Nintendo Anti-Trust Investigation Announced
Marc Ries
"Nintendo possibly facing antitrust investigation -- A House committe is
expected to ask the Justice Department today to investigate videogame giant
Nintendo for possible antitrust violations.
[Nintendo] has been accused of taking actions that stifle competition from
other software makers.
... In announcing the action, U.S. Rep. Dennis Eckart, D-Ohio, chairman
of the small-business antitrust committe, said he uncovered a number of
concerns while investigating Nintendo..."
--
Marc Ries
ri...@venice.sedd.trw.com (ARPA)
somewhere!trwind!venice!ries (UUCP)
#include <std.disclaimer>
John Jung
>Yeah, which same investigation began when the aforementioned Rep was
>unable to obtain Super Mario Brothers (2, presumably) around
>Christmas last year. Unable to obtain a hot new video game around
>Christmas?? An obvious conspiracy! Give us a break, Dennis...
Maybe you can write off the inavailabilty of SMB2 last Christmas because of
all the screaming kids wanting a copy, but...
How can you simply ignore that Nintendo has a lock-out chip in all their
cartridges, and any cartrdiges that don't have the chip won't run on an NES?
And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo makes _all_ the cartridges and
that the game makers get their cartridges from only Nintendo? So, in theory, if
Nintendo doesn't think a game is up to their "quality", they can simply give
the company less cartridges. (Notice the huge supply of SMB2, a popular game,
but not a lot of Legendary Wings, a really bad game?)
And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo has (from other people on the
Net, as I reall) made threats to retailers that if they sold games without the
official Nintendo seal (read : if they sell Tengen games), that the retailler
might not get as many cartridges as everybody else does? (Tengen is the only
company that has created a simulated lock-out chip.)
Sure sounds like an obvious conspriacy to me!
Give me a break, Edward...
John
P.S. I've had an NES for about four years, and I have all of four games for it.
I find very few games on the NES to be fun.
Edward J Driscoll
>
>... In announcing the action, U.S. Rep. Dennis Eckart, D-Ohio, chairman
>of the small-business antitrust committe, said he uncovered a number of
>concerns while investigating Nintendo..."
>
Yeah, which same investigation began when the aforementioned Rep was
unable to obtain Super Mario Brothers (2, presumably) around
Christmas last year. Unable to obtain a hot new video game around
Christmas?? An obvious conspiracy! Give us a break, Dennis...
--
Ed Driscoll
The University of Michigan
e...@caen.engin.umich.edu
Allen P Jr Haughay
>
> How can you simply ignore that Nintendo has a lock-out chip in all their
>cartridges, and any cartrdiges that don't have the chip won't run on an NES?
>
Quality control. I like that the company takes the effort to insure that the
games sold for its machines do come up to some level of standards.
> And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo makes _all_ the cartridges and
>that the game makers get their cartridges from only Nintendo? So, in theory, if
>Nintendo doesn't think a game is up to their "quality", they can simply give
>the company less cartridges. (Notice the huge supply of SMB2, a popular game,
>but not a lot of Legendary Wings, a really bad game?)
>
There really isn't that huge a supply of SMB2. It depends on where you live.
Legendary Wings is all over where I am located. Nintendo sells the cartridge
bodies, true. I have seen other companies make and sell their own cartridge
bodies as well...the company that made gauntlet is an example.
> And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo has (from other people on the
>Net, as I reall) made threats to retailers that if they sold games without the
>official Nintendo seal (read : if they sell Tengen games), that the retailler
>might not get as many cartridges as everybody else does? (Tengen is the only
>company that has created a simulated lock-out chip.)
>
Again, quality control and protecting one's image is probably their intent, and
also probably the argument they would use.
>P.S. I've had an NES for about four years, and I have all of four games for it.
>I find very few games on the NES to be fun.
Hmmmm...to each his own.
Skip Haughay
ACIT-University of Delaware
John Jung
>In article <69...@merlin.usc.edu> jj...@sal-sun3.usc.edu (John Jung) writes:
>> How can you simply ignore that Nintendo has a lock-out chip in all their
>>cartridges, and any cartrdiges that don't have the chip won't run on an NES?
>Quality control. I like that the company takes the effort to insure that the
>games sold for its machines do come up to some level of standards.
And if this is quality control from Nintendo, then why the HELL isn't there
a lock-out chip in Japan? What, you mean that Nintendo has _so_ much faith that
they don't expect crummy games to appear in Japan?
The lock-out chip is for the U.S. market, and Nintendo has complete control
over the supply of the cartridges.
[Trying to no let Tengen games get sold]
>Again, quality control and protecting one's image is probably their intent, and
>also probably the argument they would use.
Ah, but this is monopolistic. Think about it : If Tengen's games don't get
sold because Nintendo leans on retaillers not to sell the games, then Nintendo
is driving Tengen out of the NES game market, and that's unfair because if
Tengen leaves the NES game market, then they didn't have a chance to prove how
good/bad their games are. Rather, Tengen got out because Nintendo _forced_ them
out.
IMHO, all of Nintendo's "quality control" __is__ monopolistic because it
doesn't let trashy games hit the NES market. Are we ever going to see "The
Sorority Nurses from Planet Spandex" for the NES? No, because Nintendo has
"quality control" over the amount of cartridges delivered and in some cases,
the game design itself. Similarly, you won't see any of those "pornographic"
games that hit the 2600 market (and lasted about two weeks :-) appear on the
NES, because Nintendo exercises "quality control."
If Nintendo doesn't like a game, it won't be made. Simple as that. And that's
monopolistic. Not to mention their "quality control"...
John
Ed Rotberg
>>... In announcing the action, U.S. Rep. Dennis Eckart, D-Ohio, chairman
>>of the small-business antitrust committe, said he uncovered a number of
>>concerns while investigating Nintendo..."
>
> Yeah, which same investigation began when the aforementioned Rep was
> unable to obtain Super Mario Brothers (2, presumably) around
> Christmas last year. Unable to obtain a hot new video game around
> Christmas?? An obvious conspiracy! Give us a break, Dennis...
>
> --
> Ed Driscoll
> The University of Michigan
> e...@caen.engin.umich.edu
It 's very sad that someone from my old alma mater could be so naive!!
Nintendo HAS used some very questionable business practices in the area of
sales for their Homes Enteretainment system. At least this has been my
observation based upon our comapny's efforts to compete in this market.
Seeing as how I'm employed by a company currently embroiled in numerous
lawsuits with Nintendo, some of which involve the above alledged practices,
I don't feel at liberty to be any more specific. Suffice it to say, Mr.
Driscoll, that you should know whereof you speak before you go flaming.
While I generally find myself questioning the government process at every
turn, not being privy to the FACTS concerning an issue, and spouting off
as "an authorty" on them is not recommended!!
Nintendo has gone to some very great lengths in order to secure their
dominance of the market share in home video games. I'm am not at all
surprised that the legality of some of these methods is now being questioned.
- Ed Rotberg -
The opinions expressed above are MY OWN, and do not reflect those of my
employer, Atari Games, nor, apparently, of other alumni from my alma mater.
No News is Blave News
>In article <52...@udccvax1.acs.udel.EDU> sk...@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Allen P Jr Haughay) writes:
>>In article <69...@merlin.usc.edu> jj...@sal-sun3.usc.edu (John Jung) writes:
>>> How can you simply ignore that Nintendo has a lock-out chip in all their
>>>cartridges, and any cartrdiges that don't have the chip won't run on an NES?
>>Quality control. I like that the company takes the effort to insure that the
>>games sold for its machines do come up to some level of standards.
>
>
>[Trying to no let Tengen games get sold]
>>Again, quality control and protecting one's image is probably their intent, and
>>also probably the argument they would use.
>
> Ah, but this is monopolistic. Think about it : If Tengen's games don't get
>sold because Nintendo leans on retaillers not to sell the games, then Nintendo
>is driving Tengen out of the NES game market, and that's unfair because if
>Tengen leaves the NES game market, then they didn't have a chance to prove how
>good/bad their games are. Rather, Tengen got out because Nintendo _forced_ them
>out.
I agree totally that Nintendo has an unfair monopoly. A prime example is
the game TETRIS. Tengen first introduced it without Nintendos consent, at
the begining of this year. Now they are being sued by Nintendo and can
not sell their game. On top of that, Nintendo just marketed their own version!
Now obviously the issue can't be quality control because the TENGEN version
is FAR FAR better then the Nintendo version!!! I have played both. If
Nintendo was interested in the quality of their games, they would let
Tengen sell theirs. I know many people still tring to get copies of the
Tengen version. They are getting more and more scarce.
mark
John G Leo
>I agree totally that Nintendo has an unfair monopoly. A prime example is
>the game TETRIS. Tengen first introduced it without Nintendos consent, at
>the begining of this year. Now they are being sued by Nintendo and can
>not sell their game. On top of that, Nintendo just marketed their own version!
>Now obviously the issue can't be quality control because the TENGEN version
>is FAR FAR better then the Nintendo version!!! I have played both. If
>Nintendo was interested in the quality of their games, they would let
>Tengen sell theirs. I know many people still tring to get copies of the
>Tengen version. They are getting more and more scarce.
As was pointed out before, this is a separate issue from the lockout
chip controversy. I hope someone from Atari will correct me if I'm
wrong, but as far as I know Tengen thought they had the rights to Tetris
which they got from a British company. Nintendo on the other hand went
directly to the game's designer, who knew nothing of this, and got the
rights from him. That is why the Tengen version has been removed,
because apparently they didn't have the rights to make a home version of
the game. Has it been decided in court yet which one is legal?
All I've heard so far from the net has been a lot of speculation about
Nintendo's supposed monopoly, and I'd like to hear some specifics from
people who really know. I don't see how Nintendo's use of the lockout
chip has anything to do with a monopoly, although perhaps one reason
they are doing it is to make money off each cartridge. Did Tengen
request the right to make games for the NES legitimately and get
refused? Or did they just start making the games without contacting
Nintendo in order to make a greater profit off them (or whatever)? If
the latter case I cannot feel any sympathy for them.
One rumor I remember hearing (perhaps from the net) is that Nintendo was
perhaps putting pressure on companies not to make games for other
systems. If this is true then certainly this is wrong. But as major
companies such as Namco, Hudson and Capcom are all making games for
other systems as well as Nintendo (and are approved to make games for
the Super Famicom), I wonder if there is any evidence for this.
In any case, let's not waste time with speculation. I'd like to hear
some facts, if anyone knows them.
Shumi wa nandesuka, sensei. `/ / | | John Leo
--- Oreka? Benkyou o oshierukoto dayo. | --|-- l...@tds.lcs.mit.edu
Iyanaseikaku desune. \ / --| / . | / /| l...@athena.mit.edu
--- Omae no shumi wa nandayo. -| / | / / |
Benkyou o osowarukoto desu. --| \/ \/ / \| (Kazoku Geemu)
Rob Finley
> How can you simply ignore that Nintendo has a lock-out chip in all their
>cartridges, and any cartrdiges that don't have the chip won't run on an NES?
Despite a previous response that the cartridges don't contain a graphics
sprite controller, I still hold the opinion that it isn't a lockout chip.
And, unless you want all the games to look the same, I don't see
an easy solution to this until you can design a chip on a '386, print
it off on your laser printer and plug it in.
Sorry guys...
John Jung
[Tetris discussion deleted.]
>I don't see how Nintendo's use of the lockout
>chip has anything to do with a monopoly, although perhaps one reason
>they are doing it is to make money off each cartridge.
This a monopoly on Nintendo's part, because they are the _only_ people who
supply companies with the cartridges. Since there is the lock-out chip, that
means that anyone who wants to make a game for the NES, has to get clearance
from Nintendo. If Nintendo doesn't like the game (or they have a similar idea
being worked on at the time), they can simply deny the cartridge supply for the
game maker.
Why should companies be __FORCED__ to get all the cartridges from Nintendo?
Why can't an outside company (like Tengen) make their own games and flood the
market? Nintendo is CONTROLLING the NES market because they control the
majority of the cartridges. If companies don't like it, they can't do anything
about it (because Nintendo has most of the cartridges) and live with it, or get
out of the NES market.
Why the heck do you think Nintendo put those commercials saying "look for the
Nintendo seal of approval"? That was a deliberate attempt to get people to not
buy Tengen games, because Tengen games don't have the "seal of approval".
(Tengen doesn't have the "seal of approval" because they don't buy their
cartridges from Nintendo.) Nintendo didn't like the idea of and outside game
maker making games without first clearing the games with Nintendo.
And you don't call these monopolistic tactics?
John
John G Leo
> [Please see the referenced article for the specifics.]
> And you don't call these monopolistic tactics?
Perhaps I have a limited notion of "monopoly," but I see nothing wrong
with Nintendo being able to determine who makes games for their system.
Wasn't it the case that Sega had even stricter controls for the Master
System (perhaps not allowing anyone else to make games for it)? I don't
know how the business practices work, but it seems routine for game
systems that developers must get licenses to produce games for that
system. The only reason people seem to care that Nintendo does this is
that the system is so popular. And many people contend that one reason
it has maintained its popularity is due to Nintendo's control of the
software.
What I would think of as a monopoly would be Nintendo trying to drive
other systems (Sega, NEC, Atari, etc) out of the market through the use
of unfair business practices (rather than trying to make a better
product). There is a clear distinction between this and the above, and
that's one reason I'd like more information on just what Nintendo is
being accused of.
Geoffrey K Kim
> This a monopoly on Nintendo's part, because they are the _only_ people who
>supply companies with the cartridges. Since there is the lock-out chip, that
>means that anyone who wants to make a game for the NES, has to get clearance
>from Nintendo. If Nintendo doesn't like the game (or they have a similar idea
>being worked on at the time), they can simply deny the cartridge supply for the
>game maker.
Not only that, but Nintendo can (and allegedly has) use this to price fix
products from other manufacturers by giving limited numbers of cartridges
and forcing them to charge a high price to recover costs. This prevents
companies from flooding the market with cheapie titles (like "Space Vixens
from Spandex") and taking valuable sales dollars away from Nintendo.
Since they have this ability to control supply and demand (and have
allegedly used that ability), they have an unfair advantage. (At least
that's what it says in MY economics book. 8-))
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| kim @beowulf.UCSD.EDU (Home of the Garden Weasles) |
| "... ENGAGE!" -- Jean Luc Picard, STTNG |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Lazlo Nibble
>> I don't see how Nintendo's use of the lockout
>> chip has anything to do with a monopoly, although perhaps one reason
>> they are doing it is to make money off each cartridge.
>
> Why should companies be __FORCED__ to get all the cartridges from
> Nintendo? Why can't an outside company (like Tengen) make their own
> games and flood the market?
I don't know, why can't they? Tengen obviously reverse-engineered
their way around the lockout chip. Nothing is preventing other
companies from doing the exact same thing, except maybe their lack of
technical knowhow.
Any attempts by Nintendo to bully Tengen out of the market (by
threatening retailers with short supplies and the like) are pretty
clearly monopolistic, not to mention sleazy. But there's nothing wrong
with making it difficult for third parties to write software that runs
on their machine without their help.
Lazlo (la...@ariel.unm.edu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No Pimento Loaf!" -- Lunchmeat McBarcode's Guide to Loving
Lyle Rains
convince any Nintendo fans, but enough is enough.
The following are my personal opinions, and not necessarily those of my
employer (Atari Games, parent of Tengen). I base these opinions on the
facts of the events as related by those directly envolved in the Nintendo
licensing and litigation. I believe these reports to be true.
From <1989Dec12.0...@athena.mit.edu>, l...@athena.mit.edu (John G Leo):
> [stuff on TETRIS, Tengen vs. Nintendo deleted]
> As was pointed out before, this is a separate issue from the lockout
> chip controversy. I hope someone from Atari will correct me if I'm
> wrong, but as far as I know Tengen thought they had the rights to Tetris
> which they got from a British company. Nintendo on the other hand went
> directly to the game's designer, who knew nothing of this, and got the
> rights from him.
The version I know is different. We licensed Tetris from MirrorSoft, who
represented to us that they had the rights to license the software to us.
We developed a prototype and as a licensee of Nintendo showed them that
prototype before Tengen started making its own cartridges. Only after
this later event, in a puposeful attact on Tengen, did Nintendo approach
the Russian licensing agency to see if they could undo Tengen's deal.
The MirrorSoft agreement gave them the rights for "computers," specifically
excluding only HAND-HELD LCD games. Nintendo in essence said to the
Russians (the following is my interpretation of the events), "If you will
reinterpret your agreement with MirrorSoft so as to also exclude home
video games, then we will pay you a lot of money for the license." Never
mind that Nintendo already provides all the accessories in Japan to turn
a Family Computer (note the name) into a full computer, and has announced
plans to do so for the NES as well. So they rewrote the agreement after the
fact, and thus screwed Tengen. The judge in the case looked at the paper-
work and not at the backroom antics, and issued an opinion in favor of
Nintendo, so it appears we may have been raped legally.
> [more deleted...] I don't see how Nintendo's use of the lockout
> chip has anything to do with a monopoly... Did Tengen
> request the right to make games for the NES legitimately and get
> refused?
>
> One rumor I remember hearing (perhaps from the net) is that Nintendo was
> perhaps putting pressure on companies not to make games for other
> systems. If this is true then certainly this is wrong.
Nintendo allows no licensee to build their own cartridges. It's part of
the license. Nintendo allows a MAXIMUM of 5 new titles per year per
licensee. Nintendo will not allow a title on the NES to be released
for other home game formats for a period of time. It's all in the
license. All these things are calculated to make sure all the business
goes through Nintendo, and no licensee can get enough of the business
to ever become a threat to Nintendo, and that no competing game systems
can have the same titles.
After Tengen started building their own cartridges, Nintendo pressured
all the major retailers to not carry Tengen product. The result is that
Tengen's current distribution channel is a fraction of what it had been.
Tengen still manufactures and ships NES carts, but you won't find 'em
at the major Nintendo retailers, 'cuz they're all scared shipmentless of
what Nintendo might do to 'em if they fell out of line. When you
realize that Nintendo business was the single largest profit contributor
at Toys-R-Us last year, and that Nintendo "allocates" its tight product
supply, you can understand why.
There's more, but you get the picture.
Hmmmm... do the words "EVIL MONOPOLY" start coming to mind? I hope
that Nintendo gets sliced and diced by the Justice department. It
couldn't happen to a nastier bunch of guys.
--
/* Lyle Rains <-- Any stupid or offensive opinions above are all his.
* Atari Games <-- We make arcade video games, not product announcements.
* Milpitas, CA <-- OK, so maybe it's not Alviso. But it's home.
*/
David E. Sheafer, Class of 1989
Thats right, an investigation that has been ongoing for about a year before
any actions were filed against the company. In addition Atari and Sega, among
others are suing Nintendo for the same reasons, and being someone who has been
selling Nintendo in a retail chain for the last 18 Months, I'd say most of the
allegations are true. Those who on Nintendo (I dont) should be glad about this
action as once there is a settlement, maybe you'll be able to find those
(popular) cartridges that are so hard to find. If Nintendo would send more
then six to a store at a time when stores are trying to buy them in the 100's,
(ah, but then people wouldn't have to go to 20 different stores to find a
cartridge, thus the consumer thinks, boy is this a hot item when in reality
Nintendo is making it more difficult on the consumer purchasing their product,
thus creating an artificial demand.
Then once Nintendo gets a software developer to sign an agreement for to
produce a Nintendo Cart, that developer must agree not to make the same game
for other game systems (sounds like Monopoly).
For example, everyone wants the Tengen version of Tetris, but Nintendo
filed an injuction against Tengen, and produced an inferior cartridge of the
same product, note the Nintendo version states on the package "for Sale in the
U.S. and Canada only", Doesn't sound like Nintendo is looking out for the best
interest of the consumers of the NES.
David E. Sheafer, Class of 1989
If you would like to check out facts, I would suggest you check the Wall
Street JOurnal, they have published numerous articles regarding Nintendo,
Tengen, and the lawsuits, etc.
FACT: Nintendo requires companies to sign exclusive contracts with them
stating that they can't manufacture the game for other video game systems, e.g.
if the game is being made for Ninteno, then it can't be made for the
2600,7800,Sega,Genesis,etc.
Fact: Why should Tengen (or any other company) have to get permission from
Nintendo to manufacture games for the NES, no other video game or computer
party (that I know of) requires the vendor to get permission for develop third
party software. In the U.S. its a free country, and if someone uses a
non-approved game it wil void the nintendo warranty (big deal its only 90 days
anyway)
SML...@psuvm.bitnet
Leo) says:
>
>Perhaps I have a limited notion of "monopoly," but I see nothing wrong
>with Nintendo being able to determine who makes games for their system.
>Wasn't it the case that Sega had even stricter controls for the Master
>System (perhaps not allowing anyone else to make games for it)? I don't
>know how the business practices work, but it seems routine for game
>systems that developers must get licenses to produce games for that
>system. The only reason people seem to care that Nintendo does this is
>that the system is so popular. And many people contend that one reason
>it has maintained its popularity is due to Nintendo's control of the
>software.
mean I should apply for a poetic license? I mean we wouldn't want people
to turn out low quality literature, now would we ?
As I remember, Atari first tried to block production of Activision
cartridges. Either they lost the battle, or realized that these new
independent cartridges boosted the sales of their home unit, and so
began the Atari phenomena....
Why in Buddha's name should anyone, ANYONE have to pay Nintendope
a CENT to put out peripherals for their system? Does this mean that
Seagate should have to pay ALL the major computer producers a royalty
fee for the privilege of making hard drives for them? Get a life!
The reason Ninrakedough is so popular here is that the average dweenie
never played any of the really good games of the early 1980's and
last owned an Atari 2600. This makes Joe Hydrocephally really believe
the games he plays on his Nintwobit are major technological coups. After
all, they are alot more fun than the pirated games he has for that PC
Clone he bought at K-Mart.
The other reason that Nofundo is so popular is that they advertise,
ADVERTISE A D V E R T I S E until you want to shove a Tetris where
the sun never shines.
However, Nintendo in Japan is a different story. It came out two years
before it was released here and had NO LOCKOUT system. Technologically,
it's comparable to the Atari 7800, except I think that the Atari has
better video quality.
The Lameboy is just an extension of their luddite policies extended
to the hand held. If Atari makes enough Lynxes, they might actually
get beaten although this is certainly a long shot due to Atari's major
psychological problems....
Scott le Grand aka Sml...@psuvm.psu.edu
"What a terrible thing it must be to waste a mind
or indeed not to have a mind at all." - Dan Quayle: Nintendo Player
Bob Calbridge
> In article <70...@chaph.usc.edu> jj...@sal-sun3.usc.edu (John Jung)
> > [Please see the referenced article for the specifics.]
> > And you don't call these monopolistic tactics?
>
> Perhaps I have a limited notion of "monopoly," but I see nothing wrong
> with Nintendo being able to determine who makes games for their system.
WRONG!!!! In my opinion it is MY system, not theirs. They sold it to me
through a dealer and _I_ should be able to choose what I play on MY system.
So, Nintendo designed the system. So did Atari with the 2600. So did
Coleco with the Colecovision. That didn't stop a plethera of other developers
from writing software for them. That didn't stop other developers from
developing other peripherals for them.
The same holds true for any appliance I buy. If I want to add something to
it I should have the right. If I want to modify it for purposes I have the
right. I don't have the right of making copies of it and selling it as my
own work. Software is not the system itself. It's an addition. If I want
to take the chance that any given addition to my system will cause it to
smoke itself into oblivion, I can do it.
> What I would think of as a monopoly would be Nintendo trying to drive
> other systems (Sega, NEC, Atari, etc) out of the market through the use
> of unfair business practices (rather than trying to make a better
> product). There is a clear distinction between this and the above, and
> that's one reason I'd like more information on just what Nintendo is
> being accused of.
I recently saw a program on American business in Japan. There's no justice.
One American company had a copyright on a new type of high intensity lamp.
A major Japanese corporation saw that the American company was doing well
enough with it that they took the design, made a very minor modification to
it and sold the product as their own, effectively cutting into the American
firm's market. This was sloughed off as "The way business has been in Japan
for centuries." There was no denial as to what the Japanese corporation had
done. Now a Japanese firm in the United States starts to bitch about other
companies making work-with parts for their machines. BULLSHIT. Let's treat
the Japanese corporations with the same respect, or lack of same, that we
get over there. As I understand it, the Nintendo unit in Japan doesn't
contain the lock-out chip. Was the United States viewed as an object of
prejudice even when in our own country?
Mind you, I'm not bashing the Japanese corporations as much as I'm saying
that all things should be equal on both sides of the oceans.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if the Nintendo were banned from the US (sorry,
that's how strongly I feel about the bias) and let Nintendo corporation
lose a large share of its sales. Then see if they want to play fair.
This whole thing reminds me of something I heard on the radio recently. There
is a book being circulated in Japan that has had to be smuggled out of the
country. The reason for this is that it is a popular text that views the US
as having a "better than thou" attitude. The book promotes the view that
Japanese firms should slow their provisions to the US market and consider doing
a lot more with the European markets. Fine with me. Let's give some US
industries a chance to sell some goods in our own companies.
Sorry for the diatribe. I didn't mean to go on at length but this whole subject
get's me set off.
Bob
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
= More stupid questions available on request from =
- bobc@attctc Your humble servant (real humble) -
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Chris Adamson
What I don't understand is why people keep buying a system that so
aggressively tries to stop third party software, especially since 95% of
the carts available for Nintendo are the same damned game (scroll right,
jump over things, shoot/axe/punch other things).
The last machine that had this kind of attitude problem was the
TI-99 home computer, and their own software was so BAD that the low-end
computer public just migrated over to Commodore.
Ah, if only the 10-year-olds of America would notice that the
difference between "Kung Fu Master" and "Double Dragon" is not worth spending
and additional $30 on...
--Chris (mac...@portia.stanford.edu)
John Leo
I want to thank Lyle Rains (and also Mike Albaugh, who sent me mail)
for information regarding the situation from Atari Games point of
view. It's unfortunate (well, maybe fortunate) there doesn't seem to
be anyone at Nintendo of America to tell their point of view. I'm
certainly not going to defend them, but I'm hope that people will post
more information on the outcome of the lawsuits when they occur.
As for the people saying they don't like Nintendo games, what's the
point? I have an NES and a Gameboy, and most of the best video games
I've ever played have been made by Nintendo, including the Super Mario
Brothers series, the Zelda series, Punch Out, and so forth. If you
don't like these games, fine, don't play them and get a different
system. I'm sure there are a lot of great games for the Turbografx,
Genesis, etc., and if I had tons of money I'd get those systems as
well. I think we can all agree that the TG16 and Genesis are
technically superior to the NES, and that the Lynx is technically
superior to the Gameboy. When the Super Famicom and Fujitsu's 32-bit
FM Towns come out we can talk about them too. But for now let's talk
about games! Rec.games.video is usually a pretty positive newsgroup,
and I hope more people will post about the games they like (such as
the recent posting about TG16 games). Even if I don't own the system,
I really enjoy reading about games in magazines and this group.
Kiyoshi Kurihara
> What I don't understand is why people keep buying a system that so
>aggressively tries to stop third party software, especially since 95% of
>the carts available for Nintendo are the same damned game (scroll right,
>jump over things, shoot/axe/punch other things).
It seems that Nintendo bashing is now in fashion in this group. I
have nothing to say for their unethical business practice. But, as for
NES game quality, does they really suck? The fact is that most of neat
NES games available in Japan are not yet introduced to the U.S.
market. I just planned to buy NES here, but was discouraged, because
most games sold in the U.S. are old, those which I had played enough a
few years ago. Nintendo seems to very carefully control the conversion
of the games into American version. Besides, not making
Japanese-version cart and American-cart physically incompatible makes
the gray-market of cart impossible. (yet another bad business
practice?)
Anyway, there are many of great games yet to be seen here. For
example, 'Dragon Quest III', which is a nawesome adventure game. I
believe 'Dragon Quest I' is introduced here as 'Dragon Warrior'. This
is the sequel with more complexity and fun of magnitude order. It was
a phenomenal success when first introduced. Many people were waiting
in line to bought the game for hours. I spent a whole month dedicated
on it, never losing interest. Mr. Itoi Shigesato (a famous writer;
also the author of 'Mother') said 'it is one of the most amusing
things you can get legally in Japan. :)'
I suppose many new games will be introduced here, as soon as the
sales of current generation games slow down. NES owners, hold your
breath. Have fun.
k.k
Thom Gillespie
Does anyone know of a good historical source for video/computer games --
either written on paper, or online. Thanks.
--Thom Gillespie
Scott J. Corley
system , but I dont think that this monopoly is all bad. Yes , Nintendo places
limits on the games they will allow to be released and on which companies will
be allowed to produce them , but I dont believe that they are solely motivated
by greed as many of the posts I've seen on this subject imply. I think that
another reason for their monopolizing the production of game cartridges for
their system is a desire to keep the quality of the games for the machine
at a high level. Doesnt anyone remember what happened in the last video game
boom centered around the Atari 2600? It was an open system and any company that
wanted to could make cartridges for it. And what happened? It seemed like
every company on the planet started producing 2600 game carts ,99.99 percent
of which were utter drek. The video game market became flooded with these junk
games and it was hard to tell the junk games from the good ones. I think that
this was one of the reasons for the demise of the first video game boom.
Nintendo is simply trying to prevent the same thing from happening again. They
want to make video games into a permanent part of the American entertainment
scene , not just as a periodic fad.
Scott J. Corley
companies from producing software (games) for their video game system , but
other companies have tried to prevent 3rd party companies from producing
software for their computer system. In the early 1980's , Texas Instruments
designed their TI 99/4a computer ( which had a ROM cartridge slot) so that only
cartridges which had their special GROM or GRAM chip would run on the 99/4a.
Since most of the products released on cart for the 99/4a were games , the
situation TI created was very similar to the one Nintendo has created now , yet
I dont remember hearing too many people complaining about back then.
SML...@psuvm.bitnet
says:
comes with an optional bridge! It's difficult to tell good videos from bad
videos. That's why we have critics and video review magazines. The same was
and still is available for all video games. If they only wanted to produce
the BEST possible cartridges, they would have released their more recent
Japanese games long ago. By making the two systems incompatible, they have
insured that they can make as much of a killing off their early crap as
when they finally decide that your ready to flip the channel for Super Mario
Bros. VIII: Mario gets an Enema.
I agree that there is nothing illegal about the lock-out chip. In fact, it
is a neat way to limit the competition and completely ethical. It is their
extortive practices against those who have cracked it, artificial creation
of shortages and their general big brother outlook that makes me hate
them. I loved what Sam Tramiel did to them at a COMDEX with a lynx last
Summer. It's too bad they were only able to make 200,000 of them....
Scott Le Grand aka SML...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
SML...@psuvm.bitnet
lock-out system. TI did not know the first thing about writing video games
and didn't advertise. Therefore, soon you were able to buy their wonder
machine for $99.
Scott Le Grand aka SML...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
PS, Maybe you Nintendo fans ought to create rec.games.video.nintendo if you
don't want to hear us flame your widget....
Mike Hughey
>I've been holding off from "spilling" all this, and I doubt that I will
>convince any Nintendo fans, but enough is enough.
>
>that Nintendo gets sliced and diced by the Justice department. It
>couldn't happen to a nastier bunch of guys.
>--
>/* Lyle Rains <-- Any stupid or offensive opinions above are all his.
> * Atari Games <-- We make arcade video games, not product announcements.
> * Milpitas, CA <-- OK, so maybe it's not Alviso. But it's home.
> */
Allow me to add my two-cents worth to this discussion. I'm more of an arcade
game player than a home system player, but I've been hating Nintendo for more
years than most other people have. The reason: Does anyone remember the game
in the arcades "Crazy Kong", alias "Congorilla"? This was the grey (black?)
market version of Donkey Kong, the popular Nintendo arcade game. Apparently,
Congorilla was an Americanized package of the Japanese version of the game.
This was a GREAT GAME!!!! The playability was fantastic (much better than
in Donkey Kong), and the graphics were something like FOUR TIMES the resolution
of the legal version. Nintendo apparently found out about this version, and
made their American version inferior, for some reason. I of course understand
that they were upset about someone else stealing their game for the American
market; I was just upset that when Nintendo came out with their American
version, it was so far inferior to the illegal version (the Japanese version)
of the game. I was SO ANGRY when they took out Congorilla and replaced it with
Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong, in addition to being specification-inferior to the
illegal version, also had some BUGS in the software (I'd be hard-pressed to
remember them, they weren't as obvious as something like the bugs in the
graphics for Atari's Kangaroo (see, Atari did make a few dogs - no offense to
Lyle, I doubt he had anything to do with that one)). Does anyone else out there
remember Congorilla, the world's all-time greatest illegal game?
BTW, I actually met a guy at an arcade one day who claimed to be working for
Nintendo as a detective. I was playing Donkey Kong, and he walked up and asked
me if I had ever heard of a game called Congorilla. I told him yes, and I then
proceeded to tell him that, while I knew it was the illegal version, I thought
it was MUCH better, and I thought Nintendo was doing a great disservice to
videogame players everywhere by not releasing that version. I guess he didn't
care much about that. He took my name, but I never got called to testify or
anything.
Mike Hughey g...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
or
hug...@cs.purdue.edu
John Jung
>I agree that Nintendo has a monopoly on producing game cartridges for their
>system , but I dont think that this monopoly is all bad.
monopoly to prevent a flood]
Okay, say for a second that Nintendo's control of the market isn't for
monetary reasons. The fact remains that Nintendo has (IMHO) a monopoly, and
monopolies in this country are _illegal_. To exempt Nintendo from such laws
would imply that other companies could have monopolies if the monopolies were
"right", and not for reasons of greed.
Also, shouldn't it be up to the _cosumers_ to decide what games are "good"
and which one are "bad"? Why should we let a company decide what is "good" and
"bad"? Where the hell do they get off thinking that their opinions are "right"
and our opinions are "wrong"?
Regardless of the fact that Nintendo's monopoly could be because of greed,
the simple fact of the monopoly is illegal and, IMHO unethical.
John
Allen P Jr Haughay
I think we are seeing a case of the "sour grapes" syndrome in the case of
Nintendo. The thing is a hot seller, the largest selling videogame system
in the US, and software companies want to jump on the bandwagon to produce
for the system. Nintendo's strict licensing, and lockout mechanisms prevent
this, and so the companies' are screaming "monopoly".
So far as Nintendo using the lockout and licensing in an attempt to control
the quality and flux of games in the market, I have no problem. I agree
with their analysis of the demise of the game market in the early eighties.
Do they have a monopoly on the production of games for their machines?
Unsure, probably not. It has not been proven that the company uses part
availability and cartridge supply to manipulate the sales of other companies,
as the allegations state. Is there a precedence for companies restricting the
licensing of software for their machine? It can probably be shown that
healthy competition exists amongst the licensee companies. It is also
probable that other companies wishing to produce for the thing who don't
wish to go the licensing route are not up the task of reverse engineering
the lockout mechanism, and coming up with a dev system. This lockout
also prevents gray marketing of ultra-cheap Japanese schlock games for the
thing, which isn't a bad idea given the premise that this was the killer
of the industry before.
I know that Nintendo does control the number of licensed developers for
a given time period working on games for their systems. I investigated
getting ahold of developer's information and systems, and it was very
similar to the process needed to become a licensed developer for many
computer companies, except that they were not accepting any applications
again until February. All of this is probably in an effort to control
software availability to prevent a glut and thus prolong the life of their
machine, something that benefits themselves, and their licensee companies.
This will definitely be an interesting court battle.
Tim Binder
throw my $0.02 in.
Would someone please describe to me how Nintendo has a monopoly on the
video game industry? Are people out there unable to purchase the Genesis,
the Turbo-Grafix 16, etc? It seems to me that, by analogy, the company
responsible for VHS has a monopoly on the video industry, since Beta (which
many consider technically superior) has effectively been wiped out. (I
realize this is an imperfect analogy; no need to point that out. Just trying
to get an idea across.)
Nintendo is limiting access to its own video game system; not everyone's
television. If they wish to restrict the number of games available for
their system by doing this, so be it. (Although, I'm amazed at the number
of games available for it vs. any of the other systems)
On the other hand, punishing dealers for selling non-licensed (i.e. Tengen)
game cartridges DOES smack of unfair trade practices and SHOULD be
examined.
Personally, I think think it would be real neat if Tengen or some other
company would release details of their chip, allowing others to manufacture
games for said system without licensing through Nintendo. (or they could
license their chip, so there would be greater competition. Maybe then
Nintendo would ease their terms.)
I don't think such a move would hurt Tengen that much, since I find all of
their games that I've purchased so far to be of excellent quality.
Just to re-emphasize: Nintendo DOES NOT have a MONOPOLY on the video game
industry. Their other business practices, however, are VERY questionable.
Tim
P.S. What was it that Tramiel did to Nintendo at CES with the LYNX? I
haven't heard, and am curious. (I am trying to hunt down one to examine,
but the stores around here (Phila) haven't even heard of it! Gameboys are
all over the place (when they haven't been sold out))
__ ____________
/\ \ Timothy M. Binder (bin...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) /_________ /\
/ \ \ CI$ 71106,1124 [but VERY rarely] \ ______/ / /
/ /\ \ \ SCAnet: Gwydion Rhys ap Rhianwen!Bailiwick of \ \ \ / / /
/ / /\ \ \ Ivyeinrust!Barony of Bhakail!Kingdom of the East \ \ \/ / /
/ / /__\_\ \ \ \ \/ /
/ / /________\ "[Cthulhu] makes Gozer look like little Mary \ \ /
\/___________/ Sunshine." -- 'Collect Call of Cthulhu'_TRG_ \_\/
Disclaimer: All opinions contained herein are fictional. Any resemblance to
real opinions is purely coincidental.
David Blevins
I may get a Lynx rather than fill the Big N's greedy coffers anymore. I
wonder if there's a lockout VLSI in the Gameboy carts...
dB hplabs!hpccc!blevins
Scott J. Corley
the market these days. But just because a video game gets a good review , doesnt
mean that its a good game. A lot of the video game reviews I've read sound like
they were taken directly from the game manufacturers publicity sheet. I'd sure
like to find a video game magazine that gave HONEST game reviews , but that
seems less and less likely. The video game magazines on the market these days
are becoming more and more like the system specific computer magazines who
almost never print a bad review.
Scott J. Corley
think that their games are junk and that their business practices are unfair
and monopolistic? Or are you really only angry at them because they are the
number one home video game manufacturer and Atari who you seem to so love is
in a distant (very distant) second or even third place? If Atari (Tramiel's
Atari) was the number one home video game manufacturer as they were in the
early 80's and they had designed in a lockout chip like Nintendo has , would
you be so angry at them? Judging from the continual pro-Atari messages in your
posts , I think not. What does Jack Tramiel behavior at COMDEX have to do with
the merit of Nintendo games or of Nintendo itself? The only way your gloating
over what Tramiel did to Nintendo at COMDEX makes sense is that you are
jealous of Nintendo and envious of their market position because you believe
that it rightfully belongs to Atari because they are your favorite
company , not because Nintendo games are so bad and Nintendo is such a evil
company.
Hedley Rainnie
The Nintendo chip is a lockout device. It is interesting to note though
that only when huge sums of money are involved that such an impedement is
such a hot issue. Remember the Atari 7800? It has an even more sinister
form of protection that Nobraino could have EASILY used. Public key
encryption, with the other key known only to someone over at Atari corp.
This would have shut even Tengen out (and some others), since a chip is
FAR easier to bust than a world class encryption method. Why wasn't Atari corp
sued for monopoly? I don't think people really cared and further Ataric corp
was eager to get developers and wasn't going to rape them by charging
1 Million UP FRONT like Nintendough. The rape is quite complete too with
Nintendo doing all production and charging excessively for everything, ever
wonder why most 3rd party games manuals are in black and white where Nintendos
LoZ etc are color books? Very slanted, also 70% of the WORLDS supply of
1Mbit mask roms go to Nintendo.
Summary: "It's good money if you can get it...."
Hedley
--
{decwrl!sun}!imagen!iit!hedley
hed...@imagen.com
Bob Calbridge
> Doesnt anyone remember what happened in the last video game
>boom centered around the Atari 2600? It was an open system and any company that
>wanted to could make cartridges for it. And what happened? It seemed like
>every company on the planet started producing 2600 game carts ,99.99 percent
>of which were utter drek. The video game market became flooded with these junk
>games and it was hard to tell the junk games from the good ones. I think that
>this was one of the reasons for the demise of the first video game boom.
>Nintendo is simply trying to prevent the same thing from happening again. They
>want to make video games into a permanent part of the American entertainment
>scene , not just as a periodic fad.
Sure I remember. And most of that DREK came from Atari. The VCS was designed
with a limited amount of memory for both programming and screen graphics.
Atari was glad to sit on their duffs and turn out such things as Canyon Bomber,
Atari Circus and Combat. Although fun to play in their day they showed no
inclination to innovation.
Then along comes a company like Activition. Now we get such things as Demon
Attack, Ka-Boom and Laser Attack (sorry, not sure about the name.) Another
company comes along and manages to put extra program memory and screen memory
in the cartridge and develops an innovative bank switching scheme to utilize
this concept. Another company designs a cartridge that can read games off of
a standard cassette tape.
When Atari saw the competition making the advances it finally woke them up.
We also saw the prices of the cartridges begin to moderate (of course, the
best prices came when Toys 'R' Us couldn't unload their massive stock.)
All I see from Nintendo and its licensed lackeys are the same old Chop
Socki games and ninja nitwits. That may be too strong a statement since
I know that there are some good games out there. But don't try to convince
me that good competition is going to add cause people to buy more drek.
That is totally up to the individual. Don't buy something unless you're sure
of the quality. Especially with video games. Most places won't handle
refunds, only exchanges on the same title (read: defective cartridges only.)
Bob Calbridge
Of course not. I had the good sense not to buy a TI99/4. It was supposed to
be touted as a computer. I already owned a far more capable system at home
than that. I took the opportunity to play some of the games at Sears at one
time and found them uninspiring. Coleco put their video chip to better use in
their systems.
postp...@alien.enet.dec.com
> Just what have you got against Nintendo? Are you angry because you really
> think that their games are junk and that their business practices are unfair
> and monopolistic? Or are you really only angry at them because they are the
> number one home video game manufacturer and Atari who you seem to so love is
> in a distant (very distant) second or even third place?
I don't love Atari. I really like some of the Nintendo games. I was
one of the earliest Nintendo buyers (serial number a bit above 26,000).
Here is what I have against Nintendo:
o They have apparently brought false suit against Tengen.
o They may have threatened retailers with reduced shipments if the
retailers do not suppress competitor's products.
o They may have used lies about shortages as a means of influencing the
market.
o The above have caused game prices to be two or three times what they
might be otherwise.
o The above have caused some games to be hard to find and some to be
impossible to find.
o Nintendo is attempting to make it illegal to rent video games. (Via
their action on the Software Rental Act currently in Congress.)
-- edp (Eric Postpischil)
"Always mount a scratch monkey."
David E. Sheafer, Class of 1989
Lines: 36
In article <1989Dec12.1...@athena.mit.edu>, l...@athena.mit.edu (John G Leo) writes:
> In article <70...@chaph.usc.edu> jj...@sal-sun3.usc.edu (John Jung)
>> [Please see the referenced article for the specifics.]
>> And you don't call these monopolistic tactics?
>
> Perhaps I have a limited notion of "monopoly," but I see nothing wrong
> with Nintendo being able to determine who makes games for their system.
> Wasn't it the case that Sega had even stricter controls for the Master
> System (perhaps not allowing anyone else to make games for it)? I don't
> know how the business practices work, but it seems routine for game
> systems that developers must get licenses to produce games for that
> system. The only reason people seem to care that Nintendo does this is
> that the system is so popular. And many people contend that one reason
> it has maintained its popularity is due to Nintendo's control of the
> software.
>
> What I would think of as a monopoly would be Nintendo trying to drive
> other systems (Sega, NEC, Atari, etc) out of the market through the use
> of unfair business practices (rather than trying to make a better
> product). There is a clear distinction between this and the above, and
> that's one reason I'd like more information on just what Nintendo is
> being accused of.
>
> Nintendo is trying to drive other systmes out of the market, that is
why Atari,Tengen, and Sega have all files lawsuits against Nintendo previously
to the attorney generals actions.
In addition when Atari Corp and Atari Games (Tengen) were Atari Inc,
under Warner Communications umbrella. Atari had a policy (when the 2600 was
the most popular video game on the market) not to support third party
developers (The first ones being Activision from what I remember) and what
Atari as I've heard Nintendo has done was say that using not Atari cartridges
would void the warrany and possible damage the system. However Atari decided
to deviate from this policy as by supporting 3rd party developers more
cartridges became available (and most infererior games wouldn't do well any
way)
Allen P Jr Haughay
>
>Here is what I have against Nintendo:
>
>o They have apparently brought false suit against Tengen.
>
We'll see.
>o They may have threatened retailers with reduced shipments if the
> retailers do not suppress competitor's products.
>
>o They may have used lies about shortages as a means of influencing the
> market.
>
Moderating the supplies to keep the prices up is no big deal. Supply-sided
economics, standard business tactic.
The Unknown User
In article <18...@netnews.upenn.edu> bin...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Tim Binder) writes:
>With everyone throwing around the term ''monopoly'', I just thought I'd
>throw my $0.02 in.
>
>Would someone please describe to me how Nintendo has a monopoly on the
>video game industry? Are people out there unable to purchase the Genesis,
>the Turbo-Grafix 16, etc? It seems to me that, by analogy, the company
>responsible for VHS has a monopoly on the video industry, since Beta (which
>many consider technically superior) has effectively been wiped out. (I
>realize this is an imperfect analogy; no need to point that out. Just trying
>to get an idea across.)
Just using your admittedly imperfect analogy to get a point back
at you.
The inventors of the VHS machine [I don't remember.. Sony invented
Beta] do not give out RIGHTS for people to make MOVIES for their machines.
They don't have final say as to whether some bomb of a movie is made for
their machine.. They don't even have say as to if some other company
makes a COMPETING VHS machine... Actually I think that whoever invented it
probably gets paid royalties or something, but if someone could make a
competing Nintendo-compatible system for a CHEAPER price and that still
included the royalties, that'd be better.
They just have a monopoly by saying what can be made for their
machine.
--
unk...@ucscb.ucsc.edu APPLE II FOREVER APL24VR GS tips? Mail me.
Rob Finley
all of the news on the subject....
hit F immediately.
I was incorrect in my previous posting on the lockout chip, I saw the complex
in the coin op games of the game rebooting four times per second but thought
it was the game going "and what kind of video chip are we trying to screw up
today" instead of the lockout part that IS PART OF THE DISPLAY CONTROLLER
on the coin op versions.
So, for the home games, they probably decided which sprite controller they
wanted to use, tore out the lockout section, set it to silicon, and stuck it
in the main box. If you ask Nintendo Tech Services about the flashing display,
they will tell you that the GRAPHICS chip was defective ($$$!!!).
I was misinformed and didn't believe that Nintendo would be so PIG HEADED
about it.
...Now, unsubscribe to rec.games.video, its all yours now....
Scott J. Corley
>In article <21...@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, sjc...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Scott J. Corley) writes:
>> Doesnt anyone remember what happened in the last video game
>>boom centered around the Atari 2600? It was an open system and any company that
>>wanted to could make cartridges for it. And what happened? It seemed like
>>every company on the planet started producing 2600 game carts ,99.99 percent
>>of which were utter drek. The video game market became flooded with these junk
>>games and it was hard to tell the junk games from the good ones.
>
>with a limited amount of memory for both programming and screen graphics.
>
>Attack, Ka-Boom and Laser Attack (sorry, not sure about the name.)
the 2600 deleted]
>
>When Atari saw the competition making the advances it finally woke them up.
>
>
>All I see from Nintendo and its licensed lackeys are the same old Chop
>Socki games and ninja nitwits. That may be too strong a statement since
>I know that there are some good games out there.
[ info on how its consumer's responsibility to ensure choosing good games
deleted ]
Whats wrong with martial arts games? I personally dont like them , but if other
people do I have no problem with that. The reason that there are so many martial
arts games on the Nintendo is that they sell well. If people didnt like them
there wouldnt be so many of them because people wouldnt buy them. Would you
prefer that most of the games for the Nintendo be shoot'em ups like so many
games of the early 80's were?
As for finding out how good a game is by reading a review in a magazine , as I
mentioned in a earlier message the quality of reviews in the video game
magazines that I've seen leave much to be desired. You also must remember that
most of the video games carts are bought by parents for their children , not
by the children directly. If after shelling out $35 - $45 for a cartridge they
find their kid only plays it a few times , most parents tend to be a little
upset. I know mine were in the early 80's when carts were only $20 or so. After
seeing how disappointed I was by some games they had bought for me , it became
very difficult to convince them to purchase any more. I dont doubt that a lot of
other people had the same problem with their parents , and that kids today
would run into the same problem.
Dean Reece
In article <9...@dms.UUCP> rot...@dms.UUCP (Ed Rotberg) writes:
>From article <1989Dec12.0...@bpdsun1.uucp>, by r...@bpdsun1.uucp (Rob Finley):
>> Despite a previous response that the cartridges don't contain a graphics
>> sprite controller, I still hold the opinion that it isn't a lockout chip.
>> And, unless you want all the games to look the same, I don't see
>> an easy solution to this until you can design a chip on a '386, print
>> it off on your laser printer and plug it in.
>>
>> Sorry guys...
>
>"Flame on..."
>
>I'm glad you relegated your observation to that of an opinion, as it is
>apparently just that, and not a very informed one either. The FACT is that
>the "lock-out" chip in question performs NO function in the NES other than
>security of the cartridge. It has NOTHING to do with the sprite generation,
>or with any other graphics, audio, or I/O.
No, the CIC is NOT a sprite generator. It is NOTHING but a lockout chip
A peer CIC chip on the mother board provides RESET and CLOCK signals to
the CPU and/or PPU. When no cart is plugged in, or a cart with the CIC
removed, the game resets about once a second. The first second of the
game works fine (first bar of music, some motion on the screen...).
There are only 4 connections between the NES and the CIC on the cart.
Well, ok, 6 if you count VCC and GND. One of them is a 4mhz clock signal
from the NES, the other three go to the peer CIC. They make contact with
NOTHING ELSE in the NES.
There is a solution, though a bit hard to market. That is to make an
adapter that you can plug 2 carts into, one for the CIC only, the other
for third party/Japanese carts with no CIC. I tried transplanting CIC
chips around and had no trouble using a SPY-vs-SPY CIC with the SMB/Duck
Hunt cart.
BTW - Don't flame Rob too hard, after all he did state it was his OPINION.
Right or wrong, he is entitled to it.
______________________________________________________________________
| Dean Reece Member Technical Staff |"The flames are all long gone |
| The Santa Cruz Operation 408/458-1422 | but the pain lingers on" |
|________...@sco.com_______________|___________________Pink_Floyd_|
Michael Kingdom
>example, 'Dragon Quest III', which is a nawesome adventure game. I
>believe 'Dragon Quest I' is introduced here as 'Dragon Warrior'. This
>is the sequel with more complexity and fun of magnitude order. It was
>a phenomenal success when first introduced. Many people were waiting
>in line to bought the game for hours. I spent a whole month dedicated
>on it, never losing interest. Mr. Itoi Shigesato (a famous writer;
>also the author of 'Mother') said 'it is one of the most amusing
>things you can get legally in Japan. :)'
>
> I suppose many new games will be introduced here, as soon as the
>sales of current generation games slow down. NES owners, hold your
>breath. Have fun.
>
> k.k
Thanks for the info and open-minded comments! I like to see thought out
comments like these rather than bashing or defensive attitudes.
-- Mike
SML...@psuvm.bitnet
>
>Just what have you got against Nintendo? etc etc....
Yes I have a pro-Atari slant. So what? They created the best videogame
system ever so far (the 2600). Although the NES is superior hardware
wise to it, the luddites at the NES are using it to create one after
another "chop socki shoot 'em ups". I am ultimately a video game lover.
I currently have much the same sense of nausea at the home video game
industry as many have against pop music these days. Nintendo symbolizes
this nausea far better than ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE!
Thank God decent games are still being written for home computers.
Games for the Amiga and the Atari ST are WHAT GAMES FOR THE NES SHOULD
BE! Hopefully, the makers of the Genesis and the Turbografix 16 will
realize this and license adaptations of these games, instantly giving
them a larger stock of games than the NES. I would personally LOVE
to program the Lynx. The 6502 was a blast to write games on, and an 8
Mhz version on a low res screen which is so small that that isn't
important has some serious potential, but heck, I'm not rich
.........yet:(
Overall, the Amiga and the ST offer the only modern programming
environments to write video games. The Mac II is not a home computer,
and the rest are just like programming the NES, only worse.
Scott Le Grand aka sml...@psuvm.psu.edu
Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab
Just to throw another spanner in the works: Atari has sued
Nint-end-o again, along with Pepsico, this time for false advertising.
It seems that in some ad for the Gameboy, the screenshots for the
Gameboy were colorized. As we all know, Gameboy don't do color. I have not
seen the ad in question, but if true, it's easily the dumbest thing
Nintendo's pulled so far.
I wonder what Pepsico has to do with it?
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ew...@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
\_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac
O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack")
"Because you never know who might want to sit in your lap."
Tim Binder
>In article <18...@netnews.upenn.edu>, I write:
>> ...
>>
>> Nintendo is limiting access to its own video game system; not everyone's
>> television. If they wish to restrict the number of games available for
>> their system by doing this, so be it. (Although, I'm amazed at the number
>> of games available for it vs. any of the other systems)
>>
>> On the other hand, punishing dealers for selling non-licensed (i.e. Tengen)
>> game cartridges DOES smack of unfair trade practices and SHOULD be
>> examined.
>>
>>
>> Just to re-emphasize: Nintendo DOES NOT have a MONOPOLY on the video game
>> industry. Their other business practices, however, are VER
>
> Tim, I think your missing a major issue when you say Nintendo doesn't have
>a monopoly. Since Nintendo forces companies to make games for only Nintendo,
>that means that if you have a sega, genesis, atari, etc. you will not see those
>games for your system because Nintendo wont let the company that has the
>liscence make it for any other system but their own, this will thus limit the
>selection of titles available for systems other then nintnedo, another words a
>monopoly.
The choice to write for Nintendo is one the individual game companies have
to make. The way someone described it, I believe, is that the company cannot
come out with the same game for another system for a limited amount of time.
[If I am wrong on this, someone please correct it with the proper
information.] Sounds to me that it's a lot like signing an exclusive deal
with a record company, or MTV getting to preview videos before they are
released to the broadcast industry in general.
If, on the other hand, they are permanently restricting such production, I
am under the impression that that IS illegal (as well as unfair!). And to
reiterate, their actions of sanctioning stores for carrying unlicensed
games is wrong, Wrong, WRONG (as well as all the illegal stuff, etc.)
THAT sounds a lot like what several of the major personal computer companies
were trying to do at the start of the PC industry. Such actions were ruled
illegal.
I'm all for opening up the market as much as possible. The amazing thing to
me is that Nintendo has been so successful with such restrictive marketing
tactics where other companies have failed. Could this be yet another case
of a Japanese company knowing how to do something where an American company
has failed? (TI with the 99/4A, Atari with the 7800, as people have mentioned
earlier.) Comments welcome.
Tim
Geoffrey K Kim
>Wow, it really looks like Nintendo-bashing season on rec.games.video.
I don't like to *bash* Nintendo. I prefer to jump on their head, squash
them, then kick them off the scene! 8')
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| kim @beowulf.UCSD.EDU (Home of the Garden Weasles) |
| "... ENGAGE!" -- Jean Luc Picard, STTNG |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
postp...@alien.enet.dec.com
Haughay) writes...
>>o They may have threatened retailers with reduced shipments if the
>> retailers do not suppress competitor's products.
>>
>>o They may have used lies about shortages as a means of influencing the
>> market.
>>
>
>Moderating the supplies to keep the prices up is no big deal. Supply-sided
>economics, standard business tactic.
I did not complain about moderating supplies. Moderating supplies is fine --
if you don't want to sell something, don't sell it. That's fine by me.
What I complained about was the alleged threats (illegal under anti-trust laws)
and the lies (possibly constituting fraud).
Mark F. Newton
Nothing to do with vidgames, but an answer to a post...
VHS was developed by JVC, and Super VHS was invented by JVC. As far
as I know, JVC didn't invent VHS, but they were the company to
develop it. This goes back to when Sony wanted to develop a
consumer 1/2" format, and I believe it was a split between Sony and
Matsushita over the format, that lead to VHS. But that's another
story (and newsgroup).
As JVC is the license holder and grantor of VHS, anyone who wants
to develop for the format must go through JVC. For example,
development in Europe of a T-200 tape must be approved by JVC, or
they will not grant the use of the VHS trademark.
This is not a monopoly, as it may seem on the surface. They can
market the tape, even if JVC thinks it might not work well with
older VHS decks. (They are looking at the tape) But they can not
use the VHS trademark. Generally, no one would consider buying VHS
equipment, unless it has the trademark. (Not just the letters, VHS,
but the design that are the letters VHS)
Now back to vidgames. Atari could not prevent Activision from
creating games for the VCS (as decided in court, I believe), but
Activision certainly could not use the Atari trademark in marketing
their games, without permission.
Tengen, in their advertising, says that the games are not
sponsored, designed, etc. by Nintendo, but does state that they are
for play on the Nintendo.
Nintendo, however, controls 100% of all production of Nintendo
endorsed games, by controlling vital chip sets, thus creating the
monopoly, and by forbidding software companies from porting games
to other systems. Or risk not getting the chip sets, most likely.
An analogy would be like JVC controlling a particular part of the
VHS shell that only works if a companion part in the VCR was there.
ANd if JVC did not like your movie, or you produced a LD or Beta
version, you could not get that part.
Luckily, madness like that doesn't exist, except for American video
game systems. In Japan, it is common to have the same game for
other systems, like Fantasy Zone, for the Famicom, Sega, PC Engine,
and probably a couple MSX versions, too.
One interesting tale of Nintendo bullying even my company, (I work
at an electronics retainer), we used to have Tengen games, such as
Pac-Man, and were going to get other Tengen games, but all of a
sudden, we get a message from our buyer, to pull all Pac-Man and
any other Tengen games, and send them back to our distribution
center. I tried to get something that smelled of Nintendo twisting
our buyers (and company's) arm, but was unsuccessful. I would have
loved to have official confirmation of such bullyingto present to
Atari Games attorneys... (And so would they!)
And now the Justice Department is in on this- I hope that Nintendo
loses big on this and opens game development and distribution for
more carts. I feel that Nintendo has artificially created game
shortages, and that they get theirs.
Ja ne da-cha,
Shinobu
--
Sakura-mento, CA
mmsac!sactoh0!mfolivo mfolivo@sactoh0
pacbell!sactoh0!mfolivo (they're worth a try...)
Deanna L. Nason
Has anybody seen the new movie with Fred Savage, "The Wizard"???
Do they show very much of SMB3 in it??
Does anyone have any idea when this game will hit the stores in
Columbus??
Also, has there been any rumors of another "Link/Zelda" game in the makes?
Rob Finley
>From article <1989Dec12.0...@bpdsun1.uucp>, by r...@bpdsun1.uucp (Rob Finley):
>> Despite a previous response that the cartridges don't contain a graphics
>> sprite controller, I still hold the opinion that it isn't a lockout chip.
>> And, unless you want all the games to look the same, I don't see
>> an easy solution to this until you can design a chip on a '386, print
>> it off on your laser printer and plug it in.
>>
>> Sorry guys...
>
>"Flame on..."
>
>I'm glad you relegated your observation to that of an opinion, as it is
>apparently just that, and not a very informed one either. The FACT is that
>the "lock-out" chip in question performs NO function in the NES other than
>security of the cartridge. It has NOTHING to do with the sprite generation,
>or with any other graphics, audio, or I/O.
Well, maybe I should have stayed out of this conversation. From talking
to Nintendo ("THE NINTENDO. ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES") I felt that I was
well informed. Should I call Nintendo Tech services when an ATARI game decides
to dispel smoke into the room? After all, theirs was toll-free...
I worked on Nintendo Coin Ops for a couple of years, used an Official Nintendo
schematic for repairing them. Also, I think the Nintendo Punch-Out also
used the RA02 but not the controller (AAK, lock out) chip.
IN THE COIN OP GAMES, there are two non-standard chips in there (besides
the bizarre 4K static ram from Toshiba). Both are made for or by Nintendo.
One of them is, as I said before, the RA02 processor that (thank you for
taking yours apart and dissassembling the ROM on your Apple II) works
like the 6502 but has additional hardware.
Our Goonies game came in defective and had problems where some of the
sprites were dorked up rather bad. UPON calling NINTENDO TECHNICAL SERVICES
(toll-free and quite knowledgeable too), they said that possibly the
GRAPHICS CHIP and the GRAPHICS ROMS were boogered and I was to return the
entire kit. This one also required the replacement of the RA02 with an
RA04 that allowed the software to adopt the extra 2K of ram that VS games
share for playing against each other.
Goonies was also the game where the roms were on a daughtercard for some
reason that escapes my memory...
Even when we were having problems with displays flashing and such, Nintendo
Tech Services saw no reason to reveal to me that our game was down, losing
money, as a direct result of their copy protection scheme. There wasn't
a damn thing I could do about it. So, why should they have spilled the beans?
Time to stick in VS tennis because it has a diagnostics routine. All
the hardware seemed to check out. I wasn't about to give up yet. So,
I traded the kit back but LEFT THE TENNIS VIDEO CHIP IN THERE BY ACCIDENT.
I powered the game back up. Sure, the screen flashed, the colors were wrong,
the sprites were there but they were built wrong. Alas, they didn't have
noisy pixels in it like the correct video/kitchen sink chip. From one of your
co workers, I learned that they only modify the color maps and the lockout
inside the lockout chip. The flashing I now know comes from the
lockout chip dinging the processor. But, by the schematic, the tie-in
from the lockout looks like the signal instead flows from the CPU TO the
graphics chip to reset this. I seem to remember this to be a standard
feature to the MC6845, the 8275, the 8274, the 7220, that chip from Hitachi
that has reasonable blitters, the 82786,...... But, the sprites were wrong...
The sprites were wrong... The sprites were wrong.... The sprites were wrong...
I don't know why, maybe that chip was defective also..
Therefore, since each coin-op game has its own "graphics chip", why change
things? Use the same chip dies (save gobs of money in the design process)
and stick one in the cartridges... Look mom! No problem! Only
Nintendo has the chip masks and can modify them for a different game.
If you posted the right answer, I am sorry. I missed it like a lot of
articles that float through here.
Likewise, I would have been quite happy to mail this to you instead of
posting it if you had done likewise.
The laser printer bit was to fabricate a new sprite controller. Sorry.
I cannot fault Nintendo for the lockout chip. In our store we have the
ability to run four different Nintendo game kits. We have to file additional
paper work each week for each of those in regards to how many quarters (or
tokens) went into that game. Our company would have made more money and
paid Nintendo more royalties. But, the local skating rink also has four
separate Nintendo Cabinets. One of the kits he has gets NO play watsoever.
Since the owner has no one to account for, what is to keep him from taking
a copy of Goonies or Atari Baseball from a different source and plugging it
in. A demonstration of this is our local Pizza restaurant has Goonies in it
but the colors are wrong. Something is peculiar about that isn't it...
Also on the subject of Nintendo Bashing, I would rather buy a Sega anyway.
We wanted to dupe the roms for Goonies or Super Mario or Excitebike to
alleviate the problem where people memorize it and then stand there for
hours playing the game all the way through while no one else can play it.
It kills average game revenue in a hurry. About time to transfer it to
another store....
That is were I came up with the idea of a playfield that would alter
itself after a few weeks. Since I remember that we also filed paperwork
for another kit game made by Atari -Road Blasters- it is Ironic that you
would make fun of that concept. Atari's T-Shirt contest for those who
got to screen 99 caused us a bit of grief. By the way, how do you get past
screen 98. I gave up because my feet hurt too much from the accelerator
pedal.
Again, I do apologize for not aggreeing with someone but it wasn't done
in bad faith. I also realize that ATARI has a large amount of resources
invested in being able to create kits for the Nintendo system.
But, considering the age of the NES system (or whatever it is called, I
haven't figured it out yet) I don't thing third-party software was too much
of a design consideration.
Lets take an example: say I develop a killer game with great features that
uses a standard video chip already inside the game. I design a workaround
for this handshaking protocol that doesn't change from one game to the
next but must be there otherwise the screen flashes. I can sell my game
cartridge for $5 and sell lots of them. Soon, people get sick to the
point of going blind of my game and some cracker gets bored and discovers
that he can rent ATARI's Tetris: The Sequel, from joes' Video down the corner,
run the proms from T t S through his dad's eprom burner and stick them
in my cartridge and save himself some major bucks. He is now *abusing*
my hard work (GRRRR) by stealing ATARI's hard work (GRRRR).
It now looks to me that Nintendo should have talked to Dallas Semiconductor
and gotten a padlock chip in a transistor package (TO-3) and put it in
just the cartridges. The lock setup should be configured so that all of the
Tetris cartridges are the same. This enables me to replace one of the
Proms with a duplicate if it fails. Our VS Excitebike had one fail and
the entire kit had to be replaced. (our area manager was quite upset as
it was his opinion that we zapped it while chasing dust bunnies out of
the innards. But then, he also replaces ALL parts that give off heat..)
I agree with your situation and hope that it is resolved. Especially
so that we can get back to the real subject. I think that Nintendo's present
stance now is a result of a real-early design flaw that they didn't take
in consideration on the subject of third-parties. I am not even going to
think about the other issues concerning Japanese cartridges that they won't
port to the US machines, etc. The sofware available from Nintendo now does
look (for the most part, there are a couple of jewels) rather bleak.
No sig. I hope not to receive more flaming from this. You just might be
the person I can thank for the seven square feet of TTL that I had to wade
through to replace a dead chip on All Points Bulletin - an otherwise neat
implementation of smart sprites. Or, my favorite was the 20 amps of DC
through the solderless connector in Pole Position that catches on fire
when the contact surfaces get dirty....
Note bpdsun1! I don't work for Sun Microsystems, the bpd stands for
Broadcast Products Division of Harris Inc. We also have bpdsun2, 3, and
soon 4 and 5...
Thank you, SCO, for the comments. Level thinking is probably why
you have the best UNIX for the intel processors...
I hope you have a better day than the one where you wrote that flame...
Ed Rotberg
>
> I worked on Nintendo Coin Ops for a couple of years, used an Official Nintendo
> schematic for repairing them. Also, I think the Nintendo Punch-Out also
> used the RA02 but not the controller (AAK, lock out) chip.
>
LINES DELETED
> I hope you have a better day than the one where you wrote that flame...
What in heck's name are you babbling about. You seem to switch from the coin-
op systems back to the NES home system and I for one can't follow what you
are talking about -- OR WHY!!!!! (This is especially sad because I work in
the video game business). This entire thread is about the House investigation
into Nintendo's HOME ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM marketing, sales, & licensing
practices. If you want to talk about Nintedo VS coin-op systems, please
start another thread. It has NOTHING TO DO with what this thread is about!!!
Besides, Nintendo no longer makes software for the coin-op VS system.
Your comment about Nintendo's present stance resulting from a real-early
design flaw is truly bizzare. If you mean the coin-op Nintendo stance, then
as I said above, they don't do coin-op software no more (at least not for the
VS). If you are refering to the NES system, then you haven't been reading the
thread, and are once again driveling about things that you know NOTHING about.
The NES system is based entirely upon the FAMICOM system that is sold Japan.
This system HAS NO LOCK OUT DEVICES OF ANY KIND as has been stated NUMEROUS
TIMES in this thread, and came BEFORE, not after the U.S. NES system. There
is no early design flaw that would cause them to take their present "stance"
in the U.S. market. It is purely and simply a marketing decision. I find it
hard to believe that one could beso naive as to think that NINTENDO didn't
take into account third-party software developers. But then looking at
the previous comments, maybe it's not so hard to believe.
As for APB, I had nothing to do with that product, but I'll be happy to pass
along your concerns to the parties involved. Pole Position was designed by
NAMCO in Japan, and just sold in the U.S. by Atari Games.
Jeez, and it started out as a good day... look what happened!!!
Ed Rotberg
Atari Games
Bryan Wu
>Nint-end-o again, along with Pepsico, this time for false advertising.
My friend saw something about this on some business newscast - I don't
think that Atari is doing the suing(?).
Anyway, I didn't think the commercial implied that the Gameboy was color..
Pepsi: The ad is one of those "buy lots of Pepsi, win a free cartridge
or Gameboy" deals.
John Jung
>> Just to throw another spanner in the works: Atari has sued
>>Nint-end-o again, along with Pepsico, this time for false advertising.
>My friend saw something about this on some business newscast - I don't
>think that Atari is doing the suing(?).
Okay, here's the poop : (Since this looks like it has a lot of potential for
misinformation.)
Atari Corp. (maker of the Atari ST computer and the Lynx) has no relation (as
far as I know) to Atari Games who are suing Nintendo over the Anti-Trust thing.
Atari Corp. wanted to sue Pepsi and Nintendo for false advertising, but the
suit has been taken care of _partially_ out of court. Apparently, Pepsi had
some ads in People which said that the Gameboy had color. Obviously, this is
wrong. So, Pepsi agreed to pay for some (unspecified) damages and promise never
to run those ads again.
However, the damage has already been done. Since the (two) ads ran, it gave
people the false idea that the Gameboy had color and could hurt Lynx's sales.
This out of court settlement, in NO WAY, settles the Nintedo Anti-Trust
investigation. The settlement also does not affect the Tengen vs. Nintendo suit
regarding Tetris. (Tengen is a subsidiary of Atari Games, not Atari Corp.)
(If you're confused with which Atari is suing who for what, drop me a line,
and I'll try and draw a little chart for you :-)
John
Kit Kimes
>
> Ah, if only the 10-year-olds of America would notice that the
> difference between "Kung Fu Master" and "Double Dragon" is not worth spending
> and additional $30 on...
Unfortunately, it usually isn't their own money that they are spending and
their parents are not knowledgable enough (or don't have the heart) to
say no. I do have to make a partial exception to the above statement,
though. I think that there is some real variety in the choice of Nintendo
games. Not enough, but some.
Kit Kimes
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
...!att!ihlpe!kimes
David E. Sheafer, Class of 1989
antitrus violation.
Gregory K Johnson
>
> Just using your admittedly imperfect analogy to get a point back
>at you.
>
> The inventors of the VHS machine [I don't remember.. Sony invented
>Beta] do not give out RIGHTS for people to make MOVIES for their machines.
>They don't have final say as to whether some bomb of a movie is made for
>their machine.. They don't even have say as to if some other company
>makes a COMPETING VHS machine... Actually I think that whoever invented it
>probably gets paid royalties or something, but if someone could make a
>competing Nintendo-compatible system for a CHEAPER price and that still
>included the royalties, that'd be better.
This is an interesting point because it illustrates the fallacy of
Nintendo's restrictive strategy.
(Ironically, Sony invented BOTH formats but chose Beta because it was
technically superior...)
VHS emerged victorious because it allowed many other manufacturers
to make VHS format VCR's. This, coupled with aggressive marketing
tactics, eventually forced Sony to surrender the consumer VCR market.
(Sony now makes primarily high-end machines in both VHS and Beta formats).
Nintendo would do well to do the same--allow everyone to make cartridges
in unlimited quantity. If they charged a small fee for the use of
their lockout technology, so be it--but their tactics of limiting
supplies of cartridges and "punishing" dealers who carry competing
products are abominable.
--Greg
Owen Rubin
>VHS emerged victorious because it allowed many other manufacturers
>to make VHS format VCR's. This, coupled with aggressive marketing
>tactics, eventually forced Sony to surrender the consumer VCR market.
>(Sony now makes primarily high-end machines in both VHS and Beta formats).
FYI: VHS emerged as the winner because they were constantly "1 hour" ahead of
Beta. When Beta came out, it was 1 hour only and very expensive. By the time
the price dropped to a place where the average person would consider a video
deck, there was VHS with 2 hour mode. When Beta countered with 2 hour finally
(and a bit late), VHS had 3 hours. Beta went 3, VHS went 4. Seems this extra
amount of recording time was very persuasive. Especially considering that an
original L-60 tape from Sony was $18, or $18/hour compared to the $14 for a
VHS tape, or $7/hour. Sony had licensed their Beta technology out and Zenith,
Sanyo, and others were making Beta decks as well. By the time Sony caught up
to VHS, it was too late. Also, the extra quality was all but lost on the TV's
of the late 70's and early 80's. The formats "looked" much the same to the average
consumer. If today's higher resolution screens had been around, things might have
been much different.
>
>Nintendo would do well to do the same--allow everyone to make cartridges
>in unlimited quantity. If they charged a small fee for the use of
>their lockout technology, so be it--but their tactics of limiting
>supplies of cartridges and "punishing" dealers who carry competing
>products are abominable.
The major death of the video game market in the early 80's was brought about for,
among other reasons, people being tired of being ripped off by poor quality
carts for the Atari 2600. (I worked at Atari from 1976 to 1984). Everybody
and their brothers were making carts selling for approx. $30. Most were absoulte
junk. People stopped buying because they felt ripped off. Nintendo seemed to think
that by controlling what was produced (you should see their license agreement!!!)
they could prevent this from happening. The only problem is that they were not
ready for the demand for thier product. Had Nintendo been able to produce all the
carts that were required by their competitors I suspect that these suits would
not now be happening. But I agree, thier current tacticts stink!
--
-Owen-
ru...@apple.com or RUB...@AppleLink.apple.com
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The above are my ideas, my feelings, & my writings (unless noted) and this
* is my disclaimer. Also, spelling errors don't count in vi. right? :-)
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Ashdown
>In article <474f9d7...@aspen.engin.umich.edu> e...@aspen.engin.umich.edu.UUC
> And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo makes _all_ the cartridges and
> And how can you simply ignore that Nintendo has (from other people on the
>Net, as I reall) made threats to retailers that if they sold games without the
>official Nintendo seal (read : if they sell Tengen games), that the retailler
>might not get as many cartridges as everybody else does? (Tengen is the only
>company that has created a simulated lock-out chip.)
Tengen is not the only company who has bypassed the lock-out chip. Another
company in LA did the same trick. They also managed to get more colors on
the screen as well. They were offering free development kits to programmers
with good ideas for games last March. Myself and a friend submitted TWO
very good ideas and we we're turned down by a person with a very thick
Japanese accent. He stated to us that our games did not have enough
"jumping" and that we should take a good look at 'Adventures of Link.' That
was when we tossed the idea of working for those bozos at all. I have no
idea if they have managed to actually get a product to market yet or not. I
have also forgotten the company name.
Steven Elliott Barnes
Guys- some of us actually have to pay for usenet! How about
*editing* when you include someone else's message?
Tim Henrion@Eng@Banyan
> (you should see their license agreement!!!) they could prevent
> this from happening.
>
Nintendo's outrageous licensing agreement!" variety
in this newsgroup. Could someone who actually has access
to a copy of this agreement grab it, type it in, and post
it to the net? I would love to see it. Or is that prohibited,
too?
Tim Henrion
t...@banyan.com --or-- ...!bu.edu!banyan!tim
Kit Kimes
>
> This out of court settlement, in NO WAY, settles the Nintedo Anti-Trust
> investigation. The settlement also does not affect the Tengen vs. Nintendo suit
> regarding Tetris. (Tengen is a subsidiary of Atari Games, not Atari Corp.)
I'm sure that Atari Corp is also suing Nintendo over the Monoply issue,
although their suit is totally independant from the Atari Games suit.
Mark F. Newton
Since this has nothing to do with games, but since I work with
video products, here's another side of the Beta/VHS story.
The primary reason that Beta lost the consumer market (they have
the professional market, though) is due to the fact that;
The original Beta machines only recorded one hour. The original VHS
machine recorded two hours. Morita of Sony did not want the
cassette to be any larger to hold two hours of tape. As a result of
that, it is stated (my memory has dropped a few bits since I read
the book) in Morita's book about Sony, that Matsushita decided to
develop a competing format to record two hours.
And the marketing decision to allow RCA to market VHS machines.
Since RCA was *the* consumer television company at the time, Sony
didn't have much of a chance.
Sony had another chance, when they released the Betamovie, the
first camcorder. But Sony blew it again, giving it record only
features, and an optical finder. (Why put playback in them? They
have home decks for that.)
So by about 1984-5, even with SuperBeta, Beta HiFi, and even
Hi-Band Beta, and Beta Is, a better picture and sound didn't mean a
thing to people who wanted to record eight hours on one tape. (Who
in the world would want to wade through eight hours of tape?)
Oh well, Sony thinks, we gotta do something... Let's make a "mini
Beta". Yeah, that's it. Hey, Kodak has an interesting format...
Using an 8mm tape, instead of 12.65mm (1/2") tape. Use the U-load,
and license other manufacturers.
And now, 8mm is doing extremely well in the camcorder market- at
THe Good Guys! electronics store, one 8mm model outsells all other
camcorders (VHS, VHS-C, and other 8mm) combined.
This has nothing to do with games, but I thought that some of you
might find this interesting, since we digressed off of games for a
moment.
Ja ne,
Dru Nelson
Talking about companies that have bypassed the lock-out chip. I have
heard that Epyx did it.
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Internet: dne...@mthvax.cs.miami.edu %%
% Dru Nelson %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Miami, FL % $3,000,000,000,000 DEFICIT???!?!?! and.... %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%% frying my mind & spirit? on certain questions about life!%%
Mark F. Newton
>
> Guys- some of us actually have to pay for usenet! How about
> *editing* when you include someone else's message?
Pay? How is Usenet "metered" where you are at? By the word? By
time?
Anyway, point is well taken- if you can't use your editors to
edit messages to leave out .sigs, and other fluff, just post a new
message.
Ittekimasu,
Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab
> I have seen several comments of the "You should see
> Nintendo's outrageous licensing agreement!" variety
> in this newsgroup. Could someone who actually has access
> to a copy of this agreement grab it, type it in, and post
Not possible. The first clause forbids you from reading any other
clause.
(-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Jim Logan
# In article <25...@cup.portal.com>, Tobi...@cup.portal.com (Steven Elliott Barnes) writes:
# >
# > Guys- some of us actually have to pay for usenet! How about
# > *editing* when you include someone else's message?
#
# Pay? How is Usenet "metered" where you are at? By the word? By
# time?
We here at Data General get most of our news from UUNET. They
charge us monthly based on how long we are connected to their
system as UUCP is downloading each batch of messages. The longer
the message, the more it costs us to download it.
-Jim
--
James Logan UUCP: uunet!inpnms!logan
Data General Telecommunications Inet: logan%inp...@uunet.uu.net
(301) 590-3069
Chuck McManis
>time?
If you own a system that is running the news software (it's available for
most PC's, but I'm only familiar with the Amiga version) and you are
getting your feed from a host who is a long distance call then you can
quite accurately measure the cost of extraneous text. Also on 'pay per view'
systems like the Well or Portal you may pay them a flat monthly fee but
again if you are long distance you end up scrolling through a bunch of
stuff at 300 - 2400 baud and it adds up. Plus if you get your feed from
uunet then you will be able to judge that cost accurately as well. Usenet
cost a lot of money, fortunately most people have their company foot the
bill. (or school.)
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcm...@Eng.Sun.COM
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"If it didn't have bones in it, it wouldn't be crunchy now would it?!"