Tourney Report: NYC Pro Tour Qualifier
Robert S. Hahn
Okay, so it's five in the morning and I'm up because... well, I'm
alternatively tired beyond belief and filled with adrenalin. It's a weird
state of existence. I just thought I would post a little report on my
experience earlier tonight (actually, last night by now) as it was my first
time winning a large (250+) tournament. This may get long, so bear with
me, or skip on to the next thread.
--
First of all, we have to backtrack to two weeks before the tournament when
I was practicing and practicing with the Necromnipotence deck. It's a
pretty standard version of Necro, so there isn't much to say about that.
Then, at a weekly tournament at Neutral Ground (a gaming place in NYC) I
got killed so badly by a R/G deck featuring 4 Dervishes standard that I
began to wonder about its effectiveness.
So then, I watch the games and watch the games all around me for two weeks
and decide that in fact there will be two types of decks at the qualifier:
Necro and anti-Necro G/W or R/G. With one day to go, I decide that I would
bet on the anti-Necro forces winning out and play an anti-anti-Necro deck.
It's the whole rock-paper-scissors thing again. Therefore, I pull out my
old trusty U/W control deck, sub out Angels for Triskelions, put in more
Arrows standard, etc. etc.
With one night to go, my friend Josh comes down from New Haven to play in
the qualifier. He has the idea of playing a R/W/g Justice-style deck in
the tournament, which features tons of creature removal & direct damage,
with Stormbind, 4 Howling Mines, Winter Orbs, 4 Icy's, etc. So I lend him
my Ice Age duals, etc. etc. and we start playtesting. Unfortunately, he
can't seem to buy a win with the deck; it just won't work for him. So
around midnight, he tells me that he's going to play G/W Willowgeddon
because it's strong and he's comfortable with that style.
In the meantime, I'm trying to play this U/W "Do Nothing" deck against
Necromnipotence. No chance. Not even a squeak of a chance. Dead in four
turns. Dead in seven turns. Dead in six turns. No chance at all.
So... I decided to take the cards that Josh was no longer using and build a
deck which might lose to others but will not lose to Necro. That was my
one and only goal: do not lose to Necro. It was about three in the morning
by now, and the tournament begins at noon. I didn't yet have a sideboard,
and I hadn't really playtested, but I knew that I wanted to kill everything
that Necro puts out, then burn it, then lock it down hard. I put in other
cards to neutralize the effects of the Howling Mine for them: namely,
Winter Orb. I had no idea how powerful and effective that combo really is:
Justice had the correct idea.
The deck ended up being four colors: R/W/g/u and 64 cards. The contents
of the deck were:
4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Karplusan Forests
2 Brushlands
1 Forest
1 Ruins of Trokair
5 Mountains
3 Plains
3 Land Tax
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Fellwar Stone
4 Howling Mines
3 Winter Orbs
4 Icy Manipulators
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fireball
1 Earthquake
4 Disenchant
2 Shatter
2 Wrath of God
3 Stormbind
1 Ivory Tower
1 Black Vise
1 Recall
1 Zuran Orb
1 Balance
1 Feldon's Cane
2 Deflection
64 in the main deck. Sideboard was 4 Serrated Arrows, 1 An-Zerrin Ruins (I
couldn't find another Homeland card in 5 minutes I had), 2 Tormod's Crypt,
2 Stormseekers, 2 Library of Leng, 1 Aeolipile, and 3 Orggs.
The tough decisions were whether to include Kismet in the main deck or not,
whether to put Library of Leng in the main deck for the Stormbind/Library
trick, etc. But ultimately, the above was the lineup.
Having played one quick tune-up game, I go to sleep at six in the morning
and argue in my dream about putting in Kismet or not, etc. :)
--
First Round:
Unfortunately, I was paired up against a wee-lad of about seven who showed
up with his sideboard face-up. As I'm forced to look upon his Mammoth
Harness and Shrink, he tells me that he didn't have any other Homelands
cards. It's a R/B/U with storage lands from FE for big fireballs. I
locked him down pretty quickly with the Icy/Winter Orb combo and locked him
down for good when I got three Icy's out. Second game was more of the
same, and the third game, I put down a third turn Stormbind and started
binding him for 4 per turn.
So much for the early stuff. I move on 1-0 (9 pts).
Second Round:
This was one of my toughest matches, as well as the stupidest error I made
during the whole day. My opponent was Pat Fleischman, whose brother Sean
was a Top 16 qualifier in Pro Tour 1 -- I first learned about G/W's power
from Sean's deck. Well, Pat was playing Sean's deck -- all the familiar
sights: Blinking Spirit, Erhnam Djinn, Autumn Willow, Elves, etc. etc. No
Armageddon, however, which may have hurt him.
First game went back and forth, back and forth. He put out an Elf, I bolt
it. He puts out a Dervish and whacks me a couple of times before putting
out an Archer. I fireball them. He puts out an Erhnam and a Blinkie; I
keep the Erhnam occupied for a while with an Icy while setting things up.
Eventually, though, I got the lock down, the whole time holding off his
evil forces. He finally puts out Autumn, tapping out to do so. Seizing
the opportunity, I put down the Winter Orb, then I Wrath all his creatures
away. Since I had two Icy's, I start tapping what he untaps, and the land
he puts into play. In the meantime, we're both drawing four cards per turn
from multiple Howling Mines, and I have him under a Vise. So I start
hitting him with Mishras and bolting him. I finished off with a large
fireball, ending control with cheeze.
Second game, he gets out a creature rush and pounds me with Erhnams and I
die quickly, wishing I had Swords to Plowshares.
The third game is where I made the mistake. He quickly overwhelmed me
once again with a creature horde and I'm suddenly fighting for my life.
With about six life to go, I get the Ivory Tower, which he subsequently
disenchants when his mana untaps. By this time, I've Wrathed away a whole
bunch of Erhnams, I have Icy's which make his Blinking Spirits useless, and
we don't have much time to play. He then puts out his other Autumn Willow.
Argh! I have nothing to hurt her with. Then I draw the Orgg and play it.
We're both at 10 life but he can't attack me because the Orgg would be able
to attack; since I have the direct damage, he doesn't want to do that.
Then, I draw Earthquake. This is where I made the mistake. For some
reason, I saw "Earthquake" but thought "Fireball" -- if I had quaked for 4,
killing the Willow, I could have attacked with the Orgg and finished him
up. Instead, it's Disrupting Sceptred out of my hand. Ouch. So that ends
in a draw, and neither of us gets any points or anything, which upsets me
because I would have been glad to flip a coin to see who should concede to
the other one. Anyway, I move on to the loser's bracket with a 1-0(12)
record.
The Third Round: I played against another guy who I knew: Mark Lim from
Columbia who was playing... yes, you guessed it, G/W Willowgeddon. I was
expecting Necrodecks out of my neck, but I play against nothing but G/W....
Anyhow, typical of my games against G/W, I quickly go down to 6 life from a
barrage of Lions, Orders, Mishras, Elves, etc. I bolt as many as I can to
keep from dying in four turns, but they just keep coming. Finally, he
plays a Serra to go with his Erhnam which I had been keeping busy with an
Icy. I drop the Winter Orb, then Wrath (sound familiar). From there, I
rebuild, using the 3 Howling Mines I had in play to go up to 2 Icy
Manipulators -- mana-lock. I get the Ivory Tower, and play it. He untaps
a Ruins, and when I try to tap it, sacs it for WW and Disenchants my Ivory
Tower. Or, he would have had I not been holding a Deflection for the
better part of the game, and I kill his Zuran Orb instead. I put him under
the Vise, then start gnawing away at his life and finally kill him with
Stormbind. The second game was more of the same. I was down to 1 life for
about 11 turns, eating land to stay alive. He finally makes the big move,
and I Balance, eating all my lands. I had the Land Tax in play so I
figured I was okay. I also had a number of Fellwar Stones, which was
comforting. Soon thereafter, I drop the Mines, I drop the Icys, etc. etc.
and he conceded when I killed his Icy. He was also extremely generous in
conceding the third game as well -- or perhaps my deck is just extremely
annoying to play against. :)
In any case, I move on, with a 2-0 match record (21 points).
Fourth Round, I faced a U/W deck who seemed to be having extreme trouble
drawing the cards he needed. It was a fairly standard Serra/Sceptre/Book
deck but two early Icy Manipulators and 2 Howling Mines eventually led to a
mana lockdown. The second game was even more brutal as I put down a fairly
early Stormbind, then three Howling Mines in play. After he drew four
cards, I Stormseekered him down to 9 life, then bolted and Stormbound him
to death. It was almost too easy, and I felt like he must have drawn
nothing but useless stuff while my draws were beyond belief.
I move on, now 3-0 with 30 points. I need to win the next match, or I
don't make it into the single-elimination rounds. But if I win, then I'm
guaranteed a spot in the playoffs since I'll have 36 points with 4 match
wins.
Nervous tension sets in big-time. I have an idea of what it felt like to
be playing in Pro Tour 1 -- though on a much smaller scale.
Fifth Round... the nailbiter. This was the closest match by far of the
ones I played. My opponent was Justin Schneider who had placed in the
Juniors at Pro Tour 1. He was playing a R/W deck with a lot of small
dangerous creatures and direct damage. As was typical for the tournament,
I went down below 10 life quickly from Lions and Mishras, but then the
machinery kicked in: Mines, Winter Orb, Stormbind, Icys, etc. Justin saw
the writing on the wall when I disenchanted his Zuran Orb and conceded.
The second game was just as uneven for him: a seemingly endless supply of
Mishras, Lions, Orders, and Disenchants for anything of mine that could
interrupt the defense, just pounded me into the ground. So there we were,
tied at one a piece. The next game would decide whether I move on or I go
home.
The third game, however, was a classic. I couldn't get the
machinery working fast enough, and I took some early hits from Mishras and
Orders before stopping them with Bolts. We went back and forth for a
while, with him playing two Felwars to get out from the Winter Orb fairly
easily. My mistake was in not killing the Felwars earlier. Nonetheless, he
eventually put out an Angel and a Shivan after killing my one Icy. I
needed a Balance or a Wrath, and I had only one card in hand which was
neither. He said, "You need a Wrath." I said, "Yup." With no Howling
Mines in play, I drew... the Wrath. With the game reset, we kept going for
a while drawing four cards per turn. I got my machinery set up again and
started to get my game in gear. But he was at over 40 life at this point;
I had to win by running him out of cards, since another Howling Mine (4
total) meant both of us were drawing 5 cards per turn. With but a few
cards left in the library, he made his move. He sacrificed a Ruins of
Trokair for a Millstone, then milled me with the Felwars. Two cards went
down -- if one was a Feldon's Cane, I would have lost. It was not.
So it's my turn, and there are just a few cards left. I have to draw five.
I draw -- land. I draw -- Land Tax. I draw -- land. I DRAW, picking at
the edges of my card, hoping it's not the last card -- a Bolt.
The last card, and the fifth I had to draw: Feldon's Cane. I play it
immediately, and that pretty much sealed it. Justin played for a couple
more turns -- he was under the Vise and looking at a Stormbind as well --
before conceding. If my deck had been any smaller or any larger, I would
have lost because of the Howling Mines.
Justin could not believe what had happened. He went over the scenario
against and again -- if he had played the Winter Orb just one round
earlier, he would have won. If I had Land Taxed one fewer times, he would
have won, etc. etc. And I immediately resolved to put in more Feldon's
Canes....
But I was in the playoffs.
Playoffs:
Sixteen players made the playoffs, which were single-elimination 2 out of 3
games with no time limits -- which makes me happy since I came close to
having matches called on time during the Swiss rounds. Among them were
four players who had already qualified at NY Pro Tour, including Aaron
Kline who came in second in the Juniors. Some were playing for airfare,
others were playing for a slot in the Seniors at Long Beach, other were
just playing.
In any case, I got matched up in the first round with my first Necrodeck.
A quiet, serious player by the name of Paul Chang who had gone 5-0 in the
Swiss rounds. A real nice guy with a very solid deck, but of course, my
deck was geared to kill Necro.
Nonetheless, he got me down to 8 life or so with Orders and Mishras and
Bolts before I locked him down with the Winter Orb. The Howling Mines now
going in full effect, he never dropped the Necropotence. A Vampire was
threatening, but I kept it busy with the Icy until he dropped another
creature, at which point God Frowned (Wrath). He put out two Disks to have
them Shattered or Disenchanted, since I was holding all of them for the
Disks. I finally got him under the Vise while drawing three cards per
turn, then started bolting him, keeping him solidly locked down with the
Winter Orb. Ultimately, the Stormbind and continuous Mishra assaults
proved too much in the first game.
Second game went poorly for him. He was playing R/B Necro and drew no
black lands for the first six or seven turns. I played two Howling Mines
thinking he would eventually draw the Swamp -- I didn't really want to win
that way if I could help it -- but I had too much of an advantage by then:
Library of Leng, Stormbind, 2 Fellwar Stones, Icy , Winter Orb, etc. I'm
not proud of that win, especially since I sealed his fate with a 10-point
Stormseeker, dropping him to 9 life with the Stormbind in play and 12 cards
in hand (Leng). However, Paul was extremely gracious and I appreciated the
high level of sportsmanship.
I move on to the next round; one more. ONE more match, and I go to
California....
FINALS: I was matched up against another tournament champion who was
playing a Serrageddon deck. Again, Lions, Orders, etc. would come out,
then he woudl Armageddon for the lock. He had already qualified, with air
fare, so I didn't really understand why he was playing -- but such is not
mine to question. It is merely mine to try my best.
The first game took a long time as we were both considering every move. He
was a very deliberate player and brought out the most deliberate style in
me as well -- nothing was overlooked. I began to assemble my machinery
when he tried to Divine Offering my Winter Orb; I deflected it to his
Felwar Stone which... to say the least, surprised him. Eventually, he put
out two Angels and Armageddoned; fortunately, I had the Zuran Orb in play
so I went up to 30+ life. Drawing three cards per turn, I found my Ivory
Tower and played it, along with a land to use my Icy on one of the Angels.
Again, after numerous back and forth with Disechants and such, I finally
drew a Wrath and played it. The Winter Orb/Icy combo was now safe, and I
eventually got him in a mana-lock. He realized that I would never give him
enough mana to cast a Disenchant, so conceded.
Second game... another nailbiter. Again, a horde of weenies dragged me
down to 2 life in a hurry before I played the Icy Manipulator and the
Winter Orb. As expected, the Serra made her appearance, then
Armageddon followed. I drew the land I needed and played it, knowing I
could hold Serra off for a while, but not he mishra. THEN he forgot to
untap his Mishra, untapping a white mana instead. With the Mishra, he
could have done enough damage for me to lose another land, dropping below
the 4 mana needed for most of my stuff. Because he didn't, I survived until
I pulled a Wrath or a Balance and got out for a while. At this point, he
was put under the Winter Orb and I started controlling the game. A Lion
got bolted, and I tapped the land he untapped. Eventually, the machine
kicked into gear and he conceded under the Vise. It was as close you can
get in terms of life, since all he needed was 2 point of damage....
And I was IN! California, Long Beach -- the slot and airfare are mine. I
finished in the top 4 of the field with this weird 4-color monstrosity
which might have been the one non-Necro deck qualifying. I know I faced
Erhnams and Willow with equal fortitude, and Necro was not effective
against so much removal (supported by the Library of Leng) and direct
damage. I feel like I've been drained of all vitality and that sleep is
impossible as much as it is necessary. I'm a Magic zombie. :)
In any case, if you've read this far, I guess I need to decide whether I'm
going to Long Beach -- and I DEFINITELY need to practice booster draft if
in fact I am heading that way.
--
Anyhow, that was my trip through the maze. It was fun, though tense, and I
can honestly say that there is a viable deck type besides Necromnipotence
and Willowgeddon Djinns 'R' Us decks. And now, I'm off to bed.
May your mana be plentiful and right!
-The Sophist
--
Robert S. Hahn rsh...@is.nyu.edu
NYU Law School, '97 http://pages.nyu.edu/~rsh9395/index.html
"They have no lawyers among them, for they consider them as a sort of
people whose profession it is to disguise matters."
-- Sir Thomas More, Utopia
Stil
: state of existence. I just thought I would post a little report on my
: experience earlier tonight (actually, last night by now) as it was my
first
: time winning a large (250+) tournament. This may get long, so bear
with
Woo hoo! Woo hoo! congrats, Robert!
: 3 Land Tax
Were these worth it? I'm assuming that, with 9 basic land, you were able
to use them, but 3 seems excessive. How well did they work out?
: 3 Mishra's Factory
: 4 Fellwar Stone
In any mine/orb/bind deck. :)
: 4 Howling Mines
: 3 Winter Orbs
: 4 Icy Manipulators
Good balance. 3 is just right. 4, and you always end up wasting space.
2, and you never see one when you need it. The 4/4 of the others is of
course, necessary.
: 4 Lightning Bolt
: 1 Fireball
: 1 Earthquake
Ok, now I'm wondering. Why the Fireball, instead of another earthquake?
I can see not wanting another wrath, with the WW in the casting cost,
but the fireball.. It's not fast enough.
: 4 Disenchant
: 2 Shatter
Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
: 2 Wrath of God
: 3 Stormbind
I'd want 3 wraths, but your mana resources only give you 10 white, so I
can see not doing it. *WHY* no cities of brass? I would think if you
did cities over your reactive mana, then you could use a 3rd wrath.
: 1 Ivory Tower
: 1 Black Vise
: 1 Recall
: 1 Zuran Orb
: 1 Balance
: 1 Feldon's Cane
2 canes, as you have seen.
: 2 Deflection
Nice, if only to kill enemy mishras/hymns.
: 64 in the main deck. Sideboard was 4 Serrated Arrows, 1 An-Zerrin Ruins (I
: couldn't find another Homeland card in 5 minutes I had), 2 Tormod's Crypt,
: 2 Stormseekers, 2 Library of Leng, 1 Aeolipile, and 3 Orggs.
Why are the stormseekers in the sideboard? Need the defense that bad?
Your deck is defensive, but it's not *that* defensive. I'd pull a
shatter for one. Or a library, if you aren't going to play that way.
Tell me about the Orggs.
: The tough decisions were whether to include Kismet in the main deck or not,
: whether to put Library of Leng in the main deck for the Stormbind/Library
: trick, etc. But ultimately, the above was the lineup.
Kismet essentially give you another turn. With the orb, it is wicked.
But I don't think that you can afford the spot, your deck is adequate
in the 'slow down'.
As I play a deck quite similar to this, here are a few more comments:
The libraries WORK. I love the libraries. These guys bring those
stormbound cards back to your control, which does two things:
1. Prevents library death. Essentially lets you 'not draw'
2. The 'random' in stormbind is no more. :)
My version has Weirdings, but you seem to have lost a lot more life a
lot more quickly, so that may not help you out.
The big lesson I've learned from playing is that you *must* protect your
fellwar stones. If they have an icy out, and manage to get rid of your
fellwars, the lock turns on you. With no critter mana, this can get
really nasty really quickly.
I know, I know, no one ever goes after fellwar stones. But once you
start hitting a constant stream of people used to winning tournaments,
they will quickly figure out that your fellwars are what keep you going,
and they will destroy them.
Ok, I'm off my paranoid kick.
once again, congrats!
john
-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-
The contraction "You're" does not indicate possessive. It indicates a
state of being, or, more commonly, a description of the person being
addressed.
The word "Your" does indicate possesive. It does NOT indicate a state of
being, or a description.
-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-
Joshua E Randall
Come on, Rob, there were only 186 people in the main tournament. Let's
not exaggerate. ;-)
Okay, I admit it, I'm both jealous of your victory, and mad at myself
for abandoning the deck. For others reading: yes, 'tis I, the person
who was going to play this deck but couldn't buy a win, as Rob said.
Now I just have sone comments on someone else's comments:
In a previous article, jsh...@mason2.gmu.edu (Stil) wrote:
> The libraries WORK. I love the libraries. These guys bring those
> stormbound cards back to your control, which does two things:
>
> 1. Prevents library death. Essentially lets you 'not draw'
> 2. The 'random' in stormbind is no more. :)
I think at least one should go in the main deck. Leng is like the Vise
in this deck: if you don't draw it, you can still win; if you do draw
it, you can win a lot faster.
I would also try to (somehow) find room for Sylvan Library. Leng +
Sylvan is just nasty, especially against Hymns, as you can hold
important cards "on the shelves", as they say.
> The big lesson I've learned from playing is that you *must* protect your
> fellwar stones. [...]
This may be true, but what really drives this deck are the Howling
Mines. Destroy those, and you deprive the deck of its massive card-
drawing. This should give you enough time to beat it before the rest
of the machine shows up (Winter Orbs + Icys can still lock you).
> once again, congrats!
Indeed, a hearty GRATZ from yours truly.
--
--
Joshua E Randall "Do not mistake composure for ease." - Tuvok, ST: VOY
<ran...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> <http://www.yale.edu/~randall/>
Vincent Musolino
>The deck ended up being four colors: R/W/g/u and 64 cards. The contents
>of the deck were:
>
[deck deleted]
Thanks a lot, Robert. I think you gave me the answer to a question I had.
:)
I read Stil's post about the Enchantment theory, and I also heard about Mark
Justice's Orb/Icy combo. I decided at the time to merge the two.
And guess what ? I've been playing a deck similar to yours for 1 1/2 week and I
feel very good about it. It has more counter Magic, a Sylvan Library and Zur's
Weirding. I think I'll go to 62-63 cards with more land -2 Mishra's :)-, no
Weirdings and some minor adjustments.
Here it is :
Blue 6 Green 1
---- -----
1 Recall 1 Sylvan Library
1 Power Sink
1 Spell Blast
2 Mana Short
1 Recall
Artifact 18 Red/Green 3
-------- ---------
1 Ivory Tower 3 Stormbinds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Black Vise White 12
2 Library of Leng -----
4 Icy Manipulators 3 Wrath of God
4 Howling Mines 4 Disenchants
2 Fellwar Stones 3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Winter Orb 1 Balance
2 Land Tax
2 Adarkar Wastes 2 Mishra's Factories
2 Brushlands 5 Plains
1 City of Brass 4 Islands
2 Strip Mine 2 Forests
1 Karplusan Forest 22 3 Mountains
Sideboard : 2 Pyroclasms, 2 Fellwar Stones, 2 Stormseekers, 3 Energy Storms
3 Sleights of Mind, 3 Blue Elemental Blasts
[nice report deleted]
I'm opened to suggestions :)
--
--Vincent Musolino
--Physics PhD student, System Manager
I.R.R.MA phone : 0041 21 693 46 00
INR-Ecublens fax : 0041 21 693 66 55
1015 Lausanne (Switzerland) e-mail muso...@irrmasg5.epfl.ch
http://irrmawww.epfl.ch http://irrmawww.epfl.ch/vm.html
"Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms"
English Graffitis
Vincent Musolino
Alan D Kohler
>I read Stil's post about the Enchantment theory, and I also heard about
Mark
>Justice's Orb/Icy combo. I decided at the time to merge the two.
>And guess what ? I've been playing a deck similar to yours for 1 1/2 week
and I
>feel very good about it.
(Deck snipped)
>Sideboard : 2 Pyroclasms, 2 Fellwar Stones, 2 Stormseekers, 3 Energy Storms
> 3 Sleights of Mind, 3 Blue Elemental Blasts
In general, I think energy storm is a good card, does double duty against
flyers and agaisnt blasts (and saved me from both several times last
tourney). However, in a orb deck, you really cannot afford the cumulative
upkeep.
--
Alan D Kohler
hwk...@poky.srv.net
"You die, the girl dies everybody dies" heavy metal
(Also uttered by myself whenever using a nevy's disk)
Robert S. Hahn
: rsh...@is.nyu.edu (Robert S. Hahn) wrote:
: Here it is :
: Blue 6 Green 1
: ---- -----
: 1 Recall 1 Sylvan Library
: 1 Power Sink
: 1 Spell Blast
: 2 Mana Short
: 1 Recall
: Artifact 18 Red/Green 3
: -------- ---------
: 1 Ivory Tower 3 Stormbinds
: 1 Zuran Orb
: 1 Black Vise White 12
: 2 Library of Leng -----
: 4 Icy Manipulators 3 Wrath of God
: 4 Howling Mines 4 Disenchants
: 2 Fellwar Stones 3 Swords to Plowshares
: 3 Winter Orb 1 Balance
: 2 Land Tax
: 2 Adarkar Wastes 2 Mishra's Factories
: 2 Brushlands 5 Plains
: 1 City of Brass 4 Islands
: 2 Strip Mine 2 Forests
: 1 Karplusan Forest 22 3 Mountains
: Sideboard : 2 Pyroclasms, 2 Fellwar Stones, 2 Stormseekers, 3 Energy Storms
: 3 Sleights of Mind, 3 Blue Elemental Blasts
The deck looks solid, but I wonder about making it Pro-Tourney legal.
Also, relying on white to do creature control is just asking for a
Necrodeck to come and kick your butt with those protection from white
pumpknights.
At the very least, if you're going to have so much blue, include some
Control Magics standard -- or go my route and add more direct damage.
Cheers,
Lazarus
: Also, relying on white to do creature control is just asking for a
: Necrodeck to come and kick your butt with those protection from white
: pumpknights.
I dunno. Without some StPs in there, you're gonna have to be throwing
two cards to kill Erhnies and Serras...
_____
/ /*\ \
-al |---------
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+=-=-=-=-=+OOOOo-=-U-=-oOOOO-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|Al Tran |Lazarus Wombat Alpo Messiah |
+=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|e-mail |<alt...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu>|
| |<lazar...@aol.com> |
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Craig Sivils
wife would like playing (other than the orbs).
Have you considered 1-2 rainbow vales?
They would do this deck a lot of good in many ways.
1. Rainbow Felwars
2. Help win land tax war's
3. Some painless help vs mana problems, Either orb avoids drawback.
4. Your sideboard has 4 FE cards in it, could free space if needed.
Over all, I like the deck. In fact it kinda ticks me off a little
bit, this is about what I wanted to get with my tax/edge decks, only
it doesn't have a lands edge (btw, have you considered....).
Craig
(Each player has their fad cards, I'm still on a lands edge in
everything kinda mood).
Christopher H. Klaus
Matt Price
>Robert S. Hahn (rsh...@is.nyu.edu) wrote:
>: 4 Lightning Bolt
>: 1 Fireball
>: 1 Earthquake
>
>Ok, now I'm wondering. Why the Fireball, instead of another earthquake?
>I can see not wanting another wrath, with the WW in the casting cost,
>but the fireball.. It's not fast enough.
Why not use pyroclasms. They will shut down fast mana critters,
knights, and orders like you want. It really hurts necro, weenie, and
*geddon decks.
>
>: 4 Disenchant
>: 2 Shatter
>
>Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
>over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
>stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
>red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
Manna can be a problem, no white no disenchant. Maybe detonates would
work. One red to kill a zuran orb. One red and four colorless to
kill a disk and do four damaged to the necro player. :-)
>: 2 Wrath of God
>: 3 Stormbind
>
>I'd want 3 wraths, but your mana resources only give you 10 white, so I
>can see not doing it. *WHY* no cities of brass? I would think if you
>did cities over your reactive mana, then you could use a 3rd wrath.
I would play with 3 at least in the side board.
>
>Why are the stormseekers in the sideboard? Need the defense that bad?
>Your deck is defensive, but it's not *that* defensive. I'd pull a
>shatter for one. Or a library, if you aren't going to play that way.
>
Put the seekers and libraries in the deck they rock.
I am trying a variation on this deck without blue. It is working
peaty good but I might get some adarkar wastes and add blue. I would
use deflection, powersink, recall, and mana short. I think it would
help with the mana lock. Do you have any play hints. I have not
really played in type two but am a competent type one player.
Thanks.
Matt Price
Stil
: : rsh...@is.nyu.edu (Robert S. Hahn) wrote:
: : Blue 6 Green 1
: Also, relying on white to do creature control is just asking for a
: Necrodeck to come and kick your butt with those protection from white
: pumpknights.
3 Stormbind is enough to rip necro to shreds. They *must* disk to get
rid of it, and that's all they can do. Meanwhile, Vin still has 3 wraths
and 2 more 'binds. 2 Pyroclasms, if it's past the first game.
John
Stil
: jsh...@mason2.gmu.edu (Stil) wrote:
: >Robert S. Hahn (rsh...@is.nyu.edu) wrote:
: >: 4 Lightning Bolt
: >: 1 Fireball
: >: 1 Earthquake
: >
: >Ok, now I'm wondering. Why the Fireball, instead of another earthquake?
: >I can see not wanting another wrath, with the WW in the casting cost,
: >but the fireball.. It's not fast enough.
: Why not use pyroclasms. They will shut down fast mana critters,
: knights, and orders like you want. It really hurts necro, weenie, and
: *geddon decks.
The pyros only stop the little guys, while the earthquakes can stop
Willow and Erhnams. If he's up against necro, that loss of life hurts,
too, as that is x less cards to draw, should they necro.
: >: 4 Disenchant
: >: 2 Shatter
: >
: >Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
: >over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
: >stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
: >red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
: Manna can be a problem, no white no disenchant. Maybe detonates would
: work. One red to kill a zuran orb. One red and four colorless to
: kill a disk and do four damaged to the necro player. :-)
Detonates? In a winter orb deck? No way. The shatters work, even though
I think that Offerings would be better.
: >
: >Why are the stormseekers in the sideboard? Need the defense that bad?
: >Your deck is defensive, but it's not *that* defensive. I'd pull a
: >shatter for one. Or a library, if you aren't going to play that way.
: >
: Put the seekers and libraries in the deck they rock.
I'm trying to decide whether or not seekers in the deck are worthwhile.
They are great against necro, and against taxers, but not being able to
target a creature hurts.
The libraries, I love. :)
: I am trying a variation on this deck without blue. It is working
: peaty good but I might get some adarkar wastes and add blue. I would
: use deflection, powersink, recall, and mana short. I think it would
: help with the mana lock. Do you have any play hints. I have not
: really played in type two but am a competent type one player.
: Thanks.
Go for the weirding life lock.
Or maybe that's just me.
john
Robert S. Hahn
: Have you considered 1-2 rainbow vales?
No -- it's too problematic with the shifting and giving my opponent mana
sources. I don't always have Felwars in play, and I don't always have the
Orb lock down -- I'd really hate to give my opponent the last colored mana
he needed to bring out Ihsan's Shade, y'know?
: They would do this deck a lot of good in many ways.
: 1. Rainbow Felwars
My experience was that colored mana was rarely a problem with fully 2/3 (or
so) of the deck running on colorless. Also, playing 4 colors, two of wchi
are extremely popular (W & G) meant that the felwars almost always gave me
the color I needed for whatever.
Mono-black is the only opponent whose lands won't give me a color I need,
but they have a tough time with my deck.
: 2. Help win land tax war's
I actually don't care about the land tax wars. I only had 9 basic lands in
the deck, and I certainly would not mind if my opponent Land Taxes -- tax
away, I say.
: 3. Some painless help vs mana problems, Either orb avoids drawback.
: 4. Your sideboard has 4 FE cards in it, could free space if needed.
But the Orggs are da bomb. I played a game today when I got out a third
turn Orgg -- Ruins. Mountain, Felwar. Land, sac Ruins, tap out, Orgg.
The guy blanched when he saw a 6/6 trampler in play on the third turn.
Next turn, out comes the Icy -- thrown out a 3/x blocker, whatever.
: (Each player has their fad cards, I'm still on a lands edge in
: everything kinda mood).
The problem with Land's Edge is that it requires RR (which isn't a huge
problem, but I want to avoid that if possible) and that it gives my
opponent the opportunity to throw some of their lands at me. No good on
that score.
-rsh
Craig Sivils
telling me that it needed millstones (she does love her millstone in
type 2). Didn't have mana trouble with the deck since most of the
mana you actually need is colorless. This even works out well with
the pain lands.
Will let you know if my wife has any comments after playing it couple
days (she'll probabbly face a necro-deck most of the time).
Craig
Daniel Brickwell
>
>Robert S. Hahn (rsh...@is.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
>
Yes. Congratulations!
>
>: 3 Land Tax
>
>Were these worth it? I'm assuming that, with 9 basic land, you were able
>to use them, but 3 seems excessive. How well did they work out?
I don't think they are as necesary with 4 Howling Mines in the deck,
but probably nice against necro decks or decks with a lot of artifact
removal for the mines. They fit the theme well though.
>
>: 4 Lightning Bolt
>: 1 Fireball
>: 1 Earthquake
>
>Ok, now I'm wondering. Why the Fireball, instead of another earthquake?
>I can see not wanting another wrath, with the WW in the casting cost,
>but the fireball.. It's not fast enough.
But it does not hurt yourself. You saw how often Robert was stripped of
life early on, drawing an earthquake instead of a Fireball can be
very aggravating when you are at one or two life or even four.
>
>: 4 Disenchant
>: 2 Shatter
>
>Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
>over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
>stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
>red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
As it was supposed to be an anti-necro deck, I do think he chose shatter
over divine offering because of gloom and rightly so in my humble opinion.
>
>: 2 Deflection
>
Instead of Ravis Living Artifacts ehh? ;-)
>once again, congrats!
>
>john
>
>
>
>
>-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-
>The contraction "You're" does not indicate possessive. It indicates a
>state of being, or, more commonly, a description of the person being
>addressed.
>The word "Your" does indicate possesive. It does NOT indicate a state of
>being, or a description.
>-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-
>
Friendly Greetings,
Daniel
Robert S. Hahn
: >Robert S. Hahn (rsh...@is.nyu.edu) wrote:
: >: 4 Lightning Bolt
: >: 1 Fireball
: >: 1 Earthquake
: >
: >Ok, now I'm wondering. Why the Fireball, instead of another earthquake?
: >I can see not wanting another wrath, with the WW in the casting cost,
: >but the fireball.. It's not fast enough.
: Why not use pyroclasms. They will shut down fast mana critters,
: knights, and orders like you want. It really hurts necro, weenie, and
: *geddon decks.
Pyroclasm isn't bad -- but I also wanted a way to hurt my opponent, in case
i'm playing some creatureless monstrosity (say U/W). Also, pyroclasm
really can't deal with an Angel or Autumn Willow. I would almost prefer
Dwarven Catapult in this deck because of the cautiousness of most
tournament players in spacing out their creatures. Consider, would YOU
play all the creatures in hand knowing that I play with Wraths of God, just
so that you could stop my Dwarven Catapult?
: >: 4 Disenchant
: >: 2 Shatter
: >
: >Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
: >over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
: >stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
: >red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
: Manna can be a problem, no white no disenchant. Maybe detonates would
: work. One red to kill a zuran orb. One red and four colorless to
: kill a disk and do four damaged to the necro player. :-)
Nope -- the real reason for the Shatters (I thought I explained this
somewhere else) was Gloom. I need to kill the Disk, even under Gloom.
Hence, the Shatter and not Divine Offering (which is in the sideboard for
G/W and U/W).
: >: 2 Wrath of God
: >: 3 Stormbind
: >
: >I'd want 3 wraths, but your mana resources only give you 10 white, so I
: >can see not doing it. *WHY* no cities of brass? I would think if you
: >did cities over your reactive mana, then you could use a 3rd wrath.
: I would play with 3 at least in the side board.
The City of Brass is a no-no in my deck. The third wrath is really
something I want to do, but I can't seem to find the space for it. Maybe I
will pull an Earthquake or something and try to get in in there.
: >Why are the stormseekers in the sideboard? Need the defense that bad?
: >Your deck is defensive, but it's not *that* defensive. I'd pull a
: >shatter for one. Or a library, if you aren't going to play that way.
: >
: Put the seekers and libraries in the deck they rock.
: I am trying a variation on this deck without blue. It is working
: peaty good but I might get some adarkar wastes and add blue. I would
: use deflection, powersink, recall, and mana short. I think it would
: help with the mana lock. Do you have any play hints. I have not
: really played in type two but am a competent type one player.
I'm trying to figure out how the deck really works as well -- I think I got
lucky. :) It's necessary in most cases to play defense and to play your
game, not worrying about what they're doing. Let them Tax, let them play
creatures, etc. As long as they're not messing with your game (trying to
disenchant your Icy, for example), don't worry about it. Kill the little
guys when things get bad, but generally hold bolts (unless they HAVE to die
right now -- like Hyppie or Joven or something like that). It's a
versatile deck, so I can't really say -- just give it a try and experiment.
Vincent Musolino
>The deck looks solid, but I wonder about making it Pro-Tourney legal.
You mean the "5 of this, 5 of that" thing ?
>
>Also, relying on white to do creature control is just asking for a
>Necrodeck to come and kick your butt with those protection from white
>pumpknights.
:) True. But here where I play, Necro decks are unknown and unheard of.
I'm putting one together after this one :)
>
>At the very least, if you're going to have so much blue, include some
>Control Magics standard -- or go my route and add more direct damage.
Control Magic... 2UU... Yeah why not. I have 3 WoG in there, and they kill the
prot. from Ws right ?
Magnar Sveen
>: 4 Howling Mines
>: 3 Winter Orbs
>: 4 Icy Manipulators
>Good balance. 3 is just right. 4, and you always end up wasting space.
>2, and you never see one when you need it.
I've played this kind of deck for some months now and I often find 3 to be too
few. I find myself wanting for a new one quite often. I don't know really, the
Orb is _really_ important.
>: 4 Disenchant
>: 2 Shatter
>Heavy, but I'm assuming that you killed a few mishras, yes? Why Shatters
>over divine offerings? This one, I cannot figure out. It's a nice way to
>stay alive, and gain life. Is it because of the white, as opposed to
>red, casting cost? This is the one thing I'd really disagree with.
I also use 4 Disenchant/2 Shatter in my deck. It's not that hard to understand
why; The deck has no problem running under a gloom because of all the
artifacts and red spells. But it have to get rid of the Disk. And that's why
Shatters are better than the Offerings.
>: 2 Wrath of God
>: 3 Stormbind
>I'd want 3 wraths, but your mana resources only give you 10 white, so I
>can see not doing it. *WHY* no cities of brass? I would think if you
>did cities over your reactive mana, then you could use a 3rd wrath.
Personally I don't use any Cities because the painlands run very smoothly with
all the artifacts/stormbind. The City doesn't.
But, Robert; Where are your StPs!?
>: 1 Ivory Tower
>: 1 Black Vise
>: 1 Recall
>: 1 Zuran Orb
>: 1 Balance
>: 1 Feldon's Cane
>2 canes, as you have seen.
Two canes aren't necessary if you run Library of Leng in the main-deck.
>: 2 Deflection
>Nice, if only to kill enemy mishras/hymns.
It's a nice touch. :) .. I might have to try them.
>: 64 in the main deck. Sideboard was 4 Serrated Arrows, 1 An-Zerrin Ruins (I
>: couldn't find another Homeland card in 5 minutes I had), 2 Tormod's Crypt,
>: 2 Stormseekers, 2 Library of Leng, 1 Aeolipile, and 3 Orggs.
>Why are the stormseekers in the sideboard? Need the defense that bad?
>Your deck is defensive, but it's not *that* defensive. I'd pull a
>shatter for one. Or a library, if you aren't going to play that way.
Pulling Shatters is a no-no.. Remember; This deck, as opposed to others, has
to get rid of Fellwar Stones! I've even though about adding another Shatter,
but I don't know what to remove. (After sideboard I can have 12 anti-artifact-
cards. I often pull them all in against creatureless-decks .. And I always use
every card I get)
>Tell me about the Orggs.
I'd rather have 3 Meekstones.
>once again, congrats!
Yeah, congrats Robert!
Later,
--
Magnar Sveen - mARSH mELLOW - msv...@telepost.no
Everything you know is wrong.
Robert S. Hahn
Also sprach Magnar Sveen (msv...@telepost.no):
: >Good balance. 3 is just right. 4, and you always end up wasting space.
: >2, and you never see one when you need it.
: I've played this kind of deck for some months now and I often find 3 to be too
: few. I find myself wanting for a new one quite often. I don't know really, the
: Orb is _really_ important.
I agree with Magnar here, except that I also do not want two Winter Orbs in
my hand in the early game. With the Howling Mines, I can usually get
Winter Orbs if I need. The little extra touch of Deflection helps protec
them in the mid-late game as well. You just have to see the look in a
guy's face when he's finally gotten the two mana needed to cast the
Disenchant that's been sitting in his hand only to have it Deflected onto
his Ivory Tower (that's been saving his butt from the Black Vise) to
understand.
: >I'd want 3 wraths, but your mana resources only give you 10 white, so I
: >can see not doing it. *WHY* no cities of brass? I would think if you
: >did cities over your reactive mana, then you could use a 3rd wrath.
: Personally I don't use any Cities because the painlands run very smoothly with
: all the artifacts/stormbind. The City doesn't.
: But, Robert; Where are your StPs!?
It was a hard choice to not play plows. It cost me a game, that's for
sure, when an Erhnam came out and I had no way of dealing with it. But my
reasoning was that the meta-game is important. The plows can't deal with
the pumpknights of Necroland, and they're ineffective against Willow. The
Icy can deal with Erhnams, Serras, Sengirs, and others of that ilk. If
more than one pops out, then I can (hopefully) Wrath them away. Finally,
if my strategy is working, then there should be no more than one Erhnam in
play during the game -- after that, there should be no mana to cast
anything bigger than an Elf (which would promptly get bolted or
Stormbinded).
: Two canes aren't necessary if you run Library of Leng in the main-deck.
True enough. I should consider that.
: >: 2 Deflection
: >Nice, if only to kill enemy mishras/hymns.
: It's a nice touch. :) .. I might have to try them.
They are DA BOMB -- these just... I can't even describe to you how nasty
these can be.
: >Tell me about the Orggs.
: I'd rather have 3 Meekstones.
I do run 2 Meekstones in the side. The Orggs are just killer creatures in
a transformative sideboard sense. I mean, the look on someone's face after
they've sideboarded out the anti-creature stuff and didn't draw the plow
they left for my Mishras to face a 6/6 Trampler on turn 4 (easy with
Fellwars).... OUCH! :)
Magnar Sveen
>: I've played this kind of deck for some months now and I often find 3 to be
>: too few. I find myself wanting for a new one quite often. I don't know
>: really, the Orb is _really_ important.
>I agree with Magnar here, except that I also do not want two Winter Orbs in
>my hand in the early game. With the Howling Mines, I can usually get
>Winter Orbs if I need.
Yes, the Orbs often sat in my hand without being useful before I removed one.
But I still miss the extra Orb. It's just so fun watching your opponent who
disenchanted the orb in his own turn when you put out a new one after
untapping all your land. :)
Btw; I sometimes have a hard time knowing if I should tap my opponents land to
keep him low on mana, or if I should tap the Orb to play more stuff. It sort
of depends though; If I think I can let him get another two mana without
seriously threatning my plans, I usually like to reset my mana. Often to put
out another Icy. (Which always results in a groan from my opponent. :))
>The little extra touch of Deflection helps protect them in the mid-late game
>as well. You just have to see the look in a guy's face when he's finally
>gotten the two mana needed to cast the Disenchant that's been sitting in his
>hand only to have it Deflected onto his Ivory Tower (that's been saving his
>butt from the Black Vise) to understand.
That sounds incredibly cool! :) .. Until now my only blue spell was a power
sink, with "SURPRISE" written in large letters on it. :) .. I'm going to have
to add a Deflection or two.
>: But, Robert; Where are your StPs!?
>It was a hard choice to not play plows. It cost me a game, that's for
>sure, when an Erhnam came out and I had no way of dealing with it. But my
>reasoning was that the meta-game is important. The plows can't deal with
>the pumpknights of Necroland, and they're ineffective against Willow. The
>Icy can deal with Erhnams, Serras, Sengirs, and others of that ilk. If
>more than one pops out, then I can (hopefully) Wrath them away.
I can see your reasoning .. I guess I'm too conservative - Can't leave home
without some plowshares to distribute.
>Finally, if my strategy is working, then there should be no more than one
>Erhnam in play during the game..
I actually made this mistake a couple of times in the beginning; Not putting
the Orb out after an Ernham.. And along comes the Willow .. I've learned my
lesson.
>..after that, there should be no mana to cast anything bigger than an Elf
>(which would promptly get bolted or Stormbinded).
During a tournament some time ago I played against another Orb-deck which
based itself on elves and birds.. He sort of snuffed when I sideboarded three
pyroclasms and a serrated arrows. :)
>: Two canes aren't necessary if you run Library of Leng in the main-deck.
>True enough. I should consider that.
>: >: 2 Deflection
>: It's a nice touch. :) .. I might have to try them.
>They are DA BOMB -- these just... I can't even describe to you how nasty
>these can be.
:) They're going in.
>: I'd rather have 3 Meekstones.
>I do run 2 Meekstones in the side. The Orggs are just killer creatures in
>a transformative sideboard sense. I mean, the look on someone's face after
>they've sideboarded out the anti-creature stuff and didn't draw the plow
>they left for my Mishras to face a 6/6 Trampler on turn 4 (easy with
>Fellwars).... OUCH! :)
:) I've always loved the Orgg...
Matt Dickinson
What is the deck that Robert Hahn played, it seems very similar to
something i played around with after the restriction of the vise. Could
someone please give a deck listing of roberts deck and sidboard and the
strategies involved with it.....
thanks
Matt Dickinson