OT: Hitler DNA Tests Show He Likely Had Jewish, African Roots
mark
Says
By Steven Fromm - Aug 24, 2010 7:39 AM PT
DNA shows Adolf Hitler likely to have had Jewish or African roots,
reports Daily Mail. Photographer: Keystone/Getty Images
Adolf Hitler may have been descended from both Jews and Africans, DNA
tests are indicating, the Daily Mail reported.
Journalist Jean-Paul Mulders and historian Marc Vermeeren used DNA to
trace 39 of the Nazi leader’s relatives earlier this year, the Daily
Mail said.
The relatives included an Austrian farmer, indentified only as a
cousin named "Norbert H," the Daily Mail reported.
A chromosome called "Haplogroup E1b1b," or Y-DNA, in the relatives’
saliva samples is rare in Germany, as well as Western Europe, the
newspaper said.
"It is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, in Algeria,
Libya and Tunisia as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews,"
Vermeeren said.
Mulders told Belgian magazine Knack that "[o]ne can from this
postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," the
Daily Mail reported.
Gerard
> Hitler DNA Tests Show He Likely Had Jewish, African Roots, Daily Mail
> Says
> By Steven Fromm - Aug 24, 2010 7:39 AM PT
>
> DNA shows Adolf Hitler likely to have had Jewish or African roots,
> reports Daily Mail.
Hasn't everybody?
BTW what is "Jewish DNA"? Is religion something DNA-related?
So why do you blame people with religion?
M forever
We are *all* descended from Africans! LOL
Of course, those tests *have* to prove that Hitler had Jewish
ancestors, otherwise they wouldn't be interesting enough, would they?
It is totally possible, even likely, that he did have some Jewish
ancestors given that those had been in Europe for over a thousand
years. That's not such a big sensation though because some Jewish
ancestors in the distant past did not make you a Jew even under the
bizarre Nuremberg Laws.
Bob Lombard
"M forever" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b01d9848-fb0f-4a12...@q1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
I feel a niggling recollection that the Berbers are of Germanic origin,
relics of one the Germanic invasions of the Iberian peninsula. Vandals?
bl
mark
Don Phillipson
news:31b60738-fcc4-4a5c...@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> DNA shows Adolf Hitler likely to have had Jewish or African roots,
> reports Daily Mail. Photographer: Keystone/Getty Images
> . . .
> Journalist Jean-Paul Mulders and historian Marc Vermeeren used DNA to
> trace 39 of the Nazi leader’s relatives earlier this year, the Daily
> Mail said.
. . .
> A chromosome called "Haplogroup E1b1b," or Y-DNA, in the relatives’
> saliva samples is rare in Germany, as well as Western Europe, the
> newspaper said.
. . .
> Mulders told Belgian magazine Knack that "[o]ne can from this
> postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," . . .
>
>
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-24/hitler-dna-tests-show-he-likely-had-jewish-african-roots-daily-mail-says.html
That's all very well -- but reliable test results from (alleged) living
kinsmen
of someone dead for 60 years tell us nothing about the DNA of the dead
person. We have documentation but no similar (laboratory) evidence that
he was in fact related to any of the living test subjects.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
M forever
wrote:
I think the berbers were there before the Germanic invasions, so while
there is most likely a Central European contribution to their gene
pool, it is not the main element, so to speak. If you look up that
haplogroup in Wikipedia, there is a map there which shows how it moved
into Europe from North Africa, so it is not something that people in
Central Europe are likely to have in common with people in North
Africa because of the CE contribution to the NA gene pool, but the
other way around. Of course, we can never be sure especially in
individual cases because individual groups people did move around a
lot more than whole people, even thousands of years ago, and even if
only in small numbers (merchants, mercenaries), so it is possible that
somebody's ancestry can include somebody from almost anywhere.
uncle dave
But where did he come down on the use of a 5-stringed instrument for
the sixth Bach cello suite?
Uncle Dave
mark
I think he limited his concerns about instrumental strings to the
creative use of piano wires...
M forever
> "mark" <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:31b60738-fcc4-4a5c...@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > DNA shows Adolf Hitler likely to have had Jewish or African roots,
> > reports Daily Mail. Photographer: Keystone/Getty Images
> > . . .
> > Journalist Jean-Paul Mulders and historian Marc Vermeeren used DNA to
> > trace 39 of the Nazi leader’s relatives earlier this year, the Daily
> > Mail said.
> . . .
> > A chromosome called "Haplogroup E1b1b," or Y-DNA, in the relatives’
> > saliva samples is rare in Germany, as well as Western Europe, the
> > newspaper said.
> . . .
> > Mulders told Belgian magazine Knack that "[o]ne can from this
> > postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," . . .
>
>
> That's all very well -- but reliable test results from (alleged) living
> kinsmen
> of someone dead for 60 years tell us nothing about the DNA of the dead
> person. We have documentation but no similar (laboratory) evidence that
> he was in fact related to any of the living test subjects.
? It should be very easy to verify if those people are indeed related
to Hitler. So I don't understand what you are saying.
Kip Williams
He became positively unstrung.
Kip W
Bob Harper
Hmm. Why does that seem to matter to you so much?
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
>> But where did he come down on the use of a 5-stringed instrument for
>> the sixth Bach cello suite?
>> Uncle Dave
>
> I think he limited his concerns about instrumental strings to the
> creative use of piano wires...
Ugh.
Bob Harper
M forever
It is obvious to everyone what you want to hint at here, you fucking
asshole. But I couldn't care less what Hitler's background was, and
whether he had some distant Jewish ancestors or not. It doesn't change
anything about what happened. It doesn't make his ideology any more or
less crazy than it was. Just like the fine details of your church's
history don't change anything about the general picture, about
centuries of murder and oppression.
And what really happened is what interests me and what matters to me -
history. History is very important and the exploration of the genome
and haplogroup mapping is a particularly fascinating subject. And one
which, of course, further proves that the creation story of your silly
religion is nothing but a childish fairy tale.
The real history of our species as it begins to unfold more and more
now is so much more fascinating anyway - and so much harder to grasp
than your fairy tale.
There is a great book which explains this new type of exploration of
prehistory in fairly easy terms: "Before the Dawn" by Nicholas Wade. I
would recommend that to you but it would be a waste of time for you to
read that as your mind is already made up that there is nothing more
to know than what the church wants us to know.
But I definitely recommend it to anyone who is interested in our pre-
and early history and in finding out more about the incredible journey
our ancestors took al over the planet from our common ancestral
homeland.
mark
Well, I thought Dave's question was a little flippant, considering who
he was talking about. I felt it was in order to remind everyone of the
kind of monster he was before rmcr broke out into strains of
"Springtime for Hitler."
uncle dave
Yes, indeed. I've joined in the bashing and OT flames from time to
time, (I used to care a lot about religion, can't help myself) though
I see how silly it is for me, now, but I like anarchy, and if it will
help mollify the group overall, I will try to steer even the wacky (in
a wacky way if needs be) toward music. I don't want to see people
implying Nazi sympathies and all the rest.
I did appreciate the "unstrung" response.
Peace,
Uncle Dave
M forever
Well done! I totally forgot about WWII and all that when Dave
mentioned the cello thing. Without you, all I knew about Hitler before
would have been overshadowed by Uncle Dave's joke.
gns
Well, admirable as that piloting towards music is, that lands us in
the stew of Wagner, Hitler, Bayreuth and the whole nine yards.
AND having just read in today's paper that casting aspersions on
individuals, products, and things , or expressing your opinion about
them on the internet can land you in court...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2012704841_netsuits24.html
...I just wanna say that Hitler was one heck of a guy, a hard worker,
personable and, well, hey, to say "Der Fuehrer" says it all, doesn't
it?
And that goes double for the brilliant, sapient crew here on
rec.music.classical. You're all the best, ya know you are!
David Oberman
<markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Adolf Hitler may have been descended from both Jews and Africans, DNA
>tests are indicating, the Daily Mail reported.
Now how can you guys hear about something like this--something of such
cosmically amusing situational irony--& not believe in God?!
Frank Berger
I was wondering how a journalist and a historian could even perform a DNA
test as reported in the story. Those guys are good!
Gerard
QED
> But I couldn't care less what Hitler's background was, and
> whether he had some distant Jewish ancestors or not. It doesn't change
> anything about what happened. It doesn't make his ideology any more or
> less crazy than it was. Just like the fine details of your church's
> history don't change anything about the general picture, about
> centuries of murder and oppression.
QED
>
> And what really happened is what interests me and what matters to me -
> history. History is very important and the exploration of the genome
> and haplogroup mapping is a particularly fascinating subject. And one
> which, of course, further proves that the creation story of your silly
> religion is nothing but a childish fairy tale.
QED
David Oberman
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>> Now how can you guys hear about something like this--something of such
>> cosmically amusing situational irony--& not believe in God?!
>
>I was wondering how a journalist and a historian could even perform a DNA
>test as reported in the story. Those guys are good!
I want to know which genes of mine are Jewish!
Doug McDonald
Not easy to tell!
It's not, however, totally impossible.
For $299 for can take a DNA test that will tell with
considerable reliability whether you are all Jewish, 1/2
Jewish or 1/4 Jewish. Less than that and the answer gets a
bit iffy but still, in the whole, reliable. But there's
a caveat: on the overall test its hard to tell Jews from
Greeks or Sicilians etc.
That's all of your DNA. If you really mean genes as opposed
to all the DNA that is not in genes, then the probability of
saying a given gene is Jewish or African or Chinese or
Maya etc. is fairly low. But it's not zero: the ARE variants
of lots of genes which are reliably known to be Jewish or
African, or whatever ... but most variants are generic and
appear in all people, having originated before the last "
out of Africa" migration. Of course be warned: if you really
are interested in genes, many of these known variants are
known because they cause disease.
As a business this is just getting started. But there are
several companies that try to do it. Some do better than
others. For the whole-genome mixture probabilities, my
computer program is at the moment the best.
Doug McDonald
Gerard
Probably you can detect easily who are the real ultra conservatives, of the
really good conductors.
You only need some DNA.
M forever
<mcdon...@scs.uiuc.edu.remove.invalid> wrote:
> On 8/25/2010 9:59 AM, David Oberman wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:12:17 -0500, "Frank Berger"
>
> >>> Now how can you guys hear about something like this--something of such
> >>> cosmically amusing situational irony--& not believe in God?!
>
> >> I was wondering how a journalist and a historian could even perform a DNA
> >> test as reported in the story. Those guys are good!
>
> > I want to know which genes of mine are Jewish!
>
> Not easy to tell!
>
> It's not, however, totally impossible.
>
> For $299 for can take a DNA test that will tell with
> considerable reliability whether you are all Jewish, 1/2
> Jewish or 1/4 Jewish.
That sounds like the race definitions in the Nuremberg laws.
> Less than that and the answer gets a
> bit iffy but still, in the whole, reliable. But there's
> a caveat: on the overall test its hard to tell Jews from
> Greeks or Sicilians etc.
>
> That's all of your DNA. If you really mean genes as opposed
> to all the DNA that is not in genes, then the probability of
> saying a given gene is Jewish or African or Chinese or
> Maya etc. is fairly low. But it's not zero: the ARE variants
> of lots of genes which are reliably known to be Jewish or
> African, or whatever ... but most variants are generic and
> appear in all people, having originated before the last "
> out of Africa" migration.
My understanding of this is that while the vast majority of our genes
is indeed common to all people and originate from the time before our
ancestors left Africa (presumably 50,000 years or so ago), there are
enough variants to trace the migration patterns of the haplotypes so
there is quite a bit of information there if you dig deep enough. I
have been thinking about doing on of those gene tests myself, but I
doubt you get a whole lot of information from those standard tests
which are offered for around $300. I think to learn more, the analysis
has to be far more thorough than what they offer.
O
<DavidO...@att.net> wrote:
Those would be the Levi Strauss Jeans, er, genes.
-Owen
Frank Berger
Your Levi's?
Doug McDonald
>
> My understanding of this is that while the vast majority of our genes
> is indeed common to all people and originate from the time before our
> ancestors left Africa (presumably 50,000 years or so ago), there are
> enough variants to trace the migration patterns of the haplotypes so
> there is quite a bit of information there if you dig deep enough. I
> have been thinking about doing on of those gene tests myself, but I
> doubt you get a whole lot of information from those standard tests
> which are offered for around $300. I think to learn more, the analysis
> has to be far more thorough than what they offer.
>
>
Some companies are better than others.
$299 will get you a huge amount of information about your
DNA: over 530,000 pairs of bases. That's with a company that
carefully removes all medical information, leaving
just ancestry information. For $499 you can get a slightly
larger set of data that includes the medical info.
It is a very very large amount of data. For ancestry purposes
much of it is redundant. Let's say that the effective amount
of data is a few thousand numbers, however, you need all
500,000 or so to "distill it down" to those smaller number.
Doug McDonald
M forever
But does that include tracing the haplotypes and all that to show you
from what regions your ancestors came?
Doug McDonald
>> $299 will get you a huge amount of information about your
>> DNA: over 530,000 pairs of bases. That's with a company that
>> carefully removes all medical information, leaving
>> just ancestry information. For $499 you can get a slightly
>>
>> Doug McDonald
>
> But does that include tracing the haplotypes and all that to show you
> from what regions your ancestors came?
Yes. What you get depends on the company. The $299 product does not yet
offer the ethnic ancestry part (it currently matches you with other
people for proven or "possible" cousinship) , but you've already paid
for it, and it will
appear in due time for your data.
In any case, I don't think any company is yet offering haplotype
analysis for autosomal data ... just genotype. The data is there, but
not the computer power.
Doug McDonald
David Oberman
<mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu.remove.invalid> wrote:
>For $299 for can take a DNA test that will tell with
>considerable reliability whether you are all Jewish, 1/2
>Jewish or 1/4 Jewish.
That's pretty interesting, Doug, but what is half Jewish or quarter
Jewish? Color me confused!
David Oberman
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>> I want to know which genes of mine are Jewish!
>
>Your Levi's?
<rolls eyes>
all right, boys, I'm getting back to my Josef von Sternberg film.
M forever
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:24:04 -0500, Doug McDonald
>
> >For $299 for can take a DNA test that will tell with
> >considerable reliability whether you are all Jewish, 1/2
> >Jewish or 1/4 Jewish.
>
> That's pretty interesting, Doug, but what is half Jewish or quarter
> Jewish? Color me confused!
Look up the Nuremberg Laws! What's interesting though is that that
service doesn't seem to cater to old Nazis but to Jews - who
apparently deem it very important to be as racially "pure" as
possible...
Ironic isn't it?
Frank Berger
My mother was Jewish, so I'm Jewish. I don't care about no stinkin' DNA.
Being Jewish has nothing to do with one's DNA anyway. Is a convert less
Jewish than I am? (No). For all I know I'm descended from converts. Don't
care. To care would be racist, wouldn't it?
David Oberman
wrote:
>Look up the Nuremberg Laws! What's interesting though is that that
>service doesn't seem to cater to old Nazis but to Jews - who
>apparently deem it very important to be as racially "pure" as
>possible...
>Ironic isn't it?
Yep. I've never heard a Jew refer to his Jewishness as a race, so it's
very odd.
David Oberman
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>My mother was Jewish, so I'm Jewish. I don't care about no stinkin' DNA.
>Being Jewish has nothing to do with one's DNA anyway. Is a convert less
>Jewish than I am? (No). For all I know I'm descended from converts. Don't
>care. To care would be racist, wouldn't it?
Absofrickinlutely (that's tmesis).
Ruth, a convert, is an adored hero in Judaism, & it is from her line
that Jews expect their annointed one to be born.
Eric Grunin
> BTW what is "Jewish DNA"? Is religion something DNA-related?
Being Jewish is not relevant, but being Hebraic is.
Judaism is unusual in that it does not seek converts, and often
discourages them. In addition, the history of persecution made it even
less likely that fresh blood would enter the line. As a result, for
example, there are genetic conditions which are largely specific to
Jews, just as sickle-cell anemia is (in the US) largely confined to
African-Americans.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Frank Berger
Ruth is my favorite book in Tanakh. Ever notice that DeMille stole Ruth's
speech and gave it to Moses' wife Zipporah in the Ten Commandments?
Frank Berger
Some Jews have a tradition of being descended from the Priestly familes
(Kohanim), descendents of Moses' brother Aaron. The common Jewish name
"Cohen" devives from that. Other commmon Jewish names also are likely to
indicate memembershp in that "club," Katz, for example (an acronym for
"righteous priest"). Most people named Cohen maintain such a family
tradition. By definition, the priestly status is passed only from father to
son. There are no certainties, though, as an ancestor could have faked his
status as a "Kohane" or an immigration official could botch a name and end
up with "Cohen." I know a "Cohen" who is not a "Kohane."
The interesting thing is that to the extent that this tradition *has*
actually been passed down through the generations, there should be genetic
evidence for it on the Y Chromosome. There are several studies confirming
that such evidence exists. A Jew of Eastern European descent who is a
Kohane is likely to share Y chromosome similarities with a Kohane of
Morrocan or Iraqi descent, even though the latter looks more like an Arab
and the former like a European.
Tha same should theoreticall by true for Jews whose family tradition says
they are descended from the tribe of Levi, of which the Kohanim are a
subset. However the Y-chromosome evidence is apparently lacking in this
case. So a Jew named Levy is less likely to actually be descended from the
tribe of Levi, I guess, than someone named Cohen is likely to be descended
frmo a priestly family. I can't remember where it's recorded, but there is
"evidence" consistent with this. When smome Jews returned from Babylon
after the destruction of the first Temple and prior to the building of the
second, it's recorded that they had trouble finding members of the tribe of
Levi to return with them. I imagine a lot of them assumilated into
Babylonoan society.