Joyce Hatto's birth, marriage and death certificates
Tony Overington
Family Records Centre and will try to find the three above records on
the pianist. For the past few days I've been searching Ancestry.co.uk
for info on Joyce Hatto, Joyce Barrington-Coupe, Joyce Barrington,
Joyce Coupe, as well as William and possible surnames. In addition to
finding my own marriage records in there, I've found records of a
Joyce Ethel Hatto b. 1924 d. 2002 (Norfolk), several Joyce Barringtons
who were born in 1928 and died 10-15 years ago, two Joyce Coupes born
1921 and '26, passing 10 - 15 years ago, but no trace of a marriage
certificate in any of these names, and aside from phone records I
don't see anything on a W B-C. I'm curious about pseudonyms, changed
names, middle names and B-C's hyphenated surname, though tomorrow I
should be able to track down any name changes and hopefully find a
proper death certificate. Any other name combos to try? I get the
feeling JH could well be nothing but a stage name.
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
This recent article said she was born in North London on 5 September
1928 ... the Birth Certificate Register should readily confirm
that ... or not, as the case may be ...
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1398283.ece
Don Petter
wrote:
According to the Independent obit (14/8/06) her middle name was
Hilda.
b. 5/9/28
d. 29/6/06
Don.
MrT
and later he changed it (or maybe not, who knows). But if any
evidence, such as concert programs or reviews, or student records, can
actually be found that she was already Joyce Hatto as a performer
before he came on the scene, this theory would not work.
Best,
MrT
Tony Overington
> This recent article said she was born in North London on 5 September
> 1928 ... the Birth Certificate Register should readily confirm
> that ... or not, as the case may be ...
>
Thanks, I'll have to check that first. Things have just become more
complicated as I've found out that the records centre does not carry
the full certificates but only the names and dates of births and
deaths as recorded by the year and quarter in which they occured (not
searchable by surname). It's all stored on microfiche and full
certificates are available only by ordering them at £7 each. This
makes the exercise rather futile then. If Joyce Hatto isn't listed
under 5 September 1928, then either she's under another name or the
date is incorrect.
Pisica
National Library of Scotland can possibly somehow provide useful
information, feel free to drop me a line for research assistance. (I
doubt the NLS would have much that the British Library doesn't, but
I'm happy to help.)
- Pisica, PhD
hedgehog
"Did you know that she was really Irish and her actual name was Joyce
O'Hatt, but Irish pianists were considered a non starter so she
cunningly changed it Joyce Hatto to hide her unfashionable
background."
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/mainforum.asp?messagesectionID=56&messageID=42130
rw...@btinternet.com
You really couldn't make this up, could you...
yenda smejkal
back...if he did porridge for that (which I believe I read somewhere) then
there may be records to do with that that might provide interesting info.
"hedgehog" <eloa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172247213.7...@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Alan P Dawes
EM <e-m-e-m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> - 23 Feb 2007 07:32:18 -0800 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
> > If Joyce Hatto isn't listed
> > under 5 September 1928, then either she's under another name or the
> > date is incorrect.
> She married Barrington-Coupe in 1956, so I read in the obituaries.
> There must be a record of that.
According to
http://www.eroll.co.uk/?action=search&page=search&searchkey=058b124bd1851af0cabfac1ccf2aa745&forename=Joyce&initial=&foption=1&surname=Barrington-Coupe&search_area=Hertfordshire&ER03=1&ER04=1&ER05=1&ER06=1&ER07=1&RR07=1&imageField.x=65&imageField.y=9
there was a Joyce Barrington-Coupe on the electoral register for
Hertfordshire for 2003 and 2004 but not since then.
According to http://peoplefinder4u.com/check_electoral_register.html
"At present, the Electoral register is compiled by sending an annual
canvass form to every house (a process introduced by Representation of the
People Act 1918). A fine of up to £1,000 can be imposed for failing to
complete the form or giving false information." So if this is the Joyce
B-C then either she broke the law by not registering in 2005 and 2006 or
she died or left Royston in 2004.
Alan
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | alan....@riscos.org
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Andrew Clarke
Reference to the Dublin telephone directory, the Mabinogion and the
complete works of James Joyce reveals no trace of any family called
O'Hatt: the poster to The Gramophone presumably had his tongue very
firmly in his cheek.
It is more likely that JH is a distant descendant of the former ducal
house of Ohattich-Jubelsharf. Always useful to have a handle to your
name.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
fromgoogle....@spamgourmet.com
Alan P Dawes wrote:
> According to
> http://www.eroll.co.uk/?action=search&page=search&searchkey=058b124bd1851af0cabfac1ccf2aa745&forename=Joyce&initial=&foption=1&surname=Barrington-Coupe&search_area=Hertfordshire&ER03=1&ER04=1&ER05=1&ER06=1&ER07=1&RR07=1&imageField.x=65&imageField.y=9
> there was a Joyce Barrington-Coupe on the electoral register for
> Hertfordshire for 2003 and 2004 but not since then.
>
> According to http://peoplefinder4u.com/check_electoral_register.html
> "At present, the Electoral register is compiled by sending an annual
> canvass form to every house (a process introduced by Representation of the
> People Act 1918). A fine of up to £1,000 can be imposed for failing to
> complete the form or giving false information." So if this is the Joyce
> B-C then either she broke the law by not registering in 2005 and 2006 or
> she died or left Royston in 2004.
>
> Alan
Not so clear-cut, unfortunately, since people can choose not to be
included on the 'edited register' that is made available to commercial
organisations:
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/your-vote/access.cfm . But at
least this establishes that she did exist and was alive in 2004. I
don't see any strong reason to doubt her reported date of death.
Tony Overington
in NW3 of London between 1957 and 1963. On Ancestry.co.uk the phone
records show that they lived at 109 Fellows Road, Primrose, NW3 (for
those who don't know, it's very close to Abbey Road (EMI Studios),
Regent's Park and Hampstead Heath). Evidently the marriage date of
1956 is correct then.
Tony Overington
Barrington-Coupe W. H. Ltd, Record Manufacturers - 1 Felixstowe Road,
Ladbroke NW10.
There is also a 1952 listing for Barrington-Coupe W. H. Concert
Direction Management - 40 Goodge Street, W1
John Briggs
> On Feb 24, 3:35 am, r...@btinternet.com wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 4:13 pm, "hedgehog" <eloaqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Saw this bit of info, not sourced, maybe a lead?
>>
>>> "Did you know that she was really Irish and her actual name was
>>> Joyce O'Hatt, but Irish pianists were considered a non starter so
>>> she cunningly changed it Joyce Hatto to hide her unfashionable
>>> background."
>>
>>> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/mainforum.asp?messagesectionID=56&message...
>>
>> You really couldn't make this up, could you...
>
> Reference to the Dublin telephone directory, the Mabinogion and the
> complete works of James Joyce reveals no trace of any family called
> O'Hatt: the poster to The Gramophone presumably had his tongue very
> firmly in his cheek.
The Mabinogion is Welsh :-)
Did you mean the Táin Bó Cúailnge?
--
John Briggs
Tony Overington
> She married Barrington-Coupe in 1956, so I read in the obituaries.
> There must be a record of that.
>
Indeed, and in the obit which Orga wrote for Muscweb, he noted 8
September '56 as the date of marriage.
Albert Mon
If it helps these are the entries from the GRO indices: (I tried to
attach images of the extracts but failed miserably on previous attempts)
Birth: Joyce H Hatto, Dec Qtr 1928, Mother Vincent, Location Paddington
(London), Vol 1a Page 7
The marriage is shown as between William H.B. Coupe and Joyce H HattS
(sic) Qtr Sep 1956 Lewisham Vol 5d, page 13
So even in marriage there is an element of mystery, I hesitate to say of
fraud!
Anyone can order paper copies of these from the Records Office
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
From personal experience it would take about 7 working days to get them
regards
AM
Tony Overington
> If it helps these are the entries from the GRO indices: (I tried to
> attach images of the extracts but failed miserably on previous attempts)
>
> Birth: Joyce H Hatto, Dec Qtr 1928, Mother Vincent, Location Paddington
> (London), Vol 1a Page 7
>
> The marriage is shown as between William H.B. Coupe and Joyce H HattS
> (sic) Qtr Sep 1956 Lewisham Vol 5d, page 13
>
> So even in marriage there is an element of mystery, I hesitate to say of
> fraud!
>
> Anyone can order paper copies of these from the Records Office
>
> http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
>
> From personal experience it would take about 7 working days to get them
>
> regards
>
> AM
Albert you beat me to it. I've just come back from the Family Records
Centre where I ordered the marriage certificate you mentioned above --
September quarter 1956 - Coupe, William H. B., married Hatts, Joyce H,
District of Lewisham. I've bought a copy at £7 which I should receive
next Monday, and it should show either her age or her birthdate as
well as possibly her signature.
I also found the same birth record. Nothing under the September
quarter of 1928 for Hatto, but in the December quarter it listed
Hatto, Joyce H., Maiden name - Vincent, born in the Paddington
district (St. Mary's Hospital probably). I have not bothered to order
a copy of this one.
I performed a manual search of birrth records from 1942 (when she
would have been an unlikely 14 years old on her marriage date) all the
way back to September 1919 (when she would have married at a rather
unlikely 37 years old). There were several Hatto entries, the most
likely of which being the December Qtr. one we both found (there was
Joyce M in the Dec Qtr of 1925, though this is less likely of course).
There were only 2 or 3 entries for Hatts during that period, and not
one for Joyce H. I'm not sure if Hatts could be a typographical error.
It seems unlikely, as the two separate marriage entries for Coupe and
Hatts matched. In any case I might find out more once I've received
the marriage certificate.
Speaking of the possible fraud you mentioned, I spoke to a staff
member there who informed me that the printed age on the marriage
certificate could be false--he seemed to imply that this wouldn't be
unlikely and could have been carried out on purpose--so even once I
receive the certificate it could be unhelpful.
Wish I'd known yesterday that I could search the General Register
Office for free....
Albert Mon
the contents have not yet been transcribed in their entirety to computer
format. Unfortunately it does not list past 1983 yet. It's not uncommon
for errors to have been made by the GRO clerks when copying the
handwritten details provided by the local registries.
Frequently the index entry for a birth can appear in the following
quarter or even year, especially when it's in the last month of a
quarter or year; the entry might even be handwritten if missed off the
original.
The certificate will show their age in years, her father's name and
profession, her husband's father and profession and two witnesses and
the spouses' addresses. In these educated times the spouses and
witnesses will sign. I found on marriage certificates of my ancestors in
the 1840 to 1890s the words "+ the mark of..." and they were supposed
to have gone to school! AS well, the ages were vague, sometimes simply
"of age".
regards
AM
John Briggs
Why not? It is highly likely to be the right one - if the birth was not
registered until the beginning of October, it would be included in the
December quarter.
--
John Briggs
Tony Overington
> Why not? It is highly likely to be the right one - if the birth was not
> registered until the beginning of October, it would be included in the
> December quarter.
> --
> John Briggs
I didn't order the birth certificate precisely because it's likely to
be the right one. I'm interested in the marriage certificate which
could yield some contradictory information (the Hatts surname is
tantalising, though based on Albert's information about handwritten
copies, it's likely to be incorrect). In any case if the marriage
certificate shows her age as 28 then we've got a match with the
birthdate of Sept. 1928. Only thing left to do is confirm the date she
passed, something not possible at present as the records only go up to
late 2005 (and I'm not going to manually check from 2005 back to the
'70s!). :)
Gerard
> "Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> - 23 Feb 2007 15:50:42 -0800 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
> is actually an anagram of Joy To Cheat.;-)
>
It has been figured out before at least twice in the last couple of days.
Paul Ilechko
> Albert you beat me to it. I've just come back from the Family Records
> Centre where I ordered the marriage certificate you mentioned above --
> September quarter 1956 - Coupe, William H. B., married Hatts, Joyce H,
> District of Lewisham. I've bought a copy at £7 which I should receive
> next Monday, and it should show either her age or her birthdate as
> well as possibly her signature.
>
Nancy Drew is on the case, with the Hardy Boys right behind.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:54b6fcF...@mid.individual.net:
Truer than you think -- supposedly there is a Hollywood movie in planning
about the Hardy Boys grown up, starring Tom Cruise and Ben Stiller.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Alan P Dawes
Tony Overington <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only thing left to do is confirm the date she
> passed, something not possible at present as the records only go up to
> late 2005 (and I'm not going to manually check from 2005 back to the
> '70s!). :)
Is it possible for someone to go to the registry office in Royston
Hertfordshire and ask to see the entries for deaths last summer?
Albert Mon
Vincent, marriage Qtr Sep 1926, Marylebone (London) Vol 1a, page 1510
Tony Overington
> just to add the fun, her parents are probably Horace Hatto and Dorothy H
> Vincent, marriage Qtr Sep 1926, Marylebone (London) Vol 1a, page 1510
Albert, how do you find such detailed information in Ancestry.co.uk? I
signed up for the 2 week trial but haven't been able to find things
like volume and page numbers, let alone the information about Hatto's
birth in the Paddington district.
Albert Mon
I've been researching my family history now for over two years, with
over 1600 people connected to me, sometimes very remotely like
grandchildren of the sister of the wife of a
great-great-great-grandfather, so, as they say, practice makes perfect!
Once you know, it's not too difficult. If someone was born before 1910
(approx) then there's a reasonable chance of finding them relatively
easily via www.freebmd.org.uk for nothing, or via Ancestry.co.uk by
searching the equivalent records. Sometimes Freebmd is easier, sometimes
Ancestry, but the information they have is identical - it has all been
transcribed by volunteers from the GRO paper indices.
Ancestry.co.uk has images of all the GRO paper indices and you can look
at these via www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx
and choosing the options under "Complete BMD Index ranges & Images
1837-1983". This will give pages from the GRO indices. It means looking
at the images and finding the names. The closer you are to the correct
date the better, but I have previously searched over large periods. It
simply takes time and patience.
See if you can find your own record!
regards
AM