Only the best preferred (More Mangeshkar Controversy)
Dinesh Krishnajois
Only the best preferred
A study of the history of the Hindi film
music industry reveals that in the golden era
(1940s and 1950s) so much talent was
available that music composers tried
different singers for various stars. Once the
system settled down, certain groups
emerged and survived for years, observes
V. GANGADHAR.
God created music ... Yes.
God created the Mangeshkars ... Okay.
God created Monopoly ... Did He?
I AM also not sure about the third answer. But many people who follow Hindi film
music, associate not God but the Mangeshkars, particularly Lata and Asha (Bhosle)
as the creators of Monopoly. Experts in the field had argued eloquently and also
written books on how Lata and to a lesser extent, Asha, through their machinations,
had kept down rival talent and played havoc with the careers of budding singers.
But several keen followers of the music industry denied the allegations against the
Mangeshkar sisters. They did not want to be quoted. ``This controversy is dead, so
why start it all over again'' asked a well- known music director from the past. ``In
every field, the best are preferred. It was the same with Hindi film music,'' he
explained.
Yes, monopoly in the world of film music did exist in the past. But it did not apply only
to the Mangeshkars. From the 1950s to the mid-80s, Lata Mangeshkar and then
Asha Bhosle cornered most of the songs tuned in by talented music directors. At the
same time, can we deny that the 1960s saw the total domination of Mohammed Rafi
among the male voices and that he sang for practically every hero, from Mahipal to
Shammi Kapoor? The same Rafi was subsequently eclipsed by Kishore Kumar. After
the resounding success of ``Aradhana'', Kishore enjoyed a golden period which was
even longer than that of Rafi. And if we consider music directors, did not
Shankar-Jaikishan have a tremendous streak during the 1960s? They provided music
to an astounding 25 top films from 1960-65.
Yet no one talked of the Rafi, Kishore or Shankar-Jaikishan monopoly. Why then
single out the Mangeshkar monopoly? The Mangeshkars are still alive and they have
had the longest tenure in the world of film music. When a singer or music director
passed away, details and controversies of his career were buried along with him.
A study of the history of Hindi film music industry tells us that in the golden era,
between the late 1940s and 1950s, so much talent was available that music directors
experimented with different singers for different stars. Thus, even Mukesh sang for
Dev Anand (``Vidya''), Rafi for Raj Kapoor (``Dastaan'') and even Kishore Kumar
for Raj (``Pyar''). Once the system settled down, certain groups emerged which
survived for years. Naushad saab always chose Rafi for Dilip Kumar, Mukesh was
the natural playback for Raj Kapoor with Shankar-Jaikishan as music directors while
S. D. Burman preferred Hemant Kumar and then Kishore Kumar for Dev Anand.
Sometimes, there were exceptions, when Talat Mahmood sang several memorable
songs for Dilip Kumar (``Daag'', ``Babul'', ``Sangdil'' and ``Tarana''). Manna Dey did
the same for Raj Kapoor.
There was less competition among women singers and Lata asserted her superiority.
A singer herself, actress Suraiya preferred Lata to sing for her. Shamshad Begum's
slightly harsh voice did not suit the emerging soft heroines, Geeta Dutt had to contend
with personal problems. Other singers in the field like Kamal Barot, Sudha Malhotra,
Meena Kapur and Suman Kalyanpur were no match for the Mangeshkars. In the era
of golden compositions, the music directors and audiences wanted only Lata. It was
not monopoly, but the need of the hour.
Monopoly, in the field of music, is a harsh term. It implies ruthlessness, putting down
rivals in the field. While the media speculated on the issue, there had never been clear
proof of Lata and later Asha, being guilty of doing this. Observed one of the new
wave music directors, ``Even today, given the choice, we will run after Lata didi. Do
you know that in the past, some of the music directors wanted Lataji to sing for them
so much, they shelled out some extra cash from their own pockets, if the producer
was not able to afford her rates?''
The music world was unanimous that the other singers were not a patch on Lata and
Asha. ``Vani Jairam had a heavy voice with poor diction. Runa Laila was too modern,
Usha Mangeshkar had no voice to speak of. Suman Kalyanpur came closest to Lata
in voice and range but lacked staying power. That was why she was called the poor
man's Lata'', explained a producer who had a string of musical hits.
While talking about the Mangeshkar monopoly, we should also remember that the
rival singers were often the choice of music directors who were not in the top bracket.
Vani often sang for Vasant Desai and occasionally for Ravi Shankar, who were not in
the rat race. Runa Laila, Sulakshana Pandit, Kanchan, Hemlata, Indrani Mukherjee
and others were chosen by music director who really did not count for much in
Bollywood.
How true was the allegation that Lata was not grateful enough to producers and
composers who built up her career? Some of her immortal numbers were no doubt
composed by Shankar-Jaikishan who, however, dug their own grave when they opted
for Sharada over Lata. Then Jaikishan who was clearly not happy with the choice
died. Shankar lost his direction and blamed Lata for this decline. This was not
justified. Similarly, Raj Kapoor thought he could get along without Lata, who was a
lucky mascot for RK films. Came ``Mera Naam Joker'' without Lata and it sank
without a trace. Raj saab quickly got back to Lata.
If the Mangeshkar monopoly, throttled talent in Hindi films, how did one explain the
success of music director Ravi, who while scoring music for B. R. Chopra films,
preferred Asha? Or take the success of the inimitable O. P. Nayyar who, without ever
using Lata, scored dozens of hits in the 1960s? We cannot deny that Lata split with C.
Ramachandra and later with S. D. Burman on personal issues. But such splits were
common in the high profile Hindi film industry and Lata and Dada Burman quickly
made up.
Today, no one mentions monopoly in the world of film music. It is open to anyone.
Any song can be sung by anyone. The heroines do not have their own favourite
singers. If Alka Yagnik were not available, the songs went to Kavita Krishnamoorthy
and it went the other way too. But music directors would be happier if they had Lata
or Asha sing their classical numbers. Thus Lata-Asha sang for ``Utsav'' and ``Lekin''.
Asha had the best numbers in ``Umrao Jaan''. Who can forget the soft, sweet numbers
sung by Lata in films like ``Henna'' and ``Nachhe Mayuri''?
As far as Lata is concerned, the argument that any singer could sing any song did not
work. Alka Yagnik was chosen to replace Lata who was too ill to sing a particular
soft number in ``Prem Granth''. The song did not click. Most music lovers firmly
believed that no singer (new or old) could sing numbers like ``Ayega Aanewala'',
``Tandi Hawaiyaeen'' or ``Aaje Re Pardesi'' immortalised by Lata. Have Alka and
Kavita sung numbers which we feel could not be sung by anyone else? This is the test
of a true singer. Anuradha Poduwal, with the help of the late Gulshan Kumar, re-
recorded several Lata melodies, but the effect was not the same. Let us admit it, Lata
was incomparable. She was so much better than her rivals that she did not need a
monopoly.
Arun Sampath
portray a fanatic's obsession about Lata, yet subtly praises her talent and
deftly leads the reader into believing that there never was a monopoly to
begin with. I wouldn't be far off if I say that Lata and Asha between them
probably sang 9 out of every 10 songs sung by a female singer between 1950
and 1980 in HFM??
Anyway, I was just wondering if people could identify one particular singer
from the collage of photos in the article. Apart from Lata, Asha, Rafi, KK
(male and female), Manna Dey, Talat (upper left?) Alka and Vani Jairam,
there is this female singer in a bluish saree sitting to the right of Lata.
Does anyone know who she is? Going through the list of singers that the
article mentions, it is not Suman, Geeta, Meena Kapoor, Shamshad, Runa
Laila, Sulakshana Pandit, Hemlata, Usha or Anuradha. I haven't seen Kamal
Bharot, Sudha Malhotra, Kanchan (is she the one in the duet with Mukesh, kya
khoob lagti ho??), or Indrani Mukerjee (who is she??). The reason why I ask
is that she looks very much like Vasantha Ramanujam, a carnatic classical
singer from Bangalore. She happens to be my aunt's sister. If it indeed
turns out to be her, I am baffled. I don't know why a carnatic classical
singer's photo has been included alongside film singers of HFM and more
importantly though she is a decent singer, she is not in the top rung of
classical singers. If it's not her, the resemblance is indeed startling.
Anybody??
A
Abhay Phadnis
"she-who-was-to-be-the-next-Lata" - Anuradha-ji Paudwal in person! The
picture is not very clear on the website - the paper version carried it in
identifiable form.
Warm regards,
Abhay
"Arun Sampath" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ec73n$4...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com...
Ket...@att.net
>
>Well, the journalist must be a big time Lata Bhakt. He/she doesn't overtly
>portray a fanatic's obsession about Lata, yet subtly praises her talent and
>deftly leads the reader into believing that there never was a monopoly to
>begin with. I wouldn't be far off if I say that Lata and Asha between them
>probably sang 9 out of every 10 songs sung by a female singer between 1950
>and 1980 in HFM??
What is more surprising is that none of the MD's want to give their names. Why
not? Especially when they are pronouncing Lata/Asha as NOT GUILTY?
If the author were serious about investigating this, he would first and foremost
examine all the allegations against Lata/Asha without bringing in other remarks.
OTOH, the author cleverly says "So what if Lata/Asha did...so did Rafi, Kishore,
S-J too". That in effect does the reverse of clearing up Lata/Asha's name.
If Lata were indeed not monopolistic, she would have let Kavita's version of
"Kuch na kaho"(1942-ALS) stay and not overdub it--post RD's death. Instead
she insisted on recording it and making it into a "halloween" song(I mean her
voice is ghastly enough to scare young and old).
Ketan
Vijay Kumar K
equipped
singer among the lot. She probably was. In some of her early songs
(teraa khat
le ke sanam, merii phuulo.n me chhipi hai javani, balamaa ba.Daa
naadaan) her
voice quality is endearingly sweet. You could fall in love with
someone just for
singing in such a voice, never mind any other qualities the person
possessed!
BUT ..and it is a big but.. Lata's was not the only voice capable of
delivering
what it was that the songs of the day needed. Can one honestly say
that
Rajkumari in Bawre Nain was any lesser than Lata in Jaal? And there
was enough
evidence that even into the 80s, Rajkumari's voice was in fine fettle.
Or that
Geeta in Jogan was a leser singer than Lata? For all Lata's felicity
in Anokha
Pyar, the Meena Kapoor and Ira Nagrath songs/versions are startling
reminders of
what some of the other singers of the era were capable of. Suraiya,
even in
Rustom Sohrab was capable of putting across the simmering passion of
ye kaisii
ajab daastaaN ho gayii hai which I am yet to find in any song that
Lata sang, or
Asha for that matter. Listen to Shamshad singing chali pi ko milan in
Ziddi and
tell me who would have done a better job of it?
>There was less competition among women singers and Lata asserted her
>superiority. A singer herself, actress Suraiya preferred Lata to sing
for her.
>Shamshad Begum's slightly harsh voice did not suit the emerging soft
heroines,
>Geeta Dutt had to contend with personal problems. Other singers in
the field
>like Kamal Barot, Sudha Malhotra, Meena Kapur and Suman Kalyanpur
were no
>match for the Mangeshkars. In the era of golden compositions, the
music
>directors and audiences wanted only Lata.
Less competition? Far from it, one glance at the songscape of the 50s
would
reveal that there were as many, if not more active women singers as
men. Among
the men, you could count the big six (Rafi, Talat, Kishore, Hemant,
Mukesh,
Manna De).. beyond that you had parttimers like Chitalkar, SDB, Ashok
Kumar,
Pradeep...GM Durrani probably sang a few songs, Surendra, Balbir, SD
Batish,
Dhananjay Bhattacharya, Dwijen Mukherjee, Subir Sen and PB Srinivas
were lesser
lights and occasional cameos by Bhimsen Joshi, Amir Khan complete the
picture.
Among the women, you had Lata, Asha, Geeta, Shamshad, Suraiya, Suman,
Sudha,
Meena Kapoor, Rajkumari, Ameerbai, Sabita Choudhary, Jagjit Kaur,
Surinder,
Kamal Barot, Madhubala Jhaveri and Mubarak Begum. Plus the siblings
Usha and
Meena. And can you honestly say that the distribution was more
lopsided among
the men? At the end of the 50s, we were introduced to Mahendra Kapoor
and Arti
Mukherjee, the two brightest talents uncovered by a nationwide search.
Plot
their career graphs for the 60s and you can see the imbalance between
the female
voices scenario and the male voices scenario.
Make no mistake, I am a biggish fan of Lata, but pardon me if I do not
subscribe to the view that female voices start with Lata and end with
Asha! Like
saying if Sachin does not bat, we may as well not play.
And Suraiya wanting Lata to sing for her was more because she wanted
to play
truant and did not really enjoy singing.
>At the same time, can we deny that the 1960s saw the total domination
of Rafi
>among the male voices and that he sang for practically every hero,
from Mahipal
>to Shammi Kapoor? The same Rafi was subsequently eclipsed by Kishore
Kumar.
>After the resounding success of ``Aradhana'', Kishore enjoyed a
golden period
>which was even longer than that of Rafi. And if we consider music
directors,
>did not Shankar-Jaikishan have a tremendous streak during the 1960s?
They
>provided music to an astounding 25 top films from 1960-65.
Very one-eyed view which brings the writer's knowledge of the HFM
scene into
serious question. For example, Mukesh was going strong in the 60s for
both Raj
Kapoor and Manoj Kumar. He even broke into Rafidom by singing for
Rajendra Kumar
for a few films and for Sunil Dutt. Manna De was de rigeur for Mahmood
and
Kishore hadn't exactly vaporized at that time... Dev was still nodding
to the
Kishore vocals in Guide, bang in the middle of the so called Rafi
decade.
Besides, Mahendra Kapoor had just made his mark at the end of the 50s
decade and
he had a decent run in the 60s with Ravi's backing. Come the 70s and
the loot
was even more equitably spread with Yesudas, Shailendra Singh, Amit
Kumar adding
to the number of choices. As for SJ, just look at the Binaca lists
Srinivas
posted in the past few weeks and you know that SDB, Jaidev, LP, KA,
Naushad, etc
were pretty much up there vying for top honours in that period.
> Sometimes, there were exceptions, when Talat Mahmood sang several memorable
> songs for Dilip Kumar (``Daag'', ``Babul'', ``Sangdil'' and ``Tarana'').
Some people just don't know their history. At that time, Talat was the
#1.
Period. He sang for everyone from Dilip to Raj to Dev and the still
meaty next
rung like Shammi Kapoor, V Shantaram, Bharat Bhushan to the
nondescripts like
Suresh and Chandrashekhar.
>The music world was unanimous that the other singers were not a patch
on Lata
>and Asha. ``Vani Jairam had a heavy voice with poor diction. Runa
Laila was
>too modern, Usha Mangeshkar had no voice to speak of. Suman Kalyanpur
came
>closest to Lata in voice and range but lacked staying power. That was
why she
>was called the poor man's Lata'', explained a producer who had a
string of
>musical hits.
So, Begum Akhtar and Noorjehan had heavier voices than Lata, too.
Kishore was
modern and that was why he stole a march on the equally accomplished
Rafi in
the 70s. How come Runa Laila's being modern makes her fail? And why
exactly did
Suman lack staying power? Because no one would back her? And why was
that?
>While talking about the Mangeshkar monopoly, we should also remember
that the
>rival singers were often the choice of music directors who were not
in the top
>bracket. Vani often sang for Vasant Desai and occasionally for Ravi
Shankar,
>who were not in the rat race. Runa Laila, Sulakshana Pandit, Kanchan,
Hemlata,
>Indrani Mukherjee and others were chosen by music director who really
did not
>count for much in Bollywood.
Or is it that those who did not depend on Bollywood alone, or those
who were
removed from commercial considerations only, felt free to indulge in
the correct
musical choices required for their compositions. To say that Ravi
Shankar or
Vasant Desai were light-weights is fallacy, to say the least.
Rajkamal, who was
such a staunch backer of Runa Laila and Sulakshana was as talented as
Shnkar-
Jaikishan, surely. Kanu Roy any lesser than LP?
>If the Mangeshkar monopoly, throttled talent in Hindi films, how did
one
>explain the success of music director Ravi, who while scoring music
for B. R.
>Chopra films, preferred Asha? Or take the success of the inimitable
O. P.
>Nayyar who, without ever using Lata, scored dozens of hits in the
1960s? We
>cannot deny that Lata split with C. Ramachandra and later with S. D.
Burman on
>personal issues. But such splits were common in the high profile
Hindi film
>industry and Lata and Dada Burman quickly made up.
Ravi's Asha songs for BR Chopra films? The first name one associates
with Ravi's
BR Chopra songs is Mahendra Kapoor. That, and not Asha's presence, is
the high-
light of his 60s music. And Lata wasn't exactly absent from Ravi's
recording
room. ai mere dil-e-naadaan, badale badale mere sarkaar, laage na
moraa jiyaa,
milti hai zindagi me aren't forgettable songs, really.
And OP Nayyar hits in the 60s? Set Aar Paar, Baazi, CID, Mr. & Mrs.
55, Howrah
Bridge, Tumsa Nahi Dekha, Phagun, Naya Daur on one side and Kashmir Ki
Kali,
Mere Sanam, Phir Vahi Dil Laya Hoon, Ek Musafir Ek Haseena, Kismat and
Ye Raat
Phir na aayegi on the other side, with "sooli ke kaaNTe par" Sone Ki
Chidiya ...
I know which one I would rather take... and it is not the 60s.
>Let us admit it, Lata was incomparable. She was so much better than
her rivals
>that she did not need a monopoly.
She was good. Damn good. But let us admit it, we did not need the
monopoly.
Arun, I don't think Lata-Asha account for 90% of songs sung by
women...
simple calculation... together about 10,000 songs, right? Let us see,
about
1500-1600 films in each decade. Say 6 songs per film. gives us 10,000
songs per
decade. Say about half feature women's voices. 5000 songs. In the 50s,
60s and
70s alone that would be 15,000 songs. I see their share closer to 50%
than 90...
Still a whopping majority, but less imposing than 90%.
Vijay
Ket...@att.net
vijay...@my-deja.com says...
>>Let us admit it, Lata was incomparable. She was so much better than
>>her rivals that she did not need a monopoly.
>She was good. Damn good. But let us admit it, we did not need the
>monopoly.
>Arun, I don't think Lata-Asha account for 90% of songs sung by
>women...
>simple calculation... together about 10,000 songs, right? Let us see,
>about
>1500-1600 films in each decade. Say 6 songs per film. gives us 10,000
>songs per
>decade. Say about half feature women's voices. 5000 songs. In the 50s,
>60s and
>70s alone that would be 15,000 songs. I see their share closer to 50%
>than 90...
>Still a whopping majority, but less imposing than 90%.
Taking your two paragraphs together--how are Lata/Asha having a monopoly if
their total output as compared to the output by all female singers is about 50%.
The market seems pretty unprotected facilitating equal opportunities for every
singer. Also, I have never heard of Lata/Asha pricing themselves below market
rate, so one cannot even levy anti-dumping rules on them. By trade rules,
production(in this case songs) should have shifted to more competitive areas(in
this case singers who charged considerably less). Unless ofcourse the
goods(songs again) were of such superior quality(by Lata & Asha) that the buyers
did not mind paying the higher price. You would rather buy a Japanese/German car
even if it costs $10K more than a similar sized and equipped American car
because at some level the added cost does not matter much to you. Probably all
you gain is peace of mind,(which is worth $10K to you) but that is important to
you(besides the fact that US cars still have the highest defects per 1000
parts). Similarly, for a composer, the peace of mind he got from the hard work
and training that Lata/Asha put into their songs made his job easier. Whereas
with other singers he might have needed the studio for 3 days, which would
include rehearsals(1 day), recording(1 day) and mixing(1 day), with Lata & Asha
he could wrap it up in one day. If you had to record one song twice--once for
the soundtrack and once for the 78 RPM, oftentimes with different antaras,
wouldn't you too prefer someone who could multi-task well? This is the reason RD
cited for preferring Kishore over Rafi. According to RD, KK(of the goldies age)
picked up the tunes much much faster than Rafi did, which to RD was a huge
savings in terms of time & money. Ofcourse in RD's case the final output too was
far far better with Kishore. :)
Now why I think they WERE a monopoly :
Lata/Asha might not have actually done any harm to any singer's career. However
the mere threat of reprisals against a music composer who refused to toe the
line is IMHO a monopolistic attitude. Microsoft did not really put a company out
of business on its own, but they made the survival of that company such a
difficult task that the poor mom-and-pop software guy just threw in the towel
and filed for Chapter 11. M'soft, even threatened their own blood-brother, Intel
with reprisals. That was ruled as monopolistic behaviour. Similarly, we have a
Lata who destroyed the career of CR once she was done with him on the personal
front. It's not like CR's music was fab one day and stank the very next. She
knew that his music was still good. But by refusing to sing for him, she put him
out of the market wherein no producer would touch a CR who had hassles with his
singers. She did this knowing fully well this would happen to CR and she used
this info against him. Likewise with Lata & S-J. Ditto with Asha and OPN. Read
Raju Bharatan's account on how Lata single-handedly wrecked RK's Satyam Shivam
Sundaram just to get back at him, knowing that it would make a mess of the
movie. Again, Microsoft was ruled a monopoly because they knowingly withheld
portions of their code to rival software manufacturers. They did this knowing
fully well that that action would pretty much prevent the public from buying
anyone else's software. Microsoft rightfully claimed that they had never
actually prevented anyone from selling a rival software. IMHO, the only big time
MD's who used both sisters very often and who were probably not affected by the
whims and fancies of these two singers were SDB/RDB and Roshan. The Burmans
ofcourse were far better. :) Why they weren't affected is another post
altogether.
My 2 cents...
Ketan
Arun Sampath
"Vijay Kumar K" <vijay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
Lata's was not the only voice capable of
> delivering
> what it was that the songs of the day needed. Can one honestly say
> that
> Rajkumari in Bawre Nain was any lesser than Lata in Jaal? And there
> was enough
> evidence that even into the 80s, Rajkumari's voice was in fine fettle.
> Or that
> Geeta in Jogan was a leser singer than Lata? For all Lata's felicity
> in Anokha
> Pyar, the Meena Kapoor and Ira Nagrath songs/versions are startling
> reminders of
> what some of the other singers of the era were capable of. Suraiya,
> even in
> Rustom Sohrab was capable of putting across the simmering passion of
> ye kaisii
> ajab daastaaN ho gayii hai which I am yet to find in any song that
> Lata sang, or
> Asha for that matter. Listen to Shamshad singing chali pi ko milan in
> Ziddi and
> tell me who would have done a better job of it?
IMO, if there is another singer who can compare with Lata and Asha, it is
Noorjehan. Others (Geeta, Shamshad included) were just not up to it. Going
into what they lacked is a probably topic for a new thread. There is one
dark horse here and that is Rajkumari. If there ever was a singer in HFM who
got way less fame/recognition than what he/she deserved, then it's her. If
she had better opportunities, I feel she would have given stiff competition
to the big three.
> Among the women, you had Lata, Asha, Geeta, Shamshad, Suraiya, Suman,
> Sudha,
> Meena Kapoor, Rajkumari, Ameerbai, Sabita Choudhary, Jagjit Kaur,
> Surinder,
> Kamal Barot, Madhubala Jhaveri and Mubarak Begum. Plus the siblings
> Usha and
> Meena. And can you honestly say that the distribution was more
> lopsided among
> the men?
I second the journalist here. Of all the singers you mention, Geeta was
probably the only one who came close to competing with Lata and Asha.
Singers like Shamshad, Suraiya, Rajkumari and Amirbai predate Lata and Asha
and didn't have much output during the heydays of the two sisters. Suman did
have quite a few songs in the 60s but didn't much headway. All the others
you mention just make up the also-ran statistics as far the numbers go.
Whether it's due to lack of competition or whether it's due to their
monopoly or a bit of both, the sisters did manage to get a lion's share of
the songs in the 50s, 60s and the 70s.
> > Sometimes, there were exceptions, when Talat Mahmood sang several
memorable
> > songs for Dilip Kumar (``Daag'', ``Babul'', ``Sangdil'' and
``Tarana'').
> Some people just don't know their history. At that time, Talat was the
> #1.
> Period.
Well, I don't know who knows HFM history better, but I do know from whatever
I have read and heard so far, that Talat was not considered the No.1 singer
at any point in time. AFAIK, after the legendary K.L. Saigal's era, it's
been Rafi and then KK.
> Arun, I don't think Lata-Asha account for 90% of songs sung by
> women...
> simple calculation... together about 10,000 songs, right? Let us see,
> about
> 1500-1600 films in each decade. Say 6 songs per film. gives us 10,000
> songs per
> decade. Say about half feature women's voices. 5000 songs. In the 50s,
> 60s and
> 70s alone that would be 15,000 songs. I see their share closer to 50%
> than 90...
> Still a whopping majority, but less imposing than 90%.
You are probably closer to the real number than me but I still feel that it
must be much more than 50%. I have no basis to say this but Lata and Asha
have dominated so much in HFM that I can't think of 50% of the songs sung by
others during those three decades. But then, for a long time I had the
impression that Lata sang more number of songs than Asha.....
A
Surajit A. Bose
his grasp of fact. Par for the course where rabid Lata fans are
concerned, of course.
> Runa Laila was too modern
"Too modern"? Egad! It was those sleeveless blouses, wasn't it?
> Vani often sang for Vasant Desai and occasionally for Ravi Shankar,
Oh please. "Often" or even "occasionally" implies "more than once."
Vani has sung for each in exactly one movie apiece.
> the rat race. Runa Laila, Sulakshana Pandit, Kanchan, Hemlata, Indrani
> Mukherjee and others were chosen by music director who really did not
>count for much in Bollywood.
Indrani Mukherjee is an actress; AFAIK she had no aspirations toward
singing for herself. Runa Laila sang for exactly two films, the MDs of
which were Kalyanji-Anandji and Jaidev. Kanchan was a protege of
Kalyanji-Anandji (IIRC she was the girlfriend of thier younger brother
Babla). Sulakshana and Hemlata have each sung for scores of music
directors, including Kalyanji-Anandji. KA were tremendously prolific in
the 1970s and 80s, and it's simply not true to say that they "really
did not count for much in Bollywood."
> Who can forget the soft, sweet
> numbers sung by Lata in films like ``Henna'' and ``Nachhe Mayuri''
A half-truth. Once you've heard "saadhanaa aaraadhanaa merii raha gayii
adhuurii" from NACHE MAYURI it's permanently stuck in your mind with
the same effect that a glass splinter has in your eye. Unforgettable,
yes. Soft and sweet, no.
-s
Ket...@att.net
>Well, I don't know who knows HFM history better, but I do know from whatever
>I have read and heard so far, that Talat was not considered the No.1 singer
>at any point in time. AFAIK, after the legendary K.L. Saigal's era, it's
>been Rafi and then KK.
Who was the # 1 male singer from around 1947--1953 or so? It would probably be
Talat followed by Mukesh.
Ketan
naniwadekar
> ... including Kalyanji-Anandji. KA were tremendously prolific in
> the 1970s and 80s, and it's simply not true to say that they "really
> did not count for much in Bollywood."
>
that he has not seen any RMIM poster sign off with
the words : "A KA fan(atic)".
- nani
A V.Gangadhar fan(atic)
Ket...@att.net
nan...@hotmail.com says...
Is your middle name "Anu Mallik"? Copy-cat..and that too without acknowledging
or paying any royalties. Hmph!
Ketan
naniwadekar
<Ket...@att.net> wrote -
> >Probably the learned writer meant nothing more than
> >that he has not seen any RMIM poster sign off with
> >the words : "A KA fan(atic)".
> >
> >- nani
> >A V.Gangadhar fan(atic)
>
> Is your middle name "Anu Mallik"? Copy-cat..and that too without
acknowledging
> or paying any royalties. Hmph!
>
> Ketan
>
No true original has stopped doing his own thing just because
copy-cats have taken to copying him / her.
Lata went one step better. Her copy-cats won't learn from her.
So she learnt from them instead, and began screetching. Suman
Kalyanpur turned out to be a poor disciple, and ended up
being a great guru.
- nani
Miteshalka
>Raju Bharatan's account on how Lata single-handedly wrecked RK's Satyam
>Shivam
>Sundaram just to get back at him, knowing that it would make a mess of the
>movie
I was interested in this comment from your post. Where can one read this
article ? Until now I had thought it was Lata's voice and LP's music which had
rescued this movie. I listened to an audio of this movie again after many years
recently and was surprised again how good she sounds and how underrated some of
the songs are particulärily "bhor bhaye panghat pe" . The movie was terrible
and nothing could have rescued the story line which was a real indictment on
the training o engineers - the bloke couldn't recognise his mistress and his
wife were the same person- and spent so much time with both that the dam he
built burst at the end of the movie destroying the village they lived in!- this
is the movie we are talking about as being wrecked by lata's singing - oh
please!!
Sathya
1955, you would find that Talat certainly was the top singer of the
time. Rafi in those years, was either restricted to the
Naushad-music-room or got the few duets and faster songs that Talat
rejected.
It is also fair to say that Rafi survived and rose ONLY due to
Naushad. In those early 50s, Naushad was THE composer. C.Ramchandra,
Husnalal Bhagatram, Anil Biswas and even Shankar jaikishan who were
the other top composers of the day in terms of hits, were all
Talat-preferers. Not that they dodnt do anything with Rafi - but their
finest compositions were reserved for Talat.
IMO, Talat was the top singer till around 55. Uran Khatola was one
turning point when Rafi emerged as Dilip Kumar's voice - and stuck.
And the next major turning point occured with "Madhumati" in 58 where
Mukesh made a brilliant comeback. Talat faded away after that.
In conclusion, 50-55 : Talat
55 - 58 : (IMO) Tie between Rafi, Manna Dey and Talat
Post-58 : Rafi
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<9ehjr...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Ket...@att.net
sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
>I think that if one looks at the musical compositions between 1950 -
>1955, you would find that Talat certainly was the top singer of the
>time. Rafi in those years, was either restricted to the
>Naushad-music-room or got the few duets and faster songs that Talat
>rejected.
IMHO, Your statement is both right and wrong at the same time. If you look at
the musical compositions, Talat seems to have been the first choice of MD's.
However to say that Rafi was restricted to the Naushad room or duets is not true
either. Between 1944 and 1953, Rafi sang close to 200 solos.
>It is also fair to say that Rafi survived and rose ONLY due to
>Naushad. In those early 50s, Naushad was THE composer. C.Ramchandra,
>Husnalal Bhagatram, Anil Biswas and even Shankar jaikishan who were
>the other top composers of the day in terms of hits, were all
>Talat-preferers. Not that they dodnt do anything with Rafi - but their
>finest compositions were reserved for Talat.
IMHO, Again your statement is true and false. To say Rafi survived because of
Naushad is true, however I would say Rafi rose because of OPN. It was OPN, who
got Rafi from Aar-Paar onwards to really get out of the droning dull voice that
he sang in for Naushad and really opened up the skies for him. Sure, others had
used Rafi earlier too for lively songs(Roshan in Maalkin for one) but somehow
Kishore seems to have been preferred to Rafi for the fun songs between 1948 and
1953. Till 1955, Kishore had more songs with Roshan than Rafi did.
>IMO, Talat was the top singer till around 55. Uran Khatola was one
>turning point when Rafi emerged as Dilip Kumar's voice - and stuck.
>And the next major turning point occured with "Madhumati" in 58 where
>Mukesh made a brilliant comeback. Talat faded away after that.
>In conclusion, 50-55 : Talat
>55 - 58 : (IMO) Tie between Rafi, Manna Dey and Talat
>Post-58 : Rafi
I would say Rafi's second coming was in Aar Paar(1954) and third coming was in
the Pyaasa--Nau do Gyarah--Barsaat Ki Raat era. Personally I feel it was this
troika of OPN, SDB and Roshan who really knew how to get the best out of Rafi.
It was the way they used his voice to fit the Guru Dutt's and the Dev Anand's
which launched him into being the voice of Dilip, Dev, & Shammi Kapoor initally
& later on--Rajendra Kumar all at the same time. Had he remained under Naushad,
he would have probably been an also ran and become a one actor voice/singer like
Mukesh is known today as--"the voice of Raj Kapoor".
Post 1969 and Aradhana ofcourse he was a "never ran". :) And hey I am entitled a
dig considering I spent one whole post(Gasp!) praising him.
Ketan
Sathya
prejudiced I accept - I cannot accept that the Aar Paar songs are
SERIOUS numbers in the true sense of the word. I mean - one cannot say
that OPN composed "Sun sun sun balma" and "Mujhe dekho hasrat" in a
similar vein. And yes, you might be correct in saying that Rafi might
have sung 200 songs in the period mentioned. But I stick to my belief
that it is the quality and the quantity which matters. And there is no
point bringing in KISHORE KUMAR (of all people) when discussing
QUALITY music and that too in the 50s. Can you mention one Kishore
Kumar song in the 50-55 period for Roshan that merits comparison with
something like Mukesh's "Teri duniya me" or Talat's "Kisi surat lagi
dil ki". I mean, Kishore was nowhere in the picture (exc for the
Burmans) thru the 50s and 60s. He certainly survived ONLY because of
them. Coming back to Rafi, well, if you look att the list of Rafi
non-likeers, you would find the list pretty long - though the
composers did use him often enough. Composersxs like Anil Biswas,
C.Ramchandra, Salil Chowdhury, Vasant Desai, Vinod etc were all in
that group. It was in that light that I mentioned that Rafi survived
only because of Naushad. As to his singing for the Burman, I refrain
form comments. Perhaps my tastes are not good enough.
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<9f3g7...@drn.newsguy.com>...
ravikrishna...@my-deja.com
>Post 1969 and Aradhana ofcourse he was a "never ran". :) And
>hey I am entitled a dig considering I spent one whole post(Gasp!)
>praising him.
In the 1980 Binaca Geet Mala annual hit parade, Rafi and Kishore Kumar
had same number of songs.
I think by 1977/78 Rafi was back thanks to LP.
RK-
Sanjeev Kumar
And to RD - remember Hum Kissese Kam Nahim.
Ket...@att.net
sathyana...@infy.com says...
>Well, I agree with most views you have expressed. But - yes, I am
>prejudiced I accept - I cannot accept that the Aar Paar songs are
>SERIOUS numbers in the true sense of the word. I mean - one cannot say
>that OPN composed "Sun sun sun balma" and "Mujhe dekho hasrat" in a
Does something have to be a serious number to judge a singer's quality of
singing and his versatility? If anything this lack of supposed seriousness in
music composition is probably what makes OPN's music far more appealing than
Naushad's.
>similar vein. And yes, you might be correct in saying that Rafi might
>have sung 200 songs in the period mentioned. But I stick to my belief
My source was Ajit Pradhan's book on Rafi--Mere Geet Tumhare which gives a
complete listing of all Rafi songs.
>that it is the quality and the quantity which matters. And there is no
>point bringing in KISHORE KUMAR (of all people) when discussing
>QUALITY music and that too in the 50s. Can you mention one Kishore
>Kumar song in the 50-55 period for Roshan that merits comparison with
>something like Mukesh's "Teri duniya me" or Talat's "Kisi surat lagi
Pointless discussing this isn't it. I find the Maalkin songs quite good. You
don't. It's subjective and a matter of taste. It's no secret that Talat and
Mukesh were favourites of Roshan right until about the 57-58 period. It is only
then that Rafi overtakes them in # of songs sung for Roshan. So sticking to Rafi
and not bringing in Mukesh/Talat, it is a fact that Roshan preferred even
Kishore to Rafi. Are you saying Roshan did not know quality music?
>dil ki". I mean, Kishore was nowhere in the picture (exc for the
>Burmans) thru the 50s and 60s. He certainly survived ONLY because of
Really?
>them. Coming back to Rafi, well, if you look att the list of Rafi
>non-likeers, you would find the list pretty long - though the
>composers did use him often enough. Composersxs like Anil Biswas,
Contradiction? They disliked Rafi but used him often enough too?
>C.Ramchandra, Salil Chowdhury, Vasant Desai, Vinod etc were all in
>that group. It was in that light that I mentioned that Rafi survived
>only because of Naushad. As to his singing for the Burman, I refrain
>form comments. Perhaps my tastes are not good enough.
Maybe they aren't. But then you like Rafi. Need I say more. :)
Ketan
Sathya
> In article <a8ca9910.01053...@posting.google.com>,
> sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
> >Well, I agree with most views you have expressed. But - yes, I am
> >prejudiced I accept - I cannot accept that the Aar Paar songs are
> >SERIOUS numbers in the true sense of the word. I mean - one cannot say
> >that OPN composed "Sun sun sun balma" and "Mujhe dekho hasrat" in a
>
> Does something have to be a serious number to judge a singer's quality of
> singing and his versatility? If anything this lack of supposed seriousness in
> music composition is probably what makes OPN's music far more appealing than
> Naushad's.
>
ahead of Asha right through ? Asha might have "Jhumka gira re", Lata
had "Naino me badra chaye". Now, the song might have been popular -
but .. I think you would have got the point.
> >similar vein. And yes, you might be correct in saying that Rafi might
> >have sung 200 songs in the period mentioned. But I stick to my belief
>
> My source was Ajit Pradhan's book on Rafi--Mere Geet Tumhare which gives a
> complete listing of all Rafi songs.
>
> >that it is the quality and the quantity which matters. And there is no
> >point bringing in KISHORE KUMAR (of all people) when discussing
> >QUALITY music and that too in the 50s. Can you mention one Kishore
> >Kumar song in the 50-55 period for Roshan that merits comparison with
> >something like Mukesh's "Teri duniya me" or Talat's "Kisi surat lagi
>
> Pointless discussing this isn't it. I find the Maalkin songs quite good. You
> don't. It's subjective and a matter of taste. It's no secret that Talat and
> Mukesh were favourites of Roshan right until about the 57-58 period. It is only
> then that Rafi overtakes them in # of songs sung for Roshan. So sticking to Rafi
> and not bringing in Mukesh/Talat, it is a fact that Roshan preferred even
> Kishore to Rafi. Are you saying Roshan did not know quality music?
>
封VEry pointless indeed. Didnt want to bring it up - I am sorry for
that. But I couldn digest seeing KISHORE KUMAR's name out there. I am
in no way hinting at Roshan's lack of quality of music - but something
like "Meri nazar shanti flat" (in Humlog I think) does not merit any
discussion. And FYI, Rafi rendered some magnificent solos for Roshan
in that periond. I think it was Chandni Chowk which had "Ab woh dilli
ki galiyan kahan".
> >dil ki". I mean, Kishore was nowhere in the picture (exc for the
> >Burmans) thru the 50s and 60s. He certainly survived ONLY because of
>
> Really?
>
封Very really.
> >them. Coming back to Rafi, well, if you look att the list of Rafi
> >non-likeers, you would find the list pretty long - though the
> >composers did use him often enough. Composersxs like Anil Biswas,
>
> Contradiction? They disliked Rafi but used him often enough too?
封No contradictions at all. The word "often" does not indicate the
TYPE of songs they sung. Where Rafi would have "Baap bada na bhaiya"
or "Paise ki lottery" or something, it would be Talat who would be
rendering "Mohobbat me aese zamane bhi aaye". No disputes over Rafi's
versatality - but certainly Quality matters.
>
> >C.Ramchandra, Salil Chowdhury, Vasant Desai, Vinod etc were all in
> >that group. It was in that light that I mentioned that Rafi survived
> >only because of Naushad. As to his singing for the Burman, I refrain
> >form comments. Perhaps my tastes are not good enough.
>
> Maybe they aren't. But then you like Rafi. Need I say more. :)
>
>
封 Well, I certainly do not dislike Rafi. I am sorry if I have given
that impression - but I cannot fathom how you can claim Rafi to have
been developed by OPN and SDB. Thats beyond me. Anyway, each for his
own views.
>
> Ketan
Ket...@att.net
>封I certainly believe so. And why do you think Lata was always a step
>ahead of Asha right through ? Asha might have "Jhumka gira re", Lata
>had "Naino me badra chaye". Now, the song might have been popular -
>but .. I think you would have got the point.
Asha also has a much more serious and introspective love ballad in "Tera dil
kahan hai" from the below mentioned Roshan and Chandni Chowk. As compared to
that Lata had a more popular and a much lighter and joyous "Thandi hawayen" and
"Rahen na rahen hum". 3 songs--same basic tune. The best comparison I can give
you. So going by what you say, Asha was not just a step but a whole furlong
ahead. Right?
The danger in accepting your views is that by your logic, Mukesh might be called
the greatest singer ever, and no, I am not even confusing the word SAD with
SERIOUS songs here. Mukesh rarely ever was considered for your light/frothy type
of songs. Yes he has a "jap jap jap re", which is bad in terms of composition
and singing. But I can't imagine him doing a "jaane kahan mera jigar gaya ji".
>封VEry pointless indeed. Didnt want to bring it up - I am sorry for
>that. But I couldn digest seeing KISHORE KUMAR's name out there. I am
>in no way hinting at Roshan's lack of quality of music - but something
>like "Meri nazar shanti flat" (in Humlog I think) does not merit any
>discussion. And FYI, Rafi rendered some magnificent solos for Roshan
>in that periond. I think it was Chandni Chowk which had "Ab woh dilli
>ki galiyan kahan".
Rafi did not render MANY magnificent solos in that period for Roshan. I have
gone thru the Geet Kosh and you are welcome to do so. Till Maalkin, Rafi had a
total of 3-4 songs with Roshan i.e between 1949 and 1954. Then he had 2-3 more
duets in Maalkin(2 of them with Kishore). It was only from Chhora Chhori in
1955, that Rafi finally seemed to come onto Roshan's radar and even then it was
only in 1957 or so that he overtook Mukesh in the # of songs for Roshan. His
total output in the end was 90 songs for Roshan--about 36 of them solos.
>> Contradiction? They disliked Rafi but used him often enough too?
>
>封No contradictions at all. The word "often" does not indicate the
>TYPE of songs they sung. Where Rafi would have "Baap bada na bhaiya"
>or "Paise ki lottery" or something, it would be Talat who would be
>rendering "Mohobbat me aese zamane bhi aaye". No disputes over Rafi's
>versatality - but certainly Quality matters.
Another post--another thread on whether quality of singing can only be judged if
you sing a particular type of song. In any case you are confirming the original
purpose of this thread, which was my saying that Talat was the # 1 singer in the
late 40's-early 50's.
>封 Well, I certainly do not dislike Rafi. I am sorry if I have given
>that impression - but I cannot fathom how you can claim Rafi to have
>been developed by OPN and SDB. Thats beyond me. Anyway, each for his
>own views.
Nope...I meant created and developed maybe by Naushad. But IMHO, it was
OPN-SDB-Roshan who expanded his range, creativity, versatility and made him the
# 1 singer. Naushad despite having him as his # 1 boy, could not do much for him
in a direct competition with Talat(as you yourself point out above), till OPN
came in and took over. If Kishore-RDB post Aradhana were responsible for Rafi's
musical demise, then it was Rafi-OPN who were responsible for Talat gradually
being sidelined to # 2. For Talat, the downhill ride was much slower than it was
for Rafi, so there never was a feeling of an overnight coup as was the case in
1969.
Ketan
Sathya
> >ahead of Asha right through ? Asha might have "Jhumka gira re", Lata
> >had "Naino me badra chaye". Now, the song might have been popular -
> >but .. I think you would have got the point.
>
> Asha also has a much more serious and introspective love ballad in "Tera dil
> kahan hai" from the below mentioned Roshan and Chandni Chowk. As compared to
> that Lata had a more popular and a much lighter and joyous "Thandi hawayen" and
> "Rahen na rahen hum". 3 songs--same basic tune. The best comparison I can give
> you. So going by what you say, Asha was not just a step but a whole furlong
> ahead. Right?
>
> The danger in accepting your views is that by your logic, Mukesh might be called
> the greatest singer ever, and no, I am not even confusing the word SAD with
> SERIOUS songs here. Mukesh rarely ever was considered for your light/frothy type
> of songs. Yes he has a "jap jap jap re", which is bad in terms of composition
> and singing. But I can't imagine him doing a "jaane kahan mera jigar gaya ji".
>
> >that. But I couldn digest seeing KISHORE KUMAR's name out there. I am
> >in no way hinting at Roshan's lack of quality of music - but something
> >like "Meri nazar shanti flat" (in Humlog I think) does not merit any
> >discussion. And FYI, Rafi rendered some magnificent solos for Roshan
> >in that periond. I think it was Chandni Chowk which had "Ab woh dilli
> >ki galiyan kahan".
>
> Rafi did not render MANY magnificent solos in that period for Roshan. I have
> gone thru the Geet Kosh and you are welcome to do so. Till Maalkin, Rafi had a
> total of 3-4 songs with Roshan i.e between 1949 and 1954. Then he had 2-3 more
> duets in Maalkin(2 of them with Kishore). It was only from Chhora Chhori in
> 1955, that Rafi finally seemed to come onto Roshan's radar and even then it was
> only in 1957 or so that he overtook Mukesh in the # of songs for Roshan. His
> total output in the end was 90 songs for Roshan--about 36 of them solos.
>
> >> Contradiction? They disliked Rafi but used him often enough too?
> >
> >TYPE of songs they sung. Where Rafi would have "Baap bada na bhaiya"
> >or "Paise ki lottery" or something, it would be Talat who would be
> >rendering "Mohobbat me aese zamane bhi aaye". No disputes over Rafi's
> >versatality - but certainly Quality matters.
>
> Another post--another thread on whether quality of singing can only be judged if
> you sing a particular type of song. In any case you are confirming the original
> purpose of this thread, which was my saying that Talat was the # 1 singer in the
> late 40's-early 50's.
>
> >that impression - but I cannot fathom how you can claim Rafi to have
> >been developed by OPN and SDB. Thats beyond me. Anyway, each for his
> >own views.
>
> Nope...I meant created and developed maybe by Naushad. But IMHO, it was
> OPN-SDB-Roshan who expanded his range, creativity, versatility and made him the
> # 1 singer. Naushad despite having him as his # 1 boy, could not do much for him
> in a direct competition with Talat(as you yourself point out above), till OPN
> came in and took over. If Kishore-RDB post Aradhana were responsible for Rafi's
> musical demise, then it was Rafi-OPN who were responsible for Talat gradually
> being sidelined to # 2. For Talat, the downhill ride was much slower than it was
> for Rafi, so there never was a feeling of an overnight coup as was the case in
> 1969.
>
>
> Ketan
SAT : First, I do not believe Roshan to have done anything to improve
Rafi's standing or vocals. Roshan's second and more fruitful innings
began with "Barsaat ki raat" in 1960, by which time Rafi was
well-established and accepted as the top singer around. It was in turn
Roshan who depended on Rafi more as the years went by- his
compositions in Taj Mahal or Chitralekha could have been rendered only
by Rafi. OPN could switch over to Mahendra Kapoor when he had a
dispute with Rafi - that was because his compositions had that
seperate style to it which was not all-melody. OPN, you say developed
and expanded Rafi's vocals. Naushad had LITTLE to do with Rafi's no 1
slot ? Well.......
Taking a tangent, Asha was never no 1 at any time. And today she just
talks of RDB in all her interviews - where would she have been but for
OPN ? But no, not a mention of OPN is made in her interviews. I
believe that this mentor-sort of relationship between composer and
singer was all important in establishment of singer. The Naushad-Rafi,
Anil Biswas-Talat, C.Ramchandra-Lata, Naushad-Lata, OPN-Asha ... were
all ver critical factors in the respective singers establishing
themselves. Yes - I do believe in serious msuic. Yes, I do prefer
Mukesh to Rafi - I believe Talat and Mukesh to have been our finest
singers. They sang from their soul which reached out to yours - Rafi
was rarely capable of such an accomplishment.
As to Asha-Lata, one song doesnt make a thousand.
ravikrishna...@my-deja.com
"Sathya" <sathyana...@infy.com> wrote in message
... snipped.
sathya and ketan.
This is the most informative/interesting thread I have
read in years. Hats off to both of you.
regards.
RK-
Ket...@att.net
<ravikrishna...@my-deja.com says...
I think I am more shocked by the fact that I am standing up for Rafi on RMIM. :)
I will never live this one down.
Ketan
krn
wrote:
>
>And to RD - remember Hum Kissese Kam Nahim.
Was n't Hum Kissese Kam Nahin\ a Nasir Hussain Production? For Whom
Rafi Had given very many songs then for RD. Do You think the Credit
goes to NH and not to RD?
( I may be Wrong.)
KamlesN/
VSR...@mailandnews.com
Interesting point. What do people think about it.
For a good song, who gets the credit, Singer, MD, lyricist, Film
Director, Producer.....
Which films NH made after Zamane ko dikhana hai? WHo got the credits.
Among all of his movies, I liked Baharo.n ke sapne music the best.
unless I am not able to recall some of his films of hand.
-Rawat
krn
>krn wrote:
>
>Interesting point. What do people think about it.
>
>For a good song, who gets the credit, Singer, MD, lyricist, Film
>Director, Producer.....
>
>Which films NH made after Zamane ko dikhana hai? WHo got the credits.
>
>Among all of his movies, I liked Baharo.n ke sapne music the best.
>unless I am not able to recall some of his films of hand.
>
>-Rawat
>
Dil Deke Dekho
Jab Pyar Kisise Hota Hai(DevAnand, AshaParekh)
Teesari Manzil
Carvan
Hum Kisise Kum Nahin
Yadon Ki Baraat
Zamane Ko Dikhana Hai
And many More are nasir Hussain Starrers.
In Jab Pyar Kissise Hota hai Days NH was using SJ as Md
Then Teesari Manzil, carvan, HKKN, Yadon ki ...Had RD as MD.
Thnks.
But you did not say anything about Tum bin songs?
KamlesN/
Sathya
Dont worry Ketan - I didnt think you were too "for-Rafi" to cause consternation.
Thanks for the great time.
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<9fb0f...@drn.newsguy.com>...
VSR...@mailandnews.com
Hi Kamlesh,
I was the first one to mention "tum bin" on this group. Just a fortnight
ago, I posted about Jagjit singh's gazal in this film.
Music is far better than ek rishta and yaadein.
-Rawat
Balaji Murthy
I am not sure Kamlesh is saying NH gets credit for the quality of Rafi's
singing, rather it is he who should get credit for resurrecting Rafi's career
instead of RDB.
- Balaji
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> >
> >And to RD - remember Hum Kissese Kam Nahim.
>
> Was n't Hum Kissese Kam Nahin\ a Nasir Hussain Production? For Whom
> Rafi Had given very many songs then for RD. Do You think the Credit
> goes to NH and not to RD?
> ( I may be Wrong.)
I consider the credit for the success of a musical score goes to the
music director, 99%. The rest goes to others - producer, singers etc.
krn
wrote:
>krn wrote:
Here All I was trying to say is that Other than NH films RD did not
make a good use of Rafi. (Like Balaji Mentioned correctly in the
thread). If it was a non NH/RD combination film and there is a good
Rafi song in only RD film, I would definitly give all credits to the
MD as well as the singer.
{BTW R there any Such Rafi /RD songs? Let me find out. I may be
posting it later. But This can be a good quiz for RD Bhakts' :-)}
Good use means Not many good songs by the Rafi and RD duo.
Puyar Ka Mausam was another NH/RD/Rafi Film. although
I liked KK version of the Tum Bin song. ( I like Rafi over KK
normally.)
Thanks.
KamlesN/
Ket...@att.net
>Here All I was trying to say is that Other than NH films RD did not
>make a good use of Rafi. (Like Balaji Mentioned correctly in the
>thread). If it was a non NH/RD combination film and there is a good
>Rafi song in only RD film, I would definitly give all credits to the
>MD as well as the singer.
>
>{BTW R there any Such Rafi /RD songs? Let me find out. I may be
>posting it later. But This can be a good quiz for RD Bhakts' :-)}
Will save you the trouble. The LoRD does have plenty of good, non-Nasir Hussain
songs with Rafi. Considering the LoRD had to work with such a huge
handicap(Rafi's voice), the results in the end are quite stunning at times.
Mela has a good but very LPish "Rut Hai Milan ki saathi mere aare" and a nice
"Gori ke haath main"
Pyar Ki Kahani has a good "Koi aur duniya main" .
Waris has one of the loveliest duets composed by RD--"lehrake aaya hain, jhoka
bahar ka".
Abhilasha has a good "Waadiyan mera daman"
The Burning Train has " 2 duets--with Asha "Pal do pal ka saath hamara" and with
Kishore, Asha and Usha, a quartet "Pehli nazar main humne apna"
Kasme Vaade has "Mile jo kadi kadi" with Kishore and Asha
Abdullah has "Maine poocha chand se"
Chandan Ka Palna has an average solo "Tumhe dekha hai" and duet "Zulfon ko aap"
Mukti's "Pyaar hai ik nishan qadmon ka" is decent.
Humshakal has a passable duet with Lata "Kahe ko bulaya mujhe balma"
Aaj Ki Raat has a beautiful "Champa khili daar"
Chhote Nawab has 2 very nice songs "Aaj hua mera dil matwala", & "Matwali aakhon
waale"
The Great Gambler has a duet "Rakkasa mera naam" which is a lovely song but
Rafi's voice sounds shot to pieces.
The piece de resistance in RD-Rafi for me is from Chhalia(Navin Nischol's not
Raj Kapoor's). The song in question is "Aye jan-e-wafa aisa bhi kya tum to
khafa..". IMHO, any other MD would have tuned these Rajinder Krishan lyrics into
a ghazal or a nice romantic roothna-manana song. RD I think showed remarkable
audacity to tune it into a fast paced song. The guitar work in this song is
mind-blowing and very similar to what one hears in RD-Kishore's Samadhi song
"Jaan-e-jaana jao kal phir aana".
I haven't listed many more RD-Rafi songs. Not all of them are good. Some are
even outright horrible--the ones in Raaton Ka Raaja for example. Not RD's fault
ofcourse. See above made mention of working with a serious handicap. :)
Ketan
Surajit A. Bose
>
> >Here All I was trying to say is that Other than NH films RD did not
> >make a good use of Rafi. (Like Balaji Mentioned correctly in the
> >thread). If it was a non NH/RD combination film and there is a good
> >Rafi song in only RD film, I would definitly give all credits to the
> >MD as well as the singer.
Well there's the Rafi-Lata duet from THE TRAIN: mujhase bhalaa ye
kaajal teraa, nain base din rain, ni soNiye ...
-s
Ket...@att.net
Better still there is "gulabi aakhen jo teri dekhi, sharabi yeh dil ho gaya"
from THE TRAIN.
Ketan
krn
bla
bla
bla.
.
.
>I haven't listed many more RD-Rafi songs. Not all of them are good. Some are
>even outright horrible--the ones in Raaton Ka Raaja for example. Not RD's fault
>ofcourse. See above made mention of working with a serious handicap. :)
>
>
>Ketan
good try Ketan,
Let me make it clear, that I am not a RD basher. I Like Many
of his song compositions. Especially with Lata. And to a certain
extent with Asha. Lata's Padosan/Aandhi songs are enough for examples.
i know there R many more.
But here didnot you see the obvious? Just compare the songs
that you mentioned, with the Rafi songs for RD/NH songs.
I simply dislike the idea that, whenever a song is a hit,
that is because of MY favotire MD and for a flop or not so nice one it
is because of the singer.(CUZ i just do not like that particular
singer, or I like some other singer over him.) So all the popular/hit
by KK the credit goes to RD and only RD???
I think
Gulabi Aankhein....... The Train
Kabhi Kabhi Aisa bhi.... Waris
Lahrake aaya Hai .... Waris
Wadiyan Mera... Abhilasha
Rekha O Rekha.. Adhikar
Rut Hai Mela
Are the only noticable songs that people can still remember at times.
Other than that most non NH RD-Rafi songs are Just better not
remembered. (I am happy that for whatever reason you put some so so
songs of Rafi in Good songs category. Keep it up. Your test is being
changed for a better one for last few postings. ....:-) ).
I know and agree with the argument that a good songs credit should
first go to the MD. But there are certain entities, like V. Shantaram,
RajKapoor, Nasir Hussain, Subhash Ghai, etc. MD is there but more
credit or even discredit should go to these people first, and then the
MD/Singer should be considered. These people were more active and
concerned about the music of their films. They were musically educated
personalities, and may be they had a MD for the film to reduce their
workload, like a director has an assistant director. Here I am
talking about RK & V. Shantaram. I do not know whether NH was
musically educated or not. But looking at the songs of his films,
rather hit and popular songs over the years, with any MDs, anybody can
say that He was taking a good care of his music department, and wanted
his MD to give hit and popular music ( and so songs as we know for
hindi films.)....
( Contd.)
gtg, let me post this much. I will be back.
(can some one help me with more NH- SJ combination movies
PLEASE>>>Ashokji, SKalraji...)
Thanks.
KamlesN/
Ket...@att.net
> But here didnot you see the obvious? Just compare the songs
>that you mentioned, with the Rafi songs for RD/NH songs.
> I simply dislike the idea that, whenever a song is a hit,
>that is because of MY favotire MD and for a flop or not so nice one it
>is because of the singer.(CUZ i just do not like that particular
>singer, or I like some other singer over him.) So all the popular/hit
>by KK the credit goes to RD and only RD???
I thought anyone with an iota of intelligence would recognize sarcasm when they
read it. I guess not. It is obvious that I don't blame Rafi for all of RD's bad
songs--RD very much has a hand in it too. The statements bashing Rafi were
merely made to yank the chain of a few Rafians. As for the public only
remembering a few songs, I can understand why. I had not even noticed the
brilliant song in Chhalia till HMV finally released the CD.
Ketan
VSR...@mailandnews.com
Apart from the about sweet song from "The Train", one of the melodious
Lata song pops to my mind.
"Kis liye maine pyaar kiya".
RD was great versatile that he gave loud, pop hare rama hare krishna,
mehbooba mehbooba, and heeraaaaaaaaaaa tara tara tara.
and simultaneously gave such melodious songs.
Thanks for sharing that It was a NH film. What a stupid story of helen
wearing nanda's mask.
-Rawat
Surajit Bose
wrote:
> Thanks for sharing that It was a NH film. What a stupid story of helen
> wearing nanda's mask.
The point was that The Train is an RD-Rafi movie withOUT Nasir Husain.
-s
sajjadmq
You actually thinks "Considering the RD had to work with such a
huge
handicap(Rafi's voice)". You sound like a One BIG Idiot!
If you think Rafi saab's voice is handicap, then you need to get your
head/ear examined!!!
I am sorry/sad to say, you have NO taste in GOOD music!!!! Rafi saab
was/is the GREATEST SINGER EVER LIVED OR INDIA EVER PRODUCED!!!
RD'S OR SD'S AND OTHER CAN BE BORN, BUT RAFI SAAB IS ONE IN A
CENTURIES!!!
Before you make nonsense satements, think - you are coming acrross
like a big prejudice A@@hole!!!
Sajjad
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<1702680.00...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Ket...@att.net
says...
>If you think Rafi saab's voice is handicap, then you need to get your
>head/ear examined!!!
Gladly. Would you pay for the medical expenses? In the US a free checkup is
worth more than winning a lottery.
<Rest of nonsense deleted>
Yawn! Wondering why people don't read before they post. That includes articles
on why RD thought Rafi was a handicap for him too.
Ketan
sajjadmq
ALL THE MD'S SURVIVED BECAUSE OF RAFI!
RAFI WAS/IS THE MOST VERSITILE SINGER OF ALL TIMES. TALAT CAN ONLY
SING MELLOW SONGS, MUKESH WAS GOOD IN SAD SONGS, HEMANT AND MANNA BOTH
HAD VERY BAD ACCENTS TO SING ANYTHING OTHER THEN SEMI-CLASSICAL.
KISHORE WAS ONLY CALLED FOR FUNNY SONGS. IT WAS
RAFI WHO CAN FIT INTO ANY MOOD WHICH IS CREATED BY THE MD OF THOSE
DAYS. I CAN LIST TENS OF SONGS OF RAFI/ROSHAN COMBS VS KISHORE/ROSHAN.
I THINK THIS KETAN GUY DOES NOT LIKE RAFI SAAB, AND HE MAKES UP ALL
THIS STUPID STATEMENT JUST TO MAKE RAFI LOOK BAD.
THE PEOPLE WHO IS AGREEING WITH THIS, DOES NOT KNOW JACK ABOUT THE
INDIAN MUSIC
BESIDES RAFI SAAB, ALL OTHER SINGERS WERE USED PART TIME!!! RAFI IS
STILL REMEMBERD TO THIS DAY.
SAJJAD
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<9f3g7...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> In article <a8ca9910.01052...@posting.google.com>,
> sathyana...@infy.com says...
> >
> >I think that if one looks at the musical compositions between 1950 -
> >1955, you would find that Talat certainly was the top singer of the
> >time. Rafi in those years, was either restricted to the
> >Naushad-music-room or got the few duets and faster songs that Talat
> >rejected.
>
> IMHO, Your statement is both right and wrong at the same time. If you look at
> the musical compositions, Talat seems to have been the first choice of MD's.
> However to say that Rafi was restricted to the Naushad room or duets is not true
> either. Between 1944 and 1953, Rafi sang close to 200 solos.
>
> >It is also fair to say that Rafi survived and rose ONLY due to
> >Naushad. In those early 50s, Naushad was THE composer. C.Ramchandra,
> >Husnalal Bhagatram, Anil Biswas and even Shankar jaikishan who were
> >the other top composers of the day in terms of hits, were all
> >Talat-preferers. Not that they dodnt do anything with Rafi - but their
> >finest compositions were reserved for Talat.
>
> IMHO, Again your statement is true and false. To say Rafi survived because of
> Naushad is true, however I would say Rafi rose because of OPN. It was OPN, who
> got Rafi from Aar-Paar onwards to really get out of the droning dull voice that
> he sang in for Naushad and really opened up the skies for him. Sure, others had
> used Rafi earlier too for lively songs(Roshan in Maalkin for one) but somehow
> Kishore seems to have been preferred to Rafi for the fun songs between 1948 and
> 1953. Till 1955, Kishore had more songs with Roshan than Rafi did.
>
> >IMO, Talat was the top singer till around 55. Uran Khatola was one
> >turning point when Rafi emerged as Dilip Kumar's voice - and stuck.
> >And the next major turning point occured with "Madhumati" in 58 where
> >Mukesh made a brilliant comeback. Talat faded away after that.
> >In conclusion, 50-55 : Talat
> >55 - 58 : (IMO) Tie between Rafi, Manna Dey and Talat
> >Post-58 : Rafi
>
> I would say Rafi's second coming was in Aar Paar(1954) and third coming was in
> the Pyaasa--Nau do Gyarah--Barsaat Ki Raat era. Personally I feel it was this
> troika of OPN, SDB and Roshan who really knew how to get the best out of Rafi.
> It was the way they used his voice to fit the Guru Dutt's and the Dev Anand's
> which launched him into being the voice of Dilip, Dev, & Shammi Kapoor initally
> & later on--Rajendra Kumar all at the same time. Had he remained under Naushad,
> he would have probably been an also ran and become a one actor voice/singer like
> Mukesh is known today as--"the voice of Raj Kapoor".
>
> Post 1969 and Aradhana ofcourse he was a "never ran". :) And hey I am entitled a
> dig considering I spent one whole post(Gasp!) praising him.
>
>
> Ketan
Ket...@att.net
>As usual another idiotic statement: Rafi survived because of Naushad.
>I THINK THIS KETAN GUY DOES NOT LIKE RAFI SAAB, AND HE MAKES UP ALL
>THIS STUPID STATEMENT JUST TO MAKE RAFI LOOK BAD.
Gee..however did you guess that? Was it really THAT obvious? And why would I
ever make up statements to make Rafi look bad. He had a voice that anyway did
that job for him.
>THE PEOPLE WHO IS AGREEING WITH THIS, DOES NOT KNOW JACK ABOUT THE
And you know Jill about net etiquette and writing in CAPS.
>BESIDES RAFI SAAB, ALL OTHER SINGERS WERE USED PART TIME!!! RAFI IS
>STILL REMEMBERD TO THIS DAY.
He sure is remembered--so that no one repeats his mistakes.
>SAJJAD
Does the name Sajjad go hand in hand with being rude?
Ketan
:)
Sathya
statement ? It was I who said that Rafi grew only because of Naushad.
And if thinking so makes me a music dunce, so be it - rather than
living in illusions like some others. Dear mate, had there been no
Naushad, there would have been no Rafi.
As to his versatality - indeed, yes. But he had a hand everywhere,
without being an expert anywhere. Ask him to render something like
"Shame gham ki kasam", or "Bhooli hui yaadein" or "Laga Chunari me
daag" or "Zindagi kitni khoobsoorat hai" with the same brilliance as
the originals.
Rafi was a fine singer no doubt - but not so outstanding as has been
hyped. And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
Sathya
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<1950645.00...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Ket...@att.net
sathyana...@infy.com says...
>And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
>composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
>knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
My statement had nothing to do with the composer's musical abilities, of which I
am in open-mouthed awe of. It had to do with the similarities in behaviour
between that Sajjad and this one. Posting in caps is rude and such public
rudeness was supposedly a feature of the composer's behaviour too.
As an aside, Sajjad the composer was supposed to have been a wonderful mandolin
player. His son, Nasir Sajjad Hussain, was recently in the US giving mandolin
performances which I sadly missed. Are there any recordings available of either
father or son?
Ketan
Arun Sampath
<Ket...@att.net> wrote in message
In any case you are confirming the original
> purpose of this thread, which was my saying that Talat was the # 1 singer
in the
> late 40's-early 50's.
I am still not convinced that Talat was indeed considered No.1 during the
said period. I am not saying you or Vijay or Sathya are wrong. You might
well be right. This just comes as big news to me and that by itself doesn't
necessarily make it not true. I haven't read or heard anywhere that he was
considered the No.1 at some point of time except of course from you three
here. I have seen "Ghazhal king" being widely attributed to him. Golden
voice, velvet voice, voice of romanticism etc are some others. But No.1,
never. Not any of the articles, interviews, post death articles, and not
even the web site dedicated to him mention that explicitly. But when you
read about Rafi or KK or Saigal, it comes so upfront and so clear. Anyway,
does anyone know how much money Rafi, Mukesh and Talat used to charge during
late 40s and early 50s? That should give some indication of the perceived
opinion those days. Also, it might be the case that there was no clear No.1
at that time with Rafi. Mukesh and Talat being the prime contenders.
A
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Hey Sajjad, why the heck are you pulling in Ketan for the Naushad
> statement ? It was I who said that Rafi grew only because of Naushad.
> And if thinking so makes me a music dunce, so be it - rather than
> living in illusions like some others. Dear mate, had there been no
> Naushad, there would have been no Rafi.
While I don't quite agree with the way Sajjad has put it, I agree that
he would have stagnated had it not been for the likes of OPN, Roshan,
and SDB (who I think was the SMARTEST about how to use Rafi's voice),
and for that matter the earlier SJ.
>
> As to his versatality - indeed, yes. But he had a hand everywhere,
> without being an expert anywhere. Ask him to render something like
> "Shame gham ki kasam", or "Bhooli hui yaadein" or "Laga Chunari me
> daag" or "Zindagi kitni khoobsoorat hai" with the same brilliance as
> the originals.
Not sure about "Laaga", but the others, YES he would have. To say that
he was an expert nowhere is a thoughtless remark - I take it to mean
you haven't listened carefully to much of his repertoire.
> Rafi was a fine singer no doubt - but not so outstanding as has been
> hyped.
By whom? He was quite outstanding...though Ketan is on the KK side of
the fence, I think even he will admit this.
> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
Not sure what this means.
>
> And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
> composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
> knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
I think that was the point - I'm pretty sure Ketan knows who Sajjad
Hussain was...and from all accounts, he was pretty rude (regardless of
his vast knowledge of music).
Sanjeev
krn
>My statement had nothing to do with the composer's musical abilities, of which I
>am in open-mouthed awe of. It had to do with the similarities in behaviour
>between that Sajjad and this one. Posting in caps is rude and such public
>rudeness was supposedly a feature of the composer's behaviour too.
>
>As an aside, Sajjad the composer was supposed to have been a wonderful mandolin
>player. His son, Nasir Sajjad Hussain, was recently in the US giving mandolin
>performances which I sadly missed. Are there any recordings available of either
>father or son?
I did not know that KETAN can be sometimes spelled as "Sajjad"
too?!!!!!!!! :-)
krn
wrote:
>sathyana...@infy.com (Sathya) wrote in message news:<a8ca9910.0106...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> As to his versatality - indeed, yes. But he had a hand everywhere,
>> without being an expert anywhere. Ask him to render something like
>> "Shame gham ki kasam", or "Bhooli hui yaadein" or "Laga Chunari me
>> daag" or "Zindagi kitni khoobsoorat hai" with the same brilliance as
>> the originals.
>
>Not sure about "Laaga", but the others,
I am staging "Nain Lad Gai hai to ", "Madhuban main..." against Laga
Chunarin main Daag.....
Was Talat able to sing any of the Rafi songs? Can you Imagine him
singing " O Duniya ke Rakhwale,,, Or Ye Ishq Ishq Hai..."???
NOPE./
Last week someone mentioned that Rafi was getting songs rejected by
Talat in his PRIME. What a Joke.! What was Talat's range? He was able
to sing only one or two type of songs and other than that
He was useless singer. I agree that public liked his songs but for a
monotonous style his life was a short span.
I have seen Mannaji on Zee TV saying all the good words for Rafi's
capabilities, at the same time it looked like that he wastrying to
keep himself out of trouble by not saying a word for KK. He just
ignored to make a comment about KK. ( as if he never took KK as a
serious competitor.)
This I observed when He was asked a question about his standing as a
main singer amongst others. You can watch that program on Zee, in case
they repeat it. I 've seen it twice. It was "The making of a Legend"
>> YES he would have. To say that
>he was an expert nowhere is a thoughtless remark - I take it to mean
>you haven't listened carefully to much of his repertoire.
>
>> Rafi was a fine singer no doubt - but not so outstanding as has been
>> hyped.
>
>By whom? He was quite outstanding...though Ketan is on the KK side of
>the fence, I think even he will admit this.
>
>> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
>
>Not sure what this means.
>
>>
>> And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
>> composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
>> knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
>
>I think that was the point - I'm pretty sure Ketan knows who Sajjad
>Hussain was...and from all accounts, he was pretty rude (regardless of
>his vast knowledge of music).
>
>Sanjeev
Is rudeness related to genious(ness)????
KamlesN/
Sathya
> On 8 Jun 2001 11:03:34 -0700, sanj...@aol.com (Sanjeev Ramabhadran)
> wrote:
>
> >sathyana...@infy.com (Sathya) wrote in message news:<a8ca9910.0106...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >>
> >> As to his versatality - indeed, yes. But he had a hand everywhere,
> >> without being an expert anywhere. Ask him to render something like
> >> "Shame gham ki kasam", or "Bhooli hui yaadein" or "Laga Chunari me
> >> daag" or "Zindagi kitni khoobsoorat hai" with the same brilliance as
> >> the originals.
> >
> >Not sure about "Laaga", but the others,
>
> I am staging "Nain Lad Gai hai to ", "Madhuban main..." against Laga
> Chunarin main Daag.....
> Was Talat able to sing any of the Rafi songs? Can you Imagine him
> singing " O Duniya ke Rakhwale,,, Or Ye Ishq Ishq Hai..."???
> NOPE./
...All this started off with an argument as to whether Rafi depended
on Naushad for his songs. Oh duniya ke rakhwale is a Naushad
composition - and Yeh ishq ishq hai came after Talat's slide had
started. And "Yeh ishq ishq hai" - IMO - was Manna Da - most of the
way. Rafi was great, Manna Da was greater and Roshan was greatest.
> Last week someone mentioned that Rafi was getting songs rejected by
> Talat in his PRIME. What a Joke.! What was Talat's range? He was able
> to sing only one or two type of songs and other than that
> He was useless singer. I agree that public liked his songs but for a
> monotonous style his life was a short span.
...Montonous ? Useless ? Extremely strong words - and strike me as
rather spiteful. His life was long enough - he outlived Rafi - and his
songs continue to live on today. Is it a coincidence that almost every
music lover I have met thus far, who is fixed in the 40s-50s music,
considers Talat the best ? Mind, I do not claim Talat to be the
greatest. But he was the finest exponent of Ghazals and
ghazal-numa-geets in our films. And if you want to put in a support
for Rafi, mention songs like "Yeh harat thio", "Zindagi bhar nahi
bhoolegi" etc rather than qawwalis and yahoos. Or do you feel that
these songs would sounded equally well, if not better,in Talat's voice
? I would rather have a 100 "Main paagal mera manwa paagal"s to one
"Yeh ishq ishq hai".
> I have seen Mannaji on Zee TV saying all the good words for Rafi's
> capabilities, at the same time it looked like that he wastrying to
> keep himself out of trouble by not saying a word for KK. He just
> ignored to make a comment about KK. ( as if he never took KK as a
> serious competitor.)
> This I observed when He was asked a question about his standing as a
> main singer amongst others. You can watch that program on Zee, in case
> they repeat it. I 've seen it twice. It was "The making of a Legend"
>
> >> YES he would have. To say that
> >he was an expert nowhere is a thoughtless remark - I take it to mean
> >you haven't listened carefully to much of his repertoire.
> >
> >> Rafi was a fine singer no doubt - but not so outstanding as has been
> >> hyped.
> >
> >By whom? He was quite outstanding...though Ketan is on the KK side of
> >the fence, I think even he will admit this.
> >
> >> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
> >
> >Not sure what this means.
> >
...It simply means what it conveys. That Kishore does not merit
consideration when you are talking of great musical voices. Lets
expand on the Rafis, the Talats, the Muskeshs - but please spare me
the Kishores. The yoogler may please be kept away when serious musical
discussion is on ! !!! Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
> >>
> >> And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
> >> composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
> >> knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
> >
> >I think that was the point - I'm pretty sure Ketan knows who Sajjad
> >Hussain was...and from all accounts, he was pretty rude (regardless of
> >his vast knowledge of music).
> >
> >Sanjeev
> Is rudeness related to genious(ness)????
>
> KamlesN/
... Sanjeev, I dont quite think you got the joke in that statement.
The earlier post was by a guy called SAJJAD. It was meant to be a joke
and not intended to question Ketan's knowledge of Sajjad (which I am
sure is vast enough).
And when u happen to be a genius like Sajjad, I guess u must allow
some eccentricities. How is that this man still inspires awe on the
basis of some 20 songs he has composed ? His genius is staggering.
Listen to his music - and you are in a different world. Good idea to
start off a seperate thread on him.
Sathya
Shyamal Pain
I think you are biased against Kishore. He did not have any classiscal
background , like Hemanta. But Kishore had the god given gift that
he could pick up any song after hearing it once. Both Dev Anand and
S.D.Burman realized his potential . After Aradhana, Kishore became
number one male singer . He did yodelling in some lighthearted songs.
But he was versatile singer -- equally competent at serious songs such
as Zindegi ke safar, Chingari koi bharke, Mushafir hun yaro, Tere mere
milan ke yeh raina, to name a few.
naniwadekar
Sathya <sathyana...@infy.com> wrote -
>
> ...It simply means what it conveys. That Kishore does not merit
> consideration when you are talking of great musical voices. Lets
> expand on the Rafis, the Talats, the Muskeshs - but please spare me
> the Kishores. The yoogler may please be kept away when serious musical
> discussion is on ! !!! Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
>
the lines of great voices failing to give great songs, but ordinary
voices managing to come up with great songs, etc etc.
But how about some light music-discussion?
I agree with you about Talat and Mukesh, and don't wish to be
spared Rafi, either. (I have just been listening to his 'o babu,
gali me teri chaand chamaka'; great stuff by Rafi for CR).
But I would pick Kishore above Rafi, whatever the quality
of his (KK's) musical voice. He shall not be kept away from the
discussion. Otoh, it is okay if *you* want to be spared KK.
>
> Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
>
I won't. I wish you a life long enough to allow you to realise that
Kishore can be part of musical discussion, even a SERIOUS one.
- nani
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> In article <a8ca9910.0106...@posting.google.com>,
> sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
> >And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
> >composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
> >knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
>
> My statement had nothing to do with the composer's musical abilities, of which I
> am in open-mouthed awe of. It had to do with the similarities in behaviour
> between that Sajjad and this one. Posting in caps is rude
as if people posting in smalls can't be rude.
>
> Ketan
-rawat
Sathya
...Thank you for your very generous intentions - but I wonder if the
Good God would permit me to live an eternity. Anyways, its not that I
do not consider Kishore to be a good singer - he is. But not one good
enough to merit comparison with the more SERIOUS singers. Some of his
songs like "Jagmag jagmag karta nikla", "Aa mohobbat ki basti", "Husn
bhi haui udas udas", "Panthi hoon main" are , to me, more exceptions
than the rule. But it might be because that I yet to see music beyond
the 50s that I have not yet managed to acknowledge Kishore's
credentials. I do not think I would be able to look at anything beyond
the 50s this lifetime - maybe the next...
Ket...@att.net
funny says...
>I did not know that KETAN can be sometimes spelled as "Sajjad"
>too?!!!!!!!! :-)
Well..no it doesn't. I cannot compose music as well as Sajjad the composer did,
so although you might try to confer that name on me, I humbly decline. Atleast
we know Kamlesh does not spell "funny". :)
And...
In article <3B21D65E...@MailAndNews.com>, VSRawat apparently having a bee
in his bonnet says...
>as if people posting in smalls can't be rude.
They can be as you have shown from time to time. Just that they are rude a lot
smaller.
Ketan
Ket...@att.net
sathyana...@infy.com says...
>> >> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
>> >Not sure what this means.
>...It simply means what it conveys. That Kishore does not merit
>consideration when you are talking of great musical voices. Lets
>expand on the Rafis, the Talats, the Muskeshs - but please spare me
>the Kishores. The yoogler may please be kept away when serious musical
>discussion is on ! !!! Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
Can you expand on why Kishore does not merit consideration?
>And when u happen to be a genius like Sajjad, I guess u must allow
>some eccentricities. How is that this man still inspires awe on the
>basis of some 20 songs he has composed ? His genius is staggering.
>Listen to his music - and you are in a different world. Good idea to
>start off a seperate thread on him.
Sajjad was a genius no doubt. However I am not sure that gives anyone a license
to be eccentric or rude. Salil was a genius too and I haven't heard/read of him
being rude.
In "Maestro with a Midas touch" article sathyana...@infy.com says...
>Well, that was rather an idiotic crack against Naushad saab. If you
>consider songs like "Bachpan ke din bhula na dena" or "Jhoole me pavan
>ki aayi bahar" or "Milte hi ankhen dil hua" or "Aayi sawan rut aai" or
>"Mera salaam leja" - and the many more as being lifeless, then it
>clearly underlines that you are a jazz-lover and hence a RDB-lover and
>do not understand the Naushadian compositions. Hence lets refrain from
>arguing on it
If as you say that just because someone is a jazz-lover, hence he must be an RDB
lover, I don't think YOU understand RDB compositions. From various other posts,
this quite confirms that your line of thinking is--
1)Only serious songs are worthy to be called songs
2)Only people who sing serious songs are worthy enough to be called
singers--hence Rafi/Kishore etc do not qualify and only Talat does.
3)Jazz music is not music.
Are you from North Korea? Or Afghanistan?
Ketan
krn
>In article <a8ca9910.01060...@posting.google.com>,
>sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
>>> >> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
>>> >Not sure what this means.
>
>
>If as you say that just because someone is a jazz-lover, hence he must be an RDB
>lover, I don't think YOU understand RDB compositions. From various other posts,
>this quite confirms that your line of thinking is--
>
>1)Only serious songs are worthy to be called songs
>2)Only people who sing serious songs are worthy enough to be called
>singers--hence Rafi/Kishore etc do not qualify and only Talat does.
>3)Jazz music is not music.
>
>Are you from North Korea? Or Afghanistan?
Ketan,
Sorry that I am going to ask you a history question.
What was the Birthplace of Aurangzeb, Son of Shajehan, the Moghul
Badshah?
{ ;-) } raised to the power of N.
>Ketan
KamleshN/
*/BTW Ketan I 100% agree with your statement about Old songs that we
listen to today are filtered ones. No body knows how many bad songs
Rafi/kk/Talat/etc had on their account. nThat was excellent post.
Ketan You R a Genious. (Likewise a sajjad!!!! )
/*
Ket...@att.net
>*/BTW Ketan I 100% agree with your statement about Old songs that we
>listen to today are filtered ones. No body knows how many bad songs
>Rafi/kk/Talat/etc had on their account. nThat was excellent post.
>Ketan You R a Genious. (Likewise a sajjad!!!! )
Dear Kamlesh,
Thanks for the recognition. Extremely sorry for being unable to return the
favour. Infact I can't even call you funny. But I can call you tiresome.
Ketan
Sathya
> On 9 Jun 2001 14:16:13 -0700, Ket...@att.net wrote:
>
> >In article <a8ca9910.01060...@posting.google.com>,
> >sathyana...@infy.com says...
> >
> >>> >> And as to Kishore.... ditch it.
> >>> >Not sure what this means.
> >
>
> >
> >If as you say that just because someone is a jazz-lover, hence he must be an RDB
> >lover, I don't think YOU understand RDB compositions. From various other posts,
> >this quite confirms that your line of thinking is--
> >
> >1)Only serious songs are worthy to be called songs
.... Good that you got it. Yes, I do not call "Main hoon jhumroo" and
"Yahoo" to be songs. I dont what you understand serious to be - I
consider "Yeh hai bambai meri jaan" to be a serious song ok - not
"Soorma mera nirala".
> >2)Only people who sing serious songs are worthy enough to be called
> >singers--hence Rafi/Kishore etc do not qualify and only Talat does.
.... No - I have never argued about Rafi. Rafi is indeed a great
singer - and one who can be discussed about. The argument was
regarding who made Rafi - I do not think that shows any acrimony
against Rafi. I refrain from comments about Kishore. Guys seem to be
much too sensitive out here.
> >3)Jazz music is not music.
.... For a guy reared on Hindustani music, Jazz is not music.
Apparently you are not- lucky you.
> >
> >Are you from North Korea? Or Afghanistan?
> Ketan,
> Sorry that I am going to ask you a history question.
> What was the Birthplace of Aurangzeb, Son of Shajehan, the Moghul
> Badshah?
> { ;-) } raised to the power of N.
> >Ketan
>
.... Well, I am from India. No idea about Aurangzeb - you may please
try your query at www.askjeeves.com for more accurate replies.
> KamleshN/
>
> */BTW Ketan I 100% agree with your statement about Old songs that we
> listen to today are filtered ones. No body knows how many bad songs
> Rafi/kk/Talat/etc had on their account. nThat was excellent post.
> Ketan You R a Genious. (Likewise a sajjad!!!! )
> /*
Let me acknowledge your genius too, Ketan.
As to filtering, how I wish we get more unfilterings. The filtering
you claim Kamlesh, is HMV's incompetence - so many precious melodies
have been robbed from us listeners. How many CR movies do we get today
? They released "Parchaian" - minus the wonderful "Dil dil se keh raha
hai" duet of Lata/Talat.
Any number of mails to HMV have failed to get any response. Can RMIM
do something about it ?
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> In article <cph2it0io6ch1a4f6...@4ax.com>, krn while trying to be
> funny says...
>
> >I did not know that KETAN can be sometimes spelled as "Sajjad"
> >too?!!!!!!!! :-)
>
> Well..no it doesn't. I cannot compose music as well as Sajjad the composer did,
> so although you might try to confer that name on me, I humbly decline. Atleast
> we know Kamlesh does not spell "funny". :)
>
> And...
>
> In article <3B21D65E...@MailAndNews.com>, VSRawat apparently having a bee
> in his bonnet says...
Guess the email-id of the bee in the bonnet.
>
> >as if people posting in smalls can't be rude.
>
> They can be as you have shown from time to time. Just that they are rude a lot
> smaller.
>
> Ketan
Oh thanks for feedback. Apologies for that.
I was thinking that you spilled it on me also, as I committed the sin of
joining in, when you were in the foul mood.
The interaction was going on well and fact-based, till you started
hammering that
fellow for petty technicality like posting in caps. Could you not get
any other point.
Take care.
-Rawat
VSR...@mailandnews.com
Good that you mentioned songs of KK so your mail got a weightage more
than a rant.
There are good songs of KK, there are bad songs of KK.
There are good songs of rafi, there are bad songs of rafi.
you can put any name, even ARR's. and the sentence will hold true.
burn your blood by picking bad song of either. or enjoy even if there is
only one good of any one.
Can Rafi/ talat become good only if stones are pelted on kishore.
and the nonSERIOUS tag.
I would say every song of KK was more serious than RAFI song;
"Nadiya ke paani mein, jawani dekho aag lagaati hai, badan mal mal ke
nahaati hai".
Why are Padosan's "Kehna hai" and sharmilee's "kaise kahen hum" not
serious songs. Not tear jeking but definitely serious.
-Rawat
Ket...@att.net
>> >1)Only serious songs are worthy to be called songs
>
>.... Good that you got it. Yes, I do not call "Main hoon jhumroo" and
>"Yahoo" to be songs. I dont what you understand serious to be - I
>consider "Yeh hai bambai meri jaan" to be a serious song ok - not
>"Soorma mera nirala".
Define "serious" then?
>.... No - I have never argued about Rafi. Rafi is indeed a great
>singer - and one who can be discussed about. The argument was
>regarding who made Rafi - I do not think that shows any acrimony
>against Rafi. I refrain from comments about Kishore. Guys seem to be
>much too sensitive out here.
Guys are sensitive about everything--Kishore, Rafi, Lata, Asha, Naushad, ARR
etc. However we are giving you an opportunity to state your views aren't we? You
still haven't answered, what you consider to be serious songs and why you
consider only certain singers to have it in them to sing. We can wait to rip you
apart, till a later date. :) However you may continue to hide behind excuses of
the kind "guys are too sensitive".
>> >3)Jazz music is not music.
>
>.... For a guy reared on Hindustani music, Jazz is not music.
>Apparently you are not- lucky you
Shankar-Jaikishan have an album only of jazz pieces composed in Hindustani
classical ragas such as Shivranjani, Kalavati, Bairagi etc. This album is called
Raga Jazz Style. I think that ends the argument about whether Hindustani and
Jazz can both be called music and whether they can co-exist.
>Any number of mails to HMV have failed to get any response. Can RMIM
>do something about it ?
Your naivete is amusing. HMV has no desire to fulfill your wishes. They are in a
business and as long as people thirst for rare songs, it is in their interests
to keep releasing each song of a movie thru 5 different collections, thus
ensuring that you buy all 5, to complete your collection of "Parchhain".
Ketan
Sathya
> In article <a8ca9910.01060...@posting.google.com>,
> sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
> >> >1)Only serious songs are worthy to be called songs
> >
> >.... Good that you got it. Yes, I do not call "Main hoon jhumroo" and
> >"Yahoo" to be songs. I dont what you understand serious to be - I
> >consider "Yeh hai bambai meri jaan" to be a serious song ok - not
> >"Soorma mera nirala".
>
> Define "serious" then?
... Define Music to me - I shall then define SERIOUS music.
>
> >.... No - I have never argued about Rafi. Rafi is indeed a great
> >singer - and one who can be discussed about. The argument was
> >regarding who made Rafi - I do not think that shows any acrimony
> >against Rafi. I refrain from comments about Kishore. Guys seem to be
> >much too sensitive out here.
>
> Guys are sensitive about everything--Kishore, Rafi, Lata, Asha, Naushad, ARR
> etc. However we are giving you an opportunity to state your views aren't we? You
> still haven't answered, what you consider to be serious songs and why you
> consider only certain singers to have it in them to sing. We can wait to rip you
> apart, till a later date. :) However you may continue to hide behind excuses of
> the kind "guys are too sensitive".
>
.... Sir, hitherto, till now, I have mentioned only Kishore to be ..
well, not my idea of a singer. Not one other name have I thus
mentioned. I love Saigal, Punkuj da, Rajkumari, Shamshad ji, Suraiya,
Nurjehan, Mukesh, Rafi, Talat, Hemant, Manna Da, Lata, Geeta, Suman,
Sudha - all. I do not understand why my naming only Kishore Kumar
leads you to assume that I consider only "certain" singers good.
>
> >> >3)Jazz music is not music.
> >
> >.... For a guy reared on Hindustani music, Jazz is not music.
> >Apparently you are not- lucky you
>
> Shankar-Jaikishan have an album only of jazz pieces composed in Hindustani
> classical ragas such as Shivranjani, Kalavati, Bairagi etc. This album is called
> Raga Jazz Style. I think that ends the argument about whether Hindustani and
> Jazz can both be called music and whether they can co-exist.
>
.... Again, thats a point of view which is in no way confirmatory. And
S-J to me are on par with Kishore.
> >Any number of mails to HMV have failed to get any response. Can RMIM
> >do something about it ?
>
> Your naivete is amusing. HMV has no desire to fulfill your wishes. They are in a
> business and as long as people thirst for rare songs, it is in their interests
> to keep releasing each song of a movie thru 5 different collections, thus
> ensuring that you buy all 5, to complete your collection of "Parchhain".
>
>
> Ketan
... Warms my heart to see that I have provided you with suffcient
amusement.
But then, it means that if I an album "Anarkali" is released, we buy
it with the knowledge that definitely, not all songs would be there. I
would require to buy 5 different CDs to complete one colln. Is that
your justification ?
Well, all I can say is (in all my brilliant naivete, whch I hope shall
amuse you further), music is too spiritual an art to be totally
subjected to commerce. Even film music. I dont want to expand further
on this.
Arun Sampath
"Sathya" <sathyana...@infy.com> wrote in message
> .... Sir, hitherto, till now, I have mentioned only Kishore to be ..
> well, not my idea of a singer. Not one other name have I thus
> mentioned. I love Saigal, Punkuj da, Rajkumari, Shamshad ji, Suraiya,
> Nurjehan, Mukesh, Rafi, Talat, Hemant, Manna Da, Lata, Geeta, Suman,
> Sudha - all. I do not understand why my naming only Kishore Kumar
> leads you to assume that I consider only "certain" singers good.
Leaving rest of the arguments and counter-arguments in this thread aside,
what really amuses me is that you count Mukesh and Hemant in your "idea of
singers" but exclude Kishore.
A
Ket...@att.net
sathyana...@infy.com says...
>> Define "serious" then?
>... Define Music to me - I shall then define SERIOUS music.
>.... Sir, hitherto, till now, I have mentioned only Kishore to be ..
>well, not my idea of a singer. Not one other name have I thus
>mentioned. I love Saigal, Punkuj da, Rajkumari, Shamshad ji, Suraiya,
>Nurjehan, Mukesh, Rafi, Talat, Hemant, Manna Da, Lata, Geeta, Suman,
>Sudha - all. I do not understand why my naming only Kishore Kumar
>leads you to assume that I consider only "certain" singers good.
>.... Again, thats a point of view which is in no way confirmatory. And
>S-J to me are on par with Kishore.
>... Warms my heart to see that I have provided you with suffcient
>amusement.
>But then, it means that if I an album "Anarkali" is released, we buy
>it with the knowledge that definitely, not all songs would be there. I
>would require to buy 5 different CDs to complete one colln. Is that
>your justification ?
>Well, all I can say is (in all my brilliant naivete, whch I hope shall
>amuse you further), music is too spiritual an art to be totally
>subjected to commerce. Even film music. I dont want to expand further
>on this.
There is very little that you seem to want to expand on, my dear chap. All you
have done so far is empty hand-waving and making pointless statements. When
asked to back them up, either you have responded to a question with another
question, or come off with even more inane statements. Even when presented with
a specific example of how jazz can be merged into Hindustani classical music, if
your only counter argument is to diss S-J, then well...need I say further. About
the only rock you can hide under is "This is IMHO, and I am entitled to my
opinion". If that is the way you want out of this--so be it. Won't press the
issue further. Infact will probably not even bother to consider your statements
seriously anymore.
Good luck
Ketan
Chetan Vinchhi
Sathya wrote in message ...
>
>.... Sir, hitherto, till now, I have mentioned only Kishore to be ..
>well, not my idea of a singer.
I consider Kishore to be a great singer of sad, romantic and fun
songs. To contrast that with some singers in your "list", I consider
Talat to be only an average (or lower) singer who got lucky. I
consider Mukesh to be an average (or lower) singer singer with
a good voice (and a golden heart no doubt) who got very lucky.
I consider Rafi to be a good singer of light songs but a bad
singer of classical-based songs and an okay singer of sad
songs. We can elaborate on this if you wish.
>.... Again, thats a point of view which is in no way confirmatory. And
>S-J to me are on par with Kishore.
You mean they are not your idea of singers?!! Can you point
me to a source where I can listen to them sing?
:)
OTOH, if you are talking about music direction, SJ are no
match for Kishore in terms of the average quality of their
output.
Seriously.
C
Vijay Kumar K
put in my
two-bit piece if only to stir up the waters a bit more... :-)
sathyana...@infy.com (Sathya) wrote in message news:<a8ca9910.01060...@posting.google.com>...
> krn <kr...@athotamildot.com> wrote in message news:<13i2itk6aq639ulib...@4ax.com>...
> > >>
> > >> As to his versatality - indeed, yes. But he had a hand everywhere,
> > >> without being an expert anywhere. Ask him to render something like
> > >> "Shame gham ki kasam", or "Bhooli hui yaadein" or "Laga Chunari me
> > >> daag" or "Zindagi kitni khoobsoorat hai" with the same brilliance as
> > >> the originals.
> > >
Ask anyone else to render songs like...
tum chalii jaaogii parachhaa_iyaa.N rah jaaye.ngii - Shagun (64)
Khayyam
tum ek baar muhabbat kaa - Babur (60) Roshan
mujhe le chalo - Sharabi (64) Madan Mohan
vo hai.n zaraa Kafaa Kafaa - Shagird (67) Laxmikant-Pyarelal
Every singer has some top-class songs which others would be hard put
to match..
Some had niches they exploited perfectly, others just sang out of
their skins
for some songs... Of course, one has the choice of being prissy and
claim "they
are not worth matching..."
> ...All this started off with an argument as to whether Rafi depended
> on Naushad for his songs. ...
Rafi's career taking off depended on Naushad only to the extent that
Naushad was
peeved by the supposed affrontery of Talat smoking a cigarette in his
presence.
For Babul, Naushad had no second thoughts about using Talat's voice
for Dilip in
songs like milte hi aankhen and husn vaalon ko na dil do. And this was
*after* suhaani raat and Dulari. And once Naushad had decided he had
no place for Talat
in his recording studios, Rafi stepped in. Naushad had done nothing
new for
Rafi... Rafi's vocal class was well established before the spat with
Talat.
CR's Safar solo (keh ke bhii na aaye tum) and Hansraj Behl's jin
raaton me niind
uD jaati hai both establish the lines along which Naushad was to
develop Rafi's
unmistakable vocal prowess, *before* Naushad gave them a wider canvas
to be
displayed on. In this resepect, Naushad is like Microsoft. Not an
innovator,
but an opportunistic improviser.
> ... Oh duniya ke rakhwale is a Naushad
> composition - and Yeh ishq ishq hai came after Talat's slide had
> started. And "Yeh ishq ishq hai" - IMO - was Manna Da - most of the
> way. Rafi was great, Manna Da was greater and Roshan was greatest.
Surely, there is a :-) missing at the end of that paragraph... ye ishq
ishq hai
is Sahir first and foremost, a bit of Roshan (NFAK's father will have
something
to say about it, I believe), then Rafi. Just spin it on the ol' player
once
again...
See the silken smoothness with which Rafi steps into the fray... the
short aa~
and "vahashat-e-dil, rasm-o-diidaar...". Manna De follows immediately
with "vo
ha.Ns ke agar maa.Nge..." Good as Manna De is, those lines are just a
rude
awakening... Moreover, if we are to follow HMV's tradition of
splitting the song
into "na to kaaravaa.N kii" and "ye ishq ishq hai", Manna De hardly
features in
the latter except to be held up as a voice to be lampooned... Manna De
has some
abso. great songs in his portfolio... this is not one of them. Really.
>
> > Last week someone mentioned that Rafi was getting songs rejected by
> > Talat in his PRIME. What a Joke.! What was Talat's range? He was able
> > to sing only one or two type of songs and other than that
> > He was useless singer. I agree that public liked his songs but for a
> > monotonous style his life was a short span.
>
Talat was limited... so what's news about that? Rafi was a more
accomplished
singer, no disputing that either... YET ... for a span of 5-8 years
(of course
it is a short period of dominance compared to 20+ years on top for
some of the
others in the fray) Talat was Numero Uno. #1. DA MAN. Arun, here is an
exercise
for you... open up Vol2 & Vol3 of HFGK. Count the number of male solos
from 50
(Aarzoo) to about 58 (Lala Rukh)... In this, keep count of the number
of songs
Talat sang... See which other male singer sang as many or more songs
than he
did...Kamlesh can help you... Everybody, bar everybody, was lining up
at his
door to have him sing for them... MDs and actors... his voice was like
a magic
charm. C Ramchandra, Anil Biswas, S D Burman, Chitragupt, Khemchand
Prakash,
Ghulam Mohd., Hansraj Behl, Ravi, Salil, Vasant Desai, Roshan, Madan
Mohan,
Khayyam, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Jaidev and Sajjad came to him with their
finest
compositions just as Vinod, Bipin-Babul, Nashad, N Dutta, Alla Rakha,
Shivram
Krishna, Bulo C Rani, Ram Ganguly and S K Pal did... Dilip-Dev-Raj
lined up to
have him give voice to their songs on screen, as did Sunil Dutt,
Bharat
Bhooshan, Shammi Kapoor, V Shantaram, Chandrashekhar.... There was no
one, bar
no one, who did not hope to be graced by Talat's vocals working for
them... And
even the iconoclasts like Shankar-Jaikishan and O P Nayyar had their
earliest
and some of their finest songs sung by Talat. Naushad, remained at a
prissy
distance despite Talat doing justice and more to his compositions in
Babul. All
this in the period 1950-58.
This is the period I call the age of innocence. Somehow, the happy
songs in this
period actually sound happy, the sad songs heartbreakingly heartfelt
and the
love touching in its trustingness. And that is true of everyone -
Lata, Rafi,
Mukesh, Hemant, Talat, Asha, Geeta and Kishore...
This is when the explosion came... O P Nayyar decided that Baaz was
not the way
he wanted to go. First Aar Paar and then MR. & Mrs 55 lit up a
hitherto
unexplored niche. Guru Dutt moved away to SD Burman, Hemant Kumar and
Ravi and
OP Nayyar came forcefully into his own with Tumsa Nahin Dekha & Naya
Daur in
1957. OPN, Rafi, SJ and whole tribes in their wake switched from the
rapturous
to the raucous. All paths that once led up to Talat's door suddenly
turned away.
He beat a rapid and graceful retreat.
And for ever after, everything in HFM has come with a coat of varnish.
There is
an artifice in most things (there is a rare Sudha Malhotra with
payaam-e-ishq
muhabbat to prove the rule by exception). I wager that Rafi in 1955
would have
done a wonderful job with tum mujhe yuu.N which he just doesn't do
justice to in
1970.
> That Kishore does not merit consideration when you are talking of great
> musical voices. Lets expand on the Rafis, the Talats, the Muskeshs - but
> please spare me the Kishores. The yoogler may please be kept away when
> serious musical discussion is on ! !!! Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
It is just unfortunate that Kishore's best known period comes in the
post-OPN
explosion. It required the finesse of an SD Burman to craft something
as classy
as meraa man teraa (Gambler) or phuulon ke rang se (Prem Pujari) in
the sweeping
flood of noisy uninhibition. Madan Mohan, Roshan and Khayyam were
voices
sidelined, if not silenced. Others either went the Talat way or
morphed into
something monstrously like the rest of the 70s music.
It is not as if Kishore was not around pre-OPN, just that he did not
need the
industry as much as he needed it later... It is his cavalier approach
that is to
be blamed for his not having his share of "great" songs in the golden
period,
and not some HMV conspiracy and certainly not any limitations of his
genius.
A small sampling of his songs (I am glad you mention jagmag jagmag,
and not the
rather overwrought marne ki duaaen) shows what he was capable of.
vo meri taraf yuun chale aa rahe hain - Qafila
aa muhabbat kii duniyaa - Fareb
dukhi man mere - Fantoosh
merii niindo me.n tum - Naya Andaaz
jagmag jagmag kartaa nikalaa - Ziddi
all showcase the lustrous timber of his voice. And songs like
C-A-T Cat - Dilli Ka Thug
iina miina Diikaa - Asha
haal kaisaa hai - Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi
gaanaa na aayaa - Miss Mary
qismat kii baat hai ... shaadii - Ladki
highlight the undeniable verve in his voice...
In sheer voice quality, if Rafi is liquid steel, Kishore is
quicksilver. To find
fault with Kishore's singing ability because he did not choose to sing
more
"serious" songs is to find fault with the man and his
less-than-interested
attitude - and this does less than justice to you, Sathya, for your
postings
have revealed your ability to appreciate good music in no small
measure.
And after all, the kind of songs you like to hear have nothing to do
with the
ability of the singers, right? I mean Callas, Domingo, Simon (even
with my
severely limited knowledge) are great singers even if I rarely hear
them and
understand little of them. A Carnatic vs Hindustani argument only
serves to
indicate preferences and not relative merits... as does "serious" vs
"not
serious"
Vijay
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> I consider Kishore to be a great singer of sad, romantic and fun
> songs.
I will not argue the great vs. good distinction here, particularly in
reference to Rafi/KK as that has been amply documented over the years
on RMIM. All I will say is while KK did well overall, the last
category is what to me really set him apart.
On a side note, there are some other serious songs I wish KK had been
given to sing, notably "Ya Dil Ki Suno Duniya Waalo" - Hemant Kumar
was a good singer, but to me the tradeoff between the pleasing texture
of his voice and its inherent lethargy and laziness is too much in
some songs. I don't find this rendering any more emotional for its
sloppiness in some places.
> To contrast that with some singers in your "list", I consider
> Talat to be only an average (or lower) singer who got lucky.
Um...okay. Before the tremolo in his voice went out of control, I
think this is a very unfair assessment of Talat. And lucky to me would
have meant that he got offers to go on singing well past his prime for
as long as Rafi/KK did, and now Lata/Asha are doing.
> I
> consider Mukesh to be an average (or lower) singer singer with
> a good voice (and a golden heart no doubt) who got very lucky.
> I consider Rafi to be a good singer of light songs but a bad
> singer of classical-based songs and an okay singer of sad
> songs. We can elaborate on this if you wish.
I, I, I, and We? Is this the royal "We" or are you calling on other
RMIMers to help elaborate?
For classical-based songs, Rafi was no Lata (or even Manna Dey if you
want to consider ability to navigate "taans"), but evaluating Rafi as
unequivocally "bad" in this genre is getting absolutely carried away.
By the way, why do you feel the need to mention the golden heart of
Mukesh in this discussion? Rafi too was supposed to be a gentleman and
then some (and he also gets bonus points because he didn't drink or
smoke, etc.). While we're at it, Talat was supposed to be a good guy
who was unfortunately seen smoking by Naushad, KK was a weirdo with a
heart of silver, etc.
Sanjeev
Chetan Vinchhi
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote...
>
>> To contrast that with some singers in your "list", I consider
>> Talat to be only an average (or lower) singer who got lucky.
>
>Um...okay. Before the tremolo in his voice went out of control, I
>think this is a very unfair assessment of Talat.
Fair enough.
>> We can elaborate on this if you wish.
>
>I, I, I, and We? Is this the royal "We" or are you calling on other
>RMIMers to help elaborate?
Sorry. I started out by typing "We can talk about this if you
wish", but edited the text without correcting the pronoun.
>For classical-based songs, Rafi was no Lata (or even Manna Dey if you
>want to consider ability to navigate "taans"), but evaluating Rafi as
>unequivocally "bad" in this genre is getting absolutely carried away.
Fair enough. But you have to concede no other singer has
sung "classical" songs as badly as he has :)
(c'mon Sanjeev, you know this is a bait :) )
>By the way, why do you feel the need to mention the golden heart of
>Mukesh in this discussion?
I was borrowing from the common denominator of all that
his contemporaries had to say about him. I find it hard to
talk about his singing apart from the wonderful quality of
his voice (what a waste!).
>Rafi too was supposed to be a gentleman and then some
True, but in his case we have other good things to say.
>While we're at it, Talat was supposed to be a good guy
Yes. I recall a DD documentary on him which was basically
a series of interviews in his home. It was hosted by Sarita
Sethi (the once-ubiquitous Hindi news reader). Talat came
across as a thorough gentleman (if you discount the fact
that he was smoking through many parts of the film - this
might be offensive to more "current" sensibilities)
throughout the interview, whether he was talking about his
career or about his contemporaries.
C
Surajit A. Bose
sathyana...@infy.com (Sathya) wrote:
> ...It simply means what it conveys. That Kishore does not merit
> consideration when you are talking of great musical voices. Lets
> expand on the Rafis, the Talats, the Muskeshs - but please spare me
> the Kishores. The yoogler may please be kept away when serious musical
> discussion is on ! !!! Yeah, go ahead - kill me.
Nobody but Kishore could have sung "koii hamadam na rahaa, koii sahaaraa
na rahaa". If your fixation with 1950s music prevents you from seeing
Kishore for the genius that he was, you are more to be pitied than
anything else. Why should you assume that those of us who do like
Kishore would want to kill you? I mean, that would mean we consider you
worth taking seriously.
> .... For a guy reared on Hindustani music, Jazz is not music.
Anybody who uses the excuse "I was raised on Hindustani music" to scorn
jazz clearly has understood neither jazz nor Hindustani music.
-s
Veena Nayak
>
>
>I was borrowing from the common denominator of all that
>his contemporaries had to say about him. I find it hard to
>talk about his singing
That reflects well on Mukesh.
Jokes apart, what is the big deal about Mukesh being
besura? His singing may be technically flawed, but
the emotional qualities he imbued in a song more than
amply compensated for this shortcoming. If you consider
many of his tandem songs or even duets with the devi of
sur, Lata, Mukesh's singing holds on its own and sometimes,
outdoes hers (Sarawatichandra and Kabhie Kabhie to name
a couple).
Veena
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> It is just unfortunate that Kishore's best known period comes in the
> post-OPN
> explosion. It required the finesse of an SD Burman to craft something
> as classy
> as meraa man teraa (Gambler) or phuulon ke rang se (Prem Pujari) in
> the sweeping
> flood of noisy uninhibition.
Agree with pretty much all your post, but did you mean this song?
AFAIR, "Mera Man Tera Pyaasa" is by Rafi, not KK.
Sanjeev
Sathya
.... A fine post, Vijay - very fine indeed. There is abs nothing I
have against Kishore - in fact, the songs you have listed (may I add a
wonderful "Husn bhi hai udas udas" from "Fareb" to that list) confirm
my words that he was not a bad singer. I have just complained against
his not being a SERIOUS singer. I do not believe that I have said that
he was a BAD singer. During the MELODY YEARS, Kishore seemed to exist
within the boundaries of SDB's musical room (as a Playback singer I
mean). And when SDB switched to Rafi for Dev Anand, Kishore was a
near-lost figure. And when he made a comeback with Aradhana, again
IMO, his voice had lost the melody which marked out his early
melodies.
But again - was it just his "cavalier" approach that prevented him
from singing more ? Take away SDB - and you have just a handful of
good songs from the others. Take Anil Biswas. It was on his insistence
that Kishore came to render two of his and cinema's finest numbers in
"Fareb" - but after that, the two never combined again. Mind, Anil da
was pretty active till 1956-57. Even Salil - who gave Kishore "Chota
sa ghar hoga" - never had Kishore as a playback through those 50s and
60s.
Is it just Kishore's "cavalier" approach that was responsible for
these composers steering away from him - or not considering him at all
?
I wonder....
Ket...@att.net
vijay...@my-deja.com says...
>Rafi's career taking off depended on Naushad only to the extent that
>Naushad was peeved by the supposed affrontery of Talat smoking a cigarette in
>>his presence. Naushad had done nothing new for Rafi... Rafi's vocal class was
>>well established before the spat with Talat.
I am not so sure that Naushad did not do ANYTHING for Rafi. For one, he did lend
it a bit more sweetness..sweetness that was worked on and perfected by the likes
of SDB, Roshan, OPN etc. Secondly and most importantly, I fully hold Naushad
responsible for making Rafi wail, weep, moan and cry. He seems to have made sure
that Rafi when he sang sad songs would fully drown it in melancholiness. Unlike
Mukesh, who seemed to know just how much sadness to put into a song and seemed
to know when to hold back, Rafi at times just lets go, the whole nine yards. On
the whole though I support the major thrust of your statement that it was others
who made Rafi the great singer he was and not Naushad.
>Talat was limited, YET ... for a span of 5-8 years Talat was Numero Uno. #1. >DA
>MAN. Arun, here is an exercise for you... open up Vol2 & Vol3 of HFGK. >Count
>the number of male solos from 50 (Aarzoo) to about 58 (Lala Rukh)... In >this,
>keep count of the number of songs Talat sang... See which other male >singer
>sang as many or more songs than he did
Having done a bit of this exercise, I can say that Talat might not have sung the
major number of solos. However for all the important songs, love duets, sad
songs, ghazals etc, it is Talat who seems to have been the first choice. It was
on the basis of this, that I said that he was # 1. However my range was more of
the 1947/48-1953/54 period. I would say the tide did turn in Rafi's favour first
with Aar Paar and then with Mr & Mrs 55.
In article <2301608.00...@drn.newsguy.com>, Veena says...
>amply compensated for this shortcoming. If you consider
>many of his tandem songs or even duets with the devi of
>sur, Lata, Mukesh's singing holds on its own and sometimes,
>outdoes hers (Sarawatichandra and Kabhie Kabhie to name
>a couple).
One Mukesh-Lata duet that never fails to fascinate me is "Nain dwar se man main
jo aaye" from Saawan (or is it Milan? Help! It is a Hansraj Behl song). I think
Lata is simply fab(despite the ooooi maa's and hai dayyaaas) in both versions
though I am biased towards her slower version. It is Mukesh though who seems to
have dug deep within himself to come up with a voice that he seemed to have
abandoned after "Dil jalta hai to jalne de" in 1945. The contrast that he
presents to Lata's happy voice is too good to be true.
>Veena
Ketan
Sathya
> In article <a8ca9910.0106...@posting.google.com>,
> sathyana...@infy.com says...
>
> >And hey Ketan, I resent that last statement against Sajjad - the
> >composer that is. FYI, Sajjad Husain the composer, was the most
> >knowledgable musician of his day !!!!!!
>
> My statement had nothing to do with the composer's musical abilities, of which I
> am in open-mouthed awe of. It had to do with the similarities in behaviour
> rudeness was supposedly a feature of the composer's behaviour too.
>
> As an aside, Sajjad the composer was supposed to have been a wonderful mandolin
> player. His son, Nasir Sajjad Hussain, was recently in the US giving mandolin
> performances which I sadly missed. Are there any recordings available of either
> father or son?
>
>
> Ketan
..... Good Lord. Thats the second person who has accused me of
doubting your musical knowledge on Sajjad, Ketan. That was supposed to
be a dig at the poster named Sajjad. After all our heated discussions,
I wonder how you can imagine me to be unaware of your musical
knowledge.
Ket...@att.net
>.... A fine post, Vijay - very fine indeed. There is abs nothing I
>have against Kishore - in fact, the songs you have listed (may I add a
>wonderful "Husn bhi hai udas udas" from "Fareb" to that list) confirm
>my words that he was not a bad singer. I have just complained against
>his not being a SERIOUS singer. I do not believe that I have said that
Once again..what is the definition of a "serious singer"?
>he was a BAD singer. During the MELODY YEARS, Kishore seemed to exist
>within the boundaries of SDB's musical room (as a Playback singer I
>mean). And when SDB switched to Rafi for Dev Anand, Kishore was a
Advice to you--read Kishore Valicha's book on Kishore Kumar. Not a great book as
biographies go, but provides a good insight into Kishore, and the times. Rafi
came into the SDB-Dev Anand camp only because Kishore told SDB that he had no
time to complete the recordings for Nau do Gyarah since he was too busy with
shootings.
>But again - was it just his "cavalier" approach that prevented him
>from singing more ? Take away SDB - and you have just a handful of
>good songs from the others. Take Anil Biswas. It was on his insistence
>that Kishore came to render two of his and cinema's finest numbers in
>"Fareb" - but after that, the two never combined again. Mind, Anil da
The word "never" is easy to disprove. See "Paisa hi Paisa".
>was pretty active till 1956-57. Even Salil - who gave Kishore "Chota
>sa ghar hoga" - never had Kishore as a playback through those 50s and
>60s.
The word "never" again! See "Aawaaz" and "Half-Ticket".
Ketan
Chetan Vinchhi
Veena Nayak wrote...
>
>Jokes apart, what is the big deal about Mukesh being
>besura?
It is not just a question of being besura. Have you heard
of people sounding as if they are singing when they are
talking? Well, Mukesh's case is the reverse. He sounds
as if he is speaking when he is "singing". At least this is
the best way I can describe the vocal artifact I hear -
most every time - in his songs. By the way, this means
he does relatively well in tarannum type of songs (ai
jaan-e-jigar dil me.n samaane aa jaa).
>His singing may be technically flawed, but
>the emotional qualities he imbued in a song more than
>amply compensated for this shortcoming.
To each his/her own I guess. I cannot agree with you
for many many of his songs. A few, yes. In some other
cases, the beauty of the composition is so overpowering
you can ignore the shortcomings of the singer.
C
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> >For classical-based songs, Rafi was no Lata (or even Manna Dey if you
> >want to consider ability to navigate "taans"), but evaluating Rafi as
> >unequivocally "bad" in this genre is getting absolutely carried away.
>
> Fair enough. But you have to concede no other singer has
> sung "classical" songs as badly as he has :)
>
> (c'mon Sanjeev, you know this is a bait :) )
I take the bait - "Matwaali Naar Thumak Thumak Chali Jaaye" far
outdoes any of Rafi's worst renditions of classical songs - and it is
found in almost all "classical film songs" collections. At best in
this song, Mukesh sounds reluctant, as though he's really not sure it
was his turn to be in front of the microphone.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> I do not believe that I have said that
> he was a BAD singer. During the MELODY YEARS, Kishore seemed to exist
> within the boundaries of SDB's musical room (as a Playback singer I
> mean). And when SDB switched to Rafi for Dev Anand, Kishore was a
> near-lost figure. And when he made a comeback with Aradhana, again
> IMO, his voice had lost the melody which marked out his early
> melodies.
While I have disagreed with your overall assessment of KK, I very much
agree with this last observation. I don't know whether by choice KK
tried to make his voice sound broader or more weighty through the 70s,
but the light touch he had early on was, IMO, gone. That's why I think
KK's best stuff, too, was in the 1950s (i.e. Jagmag Jagmag Karta Nikla
et. al.)
Sanjeev
Ket...@att.net
says...
Firstly, I don't agree with you that KK had lost his light touch. I think the
touch was very much there. It's just that KK now was singing for a much broader
range of actors than he was in the 50's and 60's(which was primarily Dev, and
himself).
Secondly the compositions themselves had changed in style and orchestration thus
necessitating the change in voice. We had fewer soft romantic numbers of the "aa
mohabbat ki basti" and we more hard-edged louder love songs wherein one would
shout out their love from the rooftops. This phenomenon can be said to have been
directly influenced by the Shammi Kapoor school of acting. Still he when the
occassion arose, he did come up with a "yeh jeevan hai", or "woh shaam kuch
ajeeb thi".
Ketan
Arun Sampath
accurate depiction of No.1 MDs?
Naushad Late 40s to Early 50s
SJ/OPN Mid 50s to Mid 60s
LP/RDB Late 60s to Mid 70s
LP Late 70s to Mid 80s
You lose track after that.
Was SDB ever considered No.1 MD? How about AB in the 40s and early 50s?
Could someone throw more light on these?
A
naniwadekar
>
> Firstly, I don't agree with you that KK had lost his light touch. I think
> the touch was very much there. It's just that KK now was singing for a
> much broader > range of actors than he was in the 50's and 60's(which
> was primarily Dev, and himself).
>
later claim that KK had lost his light touch (I agree with
him), would you have still encouraged KK to 'sing for much
broader range of actors' or asked him to assume that he was
singing for Dev only ? I find these excuses to be just what
they actually are; namely, excuses.
Btw, given that Sathya listens to only 1950s music, his criticism
of KK is even more curious. If (a) he didn't sing bad songs in 1950s
and (b) still got / accepted very few assignments during that decade
(as Sathya claims), (a) would be a reason for wishing (b) weren't so,
instead of the fact (b) providing Sathya with grounds for deciding
to ditch him.
- nani
naniwadekar
>
> Naushad Late 40s to Early 50s
>
>
> Could someone throw more light on these?
>
Haider were the other giants. You can add Naushad (propped up
by Ghulam Mohd) to this list so far as 1940s go. One Naushad
fanatic (he used to appear on Hindi music programmes from some
Dallas based radio station) told me that he could dream up great
tunes; but relied almost entirely on Ghulam Mohd for bringing
them to fruition. Baiju Bawara was their last film together.
Though Amar (well ...), Shabab and choruses in Udan Khatola have
their points, I am not in awe of them. Mughal-e-azam is excellent.
Naushad's work with Mohd Ibrahim (GM's brother) and Mohd Shafi
is inferior to his Ghulam Mohd days. During the 'saregama' final
featuring N and AB among its 11 judges, N acknowledged that AB
was the top dog, and he was among others who learned this and
that (he mentioned counter-melody) from him. My (possibly unfair)
reading is that Naushad wouldn't have said it if he could help it.
But there was OPN on the stage obviously according far greater
respect to AB than to anyone else.
I also like Shyam Sunder (his 3-4 films) from 1940s and Roshan
and CR (upto Yasmin) from 1950s. Haven't heard much of Gyan Dutt.
Naushad # 1? Are you serious or in mood to start a flame?
Why is Rafi's name included in the subject header? Sigh ...
- nani
Radhika and Ramesh Hariharan
> Nobody but Kishore could have sung "koii hamadam na rahaa, koii sahaaraa
There are many other songs with similar emotions which all the well
known singers of that time have easily delivered. Don't know what
forced you to such an arbitrary and baseless statement.
>
> -s
Best,
Ramesh
Ket...@att.net
nan...@hotmail.com says...
>
>Ket...@att.net wrote -
>>
>> Firstly, I don't agree with you that KK had lost his light touch. I think
>> the touch was very much there. It's just that KK now was singing for a
>> much broader > range of actors than he was in the 50's and 60's(which
>> was primarily Dev, and himself).
>>
>Ketan - if you were the MD and suspected that Sanjeev would
>later claim that KK had lost his light touch (I agree with
>him), would you have still encouraged KK to 'sing for much
>broader range of actors' or asked him to assume that he was
>singing for Dev only ? I find these excuses to be just what
>they actually are; namely, excuses.
Nani,
As usual you make little sense. I, as merely an MD, have very little or almost
no say in who Kishore can and should sing for. So there is little chance of me
"encouraging" Kishore to sing for a much broader range of actors or not. My
point was--Kishore did have the light touch, atleast till the early-mid 70's. He
just hardly ever got the chance to use it given the way in which songs were
written/composed. Infact there are songs, which he has sung in Bengali and
Hindi, where in the Bengali versions display his light touch, whereas the same
Hindi counterpart doesn't. Part of the reason could be whether the album was a
non-film Puja album in Bengali or a film song and on whom the song was
picturized on.
Ketan
Sathya
... Took me a good while to get that somewhat in - not yet fully.
Hey, who is that claiming KK didnt sing bad songs in the 50s ? The
benchmark for KK in the 70s was KK in the 50s thats all. His songs in
the 50s (the limited good ones that are) are superior to his numerous
popular ones in the 70s. The major reason for taht of course, was the
superioirty of the composers - and the compositions. They were songs
which would have been magnificent with any singer - perhaps a few
notches better ( my mind leaps to "Aa mohobbat ki basti" - it would
have been doubly (if thats possible) enchanting had the rendition been
by Talat or even Hemant).
I said he was not a BAD SINGER - but he certainly sang BAD SONGS. And
some one mentioned "Half ticket" - see, Salil could go crazy once in a
while. This was one such instance. The music (if u could call it that)
was atrocious - terrible songs. Even I , a great Salil admirer, have
to say it.
And if one goes by the one-off renditions, then one could also cite
instances of Rafi having sung for Anil da, Talat for Naushad et al.
The odd songs do not really count. All I had implied was that the
singer was not a presence in the composer's musical room.
Sathya
AKumar
either he sang for himself or Dev except for one
background song in Sagag Raat (64). Among one
of the main reason he became mass singer in 70s
was due to big a big raid on film celebs in late
60s where KK and Mala Sinha owed the most money
to the Income Tax department. KK had to sing a lot to pay off the tax guys.
Abhay
"naniwadekar" <nan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b4af975d.01061...@posting.google.com...
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> In article <5ed58637.01061...@posting.google.com>, sanj...@aol.com
> says...
> >
> >sathyana...@infy.com (Sathya) wrote in message
> >news:<a8ca9910.01061...@posting.google.com>...
> >> I do not believe that I have said that
> >> he was a BAD singer. During the MELODY YEARS, Kishore seemed to exist
> >> within the boundaries of SDB's musical room (as a Playback singer I
> >> mean). And when SDB switched to Rafi for Dev Anand, Kishore was a
> >> near-lost figure. And when he made a comeback with Aradhana, again
> >> IMO, his voice had lost the melody which marked out his early
> >> melodies.
> >
> >While I have disagreed with your overall assessment of KK, I very much
> >agree with this last observation. I don't know whether by choice KK
> >tried to make his voice sound broader or more weighty through the 70s,
> >but the light touch he had early on was, IMO, gone. That's why I think
> >KK's best stuff, too, was in the 1950s (i.e. Jagmag Jagmag Karta Nikla
> >et. al.)
>
> necessitating the change in voice. We had fewer soft romantic numbers of the "aa
> mohabbat ki basti" and we more hard-edged louder love songs wherein one would
> shout out their love from the rooftops. This phenomenon can be said to have been
> directly influenced by the Shammi Kapoor school of acting. Still he when the
> occassion arose, he did come up with a "yeh jeevan hai", or "woh shaam kuch
> ajeeb thi".
IIRC Khamoshi is a late sixties/early 70s flick. Yes, there were
traces of that soft touch, but to me the further along he went, the
soft touch sounded more and more forced, and his voice became viscous
(not all by choice IMO). The "Koi Hamdam Na Raha"s and "Jagmag Jagmag
Karta Nikla"s would not have sounded the same in that voice even if
(for the second song), Khemchand Prakash came back to lead KK through
the song with the same ideas and motivations. It was a charm that KK
never regained IMO as he went on to other types of songs and voice
projection.
Sanjeev
Ket...@att.net
>And if one goes by the one-off renditions, then one could also cite
>instances of Rafi having sung for Anil da, Talat for Naushad et al.
>The odd songs do not really count. All I had implied was that the
>singer was not a presence in the composer's musical room.
True that Kishore was not a big prescence in the composer's music room. However
it wasn't because of the composers not wanting him. If at all anyone can be
blamed, it is largely and mostly only Kishore. His quirky nature and the grouse
he held against some producers, MD's came in his way of working with many more
MD's during the 50s than he did.
Ketan
Arun Sampath
> Naushad # 1? Are you serious or in mood to start a flame?
> Why is Rafi's name included in the subject header? Sigh ...
I might be wrong. From whatever I have read, Naushad was considered the
number 1 during late 40s and early 50s. He was commanding something like 1
lakh per movie(??) Now, just as a disclaimer, this is about public
perception in combination with other factors like the amount that the MDs
charged, the number of hits the MDs produced, the MDs the producers in those
era preferred over others etc. That explains LP being the No.1 for quite a
long time. Critics might give the No. 1 position to other more talented MDs.
The numbers game doesn't often reflect talent and that's a different issue.
A
PS About the header, wonder why you didn't feel it necessary to remove it in
your post? :-)
Anant Rege
"Sathya" <sathyana...@infy.com> wrote in message
news:a8ca9910.01061...@posting.google.com...
> vijay...@my-deja.com (Vijay Kumar K) wrote in message
news:<f9e9d452.01061...@posting.google.com>...
> >
news:<a8ca9910.01060...@posting.google.com>...
> > > krn <kr...@athotamildot.com> wrote in message
news:<13i2itk6aq639ulib...@4ax.com>...
Wonder no more. Can you spot the difference between other
singers and Kishore? It is easy. He was an actor too. Not an
occasional one like Talat but a regular and busy one. And
one of the top comedians off the era. If you noticed in most
of the 50's, apart from his initial stint, only SDB
primarily used him as a playback singer for Dev. Rest of all
his songs with other composers came because they were
recorded on himself, the actor. Obviously, they were light,
funny songs. But I agree with Chetan that he was equally
good, comfortable in sad, romantic and funny songs. And I
can not say it about any other male singer. He might not
have got his share of great songs during what I consider as
the finest period of HFM, but the reason is cenrtainly not
his inability to deliver. Going by his post 70's output, I
can easily imagine him singing any Talat, Mukesh and Most of
Rafi songs equally well or better. I am a hard core Talat
fan but I would have loved to hear Kishore sing 'meraa
karaar le jaa'. Here is my take on this 4 singers and their
approach to singing sad songs. If you imagine some
catastophe falling on them,
Talat would be devastated and sulk alone in some room almost
afraid that somebody else will hear him crying, like in
'Zindagii denewaale sun'.
Mukesh would be completely confused and sound like a man who
can not figure out why all these horrible things are
happening to a nice guy like him. As in 'Khabar kyaa thii
bahaar aakar, hamaare aashiyaane par, nai bijalii
giraayegii, nayaa ham par karam hogaa.. Hame ai dil kahi le
chal'.
Rafi will go to the roof top and scream and make sure that
whole world knows about it like 'Chalii aa~ ~ ~, Chalii aa~
~' in 'Mohabbat zindaa rahati hai.n'.
And Kishore will take all in his stride and still try to
keep his composure in these hard times. Like in 'Zindagii
kaa safar, hai ye kaisaa safar'.
Anant
Ket...@att.net
rha...@hotmail.com says...
Your first sentence is very true..and holds true for Lata, Rafi, Mukesh, Talat,
Hemant et al. However I am left wondering why stating it should make it
arbitrary or baseless? People do say, no one could play touch tennis like
McEnroe or no one could massacre the bowling like Viv Richards too. Anything
wrong with those statements?
K
Surajit A. Bose
Who's talking about the emotions? I'm talking about technical
perfection. The song is flawlessly rendered and demonstrates an amazing
range. The effortlessness with which Kishore moves from register to
register is unmatched. (No, Rafi couldn't match it. He has a tendency to
yell when he goes above top rishabh.)
The fact that he does this AND conveys the emotions is just gravy. The
"other well known singers" all confuse grief with
sentimentality--consider Rafi's "baabul kii duaae.n letii jaa" or just
about any Mukesh song.
-s
Vijay Kumar K
be it with Kishore or with Rafi...
Vijay
Vijay Kumar K
> >DA MAN. Arun, here is an exercise for you... open up Vol2 & Vol3 of HFGK.
> >Count the number of male solos from 50 (Aarzoo) to about 58 (Lala Rukh)...
> >In this, keep count of the number of songs Talat sang... See which other
> > male singer sang as many or more songs than he did
>
> Having done a bit of this exercise, I can say that Talat might not have sung
> the major number of solos. However for all the important songs, love duets,
> sad songs, ghazals etc, it is Talat who seems to have been the first choice.
brief period of "shared No.1" from 55-57/58, but the downslide did not really
come about till about 58. And when it did, it was quite rapid. In a period of
two years, the pipeline just dried up.
Vijay
Veena Nayak
>The "other well known singers" all confuse grief with
>sentimentality--consider Rafi's "baabul kii duaae.n letii jaa" or just
>about any Mukesh song.
Re. Mukesh: You are wrong.
Veena
Sathya
> >
> > Naushad Late 40s to Early 50s
> >
> > You lose track after that.
> >
> > How about AB in the 40s and early 50s?
> > Could someone throw more light on these?
> >
> AB was # 1 in 1940s and early 50s. Khemchand Prakash, Ghulam
> Haider were the other giants. You can add Naushad (propped up
> by Ghulam Mohd) to this list so far as 1940s go. One Naushad
> fanatic (he used to appear on Hindi music programmes from some
> Dallas based radio station) told me that he could dream up great
> tunes; but relied almost entirely on Ghulam Mohd for bringing
> them to fruition. Baiju Bawara was their last film together.
> Though Amar (well ...), Shabab and choruses in Udan Khatola have
> their points, I am not in awe of them. Mughal-e-azam is excellent.
> Naushad's work with Mohd Ibrahim (GM's brother) and Mohd Shafi
> is inferior to his Ghulam Mohd days.
...Oh, you were present during every Naushad rehearsal to see it all,
were you ? I find the charge pretty petty and baseless.
You may not be in awe of the compositions - they are meant to AWE you,
they are meant to SOOTHE you as MUSIC should.
Please do not make these accusations simply becos you do not happen to
be ..er,, too enamoured by Naushad's music. Naushad was , is and shall
always remain the greatest composer.
As to assistants - if that be the charge, look at the others. SDB had
Jaidev as his asst, S-J had Dattaram (FYI, the man who composed "Ansoo
bhari hai" and "Hall-e-dil hamara") - does that mean that their tunes
too were courtesy their assistant's ?
During the 'saregama' final
> featuring N and AB among its 11 judges, N acknowledged that AB
> was the top dog, and he was among others who learned this and
> that (he mentioned counter-melody) from him. My (possibly unfair)
> reading is that Naushad wouldn't have said it if he could help it.
> But there was OPN on the stage obviously according far greater
> respect to AB than to anyone else.
>
... FYI, in a 1956 article in Filmfare (which I managed to lay my
hands on recently), Naushad expannds on Anil da's immense contribution
to our films and how his own development as a composer was due to Anil
da's inspiration. And I have heard him repeat this in any number of
interviews. Obiviously, you do not seem to have heard any of them.
> I also like Shyam Sunder (his 3-4 films) from 1940s and Roshan
> and CR (upto Yasmin) from 1950s. Haven't heard much of Gyan Dutt.
>
... Liking a composer does not mean he was no 1. Shyam sunder was
always a first-rate composer (have you heard his "Neend hamari khwab
tumhare by G.M. Durani and "Duniya hamare pyar ki" by Lata and karan
Dewan - divine melodies those) - never a #1. CR was #2 through the
years you have mentioned. I do not think Roshan was #1 at any time in
his career - even during his peak years in the 60s, it was S-J and OPN
who ruled the roost.
> Naushad # 1? Are you serious or in mood to start a flame?
... On similar lines, disliking a composer does no tmean he was NOT
#1. Then I should scream out SJ NO 1 ? GO CLEAN YOUR EARS.
Naushad was the undisputed No 1 durin gthe 47 - 55 phase (the GOLDEN
of the Golden phase IMO)
Chetan Vinchhi
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote...
>
>> Fair enough. But you have to concede no other singer has
>> sung "classical" songs as badly as he has :)
>>
>> (c'mon Sanjeev, you know this is a bait :) )
>
>I take the bait - "Matwaali Naar Thumak Thumak Chali Jaaye" far
>outdoes any of Rafi's worst renditions of classical songs
No, it doesn't. Compare it to "baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng daarii"
(with Krishnarao Chonkar IIRC) from Rani Roopmati. Atrocious is
a word that suggests itself to describe Rafi's singing.
Besides, the Mukesh song is not an "overtly" classical song anyway.
(Or is it? I don't listen much to Mukesh songs these days - so kill
me, Veena :) )
> - and it is
>found in almost all "classical film songs" collections. At best in
>this song, Mukesh sounds reluctant, as though he's really not sure it
>was his turn to be in front of the microphone.
:) Like your description.
C
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> In article <d39bfd3a.01061...@posting.google.com>,
> rha...@hotmail.com (Radhika and Ramesh Hariharan) wrote:
>
> > "Surajit A. Bose" <sb...@saintmarys.edu> wrote in message
> > news:<sbose-A75569....@news.fu-berlin.de>...
> > > Nobody but Kishore could have sung "koii hamadam na rahaa, koii sahaaraa
> > > na rahaa"... rest of rambling deleted..
> >
> > There are many other songs with similar emotions which all the well
> > known singers of that time have easily delivered. Don't know what
> > forced you to such an arbitrary and baseless statement.
>
> Who's talking about the emotions? I'm talking about technical
> perfection. The song is flawlessly rendered and demonstrates an amazing
> range.
I beg to differ - if you want an amazing range, you need to go South
of the Vindhyas and check out some of the stuff Balamurali, Yesudas,
or even SPB have sung. This song exhibits good range, from mandra
Pancham to taar Gandhar, not quite amazing, though. And no, for my
ardent love of Rafi's music, I will not claim that he was blessed with
AMAZING range, but good range.
> The effortlessness with which Kishore moves from register to
> register is unmatched. (No, Rafi couldn't match it. He has a tendency to
> yell when he goes above top rishabh.)
Yes he could. He was very much able to make the distinction between a
floaty head voice (check the song "Meri Mehboob Kahin Aur Milaa Kar
Mujhse" as just one example) and more forceful belting placement in
the taar saptak. No, proper forceful singing in the taar saptak does
NOT amount to yelling. I agree that Rafi started yelling more LATER on
in his career (i.e. the floating tone is almost nowhere to be found).
On flip side, while KK did have very good facility up top, you
couldn't count on him to BELT even where appropriate (and I don't
think he really has those kinds of songs). He mostly used his head
voice, but his mechanics also gave the tone a backbone so it didn't
sound lazy and unsupported.
When you say top rishabh, what do you mean? As you know, this is a
relative term, as each film song is in a slightly different scale. Are
you using an "average" Sa for Rafi (which I say is roughly D#), based
on empirical song data? It makes more sense to use absolute terms and
say that, for example, above (below) F/F# (B/B-flat), XYZ's tone
changes.
Sanjeev
Ket...@att.net
>You may not be in awe of the compositions - they are meant to AWE you,
>they are meant to SOOTHE you as MUSIC should.
Were you present during the music settings that you can tell us what that music
was meant to do to us? Please do not make these accusations simply becos you
happen to be ..er,, too enamoured by Naushad's music.
It's a pity that a composer with such a limited range can fool the public into
thinking he was the greatest ever despite the fact that there were many other
composers around that time far more brilliant than Naushad was. It either speaks
volumes of Naushad's PR and Marketing skills or the utter lack of musical sense
in his fans.
Ketan
PS: Have you been taking lessons in sycophancy and boot licking from those Lata
fans?