My favorite Mahler 4th
Peter Lewis
recording is a very close second.
I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
of the boy soprano in the last movement.
I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
I inherited Haitink/Ameling/CBO from my father's estate, but
I've not listened to it. (It just occurs to me that I have it
on my shelf.)
I have Solti/Te Kanawa/CSO but haven't heard it in a long time.
Problem is, I so often find that listening Solti conduct must
be akin to witnessing an act of male-on-female sexual violence.
Not quite what one wants in Mahler 4.
I've not heard Klemperer/Schwarzkopf. Worth seeking out?
Also have Boulez and Chailly: interesting "also rans."
Any great ones that I'm missing?
What's the attraction of the Szell Mahler 4, anyway?
Peter Lewis
Akiralx
"Peter Lewis" <peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> wrote in message
news:f2hr7f$as9$1...@aioe.org...
VPO/Maazel
Bav RSO/C Davis
Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in news:f2hr7f$as9$1...@aioe.org:
> Any great ones that I'm missing?
Flicka with Abbado/VPO.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Richard Schultz
: Any great ones that I'm missing?
Walter/Kuppers/Frankfort Opera Orchestra
Walter/Seefried/Salzburg
People will undoubtedly tell you that you're missing the Mengelberg and
Britten performances. They are in fact both stinky-poo, although the
Mengelberg is worth having as an historical document of how different
a Mahler disciple could be from Walter.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
Richard Schultz
:> Any great ones that I'm missing?
:
: VPO/Maazel
Gag me with a fork. That one is even worse than Benjamin Britten's.
The orchestra seems to be playing in their sleep.
Paul Goldstein
>
>I've not heard Klemperer/Schwarzkopf. Worth seeking out?
No. Rather dull in the first three movements, and hideous overacting by the
soprano in the finale.
>Any great ones that I'm missing?
Salonen w/Hendricks, Abbado w/von Stade, Inoue (don't remember the soloist, but
she's good).
Paul Goldstein
>
>Peter Lewis <peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> - Thu, 17
>May 2007 17:09:38 +0200 (CEST):
>
>> .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
>> recording is a very close second.
>
I can't believe I forgot to mention this. Along with Mengelberg, probably my
single favorite M4.
Todd Schurk
Tennstedt/Chicago Symphony/Auger...fantastic...a live broadcast in
good sound over at Operashare...one of the best I've ever heard.
peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com
Norman Lebrecht's _Life and Death of Classical Music_ and
made the mistake of taking a peek at its contents. (What
an idiot! [Me or Lebrecht? How about both].) In his
listing of the 100 greatest recordings ever made, he
included the Szell Mahler 4th. Of course, he's Lebrecht,
so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that he would make
such an unoriginal choice. But he's not the only one, of
course, who has singled out the Szell. I just don't get
it.
Peter Lewis
Richard Loeb
news:f2hr7f$as9$1...@aioe.org...
Kletzki-Loose Richard
phlmae...@yahoo.com
that I like a lot.
jrs...@aol.com
> de Waart/Minnesota from that orchestra's Anniversary box is a sleeper
> that I like a lot.
Are you equating it to the Maazel/Vienna that supposedly was recorded
while the orchestra slept? ;-)
--Jeff
Richar...@gmail.com
It's hard for me to pass up a recording of Mahler 4. I'd suggest that
the great one you are missing is Kueblik/Bavarian Radio which I find
original and delightful. MTT/SFO is a great (technical) recording and
awfully well played.
The attraction of the Szell Mahler 4 - for me - is that it's the most
contrapuntally clear and articulate recording I've heard. Where
Reiner, for ex, will phrase the principal melody really beautifully
and balance the whole of the orchestra into a sonorous whole (an
approach that works perfectly for Richard Strauss) Szell gives you the
counter melodies, accompaniment and bass line all equally well
articulated and balanced with total regard for what the other parts
are doing and what their relative significance is to the whole. It's
the most Mahler 4 you can hear.
Frank Berger
"Peter Lewis" <peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> wrote in message
news:f2hr7f$as9$1...@aioe.org...
A little obscure, and not mentioned so far:
Horenstein/Price/1971/Chief
Rosbaud/Rogner/1951/Urania
Andrej Kluge
Frank Berger schrieb:
> A little obscure, and not mentioned so far:
>
> Horenstein/Price/1971/Chief
Didn't Horenstein used to be THE insider's tip for Mahler?
Ciao
A.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f2i1e...@drn.newsguy.com:
I love what Mengelberg does with the orchestra, but I definitely do not
love Jo Vincent.
Matthew B. Tepper
> Inoue (don't remember the soloist, but she's good).
Not Inoue, but Viscount Hidemaro Konoye, whose soloist is Eiko Kitazawa.
Unfortunately the performance is cut, AND the lathe ran out early.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:f2i962$k76$1...@aioe.org:
I bought Lebrecht's book after skimming it at Borders (and using one of my
30% off coupons), and while I'm sure a lot of it is doo-doo, he has some
good nasty stories about certain honchos I despise in the industry.
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1179429143....@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> de Waart/Minnesota from that orchestra's Anniversary box is a sleeper
> that I like a lot.
And Susan Graham, yumm!
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5b3pkdF...@mid.individual.net:
Much as I like Horenstein in Mahler (where is one of the places where David
Hurwitz and I part company sharply), I've never warmed to this one,
starting with that passage in the first movement where things get knocked
off-tempo for a few measures. They should have fixed that in editing!
Sacqueboutier
> Paul Goldstein <pgol...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:f2i1e...@drn.newsguy.com:
>> In article <orso43ds7k3jojsjt...@4ax.com>, EM says...
>>>
>>> Peter Lewis <peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> - Thu, 17
>>> May 2007 17:09:38 +0200 (CEST):
>>>
>>>> .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
>>>> recording is a very close second.
>>>
>>> Abravanel with Netania Davrath . . .
>>
>> I can't believe I forgot to mention this. Along with Mengelberg,
>> probably my single favorite M4.
>
> I love what Mengelberg does with the orchestra, but I definitely do not
> love Jo Vincent.
Ditto.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Paul Ilechko
> What's the attraction of the Szell Mahler 4, anyway?
It's beautifully paced, if a little lacking in detail, and the Soprano
is as close to perfect for the role as any I've heard.
Chailly is OK. I actually like Gatti, although I know that many don't.
It's pretty interventionist.
jrs...@aol.com
I like Gatti too, and I don't consider him an "interventionist." Then
again, I wouldn't say that about Mengelberg.
We're up to about 20 recommendations so far. That's not bad in a
thread of about 20 posts. I hope the original poster gets all of
these! Another 40 posts ought to break the bank.
--Jeff
Simon Roberts
>recording is a very close second.
>
>I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
>of the boy soprano in the last movement.
Yes, he's a problem. If you want a boy, try the cheap recording by Nanut or
whoever it is with Max Emanuel Cencic.
>I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
>I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
>Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
I understand finding the former dull, but the latter? Walter's phrasing is
remarkable, I think.
>I have Solti/Te Kanawa/CSO but haven't heard it in a long time.
>Problem is, I so often find that listening Solti conduct must
>be akin to witnessing an act of male-on-female sexual violence.
>Not quite what one wants in Mahler 4.
I don't think you'll find that here; rather, you get what you usually get from
Solti when he's not in aggressive mode: not much of anything.
>I've not heard Klemperer/Schwarzkopf. Worth seeking out?
Yes, though - depending on your reaction to Schwarzkopf in overacting mode - you
may want to switch if off after the third movement.
>Also have Boulez and Chailly: interesting "also rans."
>
>Any great ones that I'm missing?
Davrath/Abravanel (especially for her) and Gatti (though some find his rubato
etc. a bit, um, unsubtle). I would probably rank Rattle's rather high if it
weren't for his dreadful soprano.
>What's the attraction of the Szell Mahler 4, anyway?
I have no idea (but at least it's better than his M6).
Simon
Dontait...@aol.com
I agree with some others: Mengelberg (by far for me);
Kletzki/Emmy Loose
Don Tait
jrs...@aol.com
> Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:f2i1a...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
> > Inoue (don't remember the soloist, but she's good).
>
> Not Inoue, but Viscount Hidemaro Konoye, whose soloist is Eiko Kitazawa.
> Unfortunately the performance is cut, AND the lathe ran out early.
Why Konoye? I find that performance one of the few superfluous ones in
terms of quality.
Inoue is splendid (with Yvonne Kenny). The Royal Phil plays splendidly
too, but overall the performance is somewhat slow and more refined
than spunky, so it's not necessarily for everyone.
Not to be confused with Jun-Ichi Hirokami, also with the Royal Phil
but with Inge Dam-Jensen as the soloist. Oh, what the heck, that's a
nice recording too!
--Jeff
Dontait...@aol.com
>snip<
> I love what Mengelberg does with the orchestra, but I definitely do not
> love Jo Vincent.
Yes, she does have problems. It's a shame because she was a good,
intelligent singer.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:f2i1a...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
> > Inoue (don't remember the soloist, but she's good).
>
> Not Inoue, but Viscount Hidemaro Konoye, whose soloist is Eiko Kitazawa.
> Unfortunately the performance is cut, AND the lathe ran out early.
Equally unfortunately, the musicians are sometimes out of tune.
Don Tait
jrs...@aol.com
llc.com> wrote:
> .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
> recording is a very close second.
Mengelberg is one of my favorites despite the soloist.
>
> I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
> of the boy soprano in the last movement.
>
> I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
> I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
> Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
I don't find the Walter dull at all, but you should make an effort to
try his live recordings, specifically with the Concertgebouw or the
Vienna Phil with Seefried (already mentioned).
>
> I inherited Haitink/Ameling/CBO from my father's estate, but
> I've not listened to it. (It just occurs to me that I have it
> on my shelf.)
Listen to it. It's good. But Haitink may just be getting better and
better in this work. I liked his recording with Alexander, and the
broadcasts this year (all with the Concertgebouw) were best of all.
>
> I have Solti/Te Kanawa/CSO but haven't heard it in a long time.
> Problem is, I so often find that listening Solti conduct must
> be akin to witnessing an act of male-on-female sexual violence.
> Not quite what one wants in Mahler 4.
It's nothing like that--as Simon mentioned, Solti in his tame mode. I
like it but it's not a favorite and the recorded sound is not as good
as it should be. Actually, I also like Ozawa/BSO from that same
period, who is often akin to witnessing daffodil on daffodil violence;
in the case of the Mahler 4, the results are lovely anyway.....
Levine/CSO and Tennstedt/CSO (also mentioned) would be my preferred
recordings with that orchestra and two of my favorites (but Tennstedt/
BSO is also a good option too).
>
> I've not heard Klemperer/Schwarzkopf. Worth seeking out?
Definitely. But Klemperer is a little more satisfying to me in the
live versions available. Nonetheless, the Philharmonia is as
impressive here as in Kletzki's great recording.
>
> Also have Boulez and Chailly: interesting "also rans."
The former is not as good as Dohnanyi with the same orchestra but he's
still interesting. Again, the live Boulez has more life to it without
really having the sound quality to match. Chailly doesn't trump the
later Haitink performances, but wow, what a pretty sound!
>
> Any great ones that I'm missing?
The Rosbaud is almost the great one but the sound is not very good.
The live Walter(s) have better sound.
Gatti. MTT. Davis. Most of the excellent recordings have been
mentioned already, but also maybe:
Levi
Sinopoli
Zander
Ludwig
Jordan
Schmidt-Isserstedt
Norrington (the broadcast was very promising)
More surprising that no one has yet mentioned these lovely recordings:
Van Beinum
van Otterloo
Sejna
> What's the attraction of the Szell Mahler 4, anyway?
I agree with those who point to the contrapuntal clarity. I'll add
that I think the playing is beautiful.
--Jeff
jrs...@aol.com
Oh, and Barbirolli. Have you tried his? Warm and full blooded and
maybe appealing to a Bernstein/Mengelberg listener.
--Jeff
phlmae...@yahoo.com
Not quite. I have it on good authority that the orchestra was wide
awake for this one.
Paul Goldstein
Tritto. Desert island disc anyway, though.
Paul Goldstein
jrs...@aol.com says...
>
>On May 17, 1:26 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy=F...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed innews:f2i1a...@drn.newsguy.com:
>>
>> > Inoue (don't remember the soloist, but she's good).
>>
>> Not Inoue, but Viscount Hidemaro Konoye, whose soloist is Eiko Kitazawa.
>> Unfortunately the performance is cut, AND the lathe ran out early.
>
>Why Konoye? I find that performance one of the few superfluous ones in
>terms of quality.
>
>Inoue is splendid (with Yvonne Kenny). The Royal Phil plays splendidly
>too, but overall the performance is somewhat slow and more refined
>than spunky, so it's not necessarily for everyone.
That's the one I meant. I've never heard the ancient Konoye.
TareeDawg
> .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
> recording is a very close second.
>
> of the boy soprano in the last movement.
>
> I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
> I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
> Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
Kletzki with Emmy Loose.
Overall, with time, and from listening to other alternatives, the Szell
comes across as too heavy and leaden, especially compared to Kletzki.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
joey7c...@yahoo.com
> "Peter Lewis" <peter.le...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> wrote in message
> Kletzki-Loose Richard
A plastic surgeon tightened mine up years ago.
Richard Loeb
news:1179446748.2...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Oh stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Richard (that really was funny!!!!)
>
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f2iiu...@drn.newsguy.com:
My mistake -- I had forgotten that Inoue had recorded it too. I remember he
did a pretty good 6th, though. The Konoye is, frankly, only of historical
interest as the first recording. It was available years ago on a Denon CD.
A. Brain
news:f2iej...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <f2hr7f$as9$1...@aioe.org>, Peter Lewis says...
>>
>>.. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
>>recording is a very close second.
>>
>>I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
>>of the boy soprano in the last movement.
>
> Yes, he's a problem. If you want a boy, try the cheap recording by
> Nanut or
> whoever it is with Max Emanuel Cencic.
Yes, the Nanut is surprisingly good, as is the soloist.
I believe that a somewhat controversial poster here
may have vouched for Nanut's credentials as a
Mahler conductor. But anyone who has ever driven
through Ljublana (and I admit I haven't lately) would
be surprised at the quality of this recording, which
dates from the late '80s when Cencic was still
a boy. Somehow he's still a "soprano" twenty
years later--I forget just how or why.
Another one using a boy treble is the
Stein arrangement for chamber orchestra
on Novalis--worth hearing for its novelty.
The only other recording of this version that
I know of is on Dorian with a Santa Fe group,
but I haven't heard that one yet.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> Yes, the Nanut is surprisingly good, as is the soloist.
> I believe that a somewhat controversial poster here
> may have vouched for Nanut's credentials as a
> Mahler conductor. But anyone who has ever driven
> through Ljublana (and I admit I haven't lately) would
> be surprised at the quality of this recording, which
> dates from the late '80s when Cencic was still
> a boy. Somehow he's still a "soprano" twenty
> years later--I forget just how or why.
>
A lovely city in a lovely country. We spent a few days there last summer
and intend to get back for a longer stay. There are some wineries we
want to visit, and I'd like to lay flowers on Carlos Kleiber's grave.
As for the Mahler 4, I'm in general agreement with what seems to be
prevailing opinion; I wouldn't be without Mengelberg (sui generis, IMO),
Abravanel, or Kletzki.
Bob Harper
Andrew T. Kay
for which he praises it, seem odd in context of the rest of his book.
Examples: "Szell gripped [the opening] in a metronomic vice [sic] that
released the rest of the symphony to flow with limitless freedom...The
gypsy fiddle in the second movement is just another beauty, not an
anomaly...Mahler without indulgence, played as written in a clinical
interpretation...the stone by which other recordings are measured. It
is immaculate in every detail, almost inhumanly perfect."
It's fine that he likes that sort of shipshape, super-objective Mahler
4, but his views expressed elsewhere in the book -- indeed, beginning
on the first page, as he contrasts Kempff and Schnabel in early piano
recordings -- would lead one to think he'd *hate* it. In particular,
he derides Karajan over and over for being "sleek" and imposing an
"immaculate sheen" and pursuing "ice-cold perfectionism" and so on.
The one HvK recording that makes it onto NL's "good" list is his last
studio recording, the VPO Bruckner 7. In his note of explanation, NL
pats the conductor on the head for finally embracing "imperfection" at
the very end of his life (examples given include ragged entrances,
rough string playing, et cetera). I wonder why Szell didn't get docked
any points for failing to embrace imperfection. In my experience with
his recordings, not only did he not embrace imperfection, he wouldn't
even take its phone calls. (Indeed, if "ice-cold perfectionism" is a
vice, one would expect Lebrecht to put Szell well below Karajan. Even
Karajan's admirers, of which I generally am one, have pointed out that
he let many incidental blemishes get out on recordings throughout his
career -- things a Reiner or a Szell likely never would have let pass
-- if he liked a particular take on the whole).
Todd K
Andrew T. Kay
llc.com> wrote:
> Problem is, I so often find that listening Solti conduct must
> be akin to witnessing an act of male-on-female sexual violence.
Well, that would make sense -- Lebrecht tells us very early in the new
book that Solti was "aggressively heterosexual." ("There was no male
rivalry between [Solti and John Culshaw], since Culshaw was gay and
Solti was aggressively heterosexual.")
Todd K
Gerard
>
> I like Gatti too,
Me too.
>
> We're up to about 20 recommendations so far. That's not bad in a
> thread of about 20 posts.
Is it more than the previous Mahler 4 thread?
Or is there anything new since the previous Mahler 4 thread?
scou...@nospamprovide.net
<peter...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-llc.com> wrote:
>..
>Any great ones that I'm missing?
Horenstein
Klemperer
Mengleberg
Barbirolli
>
>Peter Lewis
Jon Alan Conrad
time-tested favorites:
Kletzki/Loose
Abbado/Von Stade
Haitink/Ameling (perhaps most of all for her, caught at the point when
her fame was first cresting)
I see that Chailly has Barbara Bonney, whom I would expect to be ideal
in the last movement. Is she?
And I've been thinking about getting the Britten, being an admirer of
his (including his conducting). Is it really that bad?
JAC
Simon Roberts
says...
>Yes, the Nanut is surprisingly good, as is the soloist.
>I believe that a somewhat controversial poster here
>may have vouched for Nanut's credentials as a
>Mahler conductor. But anyone who has ever driven
>through Ljublana (and I admit I haven't lately) would
>be surprised at the quality of this recording, which
>dates from the late '80s when Cencic was still
>a boy. Somehow he's still a "soprano" twenty
>years later--I forget just how or why.
He's now a countertenor (and has been for a few years). If you're interested in
him, there's a fascinating DVD attached to his CD of Scarlatti cantatas on
Capriccio.
Simon
O
Schurk <patte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 17, 8:09 am, Peter Lewis <peter.le...@lewis-born-schenbeckler-
> llc.com> wrote:
> > .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
> > recording is a very close second.
> >
> > I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
> > of the boy soprano in the last movement.
> >
> > I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
> > I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
> > Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
> >
> > I inherited Haitink/Ameling/CBO from my father's estate, but
> > I've not listened to it. (It just occurs to me that I have it
> > on my shelf.)
> >
> > I have Solti/Te Kanawa/CSO but haven't heard it in a long time.
> > Problem is, I so often find that listening Solti conduct must
> > be akin to witnessing an act of male-on-female sexual violence.
> > Not quite what one wants in Mahler 4.
> >
> > I've not heard Klemperer/Schwarzkopf. Worth seeking out?
> >
> > Also have Boulez and Chailly: interesting "also rans."
> >
> > Any great ones that I'm missing?
> >
> > What's the attraction of the Szell Mahler 4, anyway?
> >
> > Peter Lewis
>
> Tennstedt/Chicago Symphony/Auger...fantastic...a live broadcast in
> good sound over at Operashare...one of the best I've ever heard.
>
Hmm...the Operashare link no longer works. I there an updated link?
-Owen
Paul Ilechko
> I see that Chailly has Barbara Bonney, whom I would expect to be ideal
> in the last movement. Is she?
Not bad, but I wouldn't say ideal. Not ethereal enough, she sounds too
much the mature woman.
jrs...@aol.com
No, but in a crowded field Britten's becomes forgettable. I admire
Britten's conducting in many other instances, but here he pales
compared to, say, Barbirolli, the other BBC Legends release so far.
I suppose I should recheck my initial impression, but time doesn't
allow...
--Jeff
pgaron
have greatly enjoyed Ben Zander's recording with the Philharmonia
Orch., including the discussion disc that is included. Also, Camilla
Tilling, the young soprano who sings in the final movement, has a
voice that sounds just right for conveying the child's view of the
heavenly life.
pgaron
O
wrote:
Found it - it's in another place in Operashare (look for the note about
archiving).
Wow! What a performance. I agree it's the best I've heard. Tennstedt
always had a way with the slow movement, and this is the best of his
best. Even the opening movement, which he doesn't do as well in the
EMI studio disks, is absolutely fantastic here.
-Owen
david...@aol.com
llc.com> wrote:
I can't stand Szell's, but I wouldn't put Halban/Walter in the same
category . . . not by a long shot. Walter's studio recording
continues to be my favorite even though I've managed to acquire a
couple of his live recordings. I'd be curious to hear Bernstein's
recording of the slow movement again, but his last movement is too
slow: Walter is almost the only conductor to take the last movement
up to tempo with the right snap in that opening tune: da D'da D'da da
da. This is so obviously correct, the snaps so clearly the source of
the music's propulsion, I can't even begin to understand how the
tradition of performing it correctly has so thoroughly vanished.
-david gable
Matthew Silverstein
>: VPO/Maazel
>
> Gag me with a fork. That one is even worse than Benjamin Britten's. The
> orchestra seems to be playing in their sleep.
Ah well. I love Britten's (but not Maazel's).
Matty
Heck51
> I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
> Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.>>
Mahler 4 requires great WW playing, among many things...it is like a
"concerto for WW 5tet and orchestra". :)
My favorites are Reiner/Della Casa/CSO
Walter/Halban/NYPO [remarkably good sounding for 1945]
Szell/Cleveland is very good and features fine playing, but I agree,
there is a "stiffness", a straight-ness in the approach, which doesn't
match favorably with the aforementioned.
Richard Schultz
:>: VPO/Maazel
I once made a copy of Britten's performance for a former music teacher of
mine (the one who turned me on to Mahler, as it happens) and his response
was that he was tempted to terminate it with extreme prejudice after the
first movement. That was more or less my reaction, although it does get
marginally better as it goes along.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
CharlesSmith
>
> Szell/Cleveland is very good and features fine playing, but I agree,
> there is a "stiffness", a straight-ness in the approach, which doesn't
> match favorably with the aforementioned.
I got to know this symphony in the late 1960's listening repeatedly to
a friend's LP - I now can't recall which. When I went to the record
shop to buy my own they were adamant that I needed the lastest
recording, which surpassed any previous versions - so I bought it -
the Szell. It has a lot of beauty, especially in the slow movement,
but lacks the elegance, intimacy and flexibility of phrasing my
friend's version had. Any ideas what it might have been? It was
considered to be THE version before Szell arrived on the scene.
Jon Alan Conrad
> I got to know this symphony in the late 1960's listening repeatedly to
> a friend's LP - I now can't recall which. When I went to the record
> shop to buy my own they were adamant that I needed the lastest
> recording, which surpassed any previous versions - so I bought it -
> the Szell. It has a lot of beauty, especially in the slow movement,
> but lacks the elegance, intimacy and flexibility of phrasing my
> friend's version had. Any ideas what it might have been? It was
> considered to be THE version before Szell arrived on the scene.
This one's a challenge, because the Szell came out in 1965 or 1966,
and so it wouldn't have been "the newest" by the time you had gotten
to know your friend's version in the "late 1960s" and then gone to buy
your own -- the late 60s was a boom time for Mahler popularity and
recording, with new recordings coming along every month and the first
stereo complete cycles appearing.
So I'm going to be presumptuous and guess that the Szell was simply
the strong preference of your record-store people, and not actually
the newest. The idea of THE version of the symphony might well have
come from Bernard Jacobson's comparative discographic article in HIGH
FIDELITY, issue of September 1967 (if I recall right -- my copy is in
a carton in the attic). This was one of the first such efforts to
compare recorded versions of Mahler symphonies (hard to believe now,
huh?). And my recollection is that he liked Bernstein/Grist, but his
top recommendation (sort of rescuing it from semi-obscurity) was
Kletzki/Loose. And, if I have my chronology right, EMI/Angel was
paying attention and shortly afterward gave that version a low-priced
reissue on Seraphim.
So Kletzki is my guess.
JAC
Alan Cooper
@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
> On May 20, 5:07 am, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> I got to know this symphony in the late 1960's listening repeatedly to
>> a friend's LP - I now can't recall which. When I went to the record
>> shop to buy my own they were adamant that I needed the lastest
>> recording, which surpassed any previous versions - so I bought it -
>> the Szell. It has a lot of beauty, especially in the slow movement,
>> but lacks the elegance, intimacy and flexibility of phrasing my
>> friend's version had. Any ideas what it might have been? It was
>> considered to be THE version before Szell arrived on the scene.
>
> This one's a challenge, because the Szell came out in 1965 or 1966,
> and so it wouldn't have been "the newest" by the time you had gotten
> to know your friend's version in the "late 1960s" and then gone to buy
> your own -- the late 60s was a boom time for Mahler popularity and
> recording, with new recordings coming along every month and the first
> stereo complete cycles appearing.
<snip>
> So Kletzki is my guess.
Well reasoned, except that op didn't say that the recording he learned the work from was
in stereo, so for all we know, he could have been listening to Walter's studio recording.
(Could one forget the sound of Halban's voice, though?) Ludwig and Reiner came out around
the same time as Kletzki, and Bernstein appeared shortly thereafter. For "elegance,
intimacy, and flexibility of phrasing," though--at least according to my taste--I would
give pride of place among pre-1960 recordings to Van Beinum, which has been mentioned by
only one previous poster! Indeed, I can think of few more recent recordings in the same
class. So Kletzki is a good guess, of course, but there are other possibilities.
I've detested Szell's slo-mo first movement from my first hearing when the recording was
brand new, but there are many compensations in the rest of the symphony.
AC
Paul Ilechko
> (Could one forget the sound of Halban's voice, though?)
Perhaps if one had a good hypnotist? But it's supposed to be bad for you
to suppress unpleasant memories.
Jon Alan Conrad
(though I think it has plenty) but that the idea of "THE preferred
version," in the late 1960s, very likely came from that Jacobson
article -- the highest-profile comparison of Mahler recordings at that
point in time, recently published in the monthly magazine that most
classical-recording consumers read avidly and discused among
themselves. (I remember happy arguments in college dorm rooms about
this, Jacobson's later Berlioz discography, the similar Sibelius-
symphony comparison, and the to-do about the Solti ELEKTRA recording,
all from the pages of HIGH FIDELITY. We were all the perfect age and
temperament to get worked up about such things, and we all
subscribed.)
JAC
Alan Cooper
@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
Excellent point, and I was an avid reader of HF as well. Until some time in the late '60s,
just about every Mahler recording was an "event," and I acquired a nearly complete
collection despite very limited resources. As the field expanded, the excitement faded--for
me, at least. It's rare that one of the newer recordings will match the old thrill
(Sanderling's 6th certainly does, for one), and when I buy a "new" Mahler recording,
frequently it is a newly issued performance by one of the earlier conductors (Rosbaud,
Mitropoulos, Maderna, Van Beinum, and Kondrashin come immediately to mind).
AC
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5bb3kbF...@mid.individual.net:
I think she's still easier to take than Jo Vincent.
Richard Loeb
news:Xns99367233B140Eam...@69.28.186.158...
have a complete bound set from the first issue through 1983 in my library
and wonderful reading it is. Richard
"Alan Cooper"
makropulos
That seems a pretty good guess. And it remains a terrific
performance.
As an aside, the one I grew up with was the 1957 DG recording
conducted by Leopold Ludwig with Anny Schlemm and the Dresden
Staatskapelle (described as the Saxon State Orchestra on the sleeve),
on a Heliodor LP. It's decades since I heard this so I can't imagine
what I'd make of it rehearing it again now, but it certainly did the
trick at the time in terms of making me love the work when I was in my
teens. Has anybody listened to this more recently?
CharlesSmith
Thanks for this, and later postings. I'm pretty sure that the Kletzki
is the one I knew. It would be interesting to hear it again. I thought
I might try to pick it up now, but see the price on Amazon Marketplace
is excessive - I don't need it that much.
Dontait...@aol.com
> Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:5bb3kbF...@mid.individual.net:
>
> > Alan Cooper wrote:
>
> >> (Could one forget the sound of Halban's voice, though?)
>
> > Perhaps if one had a good hypnotist? But it's supposed to be bad for you
> > to suppress unpleasant memories.
>
> I think she's still easier to take than Jo Vincent.
Regarding Desi Halban, after Walter died in early 1962 an article by
her about him was published in The American Record Guide. I no longer
have a copy, but I remember its essence well. She revealed that there
was a personal story behind her recordings with Walter, a rather
touching one.
Halban was the daughter of Selma Kurz, the great turn-of-the-20th
century soprano and one of the greatest stars of the Vienna Opera when
Mahler (and his young assistant Walter) were there. Halban wrote that
as a result she'd known Walter since she was a child. When upon
growing up she decided she wanted a singing career, she went to Walter
for advice. She wrote that he said he thought she might be able to
have a successful one but strongly advised her to start in small,
provincial opera houses to learn her craft and, more importantly,
enable her voice to mature and settle.
She said she ignored his advice and tried to start with appearances
in major venues. And she wrote candidly that she paid the price. As
Walter had warned her, her voice suffered damage from overuse, singing
inappropriate roles, and so on. She wrote that her Mahler recordings
with him -- the 4th Symphony and the collection of songs with him at
the piano --were something of a sentimental gesture from him. She also
wrote that neither of them liked the Mahler songs set and that both
wanted to make the recordings again, but they were never able to do
so.
One can blame Walter for using Halban in these recordings, of
course; she is indeed below par, especially in the songs (which I find
extremely hard to endure) and with the personal issues between them
removed, her singing is what remains. But at least her article
explained that rightly or wrongly her presence was something of a
personal gesture on his part.
Don Tait
Bob Harper
this recording *except* that awful voice, Walter's good tempo and proper
'snap' notwithstanding. Maybe I should just listen to the first three
movements and go elsewhere for the Finale.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
(snip)
> As was I and I even remember where I was when I bought certain issues - I
> have a complete bound set from the first issue through 1983 in my library
> and wonderful reading it is. Richard
>
>
heartily second his evaluation of the old HF. I sold my late father's
collection (late 1954-mid 1980s), but I remember many hours of enjoyment
with them. Had I had an economical way to get them here, and room to
store them, I suspect I'd still have them.
Bob Harper
Richard Loeb
news:HcCdnTyIvrgjBM3b...@comcast.com...
Yes I really learned so much from reading David Hamilton, Will Crutchfield
and others but esp. Conrad L. Osborne (also a wonderful actor and teacher)
who taught me so much and really influenced the way I listen to vocal music.
So much of his writing is ingrained in my psyche that I give out his
opinions verbatim without even thinking. But he taught me much about the
vocal method, and about the marriage of drama and music in ways that are
completely absent from writing today. And never ever condescending or
high-handed. Still happy and healthy today - I just wish he wrote more
often and had a venue in which to write!!!!! I often pull out a volume of
this wonderful magazine as a reminder of what great music criticism can be.
And Bob - you are right -they take up a LOT of space esp. bound. Richard
dfo...@austin.rr.com
says...
>
>Thanks for this, and later postings. I'm pretty sure that the Kletzki
>is the one I knew. It would be interesting to hear it again. I thought
>I might try to pick it up now, but see the price on Amazon Marketplace
>is excessive - I don't need it that much.
>
The Kletzki is available pretty cheaply ($10 or so) from amazon resellers if you
look for the version coupled with Das Lied.
Dan
Michael Schaffer
> As an aside, the one I grew up with was the 1957 DG recording
> conducted by Leopold Ludwig with Anny Schlemm and the Dresden
> Staatskapelle (described as the Saxon State Orchestra on the sleeve),
State Orchestra is what Staatskapelle actually means. The correct name
of the orchestra is Sächsische (Saxonian) Staatskapelle, although
during GDR times, they usually just referred to it as Staatskapelle
Dresden.
> on a Heliodor LP. It's decades since I heard this so I can't imagine
> what I'd make of it rehearing it again now, but it certainly did the
> trick at the time in terms of making me love the work when I was in my
> teens. Has anybody listened to this more recently?
No, but I would like to. The only copies I see are on Berlin Classics,
and they are very expensive.
Michael Schaffer
llc.com> wrote:
> .. is Bernstein's NYPO with Reri Grist. The Mengelberg CBO
> recording is a very close second.
>
> I also like the Bernstein CBO recording--except for the use
> of the boy soprano in the last movement.
I heard that live and while I really liked the performance (and the
recording, too), I could never get used to the boy soprano either. So
the recording I mostly listen to these days is Bernstein's film with
the WP and Mathis.
I also like Salonen's highly analytic and musically very detailed
recording with the LAP and Hendricks. A totally different approach.
Karajan's BP recording has recently grown more and more on me. It has
a certain dreamlike remoteness in some parts which I find very
interesting and appropriate for the fairy tale athmosphere of the
music.
Apart from these, I really enjoy Kubelik's SOBR and Neumann's CP
readings which are very stylish.
Finally, another favorite of mine is Sinopoli with the PO because he
finds a lot of interesting detail and expressive points which others
don't take such a close look at.
> I really do not care for the Szell recording, a performance
> I find rather uninteresting, even a bit dull. Ditto the
> Halban/Walter/NYPO recording.
>
Paul Ilechko
Yes, it's a shame, as the first three movements are so good ...
makropulos
> On May 20, 9:03 am, makropulos <makropu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> State Orchestra is what Staatskapelle actually means. The correct name
> of the orchestra is Sächsische (Saxonian) Staatskapelle, although
> during GDR times, they usually just referred to it as Staatskapelle
> Dresden.
>
confusion about this here in the past.
Interestingly, on the orchestra's own website (part of the www.semperoper.de
site), it describes itself (now) as "Staatskapelle Dresden" (in the
menu bar) and as "Sächsische Staatskapelle Dresden" (in the main
text).
>
> No, but I would like to. The only copies I see are on Berlin Classics,
> and they are very expensive.
Thanks for mentioning this Berlin Classics reissue - I didn't realise
Ludwig's performance had made it to CD at all. I must look out for an
affordable copy.
Dave Cook
> Thanks for this, and later postings. I'm pretty sure that the Kletzki
> is the one I knew. It would be interesting to hear it again. I thought
> I might try to pick it up now, but see the price on Amazon Marketplace
> is excessive - I don't need it that much.
EMI has reissued it in the Gemini series:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Das-Lied-Erde-Symphony/dp/B000B668U4
Dave Cook
david...@aol.com
> Yes I really learned so much from reading David Hamilton, Will Crutchfield
> and others but esp. Conrad L. Osborne (also a wonderful actor and teacher)
> who taught me so much and really influenced the way I listen to vocal music.
David Hamilton wrote a very long and extraordinarily detailed rave
(feature) review of Charles Rosen's recording of the Last Keyboard
Works of Bach (Goldberg's, Art of Fugue, 2 ricercars from Musical
Offering) and was a consistently well informed critic of the most
difficult music of the last century, writing informatively on the
subject of two of his enthusiasms, Arnold Schoenberg and Elliott
Carter. Osborne wrote with considerable flare and is fun to read.
He's also able to convey somthing about vocal technique in his
writing, but anybody who thinks Tebaldi's harsh and out of tune late
performance of Gioconda on Decca is the bees knees cannot be trusted.
-david gable
CharlesSmith
Thanks - and it's on UK Amazon at about the same price.
wa...@thedome.com
J.Martin
> listing of the 100 greatest recordings ever made, he
> included the Szell Mahler 4th. Of course, he's Lebrecht,
> so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that he would make
> such an unoriginal choice. But he's not the only one, of
> course, who has singled out the Szell. I just don't get
> it.
>
I recently listened to the Szell for the first time in a long time,
and even as one who generally reveres Szell, I found it pretty dull.
In fact, it sent me going through my collection to find something with
a bit more charm, joy and flexibility. I was surprised to find my
favorite was Haitink's Kirtmatinee performance: wonderful wind
playing, nicely modulated tempos, lovely stuff.
J.