Opinions: the New Swing Craze
Mug...@my-dejanews.com
what does everyone think of the new "swing" craze? Groups like the Squirrell
Nut Zippers, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and those of their
ilk are popping up everywhere, and kids are Jitterbugging in clubs across the
USA. Is this, in your opinion, a good thing?
I'll get the ball rolling.
When I first heard Squirrel Nut Zippers I was impressed. These kids seemed to
have gotten the music they were playing down pretty damn well, stylistically
speaking (except for the guitarist, who I think is the weakest link in the
chain), their songs were catchy and fun to listen to. I have cooled on them
since. I still enjoy the CD I have, but I also think it's been overplayed in
various markets.
To me it seems like many of the other groups are just playing good ol'
territory band swing, but with a stronger backbeat. Naturally, the music is
not going to be an exact copy of that which it tries to emulate, but who
would want that? Jazz is a growing, breathing, vibrant and ever-changing art
form, but a look back now and then isn't a bad thing, even if it's a look
back through the eyes of pop culture.
Ultimately, it is my hope that SNZ and all the other groups open the door to
young people about jazz and that they might be interested in finding out more,
that they might start digging into the past and find the true masters. That's
sort of what happened to me, me didn't listen to jazz in my home, it wasn't
forbidden or anything, we just didn't have any. I discovered jazz through a
friend when I was in high school, it changed my life. Hopefully, the lives of
others will be changed in much the same way.
Okay, it's your turn. What do you think of the "New Swing Craze?"
Remember, people, these are just opinions, let's keep it civil, please.
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Matt Snyder
>So...
>
>what does everyone think of the new "swing" craze? Groups like the Squirrell
>Nut Zippers, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and those of their
>ilk are popping up everywhere, and kids are Jitterbugging in clubs across the
>USA. Is this, in your opinion, a good thing?
For a friend of mine who until recently lived in Chicago, it was a
great thing. He plays clarinet, and for 2 or 3 nights a week he was
gigging with a swing small group run by a guitarist who had
transcribed lots of Shaw and Goodman small group things. He made good
money and the kids in attendance danced their butts off. "We love
this stuff!" they would tell him, while sipping their martinis and
smoking cigars. Who cares why they like it? If musicians are being
employed as a result, I don't want to know why.
B.B. Bean
Daddies for Lionel Hampton, the modern version still retains lots of soul and
umph. Besides, and genre that requires horn players is a good thing.
BBB
--
B.B. Bean bbb...@beancotton.com
Peach Orchard, MO http://www.beancotton.com/music.shtml
Have Horn, Will Travel
P. Rust
>
> So...
>
> what does everyone think of the new "swing" craze? Groups like the Squirrell
> Nut Zippers, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and those of their
> ilk are popping up everywhere, and kids are Jitterbugging in clubs across the
> USA. Is this, in your opinion, a good thing?
>
A friend of mine knows I like swing music, so she lent me her
16-year-old daughter's Cherry Poppin' Daddies record (which I liked).
In turn, I lent the daughter my Count Basie The Complete Decca
Recordings (which she liked). The way I see it: today, the Count;
tomorrow, the Duke and Prez!
Peggy
Zapbailey
bands, playing Miller and Basie charts at weddings, etc. Most of the time, the
folks my age would maintain a chilly distance from the dance floor, sneering
from tables in the back of the hall- the people who actually knew how to dance
to this stuff had been collecting Social Security for some time. A few weeks
ago, I played a wedding with a big band- the floor was packed with kids under
25 who could dance their asses off, and genuinely (I think) appreciated the
music. It's nice to know that in twenty years people of my generation might
know and appreciate swing as a living thing and not museum music under glass,
and that I may come to be paid even more handsomely to play with big bands at
weddings....
Art Bailey
Victor Eijkhout
> It's nice to know that in twenty years people of my generation might
> know and appreciate swing as a living thing and not museum music under glass,
FSVO living. These 'swing kids' dress up in 30s/40s outfits. The
terms 'retro' is even used with pride.
--
Victor Eijkhout
"The Navy began running shipboard applications under Microsoft Windows NT [..]
The ship had to be towed into the Naval base at Norfolk, Va., because
a database overflow caused its propulsion system to fail [...]" (GCN)
Kurt Nordwell P500
I don't particularly care for the music, but that's my opinion.
Whatever floats your boat, but I do think, like disco, it is a fad
not the start of a trend of deeper musical consciousness in the US.
> Ultimately, it is my hope that SNZ and all the other groups open the door to
> young people about jazz and that they might be interested in finding out more,
> that they might start digging into the past and find the true masters.
Ain't gonna happen. The leap from SNZ to Coltrane/Davis is simply too great
a leap for people who essentially want to dance. I know folks here in NC who
obsess on the SNZ. I can assure you that they have absolutely no interest in
(other) jazz music. However, maybe someone will get exposed somehow to some
music they might not have checked out; who knows.
BTW - I heard that in their spare time the SNZ listen to John Coltrane.
Peace,
Kurt
Zapbailey
>FSVO living. These 'swing kids' dress up in 30s/40s outfits. The
>terms 'retro' is even used with pride.
Good Lord-how awful! What can we do to stomp out this terrible fad, then? (
Don't know what "FSVO" means, but I think I can assume it's something mildly
condescending.) It sure beats the hell out of anything I've heard on the radio
in the last ten years, and if there's an enthusiastic audience for it, they can
dress any way they want as far as I'm concerned.
Art Bailey
Marc Sabatella
>> Ultimately, it is my hope that SNZ and all the other groups open the door to
>> young people about jazz and that they might be interested in finding out
> more,
>> that they might start digging into the past and find the true masters.
>
>Ain't gonna happen. The leap from SNZ to Coltrane/Davis is simply too great
>a leap for people who essentially want to dance.
I don't have any strong opinions on this. Normally, I'd say even if 1%
of these folks discover "real" jazz (I'm not even familiar enough with
this new swing thing to say what might not be "real" about it) as a
result, then I'm all for it. I know I've said that about fusion, and I
know this was pretty much my route into jazz - Spyro Gyra and Maynard
Ferguson (during his "disco" period) were my introductions.
On the other hand, I do hear what you're saying about the dance emphasis
perhaps making it unlikely they'll really get into the music for its own
sake. After all, isn't this precisely how jazz fell out of favor as a
popular music back in the 1940's?
My one experience was doing a gig at a martini bar. I was approached by
some 20-something kid who was presumably into that whole swing scene.
He said h was a jazz fan, and tried making requests, but I had never
even heard of any of the tunes he was requesting. I'm not sure, but
based on the names of the artists he was mentioning, I think some were
new and some were obscure 30's pieces. To him, this *was* pop music,
and yet also jazz, and he was perplexed (and more than a little annoyed)
that I had no idea what he was talking about.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Spewbacca
from a generation with no originality. First, it was the hippies,
then it was 70's disco freaks, then it was grunge, then beatniks, then
punks, then hippies again, then goth metal, and now swingsters. It's
a wholesale expedition for identity that keeps reinventing itself.
But I can say at least this much: it's a helluva lot better than
grunge, disco, and folk music. I just wish they'd figure out that the
bop's where it's at...
John W Gerardi
gato...@yahoo.com (Spewbacca) writes:
>As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more instance of a retro fad
>from a generation with no originality.
I'm guessing that you're a boomer...I am. I just find it funny that we seem to sound more like our parents with each passing year.
They'll...GenX...find their way and they'll eventually figure it out..or maybe not.We don't know everything and sometimes I think we really need as a generation to get over ourselves.Now its their time.
Johnny Noshoes
Spewbacca
done said:
>
>gato...@yahoo.com (Spewbacca) writes:
>>As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more instance of a retro fad
>>from a generation with no originality.
> > I just wish they'd figure out that the bop's where it's at...
>
>I'm guessing that you're a boomer...
I'm 22.
>I am. I just find it funny that we seem to sound more like our parents with each passing year.
My parents listen to classical, but I'm trying to inform them....my
mom's coming around to Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk and Oscar Peterson,
since she plays piano.
>They'll...GenX...find their way and they'll eventually figure it out..or maybe not.We don't know everything and sometimes I think we really need as a generation to get over ourselves.Now its their time.
I just think my generation's an embarassment. All malaise and angst.
Victor Eijkhout
Quoted out of sequence:
> First, it was the hippies,
> then it was 70's disco freaks, then it was grunge, then beatniks, then
> punks, then hippies again, then goth metal, and now swingsters.
And you say:
> As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more instance of a retro fad
> from a generation with no originality.
*A* generation? You've just swept aside the 60s through 90s. That's
at least 2 generations.
You must be very old to have such distorted perspective.
And not a little bit bitter that you never managed to be hip/in/with-it
or whatever it was called in the appropriate time frame....
Spewbacca
<eijk...@prancer.cs.utk.edu> done said:
>gato...@yahoo.com (Spewbacca) writes:
>
>Quoted out of sequence:
>
>> First, it was the hippies,
>> then it was 70's disco freaks, then it was grunge, then beatniks, then
>> punks, then hippies again, then goth metal, and now swingsters.
>
>And you say:
>
>> As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more instance of a retro fad
>> from a generation with no originality.
>
>*A* generation? You've just swept aside the 60s through 90s. That's
>at least 2 generations.
>
>You must be very old to have such distorted perspective.
Hhehe, I guess I should have clarified. All of these that I mention
have occured in the 80-90s as RETRO fads. I wasn't talking about the
hippies in the '60's, but the pseudohippies of that periodically have
resurged in my generation (I'm 22). I wasn't talking about literal
'70s disco freaks, but the short lived revival of bellbottoms and
polyester.
>And not a little bit bitter that you never managed to be hip/in/with-it
>or whatever it was called in the appropriate time frame....
Nope, I'm definately not trendy, but that's not something I'm bitter
about. Just because I listen to and play jazz doesn't mean I'm going
to grow a goatee, smooke, and wear shades all the time; if this swing
craze is really just about the music, then please explain the zoot
suits.
Just another trend, as far as I'm concerned. But at least it's a step
in the right direction.
Jim Callahan
band) in high school (10 years ago). I have been saying since then that
I hoped that big band would eventually make it back into mainstream.
As I remember Harry Connick, Jr. was a crusader with that goal. Well
now that bands like Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, and
Squirrel Nut Zippers are getting their 15 minutes it sort of disturbs
me. I blanch to say that I even enjoy some of their tunes, so maybe I
can't hold the bands responsible for my ailment, but I think
swing/big-band is cheapened by being played on the radio next to such
unmemorables as Bush, Everclear, Matchbox-20, etc.
I will continue to listen to and enjoy "swing" music apart from the
masses. Maybe in the next few years you will hear some Trane, Rollins,
or Davis on the local "alternative" rock station. When that happens I
will either purchase an AK-47 and go "postal", or succumb to the
inevitable and become another mindless lemming, turning a fickle ear to
some great music for a few minutes and then just as quickly dropping it
for the next great thing. Look out America, Mozart's making a comeback.
Jim Callahan
Nils G. Jacobson
higher level of complexity is good, IMHO. Don Byron's last album (not the
one with the controversial airport story) had this effect: it turned
people onto bebop. Maybe the new audience will start listening to Charles
Gayle. Who knows?
-Nils
JimKollens
heard has this heavy back-beat more reminiscent of early rock or jump. I'd
really be interested to hear some tracks by a new group like this that really
does swing.
rc...@netxn.com
working -- horn players, pianists, whatever -- is a good thing.
I've been to the Derby in Hollywood. A very cool scene. Beautiful
people dressed to the nines. The bands there play mostly jump blues, a
la Louis Jordan. It's not bad. It's -- and I'm not being sarcastic --
civilized.
However some of the bands involved in this revival (and I don't count
the Zippers amongst them) are really, really shallow. They're
cartoons, and they know it. They're marketed as such. Check out the
album art. It's hyped up for consumption, but it doesn't have a human,
adult dimension. There's a regular band there (I won't name names)
that really reeks from a musical persective. They're worse than a high
school stage band, but they look great in pin-striped double-breasted
suits and two-tone wing-tips. So they got the job. This is Hollywood
we're talking about.
The thing that's missing from today's nouveau swing is the thing that
made swing classic and memorable: great, indentifiable soloists like
Lester Young, Buck Clayton, Johnny Hodges, Hawk, etc., etc. I wonder
sometimes how the crowd would react if Scott Hamilton were to solo
with one of these bands. I think the effect would be: "woooshhhhh!!!!"
None of these new swing bands excels in ballads, either, which is sure
sign of callowness and superficiality.
BTW, it's nothing new to deride the followers of this fad. No less
than Arty Shaw himself called the original bobby-soxers "morons."
Still, it's not something to be dismissed out of hand. I still hope my
Grappelli/Reinhardt band gets to play the Derby someday. It'd be a
thrill. And I don't mind playing for dancers. It really cranks me up
to see a sea of people working it. I play a lot harder.
Richard Chon
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:35:31 GMT, gato...@yahoo.com (Spewbacca)
wrote:
>As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more instance of a retro fad
>from a generation with no originality. First, it was the hippies,
>then it was 70's disco freaks, then it was grunge, then beatniks, then
>punks, then hippies again, then goth metal, and now swingsters. It's
>a wholesale expedition for identity that keeps reinventing itself.
>But I can say at least this much: it's a helluva lot better than
>grunge, disco, and folk music. I just wish they'd figure out that the
Joe Castleman
>On 18 Aug 1998 13:19:32 -0400, Victor Eijkhout
><eijk...@prancer.cs.utk.edu> done said:
>>*A* generation? You've just swept aside the 60s through 90s. That's
>>at least 2 generations.
>>
>>You must be very old to have such distorted perspective.
>
>Hhehe, I guess I should have clarified. All of these that I mention
>have occured in the 80-90s as RETRO fads.
I knew what you meant here, up until the "beatniks" reference. Did I miss
out on the beatnik revival? You're not talking about the Washington
Squares, are you? One band does not a revival make.
Jus' wonderin...
--
Joe Castleman Gyrofrog Communications
(Remove "ANTISPAM" to reply) (http://www.eden.com/~jcastle)
Austin, Texas U.S.A.
Paul Blackwell
Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller or the Duke, but any music that takes a 20 yr old
(with the influx of crap in music out there), and gets them to swing and possibly
listening to the greats is fine by me.
tst...@businessobjects.com
Victor Eijkhout <eijk...@prancer.cs.utk.edu> wrote:
> zapb...@aol.com (Zapbailey) writes:
>
> > It's nice to know that in twenty years people of my generation might
> > know and appreciate swing as a living thing and not museum music under
glass,
>
> terms 'retro' is even used with pride.
What does "FSVO" stand for?
- Tom Storer
"WYS, SSM." - TM
tst...@businessobjects.com
rc...@netxn.com wrote:
> [SNIP]> The thing that's missing from today's nouveau swing is the thing that
> made swing classic and memorable: great, indentifiable soloists like
> Lester Young, Buck Clayton, Johnny Hodges, Hawk, etc., etc. I wonder
> sometimes how the crowd would react if Scott Hamilton were to solo
> with one of these bands. I think the effect would be: "woooshhhhh!!!!"
"Woooshhhhh"????
- Tom Storer
"When you're swinging, swing some more." - Thelonious Monk
Howard Peirce
> Has anyone heard any of these new groups that really swings? Everything I've
> heard has this heavy back-beat more reminiscent of early rock or jump. I'd
> really be interested to hear some tracks by a new group like this that really
> does swing.
Well, there's a band here in Cincy called Rich Uncle Skeleton that knows how
to swing--they do Ellington and Basie alongside the Louis Jordan/Prima stuff, as
well as a killer version of Dizzy's Ool-Ya-Koo that the dancers eat up (so much
for "you can't dance to bebop"). And they seem to be working 2-3 nights a week
locally, which ain't bad.
On the other hand, there's a sh*tload of bad blues bands, dressing up and giving
themselves some psuedo-hip double-entendre name, and playing the same sorry
blues and calling it swing.
I feel encouraged when I see the kids digging music I can get behind. Then I see
some sorry-ass band getting the same reaction, and I realize: _they can't tell
the difference_.
HP
Spewbacca
Castleman) done said:
>gato...@nonspam-yahoo.com (Spewbacca) wrote:
>>On 18 Aug 1998 13:19:32 -0400, Victor Eijkhout
>><eijk...@prancer.cs.utk.edu> done said:
>>>*A* generation? You've just swept aside the 60s through 90s. That's
>>>at least 2 generations.
>>>
>>>You must be very old to have such distorted perspective.
>>
>>Hhehe, I guess I should have clarified. All of these that I mention
>>have occured in the 80-90s as RETRO fads.
>
>I knew what you meant here, up until the "beatniks" reference. Did I miss
>out on the beatnik revival? You're not talking about the Washington
>Squares, are you? One band does not a revival make.
Perhaps this was just in my locale, but I'm referring to a rash of
angst-ridden, black-clad, poetry-reading, cigarette-smoking youngsters
who were too young to get into real bars, so they basically lived in
coffee houses. Lasted all of about six months.
D Royko
9/22
Ed Hall-Profoundly Blue
Bechet- Runnin' Wild
G. Lewis-GL & the NO Stompers
VA-BN Swingtets
VA-BN Jazzmen
The two VA sets are what intrigue me most. Hopefully they will cover the stuff
Mosaic did years ago that was LP-only, such as the Morton/Hamilton Swingtets
and the Pete Johnson/Hines/Bunn sessions (the Mosaic
Hall/JPJohnson/DeParis/Dickenson, Bechet, and G. Lewis sets did come out as
Mosaic CD sets). Anyone have any more info on these?
6/6
Compl BN Herbie Hancock 60s sessions (6 CDs), includes (according to ICE) prev
unissued takes of Blind Man Blind Man, Riot, Prisoner, Mimosa, Goodbye to
Childhood, Firewater. Also, "Don't Even Go There," supposedly the most
successful track from a rejected session that was HH's first foray into R&B, w/
S. Turrentine and Eric Gale, from 7/19/66. (According to the BN discography,
this is the session that also has Pepper Adams, Julian Priester, Melvin Lastie,
Billy Butler, Bob Cranshaw, Bernard Purdie, and this track must be one of those
listed in the disco as "untitled.")
Dave Royko
Marc Sabatella
>Perhaps this was just in my locale, but I'm referring to a rash of
>angst-ridden, black-clad, poetry-reading, cigarette-smoking youngsters
>who were too young to get into real bars, so they basically lived in
>coffee houses. Lasted all of about six months.
Really? In places I have lived, this started in the mid-80's and is
still going on today. In the mid-80's we called them "angst bunnies";
then I started hearing "DIB's" (dress in black) and "goth". I don't
particularly associate this phenomenon with the beatniks, although I
guess I can see that to some extent.
Tom Waters
: Well, there's a band here in Cincy called Rich Uncle Skeleton that knows how
: to swing--they do Ellington and Basie alongside the Louis Jordan/Prima stuff, as
: well as a killer version of Dizzy's Ool-Ya-Koo that the dancers eat up (so much
: for "you can't dance to bebop"). And they seem to be working 2-3 nights a week
: locally, which ain't bad.
I have two things to say about fads, one thing about the "swing revival,"
and one about the Squirrel Nut Zippers.
First, the problem with fads is not the motivation of the people who
follow them. There is not really a large group of defective people out
there who fit the caricature of depraved fad-seekers. Instead there are
people who are looking for an alternative to what is from their point of
view the established world of music, which includes both dreck like the
Spice Girls and meritorious but (to them) no longer exciting like
Everclear. For a moment, and generally only for a moment, the Big Bad
Voodoo Daddies appears to represent that alternative. What we cognoscenti
know as the genuinely good music is not even on the horizon. So the
problem with fads is not the goals and desires of the followers, which are
the same as ours, but with the use that the culture industry makes of
those goals and desires.
Second, fads are perfectly capable of bearing good music. There was once a
fad for the music of Duke Ellington -- though not on the national scale we
expect from our fads nowadays. For this reason, I hope that actual swing
music, as opposed to jump blues, does become the burden of a fad. Perhaps
Howard Pierce's youngsters from Cincinnati will make it happen, although
if I were them I would concentrate on Basie revivalism and leave out both
Ellington and Prima.
On the "swing revival": let us be the first to adopt the correct term for
this phenomenon, and let us spread the correct term as far as possible. It
is "jump blues revival."
On the Squirrel Nut Zippers: The music that they play is not part of the
jump blues revival, although there is obviously a connection. They play
some sort of old-timey pop music, and in my opinion, they play it quite
well.
Tom
--
Thomas Waters
twa...@usit.net
1021 East Oak Hill Avenue, Knoxville TN 37917
Dig And Be Dug In Return
Howard Peirce
> Perhaps this was just in my locale, but I'm referring to a rash of
> angst-ridden, black-clad, poetry-reading, cigarette-smoking youngsters
> who were too young to get into real bars, so they basically lived in
> coffee houses. Lasted all of about six months.
I don't know if that's a trend, per se. I went through a neo-beatnik phase
myself at one point--reading Kerouac and Ferlinghetti seemed to go right along
with listening to Parker. And the original Beats were just angst-ridden
youngsters sitting around reading Fitzgerald and Stein and Hemingway. Just
last week a bunch of kids showed up at the club reading Jack Cassidy and
sharing manuscripts.
I think every generation produces it's angst-ridden youngsters seeking solace
in the yesterday's outcasts. Seein' as how digging jazz is part of the
neo-beatnik scene, and love for the music often survives late-adolescent
angst, I'd say it's a good thing, too.
HP
rc...@netxn.com
RC
JimKollens
< "...he was perplexed (and more than a little annoyed) that I had no idea what
he was talking about."
This is just great, isn't it? Music business executives dream up names to
market their stuff and everything gets all mixed up. First we had Smooth
"Jazz" and now this. At least when fusion surfaced, they gave it a distinct
name so there was no confusion. But then again, we live in a rock and roll
world now - - a world that generally could give a damn about jazz.
Dcrickert
>world now - - a world that generally could give a damn about jazz.
Unless they figure out a way to market it so that it is palatable to teenagers.
This swing craze won't last too much longer-can we expect a be-bop revival
next?
David
Nick Naffin
Unlikely - well, as long as it fits a soundbyte ... maybe some 'cool' jazz
songs will be recycled some time soon. Levi's and Chet's 'My Funny Valentine.' But
then there's always bhangra, and the 'Real World' catalogue to be raided.
NN
--
_________________________________________________
Nick Naffin
acoustic guitarist
Toronto, Canada
http://www.interlog.com/~takenote/nicknaffin.htm
_________________________________________________
SwingDoug
the concert, they darkened the house and blasted a CD
of The Far East Suite for the crowd to enjoy. They later
told the folks it was Ellington. A few crowd members
held up lighters and yelled "Duuuuuuuuuuke Ruuuuuuuuules!"
Gotta love that.
I like the idea of dancing coming back. Not the crazy shit
from clubs, but a man and a woman dancing together.
The new LCJO hall will have a dance floor in it and
I know they're wanting to write new music to be danced
to. I think it could be cool. A lot of young kids are figuring
out how to dance to stuff like Phish and those Dead-ish
bands who play odd time signatures. I played for a little
swing dancers night in FLorida last month, and the kids
danced and grooved to Monk as well as Ellington. They
even dug waltzing to Coltrane's "Spiritual"
tkf...@worldnet.att.net
Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago. This
is just another money making tool for marketers. If these swing bands
were trying to educate people about what happened 60 yrs ago it might be
a little easier to swallow. But while the record companies are gobbling
up these 'neo-swing' bands, there are quite a number of real musicians
out there bustin' their asses tryin' to make a buck(literally) who are
playing music that is inventive, original AND listenable!!! As serious
musicians, we shoulden't even be wasting our time with this unswinging
bullshit!!
David Mulliss
> all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago. This
> is just another money making tool for marketers. If these swing bands
> were trying to educate people about what happened 60 yrs ago it might be
> a little easier to swallow. But while the record companies are gobbling
> up these 'neo-swing' bands, there are quite a number of real musicians
> out there bustin' their asses tryin' to make a buck(literally) who are
> musicians, we shoulden't even be wasting our time with this unswinging
> bullshit!
That's exactly the case. The sound they're making isn't like any of the
bands they are pretending to represent. Thrash and punk don't go with the
'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands like Benny Goodman's, the
Dorseys, Artie Shaw's, Charlie Barnet's, etc. etc.)
Somehow these new punk weirdos should give themselves a new name, so
innocent people who like the Swing Bands don't get mixed up with that crap.
That's why someone suggested "Fling Bands".
David Mulliss (please reply to acel...@flexi.net.au)
http://www.davidmulliss.com.au/mypages.htm
jnilsen
# SwingDoug wrote:
# Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
# all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago.
Thwap goes the clue stick. Five years ago these bands were playing the
exct same thing they are now. The members of Big Bad Voodoo Daddy were all
studio musicians in LA before joining the band. Their first album was
released in 1992. Cherry Poppin' Daddies have been around for 10 years.
Royal Crown Revue released their first album in the early 90's. Shut
your precoceievced shit about these bands all playing grunge five years
ago.
# This is just another money making tool for marketers.
Yeah, boo hoo, some hard working musicians are making money playing music
they like and it's not me, so thy are no talent hacks that are just pawns
of the music industry marketers. The bands are not jumping on the
bandwagon, it's the record companies doing so. Don't slag the musicians
until you get a clue.
If these swing bands
# were trying to educate people about what happened 60 yrs ago it might be
# a little easier to swallow.
Then you'd just be complaining about them like everyone here disses on
Wynton. They are just guys playing the music that they like. They've been
doing it for years and just happens that now they can make money doing so.
But while the record companies are gobbling
# up these 'neo-swing' bands, there are quite a number of real musicians
# out there bustin' their asses tryin' to make a buck(literally) who are
# playing music that is inventive, original AND listenable!!! As serious
# musicians, we shoulden't even be wasting our time with this unswinging
# bullshit!!
Well, where were all those record companies up until now? These bands were
out there busting their asses tryin' to make a buck (literally). Most of
the Brian Setzer Orchestras gigs were going to be cancelled due to low
pre-ticket sales. The only reason they still happened was because Brian
told the managment that he would personally pay the mmembers of the band
from his own pocket to have the show go on. The 'neo-swing' is inventive,
original and listenable. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining that these
bands aren't playing real swing, or real jump blues, 'cause it's got too
much of a backbeat to it.
sheesh
--
jon
jnilsen
# That's exactly the case. The sound they're making isn't like any of the
# bands they are pretending to represent.
Thwap goes the clue stick. They're not pretending to represent any bands
of the past. They recognize the influence those bands had on them as
musicians. They also recognize the influence of other styles of music
that have happened since then. Scotty Moore has stated that they are
influenced ads much by the decendants as they are by Count Basie.
Thrash and punk don't go with the
# 'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands like Benny Goodman's, the
# Dorseys, Artie Shaw's, Charlie Barnet's, etc. etc.)
No but it goes well with the 'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands
like Big Bad Voodoo DAddy, and Royal Crown Revue, and the Brian Setzer
Orchestra, etc. etc.
# Somehow these new punk weirdos should give themselves a new name, so
# innocent people who like the Swing Bands don't get mixed up with that crap.
# That's why someone suggested "Fling Bands".
Punk weirdos, definitely not a person who knows what actual punk is. And
the name didn't come from the bands. It came from the dancers, who like to
swing dance and wanted blive bands to dance to, and who can appreciate
change in music.
# David Mulliss (please reply to acel...@flexi.net.au)
# http://www.davidmulliss.com.au/mypages.htm
--
jon
Kurt Nordwell P500
>
> on 25 Aug 1998 17:29:00 GMT tkf...@worldnet.att.net utilized the mandibles to disperse:
> # SwingDoug wrote:
>
> # Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
> # all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago.
>
> Thwap goes the clue stick. Five years ago these bands were playing the
> exct same thing they are now.
For someone so eager to play arrogant, you might need to get your facts in
order. I am 99% positive that the members of SNZ were in "alternative" bands
before forming SNZ. I have no problem with them doing this, nor do I question
their motivations. They like what they are playing, and they are making a
living at it. However, they were not making a living with music trying the
alternative scene. Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. I just
won't expouse the same amount of arrogance that you did. Ah hell, twwwwack!.
Peace,
Kurt
tkf...@worldnet.att.net
>
> on 26 Aug 1998 01:44:08 GMT David Mulliss (check....@internet.com) utilized the mandibles to disperse:
>
> # That's exactly the case. The sound they're making isn't like any of the
> # bands they are pretending to represent.
>
> Thwap goes the clue stick. They're not pretending to represent any bands
> of the past. They recognize the influence those bands had on them as
> musicians. They also recognize the influence of other styles of music
> that have happened since then. Scotty Moore has stated that they are
> influenced ads much by the decendants as they are by Count Basie.
>
Its nice to see that you're so open-minded about this. BUT, these guys
are NOT doing anything new or original. And the fact that someone can
put Basie in the same sentence as the Descendants when talking about
influences means that that person dosen't have a freakin clue as to what
they are talking about! They're just making money. They coulden't even
tell you the difference between Basie and Goodman.
>
Thrash and punk don't go with the
> # 'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands like Benny Goodman's, the
> # Dorseys, Artie Shaw's, Charlie Barnet's, etc. etc.)
>
> No but it goes well with the 'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands
> like Big Bad Voodoo DAddy, and Royal Crown Revue, and the Brian Setzer
> Orchestra, etc. etc.
>
Thats because, as I have said, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, etc. are not
actually Jazz/Swing musicians. They have not spent much time listening
to what was done with the swing bands- past and present- because when
you listen to them you can hear (if you know what to listen for) that
they barley know what their doing.
>
# Somehow these new punk weirdos should give themselves a new name, so
> # innocent people who like the Swing Bands don't get mixed up with that crap.
> # That's why someone suggested "Fling Bands".
>
> Punk weirdos, definitely not a person who knows what actual punk is. And
> the name didn't come from the bands. It came from the dancers, who like to
> swing dance and wanted blive bands to dance to, and who can appreciate
> change in music.
>
Look, these bands and the people that support them keep saying that they
are not trying to rehash the past. But the dancers dress up like what
they think people dressed up like back in the '40's and the bands don't
have the musical knowledge to either recreate the past or take it to a
new level. Like most of the music that we hear getting popular acclaim
today, there is absolutley nothing happning in it. The main thing is
that they are definately NOT swingin'!! Setzer's band is ok 'cause he is
actually playing more like rockabilly then swing and he makes no
pretensions of being a swing band. There is also one band out there that
I do like. Their called 'Big Sandy and his Fly Right Boys.' They are
actually more western swing and they do swing. As for the bands that
everyone is talking about, they have nothing to offer the music world
accept to help perpetuate this icessant need for the public to look
backward instead of foreward and the racord companies and related
buisnesses and media to profit from it. Sorry man, that stuff really is
un-hep and un-swingin'.
John Mulvey
> These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago.
Uhmm... I think I was paying attention and I don't recall a single grunge
band with a horn section. If anything, this trend evolved out of the ska
revival that's been going on for quite a while now among the youngsters.
I'm fascinated by the evolution from hardcore punk to ska to this new
"swing" hybrid. I wouldn't claim it's as good as the Basie band in '37,
but I don't think any of these kids would either.
Let's see... who's more pathetic?
1. Kids having fun with a reconstituted (but perhaps a little misguided)
form of big band dance music;
OR
2. Crusty old jazz snobs who can't stand the idea that young people are
treating their HOLY JAZZ MUSIC like it was meant to be ENJOYED.
John.
tkf...@worldnet.att.net
>
> on 25 Aug 1998 17:29:00 GMT tkf...@worldnet.att.net utilized the mandibles to disperse:
> # SwingDoug wrote:
>
> # Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
> # all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago.
>
> Thwap goes the clue stick. Five years ago these bands were playing the
> studio musicians in LA before joining the band. Their first album was
> released in 1992. Cherry Poppin' Daddies have been around for 10 years.
> Royal Crown Revue released their first album in the early 90's. Shut
> ago.
>
You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
the table(musically speaking). Now, I personally think Wynton is lame
too. He does educate, but he dosent know his jazz history as well as he
thinks he does. Secondly, he is a good trumpeter, but not a very good
jazz musician. Now, back to the 'swing' bands. My biggest gripe about
this is that while these guys go out half-assin' the music that they
play, there are people playing 'swing' music who get no press and are
actually good. I am not one of them by-the-way. But if people want to
swing dance and listen to new, young bands playing swing music, then
they should demand that the bands actually swing! Otherwise, i see this
to be a money-backed craze with no substance.
Chris DuPre
I had encountered some Royal Crown Revue and found them fairly innocuous
fun. When their new "Contender" CD showed up, and I popped it right in.
Without exception, the songs are all weak retreads of very limited
range. The drummer is either doing a weak Krupa imitation or is locked
into a straight rock 4 that doesn't swing at all. The singer is
laughable -- flat, strained. The horn lines are halfway interesting; the
bari player appears the best musician of the bunch.
And they're so pretentious, actually thinking their "Dick Tracy"-extra
style signifies, oh, something.
Setzer, at least, can play his guitar and his arrangements are halfway
decent. Plus he doesn't take himself half as seriously as these younger
mugs.
mike...@juno.com
musicfest. I'm not very familiar with their recorded stuff, but I went with
a friend who was. He told me after the concert that all of the solos were
almost exactly the same as the ones on their CD's. The solos sound pretty
good to me, to be fair, but if all of neo-swing lacks the real spirit and
creativity of jazz, then maybe they're doing a disservice to jazz. Is any of
this true of other swing groups like Royal Crown Revue?
In article <35E2BA...@worldnet.att.net>,
tkf...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> SwingDoug wrote:
> >
> > A friend of mine saw Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and to open
> > the concert, they darkened the house and blasted a CD
> > of The Far East Suite for the crowd to enjoy. They later
> > told the folks it was Ellington. A few crowd members
> > held up lighters and yelled "Duuuuuuuuuuke Ruuuuuuuuules!"
> > Gotta love that.
> >
> > I like the idea of dancing coming back. Not the crazy shit
> > from clubs, but a man and a woman dancing together.
> > The new LCJO hall will have a dance floor in it and
> > I know they're wanting to write new music to be danced
> > to. I think it could be cool. A lot of young kids are figuring
> > out how to dance to stuff like Phish and those Dead-ish
> > bands who play odd time signatures. I played for a little
> > swing dancers night in FLorida last month, and the kids
> > danced and grooved to Monk as well as Ellington. They
> > even dug waltzing to Coltrane's "Spiritual"
>
> Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
> all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago. This
> is just another money making tool for marketers. If these swing bands
> were trying to educate people about what happened 60 yrs ago it might be
> a little easier to swallow. But while the record companies are gobbling
> up these 'neo-swing' bands, there are quite a number of real musicians
> out there bustin' their asses tryin' to make a buck(literally) who are
> playing music that is inventive, original AND listenable!!! As serious
> musicians, we shoulden't even be wasting our time with this unswinging
> bullshit!!
Howard Peirce
> Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
> all.
I don't know what the situation is where you live, and if you're talking
about the big-name bands, I agree with you about the nature and quality of
the music.
However, here in Cincinnati, there is at least one band, made up entirely
of very good jazz musicians (many come from PsychoAcoustic Orchestra, which
you may have heard of), that's getting a lot of work--even working a
"territory" that includes Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Dayton, Columbus, etc.
Is it a lot of show biz? Yeah, but Duke, Dizzy, and others have always been
able to have show biz without compromising the music.
I'm noticing a much younger crowd at straightahead venues--the dive where I
play is planning to book jazz 2 nights a week now instead of 1. We've been
getting offers to play places that don't otherwise book jazz at all. The
new swing has already put some extra money in my pocket, and all without
playing a single 3-chord jump/shuffle/boogie.
Maybe the situation here in town is unique--maybe in the bigger cities the
market is saturated with post-grunge rockers in fedoras, and in the smaller
cities there's no market to exploit. I don't know. But I have every reason
to be optimistic.
HP
jnilsen
# For someone so eager to play arrogant, you might need to get your facts in
# order. I am 99% positive that the members of SNZ were in "alternative" bands
# before forming SNZ.
Well, the banjo player/female vocalist was never in a band before SNZ.
She learned the trade by playing with her boyfriend. As for the horns,
how many alt/grunge bands can you think of that have horns in them? THe
other question is how long ago was SNZ formed? This latest release is
their third album.
I have no problem with them doing this, nor do I question
# their motivations. They like what they are playing, and they are making a
# living at it. However, they were not making a living with music trying the
# alternative scene. Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. I just
# won't expouse the same amount of arrogance that you did. Ah hell, twwwwack!.
That's thwak:) And these posts slamming the musicians coming from people
who have absolutely no clue about the scene, nor where it comes from
deserves some arrogance.
# Peace,
# Kurt
--
jon
jnilsen
# You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
# bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
# to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
# as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
# the table(musically speaking).
IYHO. These bands are playing music that strays from what came before. Is
the music swing? Is it Jump Blues? Is it Punk? Is it Rockabilly? No to all
the above. Does it contain aspects of all the above? Yes. To me combining
different forms of music into a cohesive whole that works, is doing
something original and brings something to the table (musically speaking).
You may wish to remain isolated in a little world where only certain
types of music are good and worthy of listening to. But knowing what it is
that the public wants to hear can help one figure out what to play that
will then be heard. Dismissing these bands out of hand, as is the cause
du jour, furthers nothing.
Now, I personally think Wynton is lame
# too. He does educate, but he dosent know his jazz history as well as he
# thinks he does. Secondly, he is a good trumpeter, but not a very good
# jazz musician. Now, back to the 'swing' bands. My biggest gripe about
# this is that while these guys go out half-assin' the music that they
# play, there are people playing 'swing' music who get no press and are
# actually good.
What makes you claim that they go out half-assin' the music that they
play? Is it because they don't sound like swing bands? They just play
music that is influenced by the swing music.
I am not one of them by-the-way. But if people want to
# swing dance and listen to new, young bands playing swing music, then
# they should demand that the bands actually swing! Otherwise, i see this
# to be a money-backed craze with no substance.
Well since the craze has been around a lot longer than the money-backing,
I think that you've lost your leg to stand on.
--
jon
jnilsen
# jnilsen wrote:
# > Thwap goes the clue stick. They're not pretending to represent any bands
# > of the past. They recognize the influence those bands had on them as
# > musicians. They also recognize the influence of other styles of music
# > that have happened since then. Scotty Moore has stated that they are
# > influenced ads much by the decendants as they are by Count Basie.
# >
# Its nice to see that you're so open-minded about this. BUT, these guys
# are NOT doing anything new or original. And the fact that someone can
# put Basie in the same sentence as the Descendants when talking about
# influences means that that person dosen't have a freakin clue as to what
# they are talking about! They're just making money. They coulden't even
# tell you the difference between Basie and Goodman.
They're just making money? So many people here seem to think that these
bands saw that there was this big swing craze, decided to start a band to
rake in the dough. These bands have been around from before there was the
money in it. They released their independent albums and slugged across the
state playing gigs, scraping by like so many other musicians. THey just
got a break and the style of music that they chose to play because they
enjoyed happened to hit big recently.
And nice to see that you are so open minded about this, to tell someone
that they are not allowed to listen to diverse and different types of
music and allow all that they hear to influence what and how they play.
# > No but it goes well with the 'swank' (style and musicianship) of bands
# > like Big Bad Voodoo DAddy, and Royal Crown Revue, and the Brian Setzer
# > Orchestra, etc. etc.
# Thats because, as I have said, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, etc. are not
# actually Jazz/Swing musicians. They have not spent much time listening
# to what was done with the swing bands- past and present- because when
# you listen to them you can hear (if you know what to listen for) that
# they barley know what their doing.
How can you claim to know what they have listened to? You can claim that
they barely know what they are doing, by believing that they are trying to
do what Basie and Goodman et al. did, which is not the case. Maybe they
have listened to lots of swing bands- past and present- and taken from
them what they wanted and blended it with what they have taken from
listening to lots of punk and lots of rock and lots of ska.
# > Punk weirdos, definitely not a person who knows what actual punk is. And
# > the name didn't come from the bands. It came from the dancers, who like to
# > swing dance and wanted blive bands to dance to, and who can appreciate
# > change in music.
# Look, these bands and the people that support them keep saying that they
# are not trying to rehash the past. But the dancers dress up like what
# they think people dressed up like back in the '40's
Are they trying to dress exactly like they did in the 40's? or is their
being influenced by the dress of the 40's and combining it with what has
happened since what you are taking as them 'dressing up like what they
think people dressed up like?'
and the bands don't
# have the musical knowledge to either recreate the past or take it to a
# new level.
They are obviously not trying to recreate the past. They are trying to
take the past and do something different with it. Which is what they are
doing. Do you know the musical background of any of these musician to be
able to make the claim that they don't have the musical knowledge to take
it to a new level? Are they completely incapable of gaining such
knowledge if they continue to play and create music?
Like most of the music that we hear getting popular acclaim
# today, there is absolutley nothing happning in it. The main thing is
# that they are definately NOT swingin'!! Setzer's band is ok 'cause he is
# actually playing more like rockabilly then swing and he makes no
# pretensions of being a swing band.
Brian Setzer is playing Rockabilly. The other bands are playing more more
rockabilly than straight swing (excepting CPD, who are more ska/punk, and
SNZ). Most of the bands didn't start out with pretensions of being a swing
band. They just played music that they liked that had many diverse
influences, swing being one of them.
There is also one band out there that
# I do like. Their called 'Big Sandy and his Fly Right Boys.' They are
# actually more western swing and they do swing. As for the bands that
# everyone is talking about, they have nothing to offer the music world
# accept to help perpetuate this icessant need for the public to look
# backward instead of foreward and the racord companies and related
# buisnesses and media to profit from it. Sorry man, that stuff really is
# un-hep and un-swingin'.
They have as much to offer, if not more, as any other popular form of
music. If you wish to discount all popular music as not real music and
with nothing to offer the music wrold, then so be it.
--
jon
B.B. Bean
acts I've heard."
Fair enough. I'm not a big fan I won't insiste you buy a single BBVD CD or
attend a single CPD concert. But in the meantime, how about cuttin some slack
to the honest to god musicians and fans who enjoy the stuff you call crap.
BBB
On 26 Aug 1998 18:53:43 GMT, tkf...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
>bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
>to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
>as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
>the table(musically speaking). Now, I personally think Wynton is lame
>too. He does educate, but he dosent know his jazz history as well as he
>thinks he does. Secondly, he is a good trumpeter, but not a very good
>jazz musician. Now, back to the 'swing' bands. My biggest gripe about
>this is that while these guys go out half-assin' the music that they
>play, there are people playing 'swing' music who get no press and are
>actually good. I am not one of them by-the-way. But if people want to
>swing dance and listen to new, young bands playing swing music, then
>they should demand that the bands actually swing! Otherwise, i see this
>to be a money-backed craze with no substance.
-
B.B. Bean - Have horn, will travel bbb...@beancotton.com
Peach Orchard, MO http://www.beancotton.com/bbbean.shtml
Joe Giardullo
It is not, and can never be, the rhythm of our time.
And the world is not flat, and never was, flat.
Joe Giardullo
gc...@bellatlantic.net
>
> This swing craze won't last too much longer-can we expect a be-bop revival
> next?
Well the Rangers won the cup in my lifetime...so heres to hoping...<vbg>
--
-Phil
PhilMar Products Inc.
Website - http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gclip/
Brian Rost
blues bands. Many local blues bands started playing more jump blues a
few years back and when the swing dances started popping up, a lot of
these bands got hired. In fact one blues band I work in started offering
swing dance lessons prior to our Wednesday night gigs and have since
increased attendance a lot, we even have high school kids coming in the
door.
To me, it's a good thing. Grousing about SNZ or BBVD is no different
than people complaining about the Blues Brothers. Sure they are not as
good as the "real thing" but their role in increasing awareness of swing
music is to be applauded.
--
Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com
*********************************************************************
Playing the bass is like dancing the limbo: how low can you go?
*********************************************************************
Kurt Nordwell P500
>
>
> You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
> bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
> to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
> as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
> the table(musically speaking).
FYI - The folks I know here in NC who absolutely love the SNZ take absolutely
nothing from the music. They will not migrate to the outer reaches of
Coltrane. For them, this is fun music, not serious music. It's a fad.
I'd give it about another year. Disco has never really come back; I'd
say it's next.
Also, the best place/crowd to introduce jazz to is without a doubt the
neo-hippies. I am still waiting for Phish to tour with Pharoah Sanders.
Peace,
Kurt
Marc Sabatella
>Disco has never really come back; I'd
>say it's next.
Sure it has come back - it's been reasonably popular for at least
the past few years.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Kurt Nordwell P500
>
> In article <35E571...@ihadtodothis.nospam>, Kurt Nordwell P500 <so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> wrote:
>
> >Disco has never really come back; I'd
> >say it's next.
>
> Sure it has come back - it's been reasonably popular for at least
> the past few years.
>
You got to remember that I live in NC, and sometimes things
get here a little slower. Just kidding to all my rmb friends...
I was refering more to bands playing disco. Is there even such
a thing? Who are the SNZ of the new disco revival?
Peace,
Kurt
Marc Sabatella
>I was refering more to bands playing disco. Is there even such
>a thing? Who are the SNZ of the new disco revival?
On the national front? Couldn't tell you; I don't follow the pop scene.
Here in Colorado there are definitely 70's cover bands that do a bunch
of disco. But I was thinking as much about the resurgence of interest
in the old recordings & even styles as anything else.
John Gunter
Wasn't it H.L. Mencken who said a puritan was someone who
always worried that someone somewhere was having a good time?
That's what some of these grousers about whether this new
stuff is "real" swing or whether the dancing kids appreciate
the '37 Basie band the way we do (translation: are as hip as
we are) remind me of. Talk about lame!
I play trumpet in two Dallas area big bands, you know, weddings,
country clubs, etc. These bands have 17 pieces and everyone is a
good player. We have always played charts from the Basie, Rich,
Herman, Kenton, Goodman, etal. books, as well as some newer stuff,
and we try hard to play them well. Our ages range from mid 20s to
mid 60s (I'm 58) and we've always enjoyed playing together.
Recently we've began playing in venues where younger dancers want a
lot of up tunes and we've responded joyfully. It's fun to play
for a floor full of dancing and cheering kids! Lot more fun than fox
trots, waltzes, polkas, etc. at the country club. Last week we
played in a local dance hall for a crowd of kids who had showed up
to actually take swing dance (jitterbug, lindy hop) lessons first
and then dance to our music. Thay had a ball and we did too. I don't
see anything wrong with that. I also don't think it's required that
the dancers know who Green was; I know our guitar player does and
tries real hard to play like him on Basie charts, and I think
that's important.
I don't have any problem in separating enjoyment of playing or
dancing to any music and serious scholarly discussions about
various aspects of American popular music. I wish others in
this newsgroup would do the same more frequently. For the
record, I wrote a dissertation on the sociology of jazz
musicians, and can generally hold my own in serious discussions
about music and musicians. I also have been known to dance to
a range of sounds with lots of different partners - even by
myself sometimes (mostly during the chemical '60s). My
message to the nitpickers: make a distinction between
popular enjoyment by dancers and non-musicians and
specialized scholarship and discussion by critics and
musicians. In short, lighten up.
Now, if we can just get those dancing kids to request a
ballad now and then so we can rest a little. (That's a joke
for the brass players, most of whom know it takes more
chops to play a ballad line well than blow through a
jump chorus.)
Trumpet players by definition are sorta cocky, and I
generally wear asbestos, so flame away! Me, I'm gonna
keep on playing "swing" for the kids and having a good
time and probably work more too.
Later,
John Gunter
Ashley Capps
<so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> wrote:
> tkf...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
> > bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
> > to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
> > as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
> > the table(musically speaking).
>
> FYI - The folks I know here in NC who absolutely love the SNZ take absolutely
> nothing from the music. They will not migrate to the outer reaches of
> Coltrane. For them, this is fun music, not serious music. It's a fad.
> I'd give it about another year. Disco has never really come back; I'd
> say it's next.
In all fairness, Kurt, just how many fans of Count Basie, Frank Sinatra,
Nat King Cole, Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway, Glenn Miller, and so on have
migrated to the outer reaches of Coltrane? And just what is wrong with "fun
music" anyway? I think for many people that's one of the things music is
supposed to be, and that's exactly why the original "swing" and "jump"
music was popular too.
I'm a serious Coltrane fan, but I'm not afraid to have a good time either.
And not everyone wants to have their head blown away by a saxophone - it
doesn't make them bad, stupid, or inferior people - they just aren't into
it.
Ashley
jfre...@securitydynamics.com
The swing thing has been around at least since 1988 - when I first saw it. Up
contra-dance is a New England version of square-dancing). In those days it
was a lot of fun. You went to a dance and the first hour they taught you how
to do it and the rest if the night was dancing ( very aerobic BTW)
In those days there were a few groups that played for it ( Widespread
Depression was one I remember) but there was such a lack of bands to play the
stuff that I can remember dancing to contra-dance style bands (
tin-whiste/flute, fiddle, guitar, piano) gamely playing Stomping At the
Savoy. The point was the dancing and the music was a necessary detail. If
there are bands now adays that can fill that need then who gives a Flying
f*** about the details. The point is that people like to dance this stuff and
if the bands generated the swing music they need are warmed over punk bands
- so be it. Its a marked and they serve it.
Jerry Freedman,Jr
Greg Skinner
Kurt Nordwell P500 <so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> wrote:
>a thing? Who are the SNZ of the new disco revival?
Try alt.music.dance. I'm sure the people there will tell you who is doing
the club music of today that is analogous to the disco of the 70s.
--gregbo
gds at best.com
Gregory Monahan
talented folks all over the country who've been plugging away in lounges
for years, and if it serves as a gateway to improvisatory jazz, that is,
motivates just a few of its adherents to listen to other kinds of
music--read: "real" jazz of the kind we all adore here on rmb--then it
will have served a noble purpose.
Greg M.
gmon...@eou.edu
Kurt Nordwell P500
>
> In article <35E571...@ihadtodothis.nospam>, Kurt Nordwell P500
> <so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> wrote:
>
> > tkf...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > You know, I dont care if those bands make billions of dollars. What
> > > bothers me is that there are lots of musicians out there who are trying
> > > to do something original. Most of those swing bands are not original and
> > > as I have said a couple of times already, they dont bring anything to
> > > the table(musically speaking).
> >
> > FYI - The folks I know here in NC who absolutely love the SNZ take absolutely
> > nothing from the music. They will not migrate to the outer reaches of
> > Coltrane. For them, this is fun music, not serious music. It's a fad.
> > I'd give it about another year. Disco has never really come back; I'd
> > say it's next.
>
> In all fairness, Kurt, just how many fans of Count Basie, Frank Sinatra,
> Nat King Cole, Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway, Glenn Miller, and so on have
> migrated to the outer reaches of Coltrane?
You completely missed my point. I agree with the necessity for "fun"
music, be it simple or complex. Hell, I still listen (avidly) to old
Black Sabbath. I was merely disagreeing with the argument that the fans
of new swing will (or will not) migrate to more "serious" jazz. The
point
is mute because most of these folks are in it for a good time and that
is
not a bad thing.
My comment below summarizes how I think "serious" jazz could be
introduced
to a younger generation.
>
> > Also, the best place/crowd to introduce jazz to is without a doubt the
> > neo-hippies. I am still waiting for Phish to tour with Pharoah Sanders.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Kurt
Peace (still),
Kurt
TTTina
<so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> writes:
>My comment below summarizes how I think "serious" jazz could be
>introduced
>to a younger generation.
>
>>
>> > Also, the best place/crowd to introduce jazz to is without a doubt the
>> > neo-hippies. I am still waiting for Phish to tour with Pharoah Sanders.
>> >
>> > Peace,
>> >
>> > Kurt
I think you're absolutely right about this. All of my friends in college (I
graduated in '96) were Jazz fans, and I'd say over 70% of them migrated that
way through Phish, and Medeski Martin and Wood. The only other common factor
I've found in most younger people who like Jazz is that they also like the
Doors, and I don't know if that's relevant or not -- it could be a
weird-local-confused-retro thing...or maybe the Doors are just a default band
to like.
Tina.
Victor Eijkhout
Analogous, but with a difference.
Disco has evolved into dance, house, jungle, trance, godknowswhat.
The new swing craze wears the badge "retro" with pride, and these
swing bands play music that could have been make 40 years ago.
I don't see that in disco.
--
Victor Eijkhout
"I've been to Europe once. I don't have to go again" [House
majority leader Dick "Barney Fag" Armey]
wal...@my-dejanews.com
ttt...@aol.com (TTTina) wrote:
>
>
> I think you're absolutely right about this. All of my friends in college (I
> graduated in '96) were Jazz fans, and I'd say over 70% of them migrated that
> way through Phish, and Medeski Martin and Wood. The only other common factor
> I've found in most younger people who like Jazz is that they also like the
> Doors, and I don't know if that's relevant or not -- it could be a
> weird-local-confused-retro thing...or maybe the Doors are just a default band
> to like.
>
> Tina.
>
There's also the noisy-alternative-rock crowd(who start w/
Black Flag/Throbbing Gristle/Sonic Youth, try Last Exit, then
are introduced to Coltrane by Sonny Sharrock's "Ask the Ages").
Also it seems that Deadheads acquire an appreciation for improvisation.
JFR
Sounds like another fad thing. The people into this will just move onto
the next fad. There is no serious committment to learning about the art
in most cases, but maybe a few will be led to explore something about
the bigger world of jazz. Most of the bands are probably composed of
people who have listened to and played rock/pop oriented stuff all their
life, and probably swing like stale cheese. But, who knows, exceptions
may exist.
John R>
Stimpson
newsgroup is overpowering!!!! The problem with jazz snobs is that they just
can't stomach the idea of teenagers listening to swing; they somehow think
that they are the few with the advanced faculties to listen to and groove to
swing.
Personally, I don't like any of the new swing bands, but I definitely
think that they deserve their props for reviving this great music. Besides,
if it turns a handful of of young people onto classic swing artists and
helps introduce them the the wonderful world of jazz, then I heartily
applaud each and every one of these bands. I overheard some of these
"grunge" kids discussing Cab Calloway and "Minnie The Moocher" today; how
bad is that?
How ironic it is that a fan of music which requires an open mind and a
willingness to accept new musical ideas would close his mind to something
just cos the kids listen to it. Jazz snobs are just as bad as those who
swear by their love for generic radio garbage; a closed mind is a closed
mind no matter what the preference is.
jnilsen wrote in message <6s17bc$hhs$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>...
>on 25 Aug 1998 17:29:00 GMT tkf...@worldnet.att.net utilized the mandibles
to disperse:
># SwingDoug wrote:
>
># Unfortunately, this new 'swing' craze isn't helping jazz musicians at
># all. These jump/swing bands were all playing grunge five years ago.
>
>Thwap goes the clue stick. Five years ago these bands were playing the
>exct same thing they are now. The members of Big Bad Voodoo Daddy were all
>studio musicians in LA before joining the band. Their first album was
>released in 1992. Cherry Poppin' Daddies have been around for 10 years.
>Royal Crown Revue released their first album in the early 90's. Shut
>your precoceievced shit about these bands all playing grunge five years
>ago.
>
># This is just another money making tool for marketers.
>
>Yeah, boo hoo, some hard working musicians are making money playing music
>they like and it's not me, so thy are no talent hacks that are just pawns
>of the music industry marketers. The bands are not jumping on the
>bandwagon, it's the record companies doing so. Don't slag the musicians
>until you get a clue.
>
>If these swing bands
># were trying to educate people about what happened 60 yrs ago it might be
># a little easier to swallow.
>
>Then you'd just be complaining about them like everyone here disses on
>Wynton. They are just guys playing the music that they like. They've been
>doing it for years and just happens that now they can make money doing so.
>
>But while the record companies are gobbling
Larry Grogan
for the "new swing" is a long series of excuses and rationalizations. i.e.
'the music sucks, BUT....... It doesn't seem at all likely that the
nosering generation is accidentally stepping in 'real' jazz (or real swing
for that matter) and is inclined to do anything more advanced than scrape
it off of their shoes onto the sidewalk. The problems are:
1) The stuff isn't 'swing', it's mostly jump blues and various mediocre
bastardizations of rockabilly and blues. That hum you hear in the
background on these records is the sound of Count Basie, Fletcher Henderson
et al spinning in their graves.
2) I don't care how long the Cherry Poppin' Daddies (or whoever) have been
making records. Old crap is still crap. Just because a generation in search
of another disposable fad has latched onto their music (thereby keeping the
vintage clothing shops open for another year) doesn't mean it's any good.
3) "The music gets people dancing". Big Deal. So do hot coals.
4) "People that don't like the 'swing revival' are against people having
fun". No, as a matter of fact, I'm not. I just don't like people handing me
chicken shit and calling it chicken salad.
Hi Dee Hi Dee Hooooooooo
LG
Stimpson <stim...@total.net> wrote in article
<35ecc...@news.total.net>...
Kurt Nordwell P500
>
> 4) "People that don't like the 'swing revival' are against people having
> fun". No, as a matter of fact, I'm not. I just don't like people handing me
> chicken shit and calling it chicken salad.
My girlfriend asked me last night if I had any jazz like Kenny G...
Categories are a funny thing, aren't they?
Peace,
Kurt
Jake
Ted Williams
--
Ted Williams
Santa Clara, CA
88 Milano Verde 3.0
Saxophonist, Improvised Music SJSU
http://www.music.sjsu.edu/IMS/welcome.HTM
Gregory Monahan
Distribution:
Picky, picky. improvisatory music then.
Ted Williams (te...@etalk.com) wrote:
: Is there such a thing as non-improvisatory jazz? Ted
Tom Waters
: The point is that people like to dance this stuff and
: if the bands generated the swing music they need are warmed over punk bands
: - so be it. Its a marked and they serve it.
In a way I think that this is more damning than all of the puritanical
stuff we've been reading. These kids aren't a market -- they're human
beings with desires the same as us old fart jazz afficionadoes. They have
a desire to dance and also -- very much like us -- a desire to find
musical pleasures that haven't already been taken over and rationalized by
the market. Of course the market is one stop ahead of them and has already
colonized both the pretty good and the pretty mediocre musical experiences
to be found in the Jump Blues Revival -- but that's a tragedy and not at
all what free human beings deserve. And the market is one step ahead of us
too, you know.
Tom
--
Thomas Waters
twa...@usit.net
1021 East Oak Hill Avenue, Knoxville TN 37917
Dig And Be Dug In Return