limp-wristing: a myth?
Rrafael J. Azanza
it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
the cycling?
Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Mowery
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
# Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
#
If the gun is allowed to come back with the recoil , it is moving back with
the slide so there is no relative movement in relationship of the slide and
the frame. Try sitting in a chair with very good wheels on it on a smooth
surface and throwing a heavy object. It will not go very far as the chair
is going backwards. Then get someone to hold the chair so it will not move
and see how far you can then throw the object.
Limp wristing is not that the gun jiggles around left and right but it is
when it is not held so that it can not recoil backwards.
Steve Tuttle
:Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
:it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
:detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
:or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
:allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
:the cycling?
:
You have described it accurately. Some guns are touchier than
others. My wife tried a .22 Beretta and it wouldn't cycle. I had
no problems. I told her to grip it more firmly and her problems
went away. I've seen the same thing happen with a new Springfield
.45 ACP.
It's more likely to happen with new guns with fresh, stiff
springs.
Brian Nolen
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
#
# Thanks.
With a revolver this is no problem at all. With a semi automatic you are
relying on the force of recoil to unlock the pistol, overcome the resistance
of springs to force the slide back far enough to eject the spent case and
pick up a new one from the magazine.
Not locking the wrist as firmly as possible basically adds another spring
into the equation. Depending on the load that you're using, it may or may
not have the oomph to overcome the recoil springs _and_ the extra
springiness of the unlocked wrist.
Brian
john
Christopher Morton
Azanza) wrote:
#Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
#it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
#detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
#or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
#allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
#the cycling?
It takes a certain amount of energy for the slide to overcome the
inertia of the recoil and hammer/striker springs as well as it's own
mass.
If the energy created by the firing of the cartridge is marginal for
accomplishing this task, absorbing some of it in movement of the
firing hand may indeed prevent proper functioning.
Stand face to face with someone and push them backwards with your
hands.
Now sit in a swivel chair with wheels, with your feet off the floor
and try to do the same thing.
See the difference?
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
Ronald Bloom
a pistol with your finger while it was laying on a table, the recoil of
the round would force both the slide and the frame back, and the empty
case would still be in the chamber. I have seen limp wristing first
hand, my friend though he would bring the pistol up after ever shot to
see where he hit, and he was having stove pipes.
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
MR
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
#
# Thanks.
Check out the info here: http://www.crpa.org/dec01miller.html for an explanation.
MR
Clark Magnuson
The primary drivers for failure to eject:
1) The momentum of the bullet
2) The mass of the slide
3) The mass of the pistol frame
4) The mass of the hand
5) The average force of the recoil spring from battery to ejecting
6) anything else with an effect that is easily measured
The secondary drivers of failure to eject:
1) The mass of the powder
2) The mass of the fore arm
3) The stiffness [inverse of limpness or compliance] of the wrist
4) The stiffness of the elbow
5) The mass of the upper arm
6) The stiffness of the shoulder
7) The average force times distance to cock the hammer
8) The friction between slide and frame
9) The softness [compliance] of the hand
10)The firmness of the grip of the hand
11)Elevation of the barrel [ aiming up or down]
12) Is the shirt sleeve buttoned?
13) anything else with an effect that is measurable with very sensitive
instrumentation
The third level of affecting variables:
1) Temperature
2) Humidity
3) Elevation
4) Cleanliness of chamber
5) limpness of the shoulder mass
6) limpness at the waist
7) traction of the shooter shoes
8) air pressure
9) anything else that can be calculated to have an effect, but too
small to measure given shot to shot variances in more direct variables
The fourth level of affecting variables
1) butterfly sneezes in Asia
2) anything else with an effect that is not possible to calculate or
measure, but can be argued to have some effect
THE PSYCHOLOGY ANSWER
Those persons who chose an obscure secondary factor to mention have
chosen "limp wisting" to satisfy a bias. The possible biases include:
1) Making it the fault of the shooter, and not the provider of the gun
whose responsibility it is to get a lighter recoil spring or more
powerful ammo.
2) Suggesting that the shooter has an effeminate nature, and thus
increasing the relative masculinity of the myth spreader.
3) Providing an easy answer for grumpy old men who don't want to think.
4) All of the above.
PREVIOUS RANTING AND JR. HIGH ALGEBRA OF EJECTING SHELLS
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8ic1fr%246i5%241%40xring.cs.umd.edu
For quite a few pistols, I have measured the minimum amount of powder
necessary to get a semi auto to cycle with the stock spring and also the
amount of powder with the heaviest spring available. What I have found
is that only a fraction of the momentum of the bullet is reflected in
the momentum of the slide and barrel. It seems that most of the recoil
is transferred to the hand before the bullet leaves the barrel.
click on the pistol
click on technical issues
click on recoil spring selection tips by Bill Wilson
"As a rule of thumb, you should use the heaviest recoil spring possible,
which does not interfere with the pistol functioning."
I use AA#5 as you can see it has a very predictable powder to pressure
ratio
1) 45 acp 185 gr 1100 fps 10.2 gr AA#5 18,000 psi
2) 45 acp +P 1200 fps 10.8 gr AA#5 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super 1312 fps 12.4 gr AA#5 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland 1500 fps 14.5 gr AA#5 38,800 cup
Example:
Patriot 45acp
http://www.republicarmsinc.com/
15 pound to start and 42 pound spring at the rear [home made spring
assembly], is just right for 10.3 gr of AA#5. That is, it is just enough
powder to keep the Patriot from jamming with that spring.
The bullet leaves the gun at 1100 fps.
The bullet weighs 185gr = 185/7000 = .026 Lb.
The slide weighs .5 Lb.
The barrel weighs .1 Lb.
The spring is 15 Lb to start.
The spring is 42 lb at back.
The momentum of the bullet equals the momentum of the slide and barrel.
[1100][.026]=V[.5+.1}
V=47.7 feet per sec
Velocity of slide and barrel = velocity of slide
Energy of slide = .5mVV= one half mass velocity squared
Es=.5[mass of .5 pounds][47.7][47.7]
Mass = [wieght]/gravity= .5/32.2=.0155
Es=.5[.0155][47.7][47.7]=17.64 foot pounds of energy
The energy required to pull back the slide = [force][ distance]
Force = average force = [15+42]/2 = 28.5 pounds force
distance = 1.656"=1.656/12=.138 feet of slide stroke
Eslide = [28.5][.138]=3.93 foot pounds
BUT WAIT A MINUTE! 17.64 DOES NOT EQUAL 3.93!
Not all of the bullet momentum went into the slide and barrel.
Some of it accelerated the hand.
Only 3.933/17.64= 22% went into the slide and barrel.
What does this mean to someone who wants to calculate the spring needed
for a semi auto pistol?
Heavy firm hands need stiffer springs than soft light hands and there is
no good way to measure how light and soft one's hand is.
So, you cannot accurately calculate the spring you need.
However, a CZ52 9mm pistol takes 4.7 gr AA#5 to cycle with a 125 gr .357
bullet. Put in a Wolff +10% spring and it takes 5.3 gr AA#5 to cycle. So
you can calculate spring requirements over a small region of already
known spring requirements.
The 22% finagle factor [above] will go up for heavier slides with
lighter springs. The above example is an extreme case of light slide and
heavy spring. The numbers are usually around 30~33%.
Never say "limp wristing" again. Say, "If the gun jams, get a lighter
spring. If the slide slams the frame, get a heavier spring."
Clark
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8hdt6p%2441m%241%40xring.cs.umd.edu
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=a6ktut%244mu%241%40xring.cs.umd.edu
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=9muhaf%24b5v%241%40xring.cs.umd.edu
My own calculation on "How far do cases fly?":
1) For a semi-automatic case fired 5 feet form the floor, the time to
reach the floor is
t= square root ((2)distance / acceleration )= root (5'/32'/sec/sec)= .54
seconds
2) In a Colt .45 the ejector contacts the case when the slide is back
1.3". The farthest the slide can travel is 1.8" where it hits a stop. If
the spring is perfectly sized for the gun and the round, then the slide
will just run out of energy at the stop. Assume Vslide = 0 at 1.8".
3) Energy Slide at 1.3 inches = (force) (distance)= (16lb
spring)(1.8-1.3=.5")=.66 foot pounds of kinetic energy left in slide
when it hits the case
4) Energy is also = 1/2 mass velocity squared = .5 (mass of slide=
weight
of slide/ grav accel=12 oz/32 ft/sec/sec)(V squared)
5) Combining equations 3) and 4): Vslide at 1.3" = square
root(E/(.5mass)) = root(.66 ft lb/((.5)(.023 lb sec sec /ft)) = 7.6
feet/sec
6)Center of gravity [this should be moment of inertia, but that would be
work] is .25" from extractor claw and ejector hits the
case at .35" from the extractor claw.
Velocity of case = (.25"/.35") velocity of slide at 1.3" = (.25/.35)7.6
feet/sec = 5.4 feet per sec = 3.6 miles per hour
7) Combining 1) and 6): Distance case travels=
(Velocity)(time)=(5.4ft/sec)(.54 sec)=2.9 feet horizontally from the
gun
And Wolff FAQ wants your empties to land from 3 to 6 feet. They must
want the slide to barely hit the stop.
http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html
Clark
George
that made it worse. If the pistol isn't held firmly the slide won't travel
fully and chamber a new round. You can grip too tightly and reduce your
accuracy.
George in Las Vegas
Joseph Lovell
Rrafael J. Azanza wrote:
#Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
#it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
#detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
#or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
#allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
#the cycling?
#
# Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
#
# Thanks.
#
#
Imagine a table across which you have to roll a ball at a certain speed.
Simple, just push it with enough force and it will roll at that speed.
Now, imagine that the table itself starts to move in the same direction
in which the ball must roll. Some of the force used to start the ball
moving will be wasted just keeping the ball in the same spot on the
table since the ball will initially stay in the same point in space (or,
will seem to want to move in the opposite direction relative to the table).
Somethng like that anyway, it is clear in my head, I'm just having
trouble gettign it into words today.
cur...@ptdprolog.net
was meant for use by the slide. Imagine the top shock mount in your car being
able to move upward when you hit a bump. Instead of the shock compressing and
smoothing out the bump, the wheel would bounce against the wheel well. The
same thing happens when a .45 is "limp wristed" energy meant to press teh
slide back against the recoil spring is transfered to the hand,wrist, and
forearm. Now the whole pistol is moving (in the same direction as the slide)
instead of just the slide. So the slide may not move fully to the rear
because the rear has moved even more rearward. And if the slide does not move
it's full travel, it can fail to eject the spent case, not move far enough
back to pick up a new round, or if it does, it may not have the energy to
drive that round out of the magazine and fully into battery.
bi...@aim.edu.ph (Rrafael J. Azanza) said:
> ...
Doug T
#
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
Okay imagine a pistol just hanging in space, and lets allow the weight of the
frame to be zero.
Now as soon as it's fired the slide is going to start moving backwards. As soon
as it does the same forces causing that motion are going to be transferred
through the recoil spring to the frame. since nothing is holding the frame and
it has zero inertia it will just right on back with the slide. Hence the pistol
never opens, never ejects old round, never compresses recoil spring, never gets
to reload.
The firmer the grip on the frame and the heavier the frame is the more inertia
and resistance the frame has to moving and the less likely limp wrist jams.
Doug T
dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
# Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
"Limp-wristing" is when you don't hold your wrist stiff. Rather than
allowing a bit of muzzle rise, your whole hand and sometimes arm gets
shoved back. If this happens, energy is used up shoving your arm around
and there's very little left over to move the slide. That leads to the
slide not going back all the way and that leads to assorted failures to
eject and feed ammunition.
--
David Griffith
Dwight Gruber
A self-loading (auto) pistol is designed so that the inertia of the slide
and recoil spring counters the action of the powder's energy release and the
bullet travelling down the bore in a calculated and deliberate manner. A
specific amount of energy is absorbed allowing the slide to reach its
maximum travel, and the spring to return it with enough energy to strip a
round from the magazine and chamber it.
A pistol locked in a vise and discharged reperesents the "ideal" dynamic
situation for the pistol's operation: the inertia of the vise and its rest
is so great that the entire recoil impulse is transmitted to the slide and
spring, making it work as designed.
A pistol held in the hand is no longer an ideal situation: a certain
percentage of the gun's recoil impulse is absorbed by movement of the
shooter's wrist, elbow, shoulder, and upper body--this can be readily seen
and felt, and is different with each shooter. As a shooter's hold becomes
looser and looser ("limp-wristing"), more of the recoil energy is
transmitted to the body--primarily the wrist and shoulder--and less is
available to operate the gun's action. Eventually the energy drops below
the pistol's design level for operation, and failures begin to occur. The
failure level, and type of failure--to eject, stovepiping,
chambering--depends on the particular gun. Lugers, for instance, are
particularly sensitive to this circumstance.
--DwightG
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Bterr
malfunction. However, it's a lot more rare than people believe. In general,
the cause is ammunition which is marginal to the pistol being used or a pistol
that is not properly cleaned and lubed or has poor design.
J. Nielsen
wrote:
#Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
#it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
#detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
#or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
#allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
#the cycling?
Unless you are talking gas-operation, all automatic weapons rely
on momentum to function. When you fire your pistol, the momentum
of the slide is what cycles the gun.
Once the barrel is unlocked, only the slide will move backward.
If the gun is held too loosely, the whole gun will move backward.
The speed of the slide (relative to the frame) will be less, and the
likelihood for malfunctions will increase
I hope it was briefly enough. <g>
--
Regards,
J. Nielsen
Stan Schaefer
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
#
# Thanks.
#
The exact problem is a little difficult to describe long-distance, but
a coach can spot it instantly in person. It results in stovepipes and
failures to feed in 1911s. Basically, if you don't hold your weapon
firmly enough and let your arm absorb the recoil, there won't be
enough energy imparted to the slide to properly eject the spent case
and feed the next round.
Stan
Seafin 41
Limp-wristing is a very real and serious phenomenom. If you doubt it, try
holding a Glock 9mm loosely as you fire it and you will get a jam within a few
rounds.
In any automatic, one end of the recoil spring bears against the slide, the
other end against the frame of the gun. When the gun is fired, the slide
recoils back against the spring, but the spring pushes back against the frame.
If there is no resistance, instead of the slide moving back in relation to the
frame, the spring does not compress or does not compress fully and just pushes
the frame and the entire gun back.
Of course, the gun frame has a certain amount of inertia, so if it is heavy and
the cartridge is powerful, the gun may function even if limp-wristed.
Limp-wristing jams are most likely with light frame guns (like the Glock),
mid-range cartridges and stiff recoil springs.
Phil
Mark Gibson
#Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
#it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
#detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
#or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
#allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
#the cycling?
Failure to cycle problems due to limp wristing are definitely not a myth.
The slide needs to travel backward during recoil. The next round is
being fed up from the mag almost immediately after the current one is
fired. Now, think about what happens when the "energy of the recoil" is
directed at an improper angle due to limp wristing. The slide doesn't
get a full push backwards, and the fresh round is being jostled around
as it gets sent toward the chamber. Ejection problems can also occur as
a result of limp wristing, because many semi-auto pistols will jam if
the angle of the gun changes much as it cycles, and you end up with spent
brass stuck in the enjection port when the slide closes.
What you want to to hold the pistol in such a manner as to ensure that it
doesn't flip or twist much when you fire it. That way, the slide travels
backward evenly, the old brass finds its way out, and the fresh round finds
its way in -- all assuming the pistol is decent and has been well maintained.
Semi-auto pistols prefer a stable mount -- a proper grip and stance on
the part of the shooter.
Best regards,
Mark Gibson
NRA Life
--
"When the need arises, any tool or object closest to you becomes a hammer."
-- found on www.dsm.org
"Canada is like a loft apartment over a really great party" -- Robin Williams
GNerol
with less then full power ammo, but can happen on any auto pistol that has the
recoil spring and recoil impulse closely balanced. When you limp wrist those
pistols, too much of the recoil impulse is wasted in moving the mass of the
pistol to the rear and the slide does not go back far enough. What you usually
get is a failure to pickup the next round in the magazine.
GNerol
Pankoski
flexible frame guns like the Glock.
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Gizmo
Harold Kahl
#
So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
# Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
#
Yes, you are missing something. In order for the gun to cycle, the slide
must move back while the frame stays put. If they both move back
together, it does not cycle. The frame will have some inertia, but
sometimes not enough, especially if the magazine is nearly empty.
jercamp45
Yep, you are! Most center-fire semi-automatic handguns are recoil
operated! That means it uses the force of the recoil to unlock the
action and extract-eject-rechamber a new round. Therefore a semi-solid
platform needs to be present to push forward to provide the proper
momentum for proper cycling!
I have seen it happen and have had it happen! In both cases the
shooter was used to shooting alot of rimfire ammo, which uses a
blowback operation and has little recoil so you do not hold on so
tight. Then they/me switched to centerfire and the need for a steady
hold became more apparent! Jams occured in normally reliable, high
quality guns(SIG's, Glock's and a custom tuned 1911).
A solid stance/hold also has the benefit of rapid recovery from
recoil and better accuracy.
Hope this helps!
DVC
Jercamp45
Buzz Chandler
"Bterr" <bt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:be90vn$s8b$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# It sometimes happens that a person with a weak wrist can cause a semi-auto
to
# malfunction. However, it's a lot more rare than people believe. In
general,
# the cause is ammunition which is marginal to the pistol being used or a
pistol
# that is not properly cleaned and lubed or has poor design.
#
Bunk, it's caused by poorly trained shooters. In my experience, 100% of
failuer to feed issues in GLOCK pistols have been limp wristing, not
marginal ammunition or a dirty gun.
Charles Winters
types and my wife has a Sig 228 and a Mauser Hsc. I frequently am careless
about having a firm grip and all of these pistols function just fine
regardless. My conclusion, therefore, is that its not a iron rule that
"limp wristing" will cause failures to feed, it depends on the particular
pistol. - CW
snip
Jams occured in normally reliable, high
> ...
Randy Sweeney
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
#
# Of course, maybe I'm missing something.
The slide does indeed come back.... but if the whole gun comes back with it,
the relative motion between the two is weaker and the ejection/feed can be
problematic.
More of a problem for weaker loads and lighter guns from what I have seen.
Looking 400
most of them to be somewhat vitriolic. This was clear and well delivered.
You sir, are not just knowledgeable, you are a gentleman.
Bud
"Ralph Mowery" <rmo...@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:be90s4$s5q$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
with
> ...
and
> ...
move
> ...
Objekt
I say this because at the range a couple weeks ago, I deliberately
limp-wristed two clips (20 rounds) out of my CZ 75B .40 S&W, with no
problems whatsoever. I really did hold it as loosely as possible, without
letting it fly out of my mitt. No stovepipes, no feed failures, no
complaints from the gun whatsoever.
This was to see whether my earlier extraction/ejection/terminology du jour
problems would resurface. They didn't. Maybe the CZ-75B is
un-limp-wristable?
For the record, mine had fired about 600 rounds lifetime at this point, with
a replacement Wolff recoil spring (slightly heavier at 16lb than the stock
14lb spring).
Objekt
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
Doug T
Enough math to make me wonder.
Mr. Magnuson, I love your answer for this question and many others that you have
put much work into. But I sometimes wonder if you don't like math just a little
too much. :)
Doug T
another one saved for later use
J. Nielsen
wrote:
#Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
#it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
#detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
#or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
#allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
#the cycling?
Unless you are talking gas-operation, all automatic weapons rely
on momentum to function. When you fire your pistol, the momentum
of the slide is what cycles the gun.
Once the barrel is unlocked, only the slide will move backward.
If the gun is held too loosely, the whole gun will move backward.
The speed of the slide (relative to the frame) will be less, and the
likelihood for malfunctions will increase
I hope it was briefly enough. <g>
--
Regards,
J. Nielsen
jeffhoser
A lot actually. Most self loading pistols need the resistance of a firm
grip to permit the slide to travel to its stop and eject the spent
cartridge. If the pistol moves rearward and upward too fast the slide never
get fully out of battery and the spent case is trapped in the action and/or
the hammer won't engage the sear leading to the possibility of a "slam fire"
as the bolt strips a new cartridge. JH
Joseph Lovell
Objekt wrote:
#Depends a lot on the gun, from my limited experience.
#
#I say this because at the range a couple weeks ago, I deliberately
#limp-wristed two clips (20 rounds) out of my CZ 75B .40 S&W, with no
#problems whatsoever. I really did hold it as loosely as possible, without
#letting it fly out of my mitt. No stovepipes, no feed failures, no
#complaints from the gun whatsoever.
#
#
I have tried this exercise with various guns with little success. I
think that once you know the proper way to shoot it is almost impossible
to limp wrist. You unconsiously tighten the hand as the gun fires. I
have held my wifes 92FS with just my thumb, trigger finger, and middle
finger and just enough pressure to keep it from flying out of my hand to
try to show people that they don't need a death grip to control a
handgun, and have not had any of the limp wrist problems.
Done the same with my Super Blackhawk .44 mag. using UMC loads just to
show people that a .44 mag. is very controlable and as long as you are
looking at the hammer end of the gun ain't nothin' bad gonna happen to
you.
Penguin
> ...
I saw it first hand when I took my wife shooting (both a Ruger P-95 and a
Taurus PT-99). No jams for me whatsoever in 100 rounds--7 jams for my
wife. It is certainly no fallacy.
-Cheers
JOS
# # It sometimes happens that a person with a weak wrist can cause a
semi-auto
# to
# # malfunction. However, it's a lot more rare than people believe. In
# general,
# # the cause is ammunition which is marginal to the pistol being used or a
# pistol
# # that is not properly cleaned and lubed or has poor design.
# #
# Bunk, it's caused by poorly trained shooters. In my experience, 100% of
# failuer to feed issues in GLOCK pistols have been limp wristing, not
# marginal ammunition or a dirty gun.
My ex-wife is only 5 feet tall and 140 .lbs. She has never had a problem
with 1911 style. CZ-75. Full size S&W or Browning Hi-Power. But she did not
like these because of single action only or long trigger reach. Again no
limp wristing problems with these weapons. She finally chose a S&W Sigma in
..40 S&W. With a high capacity magazine she had no trouble till she got down
to the last 5 or so rounds. With a 10 rounder magazine she would get off 5
or so rounds. Coaching from me (worthless) and others did not work. She
insisted she would not be able to NOT limp wrist in an emergency. It took me
almost a year to get her a load that was not too strong but shot the last
round in the magazine. Now that she has divorced me her supply is very
limited.
So I would say it has something to do with the weight of the slide and the
frame.
David Steuber
# Mr. Magnuson, I love your answer for this question and many others
# that you have put much work into. But I sometimes wonder if you
# don't like math just a little too much. :)
What's not to like about math? The only thing that puzzles me is why
Mr. Magnuson uses English units instead of the standard MKS system
that scientists and engineers around the world use. The CGS system
would be fine also since we are talking about things with fairly small
mass.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(do ((a 1 b) (b 1 (+ a b))) (nil a) (print a))
Old Dog
news:be90tg$s6i$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# THE SCIENCE ANSWER:
Whew!
Or to put it another way, given that "for every action there is an equal and
opposite reaction":
The slide springs are rather precisely tuned to use that "opposite reaction" to
cycle the slide, ejecting the spent case and chambering another round. (When I
say "precisely", consider that even using non-standard ammo may require a change
of springs.) Now when you "limp wrist", what you are really doing is allowing
too much of that "opposite reaction" to be transferred to the frame instead of
being concentrated on the slide. The springs have less energy to work against,
and hence they work "too good" - they don't allow the slide to travel it's
normal distance. The result is a jam, either from cases not being ejected
forcefully enough to clear the ejection port, or the ejection port closing too
quickly. OR the slide may not go back far enough to catch the tail of the next
cartridge in the magazine; or if it does, since it is not starting from it's
normal fully compressed position it may not have enough force to properly seat
the cartridge in the chamber.
-Old Dog
(Corrections welcome)
Colonel Denier
19 because she had shot it fairly well in the past. But her hands are
so small she couldn't really get her forearm lined up behind the grip,
so it jammed repeatedly. We discussed the proper grip for the Glock
(high grip, thumbs forward, rear of grip nestled in web of hand), but
she just couldn't reach the trigger when gripping the pistol properly.
When I shot the gun I had no malfunctions. The ammo was relatively
mild reloads. It may have not been a problem with full power carry
ammo.
We just avoided the problem by trading guns. When she shot my Beretta
96 Compact things were much better, it never malfunctioned no matter
how much limpwristing.
Old Dog
news:beec7b$a9p$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
I should have added that the vector of force in an "equal and opposite"
situation is 180 degrees in any plane. That means that as the gun is fired, the
force is initially straight back down the line of the barrel, the ideal
direction for moving the slide. If the gun is allowed to come up after the shot,
the vector of force remains the same; however the vector is no longer aligned
with the slide, but is at an angle to it, so that it tends to continue to push
the frame around the axis of rotation rather than to cycle the slide.
Don't you just love physics?
I imagine that you would not get "limp-wristing" in a gas-operated action
(assuming one existed in a handgun configuration and caliber) because the force
exerted by the gas pressure works independent of direction. Correct?
-Old Dog.
Doug T
# What's not to like about math?
Nothing at all. I rather like it myself.
Doug T
All things in moderation. Someone once said
David Steuber
# The slide springs are rather precisely tuned to use that "opposite
# reaction" to cycle the slide, ejecting the spent case and chambering
# another round. (When I say "precisely", consider that even using
# non-standard ammo may require a change of springs.) Now when you
# "limp wrist", what you are really doing is allowing too much of that
# "opposite reaction" to be transferred to the frame instead of being
# concentrated on the slide. The springs have less energy to work
# against, and hence they work "too good" - they don't allow the slide
# to travel it's normal distance. The result is a jam, either from
# cases not being ejected forcefully enough to clear the ejection
# port, or the ejection port closing too quickly. OR the slide may not
# go back far enough to catch the tail of the next cartridge in the
# magazine; or if it does, since it is not starting from it's normal
# fully compressed position it may not have enough force to properly
# seat the cartridge in the chamber.
#
# (Corrections welcome)
You've pretty much nailed it. The recoil energy is stored in the
recoil spring when the slide moves back. When the frame moves back
too fast as well, then the energy to cycle properly was lost.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(do ((a 1 b) (b 1 (+ a b))) (nil a) (print a))
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dwight Gruber
--DwightG
"Old Dog" <dogb...@atlantic.net> wrote in message
news:befrtq$j8v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
force
> ...
Don Thompson
You have completely violated the law. "Weight" is meaningless in this case.
Mass is not. Therefore whether or not we "allow the weight of the frame to be
zero" it is the mass of the frame which we must account for and so long as the
mass of the frame is great enough to resist the force imparted by the firing
of the round on the slide > spring > and subsequent cocking of the hammer the
pistol will function supported by the wrist or floating in space.
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD
Ol'fashioned
others. I have fired many handguns, the only one I had trouble with
was a Colt Combat Commander..9mm. It consistently jammed when I fired
it. My son had no problem with it. I am researching what to buy for
self protection. I have large hands, but very small wrists..small
frame, 5'4", but only 98lbs. I am a RN who goes into many different
neihborhoods, travels isolated roads, etc. I can get a concealed
carry, no prob. I need something easy to carry, but with enough punch
to protect. Anybody with suggestions?
Harold Burton
"Ol'fashioned" <boano...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:beikam$n3t$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Colt Combat Commander..9mm. It consistently jammed when I fired
# Anybody with suggestions?
I believe you can now get .357 Mag revolvers that load as many as seven
rounds. Should not have a limp wristing function problem with them. (And you
can shoot .38 Special and/or .38 Special +P instead of the hotter stuff, if
it pleases you.)
El Viejo
David Steuber
# it. My son had no problem with it. I am researching what to buy for
# self protection. I have large hands, but very small wrists..small
# frame, 5'4", but only 98lbs. I am a RN who goes into many different
# neihborhoods, travels isolated roads, etc. I can get a concealed
# carry, no prob. I need something easy to carry, but with enough punch
# to protect. Anybody with suggestions?
Look at the Smith & Wesson J-Frame revolvers. Also rent a Kel-Tec
P-11 and see if it works for you. If you can, check out a Kahr P9 or
PM9.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(do ((a 1 b) (b 1 (+ a b))) (nil a) (print a))
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Steuber
# I imagine that you would not get "limp-wristing" in a gas-operated
# action (assuming one existed in a handgun configuration and caliber)
# because the force exerted by the gas pressure works independent of
# direction. Correct?
If it was indeed purely gas action, that should be the case. I think
the Dessert Eagles work that way, rotary bolt and all.
HK calls the P7 series recoil operated with gas retarded action. In
spite of that, I would call them a blow-back action with the gas
delay. The slide to frame mass ratio is smaller than many compat
pistols. I would say it is at least as high as a government model
sized 1911 if not higher. They are also very reliable. The fact of
the full grip doesn't hurt either.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(do ((a 1 b) (b 1 (+ a b))) (nil a) (print a))
-----------------------------------------------------------
Doug T
#
# > ...
#
# You have completely violated the law. "Weight" is meaningless in this case.
# Mass is not. Therefore whether or not we "allow the weight of the frame to be
# zero" it is the mass of the frame which we must account for and so long as the
# mass of the frame is great enough to resist the force imparted by the firing
# of the round on the slide > spring > and subsequent cocking of the hammer the
# pistol will function supported by the wrist or floating in space.
#
# Don Thompson
Sorry I should have used the term mass, I don't recall now why I didn't. Weight
has a meaning, it implies a mass accelerated by gravity and that implied mass
and it's inertia or lack thereof is what we are interested in. I violated no
law. As a thought experiment it is perfectly all right to use a frame of zero
mass unobtianium. I chose zero mass to exaggerate the physics. If one has any
understanding of what is going on should be able to see clearly that if a pistol
is floating in space and has a slide with mass and a frame with no mass what
will happen when fired. Maybe I should up the spring rate to infinity just to
make sure.
Doug T
Dennis D. Carter
Dennis D. Carter
"Harold Burton" <hwbu...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:bektif$jk1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
you
> ...
if
> ...
tango
news:beikam$n3t$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
> ...
A 38 special revolver would be a good choice. There are many models but I
have a Taurus model 817 which is a seven shot and is reasonably priced. It
would be best if you could find a dealer with an indoor range or a shooting
range where you could try different guns out before buying.
J David Phillips
limp wristing does, in fact, exist :-)
--
J David Phillips
1925 S.E.Hwy 19
Crystal River, Florida, 34429
352-795-2777
flm...@tampabay.rr.com
"Rrafael J. Azanza" <bi...@aim.edu.ph> wrote in message
news:be6cuf$kpf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Can someone briefly explain exactly what "limp-wristing" means? I find
# it hard to believe that allowing one's wrist to wobble a bit at
# detonation can actually cause the slide not to zip all the way back
# or prevent it from picking up a round on the return. So the pistol is
# allowed to jiggle around a bit; why should that cause a problem for
# the cycling?
Christopher Morton
<flm...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
#Take a walk through South Beach in Miami any weekend, and you'll know that
#limp wristing does, in fact, exist :-)
All joking aside, as a heterosexual I've got a hell of a lot more
respect for any gay gun owner than I'll ever have for the straightest
BATF agent.
It isn't MANDATORY to spit on the constitution in order to be a
homosexual.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
Brian Nolen
"J David Phillips" <flm...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bemdom$5r1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Take a walk through South Beach in Miami any weekend, and you'll know that
# limp wristing does, in fact, exist :-)
#
# --
# J David Phillips
Same here on the leftist coast... Most easily observed in areas of San
Francisco... <EG>
Brian