Sharpening Stellite??
Chas
In this particular case, I need the finest edge I can generate- what's
happening is that I get to a wire edge and it won't strop off- it is gummy
and just rolls back and forth. By the time I get it off, the edge 'rounds'
and I'm back where I started.
The cutter is already shaped, I work on the scratch wheel to get a good
edge, move to a 320 frit cardboard wheel and then to ZAM on the strop
wheel. I've tried stropping on canvas, leather, glass, arkansas- not having
much luck.
I'm beginning to believe that this may be the wrong metal for what I want
to do (skiving knife for book-cover weight leathers), but I haven't seen a
carbon steel blade that holds the edge either. This blade was a high speed
cutter for 'belting' material (Gates Co.) and is a perfect 'shape' for what
I'm doing (with the other eight hours of shaping I did; Dog Nose that's
'hard' stuff <g>).
Please e-mail me if you don't want to waste bandwidth on a specialty
question.
--
Chas
"There is no bad weather, only bad clothing"
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/amm.html (Kuntao Silat videos)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cuecase.htm (Fine Cases and Accessories)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cane.html (Combat Cane for Cripples)
MAF
news:3B559767...@home.com...
> The cutter is already shaped, I work on the scratch wheel to get a good
> edge, move to a 320 frit cardboard wheel and then to ZAM on the strop
> wheel. I've tried stropping on canvas, leather, glass, arkansas- not
having
> much luck.
To reduce the burr, use less pressure when grinding/sharpening. Given the
claims on the stellite web page, I would have imagine a decent sharpening
job to take one heck of a long time. For steel (and despite different
makeup, I would imagine stellite would behave the same), stropping is not
how I remove a burr. I don't strop until the burr is all but unnoticable.
All forms of sharpening will both remove steel (or whatever) and reshape the
steel to some degree. A stone does more grinding and in theory as little
bending as possible, while a sharpening "steel" is the opposite- made mostly
to bend the edge back into place, with minimal removal of stock.
Stropping, on leather, cardboard, or any material suited for such, is at the
bottom of the grinding spectrum, and can doo a lot of bending, which makes
it an inefficient way to remove that burr. For stropping, I use cardboard
(back of notebook, roughness has a little selection even) because it
actually has a pretty abrasive texture, and is harder than leather. Glass
might not be a good idea, depending on the piece being used. If it's like a
piece of window glass, it may be hard but not abrasive at all, which you
need to remove the burr. You want _some bending_, but not a lot as the burr
is not really sharp.
I START with a 325 diamond sharpener for most regular sharpening, and then
use a ceramic sharpener or other finer stone, and then stropping. The
diamond sharpener is actually smoother in its old age, and if I stroke very
lightly I can go directly to stropping. Since the metal you are using is so
tough to work, I would possibly start out with a lower grit (to speed things
up and avoid being tempted to put too much pressure on it, but not much
lower and you probably already have a good bevel), and use at least two
other steps of grinding to get a good edge before even thinking about
stropping. Remember low pressure all the way.
A _really_ good, shave your legs and gut a mosquito, hand sharpening job
takes me about 10 minutes (though it varies greatly, and I never aim for
speed) for a good size folding knife, and they claim stellite to be I think
4 times longer lasting than steel. A simple guess would be that a
near-perfect sharpening job (starting from a previously sharpened, but well
worn edge) could take 40 minutes.
MAF
MAF
> 'hard' stuff <g>).
One more thing...
How big is this piece in question? I would normally guess that I could
grind almost any piece of steel into what I want in generally no more than
two hours, and assuming you do the same the x4 comes back again (though this
is completely unscientific, but who cares).
I was going to ask how long you took to sharpen it, but since you never got
it to the desired condition there pretty much is no answer to that.
MAF
Cliff Stamp
[sharpening Stellite]
> I get to a wire edge and it won't strop off- it is gummy and just rolls
> back and forth. By the time I get it off, the edge 'rounds' and I'm back
> where I started.
Stellite has the worst combination of properties for burr formation. It is
soft and weak so it deforms readily and at the same time has a very heavy
hard carbide content so it resists getting cleanly cut, especially by soft
abrasives like AO.
If a burr is formed it will be difficult to remove. The best results I had
with sharpening the cobalt superalloys (Talonite, Stellite 6K, forged Cobalt
6B, cast Cobalt 6B) were with DMT abrasives. The 1200 grit one will leave a
very fine finish. To improve on that you can try a light stropping on
leather loaded with CrO, or better yet, 3M's micro abrasives, CrO on a Mylar
backing for a more regular surface and a cleaner finish.
To prevent a burr from forming the diamond hones must be clean and light
pressure much be used. Alternating strokes are necessary as well. When you
switch to the CrO, providing a burr has not formed you should be able to
polish the edge without weakening it.
> I'm beginning to believe that this may be the wrong metal for what I want
> to do (skiving knife for book-cover weight leathers), but I haven't seen a
> carbon steel blade that holds the edge either.
Try CPM-10V with a deep cryo, tempered to around 64 RC, contact Phil Wilson
seam...@bigplanet.com.
Note if the Stellite you have is 6B is may be impossible to get it to form a
crisp edge as that is really soft, about 35 RC or so and will just deform
readily at the micron level.
--
Cliff Stamp
sst...@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
bl...@nospam.net
I've had good luck with sharpening both Stellite and Talonite on fine
ceramics like the ones offered by Spyderco in their bench stones or
Sharpmaker.
Hope that helps,
Blues
Blues
Live Free Or Die
Chas
Jeffry Johnston
For me stainless steel knives sharpen the same way.
A bunch of soft crap that the final burr needs a very delicate touch
to remove or your edge is messed up. :/ It drives me nuts. :)
What bothers me so much is I can't help but think about ...
"if it's so stinkin' delicate, what good is it?"
Stainless seems especially junky after getting used to sharpening
hard steel (63hrc and up).
Alvin in AZ (i guess, in a bitchy mood too:)
Brian W Edginton
wrote:
Yeah, mate.....and a bloody luddite, too :)
There are those among us who aren't so hung up on "tradition" and
like the idea of a decent knife that doesn't demand our full-time
attention in order to stop corrosion from destroying the bloody thing.
Ok....doesn't take a lot of work....but some of us are too busy doing
other stuff like raising families and keeping our cars on the road.
Let's be a bit less condescending to people who have lives away from
their workshops, eh ?
Really, for the occasional user, stainless steel of a modern formula
makes a damned good blade. Knives are "tools", aren't they? Not
objects of worship........well, apart from a couple of really nice
ones :)
Rant mode off!
brianWE
I suppose hindsight is ok....but, really, who
needs to see their arse all that often?
MAF
news:9j87dp$828$2...@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net...
> <snipped some might fine instuctions on how to sharpen stellite>
>
> For me stainless steel knives sharpen the same way.
> A bunch of soft crap that the final burr needs a very delicate touch
> to remove or your edge is messed up. :/ It drives me nuts. :)
I find that ATS34 is pretty good. It's one of the most non-stainless of the
stainless steels. If hardened properly, it sharpens much easier than aus8
or g2 or any of that stuff.
MAF
Jeffry Johnston
: If hardened properly, it sharpens much easier than aus8
: or g2 or any of that stuff.
: MAF
I gotta have something to make fun of, don't I? :)
I have one knife of ATS34 and the consenses is that it was the best
stainless steel knife that they ever used to butcher with. Not all that
good, but certainly the best stainless knife blade. That knife blade was
made by Bob Engnath and heat and cold treated by Paul Bos.
(It's a Kitchen #2 for those with a catolog :)
Bob E was going to make me a whole set of K.#2s using different steels. :(
A CPM-10V was in the works. :(
Non knife makers look at a knife different than I do.
Heck I don't look at them the same way most makers do.
Maybe it's because I knew knives before I read the first knife magazine.
I can't really blame them tho bragging about stainless the way they do,
after all what did they have to compare stainless to? Carbon steel knives
that wasn't heat treated to -any- where near what it was capable of!
Let alone cold treated carbon steel. Heck they were comparing special
furnace, special atmosphere, heat treated and cold treated stainless
(cutco is!) to plain old blacksmith type heat treating and quick drawn
carbon steel.
If stainless is so good, and tool steel is so bad, with it's rusting and
all, why don't you buy and use stainless steel hacksaw, jigsaw blades and
drill bits? :)
I'm not into cars... all cars are alike if they all get you where you
want to go, right? :) That's what I hear when guys defend stainless as
being able to hold an edge.
I'm into high carbon steel metallurgy as it pertains to "edge holding and
edge taking" knives. I wouldn't make a pimple on a real metallurgist ass.
I'm subscribed to the metallurgy newsgroup and I know that's true, and at
the same time, I see most of them just know steel from what they learned
in school.
I'm no more interested in Car & Driver? magazine than my girl friend is.
I fix my old pickup and it's never left me stranded once since I bought
it new in '74, it's a '75 model year. It's kinda like a Kabar. :)
Someday I'll prob'ly buy the car equivilent of a stainless steel Kabar.
But I ain't into cars. This news group is about knives, so I talk race
cars or even better motocross bikes. :)
How about a homemade motorcycle/dune buggy? :)
I made a knife from a broken, nicholson, high speed steel, power hacksaw
blade, in 1979 that has a really cool handle and a stupid looking blade
that will skin a whole cow like it means business. I didn't heat treat
it, just ground it thin along one side and glued a handle on it. The gal
that I gave it too wouldn't trade it for 100 knives stainless or not! :)
She skins and butchers her own chickens, cows and hogs with it. Her
husband and all his brothers and their kids all wanted one that would
take and hold an edge just like it, after using it. Before using it
forget it. ;)
The point is... it holds an edge and it sharpens like a dream.
None of that stinkin being careful with a "delicate" edge crap.
They had their fill of that.
To me that's what a knife is about.
Not about mother of pearl inlays and caring that it won't rust more than
whether it's a good tool. Sometimes looks is important, like in the
office or something.
The edge, can it take one and can it hold on to it after the use you want
to put it to? You know a knife, as opposed to a work of art. What do you
have to compare it to? A factory made Old Hickory that's had the temper
drawn so far that it's softer than a friggin ATS-34 knife blade? The Old
Hickory is junk too. Thick and soft. It can be fixed with a reheat-
treatment and quite abit of careful grinding.
Stainless is not only bad at taking and holding an edge -compared- to many
other cheaper and easier to heat-treat-yourself steels, but while a tool
steel knife is doing this knife thing of cutting good it's stronger than
the stainless knife too. :/
Ok so you like your new mini-van/SAK?
I'm talking about specialized race cars/tool steel knives.
I've learned a thing or two and every once in a while (back when I had a
subscription) a knife maker would actually acknowlegde that a hard edged
blade would cut better than a soft edged blade. Glory be. That's what I
fiNgured out along time ago and I ain't in the business. One of the first
things I learned about knives. Later, one of the first things I read,
when studing tool steel metallurgy was the need for hardness. When a tool
steel is tempered it isn't done to soften it. Softening it, is the last
thing a tool maker wants. It just happens most of the time while
strengthing it. Bob Loveless said he made knives to sell so he used
ATS-34 (it was good enough for the buyers) he made knives for himself
(and friends that knew better) he used tool steel, his favorite was A2.
If you are of like mind (prob'ly ain't :) then right away after just a
little study of steels made for use by industry to cut stuff with (tool
steels), you'll see that all the wrought "stainless steels" are not the
edge holders and edge takers the tool steels are. That's why none of
the wrought stainless steels are included in the list of tool steels
(used by industy to cut stuff :).
The question is, do you even care? :)
Alvin
ps- this post is so long you'll be calling me VT Jr.! :)
MAF
> Bob E was going to make me a whole set of K.#2s using different steels. :(
> A CPM-10V was in the works. :(
Still seems like yesterday. But then again, so do threads like "knives and
humanity (or something like that)," the gardening/eating tips of MPS, harley
harley, etc. I wonder who here still has a benchmade r.k 97.
> Non knife makers look at a knife different than I do.
> Heck I don't look at them the same way most makers do.
Remember the guy that said someone in a cooking group told him that
stainless knives couldn't be sharpened by most users because they were too
hard?
> furnace, special atmosphere, heat treated and cold treated stainless
> (cutco is!)
With an advanced alloy like that, they'd have to!
> I'm into high carbon steel metallurgy as it pertains to "edge holding and
> edge taking" knives. I wouldn't make a pimple on a real metallurgist ass.
> I'm subscribed to the metallurgy newsgroup and I know that's true, and at
> the same time, I see most of them just know steel from what they learned
> in school.
Too bad most of the very few production knives made with carbon steel are
1095. Not that 1095 is particularly bad, but I would rather have something
higher end. I've seen a couple D2 knives.
> I made a knife from a broken, nicholson, high speed steel, power hacksaw
> blade, in 1979 that has a really cool handle and a stupid looking blade
> that will skin a whole cow like it means business. I didn't heat treat
> it, just ground it thin along one side and glued a handle on it. The gal
> that I gave it too wouldn't trade it for 100 knives stainless or not! :)
> She skins and butchers her own chickens, cows and hogs with it. Her
> husband and all his brothers and their kids all wanted one that would
> take and hold an edge just like it, after using it. Before using it
> forget it. ;)
I think you've told me that one before. :)
> Not about mother of pearl inlays and caring that it won't rust more than
> whether it's a good tool. Sometimes looks is important, like in the
> office or something.
I've never been really big on "natural" handle materials. Some stag handles
are a really nice wood color (the only ones I really like), but I prefer a
more functional material like micarta/g10/carbon fiber. Micarta is the
closest thing to "pretty" that I like, but I really like it (and the others)
for their innovative structure. I've disassembled both benchmade and
emerson knives for cleaning and sanding, and a very thin layer of g10 is
incredibly stiff. I wish I had a scrap piece to see how much it would take
to break it, but I have the same problem with the blades of most knives too.
Until I see how much it takes to break it, I can't be sure my knife isn't
going to break under use. ATS34 is said to be brittle, but is it really?
You just don't know until you break one. :)
> Ok so you like your new mini-van/SAK?
> I'm talking about specialized race cars/tool steel knives.
I wish SAK's were available in better steel. Just too soft for tools. It's
more like an emergency tool set. But I find a multitool like a gerber is
better anyway.
> Alvin
> ps- this post is so long you'll be calling me VT Jr.! :)
What the hell happened to him anyway?
Carl.
Andy Dingley
>Anybody got any good tips on sharpening Stellite?
Don't !
It's a pain to work, and unless you really need the ability to hold an
edge at a red heat, then you don't need it.
It's also near impossile to heat treat, without some serious kit.
Roger Blake
"MAF" <n...@here.now> wrote in message
news:KiQ57.222307$lq1.53...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
the
> stainless steels. If hardened properly, it sharpens much easier than aus8
> or g2 or any of that stuff.
>
aus8 which sharpens easily and to keaner edge. Aus8 won't hold an edge as
well, true. I would wager that aus8 would out cut ATS34 initially if all
things were equal.
Chas
> It's a pain to work, and unless you really need the ability to hold an
> edge at a red heat, then you don't need it.
> It's also near impossile to heat treat, without some serious kit.
I think you guys are right. I figured this would be a good skiver because
Gates used it to cut drive belting material at a high speed. I'm just not
getting the performance I want from it.
I think I'm going to try that idea from Cliff Stamp; I need a 1" X
1/16"-1/8" end sharpened blade with a 40 degree angled chisel ground edge-
like he said; Rockwell 64. My present one takes about 3/4" taper to the
edge; real shallow and gradual. I'll put my own scales on it, so it just
needs to be a flat piece of steel (that CPM10V sounds interesting).
--
Chas
"There is no bad weather, only bad clothing"
http://www.geocities.com/stevegartin/ (kuntao silat information)
LAURENCE SEGAL
that a leather worker ordered. send me a diagram and i'll make one.
laurence wwwrhinoknives.com
MAF
> I think you guys are right. I figured this would be a good skiver because
> Gates used it to cut drive belting material at a high speed. I'm just not
> getting the performance I want from it.
Send it to me!
MAF
Jeffry Johnston
: > Alvin
: > ps- this post is so long you'll be calling me VT Jr.! :)
: What the hell happened to him anyway?
: Carl.
He's around and using prodigy now.
I picked on him in a post a week or so ago and wasn't real sure it was
the "other" Vincent T. (Trent?) we have here... I was figuring on having
to back pedal big time since I said VT was "mostly dumb." :)
And here I'm the one that had to look up how to spell -pedal. :/
Alvin
Jeffry Johnston
That's a hard offer to ignore, Chas. :)
When you mentioned 1/16" thick tho first thing I thought of was, offering
you a power hacksaw blade (M2 ~65hrc). I read once that D2 was used for
making razor blades but they didn't say what kind of razor blades. I've
always wondered if it was scalpels they were really talking about.
Alvin in AZ
TN65X57
Do they need to be (can they be) heat treated?
Are they hardened only along the side where the teeth are or all the way?
Full of questions, lacking answers!
Thanx,
LouisB
Vincent Trent
I don't care if you pick on me. Got pretty thick skin most of the time. Just
watch out for my tender underbelly!!!! LOL
--
Vincent Trent
www.vinnysknives.com
Vinny's Knick-Knacks & Knives
"Jeffry Johnston" <jef...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:9jd65q$b82$1...@nnrp1.phx.gblx.net...
Brian W Edginton
<vst...@wctatel.net> wrote:
>
>I don't care if you pick on me. Got pretty thick skin most of the time. Just
>watch out for my tender underbelly!!!! LOL
So, you aren't the VT from a ways back ?
Does make a difference :)
Makes a difference........doesn't make you any less valuable, mate!
Just makes you a different person.
I am sure Alvin will be kinder to you. Nah....not kinder. Not in his
nature....just that that they got off on insulting each other.
Sad, eh?
brianWE
A fool is a person who agrees with himself all
of the time.
Vincent Trent
I was noticing the other night there were some posts by VT on here and was
wondering how long it would be before someone thought we were one and the
same. I am still relatively new to all this. Everyone seems to be pretty
friendly so I'll probably be here for awhile. I don't mind a good verbal
lashing once in awhile, it keeps me on my toes. Have a good weekend.
Brian W Edginton
<vst...@wctatel.net> wrote:
>Brian,
>I was noticing the other night there were some posts by VT on here and was
>wondering how long it would be before someone thought we were one and the
>same. I am still relatively new to all this. Everyone seems to be pretty
>friendly so I'll probably be here for awhile. I don't mind a good verbal
>lashing once in awhile, it keeps me on my toes. Have a good weekend.
No worries, mate......you are doing fine.
Anybody who complains is being mischievous
The "original" VT was a ball of fun and REAL information....like
Alvin. Well, more fun than Alvin and a whole lot less
confusing...after all, (hehe)
Nar...they got off on each other. Sick buggers,.
Anyway, anyone who isn't friendly isn't worth worrying about. This is
a great group. Been here since day #1
Gotta get one of those lives everyone keeps telling me about.
Jeffry Johnston
: Do they need to be (can they be) heat treated?
: Are they hardened only along the side where the teeth are or all the way?
There are different kinds.
All of them I know about have high speed steel for a cutting edge whether
it's all HSS or just welded on along the edge. Hand hacksaw blades are
the same except they also come in an "alloy" steel and plain carbon steel
versions too. The welded on version (bi-metal) has a high carbon steel
(1070?) back that's got a spring temper.
One thing you need to know right away is that HSS can't be heat treated
very easy and drawing the temper below what it came from the factory as
is a long and tricky project. That resistance to softening is a strong
point.
There is two types of all-HSS power hacksaw blades, one is all hard from
the tip of the teeth to the back of the blade with soft ends where the
bolt holes are. The other is hard from the tip of the teeth to about 1/4
of the way toward the edge with a spring like temper the rest of the way
back and can be scratched with a 58hrc knife blade. Some can fool you tho
since they vary as to how hard the "soft" part is.
In the MSC catalog they describe all three kinds made by Starrett.
I've never seen a RedStripe that's all hard, but I've used the GreenStripe
that's a bi-metal type. To make a knife that will take an extra sharp
edge and hold it like magic, the RedStipe will do it, being 63hrc to
65hrc. :)
There are several brands out there and they all seem to have a color of
their own and so... can be recognized who made them etc if there is any
paint left on them. The two that are all hard that I've made knives from
were the cast-iron-grey Nicholson and the two-tone-red Simonds.
Three that come to mind that aren't all-hard (even tho it might say it is
right on the blade!) are the two-tone-blue Sandvic, The copper colored
MolyStar and the silver/aluminum painted Milton and thats the one that
sez "all hard" and ain't. :/
Every time a guy griped that a power hacksaw knife didn't hold an edge it
turned out to be one of the soft backed ones and the maker didn't know it
or didn't care.
Alvin in AZ
Jeffry Johnston
again here. I can't seem to find the original post that I followed up on
tho. :/ First, I don't mean to sound condesending. I guess it sounds
that way tho 'cause I bad mouth (wrought) stainless steel and other guys
love the sorry old stuff ;) so I guess it sounds condesending? :)
Here's a story for you about high speed steel power hacksaw blades
(63-65hrc).
Imagine sawing down through a railroad rail starting with the work
hardened top surface, that's so hard, a new file plus a lot of pressure
will just skate right over it. No kidding.
You take a blade, 6 teeth per inch 1/16"x 1+1/4" x 14" and bolt it to the
machine and put tension on the blade. Then the reciprocating arm is
placed down on the rail head and the thin little power hacksaw blade
forced through the work hardened surface and then saws right down through
the head and into the web of the rail where there are just a few teeth
resting on the work. The saw flies down trough the web then slows down as
it gets to the wide base of the rail.
Cutting a rail is just like cutting down thorugh a cold chisel since they
are made from the same stuff (1075 1077 1078 1080). Most blades would cut
3 rails easy and 4 rails if we weren't in a hurry. Water was used to keep
the rail and blade cool.
Ok, I know I'm a pain in the ass but that doesn't change the facts.
M2 tool steel was formulated to -cut- steel etc.
ATS-34 was formulated for use in jet engines to cut hot air.
Alvin in AZ
ps- the first time I saw an abrasion saw made from a chainsaw I started
collecting used power hacksaw blades for knifemaking (1974 :)
Andy Dingley
>In the MSC catalog they describe all three kinds made by Starrett.
>I've never seen a RedStripe that's all hard,
A friend and I acquired a load of (very) cheap Starrett Red Stripe
blades ($5 each, a few feet long) and tried using them for
knifemaking.
So far it has been a success, but after a _lot_ of effort, and it's
not a great success.
They're M2 steel, pretty hard as standard, and a nightmare to draw the
temper on. We've only taken them from about 62 Rockwell down to 38,
which is still harder than most mass-production knives ! Hardening
afterwards isn't too bad, but we're now just working them in the
hardened state.
Shaping them is easy - we've got a plasma cutter. I wouldn't like to
try it otherwise.
For grinding we're using a hand-held pneumatic belt grinder, and
plenty of belts. Sharpening is on my usual waterstones.
Finished edges are pretty good, and they're resistant to most abuse.
My main kitchen knife is one ( a small, but heavy, usuba) and I
sharpen it no more often than my other knives. Rust resistance is OK,
but not spectacular.
--
Smert' Spamionam
Jeff Santee
I dont know their rockwell hardness but I had a friend whose dad made
one for him and did a great job, and it was a very worthwhile knife, sharp
as hell and seemed to keep an edge. I believe their hardness is pretty
uniform all the way thru. The one my friend had must have come from a
pretty big blade cause it was about an 1.25" wide. After I saw his I wanted
one but never got the chance.
Jeffry Johnston
: A friend and I acquired a load of (very) cheap Starrett Red Stripe
: blades ($5 each, a few feet long) and tried using them for
: knifemaking.
How thick are they new?
I've replaced several pocket knife blades with HSS blades.
: They're M2 steel, pretty hard as standard, and a nightmare to draw the
: temper on. We've only taken them from about 62 Rockwell down to 38,
: which is still harder than most mass-production knives ! Hardening
: afterwards isn't too bad, but we're now just working them in the
: hardened state.
Did you mean 58hrc? If 38hrc then...
What did you do to get them down to 38hrc, draw them at 1300F for a day?
And what equiptment did you use to draw and re-heat treat them?
: Shaping them is easy - we've got a plasma cutter. I wouldn't like to
: try it otherwise.
Grinding the shape out has always been my easiest step.
But I try not to color the steel when I get close to the shape.
The dangged stuff heat-stress cracks real easy when thin.
I leave them full hard.
The knives I've made are mostly used for skinning and butchering.
Why should make a friend a KaBar when he/she can buy a better one? :)
: For grinding we're using a hand-held pneumatic belt grinder, and
: plenty of belts. Sharpening is on my usual waterstones.
I use only stones (i'm poor:) and free hand hollow grind them down
to ~.010" - .012". Then I also have a wet grinder I made that spins
a 10 inch stone at ~225rpm for taking the square edge down to form
a burr from both sides before resorting to a dry SiC stone.
I then pretty much sharpen them flat on the stone so the back edge
of my hollow grinding gets cut flat. They are sharpened alot like
a straight razor and everybody that gets one of mine already knows...
"it ain't no camp knife" :)
: Finished edges are pretty good, and they're resistant to most abuse.
: Smert' Spamionam
What type of blade cross section are you using?
Alvin
Jeffry Johnston
: Full of questions, lacking answers!
: LouisB
I made a slip joint pocket knife once that's still in use for ear
marking and de-horning and nut cuttin". :)
The blade is a 1/16" thick Simonds with a brass nut mashed into the
bolt hole then drilled out to ~1/8" (#31). The back spring was ground
directly from a Bi-metal power hacksaw blade. And the handles were two
1/4" ivory paper micarta (i'll never use that ugly stuff again for a
"working" knife :) The handle shape is a classic "folding hunter" or
"clasp knife" shape and the pins are nickel/silver if I remember right.
No heat treating, just careful grinding, drilling, shaping and sanding.
Alvin in AZ (to dumb to know I can't)
ps- If I post this about 20 more times I'll have caught up with VT and
his stag handled SAK! ;)
Cliff Stamp
> I use only stones (i'm poor:) and free hand hollow grind them down
> to ~.010" - .012".
How do you hollow grind freehand? What kind of time are we talking about
here?
--
Cliff Stamp
sst...@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Roger Blake
> TN65X57 <tn6...@aol.com> writes:
> : Full of questions, lacking answers!
> : LouisB
>
> I made a slip joint pocket knife once that's still in use for ear
> marking and de-horning and nut cuttin". :)
>
> The blade is a 1/16" thick Simonds with a brass nut mashed into the
> bolt hole then drilled out to ~1/8" (#31). The back spring was ground
> directly from a Bi-metal power hacksaw blade. And the handles were two
> 1/4" ivory paper micarta (i'll never use that ugly stuff again for a
> "working" knife :) The handle shape is a classic "folding hunter" or
> "clasp knife" shape and the pins are nickel/silver if I remember right.
>
> No heat treating, just careful grinding, drilling, shaping and sanding.
>
Jeffry Johnston
: Cliff Stamp
4 to 8 hours to shape and hollow grind just a bare blade, not including
sharpening etc.
: How do you hollow grind freehand?
Well I sure as heck couldn't do it with a doo-dad! :/
Every doo-dad I made didn't work. :)
No- rest! Just you and the blade and the stone and the water.
I just posted to the metalworking NG about setting up a grind stone. :)
It's all in setting up and dressing the stone so there is -minimum-
vibration so you can feel the groove in the blade. The first few passes
are important to get straight and about the right distance from the edge.
There's one trick I figured out to straighten up a mess.
Good thing I figured it out or I woulda quit trying to hollow grind. :)
Angle the blade at 45 degrees take a pass, then angle it 45 degrees the
other way and take another pass, then one pass at the usuall 90 degrees...
how does it look to you now? ;)
I used to make fun of Bob E. for standing while grinding, I sit on a
plastic 5 gallon bucket with my forearms on my thighs. Hi-tek s@%t
going on here. :) The homemade grinder is a heavy cast iron 1/3 horse
motor I found in an abandond gas station pump. (the guy had been there
for years, squatting between the east and west freeways when the govt
finally noticed and ran him and his military theme park, resturant and
gas station out of there :) I use the coursest (20 grit) 10"x 1"x 1"
I could get and it spins at ~1800rpm.
The main thing to get used to is placing the blade back on the stone just
where you want it. Since... the blade needs to be dipped in water every
pass. I use a tall 1qt plastic brake fluid bottle with the top cut off
and put a pinch of laundry soap in the water.
Everytime I get back into making knives I have to go through a painful
bit of burning my fingers until they toughen up to the task.
Grinding out a tip with a curve to it is what separates the men from
the boys! :) Someday I'll go up and learn how. ;)
Alvin in AZ (too dumb to know I couldn't, so did it anyway)
Jeffry Johnston
: > The blade is a 1/16" thick Simonds with a brass nut mashed into the
: > bolt hole then drilled out to ~1/8" (#31).
Doggonit... I'm loosing my mind, I could of swore it was a #31 drill bit
but after double checking it's supposed to be a #30. 1/8" hole is too
tight to pivot nicely on a 1/8" rod. I always drill with the fractional
bit (cobalt hss) then ream with the next size up numbered bit (regular
hss).
: > No heat treating, just careful grinding, drilling, shaping and sanding.
: How do drill a hole in hardened metal?
On that knife I didn't have to. I used the (9/32"?) bolt hole after
mashing the (10-32?) brass nut into it with a vice which filled it with
brass then I reamed the center out with the right size drill for the pin
I wanted to use. On the smaller HSS blades for stockmen knives I take
advantage of the softer ends that can be drilled and then filed to shape.
For me since I don't have a drill press (and it wouldn't fix it anyhow I
bet) I drill the hole first then shape the tang around it. A real nice
hacksaw with a 32 tooth HSS blade and a steady vice can be used to
minimize the file work.
I have drilled 1/8" holes right through the hardest blades tho.
It ain't worth the trouble since I learned how to heat treat.
The bits were guaranteed at ACE hardware and seems like I used up ~4
for ~6 holes. A guy on the "knife-list" told me to try spinning the
carbide drill bits really fast, like 2000 to 2500 rpm and try it again
but haven't yet. What I had done was just the opposite. I used a thrust
washer from a washing machine, a drill chuck and a large vice and clamped
the whole thing together and spun the drill chuck by hand so I could
keep it cutting. Once it spun without cutting it was all over for that
carbide bit. :)
If you just want holes for fixed blade handle pins, grind them in with
a dremel. That's the reason I haven't tried drilling spinning fast yet,
this works good and no dull carbide bits left over just used up cheap
dremel stones. (Brownell's! :)
If you want a pin hole for a folding knife pivot pin it's easy to drill
with a cobalt HSS drill bit in the soft ends. You want to use the soft
end part anyway so you can file the tang to shape.
Alvin
TN65X57
This one I can answer.
Carbide bit . . . good but expensive
1. Make a little dam with modelling clay around area where hole will be
drilled.
2.Slightly fill with valve grinding or courser abrasive. Add "solvent" (oil)
only if needed to make the abrasive slurry slightly liquid. It will get mor
fluid from heat as project progresses.
3. Find a piece of tubing or rod (rod is a LAST resort) O.D. the size you
want the hole to be and cut hacksaw 4 slots up into it 1/8-1/4".
4. Place tubing in chuck of drill press.
5. Clamp metal down on the table of a drill press, proposed hole location
lined up with tubing.
6. Fill a small can with weight (rocks, sand, water, whatever) make a wire of
string hanger that will keep it attached to feed handle of the drill press.
7. Bring tubing down to contact with the metal to be drilled.
8. Hang weight from drill press feed handle
to keep firm but gentle pressure on the metal.
9. Slower speed will keep from slinging all of the grit out of the area to be
drilled.
10. Mosey around the area doing other things until the tubing cuts through.
11 Repeat as needed
A.T. Barr Custom Knifemaker
A.T. Barr
http://www.customknives.com
TN65X57 wrote:
--
A.T. Barr
http://www.customknives.com
859.885.1042
If you make, sell, or just love knives
and want a website with your name
customknives.com/your.name,
for $70.00 a year, check out
http://www.customknives.com/webdesign
LAURENCE SEGAL
you are annealing the spot to be drilled. they any carbide bit from a
hardware store wil do the job, cost about $6.5o laurence
rhinoknives.com
Andy Dingley
>How thick are they new?
1/8"
>Did you mean 58hrc? If 38hrc then...
38 - measured them on the indenter.
>What did you do to get them down to 38hrc,
Kept trying until we got it ! It took several goes.
For the most successful attempt, we made an electrically heated
fluidised sandbed in a vertical steel pipe. The blades had to be
roughed to size first, as this could only take a piece about a foot
long.
Didn't take a day, just a few hours and some very gradual cooling.
I've since made another electrical hotplate (kitchen cooker element,
with accurate temperature control) for hot salt bluing. One day I'll
do programmable temperature control of it, and the ability to program
cycles.
>What type of blade cross section are you using?
Various. Generally a fairly simple flat grind front-to-halfway-back
that doesn't taper down the length. Deepest is probably my kitchen
usuba that's about 2" and tapered across the whole depth.
--
Smert' Spamionam
jc
referenced is an old (~40's) text for physicists on how to make lab
equipment.
--
"Dance with me, you little toad."
-Alice Krige as Alma Mobley, Creepy Girl
TN65X57 wrote in message <20010725201233...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
Jeffry Johnston
: >How thick are they new?
: 1/8"
: >What did you do to get them down to 38hrc,
: For the most successful attempt, we made an electrically heated
: fluidised sandbed in a vertical steel pipe. The blades had to be
: roughed to size first, as this could only take a piece about a foot
: long.
: Didn't take a day, just a few hours and some very gradual cooling.
OK you took it well above 1300F and then control cooled it? :)
Sort of a cross between annealing and normalizing.
Good idea! :)
Off hand I'd say it didn't hurt it a bit.
Have you noticed a thicker than original de-carbed surface?
What are you using to re-heat treat it?
The same rig? (just pull it out and let it air cool?)
Do you know the temerature?
Are you drawing twice at 1000F?
: I've since made another electrical hotplate (kitchen cooker element,
: with accurate temperature control) for hot salt bluing. One day I'll
: do programmable temperature control of it, and the ability to program
: cycles.
: Smert' Spamionam
I've never heat treat HSS or hot salt blued.
The only bluing jobs I've ever had done cost me $18.50 each after I
did all the sanding on the old rifle and shotgun. That was like 10
years ago now the price is $24 for each long gun. Wow do they look
good too! :) They don't have that funny light blue "gunsmith blued"
look, I would have rather had 'em rusty than that look.
Alvin
Chas
>
> How do drill a hole in hardened metal?
Rodman Polycarbide bits.
You can drill it dry- hell, you can drill glass with them.
lifetime guarantee- resharpen with their wheel.
great bits.
--
Chas
"There is no bad weather, only bad clothing"
http://www.geocities.com/stevegartin/ (kuntao silat information)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/amm.html (Kuntao Silat videos)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cuecase.htm (Fine Cases and Accessories)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cane.html (Combat Cane for Cripples)
Andy Dingley
>OK you took it well above 1300F and then control cooled it? :)
Sort of - I can't remember the exact temperatures offhand, and they'd
have been in Celsius anyway (I've no idea what 1300F looks like).
>Sort of a cross between annealing and normalizing.
>Good idea! :)
>Have you noticed a thicker than original de-carbed surface?
Did worry about this a bit. It probably did suffer some surface
decarburisation, especially given the air we blew through the sand bd,
but then there was a lot of grinding to do later so we assume this
layer was removed.
Left the paint on to try and isolate it a bit too.
>The only bluing jobs I've ever had done cost me $18.50 each after I
>did all the sanding on the old rifle and shotgun.
Another friend (sometimes posts as "cursing chemist") is a black
powder shooter (a rare beast in the UK), a commercial chemist and
poisoner of small children, and an amateur hot-blueing anorak. He
boils up all sorts of evil brews, from old '30s recipes involving
cyanide and Eye of Newt, but gets some lovely deep colouration from
it. One day (!) we'll web some notes up on it....
--
Never anthropomorphise the users