45-70 New England Firearms
SGT-GUNS
loads published in reloading manuals...any info
appreciated....sgtguns@frontiernet.net
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Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Clark Magnuson
I also wondered if it was up to 1)Trapdoor, 2) lever action, 3)Modern
single shot.
I did some calculations on action strength and posted them here on
rec.guns. Errors were found and corrected. The bottom line was the rifle
can take allot more than the brass.
I loaded up some trapdoor loads and shot one. WOW! DOES IT KICK! It
combines the sharp painful kind of kick with the big, push you a long
way kind of kick. That rifle is just too light for Trapdoor loads.
I have never fired that gun again, let alone with "Modern Single Shot"
loads.
Clark
fl...@alaska.net
# I am looking for good reload info for a NEF in 45-70....can i use the Marlin
# loads published in reloading manuals...
Several references list the NEF as 'okay' for Marlin-level loads.
However, firing a 400 grain bullet at 1800 fps out of the little NEF
will be an experience you won't forget. My 25 year old H&R ( with the
old cast frame and limited strength ) gets pretty frisky with the 300
grain bullets at this velocity.
Jay T
Steven Kirby
# I am looking for good reload info for a NEF in 45-70...can i use the Marlin
# loads published in reloading manuals...any info
# appreciated....sgtguns@frontiernet.net
I'm just getting started doing the same thing myself. I have heard that it
is possible to use the "Marlin" loads, but not the "Ruger" loads in the
HandiRifle. I can't verify that personally, perhaps someone else will be
able to do so. I'm inclined to proceed with caution.
Paul Matthews, author of "Forty Years with the 45-70", has a lot of good
things to say about loading a 300-400 grain bullet on top of 15-17 grains of
Unique. This is a reduced load that apparently approximates the older
black powder loads for the .45-70. At first blush, this probably would do
OK for deer at close range (~100 yards). I'm planning on starting with such
a load, we'll see how it goes.
One cautionary note worth mentioning. The Alliant Powders reloading data
web site (http://recipes.alliantpowder.com) lists 15 grains of Unique as a
maximum charge (it's under Cowboy Action Loads). I expect that's for the
benefit of folks shooting original or replica Trapdoors and that the NEF
could handle a couple of more grains of Unique without any problems. But
that's just a guess.
--steve
Litsios
for them.
LITZ
Beanpole
with sub-Springfield loads. I heard that New England Firearms bought
Harrington & Richards and H & R made a "Shikari". I don't know what it was
but all of my reloading data says it ain't too strong. Anyway, without
condoning his loads, here they are:
300 grain Sierra HP on top of 47.0 grains of H4198 and a CCI 200 primer for
an estimated 1900fps.
350 grain Speer FP on top of 44.0 grains of H4198 and a CCI 200 primer for
an estimated 1800fps. This load isn't for those who dislike recoil.
Like I say, I don't recommend these loads because I have no data on the
strength of the little rifle. The barrel looks plenty thick enough to
handle it but what about the break-open action?
This isn't much less than I shoot in my Ruger #1.
For light target work he shoots lead slugs with far less powder.
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45-70
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David L. Moffitt
"Clark Magnuson" <cmag...@home.com> wrote in message
news:87lg7e$r5a$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I have one too.
#
# I also wondered if it was up to 1)Trapdoor, 2) lever action, 3)Modern
# single shot.
#
# I did some calculations on action strength and posted them here on
# rec.guns. Errors were found and corrected. The bottom line was the rifle
# can take allot more than the brass.
#
# I loaded up some trapdoor loads and shot one. WOW! DOES IT KICK! It
# combines the sharp painful kind of kick with the big, push you a long
# way kind of kick. That rifle is just too light for Trapdoor loads.
#
# I have never fired that gun again, let alone with "Modern Single Shot"
# loads.
# Clark
I shoot 405 grains of lead pushed by 43 gr. of H4198 regularly in my H&R. If
I was afraid of the gun I wouldn't have bought it! Why not get your gunsmith
to put you a muzzle break on it?
David Moffitt Lifetime NRA Member----and damn proud of it!
"As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In
both instances, there is a twilight. And it is in such twilight that
we all must be aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we
become unwitting victims of the darkness."
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
David L. Moffitt
"Litsios" <lit...@worldpath.net> wrote in message
news:87lgpd$reb$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# NEF 45-70's are -NOT- built to handle Marlin loads. Use only trapdoor data
# for them.
#
# LITZ
And the source of this information is? The NEF/H&R rifles were built for
modern loads, not loads for antique rifles!
David Moffitt Lifetime NRA Member-----and damn proud of it!
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against
arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now
appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always
possible."
Vice President Hubert Humphrey
DRB41347
#for them.
Not True. I read all of this several months ago so I decided to call NEF and
ask. Call I did and the reply was they were built to handle the Marlin loads.
If you have a doubt as to the strength of a weapon, call the manufactor and ask
them. (978) 632-9393.
Litsios
LITZ
stevef
wrote:
#I have one too.
#
#I also wondered if it was up to 1)Trapdoor, 2) lever action, 3)Modern
#single shot.
#
#I did some calculations on action strength and posted them here on
#rec.guns. Errors were found and corrected. The bottom line was the rifle
#can take allot more than the brass.
#
#I loaded up some trapdoor loads and shot one. WOW! DOES IT KICK! It
#combines the sharp painful kind of kick with the big, push you a long
#way kind of kick. That rifle is just too light for Trapdoor loads.
#
Same experience. My shoulder won't take as much as the gun can dish
out. I tried many of the loads listed for modern single shots and had
no problems with the gun or the brass.
steve
> #I loaded up some trapdoor loads and shot one. WOW! DOES IT KICK! It
# #way kind of kick. That rifle is just too light for Trapdoor loads.
# #
I see there must be an influx of woosie syndrome around this forum. trapdoor
loads in a NEF does not kick. it is very mild.
you all that can't take it, go out and buy a 223 or 243 :) Leave the real
guns to the rest of us....... :) If you can't take a joke go out and by a 22
:)
Steve ICQ #486747
Clark Magnuson
I also wondered if it was up to 1) Trapdoor, 2) lever action, 3) Modern
single shot, 4)50,000 psi like a 458 win mag but less capacity.
The 3 loads for the 45/70 are the trapdoor 28,000 cup derated to 21,000
cup, lever action 28,000 cup, and modern single shots 35,000 cup. The
458 Win mag is 53,000 cup with a larger case capacity and it's belted
brass design.
I did some calculations on action strength and posted them here on
rec.guns. last September.. Errors were found:
1) Need to calculate the latch stresses [Peter Torvik]
2) Use thick wall formula on chamber strength
3) Use inside diameter of case for pressure calculations
4) No calculations for the breech of the receiver failing.
Corrective action: I have obtained the formula for tearing an L shaped
structure as the shear plus the bending stress. The bending stress is
the
bending moment divided by the section modulus. The bending moment is the
force time the distance. The section modulus for a
rectangle cross section is B times D squared divided by 6. Where B is
the left to right dimension of the breech and D is the front to back.
This calculation is long because every horizontal cross section of the
breech
has different dimensions.
Here is what I did to calculate the ability of a 45/70 Handi rifle to
take 50,000 psi.
The hinge pin is 3/8" in diameter and the case of the
cartridge is .5" in diameter. The force = (pressure) (area) = [50,000
psi][(.5)(.5)(Pi)/4] = 9817 pounds
The shear stress = force/ area = 9817 lb/ [[(3/8)(3/8)(Pi)/4](2)]=
44,444 psi {the (2) comes from the fact the pin will have to shear in
two places}
Heat treated 4340 steel has a shear yield of about 78,000 psi.
[At 50,000 psi chamber pressure] The latch lodges
between the receiver and barrel. The
contact is .16
x.61". The hinge pin is 16 degrees off the center of barrel measured
from the breech face. The shear force is then [sin (16 degrees)] 9817 lb
= 2706 lb of shear. The shear stresses = F/A = 2706/[[.16][.61]] =
28,000 psi shear stress on latching surface of barrel. The latch itself
sees 28,000 psi of compression.
The chamber has an O.D.=1.112" and an I.D.=.5"
The average tensile stress on a chamber = (pressure)(inside diameter)/
twice the
thickness of the walls = (50k psi)(.5)/[1.112 - .5] = 40k psi tensile
stress (thin walled formula)
Adjustment for thick walled: peak pressure to average pressure =
((1.112/.5)squared + 1)/ ((1.112/.5)squared -1)= 1.5
Peak stress = 1.5 average stress = 60k psi tension (thick walled
formula)
Heat treated 4340 steel tension yields at 230k psi.
The bottom line was that the NEF 45/70 is very strong and way over built
for 50,000 psi loads, but the brass and the human shoulder are not.
Clark
Litsios wrote:
> ...
fl...@alaska.net
# I have a 45/70 handi rifle...
# ...Heat treated 4340 steel tension yields at 230k psi...
I believe that there are still errors in the calcs - the calculated
force applied to the hinge pin was not based on the area on which the
chamber pressure actually works ( .048" diam ), but on the case rim (
0.50" diam ). The actual force will be slightly less than was
calculated.
Using ultimate yield stress for the calculations gives the pressure at
which the action will fail. Unfortunatley, it can be damaged sometime
before that pressure is achieved. We have to be careful which stress
value we use.....or we can damage the action at pressures well below
the "burst" point. Fortunately ( in this case ), these pressures are
pretty close to gether for many modern steels. Note that a safety
factor of four to six is normal for many modern firearms, so the NEF
would seem to be "way overbuilt", yet still it meets the norm for
modern manufacturers.
# ...The bottom line was that the NEF 45/70 is very strong and way over built
# for 50,000 psi loads, but the brass and the human shoulder are not.
Probably true, but simply asking NEF the question would have elicited
the response that their rifles are safe for "Marlin 1895-level" loads.
According to Speer this means 28,000 cup; Hornady considers it to be
40,000 cup. Good brass lasts fine at over 40,000 cup if the chamber
is not oversized. As correctly stated, the shooter's shoulder will
likely give out before the action does.
Jay T