Knife handle and glycerin questions
Dave K
handles, so I thought I'd give it a try. As I'm going through the
process on a number of knifes, several questions and observations came
up. By the way, when I asked at one store for glycerin all they
showed me were suppositories! Gave me a chuckle. But I ended up with
a bottle of the stuff they sell as a skin protectant.
1. Splotchiness on bone: At least after the first application, some
of the bone handles look (for lack of a better term) splotchy. As if
the glycerin soaked in in some places and not others. Visually, small
areas look lighter, whereas the coloring was uniform before (to the
best of my recollection). More noticable on smooth handles or smooth
portions (like the edge) of jigged handles. Any ideas on what might
be causing this?
2. Black penn pearl: The glycerin seems to make most pearl handles
(including abalone) look nicer. But I have a Schatt & Morgan senator
(2002) with what AG Russell called black penn pearl. It's definitely
not the same as black lip; this is actually a very dark brown, and
much more opaque than other types of pearl that I've seen. After
applying the glycerin, the surface definitely looked duller on the
penn pearl. Any thoughts on why this type of pearl doesn't seem to
react so well to glycerin, and more importantly, what I should do
about it?
3. Wood: Is glycerin good for wood handles in general?
4. Celluloid: Is there any long term recommended
maintenance/treatment for celluloid?
5. This one does not involve glycerin, but I've been wondering for
some time now: What is 2nd cut stag? Specifically, what does "2nd
cut" refer to? All I've noticed is that it seems to look more like
bone than "regular" stag.
Thanks for any insight you can give on these questions.
Dave
Chas
>.....By the way, when I asked at one store for glycerin all they
> showed me were suppositories! Gave me a chuckle. But I ended up with
> a bottle of the stuff they sell as a skin protectant.
A pharmacy should have 'U.S.P. Glycerin' in bottles.
> 1. Splotchiness on bone: At least after the first application, some
> of the bone handles look (for lack of a better term) splotchy.
Bone is a variable material- when it ages, it will splotch also (or crack).
The color will fade as the glycerin sinks in. That's one of the reasons why
a new patina can take a year to 'regulate'.
> 2. Black penn pearl: The glycerin seems to make most pearl handles
> (including abalone) look nicer. But I have a Schatt & Morgan senator
> (2002) with what AG Russell called black penn pearl.
Hard to say what 'black penn pearl' is.
The chatoyancy in MOP is caused by trapped liquid between layers of
material- the glycerin fills that out and causes more 'fire'. If the
material is not a firey material in the first place, glycerin isn't going to
do anything but the restorative aspects.
> 3. Wood: Is glycerin good for wood handles in general?
I don't use it for that-
I'm more of a 'wax' finish kinda guy. I don't like what oils do to most wood
for most applications (hand using).
> 4. Celluloid: Is there any long term recommended
> maintenance/treatment for celluloid?
Glycerin is good for most 'natural' materials, including real celluloid.
Again, use it sparingly on dense materials- it takes time to settle in, and
repeated applications are better than 'dunking'. The opposite is true with
chatoyant materials- dunking MOP is usually beneficial for it- same with
ivory, less true with bone/antler/horn.
> 5. This one does not involve glycerin, but I've been wondering for
> some time now: What is 2nd cut stag? Specifically, what does "2nd
> cut" refer to? All I've noticed is that it seems to look more like
> bone than "regular" stag.
'Rough cut' or 'bark' is the surface, 'second-cut' is the interior; they
slice it into slabs.
Chas
laocmo
is what I found:
Ivory, stag, shinbone, horn, antler and mother-of-pearl respond well
to being treated with pharmaceutical glycerin. It will restore the
chatoyance (varying in color when seen in different lights or from
different angles) of mop, the greasiness of ivory, and strengthen stag
and bone; wonderful stuff. It is the restorative used in most museums
for that purpose. You can dunk it or apply it. It doesn't do anything
to steel or other materials. It may make leather a bit sleazy, like on
antique swords or whatever with pads and spacers.
Larry
El Capitan
Dave K <dlk34...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've read some recent and past posts about using glycerin on knife
> handles, so I thought I'd give it a try. As I'm going through the
> process on a number of knifes, several questions and observations came
> up. By the way, when I asked at one store for glycerin all they
> showed me were suppositories! Gave me a chuckle. But I ended up with
> a bottle of the stuff they sell as a skin protectant.
>
>
> Thanks for any insight you can give on these questions.
>
> Dave
>
I've found glycerin in craft stores. They sell it for candy makers
looking to add gloss to their chocolates. Don't have a bottle handy at
the moment to tell me if it's USP grade glycerin, but it's sold for
human consummption, so it's probably good enough for knife handles.
I seem to recall paying $2 or so for a 4 oz. bottle.
EC
ObCaution... Remember kiddies... making nitroglycerine is not like
whipping up cake batter. Ice baths are mandatory due to the exothermic
reaction. Your Homeowner's Insurance agent will appreciate your concern!
Dave K
<chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>A pharmacy should have 'U.S.P. Glycerin' in bottles.
>
I think that's what I got -- it says "Glycerin USP" on the 4 oz.
bottle. It's about the consistency of 90 wt oil. Just seems to be
marketed as a skin protectant. Other than the suppositories, and the
candy application EC mentioned, I wonder what glycerin is usually used
for?
>
>Bone is a variable material- when it ages, it will splotch also (or crack).
>The color will fade as the glycerin sinks in. That's one of the reasons why
>a new patina can take a year to 'regulate'.
>
OK, I'll be patient... ;-)
>
>Glycerin is good for most 'natural' materials, including real celluloid.
>
What exactly is "real celluloid"?
>Again, use it sparingly on dense materials- it takes time to settle in, and
>repeated applications are better than 'dunking'. The opposite is true with
>chatoyant materials- dunking MOP is usually beneficial for it- same with
>ivory, less true with bone/antler/horn.
>
I forgot to mention, on one mammoth ivory knife it looks like the
glycerin revealed a defect, or at least a feature: Seems like it got
into a fissure, made it visible (now brown, was white) and actually
pushed some material up -- I had to polish it to get rid of a 1/2"
ragged booger. (Not complaining, just relating observations.)
Thanks a lot for the info, Chas. Thanks also to Larry and EC for
their input.
Dave
El Capitan
Dave K <dlk34...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:46:27 -0700, "Chas"
> <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >A pharmacy should have 'U.S.P. Glycerin' in bottles.
> >
>
> I think that's what I got -- it says "Glycerin USP" on the 4 oz.
> bottle. It's about the consistency of 90 wt oil. Just seems to be
> marketed as a skin protectant. Other than the suppositories, and the
> candy application EC mentioned, I wonder what glycerin is usually used
> for?
>
I've used it in chemlab applications, mostly for lubing up glass tubing
& pipettes that need to be forced through rubber stoppers.
OTOH, there's 1001 uses for the stuff. Check it out..
http://www.cleaning101.com/oleo/whygly2.html
EC
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>it's sold for
>human consummption, so it's probably good enough for knife handles.
You planning to eat them ?
I wouldn't use glycerine. It looks nice, but it's not long-term
stable. There's a risk of it oxidising and losing the shine and
transparency. It doesn't dry either, so it offers no real protection
against future dirt. There are plenty of oils and waxes I'd go for
long before glycerine.
But experiment anyway.
--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.
J Craggs
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.
Could be a good place to doss down if I ever
manage to get away from the Mobius Strip Club. (Lousy
show incidentally, all surface and no substance ;-)
Gyppo
John Craggs - Writer - Adult Tutor - Storyteller
and All-Round Rogue
Need a laugh? Then subscribe to the free Monday Silly Digest:
mail to: gyp...@ntlworld.com With 'MSD SUB' as subject.
Chas
>....I wonder what glycerin is usually used
> for?
'wetting'- my chemistry is going to fail me very quickly, but glycerine is
'heavy water'- that is to say H2O with an extra molecule which makes it
'penetrate' and 'stay'. It will carry a lot of other essences so it's a base
for a lot of compounds.
> What exactly is "real celluloid"?
Actually based on cellulose rather than plastic.
> I forgot to mention, on one mammoth ivory knife it looks like the
> glycerin revealed a defect, or at least a feature: Seems like it got
> into a fissure, made it visible (now brown, was white) and actually
> pushed some material up -- I had to polish it to get rid of a 1/2"
> ragged booger. (Not complaining, just relating observations.)
It probably swelled some polishing compound that had worked down into a
crack; some sort of filler that is now coming to the surface.
I tend to fill such things with pure beeswax- that seems to stabilize them.
I don't generally put on any other sort of finish afterwards except surface
wax; burnishing and rub-in.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
> > for?
Some use it for hand lotion. :)
The others are just a type of friggin liquid soap. :/
I think of glycerin as a cross between sugar and alcohol. :)
(classed as an alcohol, react it with acid and it forms an ester)
CH2-O-H
|
CH-O-H
|
CH2-O-H
Glycerin treated with nitric (and sulfuric) acid and you get an
ester (tri-ester in this case)...
CH2-O-NO2
|
CH-O-NO2 ----> 6 N2 + 12 CO2 + 10 H2O + 1 O2
|
CH2-O-NO2
Tri-nitro-glycerin is oxidizing when it explodes and nitro-cellulose
(gun cotton, fully nitrated celluloid plastic) is reducing when it
explodes. I prefer the single based rifle powers that don't include
nitro-glycerin for my rifles. :)
See? You could have mono- di- or tri- nitro glycerin tho'.
Also you could have mono- di- or tri- glycerides if you add
"fatty acids" instead of nitric acid.
Lard is mostly tri-glycerides.
Glycerin is basic to life and dynamite. ;)
Alvin in AZ
ps- if you can correct or expand on that go for it! :)
pps- i taught myself organic chemistry so it's prob'ly all f%#&ed up
Dave K
Sorry for the delayed response, just got back in town.
Wow, thanks for the chemistry lesson! I'm impressed, didn't know I
could get that on rec.knives. Does that mean if acid comes in contact
with my knife handles, they will explode now??? ;-)
Thanks also to Chas and EC for the additional info.
Dave
Dave K
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
>I wouldn't use glycerine. It looks nice, but it's not long-term
>stable. There's a risk of it oxidising and losing the shine and
>transparency. It doesn't dry either, so it offers no real protection
>against future dirt. There are plenty of oils and waxes I'd go for
>long before glycerine.
>
I'm new at this -- could you make some specific recommendations?
Where would one typically would buy them? Also any info or pointers
to help decide which is best for a given handle material would be
great.
Thanks,
Dave
alv...@xx.com
> >stable. There's a risk of it oxidising and losing the shine and
> >transparency. It doesn't dry either, so it offers no real protection
> >against future dirt. There are plenty of oils and waxes I'd go for
> >long before glycerine.
But Andy, oils evaporate and oxidize too. :/ (wax too, only slower)
> I'm new at this -- could you make some specific recommendations?
> Where would one typically would buy them? Also any info or pointers
> to help decide which is best for a given handle material would be
> great.
> Dave
My question is (Chas?) what happens when you put (Renaisance?) wax
on a piece of glycerin soaked stag/bone/ivory? (i can see where
timing would be important)
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> My question is (Chas?) what happens when you put (Renaisance?) wax
> on a piece of glycerin soaked stag/bone/ivory? (i can see where
> timing would be important)
A lot of preservation issues require a long time for one process to 'settle
in' before proceeding to the next step. A glycerin process followed by
Renaissance Wax is one I use all the time on appropriate materials.
Glycerin penetrates and settles well in materials like bone, ivory, horn,
antler, hoof, feathers, primitive tannages of hides and skins (application
is everything)- let stuff sit for a week or so, maybe apply the glycerin
twice or more-
I tend to burnish the surface, 'fill' with good beeswax and light heat, then
apply a few coats of RenWax for the flash polish on things like weapons
handles, work handles and so on- works out good.
Chas
zxc
J Craggs <gyp...@NOSPAMPLEASEOLDCHAPntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<mj9tuv45jsfaped7n...@4ax.com>...
Dave K
<chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>A lot of preservation issues require a long time for one process to 'settle
>in' before proceeding to the next step. A glycerin process followed by
>Renaissance Wax is one I use all the time on appropriate materials.
>Glycerin penetrates and settles well in materials like bone, ivory, horn,
>antler, hoof, feathers, primitive tannages of hides and skins (application
>is everything)- let stuff sit for a week or so, maybe apply the glycerin
>twice or more-
>I tend to burnish the surface, 'fill' with good beeswax and light heat, then
>apply a few coats of RenWax for the flash polish on things like weapons
>handles, work handles and so on- works out good.
>
and they had a 1-lb brick of beeswax for candle making -- is that the
right stuff? Do I need to heat it up to soften it or something?
They'd never heard of RenWax...
Can you recommend a book, faq, or website that can help alleviate my
ingorance in this whole general area?
Thanks again,
Dave
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>I'm new at this -- could you make some specific recommendations?
No, just a general one.
Get yourself a tub of Renaissance Wax. It's not too expensive,
although you don't get much in the tub 8-) I understand it's not too
hard to find in the US - in the UK it's really difficult.
This isn't the best wax in every situation, but it's rarely going to
be the _wrong_ thing to use. Most museum curators buff everything in
sight with it, especially metals. The Smithsonian polish aircraft with
it !
Waxes are nice. They're easy to work with, and easy to remove
afterwards. You can also apply and re-apply them quite happily, either
for regular maintenance, or because you've worn the previous coat off.
There are other sorts of finish, but nothing else is so easy to
re-apply as a wax.
Waxes are basically a mechanical process. You put them on, then you
buff them up. A cheap stencil brush is handy, but there are lots of
small stiff-bristled brushes around that you can use. The shine
develops from "plates" within the wax getting aligned by this
mechanical buffing. Most useful waxes are too hard to apply alone, so
they're softened up by dissolving them in turpentine or toluene
beforehand.
Oils do lots of different things, depending on what they are, what you
did to them, and how you apply them.
Some are inert. They just sit there.
Some "cure". This means they undergo some permanent chemical change
that causes them to harden or form a skin in a hopefully useful
manner. Frequently they change colour too.
Some "oxidise". This is a vague term for things that are a bit like
curing, but not in a useful manner. "Going rancid" is an extreme form.
Generally, oils don't cure unless you process them before applying.
Mineral oils stay inert, vegetable oils oxidise. Some veg oils (like
olive) will go rancid and nasty, others (like linseed) just go yellow
and sticky. To get a good curing to a stable film, you have to either
heat them (gentle heating to make them polymerise, which thickens the
oil) or heat them in combination with some chemistry that "primes" the
oil without obviously changing it all that much, so that future
oxidation will be to a well-cured and non-sticky film.
Linseed is basically useless. It was used because it was all there
was. These days, avoid it in favour of tung oil, unless you're doing
reproductions. Tung oil is like linseed, but less so. It cures when
applied on its own, with only a slight tendency to stickiness. The
commercial prepared tung oils (most commercial "finishing oils") are
quick drying, pale and easy to use - much easier than "boiled linseed"
Recently I've been boiling my own linseed oils. This is a thankless,
and largely pointless, task - strictly only for the obsessive
recreater of ancient processes. I know nothing on the subject, bar
what I've learned from Bill Knight & Bill Mendes pamphlet on the
subject, so go read that instead of listening to me witter on. I was
only doing it to make a reproduction lead-dried oilcloth (webbage is
vaguely there, but not really finished yet)
Glycerin and glycols are chemically somewhere between sugars and
alcohols (you can search for the chemisty yourself) and inclined
towards being inert. They don't do much, in fact they don't _do_
anything, that's rather the point. They're an inert filler that you
can use for a volume treatment, usually to displace or replace
something else. Green woodturners are fond of heavy glycols to replace
water in wet timber, as a means of avoiding the timber drying out and
cracking. Glycerine will fill the pores in cleaned bone. But neither
of them really adds anything as a surface treatment and they have no
possibility of any "curing" or surface skin forming. They may also
make it more difficult to have a later finish adhere over them.
If you care about this stuff, try a woodworker's handbook on
finishing. Flexner is quite a good start, but some of the 19th century
(or older) texts are useful too.
--
Smert' spamionam
Chas
> Where can I buy RenWax and beeswax? I was at the crafts store today,
> and they had a 1-lb brick of beeswax for candle making -- is that the
> right stuff? Do I need to heat it up to soften it or something?
I use clear candle wax- be sure it's not petroleum based, but the real deal.
> They'd never heard of RenWax...
I pay about $23 for a half pint tin. It's fossilized wax; microcrystalline,
a little goes a long way if you prepare for it.
I use a heat gun to warm up the surface, melt the wax and watch it sink into
the surface- mostly I burnish with a glass hard steel, an agate or
bone/ivory 'slickers'.
> Can you recommend a book, faq, or website that can help alleviate my
> ingorance in this whole general area?
Actually I can't. I've been collecting studio tricks for forty years- mostly
I just know stuff.
Chas
Karl Rove
>> Where can I buy RenWax and beeswax? I was at the crafts store today,
>> and they had a 1-lb brick of beeswax for candle making -- is that the
>> right stuff? Do I need to heat it up to soften it or something?
>
Best Price I found: $18.00 US
http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/product.asp?3=1304
or
http://www3.woodcraft.com/Finishing/woodworking/3235.htm
Instructions for use found at:
http://www.silvercastle.com/htdocs/care_renwax.htm
Another Source, (Same Price):
It goes up from there:
http://www.knifeandgun.com/catalog/renaissance_wax_186700_products.htm
http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/search_result.asp?Category=Renaissance
http://www.silversmithing.com/cutleryspecialties/
http://artisan.safeshopper.com/7/2506.htm?28
http://www.riversidemachine.net/item54145.ctlg
http://www.knifeart.com/renwax65.html
Across the Pond: http://www.flints.co.uk/acatalog/Renaissance_Wax.html
God Bless,
Karl
"Thousands have died for my Freedom, ONE HAS DIED
FOR MY SOUL, I AM ETERNALLYGREATFUL"
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord .. Psalm 33:12
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>Where can I buy RenWax and beeswax?
Renaissance wax. Only one brand name, so try web searching. Many US
woodworker's shops carry it. In the UK, Preservation Equipment or
Conservation by Design have it.
Beeswax is best bought at farmer's markets, from beekeepers. My local
guy sells oz blocks of it, and every so often I go and place an order
for 10lbs or so..... It makes a patch lubricant for blackpowder
shooting.
>a 1-lb brick of beeswax for candle making
Probably the right stuff, but probably also _very_ expensive. Some
"beeswax" in crafts stores is a honey-flavoured blend of waxes.
Waxes (Raw):
Beeswax. Comes out of bees. A "waste" product from honey production,
get close to the source and they're only too happy to shift it. Soft,
low melting point, but chemically fairly stable
Paraffin wax. Made from crude oil, and comes in a range of grades with
varying hardness and melting point. Of fairly limited use. Usual
material for candles. Chemically stable.
Stearin. A hard and opaque wax, used as an additive in candle making.
Very little use for polishes. Cheaper than paraffin wax, so cheap
candles may use a sizable proportion. Sintered candles and tea lights
(made from squashed-together wax powder, rather than casting) are
usually stearin.
Microcrystalline wax. Take paraffin wax and refine it until the
paraffin has gone. The remains are microcrystalline wax. Chemically
very stable. Too hard to use on its own.
Carnauba wax (candelilla is similar). These are hard vegetable waxes.
Unusable alone, but they harden up other mixtures.
Waxes (Prepared):
Simple beeswax polish. Hot melt 1 part beeswax in a double boiler and
add 3 parts turpentine (genuine turpentine, not petroleum spirit based
substitutes). Make at least a pint, because otherwise it's easier
just to buy it (your beekeeper often sells it).
Creamed beeswax. A softer and easily buffed version that's good for
leather. Can leave a residue in the pores of open-grained bone or
wood.
5oz beeswax, melted in the double boiler.
Remove from heat and stir in 1 pint of turpentine in a _large_ vessel.
Mix 1 tablespoon of ammonia with 1 pint of water.
Add the ammoniated water to the wax and stir like buggery.
Pot it while still warm.
Glossy wax polish. Good for polishing wood or bone to a high sheen.
Melt 3 parts beeswax with 1 part carnauba wax.
Remove from heat, stir in 3 parts of turpentine.
Bull wax. Shiny, but hard work.
Mix something like 2-3 parts of beeswax, 1 part of carnuaba and 1 part
of candelilla wax in the double boiler.
Remove from heat, stir in turpentine - about three times as much as
there is wax.
>Do I need to heat it up to soften it or something?
You should usually melt wax to mix it with a carrier like turpentine,
then apply it cold. Hot-applied waxes tend to chill when they hit the
cold surface and not penetrate.
Melt wax carefully with a double boiler, because it can catch fire
otherwise. Alternatively use a controllable electric hotplate
somewhere where you don't mind large hydrocarbon fires (don't use an
exxtinguisher, just put the lid on and switch off the heat)
Grating wax on a cheesegrater, or just by shaving with a knife helps
it melt more quickly.
Waxes (Commercial):
Simple beeswax. Just makes sure that's all that's in it.
Johnson's Paste Wax. A simple softened paraffin wax that's handy for
metals.
Liberon's lubo wax. Cheap wax formulation, diluted to be a liquid.
Dead easy to apply and buff out, barely visible when finished, but
it's a good way to preserve machine tool tables from rusting.
Liberon's Black Bison wood polish. Good finishes for finishing wood,
too hard for everyday polishing. "Clear" is yellowish, "neutral" is
better as a clear wax.
Car polish. Nasty stuff with silicones in it. Avoid like the plague
and don't allow it in the workshop. Any silicone contamination makes
it impossible to do good finishing work in the workshop.
Other refs:
Fine Woodworking #140 - Jan 2000
www.woodfinishsupply.com
www.kremer-pigmente.de
www.goldleaf.net
www.seppleaf.com
Chas
Andy Dingley
<chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Good post- that's a keeper!
Thanks - seemed a shame to waste it in just one group.
Dave K
this thread. Thanks also to Karl for the links and Chas for sharing
decades of experience.
I feel like I have enough info to keep me busy for a while now!
Dave
Keith
..snip..
> I think that's what I got -- it says "Glycerin USP" on the 4 oz.
> bottle. It's about the consistency of 90 wt oil. Just seems to be
> marketed as a skin protectant. Other than the suppositories, and the
> candy application EC mentioned, I wonder what glycerin is usually used
> for?
>
..snip
Well, you can use it as a quenchant for hardening silver steel, according
to my G.P.Wall "Heat treatment Tips" book...
Keith.