To cheese or not to cheese.
road...@delphi.com
playing MK][. I was among the top 5 in my whole city and surrounding area.
There were only a few guys that could beat me, and then not consistantly. Then
there came the cheese we all know and love. The "Let's walk back and forth, and
roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
could've stooped to that level, and probably still been in the top five. But,
I refuse to do one set of idiotic, repetitive moves just to get a win. IMHO
this is not good playing. You do not have to be even a *decent* player to use
most of these strategies. That's the beef I have with them; the fact that any
moron that doesn't know the first thing about the game, and how it works, can
beat me unless I do their moron stuff better. These little lab-rat strategies
are not good playing. They are a set of stimulis-response muscle memories,
that's all. Now, most video games do have reflexes as the main focus, but
fighting games have strategy and psychology as well. That all disappears the
second you use a cheesy strategy. There is no such thing as a cheesy move :
there are only cheesy strategies. The guys that do these are obviously all-
american. They have that typical attitude that all's fair in love and video
games, and that you should win anyway you can. And then these guys have the
nerve to lecture me that video games aren't that damn important. Whenever I
mention the fact that they only know one strategy, they say, "Hey, anything
that gets you the win. Winning is everything. Lighten up man, it's just a
game" . I mean, first they say that they'll do anything and everything to win,
then they say it's not that important. Well, I just got tired of it. Every
time a Jacky guy uses the same crusty old Jacky cheese strategy, I just tell
him he's boring and walk away. I see very little point in playing a guy that
I either will lose miserably too, or have to out-cheese. Where's the fun in
being some mindless zombie, waiting for the other guy to make a mistake, and
letting the time limit expire? I have seen many good Jacky guys play each
other, and maybe 1 time out of 100 do I see a KO. Where's the fun in crouching
down, and waiting for the guy to walk in so you can knee-kick him? This is
fun? Not to me. Does anyone share this attitude? Is it just me being bothered
by the way things are?
Dyslexic Frums
I for one completely agree. The stand back and roundhouse strategy
-- and its counterpart, the throw just when you thought you could have a
real fight strategy --requires slightly less talent than walking and chewing
gum at the same time. I have played against countless numbers of the
hypocritical lab monkeys to whom you refer. Now here is the real fun: let's
see how many of these losers start to pout defensively in response to these
posts. If you're ever in my area, come by for a real fight and we can
thwart these pansies together.
--
****************************************************************************
Brad Allen ba0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu "He who hesitates
University of Rochester is late"
****************************************************************************
that stupid club
several revisions to "de-cheese" it. Unfortunately, it did not salvage
game play.
Ultimately, the game should not devolve into simplistic and robotic
strategies. If it does, there should be a strategy to avoid or remove
yourself from that situation.
In MK2 and VF, those situations occur very easily. In SF2, the players
jockey for position to place the opponent into a disadvantageous
situation.
A fighting game should be fun when you play to win. It shouldn't have
to be made fun by 'de-cheesing rules' self-imposed by the players. If
that's the case, it's simply a lack of play-testing by the game designers,
IMO.
I found cheesiness in SF2 fun because it was avoidable. If you got
trapped, it was because you let yourself get into that situation. I
don't like it when it's unavoidable (early freeze/uppercut Sub Zero
patterns in early MK ROMs, Sonya's repeated leg grabs in MK, etc.).
The very first time I played MK on early ROM revisions, I performed
the freeze/uppercut pattern on the computer. Some poor guy joined in
and I tried it out on him. He didn't play the game again after that,
and neither did I. I didn't know if it was a beta-version or what,
but I was unimpressed by the lack of gameplay and foresight of the
game designers of MK.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"It's not unusual to see me cry; I want to die." - Belly
ALAN
MKII
~~~~
> A note about cheese : I was the probably the first guy in my area to quit
> playing MK][. I was among the top 5 in my whole city and surrounding area.
Congrats.
> roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
Never works on me. It took a few games, but there are countless counters.
Tick them with fire-balls or use some ground pounds. Scorps teleport can
be obnoxious to them. Or maybe use Sub, and stay on the ground. Learn
to win a sweep war. Throws make them cry, and then they get careless.
All you have to do, is get the first hit in, and they will start attacking.
Learn the Jump-kick ranges. You can connect with a Jump kick, even against
a ninja-roundhouse. Just jump from farther away. Or don't jump.
But I digress...
> there are only cheesy strategies. The guys that do these are obviously all-
> american. They have that typical attitude that all's fair in love and video
There is NO 100 percent cheese pattern, that can only be countered by the
same pattern. Not ONE. Sounds to me like you just got bored of MKII.
( Like the rest of us...)
VF
~~
> other, and maybe 1 time out of 100 do I see a KO. Where's the fun in crouching
> down, and waiting for the guy to walk in so you can knee-kick him? This is
> fun? Not to me. Does anyone share this attitude? Is it just me being bothered
> by the way things are?
I'm sorry, but everyone who you've seen play must suck rocks. VF is the
most balanced, least cheesy game I have played. A crouch and wait? HA.
A fake, they miss, then they die. Or maybe a Jeffrey mid kick Crucafix
Death stroke. ( Had to throw that in...:D) A Kage sweep. A Sarah knee.
A Sarah double side-kick. Tons of moves.
Anybody who beats me using 1 or 2 patterns deserves to win. It is a
challenge to find the counters to these strategys. Walking away from
anyone who can beat you is not going to help your game. I do
understand your frustration. But trust me. It feels SO GOOD when you
discover a counter and then proceed to slaughter your "cheesy opponent".
If you get a guy/girl who is slaughtering you with one pattern, post
the pattern. Someone will surely post a few counter suggestions.
( More specific than mine for your sake.)
Akira (The Overlord)
Geoff Dyment to others...
< This is a HUGE post. Ooops. >
>
john woodrow sims
Ummmmm, could you tell us a little bit about this
'cheesey' Jacky strategy? I have yet to find a playing
style in VF that has no logical counter. I agree on the
MK SF front, though. Poor playtesting.
Johnny
Pete Philippis
: A note about cheese : I was the probably the first guy in my area to quit
: There were only a few guys that could beat me, and then not consistantly. Then
: there came the cheese we all know and love. The "Let's walk back and forth, and
: roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
Yeah, it can be a problem when you have defensive players who start the
back and forth walk dance. You can quickly stop that however, with Jax!
He'll get 'em jumping. Other good players are Liu Kang and Kung Lao for
their low projectyles. Raiden has a teleport. What I can't stand are
the footsweep battles between the girls and Shang Tsung. Irritating and
mindless.
David Fisher
the only flaw in the game, although a big one. But look at the rest
of the game... The rest was designed perfectly, IMHO. Certain characters
can stop the cheese such as Liu Kang with his low fire ball or Kung
Lao and his hat. Try these on guys that just sit there. Jax's earthquake
is another one that works. I agree, though... The "cheese" can get
boring real quick.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
David Fisher <fis...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> wrote:
>I agree for the most part. MKII ended up so you could cheese... Probably
>the only flaw in the game, although a big one. But look at the rest
>of the game... The rest was designed perfectly, IMHO. Certain characters
So, the game engine sucks, but everything else is perfect, eh?
Sounds like a winner to me. I hope you don't buy your next car
using this arguement.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
KnightoftheRedRose
people cheesed on every game he played......
Well THE ONLY thing I agree with you on is the fact repetitive moves get
boring, not FOR YOU tho it should the guy playing the character.
Cheese is another word for "damn someone found a way to beat me and I
cant find a counter"
It is a typical HUMAN (not american sorry) response.
First of all overall MK II blows. After you find all the little dorky
secrets and moves whats left? Nothing because game play sucks.
I rarely see ANYONE at the MK II machine. Virtua Fighter and Super
SSF II Turb have the players.
As far as Jacky is concerned -- he is damn good THE BEST in the game.
If this was done on purpose or not who knows but its a fact.
Just like guile and dahlsim ruled the orginal Street Fighter II, so
Jacky rules Virtua. And it is not a cheese. his moves are as ligit as
ANYONE elses moves -- its all timing. On SSF II I use Ryu for the most
part and I use his round house combos well. More than one person
has complained cheese... but only when its against them. When they are
using a cheese move it is "hey its his move he can use it". Alot
of people have doublestandards....
Anyway, be careful what you call a cheese, if you are losing find a way
around it, EVEN most cheeses have counters and some moves that counter
good combos can reverse the move and give double damage or more back
on the other character... but dont expect someone to let you use all of
your moves and combos and they just stand their....
No offense to anyone, this is just food for thought.
David Fisher
Also, there are ways around the "cheese".
Scott D Bradburn
Ah, well, why don't you name one of those SF 'cheesey' strategies with
no counter? I haven't found something that's either a) instantly fatal
and nearly impossible to avoid, or b) endlessly repeatable and impossible
to stop. At least not since the first version of SF2.
john woodrow sims
'Cause I asked you first.:) Seriously, I stopped playing SF about the
time MK was getting to be _really_ popular, so I don't know much about
the incarnations that followed the first one. It would stand to reason
that they corrected the inequalities from the first SF2. I took to VF
like a fish to water when it showed up, so I don't spend a cent on any
other fighting game in the arcade. My main point is that on VF, it
seems obvious that the game was playtested to some degree, and the
character balance reflects that. Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.
Johnny
road...@delphi.com
>Anyway, be careful what you call a cheese, if you are losing find a way
>around it, EVEN most cheeses have counters and some moves that counter
>good combos can reverse the move and give double damage or more back
>on the other character... but dont expect someone to let you use all of
>your moves and combos and they just stand their....
play a game that is supposed to be about skill? This is mindless nit-picking
behavior that no one in their right mind could enjoy. I had to quit playing
because I would not find counter-patterns. It's not that I couldn't have; I
just didn't feel it was worth it to become some mindless robot, in endless
cheese pattern wars.
--
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄż
łBurt "Beavis" Ward : ROAD...@Delphi.Com / Shell to DOS... Come on back!ł
łSysOp of the White Knight BBS 304.346.3419 / Shell to DOS... Do you copy? ł
ĂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ´
łStuff that's cool : Beavis and Butt-head, wrestling, Star Trek, programming,ł
łchicks, money, rock, Movies, the Simpsons, Usenet, Letterman, the Far Side, ł
łthe Braves, the Phillies, Ren & Stimpy, comic books, video games, the State,ł
łthe Sci Fi Channel, Kids in the Hall, Hong Kong Phooey, and Heather Locklearł
ĂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ´
łStuff that Sucks : Rap, Hulk Hogan, stupid people, Bill Gates, Knee-Jerk ł
łreligious dorks, the KKK, Prodigy, and Gates McFadden not getting naked. ł
ŔÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄŮ
Cyrus Bulsara
I must agree with you.....I too was among the top few in my city when the
"cheez" patterns came around.Oh yeah I just love playing some jerk using
Sub-Zero who just crouchs and waits for you to move.Wow thats fun.I love
it even more when I outcheez him and he leaves tho.....I just sit there
and wait.Eventually I will win because I know how to do more than one thing...
Its fun to beat these guys tho.....because once you outcheez them they
won't waste thier money losing some more to you....
Just my $.02
--
Cyrus Bulsara,AQ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA ,ENV.ENG.
"How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?"-Neil Gaiman
road...@delphi.com
be avoided. I know that there are counters to every move. My whole point was
that cheese should not exist. I shouldn't *have* to counter a cheese because
it *is* a cheese. The attitude of "let's win at any cost, even if it means
cheesing" and the simultaneous "Hey, it's just a game, what are you all pissed
for" attitude to me indicates that the person I'm playing doesn't care about me
or the game, or the graphics, or anything else but winning. The best way to win
these types of cheese games is to act the computer, and just execute one
mindless series of moves in the same order the same way. This is not skill. Thi
At best it's a pointless attempt to prove your better than another guy. For me
at least, it takes all the fun out of the game to just play defensively, and
do one cheese pattern all the time. It turns into "who will make the first
mistake". If I wanted to play a game like that, I'd play chess.
Dave Kirsch
>"KnightoftheRedRose" <jwmc...@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>This is exactly my original point. Why should I have to out-cheese someone to
>play a game that is supposed to be about skill? This is mindless nit-picking
>behavior that no one in their right mind could enjoy. I had to quit playing
>because I would not find counter-patterns. It's not that I couldn't have; I
>just didn't feel it was worth it to become some mindless robot, in endless
>cheese pattern wars.
These moves aren't cheesy: they WORK.
You can't blame a person for 'not playing right.' Any series of
action or inaction that the game itself allows is acceptable.
Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
It has nothing to do with the people who play: it has to do with the
design of the game itself. You don't see this mindless robot
defensive playing in games like Street Fighter, because the game
environment is designed in such a way that you can 'get at' a
defensive opponent (throw him/her, etc).
The Mortal Kombat series of game systems encourage absolute defensive
play: that's the bottom line. If it bugs you, find a game with a
combat system that doesn't encourage such play.
Just for your info: I'm not a total anti-MK person. I play it as
well. I get called cheap for playing 'robot style.' That's one of the
reasons I hardly play anymore. Why do I play this way? Because I win.
Losing sucks (and costs money!).
If I didn't have to stick in 25 cents everytime I lose, maybe I
wouldn't play so defensively.
--
/// Dave 'Zoid' Kirsch | __ I used to have a life, then I started playing SF2
zo...@grog.mlnet.com | \/ http://www.rsoft.bc.ca/zoid.html
Mills / Allan William (ISE)
When I battled the old woman in PI I often jumped at the start towards
her. Quick as a flash she would run underneath me then perform her
version of the dragon punch from behind me. Almost no human could have
done such a manouver.
I never liked it in SF2 how Balrog could do a series of running punches
which were impossible for a human to perform due to charge time
requirements. I especially hate how Blanka's close range moves trigger
when trying to knock out an air opponent. Blankas' flip kick is great for
air defense but at close range he does that stupid ground kick. The same
with his uppercut which transfers to the stupid double roll and claw.
I swear some games have a special tactic mode they switch to sometimes
which is nearly impossible to beat.
Allan
Tellure
: I agree for the most part. MKII ended up so you could cheese... Probably
^^^^^^
Heh, it's funny how these sayings get started, up here in my neck of
the woods (Vancouver, Canada) the word is "cheap" not "cheese". And if
you pull some unfair manoevres you are being "cheap" or "cheaping someone
out". It kind of makes sense when you think about it because the person
playing unfairly will probably win and thereby not lose their quarter,
hence, they are "cheap" :). BTW, as with "cheese" I'm sure, this word
applies to all player vs. player fighting games, not just MK or SFII.
Anyways, just thought I'd interject that - does anyone know where
"cheese" comes from??
-Aaron
Plucky
> out". It kind of makes sense when you think about it because the person
> playing unfairly will probably win and thereby not lose their quarter,
> hence, they are "cheap" :). BTW, as with "cheese" I'm sure, this word
> applies to all player vs. player fighting games, not just MK or SFII.
> Anyways, just thought I'd interject that - does anyone know where
> "cheese" comes from??
>
> -Aaron
Cheese derives from the Latin root "Jee Wiz" as opposed to the more archaic
term "Fuck You" . The manuvers demonstrated to their newbie and hence less
experienced opponants, became undominatable tricks which could not be grasped
by their younger minds. So the "Cheeze" factor became cheating. While Cheezing
has become outlawed in the more established arcades, It has aquired a status
symbol of rebellion, and has attracted a large underground following. If by
chance you should encounter a "Cheezer" and cannot defeat him. Post his pattern
here and we tell you how to clobber him.
Cited from the "Book of Perpetual Cheeze" -by Lee M. Burger of GreenBay,
Wisconson.
P.S. if you think this is a bunch of "Hooey", Eat your "Wheaties", or I'll kick
you in the "Knads" and whatch you "Hurl". =P
______________________________________________________________________________
[All Information In This File Is]
[For Informational Purposes Only]
[In Other Words: If You FUCK UP!]
[ !DON'T BLAME US! ]
Love and Kisses........................................................Plucky
Aphoriel/Kinsman
Out here in Eastern Canada (New Brunswick), the word is "scam".
We talk about "being scammed", "scamming b******", and "(S)Cammy" :)
The implication here is that you're pulling a hustle or a trick
on the other player. The word is also pretty broad: other phrases
are "fire scam" (any fireball/DPmove tactic done repeatedly)
"corner scam" (any fancy tactic done to keep someone helpless in
a corner.) and "block scam" (any pattern of attack which is easy to
do, forces the (average-to-poor) player to keep on blocking, and
keep taking off ticks of energy.)
>-Aaron
-Aphoriel/Kinsman
Sean Givan
Thomas M. Blair
Le Ric
John Lantz
>Well, a few of you guys have completely missed the point. I know cheeses can
>be avoided. I know that there are counters to every move. My whole point was
>that cheese should not exist. I shouldn't *have* to counter a cheese because
>it *is* a cheese. The attitude of "let's win at any cost, even if it means
>cheesing" and the simultaneous "Hey, it's just a game, what are you all pissed
>for" attitude to me indicates that the person I'm playing doesn't care about me
>or the game, or the graphics, or anything else but winning. The best way to win
>these types of cheese games is to act the computer, and just execute one
>mindless series of moves in the same order the same way. This is not skill. Thi
>
>At best it's a pointless attempt to prove your better than another guy. For me
>at least, it takes all the fun out of the game to just play defensively, and
>do one cheese pattern all the time. It turns into "who will make the first
>mistake".
First off, All I really have to say to you is Grow up. Your
argument about waiting for people making mistakes deosn't make sense at
all. In any kind of competition (video games,sports,and others things)
the key to doing well and winning is waiting for the other player to make
a mistake. For instance in a chess match, when a player makes a wrong
move, are you going to say "You know what, you made a mistake, but I'm
not going to do anything because then I'd be a mindless robot executing a
move that works when you make a mistake". From what you are saying, you
don't want anyone to use a reliable move when you make a mistake. You're
probabley one of those people who just never learn that if jump at the
Ninja's all the time, you are going to get roundhouse or if you jump at
Ryu and Ken you're going to get uppercutted. As mentioned before, these
are called reliable moves that work . What did you expect from everybody,
not use a move that works? If people played the way you *want* them to
play, then the game would not be consistent at all. It would end up being
who gets lucky. You also mentioned that it should be skill that should
win out. Well guess what, skill is using moves that work at the the
right time and knowing when,where and how to use it effectively. How
would you define skill in competition directly against other people?
To me it just seems that your pissed that when people finally start
getting the hang of a game, you get mad because they just don't make
mistakes for you to counter with your mindless robotic style. And BTW no
one *made* you quit playing a game, it's your choice.....If want to whine
about it then tell it to someone that cares...
David Fisher
from the old saying "cheezy" which had a number of meanings. Well,
I live in MD, but depending on where you go, even locally, they use
different words. I just used "cheese" because this guy at my arcade
uses it a lot and I saw it on the board...
Richard Y Choi
i know that this sounds stupid but the 'cheese' is really strange how
it came about. Not like I know exactly, but the word spread by unknown
circumstances around the country. Around here, when the first SF2 came
out, there was this one guy that was incredible at the game. So
generally people listened to his comments. He was using the word cheap
jokingly when his Zangief punched, then SPDed the opponent. One little
kid said, "cheese?" Mistakenly took cheap for cheese. This sounds far
fetched but that was the first time I heard the word even though I
played some time before. I doubt that it came from Latin origins.
Anyone know of this word that came about unobtrusively?
road...@delphi.com
>Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
only in MK I. I could always start a punch-till-they-try-and-uppercut thing if
they just tried to duck. MK I did not have the big prob with MK ][, the fact
that air attacks are useless. Any air attack can be countered with *some* move
by the other guy. And I know *plenty* that do nothing but that.
>Just for your info: I'm not a total anti-MK person. I play it as
>well. I get called cheap for playing 'robot style.' That's one of the
>reasons I hardly play anymore. Why do I play this way? Because I win.
>Losing sucks (and costs money!).
Therefore, I don't play. VF, to me, is even more cheesy than MK and SF because
there are two defense modes : standing and ducking. Also, every character has
a move that will hit either modes. Therefore it becomes more a question of who
can out-guess their opponent more often. This incourages counter-attack play,
more than balance. It becomes a question of who can capitalize the most on a
mistake. I liked SF][ because it was a fast-and-furious type of game for a
while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu. MK][ encourages
pure cheese, mindless counters and defence. VF is mostly trying to out-guess
rather than counters and so on. Thus, the guy that can do the most moves that
hit in both defence modes will win. Jacky is fast, and has the most moves.
That's what makes him good : it's a built-in cheese advantage.
road...@delphi.com
> First off, All I really have to say to you is Grow up. Your
>argument about waiting for people making mistakes deosn't make sense at
>all. In any kind of competition (video games,sports,and others things)
>the key to doing well and winning is waiting for the other player to make
Anyway, this is a typical attitude of the cheeser. They want to continue to win
and don't see anything wrong with it. Ok, I suppose I should have clarified wha
what I meant by mistakes. In the type of game-play I know and love, mistakes
are a split-second affair. The pattern is complex, and intuitive. You play
mostly by instinct, but have that part of your mind saying, "ok, if he does
that I'll do this, and when he AHHA! ok, two taps forward, button" It's a
combination of deductive, computational ability (left brain) and pure
intuitive awarness of the game (right brain). This will "plug" you into the
game, and give you a perfect combination of both hemispheres of your brain. If
you have not had this experiance, I feel sorry for you. This all seems a little
grandios for a video game, but it happens. Like I said, mistakes are split
second. With the cheese moves, the right brain side of the equation is gone.
You now run fully on deduction, and execute moves based on a mindless pattern
that you worked out, or more likely saw someone do. You camly do your little
pattern, and wait for the guy to screw up, like jumping in. In the first type
of play the guys watching are mostly quiet. When one guy gets caught in a move,
they say something along the lines of "Oh, he got nailed!". In the second type
though, everyone knows exactly what mistakes are going to produce what results.
They watch the guy jump and think, "Oh he's gonna get it!". The fun, that
Zen feeling of "being one with the game" is gone, and all that's left is a
chess game with simplistic rules, and few pieces. Anyone who can still have fun
at the game playing this way obviously cares only about winning, and gets all
their thrills from watching the other guy put in more money.
Ok, so my post was larger than VFs FAQ. Sue me.
--
ЪДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДї
іBurt "Beavis" Ward : ROAD...@Delphi.Com / Shell to DOS... Come on back!і
іSysOp of the White Knight BBS 304.346.3419 / Shell to DOS... Do you copy? і
ГДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДґ
іStuff that's cool : Beavis and Butt-head, wrestling, Star Trek, programming,і
іchicks, money, rock, Movies, the Simpsons, Usenet, Letterman, the Far Side, і
іthe Braves, the Phillies, Ren & Stimpy, comic books, video games, the State,і
іthe Sci Fi Channel, Kids in the Hall, Hong Kong Phooey, and Heather Locklearі
ГДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДґ
іStuff that Sucks : Rap, Hulk Hogan, stupid people, Bill Gates, Knee-Jerk і
іreligious dorks, the KKK, Prodigy, and Gates McFadden not getting naked. і
АДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДЩ
Scott D Bradburn
>I liked SF][ because it was a fast-and-furious type of game for a
>while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this?
This shows a SERIOUS lack of knowledge about SF2. The DP has 2 parts: going
up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
oblivion. Now, you say: Every time I try to attack I get hit by a DP! And
I give you a bit of advice: Don't try to throw Ken on his first DP, since
he's too quick to get him when it's unexpected, attack him or throw him on the
second one, which is easy to throw, if you're opponent tends to try multi-DP's.
This is easy to do.
> It's a cheese of the first order.
There's very little in SF2 that's not as easy to counter as it is to do.
Even ticks. No-skill ticks take no skill to counter, and so on.
>SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu.
Rephrase this statement: Ken and Ryu tend to be used as counter-attack/
defensive players. That's accurate. If you want to play offensively, pick
another character. Depending on the version: Vega, Balrog, & Chun Li all
tend to be offensive and work well against different characters. Balrog
and Vega tend to SLAY Ken and Ryu with their offensive capabilities, especially
on recent versions. Chun Li is a very good universal character. She can
beat most characters and she's quite effective even on slightly broken
controllers. She just has some problems against the Ken/Ryu types if they're
in expert hands.
that stupid club
>while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
Boy, your Ken players must be very skilled. And you must be even more
skilled if you can't figure out how to take advantage of this.
By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
Mike Inglis
> guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
> non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
> across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
DO WHAT I DO! Block them on the way up, tag them on the way down. Some
times I can "trick" the computer into doing a DP just when I want it to,
then whammo!
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
I've lost my drum! I've lost my Indian drum!
Dyslexic Frums
>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
>Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
>PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
>--
We all thank you for a worthwhile post and insult. Boy, you sure
enlightened us all!
--
****************************************************************************
Brad Allen ba0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu "He who hesitates
University of Rochester is late"
****************************************************************************
that stupid club
>>By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
>>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
>>Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
>>PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
>>--
> We all thank you for a worthwhile post and insult. Boy, you sure
>enlightened us all!
You're welcome. However, I wasn't the least bit enlightened by your
worthless and meaningless post.
Ming
Dave Kirsch
>>Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
>
>I have to disagree here. I have yet to find a person who can play me
>defensive only in MK I. I could always start a
>punch-till-they-try-and-uppercut thing if they just tried to duck. MK
>I did not have the big prob with MK ][, the fact that air attacks are
>useless. Any air attack can be countered with *some* move
>by the other guy. And I know *plenty* that do nothing but that.
The counter for someone standing over you and punching is a crouching
kick (otherwise known as the 'wimpy kick'). Doesn't do that much damage,
but it pushes them away.
MK I and II promote completely defensive play. I could make a table of
your opponents does this, you do that. One of the main reasons is the
lack of moves in total (there's only about 10 moves per character).
There aren't any moves that get your opponent into a position where you'll
be at an advantage.
SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
>The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
Pardon? The dragon-punch is COMPLETELY vulnerable on the way down, just
sweep him. Your understanding of the mechanics of SF2 seems limited.
SF2 does seem to have a huge population of Ken and Ryu players. I think
that's mostly because they are easy to learn. Personally, I play them
once in a while, but they are not my main focus. Because of the huge
infestation of Ken/Ryu players, I play characters that are excellent
against them: naming Balrog and Guile (Vega is an excellent destroyer
of Ken/Ryu as well). About the only character that gives me trouble
when I'm playing the 'Rog is Zangief, and hardly anyone plays him.
>SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu.
What about the other 14 characters (I don't include Akuma, since he's
Ryu on steroids). You are not limited to just playing Ryu/Ken.
road...@delphi.com
like to say that I think that if you guys could play the two dudes I am refer-
ing to, you might change your minds. As far as I know, there is nothing you
can do to get by this crap. The best example I know of if the fireball. I
would throw out a jab fireball, and it would go right through him, ON THE WAY
DOWN! Ken's feet don't hit the floor when the guys do this. Like I said earlier
Ken says "shoruken" (True spelling ignored). Ok, when the jab DP is going on,
Ken says this : shshshshshsh. What are you supposed to do? Name something,
and I'll say I tried it and it didn't work. Maybe I can get some MPEGs of this
so you guys can see what I'm talking about. The main point is this : even if
this is just me, and others defeat it easily, the guy that would use that, and
nothing but that is cheeser at heart. Hell, one of these guys could beat me
without it, and he would *still* use it piss me off.
rpm
> Scott D Bradburn <sc...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> writes:
>
> >This shows a SERIOUS lack of knowledge about SF2. The DP has 2 parts: going
> >up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
> >HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
>
> Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
> I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
> to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
> refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
> is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
alot of characters can... who do you use?
it is definitely -=NOT=- the incincible tactic that you describe it to be.
> catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
> this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
no, some of use need to make an MPEG for you...
-rpm
rpm
> Ken says this : shshshshshsh. What are you supposed to do? Name something,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
shshshsh?
it dawned on me, like when a fella finally discovers the answer to a
really tough riddle. Scott, you shoulda known! ;)
roadblock,
YOU'RE PLAYING AN ILLEGAL CHIP MACHINE!!!!!!
ug. I should have noticed that description before!
_NO_ regular sf2 machine goes shshshshshhshsh!!!!
you are playing on a "hacked" chip, illegaly made and altered.
and obviously you've found out the downfalls of these things,
which is game balance is shot to hell.
On some of them K/R can shoot CHAINS of fireballs, on some Guile has
NO charge, etc etc etc.
okay, roadblock, it's time for you to get justice.
Go and demand to face'em on a NORMAL machine.
what's a normal machine?
- there should NOT be a "SHSHSHSHSHS"
- speed should not be absurd
- try to find a SSF2T or SSF2 machine. There has been no illegal
chips made of those yet (at least, none that I know of)
and that'll make sure you get a fair shake.
-RpM
road...@delphi.com
>up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
>HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
road...@delphi.com
>By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
but it caused SF][ playing in my area to *stop* after these guys started
playing. What *do* you do? I never found a way to beat it. The guy that
started it up is a friend of mine, and I played him for maybe an hour one
day without coming up with anything, other than another DP. What is your
solution?
Scott D Bradburn
>Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
>I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
>to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
>refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
>is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
>catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
>this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
>up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
The only way a DP series couldn't be countered would involve them continually
moving upward. This requires a hacked machine, in which case, you can't do
anything. On the other hand, if they're moving across the ground, that means
they're going up and down, and you can EASILY sweep them on the way down if
you have any sense of timing. You must sweep them before or when they land,
and not later, or the next DP will catch you, but it can be done, and it's
not even hard. We have plenty of people who can do jab DP series, but they're
smart enough not to. And about the fireball not hitting them: That's not
a big deal, they're smart enough to make sure their DP has the right timing
to avoid the fireball, they can't do the same with a throw/sweep/combo.
The repeated DP has one use: Throw a random DP which catches the opponent
a little off guard, they try to counter just a hair too late and get caught
in the second DP. The second or any subsequent DP is simple to counter if
you wait on it.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
One of two things ais happening here:
1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
SOLUTION: I doubt that this is the case. Can people throw FBs in
the air? Are the colors messed up? Is it insanely
fast? If so, you're playing on a butchered version of
the game...stop playing it.
2) You're not very experienced at SF2.
SOLUTION: Ken's been able to do his little continuous DP since CE.
the way to stop this is to hit him with a _low_ attack
like a crouched forward as he's coming down from the DP.
This takes timing, but is insanely simple to do once you've
seen it done. Several other people have offered this same
solution.
We know exactly what you're talking about, and it's nothing special.
Try the counter. Don't counter with an FB, and don't counter with a
Rounhouse. Counter with a fst, far-reaching attack. Once you've
got the timing down, you can try the big stuff, like countering with
a throw.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Mike Inglis
> SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
> with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
> if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
Well, you can usually jump over a projectile if you time it right, although
you may find yourself suckered into something. (As I often do.)
Also, doesn't MK also let you throw a defending opponent. It seems I've
gotten thrown a few times while blocking. (As long as we're talking about
throws in MK, could somebody just explain to me how you do them? The FAQs
I've seen spend a great deal of time explaining the special moves, but I
can't figure out how to @!*%@ reliably throw an opponent.)
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Wilson Phillips, The Bangles . . .
just one chick from L7 could kick all their asses combined.
-- Beavis & Butthead
Mike Inglis
> Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
> I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
> to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
> refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
> is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
> catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
> this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
> up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
>
This is starting to sound like one of those "radical" editions with the
severely hacked chip. Can Guile fill the screen up with continuous
wavy Sonic Booms while "floating" in mid-air? We had one like that in
my arcaade for a while and I just stspped playing because this kid
would always walk up, pick Guile, and just start spitting Sonic Booms
out like a gatling gun. (In case any of you haven't seen this, I'm
talking about 10-15 sonic booms all over the screen at once.) An old E.
Honda player like me had no way to even get close to him. If your
arcade has a hacked hame like that, just stop playing. Its *severely*
tipped in certain character's favor.
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
Look at that chord structure! There's sadness in that chord structure!
He doesn't know it yet, but he's balding . . . spiritually.
Brian Chan
>Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
>I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
>to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
>refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
>is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
>catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
>this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
>up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What are you playing, a hacked SF2? Of course Ken's DP has a delay time,
it's just been shortened ever since CE. Just time your attacks more carefully.
If you want a character that can retaliate easier than most, try Balrog.
that stupid club
>The only way a DP series couldn't be countered would involve them continually
>moving upward. This requires a hacked machine, in which case, you can't do
>anything.
This isn't even true. The guy just sucks and he's trying to cover his
ass. On the hacked machines, you could do a DP at anytime you could do
a normal move in addition to the times you can interrupt a move with a
DP. But you could not interrupt a DP with another DP. First thing I
tried.
>On the other hand, if they're moving across the ground, that means
>they're going up and down, and you can EASILY sweep them on the way down if
>you have any sense of timing.
I don't see why you feel obligated to respond to roadblock's crap.
If this blatantly obvious solution is beyond him, then how are you
going to convince him that ticking, faking, and other subtleties
are not 'cheap' or 'cheese'?
Let him go on thinking that the two dudes in his area are fucking
Street Fighter Gods and we here on the internet are full of shit.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"You might as well be dead he said, if you're afraid to fall." -TM
that stupid club
>1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
You can't interrupt a DP with another DP on any of the hacked machines.
I've tried.
>2) You're not very experienced at SF2.
Obviously, he sucks at the game. His opinion of what is 'cheesy'
is based on very little substance. To add further insult to his
credibility, he comes back with replies insisting he's correct
after every tells him (more politely than me) how completely
wrong he is.
>We know exactly what you're talking about, and it's nothing special.
>Try the counter. Don't counter with an FB, and don't counter with a
>Rounhouse. Counter with a fst, far-reaching attack. Once you've
>got the timing down, you can try the big stuff, like countering with
>a throw.
This is such elementary newbie stuff. If you have to hand hold him
through a counter for continuous jab DP's, then how are you ever
going to convince him that stuff like Zangief's SPD ticks are not
cheap? Or that ticks are not cheap? Or even that DP's are vulnerable
as Ken/Ryu get up?
The real kicker is that he insists that he's not completely clueless
about the game. As if those two Ken players in his area have
discovered some elfin SF2 magic which has eluded the cumulative
knowledge of four years of the SF2 newsgroup. It could happen!
Adam Tennant
>SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
>with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
>if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
>>The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
>Pardon? The dragon-punch is COMPLETELY vulnerable on the way down, just
>sweep him. Your understanding of the mechanics of SF2 seems limited.
>SF2 does seem to have a huge population of Ken and Ryu players. I think
>that's mostly because they are easy to learn. Personally, I play them
>once in a while, but they are not my main focus. Because of the huge
>infestation of Ken/Ryu players, I play characters that are excellent
>against them: naming Balrog and Guile (Vega is an excellent destroyer
>of Ken/Ryu as well). About the only character that gives me trouble
>when I'm playing the 'Rog is Zangief, and hardly anyone plays him.
I agree with what you're saying, so what if they can dragon punch 'till the
cows come home, just paste 'em as they come down!
Things must be a bit different here ( Auckland, New Zealand ), because I've
only ever seen Balrog played once and Zangief is quite popular. ( He's my
favourite! ). I use him very effectively to stomp Kens and Ryus unless they
are really good when they can give you some trouble. We have masses of Kens
and Ryus here too ( more fun for Zangy! ) and a lot of Guiles too ( Blanka
is my Guile killer ) so I get lots of practise fighting them.
Well anyway, to the guy complaining about "cheese", get some more practise!
See ya round like a round thing,
Adam.
RPM
>In article <ZU7QbD5....@delphi.com>, <road...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>Scott D Bradburn <sc...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> writes:
>One of two things ais happening here:
>
>1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
>
>SOLUTION: I doubt that this is the case.
It is. He described the "shshshshshshsh" sound of Ken
repeating his DP as only a hacked chip will allow.
-rpm
Tony `Xot' Morse and Co.
>
>This is starting to sound like one of those "radical" editions with the
>severely hacked chip. Can Guile fill the screen up with continuous
>wavy Sonic Booms while "floating" in mid-air? We had one like that in
>my arcaade for a while and I just stspped playing because this kid
>would always walk up, pick Guile, and just start spitting Sonic Booms
>out like a gatling gun. (In case any of you haven't seen this, I'm
>talking about 10-15 sonic booms all over the screen at once.) An old E.
>Honda player like me had no way to even get close to him. If your
>arcade has a hacked hame like that, just stop playing. Its *severely*
>tipped in certain character's favor.
>
both of the ones I played allowed you to change characters by hitting Start.
Oh yeah, and one of them crashed whenever Sagat threw a low tiger. =)
road...@delphi.com
couldn't tell you if it was a hacked machine or not, all I do know is that if
I let off the defense, the jab DP would hit me from half the screen away. Draw
your own conclusions. The machine this was on is long gone, so I couldn't tell
you anymore about it. The guy was *really* good with Ken anyway, so I just
assumed that this was a built-in move, and quit playing SF][ altogether.
Reguardless of this, I feel my original posts about cheese are still valid.
Mindless cheese patterns diminish the value of a game no matter if you view
them fair or not. YEs, every cheese has a counter. Yes it's possible to out-
cheese people. That's not the point!Cheese patterns reduce the game to a slow
paced, predictable, chess game. If the rules were a little more complex, this
might be fun. As it is, the game play is boring. I remember when MK I was
getting fairly old, and everything had been found out. The Ermac thing had
been dismissed in our area as crap. There were no hidden trills left. Yet
many many people continued to play the game, because they enjoyed playing other
people. Now? MK][ has more characters, more fatalities, more sounds, more of
everything, and yet it's rare I see someone playing MK][ in my area. Why? The
cheese players are *always* coming in and whipping them silly. There are more
people playing MK I now than MK][. And hardly anyone in my area plays VF now
because of a handful of Jacky players. They feel much the way I do, that
repeating some mindless cheese moves is not real fun. If you feel otherwise,
(Ming, this means you) more power to you. As for me, I'll stick with pinball
where your only opponent is yourself.
Tony `Xot' Morse and Co.
>gotten thrown a few times while blocking. (As long as we're talking about
>throws in MK, could somebody just explain to me how you do them? The FAQs
>I've seen spend a great deal of time explaining the special moves, but I
>can't figure out how to @!*%@ reliably throw an opponent.)
>
Throws can be blocked in MKII only by holding down-away and block.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>ROADBLOCK flaming seems to be popular right now, mostly with Ming. I
Don't worry about the flamage....you're not the first or worst. =)
I'm telling you this because I'm about to flame you. Don't take it too
personally, but you're jabbering on about something you know next to
nothing about.
>couldn't tell you if it was a hacked machine or not, all I do know is that if
>I let off the defense, the jab DP would hit me from half the screen away. Draw
>your own conclusions. The machine this was on is long gone, so I couldn't tell
>you anymore about it.
How convenient that the machine has disappeared. Seems like just yesterday
you were talking about posting an MPEG for us. They take it away overnight?
>The guy was *really* good with Ken anyway, so I just
>assumed that this was a built-in move, and quit playing SF][ altogether.
I'll take this with a gain of salt, given your knowledge of SF2.
Wait...better give me the whole shaker. =)
>Reguardless of this, I feel my original posts about cheese are still valid.
>Mindless cheese patterns diminish the value of a game no matter if you view
>them fair or not. YEs, every cheese has a counter. Yes it's possible to out-
>cheese people. That's not the point!Cheese patterns reduce the game to a slow
>paced, predictable, chess game.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
'Predictable chess' is an oxymoron. I'd love it if any video game had
the complexity of chess, and here you are using it in a negative
connotation. =(
At any rate, you've just negated your own arguement. It's _because_ every
cheese has a counter that cheese cannot make the game slow and predictable.
Sure, there are idioms that seem to happen a lot. Most of these are
attempts to strenghten your position (cheese for you). However,
depending on how the defender counters, and how good you are at reading
and reacting to that counter, the game can go in any number of
directions.
>If the rules were a little more complex, this
>might be fun. As it is, the game play is boring.
But you don't know _anything_ about the game! You've shown that much.
I'll give you a hint...the rules _are_ complex. Suppose Ryu is jamming
away with a series of blocked short kicks. You've got to decide if Ryu's
just messing around, or if he's going in for the throw. Ryu can either
keep throwing kicks, or tick, or _fake_ the tick and do a jab DP,
smacking you in the face. If you guess that Ryu's not going to tick,
his fake whiffs and _you_ can try to go for a throw. If you do, you've
got to do it quickly, 'cause when Ryu comes down he can DP again (I'm
sure you've had experience with this). Of course, you can fake
the throw and wait for Ryu to DP again, where you'll have plenty of time....
if Ryu goes for your fake. If he doesn't, you might be eating a
roundhouse sweep......
In a high level match, nearly _every_ round is full of this stuff!
The game is made MORE complex with cheese. Every pressure situation
above was created by the threat of a throw. Remove that threat and
the game becomes a block-fest.
>I remember when MK I was
>getting fairly old, and everything had been found out. The Ermac thing had
>been dismissed in our area as crap. There were no hidden trills left. Yet
>many many people continued to play the game, because they enjoyed playing other
>people. Now? MK][ has more characters, more fatalities, more sounds, more of
>everything, and yet it's rare I see someone playing MK][ in my area. Why? The
>cheese players are *always* coming in and whipping them silly. There are more
>people playing MK I now than MK][.
People don't play MK2 anymore because the absolute optimum strategy
have been discovered, and it's not that hard to do. This is not cheese,
this is lack of complexity. SF2 has more ways to cheese than you can
imagine, yet it remains popular because there is no single 'best-way'
to play.
>And hardly anyone in my area plays VF now
>because of a handful of Jacky players. They feel much the way I do, that
>repeating some mindless cheese moves is not real fun. If you feel otherwise,
>(Ming, this means you) more power to you. As for me, I'll stick with pinball
>where your only opponent is yourself.
This is getting sad. Maybe if you didn't give up at these games so
quickly, you'd learn the complexity and skill involved and have fun
again. Do you give up at everything so easily, or just arcade games? =)
So you're playing pinball because you don't like pattern play, eh?
Explain that to me.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Philip John Stroffolino
away. Draw
>>your own conclusions. The machine this was on is long gone, so I
couldn't tell
>>you anymore about it.
>
>How convenient that the machine has disappeared. Seems like just yesterday
>you were talking about posting an MPEG for us. They take it away overnight?
Don't make fun of this guy too_ hard ^_^
- there's a machine near where I live that exhibits the following properties:
Ken's jab DP flies half way across the screen
Ken lands before his opponent recovers from block stun
Ken lands a safe distance away
Yes, on this particular hacked machine jab DPs totally screw up gameplay.
Scott D Bradburn
|> Well, I think it's pretty sad that you're willing to state as a fact that I
|> know next to nothing about a game based on a couple of posts. In fact, just
|> because I said I couldn't get past the JDP when a couple guys did it. You've
|> never seen me play, and you haven't played me. I've played SF][ in over 7
|> cities, and the *only* people that could beat me consistantly are the Ken
|> people that do what *I* consider to be a cheese pattern. So don't tell me I
|> don't know anything about the game based on one thing I said that may just
|> be me, or it may be the machine. That's as close to flaming as I get.
Your inability to get past a jab DP series effectively (except for the
possibility of a hacked machine) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you
are not, by any stretch of the imagination, good.
[I'm not going to discuss predictable chess or if cheesy SF2 is like chess]
|> Well, I stated in a previous post that I like SF][ *because* the rules are
|> complex. It's almost impossible to do what *I* consider a cheese to be with
|> SF][. That is, a series of moves that the only way to defeat the person who
|> does them is to use the counter-cheese.
Great definition. I declare repeated DP's to be cheese because you have to
counter attack them to stop it. I declare attacking to be cheese because you
have to counter attack to beat them. I declare throwing to be cheese (at all
times) because you have to counter attack or counter-throw to stop it. Good
definition. Now anything I say is cheese is cheese, because there is no strategy
that can be beaten by doing nothing.
|> Well, that's using your definition of cheese, not mine. There is no real way to
|> cheese in SF][ becasue there is no single 'best-way' to play. The only real
|> cheese in SF][ is the Ken and Ryu DP cheeses. I *KNOW* there are ways around
|> it. I can get by this cheese with almost every guy. The whole point in my
|> starting this thread was that cheeses like this make the game boring. I never
|> said I couldn't defeat cheeses (JDPs excluded), I just said it was no fun.
Now, wait. Ken jab DP's repeatedly, I combo him for 1/3 of his life. Ken jab
DP's repeatedly, I combo him for 1/3 of his life again. How long is Ken going
to keep trying this silly strategy? He gets maybe 2 pixels, I get half his life.
How long are we going to stay in a 'cheese' pattern if you have a counter for it?
Answer (for people above a 10 IQ) is not very long.
Jeff Shih
>
>Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
>I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
>to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
>refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
>is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
>catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
You are saying their feet pixels do NOT, not even for a millisecond, come
into contact with the playing line? Only the illegal machines offer that.
>this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
>up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
A half a cm is enough time to throw them if you block the DP. That is
plenty time for a skilled player. Still you have to react fast, but its
still a simple matter.
-da...@qedbbs.com
that stupid club
>because I said I couldn't get past the JDP when a couple guys did it. You've
>never seen me play, and you haven't played me. I've played SF][ in over 7
>cities, and the *only* people that could beat me consistantly are the Ken
>people that do what *I* consider to be a cheese pattern. So don't tell me I
>don't know anything about the game based on one thing I said that may just
>be me, or it may be the machine. That's as close to flaming as I get.
Okay. So I guess you played SF2 in over 7 cities, and you still can't
tell the difference between a normal version and a hacked version of SF2?
I suppose *all* of the versions in those 7 cities were the hackes ones?
And if you're having problems with repeated jab DP's on non-hacked
versions, then why *shouldn't* we think that you suck?
>Well, ok, I should've stated here what I stated later. That it plays like a
>chess game when people cheese all day, but the rules are not complex enough to
>make it a challenge.
Interesting. When I play the game, the cheese adds more randomness and
chaos to the game, making it less patternish and predictable.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"Someday you will ache like I ache." -Hole
road...@delphi.com
>I'm telling you this because I'm about to flame you. Don't take it too
>personally, but you're jabbering on about something you know next to
>nothing about.
know next to nothing about a game based on a couple of posts. In fact, just
never seen me play, and you haven't played me. I've played SF][ in over 7
cities, and the *only* people that could beat me consistantly are the Ken
people that do what *I* consider to be a cheese pattern. So don't tell me I
don't know anything about the game based on one thing I said that may just
be me, or it may be the machine. That's as close to flaming as I get.
>the complexity of chess, and here you are using it in a negative
>connotation. =(
chess game when people cheese all day, but the rules are not complex enough to
make it a challenge.
>away with a series of blocked short kicks. You've got to decide if Ryu's
complex. It's almost impossible to do what *I* consider a cheese to be with
SF][. That is, a series of moves that the only way to defeat the person who
does them is to use the counter-cheese.
>have been discovered, and it's not that hard to do. This is not cheese,
>this is lack of complexity. SF2 has more ways to cheese than you can
>imagine, yet it remains popular because there is no single 'best-way'
>to play.
cheese in SF][ becasue there is no single 'best-way' to play. The only real
cheese in SF][ is the Ken and Ryu DP cheeses. I *KNOW* there are ways around
it. I can get by this cheese with almost every guy. The whole point in my
starting this thread was that cheeses like this make the game boring. I never
said I couldn't defeat cheeses (JDPs excluded), I just said it was no fun.
>quickly, you'd learn the complexity and skill involved and have fun
>again. Do you give up at everything so easily, or just arcade games? =)
probably won't believe me this time either, I can get past the cheeses. I can
beat the crap out of %99 of the people that I've ever played in MK][. But the
only way to counter cheese is with more cheese, and *that is no fun*! As it
happens in MK][ the cheese patterns are mostly defensive. I've never seen a
n offensive cheese pattern, because everyone uses the defensive. So, when
people cheese, they roundhouse people out the air, initiate sweep wars, and
all the other crap. This is just not good playing to me. True, if my opponent
cheese and I don't (in MK][) I will get beat. But I still think it takes more
talent to play an offensive game, and try to take advantage of the split-second
mistakes in that mode, instead of just seeing who will be the first to jump in
and watch them get roundhoused (Is that a word?). Case in point : the two best
cheesers in my area play each other every now and again. It almost always ends
up with both players having almost full life, and the winner decided after the
time limit expires. What fun is that?
Brian Chan
> Well, I think it's pretty sad that you're willing to state as a fact that I
> know next to nothing about a game based on a couple of posts. In fact, just
> because I said I couldn't get past the JDP when a couple guys did it. You've
> never seen me play, and you haven't played me. I've played SF][ in over 7
> cities, and the *only* people that could beat me consistantly are the Ken
> people that do what *I* consider to be a cheese pattern. So don't tell me I
> don't know anything about the game based on one thing I said that may just
> be me, or it may be the machine. That's as close to flaming as I get.
Well, by your unequivocal statement that a DP dance is uncounterable,
you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to me that you don't know all
that much about SF2. Just because *you* can't get out of something,
doesn't mean that it *is* impossible. Is it *that* hard for you to time
a simple sweep? If so, I don't see how you can be as good as you claim,
if you don't even have basics like this down yet.
And I highly doubt that in all 7 cities that you've played in, you managed
to pick a hacked machine. (Which Ming said is impossible to interrupt a
DP with another DP anyways). So I think it's you, not the machine.
> Well, I stated in a previous post that I like SF][ *because* the rules are
> complex. It's almost impossible to do what *I* consider a cheese to be with
> SF][. That is, a series of moves that the only way to defeat the person who
> does them is to use the counter-cheese.
Oh, I see. Then a DP dance is "almost impossible" to do. I guess that
makes it fair then, since it's so hard to do.
Alright then, let's hear an example of what you consider "cheesy" in SF2.
Your circular definitions aside, are you saying that sweeps and throws are
cheap, because they are used to counter a missed DP? In that case, I suppose
all punches and kicks are cheap. Why don't we take it a step further, and
just say beating you is cheap?
> Well, that's using your definition of cheese, not mine. There is no real way to
> cheese in SF][ becasue there is no single 'best-way' to play. The only real
> cheese in SF][ is the Ken and Ryu DP cheeses. I *KNOW* there are ways around
> it. I can get by this cheese with almost every guy. The whole point in my
> starting this thread was that cheeses like this make the game boring. I never
> said I couldn't defeat cheeses (JDPs excluded), I just said it was no fun.
So you can counterthrow consistently, but you can't get past a DP dance?
You'll forgive me if I say I don't believe you.
Many people consider ticking to be cheap. But does that make the game
boring? Quite the opposite. It's a hell of a lot more exciting and a
lot less predictable than a block-fest, at least.
> I never said that I had quit before I was good. As I have said, and you
> probably won't believe me this time either, I can get past the cheeses. I can
> beat the crap out of %99 of the people that I've ever played in MK][. But the
> only way to counter cheese is with more cheese, and *that is no fun*! As it
> happens in MK][ the cheese patterns are mostly defensive. I've never seen a
> n offensive cheese pattern, because everyone uses the defensive. So, when
> people cheese, they roundhouse people out the air, initiate sweep wars, and
> all the other crap. This is just not good playing to me. True, if my opponent
> cheese and I don't (in MK][) I will get beat. But I still think it takes more
> talent to play an offensive game, and try to take advantage of the split-second
> mistakes in that mode, instead of just seeing who will be the first to jump in
> and watch them get roundhoused (Is that a word?). Case in point : the two best
> cheesers in my area play each other every now and again. It almost always ends
> up with both players having almost full life, and the winner decided after the
> time limit expires. What fun is that?
This is getting really pathetic. If people don't play in YOUR preferred
style, why is that cheap? If people play defensive, is it because they
really want to be a bastard and ruin your day? No. It's because it
*works*. It's (one of the many) flaws in MK2's gameplay. If the
designers made a poor game that encourages defensive play, then it's
the designer's fault, not the players. If someone jumps at you, and you
know that you can: a) roundhouse with 100% success, or b) do some other
move that has, let's say, 50% success, then why wouldn't someone use a)?
What would you prefer people do? Stand there and let you hit them?
I'm trying hard not to call you a whiner, but it really looks like you
want to invent "rules" for a game such that they suit you better.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>
>>I'm telling you this because I'm about to flame you. Don't take it too
>>personally, but you're jabbering on about something you know next to
>>nothing about.
>
>Well, I think it's pretty sad that you're willing to state as a fact that I
>know next to nothing about a game based on a couple of posts. In fact, just
>because I said I couldn't get past the JDP when a couple guys did it. You've
>never seen me play, and you haven't played me. I've played SF][ in over 7
>cities, and the *only* people that could beat me consistantly are the Ken
>people that do what *I* consider to be a cheese pattern. So don't tell me I
>don't know anything about the game based on one thing I said that may just
>be me, or it may be the machine. That's as close to flaming as I get.
Ok...this is a reasonable complaint. So I'll justify my reasoning.
You said that you COULDN'T get out of the Ken multiple DP trap.
The only possible way this could be so is
1) You're really bad and no next to nothing about the game.
2) You're playing on some new flavor of hacked machine.
If it's 1, then you're just bad. If it's 2, and you COULDN'T RECOGNIZE
that you were on a hacked machine, then your knowledge of the game
is pitiful indeed.
So, based on what you posted, the only resonable conclusion is that
you just don't know squat about SF2.
[cheese stuff and enormous sig deleted]
--
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
road...@delphi.com
>counter attack them to stop it. I declare attacking to be cheese because you
>have to counter attack to beat them. I declare throwing to be cheese (at all
>times) because you have to counter attack or counter-throw to stop it. Good
>definition. Now anything I say is cheese is cheese, because there is no strategy
>that can be beaten by doing nothing.
attacked. Yes, I can do it. Yes, I have dome it on MK][, SF][, and VF. The
point (one more time!) is that it is not fun. It leeches all the enjoyment out
of the game sit there and act like a computer instead of a human. I didn't
say that counter-attacks were cheese. I simply stated (MANY times now) that
pure defensive playing, mostly in MK][, is cheesy (according to my definition
of the word) because the only way to defeat it is to do it better. The top
two cheese players in my area *always* run out of time before either is half-
way down on his life bar when they play each other. Is that fun? Not to me...
road...@delphi.com
>You are saying their feet pixels do NOT, not even for a millisecond, come
>into contact with the playing line? Only the illegal machines offer that.
would be at the place I normally air-throw him with Vega after a Strong, and
start right back up. I watched it intently for a half-hour trying to beat it.
The feet did not contact the playing surface. I just assumed (because I didn't
have net.access at the time) that this was a standard feature of SF][, or a
design flaw. The machine has been replaced by SSF][ now, so I can't check it
further. I'm going to try to find that dude, and see if he can do it on a
different machine.
road...@delphi.com
>Okay. So I guess you played SF2 in over 7 cities, and you still can't
>tell the difference between a normal version and a hacked version of SF2?
>I suppose *all* of the versions in those 7 cities were the hackes ones?
Y
>Interesting. When I play the game, the cheese adds more randomness and
>chaos to the game, making it less patternish and predictable.
>
>Ming
to MK][ where the wait-till-the-guy-jumps-and-roundhouse-him strategy is used.
Like I said in an earlier post, the two best cheesers in my area play each
other sometimes, and it always ends up a time limit call, and both have most
of their life. Oh, and I didn't mean the Ken players would pull the JDP thing,
I just mean the standard SF][ cheese (my definition) of Ken just tossing FBs,
and DPing anyone who jumps. Sure I can get by it by out-cheesing them, but it
just isn't fun for me. So, I stuck with Vega, or Blanka, or whoever, and just
got beat once to get off the machine.
road...@delphi.com
>And I highly doubt that in all 7 cities that you've played in, you managed
>to pick a hacked machine. (Which Ming said is impossible to interrupt a
15 people jump on me. I didn't mean it to sound like I meant the JDP was what
these guys employ elsewhere. I'm talking about the standard Ken cheese the
computer uses, that of throwing fireballs, and DPing anyone that jumps in. YES
I can beat these guys, I just don't like to, because I have to out-cheese them.
I have only met two guys, on *one* particular machine, that could DP me into
oblivion. As for me not being good at SF][ well, I don't know how high the
standards are here, but my personal record is 7 1/2 hours on 1 credit. And the
only reason I stopped was because I couldn't move my fingers anymore. I would
not even bring it up, but some of you guys just assume I'm horrible at the
game.
road...@delphi.com
this thread, was to talk about *my* definition of cheese. And yes I have a
huge .SIG, that's just the kind of depraved scum I am :)
>If it's 1, then you're just bad. If it's 2, and you COULDN'T RECOGNIZE
>that you were on a hacked machine, then your knowledge of the game
>is pitiful indeed.
play must be horrible. And if it's two, I wouldn't be so sure about that. The
only times I played that machine, that guy that could do the JDP was there. It
was at a movie theater, and he worked there. So, every time I showed up, he
would practically vault from behind the counter, proclaim himself to be the
SF][ champ, and kick my ass. The way I could beat him was to also pick Ken,
do a Strong DP when he came in for the JDP, so as to get behind him. Then I
could fireball him, and keep doing this. Hacked or not, I really don't care,
it has nothing to do with my original posts. I want to talk about Cheese. You
must have read my posts, what do you think of my opinions? Do you think a big
sweep war/roundhouse contest is fun? Especially when it expires the time
every single time, and both guys have most of their life?
Tellure
: ROADBLOCK flaming seems to be popular right now, mostly with Ming. I
: couldn't tell you if it was a hacked machine or not, all I do know is that if
: I let off the defense, the jab DP would hit me from half the screen away. Draw
: your own conclusions. The machine this was on is long gone, so I couldn't tell
: you anymore about it. The guy was *really* good with Ken anyway, so I just
: assumed that this was a built-in move, and quit playing SF][ altogether.
Sounds like a hacked machine to me. We have *LOADS* of these hacked
machines here in Vancouver. I think they come in from HK or something,
but there were a ton of them around for a while, now they are sortof
dwindling as SSF2 and Turbo SSF2 become more popular. The best hacked
machine I ever played on was only *slightly* hacked - it was a Hyper
fighting versoion that was speeded up only SLIGHTLY. But it made it SO
much more fun to play, it was the ultimate competition machine.
-Aaron
Scott D Bradburn
>Oh, and I didn't mean the Ken players would pull the JDP thing,
>I just mean the standard SF][ cheese (my definition) of Ken just tossing FBs,
>and DPing anyone who jumps. Sure I can get by it by out-cheesing them, but it
>just isn't fun for me. So, I stuck with Vega, or Blanka, or whoever, and just
>got beat once to get off the machine.
Errr... You keep trying to prove you're not a scrub, but you're not succeeding.
Defensive FB/DP tactics can be easily defeated by offensive play from several
characters. So lucky you, if you're not a scrub you can use offensive play
to defeat defensive (cheap to you) play. If they can kill your Vega with
FB/DP tactics, you're once again calling yourself a scrub to any experienced
players. Any FB against Vega should result in a boot or claw in Ken/Ryu's
face, and if you're not mis-jumping fireballs you shouldn't get DP'd. Now
you've defeated FB/DP's by offensive (non-cheap to you) tactics.
Balrog can do much the same thing a little differently.
And if you start worrying about nasty Sagats who are even tougher then Kens
and Ryus, Dhalsim can offensively beat Kens, Ryus, and Sagats out of their
defensive games.
Gee, it's fortunate that SF is well-designed enough to have offensive styles
capable of killing all the defensive styles.
Brian Chan
> Sounds like a hacked machine to me. We have *LOADS* of these hacked
>machines here in Vancouver. I think they come in from HK or something,
Taiwan, actually.
>but there were a ton of them around for a while, now they are sortof
>dwindling as SSF2 and Turbo SSF2 become more popular. The best hacked
>machine I ever played on was only *slightly* hacked - it was a Hyper
>fighting versoion that was speeded up only SLIGHTLY. But it made it SO
>much more fun to play, it was the ultimate competition machine.
Anyone ever see a hack called "Grand Dragon"? Apparently, you do a DP,
and 30 homing fireballs come out at all levels...
Alain Hoang
In article <Ju9zcjD....@delphi.com>, <road...@delphi.com> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>
>>[cheese stuff and enormous sig deleted]
>
>huge .SIG, that's just the kind of depraved scum I am :)
>
[blah blah blah deleted]
So in otherwords you're saying this... Ken throws a fireball.
Now YOU decide to jump over this fireball and hit Ken. But duh I waited
a second before jumping over. Now Ken sees this and proceeds to uppercut
knocking your tail back on the floor. now he throws another fireball......
This is cheez?
This is called a fireball trap. Lemme spell this out for you.
F-I-R-E-B-A-L-L T-R-A-P. You look carefully? Okay we see two words.
fireball implying this has something to do with a fireball or projectile
type attack. Now we see the word trap. What does the word trap conjure
to you? Rabbits caught in some silly knot trap? Well for your information
the word trap is a little more varied and surprise surpise you have been
officially caught in one. Now as the poor bum who got into it, you gotta
get out. But it's easy with Blanka or Vega right? VERY good good boy,
I see we're progressing. Come back next week grasshopper and we'll teach
you how to get out of it with Cammy.
Alain "I suck at SF2 and Scott Bradburn will attest to this" Hoang
hoa...@rpi.edu
"Begone fool!" -Gouki Rong
road...@delphi.com
>is making. You _obviously_ aren't very good at the game, but you're
Again, useless flaming. And just how are *you* qualified to say I am not
qualified? Have you seen me play? Have you played me? No.. So how can a few
comments I made about stuff that I *can* get past, convince you so much that I
just have to suck? Is it just as easy to convince you of other things? If I
made a card appear in my right hand, would you say I had magical powers? I was
mostly talking about MK][ when I wrote about cheese. And I stated many times I
liked SF][ because it wasn't really possible to do the kind of defensive crap
you can do in MK][. And yet, people are flaming my whole set of opinions about
one game, because they think I must suck at another. Does this seem logical?
I relize that you have to make a judgement on a person more by what they say,
since you can't go and play
them, but this is really sad.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>
>>[cheese stuff and enormous sig deleted]
>
>Well, that kinda upsets me man, because this was my whole point in starting
>this thread, was to talk about *my* definition of cheese. And yes I have a
>huge .SIG, that's just the kind of depraved scum I am :)
>
>>If it's 1, then you're just bad. If it's 2, and you COULDN'T RECOGNIZE
>>that you were on a hacked machine, then your knowledge of the game
>>is pitiful indeed.
>
>Well, if it is one, and I *must* be bad as a result, then 99% of the people I
>play must be horrible.
Hey, it's possible.
>And if it's two, I wouldn't be so sure about that. The
>only times I played that machine, that guy that could do the JDP was there. It
>was at a movie theater, and he worked there. So, every time I showed up, he
>would practically vault from behind the counter, proclaim himself to be the
>SF][ champ, and kick my ass. The way I could beat him was to also pick Ken,
>do a Strong DP when he came in for the JDP, so as to get behind him. Then I
>could fireball him, and keep doing this. Hacked or not, I really don't care,
>it has nothing to do with my original posts. I want to talk about Cheese. You
>must have read my posts, what do you think of my opinions? Do you think a big
>sweep war/roundhouse contest is fun? Especially when it expires the time
>every single time, and both guys have most of their life?
Ok...you want to talk about cheese,
YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT CHEESE! This is the point that everyone
is making. You _obviously_ aren't very good at the game, but you're
proclaiming these 'flaws' like you were on the design teem. Nearly
_everything_ you've listed as 'cheese' in SF2 is easily countered.
If someone tried this stuff against any one of the 5 people who are flaming
you, odds are they'd get whipped pretty quick.
No, this doesn't mean that only 'masters' of the game are fit to
comment on it. However, you've demonstrated that you lack _basic_
knowledge of the game. It's like me popping into one of the legal groups
and proclaiming the U.S. Judicial System to be corrupt and malicious.
Whehter it is or not, I'm unqualified to make an intelligent comment,
so I'll happily keep my mouth shut when it comes to legal technicalities.
Several people (including myself) have written PARAGRAPHS about how
'cheese' can add a random factor to the game, making it more enjoyable.
If you don't agree, fine -- go play pinball. However, defending your
position when it's clear that people don't respect it or your knowledge
of the game is silly. Do you _like_ getting flamed.
Quit while you're behind. You're rapidly catching up to Opus for the
braindead-user of the year award.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Tellure
Organization: University of British Columbia
Distribution:
: Anyone ever see a hack called "Grand Dragon"? Apparently, you do a DP,
: and 30 homing fireballs come out at all levels...
Nope, never heard that one. Where did you hear it? There were always
_SO_ many rumours flying around about special or hidden stuff in whatever
version of SF2 but almost all of it was hooey. I must admit though, I
did enjoy playing some of the hacked games, where you could throw an
ULTRA-slow fireball which would arc up and down - then, timing it right,
you could do a jump and come down on your opponent just has he was
blocking low to block the fireball and you'd do a fierce hit from above,
then a two-hit DP all in mid-air. Ending up with a quadruple combo that
would drain 1/2 energy :). Of course, any decent player can block against
it with good blocking, but it was still fun to do on the elementry school
kids >:).
-Aaron
that stupid club
>Man, I never thought there were many just plain nasty people on the net.
I've always found people on the net to be pretty normal. I don't know
about other people, but I only get nasty to people who prove themselves
to be dorks.
>debate via E-Mail. In closing I'd like to ask why so many people see one of my
>posts, maybe two pages, and pick out the one line that they think means I suck
>at the game, and reply to that. Agree or disagree, don't you flamers have
>anything else to say but I suck? How about my opinions on the game?
Your opinions about the game have no merit if you complain of the easiest
strategies as your example of 'cheese'. The reason no one wants to discuss
the game with you is because you have yet to prove you know more that a
scrub's worth of knowledge about it.
So basically, if you suck, which you do, then you can't really talk about
higher strategies when you complain of the simple ones of being 'cheese'.
>If you
>disagree, why? It's kinda useless for 20 guys to keep saying I suck real bad,
>and never even reply to the meat of my messages.
The point is that you don't have any substance to your posts. When you
list concrete examples of what you consider cheese, it just shows your
inexperience of the game. If you had played the game more often, then
these issues about 'cheese' would be clear to you without asking or
discussing on the net. Basically, the issue you're bringing up is four
years old and the answer has already been well-debated and well-established
by people much more knowledgeable about the game than yourself. Your
points are superficial and insignificant, and that's why no one has the
patience to discuss it with you. When you keep insisting that you have
something relevant to say, when you actually don't, you further infuriate
the net.community with your complete ignorance.
Usually, I just flame clueless bozers like you. I'm feeling generous
today, so I'm explaining to you why everyone thinks you're a total
bonehead. You may not be a bonehead, but your insistence on discussing
'the topic of cheese' while trying to dodge accusations of your total
incompetence reeks of a transparent attempt to avoid admitting that
you had posted an obviously ill-informed post in the first place.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"Someday you will ache like I ache." -Hole
He who has the most # of extra lives when he dies, wins.
that stupid club
Roadblock, you ignorant fool! Just admit you don't know shit about SF2
and stop discussing some theoretical 'cheese' that you know nothing about.
MK2 and SF2 have very different gameplays, and it's no good to say what's
cheesy in one crops up in the other.
Why don't you just stick to what you know, and just say that MK2 is
cheesy. Of course, then no one would be arguing with you because they'd
all agree.
road...@delphi.com
> This is called a fireball trap. Lemme spell this out for you.
>F-I-R-E-B-A-L-L T-R-A-P. You look carefully? Okay we see two words.
suck, over a text-only Usenet group. Let me spell that for you T-E-X-T
O-N-L-Y. This means that *gasp* you guys can't play me over this group! It
also means therefore that you have *no* idea if I am good or not. If you
think you're godly enough to decide that I am no good without playing me or
seeing me play, based on just what I type on here, well, go on and feel that
way. I wanted to talk about cheese, but you flamers are apparently incapable of
discussing the subject without bringing up how much the person must suck. So,
I will continue to reply to what is posted, but I refuse to offer any more
material on what I think of the game. I have better things to do with my time
than to say something, only to have it picked apart, taken out of context, and
flamed. Not that I mind being flamed, I really couldn't care less, but it has
ceased to be productive or interesting. ROADBLOCK wants to talk about cheese,
so let's flame him into oblivion. Not that original guys, nor very interesting.
If anyone who is capable of talking about the subject without constantly saying
I must suck for one reason or another, I'll be happy to conduct a discussion or
debate via E-Mail. In closing I'd like to ask why so many people see one of my
posts, maybe two pages, and pick out the one line that they think means I suck
at the game, and reply to that. Agree or disagree, don't you flamers have
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>
>>YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT CHEESE! This is the point that everyone
>>is making. You _obviously_ aren't very good at the game, but you're
>
>Again, useless flaming. And just how are *you* qualified to say I am not
>qualified? Have you seen me play? Have you played me? No.. So how can a few
>comments I made about stuff that I *can* get past, convince you so much that I
>just have to suck?
You're not listening very well. By your previous posts, we can all see that
either you can't identify a hacked machine, or you can't get past a basic
trick. Neither scenario gives you much SF2 clout.
Look at it this way: You've shown us NOTHING to suggest that you know
anything about SF2, but have shown plenty to support the opposite.
>Is it just as easy to convince you of other things? If I
>made a card appear in my right hand, would you say I had magical powers? I was
>mostly talking about MK][ when I wrote about cheese. And I stated many times I
>liked SF][ because it wasn't really possible to do the kind of defensive crap
>you can do in MK][. And yet, people are flaming my whole set of opinions about
>one game, because they think I must suck at another. Does this seem logical?
Pardon me, but you said that you've dropped SF2 and moved on to pinball
because of the cheesiness of the game. In just your last post you
asked if I liked the 'roundhouse sweep, FB cheesiness' (paraphrase) of
SF2. Now you're saying that you _like_ the game? Seems like a pretty
quick reversal to me.
Also, no one's flaming you about MK2, so we are taking all your SF2 ignorance
in its proper context.
>I relize that you have to make a judgement on a person more by what they say,
>since you can't go and play
>them, but this is really sad.
Why is this sad? You've made an assertion that you can't possibly
back up. You've said that there are lots of patterns in SF2 that
turn the game into a robotic cheese-fest. We're countering your
assertions, using your own mis-information and ignorance about the
game. The only thing left for you to do is 1) get a clue and make
some valid (and correct) points about the game, 2) realize that you
are just digging youself deeper with your current tactics and give up, or
3) keep plodding away and look even sillier.
Hey! I just noticed something. You use an alias. You should be
proud -- you're rapidly joining a tradition of aliased posters who have
completely humiliated themselves on Usenet. X-man, MMSF, Opus, and
now Roadblock.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
that stupid club
>Hey! I just noticed something. You use an alias. You should be
>proud -- you're rapidly joining a tradition of aliased posters who have
>completely humiliated themselves on Usenet. X-man, MMSF, Opus, and
>now Roadblock.
Heh. I always forget about that odd phenomenon. The only scientific
explanation I can offer is this:
4 pseudonyms, 1 brain.
Interpret as you will!
that stupid club
>I posted about one game that I haven't played in over a year. Why are assuming
>I'm talking about SF][ anyway? I'm attempting to talk about MK][, and how the
>net feels about cheesing.
I guess the SF2 examples and references made me assume that you were talking
about SF2. Go figure.
>Ok, to avoid further crap and useless flaming : Yes
>Ming the great one. I know nothing about SF][. I am so low that I cannot even
>block a jab Dragon Punch. You could beat double perfect with no joystick and
>the buttons broken. I humbly ask every net.person's forgivness, and I will
>never-ever post anything about SF][ here ever again.
Wow. Did you like buy a clue on sale last weekend?
>Can we talk about MK][
>now, or does my *obvious* lack of knowledge about SF][ invalidate me at other
>video games as well?
No. No one talks about MK2 because we all know it's cheesy. That's why
you didn't get flamed for calling it cheesy. Go ahead and talk all you
want about MK2. People won't respond because there's not much debate.
road...@delphi.com
>and stop discussing some theoretical 'cheese' that you know nothing about.
trying) to talk about cheese in MK][. I posted *one* thing about 2 lines on
SF][, and every net.flamer on this group jumps on it. Maybe I don't know shit
about SF][, that's not what I've been talking about! My original message about
this was totally about MK][. I was attempting to talk about MK][ in the hopes
to get others feelings on it, and see what the general opinions out there are.
I expected to flamed by some, but not for 2 lines
I posted about one game that I haven't played in over a year. Why are assuming
I'm talking about SF][ anyway? I'm attempting to talk about MK][, and how the
Ming the great one. I know nothing about SF][. I am so low that I cannot even
block a jab Dragon Punch. You could beat double perfect with no joystick and
the buttons broken. I humbly ask every net.person's forgivness, and I will
road...@delphi.com
>Look at it this way: You've shown us NOTHING to suggest that you know
>anything about SF2, but have shown plenty to support the opposite.
>Pardon me, but you said that you've dropped SF2 and moved on to pinball
>because of the cheesiness of the game. In just your last post you
>asked if I liked the 'roundhouse sweep, FB cheesiness' (paraphrase) of
>SF2. Now you're saying that you _like_ the game? Seems like a pretty
>quick reversal to me.
to get past. And yes,I have quit playing SF][ and MK][ because all the people
in area do is cheese. Either that or they *really* suck rocks, and I get a
double flawless every time.
>Why is this sad? You've made an assertion that you can't possibly
>back up. You've said that there are lots of patterns in SF2 that
>turn the game into a robotic cheese-fest. We're countering your
>assertions, using your own mis-information and ignorance about the
>game. The only thing left for you to do is 1) get a clue and make
have convinced me it was either a hacked machine, or my having a mental block
against it. Either way, I was speaking exclusivly about MK][, and said the
thing about SF][ in passing. I posted many messages about MK][ and 2 lines
about SF][. And I get flamed hard for the two lines, and no one even *mentions*
my other posts. I can handle getting flamed,but not when people take what I say
about one game, and apply it to another. I have never said anything about SF][
being cheesy, other than the JDP (which I think has been covered enough, don't
you?). I have said at least 3 times now that I like SF][ because it's not
possible to be cheesy with it, at least not to the degree that it's only couter
able with more cheese.So, if you guys want to continue to flame me for being
clueless in SF][ that's fine, just don't take what I say about MK][ and apply
it to SF][.
>Hey! I just noticed something. You use an alias. You should be
>proud -- you're rapidly joining a tradition of aliased posters who have
>completely humiliated themselves on Usenet. X-man, MMSF, Opus, and
>now Roadblock.
>
name part of my Inet address, but Delphi either won't put the person's real
name of there, or I just haven't figured it out. My real name is Burt Ward. Yes
the same as the guy that played Robin in the old Batman TV show.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>that stupid club <mi...@flowbee.interaccess.com> writes:
>
>>Roadblock, you ignorant fool! Just admit you don't know shit about SF2
>>and stop discussing some theoretical 'cheese' that you know nothing about.
>
>Ming, hello. I have not been talking about cheese in SF][. I have been (or
>trying) to talk about cheese in MK][. I posted *one* thing about 2 lines on
>SF][, and every net.flamer on this group jumps on it.
Roadblock, now you're lying.....
Let's review the thread. Here are two _direct_ quotes from you on
SF2.
'I'm talking about the standard Ken cheese the
computer uses, that of throwing fireballs, and DPing anyone that jumps in. YES
I can beat these guys,I just don't like to, because I have to out-cheese them.'
'Do you think a big
sweep war/roundhouse contest is fun? Especially when it expires the time
every single time, and both guys have most of their life?'
I think it's pretty clear to everyone that, at this point, you're just trying
to cover your ass. You made some unfounded statements and got flamed.
Admit you were hasty in your decision, and we'll all go away. Floundering
around like this isn't going to help you at all.
>Maybe I don't know shit
>about SF][, that's not what I've been talking about! My original message about
>this was totally about MK][. I was attempting to talk about MK][ in the hopes
>to get others feelings on it, and see what the general opinions out there are.
>I expected to flamed by some, but not for 2 lines
Well, regardles of your original post, you've now started talking about
SF2. If you were originally talking only about MK, why did you try
to defend the above quotes?
[Ming worship deleted]
>Can we talk about MK][
>now, or does my *obvious* lack of knowledge about SF][ invalidate me at other
>video games as well?
No, but there's already been a kind of consensus on MK2...here it is.
'MK2 is an ok game with flawed gameplay that allows a single 'best'
strategy. Because this strategy is defensive and requires 2 braincells
to do, MK2 loses a lot of appeal once you learn the strategy. MK1 was
probably a better game.'
Ta da. This pretty much encapsulates the average net.guy, throwing out
all the MK2 fanatics and bashers.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
road...@delphi.com
>computer uses, that of throwing fireballs, and DPing anyone that jumps in. YES
>I can beat these guys,I just don't like to, because I have to out-cheese them.'
think that's been beaten to death), and I was referring to it because I was
pointing out that SF][ had just the one, unlike the MK][ crap.
>'Do you think a big
>sweep war/roundhouse contest is fun? Especially when it expires the time
>every single time, and both guys have most of their life?'
I have been talking about it the whole time, which is why it puzzled me that
everyone was flaming me for stuff that I "said" about SF][.
>'MK2 is an ok game with flawed gameplay that allows a single 'best'
>strategy. Because this strategy is defensive and requires 2 braincells
>to do, MK2 loses a lot of appeal once you learn the strategy. MK1 was
>probably a better game.'
have about this is : Does this include *all* the patterns that are defensive?
I.E. Is this only for those that sweep-war/roundhouse or does this include,
sayLiu Kang's HIgh Punch/Turkey Kick combo? What I r(Damn Delphi!)
What I am trying to find out is if the average net.guy regaurds just certain
moves, or a whole defensive strategy to be cheesy. That moron who is writing
abot throws obviously feels that certain moves have inherant cheese. Also,
are there more of this type? I want to know too if the average net.guy will
still play MK][ despite the cheese, and if so, why? And how about VF? Is it
considered cheesy yet, or is it only defensive cheese that counts? I am *NOT*,
never have been, talking about SF][, except in passing. Has the above stuff
bbeaten to death, and if so, when did it get disscussed? (AARRGHH!)
ROAD...@Delphi.Com
road...@delphi.com
>you didn't get flamed for calling it cheesy. Go ahead and talk all you
>want about MK2. People won't respond because there's not much debate.
other stuff started, and it was a current thread I was replying to.