Elvis ain't here to
defend himself. As far as hobbyists being whipped here, I don't see
it. I see some pros getting upset with cons is all.
-TD
Paul
> In article
> <9f7051fd-d8bc-4b30-99ac-eb12de757...@w36g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > On Apr 20, 10:30 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Full-time professionals forget that people create
> > > art just for the sake of it, and not necessarily to make money,
> > > just like people have sex, whether there is money involved or not.
> > >
>
> > I think this is a straw man. Name a "full-time professional" who has
> > forgotten that people create art for its own sake and not only to
> > make money.
>
> Mr. G, perhaps?
>
>
>
> > > What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> > > for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant? Sure, you
> > > don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
>
> > I would recommend that anyone donating their time for charity, make
> > sure that it's worth their while before committing. This is a good
> > example of what I mean by "non-paying jobs bring more non-paying
> > jobs". Once the local activists have your phone number, you'll be
> > hearing from them often.
>
> Maybe. But I think it's fashionable in this newsgroup for professionals
> to use hobbyists as whipping boys. The problem isn't a few hobbyists
> playing cheap or for free- the problem is that the market for jazz is
> eroding and has been for the past 50 years. It's got nothing to do with
> chops and skills and musicianship. When I go out to hear jazz it's rare
> to see anyone in the audience under 50 and most of the audience is 60+.
>
> Elvis killed jazz.
>
Many so-called "professionals" are really
more like part-timers who mainly teach music, and
they need someone to blame for their lack of gigs,
when in reality, it's only because live music, and especially
Jazz, is getting rarer.
So they search Craigslist for gigs, and are angry to
find so many other amateurs and part-timers, all fighting
for the same handful of gigs anywhere. And supply and demand
being what it is, occasional freebie gigs are offered. Last I
checked,
people charge for rehearsal space, so I just consider it
free rehearsal time! And there are PAY TO PLAY situations
these days, so if you get a free gig, and can sell some CDs,
more power to ya.
You've gotta be a bit desperate to complain about
hole-in-the-wall freebie gigs on Amateur-ville Craigslist!!
Stephen
>>
>> Over at RMCG there is a professional player named Andrew Shulman who
>> does a regular gig at Beth Israel Medical Center here in NYC playing in
>> the ICU:
>>
>> http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/soothing-sounds-in-icu/6tq9chn
>>
>
> Great video! Healing with music.
>
> Notice this professional mentions how much healing
> he HIMSELF gets, from giving his music to others.
>
> And wow, 8 string classical guitar? Hardcore!!!
>
> :)
>
>
>
Great idea, and good luck to him.
I haven't made it into any hospitals yet -- except when I was there
myself a couple of years ago -- but I play in all the local nursing homes.
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Tim
> What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
We do a few 'charity' events for free, and the ones we do is for a
good cause, but one thing I've found out, is that a lot of these
'charity/fundraiser' gigs are some of the most poorly organized events
on the face of the planet, planned by some of the poorest organizers
that will overlap you with another band or performers, get a time
slot fouled up; you show up and you're on your own type of thing, or
they stick you at playing when it's pretty well known there is going
to be a very slim crowd.
Oh yeah, if they say a PA will be provided, be sure it's not some
dime store karaoke box.
The band[s] I play in are particular at the charity events we perform
for simply for that reason. We want to know who is doing the
organizing. Some are very good at it, some have no clue. And yes,
we've turned down several.
There's no reason to do something for the good if it's gonna make you
(and the charity/fundraiser) look bad.
Chickenhead
"unknownguitarplayer" <unknowngu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:534b87f4-052b-4d4b...@v33g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>. . . However, it should
> be quite easy to sell prime ad space to the main competitors of the
> "retailer" throwing the bash. In fact, the competition might be
> willing to pay more to piss on the carpet of their rival than the
> original gig would have paid.
>
> When the horrified party planner sees the Fender logo at her Gibson
> party and orders you to remove it (and stop the Fender video that's
> playing on your mini-jumbotron, too), you can explain that "band gotta
> eat too", and Fender was willing to pay generously for the
> "exposure". When she offers to pay the original fee you quoted, you
> can explain that Fender was willing to pay a premium for the exposure,
> and you would be losing money by returning Fender's money and playing
> for the original fee. Of course, if she were willing to make a
> counteroffer....
>
Chickenhead
came in."
"Chickenhead" <BLAHkurtshB...@NOSPAMhotmTHANKYOUail.com> wrote in
message news:ioi84b$ima$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> I've always thought it would be fun to commit to something like that,
> promise a killer group, offer to take care of the PA and some wireless
> mics, dress in tuxedos, offer to MC, etc.
>
> . . . and not show up.
>
Paul
No one gets paid to write and edit in this NG, and Google is
making their money with their ads to the right.
And certainly writing is a form or art, and there are
professional
writers out there. Does that mean we amateur writers should stop
writing for free? HELL NO!!
It's too much God damned FUN!!!! Proof: Look at the countless
hours we ALL spend here.... and we don't get paid a cent!!!!
And what about RMMGJ as a Free gig, just for the exposure?
That's why many people here have FREE links to their music,
for the exposure, and why you don't have to pay to hear a sample.
Occasional Freebies can be good business.....
Paul
> On Apr 20, 9:30 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What is your feeling towards doing "free" benefit concerts,
> > for someone with cancer, or who needs a lung transplant?
> > Sure, you don't get paid, but it can be a blast!
>
> We do a few 'charity' events for free, and the ones we do is for a
> good cause, but one thing I've found out, is that a lot of these
> 'charity/fundraiser' gigs are some of the most poorly organized events
> on the face of the planet, planned by some of the poorest organizers
> that will overlap you with another band or performers, get a time
> slot fouled up; you show up and you're on your own type of thing, or
> they stick you at playing when it's pretty well known there is going
> to be a very slim crowd.
>
> Oh yeah, if they say a PA will be provided, be sure it's not some
> dime store karaoke box.
>
Tiny dime store PAs are also provided at PAID gigs too!
When in doubt, bring your own....
;)
tom walls
>
> Maybe. But I think it's fashionable in this newsgroup for professionals
> to use hobbyists as whipping boys. The problem isn't a few hobbyists
> playing cheap or for free- the problem is that the market for jazz is
> eroding and has been for the past 50 years. It's got nothing to do with
> chops and skills and musicianship. When I go out to hear jazz it's rare
> to see anyone in the audience under 50 and most of the audience is 60+.
It's easy to theorize why this occurred, but if you've been playing
gigs for the last 50 years, it was only too obvious that the market
became flooded with vanity players who would play for increasingly low
wages. It's not a point of contention, it's a fact.
Tim McNamara
<6a878dec-8b30-4112...@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
tom walls <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem isn't that from what I see looking around- the "vanity
players" are one symptom of the problem and not the cause of it (but
they are easy to blame). The problem is that the market for jazz is
shrinking. Jazz is not a music that interests the masses- and has been
losing market share since the end of the big band era.
What's our market? There are jazz clubs, of which there are basically
two here- the Dakota and The Artist's Quarter. The former books a lot
of national acts and charges $50 a pop for tickets, or $5 for local
acts. The latter is mostly an insular circle of cronies creating a set
of steady gigs for themselves (and is generally a lot more fun to go
to).
Then there are restaurants which may or may not be paying gigs; around
here the average life span of a restaurant is about a year or so before
they go broke- struggling to stay afloat, they are not likely to take on
extra expense in paying a trio $300 a gig. In order to make that work
for the restauranteur, the band has to be a draw to bring in customers
who would not otherwise be there. For the restaurant, $300 might be the
net profit for the night- restaurant overhead is *very* high and the
space the musicians are set up in could be one or two more paying
tables. In addition to that are the PRO licensing fees. I know some
musicians who do draw in a crowd of their own and as a result they get
gigs in restaurants (when I go listen I make sure the restaurant people
know that the reason I am there is the musicians). Musicians who see
themselves as doing the restauranteur a favor- as some people have
declared from time to time in the newsgroup- are likely to not get a
second gig at a restaurant.
Ditto bars, although the profit margins in bars is probably higher than
in restaurants. But bars- at least around here- are mostly the province
of young people and they tend to want to hear something other than jazz.
Coffee houses have even less money. I don't know any that pay musicians
to play there. There is either a door charge or the musicians play for
tips.
Jazz has lost most of its audience for two main reasons: first, because
rock and roll took the youth away from jazz in the 50s, followed by folk
music, the blues revival and pop musics since then; second, because it
became fashionable in jazz to ignore your audience or even hold them in
contempt. The twisted logic becomes the self-justification that "my
music is too sophisticated for most people to understand" and to take
pride in being inaccessible. As far as I can tell most jazz musicians
are "vanity players."
Jazz musicians that attempt to connect with the audience by playing more
accessible music were/are looked down upon for doing so (e.g., Wes's pop
interpretations- even he seemed to look down on it in interviews towards
the end of his life).
The basic fact is that the majority of the potential market for jazz
can't figure out what the hell is going on when they listen to it. What
they hear doesn't make sense to them and it turns them off. It's not
about unfamiliarity, it's about incomprehensibility. Hell, I hear it
all the time in clips posted here- lots of speedy runs and scales and
hot licks but little discernible musical content.
There aren't enough people left who like jazz for most musicians to be
able to make a living playing this music. I know a bunch of jazz
musicians locally and all but a handful do not make a living playing
jazz- they've all got day jobs because they'd starve trying to make a
living on CD sales and gig pay. Are they all "vanity players?" Some of
them have been at it for decades...
TD
Yes, you have actually made me a believer. I'm just wondering if Jack
Kervorkian is still alive.
-TD
Paul
> In article
> <6a878dec-8b30-4112-8efb-5bcc963c3...@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > On Apr 20, 7:27 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > Maybe. But I think it's fashionable in this newsgroup for
> > > professionals to use hobbyists as whipping boys. The problem isn't
> > > a few hobbyists playing cheap or for free- the problem is that the
> > > market for jazz is eroding and has been for the past 50 years.
> > > It's got nothing to do with chops and skills and musicianship.
> > > When I go out to hear jazz it's rare to see anyone in the audience
> > > under 50 and most of the audience is 60+.
>
> > It's easy to theorize why this occurred, but if you've been playing
> > gigs for the last 50 years, it was only too obvious that the market
> > became flooded with vanity players who would play for increasingly
> > low wages. It's not a point of contention, it's a fact.
>
> The problem isn't that from what I see looking around- the "vanity
> players" are one symptom of the problem and not the cause of it (but
> they are easy to blame). The problem is that the market for jazz is
> shrinking. Jazz is not a music that interests the masses- and has been
> losing market share since the end of the big band era.
>
> What's our market? There are jazz clubs, of which there are basically
> two here- the Dakota and The Artist's Quarter. The former books a lot
> of national acts and charges $50 a pop for tickets, or $5 for local
> acts. The latter is mostly an insular circle of cronies creating a set
> of steady gigs for themselves (and is generally a lot more fun to go
> to).
>
Big acts in Classical music can also be very expensive, which
makes
it harder for poorer younger people.
OTOH, there were a hell of a lot of young people who scrapped
up over $100 to see Roger Waters! And the place was completely
sold out. Where there is a will, there is a way.....
Classical musicians sometimes view Jazz players in the same
way Jazz players look down upon Rock/Blues players, who
look down on Hip Hop/Rap, who look down on Classical music.....ad
infinitum....
Elitism is a path to non-communication.
> Jazz musicians that attempt to connect with the audience by playing more
> accessible music were/are looked down upon for doing so (e.g., Wes's pop
> interpretations- even he seemed to look down on it in interviews towards
> the end of his life).
>
> The basic fact is that the majority of the potential market for jazz
> can't figure out what the hell is going on when they listen to it. What
> they hear doesn't make sense to them and it turns them off. It's not
> about unfamiliarity, it's about incomprehensibility. Hell, I hear it
> all the time in clips posted here- lots of speedy runs and scales and
> hot licks but little discernible musical content.
>
100% Agreed. It's mainly about flashy, "I-can-play-this-lick-
you-can't"
sort of speed licks.
Don't get me wrong: There is a place for speed and flash in
all
music, a la Chopin, Liszt, Paganini, McLaughlin, Di Meola, etc....
A speedy, flashy run can wake an audience up, and bring excitement
to a song.
But if that's all you do, and you ignore chord progression and
melody, and interesting song construction, then it's quite boring.
And remember that George Benson could have anyone else
play his equipment, and it wouldn't sound like him. People focus
on gear too much......
> There aren't enough people left who like jazz for most musicians to be
> able to make a living playing this music. I know a bunch of jazz
> musicians locally and all but a handful do not make a living playing
> jazz- they've all got day jobs because they'd starve trying to make a
> living on CD sales and gig pay. Are they all "vanity players?" Some of
> them have been at it for decades...
>
You're a good writer. I wonder if professional writers
complain about amateurs writing for free?
It's too much fun!!!!!
335
> The basic fact is that the majority of the potential market for jazz
> can't figure out what the hell is going on when they listen to it. What
> they hear doesn't make sense to them and it turns them off. It's not
> about unfamiliarity, it's about incomprehensibility. Hell, I hear it
> all the time in clips posted here- lots of speedy runs and scales and
> hot licks but little discernible musical content.
I can't figure out what the hell is going on when I try to listen to
most of the current pop music. I know that sounds old, but talk about
incomprehensible.... Classical music is losing popularity too. True,
some jazz musicians have made their art inaccessible at times. Some
jazz musicians showed disdain for the audience at times, but
ironically, Miles Davis albums still sell. They sell because it was
some of the best jazz ever played on record. Miles may have turned his
back on the audience but the quality was there.
I think part of the problem is the culture conditioning for dumbed
down, inane, auto tuned popular and country music. Unfortunately, a
lot of folks don't have an attention span for much else. Bad or
mediocre is now celebrated. Add to that a glut of jazz musicians who
are only middling players who have saturated what is left of a very
small market who are willing to play for nothing or almost nothing.
The music schools have contributed to that situation. Potential
listeners hear this and it doesn't sound good to them; they don't
enjoy it and don't support it. I think if people were hearing quality
they would be more likely to support it. The commercial culture around
us seems to discourage quality.
tom walls
It doesn't just apply to jazz, but to all live music(likely exception
being classical). What you're addressing as a marketing problem, is
simply a matter of supply and demand. Too much blinking supply of
musicians who don't expect to be paid. Finesse it any way you like.
Tim McNamara
<91235f0b-91c5-4dca...@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
335 <335p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 9:15 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > The basic fact is that the majority of the potential market for
> > jazz can't figure out what the hell is going on when they listen to
> > it. What they hear doesn't make sense to them and it turns them
> > off. It's not about unfamiliarity, it's about incomprehensibility.
> > Hell, I hear it all the time in clips posted here- lots of speedy
> > runs and scales and hot licks but little discernible musical
> > content.
>
> I can't figure out what the hell is going on when I try to listen to
> most of the current pop music. I know that sounds old, but talk about
> incomprehensible....
I'm there with you. I expect and want to hear progression, tension
resolution, a melody, interaction between the musicians, etc. What I
hear when I overhear current pop music tends to be a monotonous rhythm
track with words being shouted over it (male singers) or crooned in some
sort of baby-talk (female singers). Lyrical content seems to boil down
to (males) "get on your knees and suck it bitch or I'll bust you upside
the head" or (females) "I got on my knees and sucked it baby but you
cheated on me anyway."
I can't figure out most people *don't* listen to better music... not
necessarily jazz, but something that is't crap. Maybe I just haven't
overheard the good modern pop music?
> Classical music is losing popularity too. True, some jazz musicians
> have made their art inaccessible at times. Some jazz musicians showed
> disdain for the audience at times, but ironically, Miles Davis albums
> still sell. They sell because it was some of the best jazz ever
> played on record. Miles may have turned his back on the audience but
> the quality was there.
At least sometimes the quality was there. Sometimes not. Miles found
that being disdainful of his audience sold records, at least to a
certain slice of white middle class America. Race was and is a
complicated issue in this country and is still a factor- sometimes an
unpredictable one- in music sales.
> I think part of the problem is the culture conditioning for dumbed
> down, inane, auto tuned popular and country music. Unfortunately, a
> lot of folks don't have an attention span for much else. Bad or
> mediocre is now celebrated.
> Add to that a glut of jazz musicians who are only middling players
> who have saturated what is left of a very small market who are
> willing to play for nothing or almost nothing.
That's not a new thing, of course. There have always been middling jazz
musicians who manage to find an audience.
> The music schools have contributed to that situation.
That's an interesting point.
> Potential listeners hear this and it doesn't sound good to them; they
> don't enjoy it and don't support it. I think if people were hearing
> quality they would be more likely to support it. The commercial
> culture around us seems to discourage quality.
You've probably got something there. I remember a shift in the 80s when
record executives and some musicians started talking about "product"
rather than music. Things seemed to go downhill when the business
perspective of music shifted overtly from art to commodity. I think
this sort of thing tends to herald a general decline anyway- I've been
fighting it in my own field as there has been a tendency to turn "health
care service" into "health care product." I blame MBAs. ;-)
Tim McNamara
<e175b1df-0484-4d75...@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
tom walls <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
Classical music is organizationally something of a different beast, I
think you're right about that. And I think you're right that the
phenomena under discussion are occurring in other styles of music.
This has triggered some questions for me. How long has there been a
relatively large class of professional musicians? In 1000, 1500, 1800,
etc. were there thousands of professional musicians in the US? Was
there something of an explosion of professional musicians in the 20th
century, possibly resulting from the advent of recording? Are we seeing
the rise and fall of a cultural aberration? I tried googling around on
this question without much luck in finding any information.
Paul
> In article
> <91235f0b-91c5-4dca-982f-ec3489057...@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
Miles turned his back to the audience because he was
conducting his band, just like any other conductor faces
the orchestra.
He was also a melodic genius. He was capable of fast,
flashy, lot's of notes runs, but he didn't do them often......he
had more musical sense, and knew long single notes can be
more effective in creating tension and anticipation.
Music transcends race. Miles got flak from the black
community for hiring white Bill Evans, but Miles once stated
the best bands were of mixed race.
He also was smart enough to change with the times,
and mix with the rock music that was happening.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"I turn my back because I play better." "Some notes you get better in
a specific spot on the stage. If I play a high note, and don't hear
it, I'll move." -Miles Davis
-TD
Tim McNamara
Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
> <e175b1df-0484-4d75...@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
> tom walls <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 21, 10:15 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It doesn't just apply to jazz, but to all live music(likely exception
> > being classical). What you're addressing as a marketing problem, is
> > simply a matter of supply and demand. Too much blinking supply of
> > musicians who don't expect to be paid. Finesse it any way you like.
>
> Classical music is organizationally something of a different beast, I
> think you're right about that. And I think you're right that the
> phenomena under discussion are occurring in other styles of music.
>
> This has triggered some questions for me. How long has there been a
> relatively large class of professional musicians? In 1000, 1500, 1800,
> etc. were there thousands of professional musicians in the US?
Well duh, no, not in 1000 or in 1500 obviously. I really have to learn
to proofread. :-P
Bg
> I think part of the problem is the culture conditioning for dumbed
> down, inane, auto tuned popular and country music. Unfortunately, a
> lot of folks don't have an attention span for much else. Bad or
> mediocre is now celebrated. Add to that a glut of jazz musicians who
> are only middling players who have saturated what is left of a very
> small market who are willing to play for nothing or almost nothing.
> The music schools have contributed to that situation. Potential
> listeners hear this and it doesn't sound good to them; they don't
> enjoy it and don't support it. I think if people were hearing quality
> they would be more likely to support it. The commercial culture around
> us seems to discourage quality.
Well said.
Bg