Another comment on Joyce Hatto
alanwa...@aol.com
It is a long review but here is the opening of same:
"A quiet English market town not far from Cambridge is the home of one
of our greatest living pianists. She has not appeared in public for 30
years.
"As Addenbrooke's Hospital longest surviving ovarian cancer patient she
confines her activities to the recording studio.
"Now aged 77, Joyce Hatto has amassed a discography that few pianists,
past or present have equalled.
"Each recording from the dozens I have heard so far compares with or
surpasses the benchmark recordings of world famous pianists."
Author Jeremy Nicholas.
Sort of YAAAAY but I suspect both I and the International Piano
Quarterly and/or Mr Nicholas are going to be torn apart for either
posting it or publishing it.
I'm percussion and often out on my own with no one to help. Sometimes
completely isolated.
So hey ho anyway:):)
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Handel8
Did you see that Hatto was mentioned very favorably but briefly in
the latest issue of Grampohone ? Her recording of Balakeriv's Islamey
was in the top two or three in the survey; they even show the album
cover !!
It is on page 31 and 33 of my issue. The relevent quote on her in the
article is:
"The remarkable Joyce Hatto made her studio recording in 1999 when she
was 71. Speed is not her main concern (though at 8' 21" she is among
the fastest on disc) nor Horowitzian octaves. Rather, it is the intense
musical pleasure she derives from the piece, conveying its delights and
not its difficulties. Hatto's pinaistic joie de vivre makes a unigue
Islamey.
So - Hatto, Berezovsky, Fiorentino, Cziffra (1954), Horowitz and,
for old times's sake, Barere. Those are the ones fro me, though I look
forward in due course to hearing from Messrs Hough, Hamelin, Shelley,
Volodos and Sudbin. "
The writer of the above was Jeremy Nicholas.
Note to newbies to Hatto- they are generally only available for
purchase from Crotchet.com in the UK. The record label is Concert
Artist in the UK also. They have a web site, but they don't seem to
provide for direct purchases, whcih is pretty strange, but there you
are.
Alan Prichard
Tony - sidoze
pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
But then what am I talking about? Once word gets out that the elusive
JH is British, *all* the British press wil praise her and she'll be
saved from obscurity in no time.
Peter Lemken
> With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
> pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
> the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
Is there a compilation of who wrote the liner notes to all of Mrs. Hatto's
recordings?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.
(Harry Rowohlt)
tomdeacon
Correct.
There is no nation in which "chamber-of-commerce boosterism" is more
alive and well than the UK. The Gramophone has usually been the home
for this kind of critical crap, most apparent in the use of "brilliant"
in a slightly pejorative sense to describe ANY American orchestra. The
British, you see, don't really like professionals; they support, nay,
they champion, the amateur. To their ears the Chicago Symphony is
simply "too good" to be really musical, you see.
Perhaps that is the explanation for the Joyce Hatto phenomenon. She
simply plays TOO well, TOO professionally, to be considered with the
gifted amateurs who grace the average concert hall in the UK, most of
whom would never get a date at Carnegie Hall unless they rented the
hall themselves.
TD
Raymond Hall
news:1138192103....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tony - sidoze wrote:
>> With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
>> pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
>> the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
>>
>> But then what am I talking about? Once word gets out that the elusive
>> JH is British, *all* the British press wil praise her and she'll be
>> saved from obscurity in no time.
>
> Correct.
Bullshit. You need some more moose-brain injections.
> There is no nation in which "chamber-of-commerce boosterism" is more
> alive and well than the UK.
As much as the US? Don't make us all laugh. Humour isn't your strong point.
> in a slightly pejorative sense to describe ANY American orchestra. The
> British, you see, don't really like professionals; they support, nay,
> they champion, the amateur. To their ears the Chicago Symphony is
> simply "too good" to be really musical, you see.
Totally screwed up logic. Nothing to do with musicality at all. Ever heard
any Solti recordings? The most unmusical conductor that ever was permitted
onto a podium.
> simply plays TOO well, TOO professionally, to be considered with the
> gifted amateurs who grace the average concert hall in the UK, most of
Another step into oblivion and a statement that will last for eternity. And
what has musicality got to do with ANYthing you say? The average moose is
more discerning than you will ever be.
Time to pack your bags, and go picking oranges, or is it grapes, methinks.
Ray H
Taree
alanwa...@aol.com
In some cases the inlay notes are by the pianist - the 75th anniversary
of Chopin Etudes, at least one of the Lizst Verdi transcription discs
and the Mozart sonatas certainly are.
Notes for the Chopin concerti are by Burnett James. Several other
discs have notes by William Hedley including the Prokofiev Sonatas.
In the Chopin Preludes and Brahms PC 2 the inlay notes are uncredited
although extensive in both cases.
That is as far as I have been able to check at the moment.
alanwa...@aol.com
Jeremy Nicholas is Godowsky's biographer. I understand that this is
how JH came to his attention with her recordings of that composer's
"take" on the Chopin Etudes.
Mr Nicholas is quite well known in the UK and has his own website
http://www.jeremynicholas.com
tomdeacon
I see that Ray is still coming up with those cogent, rational and
compelling replies.
Keep it up.
Fortunately you're "down under", in more ways than one, I would
suggest.
TD
Len of MusicWeb
Note to newbies to Hatto- they are generally only available for
purchase from Crotchet.com in the UK. The record label is Concert
Artist in the UK also. They have a web site, but they don't seem to
provide for direct purchases, whcih is pretty strange, but there you
are.
Alan Prichard
They can also be purchased through MusicWeb International.
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Concert_Artist/Index.htm
elu...@freenet.de
> Tony - sidoze <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
> > pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
> > the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
>
> Is there a compilation of who wrote the liner notes to all of Mrs. Hatto's
> recordings?
>
> Peter Lemken
> Berlin
It seems there is NO WAY for some here to avoid any kind insinuation re
Hatto since that initial praise from Tom and the horrendously tasteless
things that followed. Schiller was right: "Es kann der beste nicht in
Frieden leben, wenn es dem bösen Nachbarn nicht gefällt."
EL
Peter Lemken
> Peter Lemken schrieb:
>
> > Tony - sidoze <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
> > > pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
> > > the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
> >
> > Is there a compilation of who wrote the liner notes to all of Mrs. Hatto's
> > recordings?
>
> Hatto since that initial praise from Tom and the horrendously tasteless
> things that followed. Schiller was right: "Es kann der beste nicht in
> Frieden leben, wenn es dem bösen Nachbarn nicht gefällt."
Oh yes, there arecertainly more ways to achieve what you want to achieve.
However, one of the best ways NOT to achieve what you want to achieve is to
insinuate that all critics must be idiots, hearing impaired, clueless and
hideous.
Combine that with hiring critics to write liner notes and refusing to let
interested listeners listen to more than just two tiny pieces (Liszt
Mephisto waltz (or about 30 seconds of it) and a mediocre, old recording of
Mendelssohn/Rachmaninov), plus having Tom Deacon as marketing hyper par
excellence, is a GUARANTEE for raised suspicions with those who don't fall
for marketing hype.
Add to that something like "I am perfectly happy to send you the CD as I
promised I would and I will hopefully get it off to you tomorrow - I need to
find some reasonably secure packaging first.." and the fact that the CD
never arrived or subsequent e-Mails were never answered and you got my alarm
bells about the the whole thing being a scam ringing at full blast.
What exactly would be the problem to silence all the critics and put some of
her best recordings online to download for free? Not whole CDs, but
excerpts. I would be surprised, if people who liked her playing would not
buy the whole CD immediately and immediately raise the number of CDs sold?
To come back to my original question: Has Jeremy Nicholas written any liner
notes to any of Mrs. Hatto's recordings?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
tomdeacon
Peter Lemken wrote:
> elu...@freenet.de wrote:
> > Peter Lemken schrieb:
> >
> > > Tony - sidoze <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
> > > > pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
> > > > the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
> > >
> > > Is there a compilation of who wrote the liner notes to all of Mrs. Hatto's
> > > recordings?
> >
> > It seems there is NO WAY for some here to avoid any kind insinuation re
> > Hatto since that initial praise from Tom and the horrendously tasteless
> > things that followed. Schiller was right: "Es kann der beste nicht in
> > Frieden leben, wenn es dem bösen Nachbarn nicht gefällt."
>
> Oh yes, there arecertainly more ways to achieve what you want to achieve.
> However, one of the best ways NOT to achieve what you want to achieve is to
> insinuate that all critics must be idiots, hearing impaired, clueless and
> hideous.
It would seem that "important" critics in Germany have already
pronounced, and favourably, on Ms. Hatto.
Perhaps you are smarting because you are not considered either a critic
or important, something that even a fool would be prepared to
recognize, I would have thought.
>
> Combine that with hiring critics to write liner notes and refusing to let
> interested listeners listen to more than just two tiny pieces (Liszt
> Mephisto waltz (or about 30 seconds of it) and a mediocre, old recording of
> Mendelssohn/Rachmaninov), plus having Tom Deacon as marketing hyper par
> excellence, is a GUARANTEE for raised suspicions with those who don't fall
> for marketing hype.
You confuse enthusiasm with "marketing hype".
I market NOTHING.
I only express my positive reactions to recording if and when I feel
positive towards them. Any suggestions to the contrary are not only
absurd, they are patently false.
> Add to that something like "I am perfectly happy to send you the CD as I
> promised I would and I will hopefully get it off to you tomorrow - I need to
> find some reasonably secure packaging first.." and the fact that the CD
> never arrived or subsequent e-Mails were never answered and you got my alarm
> bells about the the whole thing being a scam ringing at full blast.
Now you complain about not being on the JH "gravy train"!!!
What gall!
Frankly, after the snide comments you have made about Ms. Hatto, I
wouldn't give you the smell of the proverbial oil-rag.
> What exactly would be the problem to silence all the critics and put some of
> her best recordings online to download for free? Not whole CDs, but
> excerpts. I would be surprised, if people who liked her playing would not
> buy the whole CD immediately and immediately raise the number of CDs sold?
"Critics"?
You flatter yourself.
You're just a has-been manager of a third-rate pianist.
Perhaps, in fact, you are simply jealous that it is not Igor Zhukov who
has recorded 90 CDs of distinguished repertoire.
> To come back to my original question: Has Jeremy Nicholas written any liner
> notes to any of Mrs. Hatto's recordings?
I would hope that he has.
He writes extremely well and is specially knowledgeable about the music
of Leopold Godowsky, whose biography he has written. Perhaps you have
read it?
Or not.
You are simply bent upon "proving" that the favourable review in IP has
been written by someone who may have written notes for JH's CDs.
Mean-spirited. Vile. Envious. Small.
TD
Dan Koren
news:1138152862.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sort of YAAAAY but I suspect both I and the International Piano
> Quarterly and/or Mr Nicholas are going to be torn apart for either
> posting it or publishing it.
>
The IPQ should be torn apart regardless....
dk
Dan Koren
"Handel8" <ala...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1138188439.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> "The remarkable Joyce Hatto made her studio recording in 1999 when she
> was 71. Speed is not her main concern (though at 8' 21" she is among
> the fastest on disc)
Non-sense.
Plenty of Islamey performances clock at
around 8' plus a few seconds, and if
memory serves a couple even manage
to cut under 8' (Gavrilov? Barere?).
dk
Dan Koren
>
> I market NOTHING.
>
ROTFL !!!
You market *YOURSELF*, and you do it
with such zeal as if you believed
every word would open the Heaven's
Gates for you.
I suppose Seeleys Bay is too far
and too cold for shrinks to ever
get there....
dk
tomdeacon
Dan Koren wrote:
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1138281978.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> >
> > I market NOTHING.
> >
>
>
> ROTFL !!!
>
> You market *YOURSELF*
Far better than marketing KOREN.
Not only would it be futile, it would be so depressing.
TD
Todd Schurk
Claudio Arrau clocks in at 7'47"....Hehehehe...Why don't you give
everyone a nice surprise and reserve comment just for a change of pace.
Gerard
If it has ears, there's allways somebody who could use them.
Steve Emerson
wrote:
7:47 for Barere.
BTW whom do we talk to about getting this piece banned? I'd like to see
something like the sign in the guitar shop of "Wayne's World" -- "NO
STAIRWAY."
SE.
graham
"Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-9C0A78....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
> In article <43d8deda$1...@news.meer.net>, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Handel8" <ala...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:1138188439.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > "The remarkable Joyce Hatto made her studio recording in 1999 when she
>> > was 71. Speed is not her main concern (though at 8' 21" she is among
>> > the fastest on disc)
>>
>>
>> Non-sense.
>>
>> Plenty of Islamey performances clock at
>> around 8' plus a few seconds, and if
>> memory serves a couple even manage
>> to cut under 8' (Gavrilov? Barere?).
>
> 7:47 for Barere.
>
speed - there's a long, lyrical passage in the middle! If you are going to
compare timings, do it for the Prokofiev Toccata!
Graham
alanwa...@aol.com
>
> BTW whom do we talk to about getting this piece banned? I'd like to see
> something like the sign in the guitar shop of "Wayne's World" -- "NO
> STAIRWAY."
>
> SE.
I can see it's worth as a vehicle for pianistic virtuosity but I have
to say I have never been very much taken with it as a piece of music -
nor the orchestral version. The latter does appear to have sunk
without trace - or at least I have not seen it on a concert programme
for a very long time. I don't know what the picture is with recordings
of it.
abac...@att.net
observations are that she certainly is a fine pianist......... great,
not to my ears. Others may feel different. The suggestion below is an
excellent idea
AB
> > What exactly would be the problem to silence all the critics and put some of
> her best recordings online to download for free? Not whole CDs, but
> excerpts. I would be surprised, if people who liked her playing would not
> buy the whole CD immediately and immediately raise the number of CDs sold?
>
alanwa...@aol.com
abac...@att.net wrote:
> I have her Chopin sonatas and the Transcendental Etudes. My
> observations are that she certainly is a fine pianist......... great,
> not to my ears. Others may feel different. The suggestion below is an
> excellent idea
>
>
> AB
I think that an honest opinion and a fair statement on your behalf. At
least you have listened to the recordings you mentioned and made a
judgment thereon.
I have no argument with that.
Just as I think that (live) Altrichter and the Prague Symphony
completely outplay Szell/Cleveland in Dvorak Op 46/72 in what the
composer actually wrote, particularly as to dynamics.
As always it will be a matter of opinion but at least we have listened
to it or taken part in it before voicing such opinion:):)
Phil Caron
news:1138320567....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have her Chopin sonatas and the Transcendental Etudes. My
> observations are that she certainly is a fine pianist......... great,
> not to my ears. Others may feel different.
I listened to Hatto's recording of Liszt's 2nd Annee (Italy) yesterday.
Excellent playing. She lingered in some lyrical passages overlong for my
taste, but most of Hatto's interpretive choices seemed middle of the road,
which projected as expertly as she does was mostly very effective. I say
mostly, because some of these pieces could use a little something extra,
though others may feel differently about that.
Hatto can do several different things at once - dynamics, articulations,
etc, so her sound is not one dimensional. Other than that, she didn't sound
particularly colorful in her use of the instrument. I didn't like the
clangy midrange sound of the piano and hope her other recordings are not
that way. Overall, though, my attention was held from start to finish (a
blistering Tarentella). Like Arri, I didn't get "great", but it was very
good indeed, and more investigation is indicated.
- Phil Caron
tomdeacon
Phil Caron wrote:
> Hatto can do several different things at once - dynamics, articulations,
> etc, so her sound is not one dimensional. Other than that, she didn't sound
> particularly colorful in her use of the instrument. I didn't like the
> clangy midrange sound of the piano and hope her other recordings are not
> that way. Overall, though, my attention was held from start to finish (a
> blistering Tarentella). Like Arri, I didn't get "great", but it was very
> good indeed, and more investigation is indicated.
And that is precisely the point.
There is much to investigate. I have actually done that, and at
considerable expense I have to say. The complete Beethoven and Mozart
Sonatas, the Prokofiev Sonatas, the three volumes of Scarlatti (these,
by the way, are a sheer joy from start to finish and there is a fourth
volume I have on order), the Rachmaninoff piano music, Schumann,
Brahms, and so on and on and on.
THAT is the point which relates to "greatness". I have rarely
encountered a pianist with such wide and deep sympathy for the music
she performs. AdL, for example, is fine in Spanish music, and some 18th
C music, but really lost in the big German romantics and in Beethoven,
in my opinion. What we have in JH is a pianist who runs the gamut from
the Baroque era right through to Prokofiev with equal sympathy. She is
what I choose to call a true virtuoso, that is to say, a pianist who
can play everything. Comparisons to someone like AH or AS are in order.
Neither of them are really any good at all outside of a tiny world that
they inhabit, mostly by choice but also by necessity.
This "virtuosity" is something you only find among the greatest
pianists, and here I am speaking of ABM, EG, SR, SR(the younger one),
etc. JH, on my extensive listening, shares that same ability. If others
will take the time and expense to investigate her enormous repertoire
more carefully they will find that I am describing the situation
accurately. Indeed, JH goes the above-named pianists one better and
includes things like the Chopin-Godowsky Etudes and the complete
Iberia. I will wager she also has Messiaen's Vingt Regards in her back
pocket as well.
Happy listening.
TD
tomdeacon
Peter Lemken wrote:
> Tony - sidoze <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > With all due respect to Mr. Nicholas, I hope this does not turn into a
> > pissing-in-the-wind farce a la Penguin Guide, with one man doing all
> > the reviews and soiling the very thing he's trying to promote.
>
> Is there a compilation of who wrote the liner notes to all of Mrs. Hatto's
> recordings?
Rest easy.
They do NOT include Mr. Jeremy Nicholas.
Now, instead of carping on the sidelines, why not investigate the
recordings of JH on your own?
TD
Tony - sidoze
tomdeacon wrote:
> THAT is the point which relates to "greatness".
In your estimation. I have a very different, more specialised outlook;
and while I admire such versatility and adaptability, I do not think
that it correlates to greatness any more than a practice which is more
focused and singular.
> I have rarely encountered a pianist with such wide and deep sympathy for the music
> she performs.
Very well. But as implied above, doing all these things on a
competent-to-excellent level does not impress me more than a person who
truly excels at a self-imposed number of things. Joyce Hatto has
demonstrated that she has an incredible talent for playing much and a
great endurance for sitting in the studio. Perhaps an acquaintance of
hers can explain why she does not care to regale us in the concert
hall, say, at the Wigmore again.
> I will wager she also has Messiaen's Vingt Regards in her back pocket as well.
Hopefully. But she has no chance of approaching Momo Kodama, whose SACD
recording is the new reference for this piece.
> Happy listening.
I look forward to hearing all of her Chopin soon.
alanwa...@aol.com
> In some cases the inlay notes are by the pianist - the 75th anniversary
> of Chopin Etudes, at least one of the Lizst Verdi transcription discs
> and the Mozart sonatas certainly are.
>
> Notes for the Chopin concerti are by Burnett James. Several other
> discs have notes by William Hedley including the Prokofiev Sonatas.
>
> In the Chopin Preludes and Brahms PC 2 the inlay notes are uncredited
> although extensive in both cases.
>
>
> That is as far as I have been able to check at the moment.
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
Further to the above, the staff of Concert Artist have followed this
debate with what was described as "increasing incredulity".
The situation, they state, is as follows:
"1. The greater number of inlay notes for our recordings are written
"in house".
2. Jeremy Nicholas has not written any liner notes for any recording
of Concert Artist. He met and interviewed JH originally at the request
of the Editor of International Piano Quarterly.
3. No critic writes liner notes for Concert Artist and then reviews the
record. That is a house rule and agreed with editors of organisations
responsible for any publications that review Concert Artist product."
On a more positive note, and possibly of interest to some, several JH
"sampler" CDs are in preparation and should be available soon. An email
and postal address to sa...@concertartistrecordings.com requesting
information and a copy will be dealt with. Additional queries can be
addressed to Mr Colin Bradbury. In America they will be available
through IPO RECORDINGS New York. There will also be a sampler CD of
Sergio Fiorentino, I am pleased to say.
A JH recording of Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jesus and
Hindemith: Ludus Tonalis are scheduled to be issued at the end of next
month. The pianist studied composition with Hindemith and studied the
Ludus Tonalis with the composer, performing the work in his presence.
Hindemith spoke highly of that performance and admitted that he had
been moved to tears by it.
Steve Molino
news:1138373822.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> A JH recording of Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jesus and
> Hindemith: Ludus Tonalis are scheduled to be issued at the end of next
> month. The pianist studied composition with Hindemith and studied the
> Ludus Tonalis with the composer, performing the work in his presence.
>
> Hindemith spoke highly of that performance and admitted that he had
> been moved to tears by it.
>
I always have a similar reaction to that piece, except that I attribute the
tears to boredom.
Tony - sidoze
alanwa...@aol.com wrote:
> Further to the above, the staff of Concert Artist have followed this
> debate with what was described as "increasing incredulity".
>
> "sampler" CDs are in preparation and should be available soon. An email
> and postal address to sa...@concertartistrecordings.com requesting
> information and a copy will be dealt with. Additional queries can be
> addressed to Mr Colin Bradbury. In America they will be available
> through IPO RECORDINGS New York. There will also be a sampler CD of
> Sergio Fiorentino, I am pleased to say.
>
Since they are reading this, perhaps they'd like to take note that a
"sampler" of mp3s would be much more cost effective as well as more
popular I imagine. They'd almost certainly reach out to more people
this way than through sampler CDs.
When will her Chopin Nocturnes be ready?
Miguel Montfort
[...]
> A JH recording of Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jesus
> and Hindemith: Ludus Tonalis are scheduled to be issued at
> the end of next month. The pianist studied composition with
> Hindemith and studied the Ludus Tonalis with the composer,
> performing the work in his presence.
>
> Hindemith spoke highly of that performance and admitted that
> he had been moved to tears by it.
I had the chance to listen (and re-listen) to an advance
copy of Joyce Hatto’s recording of the »Ludus tonalis« -
absolutely overwhelming! It’s easily the finest recording
of that piece I know including (in alphabetical order)
Janssen, Mauser, McCabe, Mustonen, Richter & Roberts (alas,
no Vedernikov).
Miguel Montfort
Tony - sidoze
How's the Messiaen?
Miguel Montfort
> How's the Messiaen?
Don’t have an advanced copy of this one ... ;-)
Miguel Montfort
SG
Ernst Lumpe:
> It seems there is NO WAY for some here to avoid any kind insinuation re
> Hatto since that initial praise from Tom and the horrendously tasteless
> things that followed.
It is rather unfortunate that it was a character like Tom Deacon who
not only praised Joyce Hatto but also employed his copyrighted
obnoxious ways of doing it, therefore raising an undeserved amount of
suspicion around a genuine pianist and artist (Ms. Hatto). If you
noticed at all, I had to almost stop writing about her playing (this
post excepted) because Ms. Hatto's playing became to many, through Tom
Deacon's "generous" efforts, the subject of jokes and derision.
I have said my piece in the past, I find her one of the few truly
mercurial, satisfactory, genuine, expressive living pianists. Even that
"old mediocre" recording of Mendelssohn-Rachmaninoff Scherzo I found
neither (particularly) old nor mediocre, on the contrary, one of the
best recordings of the piece and so did many other music lovers. I
don't believe posting more of Hatto for free on the web would help any,
so please don't.
People who abhor Deacon as much as to robotically abhor anything he may
praise, and/or who made their mind about Hatto before even listening to
her recordings, will listen to anything with the same opaque ears,
trying to find fault with anything Ms. Hatto's played in the ridiculous
pseudo-critical way they did with Mendelssohn-Rachmaninoff. People who
like Ms. Hatto's playing will continue to buy her CD's, as budget(s)
allow(s), and will be all the richer for that. End of story.
regards,
SG
SG
Phil Caron wrote:
> I listened to Hatto's recording of Liszt's 2nd Annee (Italy) yesterday.
> Excellent playing. She lingered in some lyrical passages overlong for my
> taste, but most of Hatto's interpretive choices seemed middle of the road,
> which projected as expertly as she does was mostly very effective. I say
> mostly, because some of these pieces could use a little something extra,
> though others may feel differently about that.
>
> Hatto can do several different things at once - dynamics, articulations,
> etc, so her sound is not one dimensional. Other than that, she didn't sound
> particularly colorful in her use of the instrument. I didn't like the
> clangy midrange sound of the piano and hope her other recordings are not
> that way. Overall, though, my attention was held from start to finish (a
> blistering Tarentella).
About this "excellent" v. "great" thing: perhaps if Hatto is to be
compared with Rachmaninoff, Moiseiwitsch or Friedman in the staples of
their repertoire, she's "merely excellent". Compared to what I hear
nowadays - and yes, that includes the highly-extolled, occasionally
impressive Russian tractors - she is "great", to my ears. If one is to
throw into the equation the combination of huge, extremely varied
repertoire with performances which range from merely excellent to
spellbinding, she is "great" even compared to the old ones. After all,
polished pianism is to be appreciated, but within reason. It is more
impressive to me to hear 99.95% accurate and musically highly
satisfactory recordings of an enormous amount of repertoire than to
hear a pianist who slaved five years over three bloody encores so he
could offer "true perfection" in them. My reaction to the latter is
more often than not "so what".
regards,
SG
gerrie...@cox.net
SG wrote:
>
> About this "excellent" v. "great" thing: perhaps if Hatto is to be
> compared with Rachmaninoff, Moiseiwitsch or Friedman in the staples of
> their repertoire, she's "merely excellent". Compared to what I hear
> nowadays - and yes, that includes the highly-extolled, occasionally
> impressive Russian tractors - she is "great", to my ears. If one is to
> throw into the equation the combination of huge, extremely varied
> repertoire with performances which range from merely excellent to
> spellbinding, she is "great" even compared to the old ones. After all,
> polished pianism is to be appreciated, but within reason. It is more
> impressive to me to hear 99.95% accurate and musically highly
> satisfactory recordings of an enormous amount of repertoire than to
> hear a pianist who slaved five years over three bloody encores so he
> could offer "true perfection" in them. My reaction to the latter is
> more often than not "so what".
>
> regards,
> SG
Ahh Samir, spoken so well, and so truly!
Why didn't *I* think to say those things publically (many of which I
have said in private)? :-)
Gerrie
SG
Steve Molino wrote:
> > Hindemith spoke highly of that performance and admitted that he had
> > been moved to tears by it.
> >
>
> I always have a similar reaction to that piece, except that I attribute the
> tears to boredom.
Ludus Tonalis is an incredibly pretentious piece of dried-up ham. Mind
you, I believe Hindemith wrote much better music. (He wrote A LOT, so
he had to, statistically speaking.) Do you know his Trombone Sonata,
for instance?
regards,
SG
abac...@att.net
his bassoon sonata.
AB
Steve Molino
news:1138387305.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ludus Tonalis is an incredibly pretentious piece of dried-up ham. Mind
> you, I believe Hindemith wrote much better music. (He wrote A LOT, so
> he had to, statistically speaking.) Do you know his Trombone Sonata,
> for instance?
>
I don't know that work, but I like a number of works by Hindemith (I am
particularly fond of his Kammermusik). My comment was aimed specifically at
that particular work.
SG
> > Ludus Tonalis is an incredibly pretentious piece of dried-up ham. Mind
> > you, I believe Hindemith wrote much better music. (He wrote A LOT, so
> > he had to, statistically speaking.) Do you know his Trombone Sonata,
> > for instance?
> also try his woodwind quintet which is a marvelous work......... also
> his bassoon sonata.
True. He wrote damn good for all those instruments, almost as if he
played them himself. And some of the viola stuff, of course. It is
unfair, though, that the piano parts of some of these works are harder
than the "solo" parts. Try and read the trombone thingy sometime.
Awfully fun to play, but more of a workout than Tchaikovsky 1st + 2nd
concerti.
regards,
SG
alanwa...@aol.com
>
> True. He wrote damn good for all those instruments, almost as if he
> played them himself. And some of the viola stuff, of course. It is
> unfair, though, that the piano parts of some of these works are harder
> than the "solo" parts. Try and read the trombone thingy sometime.
> Awfully fun to play, but more of a workout than Tchaikovsky 1st + 2nd
> concerti.
>
> regards,
> SG
In Symphonic Metamorphosis on themes of Weber, Mr Hindemith wrote one
of the most challenging timpani parts anyone will encounter and in
difficulty of execution one which ranks alongside both Elektra and
Salome by Richard Strauss.
Steve Emerson
"SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Hindemith's] Ludus Tonalis is an incredibly pretentious piece of
> dried-up ham. Mind you, I believe Hindemith wrote much better music.
> (He wrote A LOT, so he had to, statistically speaking.) Do you know
> his Trombone Sonata, for instance?
Samir, the trombone sonata struck me as pretty commonplace writing for
trombone and among the weaker of the brass sonatas. He does little to
exploit the infinite noise-making abilities of the instrument--it feels
like something that could be done on a French horn, pitch being the only
difference.
Have you heard a good recording? That might make a difference.
By far the most interesting of these, for me, was the one for tuba,
second the one for alto horn.
BTW how is the Samuel Rhodes recording of the viola sonatas?
SE.
gerrie...@cox.net
Miguel Montfort wrote:
,
> I had the chance to listen (and re-listen) to an advance
> copy of Joyce Hatto's recording of the »Ludus tonalis« -
> absolutely overwhelming! It's easily the finest recording
> of that piece I know including (in alphabetical order)
> Janssen, Mauser, McCabe, Mustonen, Richter & Roberts (alas,
> no Vedernikov).
>
> Miguel Montfort
Coming from "MM's" exceptional taste and probing discernment (that I
have observed over the years), this is indeed high and deserved praise.
Gerrie C
tomdeacon
You probably didn't say them because you have heard it so often. Many
of us have been railing about the jackboots school of pianism for
years, only to be derided by people like you, OFM, because of the
choice of words. They were, and are, perfectly appropriate. "Tractors"
is another word, less immediately and less viscerally pungent, I would
suggest. The message is the same.
That said, one does not need to go whole hog and adopt the velvet glove
school of pianism as a remedy to the jackboots school.
Moderation. Everything in moderation.
Even personal vilification, I would say to Mr. Golescu, who seemingly
cannot utter a word without somehow impugning my person. He is becoming
something of a "one-trick-pony". When will he grow up, one wonders?
TD
Steve Molino
>
> I have said my piece in the past, I find her one of the few truly
> mercurial, satisfactory, genuine, expressive living pianists. Even that
> "old mediocre" recording of Mendelssohn-Rachmaninoff Scherzo I found
> neither (particularly) old nor mediocre, on the contrary, one of the
> best recordings of the piece and so did many other music lovers. I
> don't believe posting more of Hatto for free on the web would help any,
> so please don't.
>
I bought the Prokofiev War Sonatas disc a few weeks ago and have been
playing it quite a bit. I think it is excellent, truly excellent, and am
thinking of springing for the rest of the Prokofiev discs soon.
SG
Steve Emerson wrote:
> Samir, the trombone sonata struck me as pretty commonplace writing for
> trombone and among the weaker of the brass sonatas. He does little to
> exploit the infinite noise-making abilities of the instrument--it feels
> like something that could be done on a French horn, pitch being the only
> difference.
>
> Have you heard a good recording? That might make a difference.
True. I usually don't go for the "I hear it in my head better" etc.
gambit (for example, Pletnev plays Rach Third *better* than I hear it
in my head) but this is one of those cases. It *sounds* bland in the
recordings I heard but it ain't the piece.
Imagine that instead of jumping lightly and happily in the main theme
(to begin somewhere), the trombone-player would milk for everything
they've got:
the metrical tension - it's not a waltz, for heavens' sake, even if you
have a lot of half-note--quarter-note--half-note--quarter-note motifs -
always one half-note is on the beat while the other is a syncopation
(the performer is responsible to project that)
the scary "opening into abyss" of melodic gestures -
*Db*
Bb
G
F
C C C
- ideally with a huge, brutal accent on the "ugly" D Flat.
And this is only for the first two bars.... the slow movement, when
well-played, should not sound "neo-classical", whatever that is, or as
in indifferent, but like a desolate paysage of a post-apocalyptic
bitterness... etc. etc.
Yes, it is the interpretation that can make a huge difference as you
say . . .
regards,
SG
SG
tomdeacon wrote:
> Even personal vilification, I would say to Mr. Golescu, who seemingly
> cannot utter a word without somehow impugning my person.
I plead innocent to these senseless charges. Is it my fault Tom Deacon
has become something of a world celebrity, through his undisputed, er,
singularity? I am being told that even when Chinese kids are being
taught nowadays compounded concepts, such as "Tiananmen Square",
teachers are drawing on the blackboard one piece of Tiananmen and one
Tom Deacon, in way of visual explanation.
regards,
SG
tomdeacon
I rest my case.
He's still a child.
TD
alanwa...@aol.com
Jeremy Nicholas has also written a full page feature which is published
in the new edition of The Gramophone which is out now.
He says that he has heard only 30 of her recordings so far but writes:
"From this evidence, I have no hesitation in saying that Joyce Hatto is
one of the greatest pianists I have ever heard."
He reviews ten CDs including Brahms, Chopin, Prokofiev and Schubert and
mentions many of the others that he has heard.
abac...@att.net
nonsense IMO, is an example of why I terminated my subscription to the
Gramophone 5 years ago....
AB
tomdeacon
abac...@att.net wrote:
> Reading that quote below, ( "one of the greatest, etc"), absolute
> nonsense IMO, is an example of why I terminated my subscription to the
> Gramophone 5 years ago....
Reading the quote above, absolute nonsense IMO, is an example of why I
terminated my subscription to Arri Bachrach 5 years ago...
TD
Handel8
Is that in the February or March issue ? I don't see it my copy of the
Feb issue, which I got only within the last 3 or 4 days in the mail.
There is the article by Nicholas on the Balakirev Islamey that begins
on page 28 in my copy that I mentioned at the begining of this thread.
Would you have gotten the March issue this soon in any case? My copy
is the North American version (of the February issue) so maybe I am
missing something here. Please advise.
Alan Prichard
alanwa...@aol.com
> Is that in the February or March issue ? I don't see it my copy of the
> Feb issue, which I got only within the last 3 or 4 days in the mail.
> There is the article by Nicholas on the Balakirev Islamey that begins
> on page 28 in my copy that I mentioned at the begining of this thread.
> Would you have gotten the March issue this soon in any case? My copy
> is the North American version (of the February issue) so maybe I am
> missing something here. Please advise.
>
> Alan Prichard
It is the March issue. It is just out. The article is on page 67 and
is headed Piano Dreams, a pianist studio-bound by illness is one of the
greatest Jeremy Nicholas has ever heard. There is a small picture of
JH and a list of the recordings he particularly liked.
Interestingly a sampler is mentioned and the contents are given as
Brahms, Bach-Lizst, Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Verdi-Lizst, Balakirev,
Debussy but the actual pieces are not listed. The timing is given as
77 minutes.
tomdeacon
We on this side of the Atlantic suffer - if you can call it that;
personally I view it as a reprieve - from the fact that the Gramophone
has about the worst distribution of any international magazine.
I receive The Spectator from the UK in my local Kingston, Ontario,
newstand on Sunday. It is published in the UK on Thursday or Friday.
I have just purchased the Gramophone with the Mozart cover at that same
newstand. December, I think. Or perhaps January. I have no idea what
month. EVERYTHING in it is out of date: the releases, the concert
programmes, the radio schedules. Everything. A great deal of the
discussion is still about Christmas!!!
They clearly couldn't run a peanut stand if their lives depended upon
it.
Hopeless.
TD
Tony - sidoze
Perhaps you can tell me what exactly is keeping her from playing in
front of the public. Is it the case that she can only play in short
bursts and must take frequent breaks? Given that she plays such
demanding repertoire but refuses to play in public, I would like to
know why she's studio-bound.
tomdeacon
Illness.
TD
Tony - sidoze
One more line of detail please, if you don't mind.
As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare. But that
might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
Steven de Mena
"Tony - sidoze" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138474151.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> tomdeacon wrote:
>> Tony - sidoze wrote:
>> > alanwa...@aol.com wrote:
>> > >a pianist studio-bound by illness
>> > > Alan M. Watkins
>> >
>> > Perhaps you can tell me what exactly is keeping her from playing in
>> > front of the public. Is it the case that she can only play in short
>> > bursts and must take frequent breaks? Given that she plays such
>> > demanding repertoire but refuses to play in public, I would like to
>> > know why she's studio-bound.
>>
>> Illness.
>>
>> TD
>
> One more line of detail please, if you don't mind.
Someone mentioned she has been fighting Ovarian cancer for 25 years.
Steve
SG
> As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare.
Come on, now, Tony, I understand some of Hatto's defenders piss you
off, but don't take it out on the pianist herself. Imagine one day Tom
Deacon would get to know, like and praise you. (I've already said Tom
Deacon's praise is The Kiss Of Death. Only in the last couple of years,
he campaigned for John Kerry, Paul Martin and Fatah, with what results
you know. ) Would it be fair for me then to insinuate things about you
just because Tom Deacon would suddenly declare you the nicest,
brightest, handsomest chap to walk the surface of Earth? By the way,
based on hearing rather than the computer capabilities I don't have, I
believe editing is being used in Hatto's recordings but in no way in
the "bar by bar" fashion - or anything beyond what all but very few
pianists do. Her recordings are definitely not tortured affairs
obtained from the glueing together of 150 takes.
> But that
> might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
All due respect, but it's a bit petty to compare an octogenarian cancer
survivor with another octogenarian who had a heart attack while playing
and to emit moral judgments on who's been holding the high moral
ground. Forget it. Please don't make an issue of ambition out of what
should be the pleasure of discovering a good (perhaps you won't find
her AS good as others do) pianist (or not). Kindly remember, Joyce
Hatto is not Tom Deacon's mother, so you can't pin *that* walking
tragedy on her.
regards,
SG
alanwa...@aol.com
I imagine the problem is that JH never knows what pain or energy levels
she may encounter on any particular day (as with all cancer patients, I
believe) which will clearly make accepting forward public engagements
completely impossible both from her point of view and that of anyone
wishing to put them on.
On the matter of recording, this is what the International Piano
Quarterly piece says:
She likes to record in single takes without editing or patching. "I
don't go to recording sessions to practice," she says dismissively.
"I've done all my preparation at home. I go to the studio to record.
Simple as that. And I love it."
I notice in the Prokofiev series that Sonatas 2,3 and 4 were all
recorded on the same day.
Steve Molino
news:1138478654....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I notice in the Prokofiev series that Sonatas 2,3 and 4 were all
> recorded on the same day.
But in the sonatas 6-8, the dates given for all three works are 1998 and
2004. Isn't a six year gap for recording a single work a bit odd?
tomdeacon
Tony - sidoze wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> > Tony - sidoze wrote:
> > > alanwa...@aol.com wrote:
> > > >a pianist studio-bound by illness
> > > > Alan M. Watkins
> > >
> > > Perhaps you can tell me what exactly is keeping her from playing in
> > > front of the public. Is it the case that she can only play in short
> > > bursts and must take frequent breaks? Given that she plays such
> > > demanding repertoire but refuses to play in public, I would like to
> > > know why she's studio-bound.
> >
> > Illness.
> >
> > TD
>
> One more line of detail please, if you don't mind.
No luck.
You find out by yourself.
> As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare. But that
> might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
Yes.
And a very dull one to boot!
TD
alanwa...@aol.com
As an aside I have just listened to the first five volumes of The
Complete Works for Piano (Mozart). As a musician, I would be prepared
to put money on the fact that there is very little "editing or
patching" going on here.
The line is so remarkably consistent throughout each movement of each
Sonata that I think it most unlikely.
To any who already like the music making of JH I really do commend
these recordings as a life enhancing experience.
I keep pressing the repeat button for No 16 in C Major, K545, because I
just want to keep hearing how much she varies her touch in the three
movements of this tiny 10 minute piece.
I wore out one of my (two) Fiorentino Brahms Handel Variations LPs for
the same reason: just wanting to listen to the way the player played
the staccato notes which replicate the sound of the harpsichord.
I believe it was Schnabel who said of some Mozart sonatas: "Easy for a
child. Very hard for an adult."
It doesn't sound very hard for the "adult" on these recordings but of
course that is the art within the art, as it were, as with all
instruments. And beautifully recorded.
MrT
volumes, but they are very good indeed. They do not displace other
favorites, but they are definitely very good work and keepers.
Regards,
MrT
alanwa...@aol.com
With respect to everyone Ronnie Smith should be given credit for his
Alkan performances I think.
I have not heard the Beethoven performance mentioned so cannot say but
I have heard it said that his powers diminished as he aged (which
happens in some cases) in which case he may simply have gone on too
long.
I am reminded of a comment by my Prague professor Petr Sprunk: "The
problem with this business is that it is like alcohol or drugs. You
know it isn't doing you any good but you just can't give it up. In our
case it may be worse. Not playing is as bad as playing."
andrewg...@gmail.com
> As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare. But that
> might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
I was also at this concert, and for a near-blind 80 year old, it was in
interesting program! wanderer fantasy.....chopin op25 (1st half took
nearly an hour and 20 mins!). 2nd half op111 and various alkan pieces!
to be fair the first half was a mess technically (as you might expect)
and the wanderer took 30 mins, but the arietta of op111 was the most
sublime experience i have ever experienced in the concert hall (very
similar to ernst levy on marston).
as a result i bought the beethoven disc on apr but was disappointed.
as for hatto, i have just ordered the two 2 for 1 offers from musicweb.
4 discs for £25 perfectly ok.
must mention the rachmaninov concerto disc. the c-minor is an
expressive, though fairly middle-of-the -road account. the d-minor
however is an entirely different kettle of fish. right up there with
the best i would say. hard to believe its a woman playing
though.....feels like lazar berman powering away at times!
my favourite disc so far though is definitely the brahms recital which
has the paginini variations. stunning throughout.
AG
alanwa...@aol.com
The Brahms with the Paganini Variations was also chosen by Mr Nicholas
in The Gramophone review.
tomdeacon
SG wrote:
> > As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> > totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare.
>
> Come on, now, Tony, I understand some of Hatto's defenders piss you
> off, but don't take it out on the pianist herself. Imagine one day Tom
> Deacon would get to know, like and praise you. (I've already said Tom
> Deacon's praise is The Kiss Of Death. Only in the last couple of years,
> he campaigned for John Kerry, Paul Martin and Fatah, with what results
> you know. )
Wrong.
I campaigned for Hamas.
And they won.
Don't you just LOOOOOOOVE democracy?
> By the way, based on hearing rather than the computer capabilities I don't have,
> I believe editing is being used in Hatto's recordings but in no way in
> the "bar by bar" fashion - or anything beyond what all but very few
> pianists do. Her recordings are definitely not tortured affairs
> obtained from the glueing together of 150 takes.
>
> > But that
> > might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> > the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> > years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> > minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
>
> All due respect, but it's a bit petty to compare an octogenarian cancer
> survivor with another octogenarian who had a heart attack while playing
> and to emit moral judgments on who's been holding the high moral
> ground. Forget it.
He won't, because he can't.
He's like you, Golescu. Once you have a bone in your mouth you simply
won't let go. It is the mark of utter stupidity
And bad breeding.
TD
tomdeacon
Agreed. And I actually agree with his interpretation of Alkan's music -
rather strict and classical - over the more freely romantic
interpretations of other pianists.
But elsewhere, well, just not top drawer. And NO Joyce Hatto.
TD
SG
> Come on, now, Tony, I understand some of Hatto's defenders piss you
> off, but don't take it out on the pianist herself. Imagine one day Tom
> Deacon would get to know, like and praise you. (I've already said Tom
> Deacon's praise is The Kiss Of Death. Only in the last couple of years,
> he campaigned for John Kerry, Paul Martin and Fatah, with what results
> you know. )
Forgot to mention Ms. Hatto among the almost-victims of Tom Deacon's
lethal embrace. It's hard to imagine anybody attempting to harm her
reputation more than he did in the last couple of years. Luckily she's
too good a musician to actually succumb under Deacon's suffocating
appreciation - otherwise she could sue him for slander, Deacon's praise
qualifies as such more than his insults.
regards,
SG
abac...@att.net
Death" on Lise de la Salle who deserves better than admiration from
this foolish Canadian. So far she seemed to has survived his best
efforts.
AB
Frank Berger
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1138485406.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You complain about Samir impugning your character, yet in the same post you
aver support for Hamas, which is either true or Jew-baiting, and you blame
Samir's bahavior on his "breeding."
You're going to have to live with your reputation.
tomdeacon
abac...@att.net wrote:
> lets hope Deacon the Beacon does not succeed in implanting the "Kiss of
> Death" on Lise de la Salle who deserves better than admiration from
> this foolish Canadian. So far she seemed to has survived his best
> efforts.
My enthusiasm would hardly been as damaging as a favourable review from
someone who thinks that Volodos has a single brain in his head - we
know he has brains in his fingers, of course, but that doesn't really
help him much.
But as a matter of fact, Bachrach, I have already encouraged several of
my musical associates to purchase Ms. De La Salle's two CDs. So far
there is thumbs up on the Rachmaninoff and Ravel, less enthusiasm about
the Bach, and keen interest in the Liszt.
Can't win'em all, of course. And in fact I agree with the overall
assessment.
But we have had less than enthusiastic responses from those who have
actually heard her in person, which is the true test.
TD
tomdeacon
Well, they were elected "democratically", Frank, which is more than you
can say for the President of the USA, who was beaten by Al Gore in that
election. An old story hardly worthy of repetition, except insofar as
it indicates that democracy flowers with greater truth in Palestine
than in America.
> You're going to have to live with your reputation.
And so, I would suggest, are you.
But it is more your conscience that I worry about, Frank. How can you
live with your paranoia and your overweening anti-semitism? Sitting
there in the quiet luxury of Texas fretting about little ol Hamas and
the elections in Palestine. The Jews and the Arabs are brothers, Frank.
Cut from the same cloth. Let them sort out their little tiffs.
Meanwhile just sit back and pour yourself another beer. Click on the
tele and watch "Babes in Toyland" or some meaty flic or other. And the
Superbowl will be on soon and you can just veg out.
TD
Frank Berger
The point is not whether they were elected. (When I suggested Hamas'
widespread support not too long ago, Pace ridiculed the idea.)
The point is your support for Hamas. We shall see what kind of government
Hamas provides - whether they continue to allow free elections, now that
they are in power; whether there are freedoms of press, speech; minority
rights protected. Or whether they establish an Iranian style threocracy.
It takes more than one election to make a democracy.
Yet, if world or Palestinian pressure "forces" true democracy, tomorrow's
Hamas will not be today's Hamas.
>
>
>> You're going to have to live with your reputation.
>
> And so, I would suggest, are you.
>
> But it is more your conscience that I worry about, Frank. How can you
> live with your paranoia and your overweening anti-semitism? Sitting
> there in the quiet luxury of Texas fretting about little ol Hamas and
> the elections in Palestine.
As I indicated above, I am not fretting at all. As usual, you have no idea
what you're talking about. Regarding brotherhood, I would rather share a
beer and a convseration with a moderate Palestinian any day, than with you.
> The Jews and the Arabs are brothers, Frank.
> Cut from the same cloth. Let them sort out their little tiffs.
But in your neutrality, you support Hamas. Is your support token, or do you
send them money. The Feds might want to know.
Bob Harper
(snip)
> Well, they were elected "democratically", Frank, which is more than you
> can say for the President of the USA, who was beaten by Al Gore in that
> election.
An old story hardly worthy of repetition, except insofar as
> it indicates that democracy flowers with greater truth in Palestine
> than in America.
Bull. Given the corruption of Fatah and its utter failure to provide
public services, and given that Hamas was the only alternative, its
victory is not too surprising. What, I wonder, would have happened had
there been candidates who said, 'Look, we've got to get over this
nonsense of destroying Israel. Elect us and we'll make peace with them
and make it possible for you to prosper.' But we didn't have such
candidates, you say? Of course not; they'd have been murdered as soon as
they opened their mouths. Democracy?
Well, at least Hamas won the whole enchilada; I wonder if they'll be as
militant now that they have to collect the garbage. I hope a dose of
*that* reality will bring them to their senses, but I'm not sanguine
about it.
Let's also hope the donor countries stand fast in denying funds to Hamas
as long as they swear to destroy Israel. I can't inagine the
'Palestinian street' being very enthusiastic about a government that
can't deliver.
>
>
>> You're going to have to live with your reputation.
>
> And so, I would suggest, are you.
>
> But it is more your conscience that I worry about, Frank. How can you
> live with your paranoia and your overweening anti-semitism?
Good Lord, that old garbage again!? Your definition of anti-semitism is
unique, and uniquely erroneous in the real world. We weren't buying
before, and we aren't buying now.
Bob Harper
Peter Lemken
> must mention the rachmaninov concerto disc. the c-minor is an
> expressive, though fairly middle-of-the -road account. the d-minor
> however is an entirely different kettle of fish. right up there with
> the best i would say. hard to believe its a woman playing
> though.....feels like lazar berman powering away at times!
How is the orchestra?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.
(Harry Rowohlt)
andrewg...@gmail.com
> > expressive, though fairly middle-of-the -road account. the d-minor
> > however is an entirely different kettle of fish. right up there with
> > the best i would say. hard to believe its a woman playing
> > though.....feels like lazar berman powering away at times!
>
> How is the orchestra?
>
> Peter Lemken
> Berlin
I felt Peter that the orchestral performance was good, although i
should add that i am not musically trained to know whether it was good
or not, and i personally spend most time concentrating on the soloist.
That said, the recording sound was excellent, and the piano was well
positioned.
In addition i have no idea who this orchestra is that appears for JH's
concerto performances (national philharmonic-symphony orchestra) or
their conductor either (rene kohler). i wouldnt be surprised if it was
a random combination of good old-pros who have connections with the
label, and perhaps up-and-coming talent from the music colleges. who
knows!
AG
alanwa...@aol.com
I believe there will be a little bit about Mr Kohler in the forthcoming
article by Ates Orga mentioned by Len of Music Web.
I would imagine that, in most cases, the orchestra were indeed the
"good old-pros" quite possibly recruited through the famed fixer and
violinist of the time, one Mr Sax, also to be found fixing for and
playing on All You Need Is Love by some outfit called The Beatles.
Tony - sidoze
SG wrote:
> > As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> > totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare.
>
> Come on, now, Tony, I understand some of Hatto's defenders piss you
> off, but don't take it out on the pianist herself.
I don't mean to, or to sound mean. I was hoping for a clear, concise
answer but will give up on it now.
> Would it be fair for me then to insinuate things about you
> just because Tom Deacon would suddenly declare you the nicest,
> brightest, handsomest chap to walk the surface of Earth?
I don't think Tom Deacon is capable of praising a person who is not an
artist of some sort -- especially an artist he's become acquainted
with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he views everyone on here as
an enemy, or perhaps opponent.
>Her recordings are definitely not tortured affairs obtained from the glueing together of 150 >takes.
Reassuring. I will take the leap of faith shortly, and pack a parachute
in case of a fall.
> > But that
> > might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> > the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> > years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> > minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
>
> All due respect, but it's a bit petty to compare an octogenarian cancer
> survivor with another octogenarian who had a heart attack while playing
> and to emit moral judgments on who's been holding the high moral
> ground. Forget it. Please don't make an issue of ambition out of what
> should be the pleasure of discovering a good (perhaps you won't find
> her AS good as others do) pianist (or not).
> regards,
> SG
I don't see any moral judgments there. Hatto not playing live really is
the icing on the cake in terms of how elusive this whole venture is.
Live playing is the very backbone of music-making and it's from that
that I usually form opinions on artists (even if the live playing is on
disc). Not always possible, obviously, and in this case it's
particularly unfortunate considering what she's recorded.
Tony - sidoze
tomdeacon wrote:
> > As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> > totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare. But that
> > might be the magic of editing, who knows. I recall my friend's teacher,
> > the late Ronald Smith, giving his 80th birthday recital at the QEH some
> > years ago. Such intensity and conviction, he even suffered through a
> > minor heart attack that night. Now *he* was a pianist.
>
> Yes.
>
> And a very dull one to boot!
>
> TD
Not live.
Peter Lemken
> About this "excellent" v. "great" thing: perhaps if Hatto is to be
> compared with Rachmaninoff, Moiseiwitsch or Friedman in the staples of
> their repertoire, she's "merely excellent". Compared to what I hear
> nowadays - and yes, that includes the highly-extolled, occasionally
> impressive Russian tractors - she is "great", to my ears. If one is to
> throw into the equation the combination of huge, extremely varied
> repertoire with performances which range from merely excellent to
> spellbinding, she is "great" even compared to the old ones. After all,
> polished pianism is to be appreciated, but within reason. It is more
> impressive to me to hear 99.95% accurate and musically highly
> satisfactory recordings of an enormous amount of repertoire than to
> hear a pianist who slaved five years over three bloody encores so he
> could offer "true perfection" in them.
That is so true, Samir.
To speak of this achievement as simply "great" is an understatement of the
highest order. To fill 120 CDs with practically all the major works of the
piano literature, all within 10 years, all in perfection, is an incredible,
superhuman and totally and utterly unbelievable achievement.
Richter's repertoire might have been huge, after all he himself spoke of 80
recitals with different pieces that he could have performed at one point in
his career, but in comparison to Mrs. Hatto's repertoire Richter's is simply
pale and so is every other pianist's including Rachmaninoff, Horowitz,
Gilels, Rubinstein or Michelangeli.
No other living pianist on this has can currently match Mrs. Hatto's awesome
output in sheer volume, and probably no one in the past could have done so.
Add to that the fact that her playing (from the few recordings I have heard)
is no less than competent and given the sheer enthusiasm on this newsgroup,
there is not a trace of disbelief on my side that every other single CD,
whether it be the Godowsky Etudes, the Debussy Etudes or the upcoming
Messiaen regards are or will be anything less than superb and technically
masterful.
Add to that the fact that Mrs. Hatto hasn't performed in public for more
than 30 years, in fact, hasn't even recorded *anything* during the twenty
years between her last public performance and her first CD on Concert
Artist, and you have me stunned beyond belief. On top of this, Mrs. Hatto
has been ill with ovarian cancer for more than thirty years, an illness that
in itself is a curse and must be a pain to deal with.
How incredible and miraculous it is to see that Mrs. Hatto has overcome
these obstacles and continues to provide the musical world with such amazing
output at a staggering rate and a level of perfection that few living, young
and healthy pianists can only dream of achieving and yet will never achieve.
Where is Hollywood when you need it?
Peter Lemken
> I believe there will be a little bit about Mr Kohler in the forthcoming
> article by Ates Orga mentioned by Len of Music Web.
I am so glad to hear that, Alan.
I am sure that many people have already wondered, who this elusive and yet
prolific conductor is. He must be a very special person to have such an
intimate working relationshisp with this incredible pianist and to avoid any
kind of publicity or public performance himself. I imagine he is a very deep
thinker and someone who despises the kind of showmanship so dreadfully
projected by the jet set maestros these days and I would not be surprised if
he prefers studying scores in his recluse and only entering a recording
studio when it really offers him the kind of initimate atmosphere that he
wishes to have for his work.
> I would imagine that, in most cases, the orchestra were indeed the
> "good old-pros" quite possibly recruited through the famed fixer and
> violinist of the time, one Mr Sax, also to be found fixing for and
> playing on All You Need Is Love by some outfit called The Beatles.
Never underestimate the quality of "impromptu" orchestras, they can actually
be pretty good without having a big, recognizable name. Over the last few
decades "Music Minus One" has always managed to get studio orchestras together
and to produce recordings of amazing quality and there has never been any
quaestion as to the high artistic standards of these studio groups.
tomdeacon
Tony - sidoze wrote:
> SG wrote:
> > > As it is, it is hard to believe someone can record such music but is
> > > totally unwilling to perform in public, even in simpler fare.
> >
> > Come on, now, Tony, I understand some of Hatto's defenders piss you
> > off, but don't take it out on the pianist herself.
>
> I don't mean to, or to sound mean. I was hoping for a clear, concise
> answer but will give up on it now.
You requested a clear concise answer about the medical condition of
someone whose artistry you scorn in a public forum.
Are you on drugs?
>
> > Would it be fair for me then to insinuate things about you
> > just because Tom Deacon would suddenly declare you the nicest,
> > brightest, handsomest chap to walk the surface of Earth?
>
> I don't think Tom Deacon is capable of praising a person who is not an
> artist of some sort -- especially an artist he's become acquainted
> with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he views everyone on here as
> an enemy, or perhaps opponent.
Most posters here I view as cheap, deceitful, vindictive, malicious,
back-biting, musically ignorant and extremely nasty individuals. Some
continue to wish death upon me. Others impugn the legitimacy of my
opinions. Still others the legitimacy of my work. In all cases I remain
indifferent to their opinions. There are exceptions - who shall remain
nameless, of course - but they are few and far between. Many posters
whom I admire have fled the nastiness which prevails here.
Personally, Sidoze, I don't give a fig whether or not they are
"enemies" of mine or not. I never have given a dahm and am not about to
start now.
> >Her recordings are definitely not tortured affairs obtained from the glueing together of 150 >takes.
>
> Reassuring. I will take the leap of faith shortly, and pack a parachute in case of a fall.
Again the scepticism.
And this from a man who thinks Ronald Smith was a genius and all
Russian pianists can be accepted on faith!
You, Sir, are ridiculous.
> I don't see any moral judgments there. Hatto not playing live really is
> the icing on the cake in terms of how elusive this whole venture is.
> Live playing is the very backbone of music-making and it's from that
> that I usually form opinions on artists (even if the live playing is on
> disc).
Is that what made you buy the recordings of Vedernikov?
> Not always possible, obviously, and in this case it's
> particularly unfortunate considering what she's recorded.
Indeed.
And are we not all the more fortunate that she is spending every last
ounce of her energy and artistic ability laying down her thoughts on
the enormous range of music she performs.
Would that Rachmaninoff had done the same. He, by the way, refused
steadfastly to be recorded in live concert.
TD
tomdeacon
Frank Berger wrote:
> The point is not whether they were elected. (When I suggested Hamas'
> widespread support not too long ago, Pace ridiculed the idea.)
Before they were elected you would have said precisely the opposite.
They represent nobody but themselves, as they have not been elected.
Now they are elected, you have little recourse but to state the
opposite.
Pathetic. And rather funny.
> The point is your support for Hamas. We shall see what kind of government
> Hamas provides - whether they continue to allow free elections, now that
> they are in power; whether there are freedoms of press, speech; minority
> rights protected. Or whether they establish an Iranian style threocracy.
> It takes more than one election to make a democracy.
As it does in the USA.
Who would have suspected that the rights of American citizens would
have been taken away by little Dubya, who didn't believe in
"nation-building".
More meaningless slogans!
> Yet, if world or Palestinian pressure "forces" true democracy, tomorrow's
> Hamas will not be today's Hamas.
And we can also hope that reality will force Frank Berger to change as
well and acknowledge the legitimacy of the claims of the Palestinians.
> >> You're going to have to live with your reputation.
> >
> > And so, I would suggest, are you.
> >
> > But it is more your conscience that I worry about, Frank. How can you
> > live with your paranoia and your overweening anti-semitism? Sitting
> > there in the quiet luxury of Texas fretting about little ol Hamas and
> > the elections in Palestine.
>
> As I indicated above, I am not fretting at all.
I stand corrected. What a relief! And here I thought you would be going
to the wailing wall at the earliest opportunity.
> As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Not much of an answer, Frank.
> Regarding brotherhood, I would rather share a beer and a convseration with a moderate Palestinian any day, than with you.
We share that view, Frank, but it is merely an opinion, not a point.
> > The Jews and the Arabs are brothers, Frank.
> > Cut from the same cloth. Let them sort out their little tiffs.
>
> But in your neutrality, you support Hamas.
I always feel better supporting the underdog, particularly when the
"overdog" is in possession of tanks, gunships, jet fighters and armed
to the teeth with nuclear weapons.
> Is your support token, or do you send them money.
What I do with my money is my business, Frank. What you do with yours
is yours.
Abramoff.
> The Feds might want to know.
Frankly Frank, I don't give a flying fuck what your "Feds" think about
anything. They have no rights in our democracy to the North.
TD
Tony - sidoze
tomdeacon wrote:
> You requested a clear concise answer about the medical condition of
> someone whose artistry you scorn in a public forum.
>
> Are you on drugs?
I have never scorned her or her recordings. I only question 1) the
ineptitude of her recording company, and 2) why she doesn't play in
public. Please don't twist things.
> And this from a man who thinks Ronald Smith was a genius
Again, I didn't say any such thing. He was an exceptionally insightful
man, pianist and musician whose live concerts and private conversations
gave a lot of pleasure and knowledge to people. Get a grip, Tom.
>and all Russian pianists can be accepted on faith!
A certain amount of their skill can be, sure. I bought the Vedernikov
to hear his musicianship, most of which did not pass IMO. If memory
serves you agree with me on this last point.
Bob Lombard
"Peter Lemken" <spam.f...@buerotiger.de> wrote in message
news:44407e...@individual.net...
> To speak of this achievement as simply "great" is an understatement of
> the
> highest order. To fill 120 CDs with practically all the major works of
> the
> piano literature, all within 10 years, all in perfection, is an
> incredible,
>superhuman and totally and utterly unbelievable achievement. [...}
>
> I am sure that many people have already wondered, who this elusive and
> yet
> prolific conductor is. [...]
> Peter Lemken
> Berlin
>
Peter, these messages would be more effective if a photo of your face,
or better yet an animated 'pop-up' accompanied them. I'm thinking a
moderately 'slack' jaw, and eyes open so wide that they appear lidless.
Even as it is, TD may be misled into thinking that you have undergone an
epiphany.
bl
tomdeacon
Peter Lemken wrote:
> To speak of this achievement as simply "great" is an understatement of the
> highest order. To fill 120 CDs with practically all the major works of the
> piano literature, all within 10 years, all in perfection, is an incredible,
> superhuman and totally and utterly unbelievable achievement.
Impressive, no doubt.
But I feel sure that if you had sat Walter Gieseking down at a keyboard
and recorded him for several years, an absolutely enormous recorded
repertoire would have resulted from the exercise. What is more, he
would probably have done it all from memory.
Today MAH seems to be in possession of a staggering repertoire. A quick
look at what he is performing in any given six month period is enough
to leave most pianists gasping for breath.
Daniel Barenboim also has an enormous active repertoire both as a
pianist and as a conductor.
There have been and always been omnivorous musicians. And there have
also always been the jewellers. The latter polish the same small
repertoire over and over again.
Different strokes for different folks.
TD
abac...@att.net
> Most posters here I view as cheap, deceitful, vindictive, malicious,
> back-biting, musically ignorant and extremely nasty individuals. Some
> continue to wish death upon me. Others impugn the legitimacy of my
> opinions. Still others the legitimacy of my work. In all cases I remain
> indifferent to their opinions. There are exceptions - who shall remain
> nameless, of course - but they are few and far between. Many posters
> whom I admire have fled the nastiness which prevails here.
how ironic that above TD describes his personality so accurately.....
the first sentence says it all..
TD has a streak of ugly paranoia in his genes which cannot be
eradicated....
I for one dont " impugn the liegitmacy of your opinions".......... they
are legitimate in that you espouse them. What I "impugn" is the
VALIDITY of your comments. they are worthless, musically speaking.
BTW- I suspect that many of the posters that fled, ran away from you
and your nastiness and pompous ignorance.
AB
tomdeacon
Peter Lemken wrote:
> On top of this, Mrs. Hatto has been ill with ovarian cancer for more than thirty years, an illness that
> in itself is a curse and must be a pain to deal with.
Thirty years?
Where did you obtain that information.
Moreover, how can you possibly speak from personal or any other
experience in discussing the effects of ovarian cancer?
TD
tomdeacon
Peter Lemken wrote:
> On top of this, Mrs. Hatto has been ill with ovarian cancer for more than thirty years, an illness that
> in itself is a curse and must be a pain to deal with.
Thirty years?
Where did you obtain that information?
tomdeacon
That, Arri, must be why I receive so many congratulatory messages from
posters who tend to "lurk" here for fear of being put down by the likes
of incompetent amateur bassoon players such as yourself. The messages
is uniformly "Keep up the fight!", which I am, of course,
temperamentally quite capable of doing, as I don't fear or shun paper
tigers like you.
TD
JohnGavin
tomdeacon wrote:
> Peter Lemken wrote:
>
> > To speak of this achievement as simply "great" is an understatement of the
> > highest order. To fill 120 CDs with practically all the major works of the
> > piano literature, all within 10 years, all in perfection, is an incredible,
> > superhuman and totally and utterly unbelievable achievement.
>
> Impressive, no doubt.
>
what amazes me is not only the size of their repertoire but the
variety. Joyce Hatto has done seemingly everything from Scarlatti to
Beethoven to Messiaen to Movie Scores. And I've heard beautiful Bach,
Mozart from Hamelin, as well as the amazing scope of repertoire that he
is more known for. The attribute of versality is something I find not
only highly admirable, but almost a necessity.
This is precisely why I don't care for pianists of the Brendel type -
who believe that you either specialize in Chopin or the Germans (or
something to that effect - see other thread). The problem to my ears
with specializers is that they inevitibly develop is subtle rigidity in
their approaches to playing - and this rigidity frequently manifests
itself in that pianists's sound, even in their technical approach -
hence the brittleness of the older Serkin, Brendel, (who stopped
venturing out of the Austrio-German repertoire), and Tureck (whose
playing I can't stand). I do admit that Schnabel was the exception to
this rule, but there are few others IMO.
abac...@att.net
>
> > To speak of this achievement as simply "great" is an understatement of the
> > highest order. To fill 120 CDs with practically all the major works of the
> > piano literature, all within 10 years, all in perfection, is an incredible,
> > superhuman and totally and utterly unbelievable achievement.
>
> Impressive, no doubt.
>
> But I feel sure that if you had sat Walter Gieseking down at a keyboard
> and recorded him for several years, an absolutely enormous recorded
> repertoire would have resulted from the exercise. What is more, he
> would probably have done it all from memory.
absolutely true..... and I have a suspicion a few other pianists are
capable of the same. However, the size of repetoire is in no way
related to the quality of the playing........
Lipatti........ in his short life ..... what do we know about his
Beethoven, Brahms, Profkofiev,Tchaikovksy, etc.....................
hardly anything at all and yet it seems obvious to most of us, (with a
few sick exceptions) that he was "titanic" pianist.
So far I have heard just 2 recordings by Hatto, and neither of them
display great playing.... just competent pianism Perhaps I should
purchase the other 118 CDs to round out my collection........ is it
possible tha amongst them there is a truly great performance...... I
wonder.
Schnabel for example had a limited repetoire, at least on
recordings........ does that diminish his stature as a pianist.
My present favorite, Volodos also has a limited musical range and just
recently started to play Beethoven.......... but what he DOES play is
for the most part outstanding. Are we to judge a musician by what he
DOES not play...... or by how much he DOES play?
AB
AB
abac...@att.net
> That, Arri, must be why I receive so many congratulatory messages from
> posters who tend to "lurk" here for fear of being put down by the likes
> of incompetent amateur bassoon players such as yourself.
yes I am an incompetent bassoon player and pianist who can play the
piano part to the Schumann Quintet very well.......... can you do
either??????
Who the hell congratulates you on anything:-))))))))
The messages
> is uniformly "Keep up the fight!", which I am, of course,
> temperamentally quite capable of doing, as I don't fear or shun paper
> tigers like you.
yes we all acknowledge your verbal abilities........ but then again
many nut jobs lurking in "special facilities" express themselves very
well
AB
> TD
tomdeacon
abac...@att.net wrote:
> So far I have heard just 2 recordings by Hatto, and neither of them
> display great playing.... just competent pianism Perhaps I should
> purchase the other 118 CDs to round out my collection........ is it
> possible tha amongst them there is a truly great performance...... I
> wonder.
Instead of "wondering", Arri, you should do some real research.
And instead of basing your judgment on a few MP3s, you should try to
acquire some of the REAL CDs. You will, I suggest, be amazed.
You can start with Prokofiev 8.
That will rot your socks and blow you away.
TD
Sam
wrote:
In seems to be a certainty that someday we will be able to get her
recordings for $3 a piece from EBay, Berkshire or in a Brilliant Box.
I wonder if I will still have the curiosity to stock up then.
Frank Berger
>
> Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> The point is not whether they were elected. (When I suggested Hamas'
>> widespread support not too long ago, Pace ridiculed the idea.)
>
> Before they were elected you would have said precisely the opposite.
> They represent nobody but themselves, as they have not been elected.
>
> Now they are elected, you have little recourse but to state the
> opposite.
>
> Pathetic. And rather funny.
What do you mean by the "opposite?" The opposite of what? I just said I
essentially predicted their win. It's in the record. You can look it up.
Can you read?
>
>> The point is your support for Hamas. We shall see what kind of
>> government
>> Hamas provides - whether they continue to allow free elections, now that
>> they are in power; whether there are freedoms of press, speech; minority
>> rights protected. Or whether they establish an Iranian style threocracy.
>> It takes more than one election to make a democracy.
>
> As it does in the USA.
>
> Who would have suspected that the rights of American citizens would
> have been taken away by little Dubya, who didn't believe in
> "nation-building".
>
Name one right Bush has taken away from me.
> More meaningless slogans!
>
>> Yet, if world or Palestinian pressure "forces" true democracy, tomorrow's
>> Hamas will not be today's Hamas.
>
> And we can also hope that reality will force Frank Berger to change as
> well and acknowledge the legitimacy of the claims of the Palestinians.
I have repeated stated that I support a two (democratic) state soloutiom.
Hamas does not. Nor do you, as indicated by your support of Hamas. Let's
be clear. Your support of Hamas indicates that the "legiimate claim" you
refer to is the destruction of Israel.
Frank Berger
Good one, Tom. And I thought you had no sense of humor.