Rust control
Joe Gugliemino
This keeps them out of sight of prying eyes and calms my somewhat
anxious fiancee.
This morning I had to get something out of the attic, and just for kicks
I pulled a few out of their hiding place to check on them. I was
shocked to see they had started rusting, one severely. Obviously I have
made a few mistakes in assuming that a) my attic was relatively dry;
b) the polyester sleeves would keep what moisture there was off the
guns; and c) potential damage to the woodwork from oiling outweighed
potential rusting from not oiling.
Now that I've had this revelation, I have two questions. What is the
best way to clean the rust off? Steel wool is the obvious choice, but I
don't want to damage the remaining finish any more than I have to. Is
there some sort of cleaning compound that I can use? The rust is
primarily on bolt handles, magazine boxes and receiver backs, although
there is a little on one scope, and my HK single shot has seen better
days.
Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
thought of applying silicone, oil, or WD40. I'm not too excited about
cosmoline - from what I've heard it's a long-term storage compound that
would have to be removed/reapplied whenever I wanted to head to the
range. Obviously I need more weathertight gun cases - any
recommendations?
Should I consider rebluing? What does that do to the value of the gun?
I've already damaged them by letting them rust, but I don't want to hurt
them more than I have to. What are the pros and cons? Are there other
options?
Thanks in advance,
--
Joe Gugliemino
go...@gilligan.webo.dg.com Voice: (508) 870-6318
Joe_Gug...@DGC.ceo.dg.com Phone messages routinely routed
Data General Corp., Westboro, Ma. to the nearest black hole...
[MODERATOR: Easy on the WD40!!!! It'll take the finish off faster than
rust....]
Clark Towle Gunsmith
#I've taken to storing my less-used guns in the attic in gun sleeves.
#This keeps them out of sight of prying eyes and calms my somewhat
#anxious fiancee.
#This morning I had to get something out of the attic, and just for kicks
#I pulled a few out of their hiding place to check on them. I was
#shocked to see they had started rusting, one severely. Obviously I have
#made a few mistakes in assuming that a) my attic was relatively dry;
#b) the polyester sleeves would keep what moisture there was off the
#guns; and c) potential damage to the woodwork from oiling outweighed
#potential rusting from not oiling.
#Now that I've had this revelation, I have two questions. What is the
#best way to clean the rust off? Steel wool is the obvious choice, but I
#don't want to damage the remaining finish any more than I have to. Is
#there some sort of cleaning compound that I can use? The rust is
#primarily on bolt handles, magazine boxes and receiver backs, although
#there is a little on one scope, and my HK single shot has seen better
#days.
Steel wool, 000X or 0000X will do it without damaging the remaining blue.
Don't use anything like Naval Jelly or anything like that or you'll remove
the blue for sure.
#Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
#thought of applying silicone, oil, or WD40. I'm not too excited about
#cosmoline - from what I've heard it's a long-term storage compound that
#would have to be removed/reapplied whenever I wanted to head to the
#range. Obviously I need more weathertight gun cases - any
#recommendations?
I've always had good luck with any of the pure silicone products. I've had
guns in storage for years after application of silicone and have never had any
rust problems (I live in very humid New England)
Oil, like motor oil or plain gun oil (any kind) or WD40 is not recommended.
The Moderator is correct in that WD40 can remove blueing.
Another consideration for long term storage is to choose a container that
will either completely seal out the elements, (PVC pipe) or choose a container
that will let the gun breath, (cotton cloth) to help prevent moisture buildup
from heating and cooling cycles. The ideal thing though is to choose a storage
location where the temperature does not vary. A closet somewhere inside the
house is a better storage location than the attic where considerable
temperature fluctuations occur. Without wasting lots of disk space on the
cause and effect thing, the daily heating/cooling of the guns and the
attendent moisture that occurs because of it is what causes and promotes rust.
#Should I consider rebluing? What does that do to the value of the gun?
#I've already damaged them by letting them rust, but I don't want to hurt
#them more than I have to. What are the pros and cons? Are there other
#options?
Steel wool should do the trick. Reblueing devalues a gun unless its a
clunker to begin with, so if the items in question have any collector status,
don't reblue them.
Andy Funk
#
Stuff deleted...
#
#Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
#thought of applying silicone, oil, or WD40. I'm not too excited about
#
# Joe Gugliemino
#
#[MODERATOR: Easy on the WD40!!!! It'll take the finish off faster than
#rust....]
Well, here's one data point. You milage may vary, etc., etc.
Before my gunsmith, and others in this newsgroup, strongly advised against
the foolishness of using WD40 as a cleaner/lubricant/preservative for blued
firearms, I used it exclusively and liberally for *years* on a blued Mauser
HSc. This gun still has an absolutely perfect finish.
I'm not convinced. I believe that WD40 prevents rust, probably by preventing
oxygen from being available. How this property might actively attack a rust
blued firearm is unclear to me.
Does anyone *really* know the chemistry involved here?
Does anyone have *firsthand* knowledge of WD40 damaging a finish?
Disclaimer: I have no connection with the makers of WD40, other than using
it around the house and liking the smell.
Dan Sorenson
to...@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith) writes:
# go...@gilligan.webo.dg.com (Joe Gugliemino) writes...
# Steel wool, 000X or 0000X will do it without damaging the remaining blue.
#Don't use anything like Naval Jelly or anything like that or you'll remove
#the blue for sure.
I clean my Ruger Old Army black powder by dipping it in nearly
boiling water for a few minutes. Once an emergency came up, and I left
it in there for a few hours. At a subsequent gun show, a gent was selling
his magic potion that cleaned anything. I handed him my gun, complete with
tarnishes, and he removed all of it without harming the nickel plate or
the bluing. The product? Wenol. It's a non-abrasive cleaner, and I now
recommend it highly. The high humidity of Iowa in summer means rust, and
I find it removed rust and not bluing on all my guns. Perhaps there is
something similar you might get? E-mail me for product information if
you are unable to find it.
##Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
##thought of applying silicone, oil, or WD40.
# Oil, like motor oil or plain gun oil (any kind) or WD40 is not recommended.
#The Moderator is correct in that WD40 can remove blueing.
The real reason I posted! I use WD-40 on my Remington model 48
12ga autoloader as both a lubricant and as an anti-moisture measure, and
it seems to work fairly well at both functions. The main reason I
started using it was that even gun oil became too viscous at -20F to
allow the action to cycle reliably, and WD-40 was a cheap and easy
solution. I'm not saying Dry-Slide won't work better, but none of the
bluing has been removed from my guns due to WD-40, and I figure an
opposing view is in order. After over 20K shells, it still works fine.
It also makes a good aternative to Hoppe's #9 solvent when you can't
get it. For that matter, so does diesel fiel or kerosene. All give me
a shiny barrel and clean action, but no harm to my blueing.
[MODERATOR: Well, a couple people have written to testify on behalf of
WD-40. I could swear I have seen the effects on bluing in the past, but
I don't have a specific example in mind now to support this. So for what
its worth, and being curious about this, I started a simple experiment in
the basement last night, and will report if I find anything interesting:
I am restoring a couple old bayonets, and, since I need to take the old
blue off with some of the crud before rebluing, I dipped half of the them
in WD-40 and am letting them sit out for a while. At regular intervals,
up until I get bored on the effort at least, I will clean a little of it
off and see if there is any obvious effect. My hope is that the advice
I gave before is true, since I always prefer the lazy man's way out, and
I'd love to avoid dusting up the house with rouge as inevitably happens
when I polish a piece down with the bench grinder.]
##Should I consider rebluing? What does that do to the value of the gun?
##I've already damaged them by letting them rust, but I don't want to hurt
##them more than I have to. What are the pros and cons? Are there other
##options?
# Steel wool should do the trick. Reblueing devalues a gun unless its a
#clunker to begin with, so if the items in question have any collector status,
#don't reblue them.
If the items have any collector status, you shouldn't have fired
them in the first place. If you fire a gun, then my opinion is that
you should not be worried about collector status in the first place.
I've fired my Winchester Canadian Centennial in .30-30 because it's a
shame not to do so, not because it might be worth something someday.
Just as a Shelby Cobra ought not to be driven so it might bring a
higher price at the car show, a gun that is to be a collectors item
should not be fired. If you own guns to shoot them, forget the
menial price differential and shoot the thing. That's what owning
a gun is about, isn't it?
<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1...@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven >
<vik...@iastate.edu | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
FSAC-SID
Joe Gugliemino writes:
#Now that I've had this revelation, I have two questions. What is the
#best way to clean the rust off? Steel wool is the obvious choice, but I
#don't want to damage the remaining finish any more than I have to. Is
#there some sort of cleaning compound that I can use? The rust is
#primarily on bolt handles, magazine boxes and receiver backs, although
#there is a little on one scope, and my HK single shot has seen better
#days
#
#Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
#thought of applying silicone, oil, or WD40. I'm not too excited about
#cosmoline - from what I've heard it's a long-term storage compound that
#would have to be removed/reapplied whenever I wanted to head to the
#range. Obviously I need more weathertight gun cases - any
#recommendations?
Having dealt with antique firearms and such in less than pristine
condition, I've had good results with non-abrasive polish (like Flitz)
and either a soft cloth for large areas or a Q-tip for small rust
spots. It pretty much leaves the finish alone, but will take out the
rust. It may take a while for more than a thin surface film of rust,
in which case abrasives and/or refinishing couldn't do much more harm
anyway.
I use a silicone-treated cloth for preservation, but I guess my main
technique is storing the guns in a dry location. WEathertight gun
cases would be a mistake unless used with chemical dessicants or
electric heating.
Ed Rudnicki erud...@pica.army.mil All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case." -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
Peter Cash
...
#Before my gunsmith, and others in this newsgroup, strongly advised against
#the foolishness of using WD40 as a cleaner/lubricant/preservative for blued
#firearms, I used it exclusively and liberally for *years* on a blued Mauser
#HSc. This gun still has an absolutely perfect finish.
#I'm not convinced. I believe that WD40 prevents rust, probably by preventing
#oxygen from being available. How this property might actively attack a rust
#blued firearm is unclear to me.
Me too. The main reason I _never_ use WD40 on a gun is that it is a
penetrating oil. If you get it on your ammo, it is very likely to get into
the case and contaminate the primer. It will then no longer go bang. In
fact, I use WD40 to deactivate primers in cases that I've botched up while
reloading.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. |
Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |ca...@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Russ Kepler
# ..... My hope is that the advice
#I gave before is true, since I always prefer the lazy man's way out, and
#I'd love to avoid dusting up the house with rouge as inevitably happens
#when I polish a piece down with the bench grinder.]
If you *want* to remove the bluing use a dilute solution of
hydrochloric acid (available in bulk at hardware stores as "Muratic
acid". Don't let the fumes carry to anything with bluing that you
want to keep (do the cleaning outside) and be aware that hydrochloric
acid can be nasty stuff.
--
.signature: not found. Create?
Dan Sorenson
I've had a few requests to post information on Wenol, the
magic elixer I bought at a gun show a few years ago. I have no
affilliation with the manufacturers of this stuff, nor any self-
interest in promoting it. I'm just passing along information on
a product that I know works. Are the lawyers happy yet?
Wenol is made in W. Germany by Hohn & Hohn GmbH, D5657 Haan 1
(I'm German-impaired, but that looks like an address). The blurb
on the tube is "Cleans, polishes and preserves metal surfaces
and keeps them sparkling. Wenol for gold, silver, brass, copper,
pewter, chrome, stainless steel, aluminum, tin, painted surfaces,
ceramic tile and fiberglass. Not suitable for anodised aluminum.
(I wonder if it works on corns and bunions too?) The "o"'s
in the name above have that sideways colon sitting over them.
Imported by: Importe' par. (that apostrophe is over the "e")
There are instructions in both English and French.
The stuff looks like a toothpaste, really, and has a similar
consistency. Once you start rubbing it around it behaves like
Brasso or similar product, and I can't feel any grit when I rub this
stuff between my fingers. I have seen it somewhere else once, I
believe at a Wal-Mart or possibly a K-mart, but this one 100ml
tube has lasted me for about three years already and it's less than
half emptied. To use, simply squeeze a small amount onto the surface
and go to work with a cloth. When done, wipe it off with a soft
rag and you're finished. If I happen to see more of this someplace
I'll post where I saw it.
Clark Towle Gunsmith
In article <viking.7...@vincent1.iastate.edu>, vik...@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes...
#
## go...@gilligan.webo.dg.com (Joe Gugliemino) writes...
#
# The real reason I posted! I use WD-40 on my Remington model 48
#12ga autoloader as both a lubricant and as an anti-moisture measure, and
#it seems to work fairly well at both functions. The main reason I
#started using it was that even gun oil became too viscous at -20F to
#allow the action to cycle reliably, and WD-40 was a cheap and easy
#solution. I'm not saying Dry-Slide won't work better, but none of the
#bluing has been removed from my guns due to WD-40, and I figure an
#opposing view is in order. After over 20K shells, it still works fine.
#It also makes a good aternative to Hoppe's #9 solvent when you can't
#get it. For that matter, so does diesel fiel or kerosene. All give me
#a shiny barrel and clean action, but no harm to my blueing.
#
#[MODERATOR: Well, a couple people have written to testify on behalf of
#WD-40. I could swear I have seen the effects on bluing in the past, but
#I don't have a specific example in mind now to support this. So for what
#its worth, and being curious about this, I started a simple experiment in
#the basement last night, and will report if I find anything interesting:
#I am restoring a couple old bayonets, and, since I need to take the old
#blue off with some of the crud before rebluing, I dipped half of the them
#in WD-40 and am letting them sit out for a while. At regular intervals,
#up until I get bored on the effort at least, I will clean a little of it
#off and see if there is any obvious effect. My hope is that the advice
#I gave before is true, since I always prefer the lazy man's way out, and
#I'd love to avoid dusting up the house with rouge as inevitably happens
#when I polish a piece down with the bench grinder.]
In my experience the reasons for WD40 being responsible for damaging blueing
on guns in storage is it seems that WD40 does not provide the impenetrable
moisture barrier silicone does so moisture gets under it and thats how the
rusting/blueing removal happens.
Recently a S&W model 27 came into the shop that had been cleaned then
sprayed down with WD40, then stored in one of those zip up pistol rugs. The
side of the gun that was on the bottom of the rug was completely orange from
front to rear and severe pitting had occurred on the cylinder, the barrel and
under the grips. Once the rust had been removed, little blueing was left on
that side. Admittedly, pistol rugs act more like sponges than protectors so
guns should not be stored long term in them anyhow, but had the owner used a
silicone product he more than likely would not have destroyed the guns
finish.
I have had similar experiences with rifles and shotguns also so the above is
not a fluke.
WD40 is a good lube when used as a lubricant during firing and is an
excellent aid in cleaning and would more than likely be ok on a gun not being
stored *inside* a case, rug, etc. but I wouldn't bet any of my guns finishes
on it. :-)
It'll be interesting to read the Moderators findings.
[MODERATOR: So far nothing, though it would be surprizing to find
anything so quickly. I predict I'll run out of patience and want to
get on with my refurbishing ..... but stay tuned....]
John Bercovitz
(Peter Cash) writes:
#.... The main reason I _never_ use WD40 on a gun is that it is a
#penetrating oil. If you get it on your ammo, it is very likely to get into
#the case and contaminate the primer. It will then no longer go bang. In
#fact, I use WD40 to deactivate primers in cases that I've botched up while
#reloading.
I don't use WD40 (Water Displacer 40) on the mechanisms of guns because
it is a gumming oil - it will gum up the works if it sits in there long
enough. If you keep adding fresh WD40, it won't gum up because the fresh
stuff will dilute the old stuff. But it isn't a wonderful lube anyway.
Almost anything else is better as a lube. It seems to be a pretty good
water-displacer if you refresh it often enough. I'm trying a sort of
experiment on a crummy black powder pistol (a CVA). I'm cleaning it
only with WD40 and nothing else - no bp cleaners, no oils, nada. So
far I haven't gotten any rust at all which is more than I can say for
my success with the soap-and-water approach.
John Bercovitz (JHBer...@lbl.gov)
Lee Mellinger
:
: I've had a few requests to post information on Wenol, the
:magic elixer I bought at a gun show a few years ago.
: Wenol is made in W. Germany by Hohn & Hohn GmbH, D5657 Haan 1
:(I'm German-impaired, but that looks like an address). b
:The "o"'s
:in the name above have that sideways colon sitting over them.
:<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
I'm just marginally unimpaired with German, but I think I can help a
little bit. The double dots over the "o" are called an "umlaut" and
simply change the pronunciation. The name translates to Wen Oil, I
have no idea what Wen means but it is likely is or is derived from the
firms name. The address looks OK but it is just Germany now, not West
Germany.
Lee
"Nothing blasts forever" -- Keats on ammo.
|Lee F. Mellinger Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163 FTS 792-1163
|le...@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
John Bercovitz
(Russ Kepler) writes:
#If you *want* to remove the bluing use a dilute solution of
#hydrochloric acid (available in bulk at hardware stores as "Muratic
#acid". Don't let the fumes carry to anything with bluing that you
#want to keep (do the cleaning outside) and be aware that hydrochloric
#acid can be nasty stuff.
Muriatic is great for de-rusting - it leaves a spongy, easily removed
iron mass behind when it converts the iron oxide to metal. _However_,
it is also A-1 at causing hydrogen embrittlement. So you must bake
out any parts which you've acid dipped if the parts are stressed at
all. Springs are especially sensitive inasmuch as they are regularly
highly stressed. Fortunately, it is simple to get rid of the hydrogen
with a low-temperature bake-out. For parts which are heat treated
about like springs (most parts) you won't hurt the temperature if you
bake out at 375F for 3 hours. Parts which are carburized are full-hard
on the surface so to avoid affecting their temper, you must bake out at
275F for 5 hours. By the way, plating, such as nickel plating, also
causes hydrogen embrittlement. So insist on a bake-out after plating
or bake it out yourself in your kitchen oven if it has decent temperature
control (say plus or minus 10 or 15 F).
John Bercovitz (JHBer...@lbl.gov)
[MODERATOR: Hey, thanks for the tip, John! By the way, my (known to
be short) patience on that WD-40 experiment may run out by monday. A
guy over in the physics shop on campus has offered to sandblast the
bayonet I am using in this experiment, getting me ready for polishing.]
Bill Meyers
#Once I do clean them up, how do I keep the rust from returning? I've
Brownell's sells a product ("VPI", I think) that inhibits rust in its
vicinity. Place the object to be protected in a more-or-less airtight
container, and put some of this white powder in with it. (I wrap some
in a bit of kleenex.) Works for me! [BTW, don't expect miracles --
I got rust anyway on a rifle that had slept with me in a swamp ... :-]
--------
Sen. Terry Sanford, who as Governor of North Carolina refused Police protection
to a Civil Rights march, supports your Right to Keep and Bear Sporting Goods.