The nintendo bashers...
John Kochmar
For the longest time, the Nintendo bashers were happy bashing the NES
for being an 8 bit machine, and how Nintendo was the anti-Christ of
game systems, what with their unholy control over the game market, and
how much better Sega was...
Then the SNES came out, and suddenly the bashers started harping on the
flicker, the slowdowns, and all of the other technical problems(!?) the
SNES had, and how much better Sega was...
Enter Smash-TV, a game that didn't have all of the slowdown problems.
Suddenly, Smash-TV is technically an easy game to implement without
slowdowns, and how any bozo could have written it on the SNES, much
better Sega is...
Blah Blah Blah...
Get a clue. Nintendo has done the things it has done to keep it's
market shares. This is not uncommon for *any* producer to do, to skate
just one side of anything they can legally get away with in order to
keep the maximum market share. There is no reason to think that either
Sega or Atari wouldn't have done what Nintendo did had they been given
the chance.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Sega system is a good system. But the
blind prejudice that a lot of the Nintendo bashers hold simply because
they don't like the fact that Nintendo has done what was in its best
interest as a company to ensure maximum profitiability irritates me.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled Nintendo bashing, already
in progress.
John
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kochmar Practice random kindness
koc...@sei.cmu.edu and senseless acts
SEI Computing Facilities of beauty
Dave Meeks
>
>Enter Smash-TV, a game that didn't have all of the slowdown problems.
>Suddenly, Smash-TV is technically an easy game to implement without
>slowdowns, and how any bozo could have written it on the SNES, much
>better Sega is...
No offense, and not bashing the SNES in anyway, but just because they
have one game of this quality that doesn't experience the dreaded
slowdown, it does not mean that they have conquered the problem. Let's
just wait to see if they follow this up with additional games without
slowdown, then I will be suitably impressed..
(Note: I finally got to play U.N. Squadron today... Good game, but there
was that damn slowdown.. Very noticeable in very many locations..)
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kochmar Practice random kindness
>koc...@sei.cmu.edu and senseless acts
>SEI Computing Facilities of beauty
--
David T. Meeks ||" Strange how laughter looks like crying
VMark Software, Inc. || with no sound.
uvmark!da...@merk.com || Raindrops taste like tears, without
davem%uvm...@merk.com || the pain."
Alex Di Ricco
>for being an 8 bit machine, and how Nintendo was the anti-Christ of
>game systems, what with their unholy control over the game market, and
>how much better Sega was...
>
>Then the SNES came out, and suddenly the bashers started harping on the
>flicker, the slowdowns, and all of the other technical problems(!?) the
>SNES had, and how much better Sega was...
>
>Enter Smash-TV, a game that didn't have all of the slowdown problems.
>Suddenly, Smash-TV is technically an easy game to implement without
>slowdowns, and how any bozo could have written it on the SNES, much
>better Sega is...
>
>John Kochmar Practice random kindness
>koc...@sei.cmu.edu and senseless acts
>SEI Computing Facilities of beauty
Actually, I think that the first person who suggested that Smash-TV
might not slowdown because of the non-scrolling backgrounds was a
S-NES owner.
ADR
Ralph Barbagallo
is seen as the Evil Empire of videogames. I mean pretty soon we'll be punished
for being SNES fans! :) "Are you now or have you ever been a memeber of the
Nintendo Fun Club, Mr. Barbagallo...ANSWER MY QUESTION!!"...heh..
I agree. Once a game comes out with no slowdown and minimal flicker, it's
no big feat because it's "easy to program a game like that". I mean, come on!
Can't they admit that the SNES' faults CAN BE CORRECTED?!!!! AND WE HAVE
SEEN AN EXAMPLE?!!!
_________________________________________________________________________
= = Editor of //\ =
= Ralph A. Barbagallo III = //_ \ R E N A =
= ----------------------- = // \ =
= nug...@genesis.nred.ma.us = THE Newsletter for video game information=
=_______________________________________________________________________=
= Also... Co-Editor of * * **** =
= * * * * I N D * T O R M =
=___________________ * * * _____ *** ________________________=
* * *
***
Teh Kao Yang
>
> I agree. Once a game comes out with no slowdown and minimal flicker, it's
>no big feat because it's "easy to program a game like that". I mean, come on!
>Can't they admit that the SNES' faults CAN BE CORRECTED?!!!! AND WE HAVE
>SEEN AN EXAMPLE?!!!
>
Precisely. It is no big feat. It is supposed to be easy to program.
Considering that the SNES is supposed to be a (ahem) technogically advanced
16-bit machine. You don't see Genesis owners flipping over a game just
because it has no flicker and slowdown.
Just shows you the sad state of SNES games.... just because a game has no
flicker and slowdown, it is considered the best SNES game ever....
As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
-tehkao
Christopher M Songer
>
>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>
Owning both a SNES && Genesis I feel qualified to speak: Yes, there are
glaring faults in the Genesis compared to the SNES. Color resolution
on the Genesis is too low. Every SNES game I have played has looked better
than Genesis games. The Genesis games really only look good when they
do "cartoonish" color. (Sonic, Quackshot, CoI) The real shame is that
the MegaCD does not correct this. Comparing "still frame" to "still frame"
on the Genesis && SNES, the SNES wins hands down.
Sound on the Genesis is too tinny. The SNES sports excellent (amazing,
superlative) sound. Further, the SNES includes adapters to a stereo
system -- one has to go out of their way to get one for the Genesis
that is electrically correct for the systems involved.
The Genesis has proved better at moving large numbers of objects on the
screen at one time. Still, original Genesis titles had the same difficulty.
The Genesis is a good game machine, but so is the SNES. Never-the-less
if one is going to list "glaring faults" (faults which cannot be corrected
by programmer effort) the Genesis has MORE than the SNES. The biggest
fault with the SNES is slowdown. This is possibly correctable via good
programming. The biggest problems on the Genesis are color resolution and
sound. These are not correctable via programming. (Though good pallette
use helps some.)
There are good games for both -- both systems are fun to play. Why post a
statement like:
>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
I can think of answers to this question but most are rooted in conjecture
about the poster. :)
-Chris
broadsword!ch...@ecn.purdue.edu (NeXTMail)
Isao Takeda
>screen at one time. Still, original Genesis titles had the same difficulty.
Say what!! Look at Herzog Zwei and Thunder Force 2 (both are
Technosoft games). Herzog Zwei slows down only when there are 100
objects moving with a fast scrolling background. I don't remember
seeing Space Harrier II slowing down, even though I have spent at least
200 hours on the game and it seems to be more complicating to program
than an average shooter. What I am trying to say is that newer Genesis
games are NOT any better than the first batch games when dealing with
the slowdowns.
IST, a proud member of the master race --- human race.
Marc J. Brown
>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>
>-tehkao
That would not be a justified comparison. It's like pointing out that the
original NES has mega slowdown and flicker, but we didn't see any of that
on the good ol' 2600, did we?
SNES Fault #1: Pathetic processor...
SNES Fault #2: ??? [insert highly exaggerated complaint here]
--
-Maruku Buranu (Marc Brown) mjb...@lonestar.utsa.edu
sytr...@inland.com
Christopher M Songer
>>The Genesis has proved better at moving large numbers of objects on the
>>screen at one time. Still, original Genesis titles had the same difficulty.
>
> Say what!! Look at Herzog Zwei and Thunder Force 2 (both are
>Technosoft games).
Say what what! :) Populous on the Genesis which also has 100's of figures
moving about slows down incredibly while on the SNES it does not.
(In fact I found Herzog Zwei to be playable only at the low levels
due to slowdown with large numbers of combatants.)
-Chris
John Oliveira
> Precisely. It is no big feat. It is supposed to be easy to program.
> Considering that the SNES is supposed to be a (ahem) technogically advanced
> 16-bit machine. You don't see Genesis owners flipping over a game just
> because it has no flicker and slowdown.
> Just shows you the sad state of SNES games.... just because a game has no
> flicker and slowdown, it is considered the best SNES game ever....
> As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
> faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>
> -tehkao
As a Genesis owner yes, I can think of glaring faults towards the Genesis.
I don't like the color that it supports and I don't like some of the resolution
in certain games. I have not been to impress with the Genesis even thought it
has a 68000 cpu. I've seen certain slowdown and fliker in some games. I've I
remember I think it was you you made rave reviews about how street of rage was
the best game for the Genesis. I hate to dissapoint you but this games suffers
a little from slowdown and flicker. I wish they made the characters much bigger
and in my opinion I think Final Fight is much better.
THe SNES may have a wimpy cpu but for some reason I've been more impress with
it. Every system has its fault, I guess you can't have everything.
Instead of bashing what system can or cannot do or my system is better than
yours, we should be bashing games that are been released so that we can avoid
them. I've seen a lot of games been released that needs to be bashed and I
can't believe the prices on these games.
John
Craig H. Heartwell
> faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>
> -tehkao
I claim that flicker and slowdown are actually only one fault (slowdown).
Just how many more can you name?
--
cr...@sae.com
Administrator, SNES/SFC Compendium
"You could learn alot from a dummy"
Teh Kao Yang
>In article <1992Mar1.1...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, c9e...@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Teh Kao Yang) writes:
>> As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>> faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>>
>> -tehkao
>
>I claim that flicker and slowdown are actually only one fault (slowdown).
>Just how many more can you name?
>
Gee. I didn't think this one little comment would cause so much trouble.
I typed the article at 4 am, so I was a little groggy. What I really meant
was that the SNES has one(just one, not many) BIG glaring fault. Everyone
happy now?
-tehkao
david r watters
>flicker and slowdown, it is considered the best SNES game ever....
>
>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
I just played the new Formula One racing game for the SF/SNES. Man does it
suck.
First problem: You can go around some of the tightest courses on the F1
circuit at a sustained 262km/h!! What the hell is the logic it that?
Second problem: It is simply F-Zero with different bitmaps. The flat scrolling
rotated background with zero detail was fine in F-Zero, but in a F1 racing
game it looks extrememly undetailed.
Third problem: Where did this damn slowdown come from? F-Zero didn't slow
down, so why does this game slow down when there are no more than 4 or 5
cars on the screen at the same time.
Fourth problem: Related to the first, this game is extremely unrealistic
and unaccurate. Since when do Formula One cars use Nitro? And with the
million dollar budgets of every team, why do you have to work your way through
races to be able to buy $500 tires??? Also, Why can you hit a wall at
280km/h and have your damage meter go up 5%?? Stupid!
I realize that they would like 10 year olds to buy this one too, but I am
pretty sure that at 10yrs. I knew that you could drive into a wall at max
speed 10 or 11 times in one race, and that you have to slow down around
some of the sharper corners.
I like the SNES Smash TV, and I had been waiting to see what this game was
like before I bought a SNES to get F-Zero, Smash, and this one. But it
SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David
Watters
--
"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars.
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars." - RUSH
David (wat...@cis.ohio-state.edu) | call sign: The Weasel!
"Eagles may fly, but a weasel will never get sucked into a jet engine!"
david r watters
>I just played the new Formula One racing game for the SF/SNES. Man does it
>suck.
Gosh, I would really have to agree with you Dave, you are right on the
money as are most of your posts!
>I realize that they would like 10 year olds to buy this one too, but I am
>pretty sure that at 10yrs. I knew that you could drive into a wall at max
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>speed 10 or 11 times in one race, and that you have to slow down around
>some of the sharper corners.
Obviously that should say "you can not drive"
Brian Bishop
Review: Beast Wrestler [GENESIS]
I'm was not a huge fan of fighting/wrestling games when they first
came out. I didn't really see what was so great about beating up an
unending stream of bad guys in a video game. But eventually I played
Double Dragon on the NES and surprisingly, I kind of liked it. The
different enemies had different attacks, there were weapons to pick up
(pipes, etc.) and the terrain changed from level to level. Later I
ficked up Final Fight for the SNES. This added a few twists (and
better graphics).
On a whim, I picked up "Beast Wrester" for the Genesis. This is
your basic wrestling game with the exception of the fact that the
wrestlers are cyborg beasts. You and your opponent (human or computer)
are the controllers that manipulate the creatures. Moves are either a
button, or a combination of a diag-press and a button. Each creature
also has its own special 'killer move' that it does when you press C.
Instead of ropes around the ring, there is a force-field which has the
same effect (yes, you can run and bounce off the force-field to
execute a flying bodyslam). Your goal (in tournament mode) is to
defeat the domestic champion cyborgs, then take on the international
opponents. Each foe is a different monster, some short and squat, some
tall and thin, some rather blobby, and each has different strengths
and weaknesses (your punches won't connect on a short and squat
opponent, for instance). Some moves can only be used when you and the
opponent are 'interlocked' that is, when you get close together and
grab each other's arms. Some of the basic moves are: tail whip, punch,
body slam, neck choke, tail wrap, bite (my descriptions - those may
not be the rulebook's names for them). The special attacks are things
like very high throws and body slams W-- the graphics here are kind of
neat, it cuts to a shot of a skyline with a big moon as your opponent
is flung high into the air. In fact, overall I would rate the graphics
on this cart as above average. The monsters are fairly large, and the
ring is shown as a 3/4 overhead view. The animation is a little jerky,
but functional.
There are two playing modes: match and tournament. In match mode,
you can pit any two monsters against each other. In tournament mode
you must always start with the same monster, and fight your way
through the domestic and foreign ranks. After every win, you are
awarded a cash prize. Cash is used in bewteen matches to upgrade your
monster through various training methods (the three main properties of
a monster are Power, Speed and Stamina). Eventually you can purchase
the key to the Genetic Lab, where you can combine the genes of your
monster with foes he has defeated.
The controls for this game are not what I would call swift, which
put me off at first. However, the learning curve isn't too bad, and
now I am well into the international league. The genetic mixing idea
is interesting, but I would like it better if you could start with a
wide variety of monsters and mix up a large collection of crossbreeds
- right now it appears that there are a small number of crosses
possible (you always start with the same monster, and have a choice of
two to cross with each time, so right now I only see the possibility
of four different results...). Overall I have to give this a mixed
review (no pun intended). It's fun, and I'll keep playing it, but it
wasn't worth the $60+ I paid for it. Definitely one to rent or find
used if you are so inclined....
--
Brian Bishop, Software Engineer, Zyga Corporation (br...@grebyn.com)
This is my posting's appendix. If it appears inflamed or unusually large,
please remove it promptly under sterile conditions before it becomes infected.
Louis R. Castro
>is seen as the Evil Empire of videogames. I mean pretty soon we'll be punished
>for being SNES fans! :) "Are you now or have you ever been a memeber of the
>Nintendo Fun Club, Mr. Barbagallo...ANSWER MY QUESTION!!"...heh..
>
> I agree. Once a game comes out with no slowdown and minimal flicker, it's
>no big feat because it's "easy to program a game like that". I mean, come on!
>Can't they admit that the SNES' faults CAN BE CORRECTED?!!!! AND WE HAVE
>SEEN AN EXAMPLE?!!!
^^
Woah, let me get this straight. One whole game comes out without flicker
and slowdown and the problem has been solved? Let's just wait to see
what comes out next. Besides how can 12+ games be wrong and ONE make
up for all of that?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
L. Rene' Castro voice:(512)-462-6241
Advanced Micro Devices fax:(512)-462-5156
5204 E. Ben White email:re...@dvorak.amd.com
Jock Cooper
> Exactly! Atari and SEGA are businesses just like Nintendo, however Nintendo
>is seen as the Evil Empire of videogames. I mean pretty soon we'll be punished
>for being SNES fans! :) "Are you now or have you ever been a memeber of the
>Nintendo Fun Club, Mr. Barbagallo...ANSWER MY QUESTION!!"...heh..
>
> I agree. Once a game comes out with no slowdown and minimal flicker, it's
>no big feat because it's "easy to program a game like that". I mean, come on!
>Can't they admit that the SNES' faults CAN BE CORRECTED?!!!! AND WE HAVE
>SEEN AN EXAMPLE?!!!
^^
^^
Woah, let me get this straight. One whole game comes out without flicker
and slowdown and the problem has been solved? Let's just wait to see
The answer is, YES, the problem has been solved, IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME.
Which is just what the poster said; this game is AN EXAMPLE of a game
without slowdown, proving it can be done.
Now, you are correct in pointing out that just because one programming team has
successfully developed a game without the slowdown problem, it does not
mean that all future games written by all programming teams will automatically
not have slowdown. No one is saying that.
HOWEVER it is a good bet that if one programming team has figured out
ways to program without slowdown, others will too, in time. This can
be seen in almost every single aspect of techological progress. Just
because one company figured out how to build the first color TV, not
every company could instantly do it, but soon they learned. Just because
one company (thru incremental progress) built a car that could exceed
50 miles per hour, not every other car company could instantly do so.
You don't even have to look outside the videogame industry. Just look
at early games vs. later games for ANY system: Apple //, IBM, Atari
2600, etc etc. Games started out simple and stupid for a given
system, and progressed gradually to slick and sophistocated.
This is all very obvious.
what comes out next. Besides how can 12+ games be wrong and ONE make
up for all of that?
Let's explore the logic of this last statement through analogy.
Picture Edison as he tries to invent the lightbulb. He knows that he
needs a filament that will conduct electricity, become hot to the
point of incandescents, and not burn up quickly. But he has to try
many many things, each time hopefully getting closer, before he
eventually comes up with one that actually worked (cotten thread
dipped in graphite or something, I can't remember exactly, but it
didn't burn up as quickly). Now does edison say, "Well, I did produce
a working light bulb, but just look at all those 100s of filaments I
tried that didn't work. I guess I haven't really been successful in
getting this idea to work after all." NOT. What a stupid assertion.
Progress is gradual. At each stage of a technology's developement you
evaluate it on its current state, not on the steps it took to get there.
"The Mac IIci is an excellent computer, but just look at all those old
early Macs that were slow, weak, and had small screens. The speed and
power of my IIci just can't seem to make up for all of that."
Nuff said,
Jock
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jock Cooper SNES vs. Genesis? Buy both.
jo...@hammer.idsila.com
uunet!hammer!jockc
Joshua Osborne
[...]
>The answer is, YES, the problem has been solved, IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME.
>Which is just what the poster said; this game is AN EXAMPLE of a game
>without slowdown, proving it can be done.
>
>Now, you are correct in pointing out that just because one programming team has
>successfully developed a game without the slowdown problem, it does not
>mean that all future games written by all programming teams will automatically
>not have slowdown. No one is saying that.
>
>HOWEVER it is a good bet that if one programming team has figured out
>ways to program without slowdown, others will too, in time. This can
That's a good point, but IF the reason Smash TV doesn't suffer from
slowdown because it has no scrolling background and uses a "low res"
display and doesn't have lots of big sprites then that can't be used to
avoid slowdown in games that need big sprites/scrolling background/hires.
Now if the limitation is (say) scrolling backgrounds you may see alot fewer
games using them in the future which will eliminate slowdown, but at
the price of "no more scrolling shooters/chop-suki". Or at least until
someone figures out a way to make fast scrolling backgrounds (if there
is one). Whatever the limit it is likely that there are games that can
avoid it and still be fun.
[...]
> what comes out next. Besides how can 12+ games be wrong and ONE make
> up for all of that?
>
>Let's explore the logic of this last statement through analogy.
>
>Picture Edison as he tries to invent the lightbulb. He knows that he
>needs a filament that will conduct electricity, become hot to the
>point of incandescents, and not burn up quickly. But he has to try
>many many things, each time hopefully getting closer, before he
>eventually comes up with one that actually worked (cotten thread
>dipped in graphite or something, I can't remember exactly, but it
>didn't burn up as quickly). Now does edison say, "Well, I did produce
>a working light bulb, but just look at all those 100s of filaments I
>tried that didn't work. I guess I haven't really been successful in
>getting this idea to work after all." NOT. What a stupid assertion.
Competely valid, as long as the "cure" isn't to negelect some things
that other games NEED that smash didn't.
--
str...@eng.umd.edu "Security for Unix is like
Josh_Osborne@Real_World,The Multitasking for MS-DOS"
"The dyslexic porgramer" - Kevin Lockwood
"NFS only behaves properly..." - jik@athena
"...when the computer is not drawing power." - rbj@uunet
jsho...@amherst.edu
> In article <1992Mar1.1...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c9e...@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Teh Kao Yang) writes:
>
>>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>>
>>-tehkao
>
> That would not be a justified comparison. It's like pointing out that the
> original NES has mega slowdown and flicker, but we didn't see any of that
> on the good ol' 2600, did we?
>
doesn't apply in this case anyway. Please elaborate.
John
Marc J. Brown
>In article <1992Mar2.0...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>, mjb...@lonestar.utsa.edu (Marc J. Brown) writes:
>> In article <1992Mar1.1...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c9e...@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Teh Kao Yang) writes:
>>
>>>As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
>>>faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?
>>
>> original NES has mega slowdown and flicker, but we didn't see any of that
>> on the good ol' 2600, did we?
>What do you mean? Your analogy really doesn't make any sense at all, and it
>doesn't apply in this case anyway. Please elaborate.
>
> John
I don't know why you can't see the truth behind my comparison. He was saying
that the SNES has all sorts of problems with it (truly an overstatement, since
the only problem resident is the crummy processor). Then he wants me to point
out something wrong with the Genesis. I COULD point out many games (especially
early in the Genesis history) which have unacceptable slowdown or overall poor
performance, but I prefer to show him what a ridiculous request he made:
Genesis is to SNES as Atari 2600 is to NES. The 2600 is clearly inferior
to the old NES (except for # of colors), but slowdown just wasn't there, while
it's most abundant in just about every NES cart. Meanwhile, the SNES is
technically superior to the Genesis, yet experiences slowdown (so far), which
is less apparent in the general Genesis cart library. See? It works.
--
Jock Cooper
In article <JOCKC.92M...@hammer.idsila.com> jo...@hammer.idsila.com (Jock Cooper) writes:
[...]
That's a good point, but IF the reason Smash TV doesn't suffer from
slowdown because it has no scrolling background and uses a "low res"
display and doesn't have lots of big sprites then that can't be used to
avoid slowdown in games that need big sprites/scrolling background/hires.
Now if the limitation is (say) scrolling backgrounds you may see alot fewer
games using them in the future which will eliminate slowdown, but at
the price of "no more scrolling shooters/chop-suki". Or at least until
someone figures out a way to make fast scrolling backgrounds (if there
is one). Whatever the limit it is likely that there are games that can
avoid it and still be fun.
You're right. I haven't seen Smash TV yet, so I can't really assess the
graphics as regards sprite size/resolution. It could be that part of the
slowdown solution _is_ avoiding trouble situations (mega sprite movement with
4 scrolling backgrounds, etc). Obviously, there are always situations that
slowdown is inevitable (even on the Genesis, as when Sonic drops a hundred
or so rings); so as the programmers become more familiar with and learn
the tricks of programming the SNES, they will also learn it's limitations
and how program around them. I just can't personally see how a scrolling
background (or several) could slow things down that much. Time will tell...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jock Cooper
jo...@hammer.idsila.com
uunet!hammer!jockc
Ho-Wei Wong
me.
Ho-Wei
Ho-Wei Wong
will pay $120-130 for it.