Hatto the Cult - How could it happen?
Proboscis
One thing that I don't understand is how this whole Hatto cult came into
existence.
If this fraud is basically a one man operation, how did he manage to get so
much attentention?
It might be worthwhile to investigate whether some who have been fuelling
the hype might also somehow be involved in this whole scam.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:45d66383$0$10622$c3e...@news.astraweb.com:
Now, what are the chances of that?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
John Wilson
wrote:
Deacon, one of the biggest of the Hatto hypers, has already admitted
that he and William Barrington-Coupe aka Coupe de Fraud are in
cahoots. So I would say the answer to you question is yes they are.
John
makropulos
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:06:49 +0800, "Proboscis" <probos...@gmx.net>
"I sense a musician with enormous heart in Joyce Hatto. This, today
specially, is something of a rarity in my experience, specially on
recordings. You have only to listen to the sweep and power of her
Liszt TEs,
for example, or to her Rachmaninoff Picos 2 & 3 to get this sense."
No prizes for guessing who gave us this expert assessment in 2005. How
delicious that he chose the Liszt TE and Rach 2nd and 3rd concertos to
find this "rarity" and such "enormous heart". The voice of so many
years of experience is wondrous to behold. Will the author of this
fantasy now come out and praise the "sweep and power" of Simon's
Liszt, and Bronfman's Rachmaninov? It would be nice to think so.
david...@aol.com
> >It might be worthwhile to investigate whether some who have been fuelling
> >the hype might also somehow be involved in this whole scam.
And even more likely that the investigation would be a colossal waste
of time.
> Deacon, one of the biggest of the Hatto hypers, has already admitted
> that he and William Barrington-Coupe aka Coupe de Fraud are in
> cahoots. So I would say the answer to you question is yes they are.
I should hope that Mr. Deacon in his retirement could manage to find a
more remunerative scam than promoting an unknown pianist on this
newsgroup. The most likely scenario is that he's been used by Mr. B-
C, and not to accomplish very much. If there's one thing more
humorous than the Hatto hoax, it's the exaggerated attributions of the
most monstrous vice and the greatest powers to Tom Deacon. I can only
hope that Al Pacino will be cast as Mr. Deacon so that he can reprise
his role in The Devil's Advocate if this story makes it to the silver
screen.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:1171695508.099775.253990
@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
No; Dakota Fanning.
Gerard
AFAIK long before Deacon wrote here about Hatto some reviewers at MusicWeb were
her advocates.
Tony Overington
> If this fraud is basically a one man operation, how did he manage to get so
> much attentention?
I believe it all started with MusicWeb. It seems that they try to
review as much as they can, and if they get a disc for free, you can
be sure it's going to get a review on the site. Then followed the
sales links through the site. However unlike Tom Deacon, MusicWeb
deserves some sympathy for falling victim to this scam, as it not only
hurts their revenue since they can no longer profit from the sales but
also their reputation as a reputable review site.
Kirk McElhearn
> I believe it all started with MusicWeb. It seems that they try to
> review as much as they can, and if they get a disc for free, you can
> be sure it's going to get a review on the site. Then followed the
> sales links through the site. However unlike Tom Deacon, MusicWeb
> deserves some sympathy for falling victim to this scam, as it not only
> hurts their revenue since they can no longer profit from the sales but
> also their reputation as a reputable review site.
I'm not going to speak for Len Mullenger, who runs MusicWeb, but as an
occasional MusicWeb reviewer, I can say that the site does review all
discs it receives. As for the scam, it's quite a shame, and I'm sure
Len will have more to say about that very soon.
Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
Henk van Tuijl
"Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1171707107.2...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
The first Hatto advocate I met here on RMCR was Alan Watkins. He praised
her Debussy Preludes.
Henk
Tony Overington
> The first Hatto advocate I met here on RMCR was Alan Watkins. He praised
> her Debussy Preludes.
>
> Henk
Apparently the MusicWeb reviews go back to February '03, probably some
time before anyone here started to speak of her.
Andrej Kluge
Henk van Tuijl schrieb:
> The first Hatto advocate I met here on RMCR was Alan Watkins. He
> praised her Debussy Preludes.
I found a thread started by Gerri Collins from January 25 2003, "Joyce
Hatto Plays Liszt":
Ciao
A.
Henk van Tuijl
"Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> schreef in bericht
news:53o6p0F...@mid.individual.net...
Andrej and Tony,
Good to hear that Alan Watkins wasn't in it from the very beginning.
Thanks!
Henk
Andrew Rose
Who plays me? And do I get the girl before the end of the movie? ;-)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
Paul Ilechko
>
> Who plays me? And do I get the girl before the end of the movie? ;-)
>
Weird Al Yankovic, and "no" ... ;-)
Paul Ilechko
> He has no influence, but
> reviewers have and some of theme are to blame for the Hatto hype, if
> there actually ever was one. There is always a nationalistic element
> among British/English reviewers and others who write about no matter
> what.
Guess who wrote *all* of the following:
No two ways about it: this is far and away the best played and most
inspired Albéniz Iberia available on a single disc.
Hatto's supple fingerwork achieves the kind of clarity and transparency
that should give better-known Hammerklavier practitioners pause.
Hatto's Op. 7 is an incredible piece of work, unquestionably deserving a
place among this sonata's reference recordings
...these are not the late pianist's 1992/97 Chopin Etudes, but rather
are remakes from 2003. The playing is simply extraordinary. Who'd ever
imagine that a relatively unknown 75-year-old woman could fuse technical
finesse and musical insight in ways that surpass her younger, more
famous colleagues?
Hatto manages to put an original stamp on these masterpieces without
violating their letter and spirit, and as such, her Chopin Ballades
deserve reference status.
For both books of Debussy's Preludes on a single disc in modern sound,
these highly recommendable performances attest to Hatto's intelligent
virtuosity and formidable recreative powers.
She is as idiomatic, intelligent, technically accomplished, and utterly
effortless a Godowsky player as they come, and that counts for a chosen few.
This is a Mephisto Waltz right up there with the best ever
...there is no doubt in my mind that hers is this cycle's most
technically accomplished, stylistically perceptive, and musically
satisfying traversal on disc since Claudio Arrau's.
Aspiring and established Messiaen players alike can learn a lot from
Hatto, who proudly enriches Vingt Regards' stellar discography.
...save Hatto's Mozart for connoisseurs, and ultimately for the desert
island.
Even if you already own one or two (or even three) Ravel cycles, Joyce
Hatto is too special to ignore.
Put this CD in your player, and within the first bars of Schubert's
"little" A major sonata you realize that you're in the presence of
interpretive greatness.
Andrej Kluge
Paul Ilechko schrieb:
> Guess who wrote *all* of the following:
Jed Distler
[snip]
Ciao
A.
Tony Overington
> Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> - Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:56:55 -0500
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
> > Guess who wrote *all* of the following:
>
>
> EM
Most likely Paul's point is that Distler should retire. For years
already he's been misleading the public with all those high
recommendations for Hough and Hewitt et al. Good riddance.
Paul Ilechko
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> - Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:56:55 -0500
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>
>
> EM
I thought I was agreeing with you. Does that bother you for some reason?
Paul Ilechko
Well, it certainly shows that he had good reason to be very concerned
when he finally realized that he'd been a victim of a hoax.
Steve de Mena
Sting. Or Bob Balaban if Sting is not available.
Yes.
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
I'm played by William H. Macy, and I end up with Anjelica Huston! ;--)
Phil Caron
"John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> Deacon, one of the biggest of the Hatto hypers, has already admitted
> that he and William Barrington-Coupe aka Coupe de Fraud are in
> cahoots.
I missed that admission. Reference, please.
- Phil Caron
Bob Lombard
"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:11717341...@r2d2.vermontel.net...
The reference is to a Deacon statement that he had been in communication
with B-C. I respectfully point out that *you* have been in communication
with B-C. Hmm...
bl
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:12teh3f...@corp.supernews.com:
> "Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
> news:11717341...@r2d2.vermontel.net...
>>
>> "John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> Deacon, one of the biggest of the Hatto hypers, has already admitted
>>> that he and William Barrington-Coupe aka Coupe de Fraud are in cahoots.
>>
>> I missed that admission. Reference, please.
>
> The reference is to a Deacon statement that he had been in communication
> with B-C. I respectfully point out that *you* have been in communication
> with B-C. Hmm...
But Deacon was the one "pushing" the "Hatto" recordings, not Phil.
O
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Goodness!
It sounds like the McCarthy hearings.
"Have you now or ever been in the past someone who recommended a Hatto
recording?"
Thank God I didn't like the two I bought!
-Owen, who heard the black helicopters passing him by.
Alan Briker
It is easy in the US to root for the underdog, here a woman battling cancer
and unable to show off her abilities in public. But the sheer volume of
recordings encompassing so many different styles should have aroused some
suspicion.
On 2/16/07 9:06 PM, in article 45d66383$0$10622$c3e...@news.astraweb.com,
"Proboscis" <prob...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> One thing that I don't understand is how this whole Hatto cult came into
> existence.
>
> If this fraud is basically a one man operation, how did he manage to get so
> much attentention?
>
Brendan R. Wehrung
*somebody's* Debussy Preludes, you mean?
It's been years, but i recall the furor over whether Anton Nanut was real
or a cousin of Alberto Lizzio.
Brendan
tomdeacon
> > In article <C1FCD9ED.59ACD%ajb...@optonline.net>, ajb...@optonline.net says...
> > Everyone likes a good human interest story, even if its a bit exaggerated.
> > It is easy in the US to root for the underdog, here a woman battling cancer
> > and unable to show off her abilities in public. But the sheer volume of
> > recordings encompassing so many different styles should have aroused some
> > suspicion.
>
> mentioned them was promptly vilified.
I presume, Reimer, that you are speaking of your disgusting display of
contempt from a year or so ago.
Do you consider that "suspicion"? I don't. It was conducted by someone
who had not heard a single track of JH at the time, with the possible
exception of a posted MSND transcription, all 5 minutes worth, who
simply took offense that some people, wrongly as it has turned out of
course, were attracted to the recordings, many of which were
excellent, of a forgotten pianist which had apparently been recorded
at great expense by her indulgent husband.
I shall not easily forget that display and consider it one of the
lowest points in the recent history of RMCR.
That the con took place is no longer in doubt. And the deceit was
monumental and devastating. But the behaviour of people like you was
disgraceful in the event. I have not noticed, however, your former
behaviour on display in this instance, only more or less factual
responses, for which you are to be commended.
But please don't consider yourself among the "suspicious" from the
start. Contemptuous is the only thing you were, and only of the so-
called hype surrounding Joyce Hatto.
The only person in this saga who was properly "suspicious" was Peter
Lemken. And again he was not going on his own personal experience of
the recordings, but simply the difficulty in locating a certain Rene
Kohler, about whom he was highly dubious. And rightly so.
TD
Peter Lemken
> The only person in this saga who was properly "suspicious" was Peter
> Lemken. And again he was not going on his own personal experience of
> the recordings, but simply the difficulty in locating a certain Rene
> Kohler
That is incorrect. I spotted the inconsistency when I listened to the second
recording I got my hands on (Chopin Ballades).
>, about whom he was highly dubious. And rightly so.
Of course.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
tomdeacon
> tomdeacon <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > The only person in this saga who was properly "suspicious" was Peter
> > Lemken. And again he was not going on his own personal experience of
> > the recordings, but simply the difficulty in locating a certain Rene
> > Kohler
>
> That is incorrect. I spotted the inconsistency when I listened to the second
> recording I got my hands on (Chopin Ballades).
>
> >, about whom he was highly dubious. And rightly so.
I don't recall your ever posting any comments on a specific recording,
particularly not in the beginning, when you were most dubious.
The communications with Ernst Lumpe were your most recent
contribution, I seem to recall.
But perhaps I have missed your comments on the Chopin Ballades and on
the first CD you acquired.
TD
Sacqueboutier
> "david...@aol.com" <david...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:1171695508.099775.253990
> @a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Feb 16, 11:30 pm, John Wilson <j...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> It might be worthwhile to investigate whether some who have been
>>>> fuelling the hype might also somehow be involved in this whole scam.
>>
>> And even more likely that the investigation would be a colossal waste
>> of time.
>>
>>> Deacon, one of the biggest of the Hatto hypers, has already admitted
>>> that he and William Barrington-Coupe aka Coupe de Fraud are in
>>> cahoots. So I would say the answer to you question is yes they are.
>>
>> I should hope that Mr. Deacon in his retirement could manage to find a
>> more remunerative scam than promoting an unknown pianist on this
>> newsgroup. The most likely scenario is that he's been used by Mr. B-
>> C, and not to accomplish very much. If there's one thing more humorous
>> than the Hatto hoax, it's the exaggerated attributions of the most
>> monstrous vice and the greatest powers to Tom Deacon. I can only hope
>> that Al Pacino will be cast as Mr. Deacon so that he can reprise his role
>> in The Devil's Advocate if this story makes it to the silver screen.
>
> No; Dakota Fanning.
Paris Hilton. He has about as much credibility as she does.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Sacqueboutier
Isn't he a little old for Dakota Fanning?
Peter Lemken
> I don't recall your ever posting any comments on a specific recording,
> particularly not in the beginning, when you were most dubious.
In which case you are invited to search google news.
Otterhouse Rolf
> Tony Overington wrote:
> > On 17 Feb, 15:26, EM <e-m-e-m-e-m-...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> - Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:56:55 -0500
> >> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
> >>> Guess who wrote *all* of the following:
> >> What's your point?
>
> >> EM
>
> > already he's been misleading the public with all those high
> > recommendations for Hough and Hewitt et al. Good riddance.
>
> Well, it certainly shows that he had good reason to be very concerned
> when he finally realized that he'd been a victim of a hoax.
But it was Jed D who discovered the fraud!
Rolf
Paul Ilechko
Yes, and ... ?
Distler had listened to, and given rave reviews to, all those Hatto CDs.
He is presumably a piano expert, but never once did he spot a surprising
similarity to another performance, and never once did he wonder how one
person could play so much music so well in so many styles. His computer
finally tipped him off, which probably scared the hell out of him, and
with good reason.
MrT
> Distler had listened to, and given rave reviews to, all those Hatto CDs.
> He is presumably a piano expert, but never once did he spot a surprising
> similarity to another performance, and never once did he wonder how one
> person could play so much music so well in so many styles. His computer
> finally tipped him off, which probably scared the hell out of him, and
> with good reason.
I don't think Distler has any honorable option but to stop reviewing
classical music. In my opinion, he has no credibility. But before
quitting, he should give an explanation of what really happened. This
business with iTunes seems too pat, too simple, too serendipitous.
Best,
MrT
REG
she was even before the 70s. Rarely to these people suddenly begin a life of
dissimulation out of a specific life circumstance. She apparently had a
laundry-list of pianists she'd 'studied with' and 'consulted', and there's
some reference to her having gotten a praising letter from Furtwangler
(presumably before his death in 1954). How much real verification is there
of a lot of this?
"Alan Briker" <ajb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:C1FCD9ED.59ACD%ajb...@optonline.net...
David Fox
> But I think the question also reasonably becomes how much of a psychopath
> she was even before the 70s. Rarely to these people suddenly begin a life of
> dissimulation out of a specific life circumstance. She apparently had a
> laundry-list of pianists she'd 'studied with' and 'consulted', and there's
> some reference to her having gotten a praising letter from Furtwangler
> (presumably before his death in 1954). How much real verification is there
> of a lot of this?
>
> "Alan Briker" <ajb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> news:C1FCD9ED.59ACD%ajb...@optonline.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Everyone likes a good human interest story, even if its a bit exaggerated.
> > It is easy in the US to root for the underdog, here a woman battling
> > cancer
> > and unable to show off her abilities in public. But the sheer volume of
> > recordings encompassing so many different styles should have aroused some
> > suspicion.
>
> > "Proboscis" <probos...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >> One thing that I don't understand is how this whole Hatto cult came into
> >> existence.
>
> >> If this fraud is basically a one man operation, how did he manage to get
> >> so
> >> much attentention?
>
> >> It might be worthwhile to investigate whether some who have been fuelling
> >> the hype might also somehow be involved in this whole scam.
My life experience is that people who commit fraud tend to do so
repeatedly if given the opportunity. B-C had a history of fraud that
came to light on at least two previous occasions. My guess is that
this wasn't all.
Ms. Hatto was a pianist who performed in public prior to 1980. There
is no documented evidence of her engaging in anything unsavory other
than being married B-C prior to the current scandal.
There are any number of possibilities and there are enough people
currently looking into any and all of them. My strong suspicion is
that the real Joyce Hatto passed away sometime prior to the "Hatto
Renaissance" (2002 or so).
B-C then went about his business. Anything involving her could have
been faked, even a sit-down interview provided he found somebody
willing to act the part. Let's see what medical records they come up
with - after all, there should be plenty of them. And how many sit-
down interviews (or even phone interviews) were there?
Who knows, but I'm sure we'll find out soon.
DF
REG
suggesting, in terms of her passing away and it not being noted. Stranger
things have happened, but I find that one far-fetched because it would
involve a great many people.
"David Fox" <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171817502.9...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Sacqueboutier
I'm inclined to give Mr. Distler a break here. He's listened to how many
piano recordings over the years? Hearing similarities between this Hatto
disc he just heard and some recording he heard 20 years ago is asking
a bit much.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:45d721cb$0$24770$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
> Andrew Rose wrote:
>>
>> Who plays me? And do I get the girl before the end of the movie? ;-)
>
> Sting. Or Bob Balaban if Sting is not available.
>
> Yes.
Better Sting should play Mr. Rose in the movie than undertake another
Dowland recording like the one DGG has been desperately flogging. It was
playing in the JAZZ (and a bit of classical) department when I visited the
Virgin Megastore yesterday, and I was going to comment on it here, but the
memory was just so painful that I must have blocked it out. On the
krossover krappiness scale, it rates a solid 900 milliboltons.
When Mr. Sumner had finished rasping, the disc changer moved on to a
collection of Antonio Carlos Jobim hits. Ahh. A fine musician doing what
he does best, as opposed to that other thing.
Shoemaker, stick to your last!
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> My life experience is that people who commit fraud tend to do so
> repeatedly if given the opportunity. B-C had a history of fraud that
> came to light on at least two previous occasions. My guess is that
> this wasn't all.
Note that Clifford Irving wrote a book about art forger Elmyr de Hory, before
beginning work on the "autobiography" of Howard Hughes.
to...@btinternet.com
Does anyone recall the pianist Irene Kohler? I knew the name rang a
bell. And that biographical note is hysterically bizarre.
Craig
wrote:
> And don't forget that the people atCHARMseem to have discovered it,
> too. It's not clear to me exactly when they did, or when they would
> have made the information public. Maybe they only checked their data
> after the story broke. I wish they'd clarify that.
>
> wr
Search for "Yet Another Hatto Similarity" you hilariously entertaining
rmcr's
and you will see the message where they first announced in rmcr their
findings.
Also note the thousands of replies, flames, conspiracy theories,
counter-conspiracy theories which occur in the same thread...
tomdeacon
> On 2007-02-17 02:39:16 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> said:
>
>
>
> > "david7ga...@aol.com" <david7ga...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
Does her bank account come along with that association?
TD
MrT
> Does her bank account come along with that association?
No, only an account for the blood bank and an autographed CD of
Matsuzawa's Chopin etudes.
Best,
MrT
tomdeacon
> I'm inclined to give Mr. Distler a break here. He's listened to how many
> piano recordings over the years? Hearing similarities between this Hatto
> disc he just heard and some recording he heard 20 years ago is asking
> a bit much.
Distler is too young to ask to come up with even less than that.
Bryce Morrison would be a different cup of tea. In my experience he
has almost total recall of every performance he has ever heard. It's
really almost surreal how many details he can call forth at the drop
of a hat. If you ask him, he can tell you what each pianist played in
each round of any piano competition he has ever attended together with
details about each interpretation.
And yet, even a sophisticated, knowledgeable critic like him noticed
nothing at all. And he remembers absolutely everything.
TD
Peter Lemken
There was no need for him to remember. All the Hatto critics with a more
than superficial knowledge of piano music, performances and recordings
(Sorry Tom, that excludes you) go by a certain pattern when listening to a
new recording. It was not the critics' job to listen for a scam (unless they
were suspicious anyway), but to listen to a CD of an artist. Presented with
recordings that were competent, noiseless and in acceptable acoustics, these
critics listened to what they would hope to hear in a really good
performance.
Unlike our Canadian Clown, none of the critics reviewed a Hatto recording and
compared it to other, landmarkish performances by Richter, Horowitz,
Michelangeli or Gilels, finding Hatto superior. What they heard were
competent performances, some of them even more than that. Ashkenazy's Brahms
and Bronfman's Rachmaninov are hardly landmarks in these specific
performances. The choice of recordings so far has been careful to avoid any
extreme, showing any really grand piano playing. Someone has been very
careful in selecting recordings that were not by pianists with cultish
followers and recordings that were very competent, but so middle of the road
that identification in the masses of other very competent recordings would
become an arduous task.
Add to that the amateurish efforts at "enhancing" the sound. The result is
pitiful sometimes, not noticable in the best of cases as in the orchestra
recording.
When listening to piano recordings, I have a very distinct image of the
piano, its location, brand, size, microphone placement, natural vs.
artificial reverb, hall properties etc. Any memorable performance has some
kind of sound image imprinted in me, but the brain can be fooled when major
parameters are altered.
Coming back to your original statement:
Any worthwile piano critic would have immediately noticed, had Hatto's
recordings consisted of Gould's Goldbergs, Richter's Prokofiev 8th sonata,
Horowitz' Rachmaninoff sonata or Zhukov's Tchaikovsky 2nd concerto.
The choice of recordings was done skillfully, plus the efforts at disguising
their true origin by packaging, story telling and sonic manipulations were
sufficient to trick people into buying the story. Add to that a finetuned,
well schemed bad-cop/good-cop story and a bunch of messianic followers and
you know why critics were fooled.
You, on the other hand, Tom Deacom, were simply blind and incompetent.
Craig
wrote:
> > In article <1171905098.651629.45...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> So you are saying you representCHARM? And "just announced" isn't
> exactly a date, and the material on their website is undated. So, that
> leaves me where I was.
Well the point is that we announced our findings first to the public
in that post, so you can take a look at the timestamp on that message
as to when we publically release our findings.
Since our cover was blown, there was no reason to hold back
our findings, so we decided it would be fitting to release it here,
where we had been observing you like bugs in a glass jar.
>And, BTW, there's exactly one other post in that thread, not thousands.
My fault, thanks for correcting me.
Simon Roberts
tomdeacon
> There was no need for him to remember. All the Hatto critics with a more
> than superficial knowledge of piano music, performances and recordings
> (Sorry Tom, that excludes you)
HA HA HA HA HA
Sorry, I do have to laugh at that comment, which comes from the former
agent of that drunk piano banger Zhukov!!!
go by a certain pattern when listening to a
> new recording. It was not the critics' job to listen for a scam (unless they
> were suspicious anyway), but to listen to a CD of an artist. Presented with
> recordings that were competent, noiseless and in acceptable acoustics, these
> critics listened to what they would hope to hear in a really good
> performance.
Gee.
And I always thought they were listening to music.
What a strange way to listen.
Then again, for someone like you, maybe not.
> Unlike our Canadian Clown, none of the critics reviewed a Hatto recording and
> compared it to other, landmarkish performances by Richter, Horowitz,
> Michelangeli or Gilels, finding Hatto superior. What they heard were
> competent performances, some of them even more than that.
Since you have such slight knowledge of the Hatto discography, don't
you think you're talking through your hat?
Perhaps a little listening might not be such a bad thing for you to
indulge in. This time try listening to the music for a change.
Ashkenazy's Brahms
> and Bronfman's Rachmaninov are hardly landmarks in these specific
> performances. The choice of recordings so far has been careful to avoid any
> extreme, showing any really grand piano playing. Someone has been very
> careful in selecting recordings that were not by pianists with cultish
> followers and recordings that were very competent, but so middle of the road
> that identification in the masses of other very competent recordings would
> become an arduous task.
Arduous? Is it indeed even the responsibility of a listener?
> Add to that the amateurish efforts at "enhancing" the sound. The result is
> pitiful sometimes, not noticable in the best of cases as in the orchestra
> recording.
Many low budget recordings often sound rather "amateurish", something
like the statements you have been making in this post.
Yours, however, have a veneer of pompous pseudo-knowledge about them
which will certainly impress the hoi polloi.
> When listening to piano recordings, I have a very distinct image of the
> piano, its location, brand, size, microphone placement, natural vs.
> artificial reverb, hall properties etc. Any memorable performance has some
> kind of sound image imprinted in me, but the brain can be fooled when major
> parameters are altered.
Indeed.
But when do you start listening to music? It is really rather weird.
You listen like a microphone?
> Coming back to your original statement:
>
> Any worthwile piano critic would have immediately noticed, had Hatto's
> recordings consisted of Gould's Goldbergs, Richter's Prokofiev 8th sonata,
> Horowitz' Rachmaninoff sonata or Zhukov's Tchaikovsky 2nd concerto.
Even I would have recognized the last. Tim Pan Alley in a barrel!!!
> The choice of recordings was done skillfully, plus the efforts at disguising
> their true origin by packaging, story telling and sonic manipulations were
> sufficient to trick people into buying the story. Add to that a finetuned,
> well schemed bad-cop/good-cop story and a bunch of messianic followers and
> you know why critics were fooled.
Of course.
> You, on the other hand, Tom Deacom, were simply blind and incompetent.
You, on the other hand, Peter Lumpkin, are simply rude and insulting.
Some private research in Essen among a fellow student and later
colleague in the musical flesh trade in Germany provides a, shall we
say, less than pretty picture on one Peter Lemken. I think the word
"ass" was thrown about a few timesl It also seems that they didn't
like you in Salzburg either, where you were summarily fired from an
agency there for incompetence and bad work. Too many nights over
bottles of Vodka with Zhukov, perhaps?
In any event, given a choice - thank God I don't have to make it, at
least not for now - I would prefer the fate you claimed for me.
Incidentally. My name is spelled with an "n", not an "m".
TD
tomdeacon
> In article <1171925519.847761.174...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, tomdeacon
Unproven.
To date.
TD
tomdeacon
> "tomdeacon" <tomdedea...@mac.com> - 19 Feb 2007 14:51:59 -0800 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
> > Bryce Morrison would be a different cup of tea.(...)
> > And yet, even a sophisticated, knowledgeable critic like him noticed
> > nothing at all. And he remembers absolutely everything.
>
> website) are by Bryce Morrison, clearly more of a fan than a critical
> reviewer in these cases. That's not a sign of a sound editorial
> policy.
Write a note to Mr. Inherne with your thoughts.
TD
Richard Loeb
"EM" <e-m-e-m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3mfkt2t0v1klpvbos...@4ax.com...
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> - 19 Feb 2007 14:51:59 -0800 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> Bryce Morrison would be a different cup of tea.(...)
>
>> And yet, even a sophisticated, knowledgeable critic like him noticed
>> nothing at all. And he remembers absolutely everything.
>
> predictable - he just doesn't get it, does he, the reason for his
> vilification here Richard
jhopk...@gmail.com
> But I think the question also reasonably becomes how much of a psychopath
> she was even before the 70s. Rarely to these people suddenly begin a life of
> dissimulation out of a specific life circumstance. She apparently had a
> laundry-list of pianists she'd 'studied with' and 'consulted', and there's
> some reference to her having gotten a praising letter from Furtwangler
> (presumably before his death in 1954). How much real verification is there
> of a lot of this?
>
> "Alan Briker" <ajb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> news:C1FCD9ED.59ACD%ajb...@optonline.net...
>
>
>
> > Everyone likes a good human interest story, even if its a bit exaggerated.
> > It is easy in the US to root for the underdog, here a woman battling
> > cancer
> > and unable to show off her abilities in public. But the sheer volume of
> > recordings encompassing so many different styles should have aroused some
> > suspicion.
>
> > "Proboscis" <probos...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >> One thing that I don't understand is how this whole Hatto cult came into
> >> existence.
>
> >> If this fraud is basically a one man operation, how did he manage to get
> >> so
> >> much attentention?
>
> >> It might be worthwhile to investigate whether some who have been fuelling
>
> - Show quoted text -
> some reference to her having gotten a praising letter from Furtwangler
> (presumably before his death in 1954).
The letter has proven to be a forgery, actually authored by Rene
Kohler.
Craig
wrote:
> It is interesting they are, along with their other activities, doing
> sociological studies of newsgroups; I can't wait for the results.
Actually, when dealing with newsgroups it is more of a pathalogical
study.
MrT
Me, I think it is a branch of pataphysics. OULIPO lives!
Best,
MrT
Craig
> Me, I think it is a branch of pataphysics. OULIPO lives!
Good one MrT.
Craig
> assume you were innocent of any wrongdoing.
I pleaded insanity and they let me go free.
Paul Ilechko
> And don't forget that the people at CHARM seem to have discovered it,
> too.
CHARM ?
REG
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1171933293....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Taffy Brendel
Who is Peter Lumpkin? A little Freudian slip there Deak? For that
matter how many boxes of wine have you knocked back today? You seem
to be a little peevish wouldn't you agree of course?
Indeed, you are right in the spelling of your name - it is "n" as in
"clowN".
Taffy
Richard Loeb
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45da7ae0$0$28084$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Just keep posting, Deacon - it just gets to be a truer picture of your
personality and the hole you are digging just gets deeper - and you really
must control these postings about your sexual, shall I say, fantasies - they
keep surfacing and I don't think would be welcome if brought out in the open
in Moose Bay or wherever the hell in Canada you live Richard
Richard Loeb
"Taffy Brendel" <taffy_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171959583....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
to play with names of posters he doesn't like - really something I would
expect from a child -perhaps Alzheimers is setting in - who knows (or
cares) Richard
Paul Ilechko
>> In article <53v96vF...@mid.individual.net>, pile...@patmedia.net says...
>
> http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/
>
That's funny, because I went to Royal Holloway College, and I've never
heard of this organization. Presumably it didn't exist back in the late
seventies ...
Craig
but has anyone noticed the last paragraph on the main
page of Concert Artists?
http://www.concertartistrecordings.com/
<<We have received many letters and emails asking for copies of the
interviews that have been broadcast. It is not possible for us, at
present, to send such copies but it is our intention to seek
permission and make these interviews and conversations available in
due course.>>
tomdeacon
> I assume this is another part of your Christian upbringing?
Of course.
Jesus taught us to stand up for ourselves, you know, as well as turn
the other cheek.
I just turned one to you. Guess which one!
TD
tomdeacon
wrote:
> > In article <53v96vF1u9sf...@mid.individual.net>, pilec...@patmedia.net says...
Wouldn't the millions of pounds be better spend lowering wait times in
the NHS?
TD
tomdeacon
=
> No he wrote Lumpkin on purpose - its the same little child's game he likes to play with names of posters he doesn't like - really something I would expect from a child -perhaps Alzheimers is setting in - who knows (or cares)
It must have been a slip of the finger, Dick. We have such wonderful
precedents for such slips on RMCR.
Shall I remind you? Brendull. Jackoff_Hofmann. Taffy Brendel.
That makes me wonder. Are you a sock-puppet, Dick?
TD
Tony Overington
They're working on that by attempting to increase human lifespan so
people can live long enough to visit an NHS doctor.
tomdeacon
Have you not realized by now that EVERYTHING is part of the lie. The
"big lie" was followed by lots and lots of little lies, which serve to
back it up.
And people find this funny?
Weird sense of humour some people have.
TD
Paul Ilechko
> I realise that irony is a difficult concept to grasp for rmcr'ers,
Do you get paid to be obnoxious, or is it just a hobby?
Craig
> Do you get paid to be obnoxious, or is it just a hobby?
Purely a hobby. What's your story?
Craig
> Wouldn't the millions of pounds be better spend lowering wait times in
> the NHS?
I humbly bow before the true master of flames. I am but a humble
acolyte basking in your presence.
Paul Ilechko
I try to be nice to people, but sometimes it's hard.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:oIOdnYPrG6WIWkfY...@comcast.com:
> No he wrote Lumpkin on purpose - its the same little child's game he
> likes to play with names of posters he doesn't like - really something I
> would expect from a child -perhaps Alzheimers is setting in - who knows
> (or cares) Richard
Richard, would you PLEASE try to learn how to trim a post so that you don't
have to quote the whole @#$%^&ing 100+ lines to add your four-line comment?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5410vgF...@mid.individual.net:
> I try to be nice to people
*spit-take*
Craig
> That's funny, because I went to Royal Holloway College, and I've never
> heard of this organization. Presumably it didn't exist back in the late
> seventies ...
It is a front organisation for siphoning money from the NHS, as my
lord and master has pointed out in a previous post. I guess you were
too busy posting non-obnoxious messages way back then
to rec.music.classical.recording to have noticed it. I smell a
conspiracy in all of this somewhere.