Why is Nintendo so bad?
Dave Taylor
Nintendo GameBoy, to which Craig Stodolenak of Lakesys responds:
> Because then they can't bilk you for who-knows-how-much for their
> custom power accessories?
I almost hate to bring this up, especially in this particular forum,
but what is it about Nintendo that people get so hostile about? I mean,
here's a company that has single-handedly turned around the home
entertainment industry with the NES, has pulled in over $5 billion in
revenue in the United States (an impressive achievement), and has
consistently the best quality games available. Pretty damn good in
my book, frankly.
So what's the problem? Is the fundamental issue here that they're a
Japanese firm? If so, okay, so let's just admit to a bit of xenophobia
and get on with things, shall we? If not, then what?
I am quite aware of the way that Nintendo Corporation does business
too; I've had a number of discussions with Nintendo America about the
possibility of creating some GameBoy games, and have found them a firm
that is exceptionally concerned with consistent quality in their games,
hence their strong "protectionist" attitude about cartridges not approved
by them (though it's not really protectionist, if you study modern
economic theories).
By comparison, McDonald's franchises are only allowed to buy supplies
from the corporate sanctioned distributors, even down to the printing
of the fliers they put on the trays. To become a McD franchise, in
fact, you have to not only pay an incredible amount up front, but you
then have to absorb the cost of building, zoning, developing,
advertising, and so on. I'll bet you have to pay for Ronald McDonald
to visit too. Nice deal for the corporate office, eh? They sit back
and get all the money without any of the risk.
You know WHY they've set it up this way? Because the cornerstone of
McDonald's success has been consistency, and the best way to ensure
that something is consistent is to have control over all elements of
the product. EXACTLY the same approach that Nintendo has taken to
the previously mottled video game market.
So I ask again, what's so bad about Nintendo?
-- Dave Taylor
Intuitive Systems
Mountain View, California
tay...@limbo.intuitive.com or {uunet!}{decwrl,apple}!limbo!taylor
Craig L. Stodolenak
>Joel Anderson of NCR asked recently about power requirements for the
>Nintendo GameBoy, to which Craig Stodolenak of Lakesys responds:
>
>> Because then they can't bilk you for who-knows-how-much for their
>> custom power accessories?
>
>I almost hate to bring this up, especially in this particular forum,
>but what is it about Nintendo that people get so hostile about? I mean,
>here's a company that has single-handedly turned around the home
>entertainment industry with the NES, has pulled in over $5 billion in
>revenue in the United States (an impressive achievement), and has
>consistently the best quality games available. Pretty damn good in
>my book, frankly.
I didn't want to turn this back into a Nintendo-bash, but I personally don't
like Nintendo. I'm not asking anyone else to share my opinion, but I have the
right to express that view.
They use low-end technology with high end marketing to achive success; fine.
But a techno-weenie like myself would like to see technology being pushed to
its limit and have the best unit win, not the best marketing department.
Forcing competitors out of the marketplace with "questionable" marketing
tactics may be fair or it may not be... it's just not something that I like to
see in an area of consumer electronics that I enjoy.
--
Craig L. Stodolenak "This city is dying of rabies. Is the best I
uunet!marque!lakesys!craig can do to wipe random flecks of foam from its
cr...@lakesys.lakesys.com lips?" -- Rorschach, "Watchmen"
Mikel Stromberg
be rented from local video-tape outlets. With the purchase of a deck for
around $100, a family could provide entertainment at home, for the kids,
for two to three dollars an evening. College students could max out those
games in a day anyway, but because they could rent, not be forced to pop
$40 for 'em, they bought the decks, and rented.
I've probably spent $80 to $100 on game cart rentals since I got my deck
last year. I'm 21, and I had it in the dorm at college. Guys from all over
the building would stop by to play the thing, and we had a constant parade
of new carts in the deck almost every weekend.
Atari, Coleco, and Intellivision never had that type of broad based market.
Sega doesen't have it now. I don't think they ever will, since the
ratio of Nintendo to Sega games is about 3 to 1. (Or even higher...)
Even the Sega system is low tech. If you want a high tech game system,
you're not ever going to find one. The equipment you could chock into a
game system would rival the best workstations you can get for home or small
business use, and wouldn't really be that much more fun to play. Some of the
best games for Nintendo are the low-res, simple arcade games like Baseball and
Hockey, because the elements that make them entertaining (frenzied on-screen
action, combined with a delicate balance between hand-eye coordination and
tactical planning) don't change if the equipment is upgraded. Sure, there are
beautiful games out there, with mind-numbing complexities, which require days
of committed playing to even begin to unravel, much less understand. But the
average 10-15 year old will beat that cart in a week, won't really understand
the work or effort that went into the graphics, and will be back playing in the
local Nintendo baseball league by the time the Christmas tree is ready for the
landfill. The carts just can't make money with that type of production value
and emphasis.
Ryan, The Tall Guy
Bob Calbridge
> You know WHY they've set it up this way? Because the cornerstone of
> McDonald's success has been consistency, and the best way to ensure
> that something is consistent is to have control over all elements of
> the product. EXACTLY the same approach that Nintendo has taken to
> the previously mottled video game market.
> So I ask again, what's so bad about Nintendo?
Because I'd like to see certain games on the Nintendo for one. Wouldn't
it be to their advantage to allow certain games to be written for their
system. I would probably have bought R-Type for Nintendo if it had come out.
Instead I had to buy a Sega in order to play it. No bashing of Sega intended
here but every time a new system comes out it seems that the best games on that
system end up somehow restricted to that system.
On general principle it should be up to the software developer to live or die
on his own product. No one would blame Nintendo for someone else's product,
unless, of course, Nintendo had given it it's seal of approval and it turned
out to be a dud. Somehow your comparison to McDonalds seems inappropriate.
But then, all McD's food tastes bland to me, as do most of the Nintendo
cartridges......consistently.
--
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= More stupid questions available on request from =
- bobc@attctc Your humble servant (real humble) -
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Victor M. Ricker
There are quite a few shitty games that HAVE the Nintendo seal of approval.
Who judges these things anyway? Most of the newer Nintendo games that I have
seen have bland, graphics that flicker horribly.. My 13 year old brother can
finish most of these games in 1 night. A very big disappointment....
Vic Ricker
Michael Portuesi
tim> I'm starting to agree with the guy who said that the Atari 2600
tim> is the best game system ever because of all the original stuff
tim> that came out for it because the hardware is soooooo crude.
tim> Same thing with computer games played on dumb ascii terminals.
tim> Display possibilities are so limited that people had to come up
tim> with some real original ideas to make for good games.
I just adopted my little nephew's Atari 2600 this Christmas. He
doesn't play it anymore because he has a Nintendo. I felt sorry for
the 2600 and decided to give it a home. I went out to the shopping
mall toy stores over the holiday break and bought up a batch of old
2600 games at prices between $3 and $10 apiece.
I think it is true that many of the 2600 games are better than
Nintendo because the designers had to really work to wring good
playable games out of the hardware. Activision really made the best
games for the 2600. They always did original titles, even if some of
their concepts were based on popular arcade games ("Chopper Command"
was a knockoff of "Defender", for example). The reason why all of
their titles were original was that they needed the freedom to design
the visual displays and game play to work well with the limited
hardware resources of the 2600. Some of the worst 2600 games are
attempts at arcade ports that the 2600 hardware just could cope with.
Anyway, I still like many of the old 2600 games, and I think they're
more playable than the bevy of "run around on a scrolling map, gather
things, and shoot bad guys" games on the Nintendo.
I am also amazed at the complexity of some of the games that were
created for the 2600. I mean, at one point Activision released a
space shuttle simulation! And this was on a 6502 (actually it was a
6507) with a 4K ROM address space and 128 *bytes* of memory! They
really pushed the machine to its max and then some.
--M
--
__
\/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc.
port...@SGI.COM Entry Systems Division -- Engineering
Tim Henrion@Eng@Banyan
I heard someone say it, symdrome. All of the games are the same
crap hashed over and over and over again. Bubble Bobble is the
only original game I've seen in quite some time now.
Don't believe me? Try renting Commando and Strider, both by
Capcom. They're almost identical! Still don't believe me?
Try renting Blaster Master and Fester's Quest, both by Sunsoft.
They're almost identical, too! Different game, same play-action.
I'm starting to agree with the guy who said that the Atari 2600
is the best game system ever because of all the original stuff
that came out for it because the hardware is soooooo crude.
Same thing with computer games played on dumb ascii terminals.
Display possibilities are so limited that people had to come up
with some real original ideas to make for good games.
Makes you stop and think....
Great game concepts, not necessarily great sound and graphics,
makes for really great games.
I'm just glad that you can rent Nintendo games so I don't have
to blow all of my money on crap games like I did for my
Colecovision.
Tim Henrion
t...@banyan.com --or-- ...!bu.edu!banyan!tim
Pete Ashdown
system ever, in respect to game play. I think the Apple II had some really
fun games for it, even though it lacked highly in the graphics and sound
areas. For example:
Short Circuit & Dino Eggs (what happened to David Shroeder anyway??)
Bilestoad (my personal favorite game of all time in the whole universe)
Lode Runner
Star Blazer
Airhearts
Castle Wolfenstein & Beyond Castle Wolfenstein (Silas Warner lives though,
he did the Amiga version of Gunship)
I sold my Apple II when the Amiga came out though. It seems that there
isn't a whole lot of innovation going around on the Amiga right now. With
the possible exception of Populous and Speedball, all I am seeing are
arcade-ports (poor ones at that) and beat-em-ups and shoot-em-ups. I bought
a Genesis to get decent arcade-ports, but it still stands that there isn't a
lot of unusual, different, fun-to-play games coming out for any system right
now. I'd like to redo and spruce up the previously listed games for the
Amiga, but I wonder if the original authors/companies would even be
interested in marketing them or giving away the rights?
Allen P Jr Haughay
> The thing that irks me the most is the "chop-sakki", as I think
> I heard someone say it, symdrome. All of the games are the same
> crap hashed over and over and over again. Bubble Bobble is the
> only original game I've seen in quite some time now.
>
> Don't believe me? Try renting Commando and Strider, both by
> Capcom. They're almost identical! Still don't believe me?
> Try renting Blaster Master and Fester's Quest, both by Sunsoft.
> They're almost identical, too! Different game, same play-action.
>
Heheheheh. Unfortunately this trend in video games being derivative of
one another is not solely confined to Nintendo and their popular home
system. Just go down to your local arcade. There are perhaps three
or four unique game types/concepts by which the myriad of games are
based. The entire market needs an infusion of new ideas, not just
Nintendo.
Skip Haughay
ACIT-University of Delaware
Allen P Jr Haughay
>
>They use low-end technology with high end marketing to achive success; fine.
>But a techno-weenie like myself would like to see technology being pushed to
>its limit and have the best unit win, not the best marketing department.
>Forcing competitors out of the marketplace with "questionable" marketing
>tactics may be fair or it may not be... it's just not something that I like to
>see in an area of consumer electronics that I enjoy.
>
Welcome to the real world. At the time the NES was developed, it was
pretty much the state-of the art so far as home video machines were
concerned. It provided a good time to the consumers, at a reasonable
price, with a processor platform that could be cost-effectively
manufactured. They hit it big. Really big. Now, just because better
technology comes along, should they just throw away their cash cow and
come out with another machine because the technology is better? No
way. Economics doesn't work that way. As long as someone will buy a
product, and in the kinds of numbers that the NES has been moving, there
is no reason to discontinue the product in favor of another one. The
average life of a hit toy is usually around three years. The NES is
a bit older than that. Nintendo is rising to the occasion by producing
their state of the art successor to their popular machine, with numbers
that rival and surpass anything on the market today. And they probably
will continue to dominate the home market BECAUSE their marketing is
so good, and also the loyalty of their established market base.
As far as questionable marketing tactics...well, that's big business. Any
company will do whatever it can within the law to gain an edge, because
the whole game deals with the bottom line and making money. This kind of
in-fighting goes on in other aspects of the consumer electrontic market.
Every other day I read about look and feel copyright infringements, interface
wars and such in the personal computer industry. This kind of nonsense
is the norm, not the exception.
Elias Israel
>I am also amazed at the complexity of some of the games that were
>created for the 2600. I mean, at one point Activision released a
>space shuttle simulation! And this was on a 6502 (actually it was a
>6507) with a 4K ROM address space and 128 *bytes* of memory! They
>really pushed the machine to its max and then some.
And it gets better. I remember reading (although I forget where) that
someone tried to deorbit with the OMS thrusters and the game claimed
that it worked. Thinking it a bug, they reported it to Activision.
Activision couldn't find the error and asked NASA about it. NASA tried
it out on their simulators *and got the same answer*! Turn out that you
*can* deorbit the shuttle without using the main thrusters.
Elias Israel | "Justice, n. A commodity which in more or
Interactive Systems Corp. | less adulterated condition the State sells
Boston, MA | to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance,
..!ima!haddock!eli | taxes, and personal service."
| -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
Ken Badertscher
I probably shouldn't bother, but I felt compelled to comment on some
of the things said recently regarding Nintendo. Please understand
that anything I say in this message is my personal opinion and is
in no way representative of the views of Atari Corp.
tay...@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) writes:
>I almost hate to bring this up, especially in this particular forum,
>but what is it about Nintendo that people get so hostile about? I mean,
>here's a company that has single-handedly turned around the home
>entertainment industry with the NES [...]
The key phrase here are "SINGLE-HANDEDLY." Nintendo did an incredibly
good job of marketing a product with an outstanding price/performance
ratio. I applaud the vision and marketing expertise that accomplished
that feat. BUT once the NES was on the market, and possibly even
before it was racking up the big bucks for Nintendo, the company
allegedly used illegal tactics to keep their strangle hold on the
market: violating anti-trust and monopoly laws which are fundamental to
American business. In my opinion, what we have seen is a high-tech
version of the monopolistic practices used and abused by the giants of
the early industrial age.
dan...@milton.acs.washington.edu (Mikel Stromberg) writes:
>Nintendo 'won' the video wars of the late '80s because their games could
>be rented from local video-tape outlets.
True, but the proliferation of these games was entirely, and, it has
been alleged, illegally controlled by Nintendo for their own profit.
The users of the NES and video game afficionados have certainly
benefited in the short term from the wide availability of games for
their machines. But the long term effects on the industry are
likely to be deleterious.
>Atari, Coleco, and Intellivision never had that type of broad based market.
>Sega doesen't (sic) have it now. I don't think they ever will, since the
>ratio of Nintendo to Sega games is about 3 to 1. (Or even higher...)
And if Nintendo is allowed to continue bullying other video game
companies, none of those companies ever will.
v...@psuhcx.psu.edu (Victor M. Ricker) writes:
>There are quite a few shitty games that HAVE the Nintendo seal of approval.
>Who judges these things anyway? Most of the newer Nintendo games that I have
>seen have bland, graphics that flicker horribly.. My 13 year old brother can
>finish most of these games in 1 night. A very big disappointment....
The Nintendo Seal of Approval is bestowed upon games from companies
which agree to abide by Nintendo's restrictive production and
distribution policies and practices. Although Nintendo touts it as
a means of quality control, the disappointment you and others have
with some of the games puts the policy in perspective. The games
that get the Nintendo seal come from companies which effectively
"belong" to Nintendo. It's a very effective marketing ploy -- and
a deceptive one.
sk...@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Allen P Jr Haughay) writes:
> As far as questionable marketing tactics...well, that's big business. Any
>company will do whatever it can within the law to gain an edge, because
>the whole game deals with the bottom line and making money. This kind of
>in-fighting goes on in other aspects of the consumer electrontic (sic) market.
>Every other day I read about look and feel copyright infringements, interface
>wars and such in the personal computer industry. This kind of nonsense
>is the norm, not the exception.
In the real world, big businesses must abide by the laws in the
countries where they do business, or they don't stay big, and Allen
pays lip service to that concept in his missive. Look and feel
copyright infringements and interface wars are issues that challenge
the frontiers of the high tech legal battlefields. Anti-trust and
monopoly legislation is another matter entirely. That legislation has
been around a long time and is well understood. The fact is, Nintendo
was under investigation for anti-trust violations by the U.S. Congress,
and that committee has turned over its findings to the U.S. Justice
Department for dispensation.
In my mind, the question is not "Why is Nintendo so bad?" but rather,
"How bad has Nintendo been?"
--
||| Ken Badertscher (ames!atari!kbad)
||| Atari R&D System Software Engine
/ | \ #include <disclaimer>