Medieval heraldry / Latin questions
AnonMoos
Fidei" or "Arms of the Trinity" diagram of Christian symbolism (which
could also be considered fictional or attributed heraldry), and I would
greatly appreciate it if anyone could throw light on some questions
which I haven't yet been able to resolve:
1) On the image Trinity_Knight_shield.JPG linked from page
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/middlebrow/archives/trinity-knight/ ,
(a detail of a thirteenth-century manuscript), what is the reading of
the text in the outer white links on the shield? The red lettering in
the roundels are monograms for PATER, SPIRITUS, DEUS, and FILIUS. The
beginning of the text in the outer links looks a lot like "Hon est",
but the context of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity
(and the fact that "Hon" doesn't really mean anything in Latin) makes
it pretty certain that it should be read "Non est". The next bit of
text ("n" with curved superscript) could be an abbreviation for "nec".
But I really can't read the last word in these captions (despite there
being three versions of it given). I've played with this last word
being formed from the Latin stem AEQU- (Medieval spelling EQU-), but
no matter how I try, I just can't make a meaningful word out of it
(Equiiso? Equiito? Egunto? Ecoiiuncto??).
2) I haven't been able to find out many details of the diagram
included in the heraldic shields of Matthew Paris' mid-13th-century
"Chronica Majora". The 1975 book "The Heraldic Imagination" by Rodney
Dennys includes some basic information, but not as much as I need.
I've worked out that descriptions of the arms in question (Folio 45v,
shield no. 8) are included in the following two books (both of which
are basically inaccessible to me):
"The Matthew Paris Shields c1244-59", part III of the volume
_Rolls of Arms of Henry III_, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett
(Harleian Society series volume 113, Aspilogia series volume 2),
1967 (page 81?).
Vierteljahrschrift für Heraldik II (nineteenth century).
I'd be interested to know what is the field color (azure or gules?),
who it's said to be the coat of arms of (St. Michael the Archangel?),
and any further relevant details not included in the Dennys book.
Thanks for any help anyone is able to provide!
Francois R. Velde
>Hi, I've been trying to research the history of the medieval "Scutum
>Fidei" or "Arms of the Trinity" diagram of Christian symbolism (which
>could also be considered fictional or attributed heraldry), and I would
>greatly appreciate it if anyone could throw light on some questions
>which I haven't yet been able to resolve:
>[...]
>
>2) I haven't been able to find out many details of the diagram
>included in the heraldic shields of Matthew Paris' mid-13th-century
>"Chronica Majora". The 1975 book "The Heraldic Imagination" by Rodney
>Dennys includes some basic information, but not as much as I need.
>I've worked out that descriptions of the arms in question (Folio 45v,
>shield no. 8) are included in the following two books (both of which
>are basically inaccessible to me):
>
> "The Matthew Paris Shields c1244-59", part III of the volume
> _Rolls of Arms of Henry III_, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett
> (Harleian Society series volume 113, Aspilogia series volume 2),
> 1967 (page 81?).
page 61.
ARMS OF THE FAITH
Scutum Fidei.
Drawing of a shield-shaped device comprising four roundels, one in the centre
and one at each corner, joined by lines in orle and in pale. The central roundel
is labelled 'deus' the others respectively dexter, sinister, and base 'pat'
(pater), 'spts' (spiritus), and 'fili'(filius). Between the central and the
lowest roundel (filius) is a cross labelled 'v'bu' caro f'm est' (Verbum caro
factum est). The lines joining the outer roundels are each inscribed 'non est',
those joining the central roundel to the other three are each inscribed 'est',
f. 45b. CM ii. 647.
This is probably one of the earliest examples of this device. There is a similar
shield in the De Quincey Apocalypse where a young penitent woman uses it to ward
off the attacks of the devil (late thirteenth century). (Saunders, English
Illumination, i. 69 and ii, pl. 73.) In Wrythe's Book [ c.1480] iv. 8 and Peter
Le Neve's Book 8 [c. 1480-1500] this device is called the Arms of the Faith, but
Randle Holmes Book 115 [temp. Hen VI] assigns it to St. Michael, and elsewhere
it is called the Arms of the Trinity.
Neubecker's book on heraldry shows two examples, one described as the arms of
the bishop of York (?) from Harleian 2169 (which is Randle Holmes' book), the
other from the Wernigerode armorial, original now lost, the drawing by Otto
Hupp. The latter shield has a helm, imperial crown and crest of a haloed dove
holding an orb in its beak.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
AnonMoos
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit AnonMoos <anon...@io.com> os suum:
>> Hi, I've been trying to research the history of the medieval "Scutum
>> Fidei" or "Arms of the Trinity" diagram of Christian symbolism
>> (which could also be considered fictional or attributed heraldry),
>> and I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could throw light on
>> some questions which I haven't yet been able to resolve: [...] 2) I
>> haven't been able to find out many details of the diagram included
>> in the heraldic shields of Matthew Paris' mid-13th-century "Chronica
>> Majora". The 1975 book "The Heraldic Imagination" by Rodney Dennys
>> includes some basic information, but not as much as I need. I've
>> worked out that descriptions of the arms in question (Folio 45v,
>> shield no. 8) are included in
>> "The Matthew Paris Shields c1244-59", part III of the volume
>> _Rolls of Arms of Henry III_, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett
>> (Harleian Society series volume 113, Aspilogia series volume 2),
>> 1967
> page 61. ARMS OF THE FAITH Scutum Fidei.
> Drawing of a shield-shaped device comprising four roundels, one in
> the centre and one at each corner, joined by lines in orle and in
> pale. The central roundel is labelled 'deus' the others respectively
> dexter, sinister, and base 'pat' (pater), 'spts' (spiritus), and
> 'fili'(filius). Between the central and the lowest roundel (filius)
> is a cross labelled 'v'bu' caro f'm est' (Verbum caro factum est).
> The lines joining the outer roundels are each inscribed 'non est',
> those joining the central roundel to the other three are each
> inscribed 'est', f. 45b. CM ii. 647.
Is that a direct quote from the relevant description in Aspilogia 2?
Also, should that be "lines in orle and in PALL"?
> This is probably one of the earliest examples of this device. There
> is a similar shield in the De Quincey Apocalypse where a young
> penitent woman uses it to ward off the attacks of the devil (late
> thirteenth century). (Saunders, English Illumination, i. 69 and ii,
> pl. 73.) In Wrythe's Book [ c.1480] iv. 8 and Peter Le Neve's Book 8
> [c. 1480-1500] this device is called the Arms of the Faith, but
> Randle Holmes Book 115 [temp. Hen VI] assigns it to St. Michael, and
> elsewhere it is called the Arms of the Trinity.
Thanks, there's some useful information there -- but it didn't really
answer my most immediate question, which is: Is the diagram in the
Matthew Paris shields drawn on a shield, and if so, what is the
background color of the shield. And exactly whom is it said to be the
coat of arms of?
Are there accessible references for "Wrythe's Book" or "Peter Le Neve's
Book"? Thanks...
> Neubecker's book on heraldry shows two examples, one described as the
> arms of the bishop of York (?) from Harleian 2169 (which is Randle
> Holmes' book), the other from the Wernigerode armorial, original now
> lost, the drawing by Otto Hupp. The latter shield has a helm,
> imperial crown and crest of a haloed dove holding an orb in its beak.
I've seen the Neubecker book, and scans from it were posted last year.
The arms in Harleian ms. 2169 are not said there to be of a Bishop of
York -- see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sent-Myhell-Armys--Arms-of-St-Michael-ca-1460.png
Francois R. Velde
>> page 61. ARMS OF THE FAITH Scutum Fidei.
>Is that a direct quote from the relevant description in Aspilogia 2?
It's the complete description.
>Also, should that be "lines in orle and in PALL"?
I don't know what it should be, but it is "pale" in the text.
>Thanks, there's some useful information there -- but it didn't really
>answer my most immediate question, which is: Is the diagram in the
>Matthew Paris shields drawn on a shield, and if so, what is the
>background color of the shield.
No color indicated suggests there are none in the mss.
>And exactly whom is it said to be the
>coat of arms of?
See above.
>
>Are there accessible references for "Wrythe's Book" or "Peter Le Neve's
>Book"? Thanks...
The latter published by Joseph Foster as "A Tudor Book of Arms being Harleian
Manuscript no. 6163:, the second part of "Two Tudor Books of Arms" London, The
De Walden library, 1904; with many b&w illustrations and an index. I'll look it
up when I have a chance.
The former is unpublished but "closely connected" according to Aspilogia I, p.
109.
AnonMoos
>> Also, should that be "lines in orle and in PALL"?
> I don't know what it should be, but it is "pale" in the text.
Much as I hesitate to pit my relatively feeble heraldic skills against
those of Mr. Tremlett, I bet that it was supposed to be "pall"...
>> Thanks, there's some useful information there -- but it didn't really
>> answer my most immediate question, which is: Is the diagram in the
>> Matthew Paris shields drawn on a shield, and if so, what is the
>> background color of the shield.
> No color indicated suggests there are none in the mss.
Ok... I was just wondering if the shield on blue or red went back to
the thirteenth century, or if the attribution as the arms of
St. Michael went back to the thirteenth century, but it seems that it
doesn't (based on surviving evidence).
>> Are there accessible references for "Wrythe's Book" or "Peter Le
>> Neve's Book"? Thanks...
> The latter published by Joseph Foster as "A Tudor Book of Arms being
> Harleian Manuscript no. 6163:, the second part of "Two Tudor Books
> of Arms" London, The De Walden library, 1904; with many b&w
> illustrations and an index. I'll look it up when I have a chance.
Don't feel obligated, I was just curious what appx. date those
manuscripts were, and if they had more conventional or commonly used
titles...
--
المتبرجة خير
من الإرهابي
المنتحر
Murderers are not martyrs! http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Francois R. Velde
> manuscripts were, and if they had more conventional or commonly used
> titles...
The dates I indicated in my first post. Aspilogia I is a catalogue
of medieval rolls, in which names were assigned by Wagner to rolls
for convenience, and I used those names.
I agree with you that pall seems more appropriate than pale.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Derek Howard
I have had a chance to get back to my bookshelves and dig Foster out.
"Two Tudor Books of Arms - illustrated - being Harleian Manuscripts
2169 & 6163", ed. Joseph Foster, The De Walden Library, MCMIV contains
the following.
A Tudor Book of Arms, tricked by Robert Cooke, being Harleian MS No
2169, [formerly Randle Holme coll. no 6 "Aunciant Coates, B4, 20;
said by Foster to be a copy of a ms c.Henry VI. CoA ms L8 may be a copy
with additional material. A Catalogue of Manuscipts in the College of
Arms, Collections, vol 1, p 41 confirms ms L8c as possibly Robert
Cooke's copy of Randle Holme's book and the date of the original as
temp Hen 6]
p 11. folio 9b, 3 "Sent Myhell, armys". [Blazoned by Foster:]
Azure, the device of the Trinity argent, inscribed sable. [illustrated
drawing from the original on p.12 shows the trick of 'Aswre' on the
field and 'argent' on the bordure (where lies 'non est').
A Tudor Book of Arms, Harleian MS No 6163 [Perhaps as early as Henry
VI. Formerly in possession of Peter Le Neve].
p. 128. 8. "Ye Armes of Ye Faith". [Blazoned by Foster:] Gules, a
bordure argent with the device of the Trinity. "See St Michael page
11."
There is also on p.128:
2. "Sancta Trinitas". Azure, a conventional representation of the
Blessed Trinity, or.
Illustrated on p 127 as God seated with aureole giving blessing overall
Christ on the cross which is standing on a boulder.
Derek Howard
Francois R. Velde
> I have had a chance to get back to my bookshelves and dig Foster out.
> "Two Tudor Books of Arms - illustrated - being Harleian Manuscripts
> 2169 & 6163", ed. Joseph Foster, The De Walden Library, MCMIV contains
> the following.
> p 11. folio 9b, 3 "Sent Myhell, armys". [Blazoned by Foster:]
> Azure, the device of the Trinity argent, inscribed sable. [illustrated
> drawing from the original on p.12 shows the trick of 'Aswre' on the
> field and 'argent' on the bordure (where lies 'non est').
> A Tudor Book of Arms, Harleian MS No 6163 [Perhaps as early as Henry
> VI. Formerly in possession of Peter Le Neve].
> p. 128. 8. "Ye Armes of Ye Faith". [Blazoned by Foster:] Gules, a
> bordure argent with the device of the Trinity. "See St Michael page
> 11."
Interesting that the field is gules in one case and azure in the other.
> There is also on p.128:
> 2. "Sancta Trinitas". Azure, a conventional representation of the
> Blessed Trinity, or.
> Illustrated on p 127 as God seated with aureole giving blessing overall
> Christ on the cross which is standing on a boulder.
Surely there's a bird somewhere?..
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Joseph McMillan
Francois R. Velde wrote:
>
> > There is also on p.128:
> > 2. "Sancta Trinitas". Azure, a conventional representation of the
> > Blessed Trinity, or.
> > Illustrated on p 127 as God seated with aureole giving blessing overall
> > Christ on the cross which is standing on a boulder.
>
> Surely there's a bird somewhere?..
>
Dennys' The Heraldic Imagination (and it sounds quite similar), Dennys
notes the original artist's heretical error in omitting the Third
Person from the composition.
Joseph McMillan
Derek Howard
I have checked the illustrations against each other. Dennys' is indeed
taken from a redrawing of the Le Neve ms however, the Christ hangs to
the opposite side of the cross, God and Christ have the crosses in
their aureoles missing and God looks younger than Christ in the Dennys
volume! Neither have the bird but whether this is an error in copying
from the original ms or not is unclear.
Derek Howard
AnonMoos
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Derek Howard <dho...@skynet.be> os suum:
>> I have had a chance to get back to my bookshelves and dig Foster
>> out. "Two Tudor Books of Arms - illustrated - being Harleian
>> Manuscripts 2169 & 6163", ed. Joseph Foster, The De Walden Library,
>> MCMIV contains the following.
>> p 11. folio 9b, 3 "Sent Myhell, armys". [Blazoned by Foster:]
>> Azure, the device of the Trinity argent, inscribed
>> sable. [illustrated drawing from the original on p.12 shows the
>> trick of 'Aswre' on the field and 'argent' on the bordure (where
>> lies 'non est').
>> A Tudor Book of Arms, Harleian MS No 6163 [Perhaps as early as
>> Henry VI. Formerly in possession of Peter Le Neve]. p. 128. 8. "Ye
>> Armes of Ye Faith". [Blazoned by Foster:] Gules, a bordure argent
>> with the device of the Trinity. "See St Michael page 11."
> Interesting that the field is gules in one case and azure in the other.
It seems reasonably clear that for the fiteenth century, the design on
white on a red field was considered to be the attributed arms of God
(or of the Holy Trinity), while the design on white on a blue field
was for lesser uses -- such as the attributed arms of St. Michael, or
the real coat of arms of the Priory of Black Canons (monastery of
Christ Church) near Aldgate in the City of London.
Part of the reason I started this thread was to try to ascertain if
this color symbolism extended back to the 13th century (when the
diagram was first attested), but it seems that it doesn't -- the only
background color I've been able to find used in 13th-century
depictions is green. If green has any real significance there
(something which is not obvious to me), then it's more likely to be
liturgical than heraldic...
The design on YELLOW on a red shield was attributed as the arms of
the early martyr St. Faith (of Agen, Gaul) in Harleian Manuscript 5852.
AnonMoos
yet further references (in a somewhat oblique manner), I kind of
semi-stumbled across the following article:
"An Illustrated Fragment of Peraldus's Summa of Vice: Harleian MS
3244" by Michael Evans in "Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld
Institutes", Vol. 45 (1982), pp. 14-68.
This gathers together information on all the 13th-century Shield of
the Trinity depictions, and includes small photos of most of them.
So in the image Trinity_Knight_shield.JPG linked from page
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/middlebrow/archives/trinity-knight/
the text along the outer edges of the shield reads "Non est et e
converso" (i.e. "Is not, and vice versa", indicating that a link
connecting two outer nodes A and B encodes both of the propositions
"A is not B" and "B is not A").
And from the facsimile of the Matthew Paris shields diagram, it's
clear that the diagram was drawn in the shape of a shield, but was
not actually shown placed on a shield.
The only 13th-century possibly symbolic use of color that I haven't yet
seen would probably be in the ca. 1260 De Quincy Apocalypse (a.k.a the
Lambeth Palace Apocalypse or Lambeth ms. 209), folio 53r. Here the
diagram is shown on a shield, and the shield seems to have a color, but
I've only seen black-and-white reproductions of it, so I'm not sure
what color it is.
Francois R. Velde
> seen would probably be in the ca. 1260 De Quincy Apocalypse (a.k.a the
> Lambeth Palace Apocalypse or Lambeth ms. 209), folio 53r. Here the
> diagram is shown on a shield, and the shield seems to have a color, but
> I've only seen black-and-white reproductions of it, so I'm not sure
> what color it is.
It's yellow.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
AnonMoos
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit AnonMoos <anon...@io.com> os suum:
>> The only 13th-century possibly symbolic use of color that I haven't
>> yet seen would probably be in the ca. 1260 De Quincy Apocalypse
>> (a.k.a the Lambeth Palace Apocalypse or Lambeth ms. 209), folio
>> 53r. Here the diagram is shown on a shield, and the shield seems
>> to have a color, but I've only seen black-and-white reproductions
>> of it, so I'm not sure what color it is.
> It's yellow.
Thanks -- that's outside the conventional 15th-century color symbolism
(showing yet again that the 15th-century color symbolism didn't yet
exist in the 13th century). The article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity now seems to be
reasonably comprehensive and documented, with the exception of a few
gaps, such as what happened to the 14th century? (no attestations of
the diagram that I've seen), and what about Europe outside of England
and northern France? (Yes, there's the Wernigerode armorial, but
that's a redrawn version of a lost manuscript about which not much
information seems to be available.) I tried to e-mail František
Šmahel, the Czech professor who wrote an article titled "Das `Scutum
fidei christianae magistri Hieronymi Pragensis' in der Entwicklung der
mittelalterlichen trinitarischen Diagramme" (which I haven't yet been
able to see), but haven't gotten a reply...
P.S. In my last message, I meant "Non est nec e converso".
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
"AnonMoos" <anon...@io.com> wrote:
>Yes, there's the Wernigerode armorial, but that's a redrawn version of
> a lost manuscript about which not much information seems to be
> available.
The Wernigeroder Wappenbuch is also know as the Schaffhausen'sches
Wappenbuch. The original is on paper, two volumes, 30 X 21cm. Vol. I
has 1870, and Vol. II 1352 CoA, alltogether 3222 CoA.
It was made between 1486 and 1492, with some younger drawings.
Since 1931 it was the possession of Prof. Otto Hupp, later his daughter
Maria.
There is a copy by Ad. M. Hildebrandt in the Library of the "Herold" in
Berlin.
It is known as one of the best received armorials of the 15th. C. It also
contains italian and polish CoA.
Kind regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
AnonMoos
>"AnonMoos" <anon...@io.com> wrote:
>> (Yes, there's the Wernigerode armorial, but that's a redrawn
>> version of a lost manuscript about which not much information seems
>> to be available.)
> The Wernigeroder Wappenbuch is also know as the Schaffhausen'sches
> Wappenbuch. The original is on paper, two volumes, 30 X 21cm. Vol. I
> has 1870, and Vol. II 1352 CoA, alltogether 3222 CoA. It was made
> between 1486 and 1492, with some younger drawings. Since 1931 it
> was the possession of Prof. Otto Hupp, later his daughter Maria.
> There is a copy by Ad. M. Hildebrandt in the Library of the "Herold"
> in Berlin. It is known as one of the best received armorials of the
> 15th. C. It also contains italian and polish CoA.
Thanks, that's more information than I was able to discover before.
But I'm not sure it helps me localize things -- was it made in
Wernigerode or Schaffhausen? It indicates that somebody outside of
England and Northern France took an interest in the Scutum Fidei
diagram (and it includes a whole heraldic achievement, with helm,
mantling, crown, and crest -- not just a shield -- which is somewhat
unique), but standing on its own without some relevant context, it
doesn't really do too much to tell me whether the diagram was ever
really in any regular use outside of England and Northern France...
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
"AnonMoos" <anon...@io.com> wrote:
> Thanks, that's more information than I was able to discover before.
> But I'm not sure it helps me localize things -- was it made in
> Wernigerode or Schaffhausen? It indicates that somebody outside of
> England and Northern France took an interest in the Scutum Fidei
> diagram (and it includes a whole heraldic achievement, with helm,
> mantling, crown, and crest -- not just a shield -- which is somewhat
> unique), but standing on its own without some relevant context, it
> doesn't really do too much to tell me whether the diagram was ever
> really in any regular use outside of England and Northern France...
The Wernigerode Armorial was owned by:
1. Joerg von Schaffhausen (living near Noerdlingen).
2. Princely Library of Stolberg in Wernigerode.
3. Otto Hupp since 1931.
4. Maria Hupp since 1949.
So we could also call it Hupp's Armorial.
The Scutum Fidei is in the first volume on the first folio, afront of the
arms
of the Suffering of Jesus.
I have looked in the "Bibliographie zur Heraldik" written by Hennng and
Jochums, and it seems nobody has written about this subject. That does not
mean that the Scutum Fidei was not known in Heraldry in Germany. The
above armorial is proof of that.
Regards,
Klaas