Disguisted by Reports from Atlanta
Elliot Fertik
I just finished reading the report on the Dojo from Grand-Prix Atlanta,
which included a "gossip" section relating to various events that
happened during the Grand Prix. I was amazed by some of the taudry
goings-on that were reported, many of them involving Magic's top players.
Among the highlights (and here I am relying directly on the Dojo report,
as I did not witness any of these incidents myself):
1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
life total is put at 8.
2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
money.
3) During a draft, Justice apparently ends up with a fourth Muscle
Sliver, even though people don't remember him drafting four Slivers. One
of the Slivers is obviously different from the others (different print
run), and Justice claims he bought a new sliver to replace the old one,
which had a factory defect. He also claims he threw the old Muscle Sliver
away. Justice declines an offer to look through the trash for the old
Sliver card, and is DQ'd.
I can't swear that any of the above players cheated, but together the
whole picture paints a very unsavory picture among some of the top Magic
players. It's funny how it is always the same players who have these
stories circulate about them - Long, Schneider, and to a lesser degree
Justice.
My question is simply - why can't the DCI do something about this
miscreats? Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
I'm not sure exactly what else can be done - after all, the DCI can't
suspend someone based solely on their reputation. I'm just saddened and
frustrated to see such dirty tricks and other ilicit behavior take place
at premier Magic events.
-Elliot Fertik
RScottK
I have had to suffer with Long & Schnieder for years, and they make even tiny
little tourneys in the Maryland- Virginia area nearly unbearable. As
"ambassadors" to Magic they have probably done more than any other duo in North
America to solidify the reputation of Magic as a game for virginal, unwashed,
unethical and friendless teenage dweebs.
I love Magic. It's a great game. But for it to ever be accepted by the
general public as a true game of skill and strategy (like Chess), DCI will have
to get some cojones and **ban** cheaters from all DCI-sanctioned events. I'm
not talking about a game or match forfeiture; I'm talking a Latrell Sprewell
style 6-month or 1-year ban for repeated cheating and unsportsmanlike conduct.
I'm sure Mike Long thinks he's the Bobby Fisher of Magic, and his cheating is
akin to Fisher's famous mind games and eccentricities. Long should remember
that Fisher was stripped of the title for his tantrums, demands and behavior
and he went into a 25-year spiral of isolation, madness and mental decay.
Yes, this is a harsh post, but I'm a 30-something Magic player who believes
that sportsmanship, upstanding behavior and a life well led are as important as
wins and losses. It's embarrassing to see or read about childish,
self-centered, unethical and immoral play. I hope Schnieder and Long enjoy
their few dollars of booty. When they grow up and have to get into the real
world and get real jobs, they'll find employers won't just penalize them a
"game" forfeit for cheating or lying.
Roger "Super Scrub" Keith
Michael Bahr
RScottK wrote:
>
> I have had to suffer with Long & Schnieder for years, and they make even tiny
> little tourneys in the Maryland- Virginia area nearly unbearable. As
You know, as much as I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt,
I've been hearing about the cheating of those two for so many years now,
it's really becoming bluntly obvious that they are a serious problem
that that DCI needs to deal with. It's not the severity of the reports
that concerns me, it's the consistency of the reports.
--
- Mike Bahr - Prism Records
- d u r n i k @ g o o d n e t . c o m
- http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
star...@hotmail.com
In article <3522B6...@goodnet.com>,
dur...@goodnet.com wrote:
> You know, as much as I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt,
I think that's the first problem -- DCI-wide.
If you get thrown out of a baseball game, everyone present knows it.
Football, same thing...
It's time for the rules to be enforced and the ambiguity of "judge discretion"
closed a bit. There's too much benefit of the doubt going on, and it damages
the continued credibility of the sport.
> I've been hearing about the cheating of those two for so many years now,
> it's really becoming bluntly obvious that they are a serious problem
> that that DCI needs to deal with. It's not the severity of the reports
> that concerns me, it's the consistency of the reports.
The problem is, it's not just these two. It's the whole DCI at the Pro Tour
level. I mean, we don't go more than one Pro Tour without hearing of at least
3 bad calls that should've resulted in disqualification...
Mike
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
star...@hotmail.com
In article <6fs0d0$n...@netaxs.com>,
efe...@netaxs.com (Elliot Fertik) wrote:
> 1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
> when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
> life total is put at 8.
I still do not understand how Long was not penalized further for this.
> 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
> a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
> upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
> killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
> case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
> in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
> money.
This is __WRONG__!!!!
Schneider should be DQ'ed, and this kind of thing really should be sent to the
DCI with retroactive results. This is __STUPID__!!!!
You allow this -- you might as well allow a person to go back multiple turns
too, while you're at it.
I'm sorry, but that one is wrong.
> 3) During a draft, Justice apparently ends up with a fourth Muscle
> Sliver, even though people don't remember him drafting four Slivers. One
> of the Slivers is obviously different from the others (different print
> run), and Justice claims he bought a new sliver to replace the old one,
> which had a factory defect. He also claims he threw the old Muscle Sliver
> away. Justice declines an offer to look through the trash for the old
> Sliver card, and is DQ'd.
Justice did not have a good weekend. I would not be surprised to see him not
at PTNY as a result of this. He was apparently warned for a foul in the Long
argument as well, before this DQ.
> My question is simply - why can't the DCI do something about this
> miscreats?
Too many of the top judges have a financial stake in the tournament, esp. as
high as PTQ's.
I have no hesitation to throw a player out [and make a point of it so that the
other players know the rule is being enforced] if the situation calls for it.
It's time for the era of "judge discretion" to stop, and the time for the
Floor Rules to be enforced as written and intended to begin. Otherwise, Magic
loses all credibility as a professional sport, and the game itself will suffer
and perhaps die.
> Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
> DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
> importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
> know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
> have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
Intimidation, and perhaps that it is SO rampant that those on the Pro Tour
realize you HAVE TO cheat to do well on the PT.
For their sake, if they think this way, they had better pray that I don't see
them as a judge at PTNY. I put my name in to judge events, and if they think
they're going to get away with the stuff, in the main or in the side
tournaments, that they have gotten away with, they are sorely mistaken!
> I'm not sure exactly what else can be done - after all, the DCI can't
> suspend someone based solely on their reputation. I'm just saddened and
> frustrated to see such dirty tricks and other ilicit behavior take place
> at premier Magic events.
I think the first thing the DCI should do is give the TO's a safety net,
financially. It seems that all the TO's are interested in, because they have
to put their money into it, is to get as many as possible to attend, damn the
rules to keep the players in the tournament and happy...
It's also this kind of situation that leads judges who are experienced PT
players to ignore the Floor Rules outright as well.
I'm sorry -- are we judges or marketers???
star...@hotmail.com
In article <199804010632...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rsc...@aol.com (RScottK) wrote:
>
> I have had to suffer with Long & Schnieder for years, and they make even
tiny
> little tourneys in the Maryland- Virginia area nearly unbearable. As
North
> America to solidify the reputation of Magic as a game for virginal,
unwashed,
> unethical and friendless teenage dweebs.
The only way to change that opinion, though, is for the DCI to totally rewrite
the system to stop PTQ's and PT's as marketing devices and make them credible
competitions. The two states [marketing device and credible competition] are
impossible to make both happen at the same time, especially in an environment
such as exists now.
> I love Magic. It's a great game. But for it to ever be accepted by the
> general public as a true game of skill and strategy (like Chess), DCI will
have
> to get some cojones and **ban** cheaters from all DCI-sanctioned events.
I'm
> not talking about a game or match forfeiture; I'm talking a Latrell Sprewell
> style 6-month or 1-year ban for repeated cheating and unsportsmanlike
conduct.
Let me give you an example of how the DCI works: To get a three-month
suspension from playing, you have to be a head judge at a PTQ [Class C] event
who chooses to play in said event. That's an extremely egregious offense with
comparison to cheating in a standard tournament.
Magic is not a game of skill, especially at the highest levels. Judges are
expected to respect the players -- Hell, give me a group of players at the
highest level who play by the rules at a tournament that I might judge, and
they'll get my respect. If not, they get the thumb, and I'll make a point of
it to let all the players know the rules will be enforced. If some call it
wanting to find errors to disqualify, fine. I disagree, but, given the
current environment, I can see it.
> I'm sure Mike Long thinks he's the Bobby Fisher of Magic, and his cheating
is
> akin to Fisher's famous mind games and eccentricities.
He's RIGHT!!!!!!!
The problem is that Fischer should've lost the entire match to Spassky upon
his forfeiture of game 2, and the fact that FIDE caved to him destroyed the
credibility of top-level chess in the USA ever since, because most people here
thought of Fischer as an absolute delusional idiot!
> Long should remember
> that Fisher was stripped of the title for his tantrums, demands and behavior
> and he went into a 25-year spiral of isolation, madness and mental decay.
But the problem is, to liken Magic to Chess brings this kind of a situation to
the forefront.
I believe Fischer was stripped, more, because he refused to defend under FIDE
rules, if I am not mistaken, but that's tangential. He was already mad by the
time he was World Champion.
And if we allow this madness to continue, we're going to raise a similar breed
of "athlete" in Magic the Gathering, and the game will die, much less the
sport.
> Yes, this is a harsh post, but I'm a 30-something Magic player who believes
> that sportsmanship, upstanding behavior and a life well led are as important
as
> wins and losses.
And the bottom line is that until the DCI changes it's ideas on what the Pro
Tour is, and actually makes the environment such that a judge is not afraid
to, and will suffer no repercussions by, enforce[ing] the Floor Rules, this is
going to be ENCOURAGED conduct, which is much worse than allowed conduct.
> It's embarrassing to see or read about childish,
> self-centered, unethical and immoral play. I hope Schnieder and Long enjoy
> their few dollars of booty. When they grow up and have to get into the real
> world and get real jobs, they'll find employers won't just penalize them a
> "game" forfeit for cheating or lying.
The only question, here, though, is: With their kind of situation, will they
ever need to get real jobs??
Jason Barker
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 star...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > 1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
> > when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
> > life total is put at 8.
>
> I still do not understand how Long was not penalized further for this.
He's a pro tour player...it's like in Basketball how if Michael Jordan and
some scrub on the Timberwolves collide the foul will be called on the
scrub. Jordan could NEVER foul...kinda like how Long, Schneider and
Justice could NEVER cheat. To win at magic all you have to do is cheat.
It's as simple as that. Winning takes no skill, only the skill of how to
not get caught. Until things are changed this is the way it will be.
> > 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
> > a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
> > upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
> > killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
> > case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
> > in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
> > money.
>
> This is __WRONG__!!!!
Schneider is a PT player, so it can't be wrong. Frankly by drawing a card
Melissa let Schneider KNOW that main phase was beginning and upkeep had
ended. The time for Schneider to go back was then.
>
> Schneider should be DQ'ed, and this kind of thing really should be sent to the
> DCI with retroactive results. This is __STUPID__!!!!
Have you ever seen Jordan ejected from a play off game???
> You allow this -- you might as well allow a person to go back multiple turns
> too, while you're at it.
They do, I've seen it. Just go back two turns and start over...yeah that
sure is a solution.
> > 3) During a draft, Justice apparently ends up with a fourth Muscle
> > Sliver, even though people don't remember him drafting four Slivers. One
> > of the Slivers is obviously different from the others (different print
> > run), and Justice claims he bought a new sliver to replace the old one,
> > which had a factory defect. He also claims he threw the old Muscle Sliver
> > away. Justice declines an offer to look through the trash for the old
> > Sliver card, and is DQ'd.
>
> Justice did not have a good weekend. I would not be surprised to see him not
> at PTNY as a result of this. He was apparently warned for a foul in the Long
> argument as well, before this DQ.
>
He didn't have a good weekend?? What you mean is he was CAUGHT this
weekend. A good weekend I guess means NOT being caught???
> > My question is simply - why can't the DCI do something about this
> > miscreats?
They don't care. As long as they are rolling in dough and us scrubs still
attend cheating infested events why would they give a rats ass what
happens??
> > Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
> > DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
> > importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
> > know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
> > have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
>
> Intimidation, and perhaps that it is SO rampant that those on the Pro Tour
> realize you HAVE TO cheat to do well on the PT.
They do all realize that. And they are all cheaters as well (OK, I don't
personally know all of the regulars. Let's guess 20% of them cheat
constantly, and I'm sure that is a low number)
star...@hotmail.com
> > 1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
> > when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
> > life total is put at 8.
>
> I still do not understand how Long was not penalized further for this.
<<He's a pro tour player...it's like in Basketball how if Michael Jordan and
some scrub on the Timberwolves collide the foul will be called on the
scrub. Jordan could NEVER foul...kinda like how Long, Schneider and
Justice could NEVER cheat. To win at magic all you have to do is cheat.>>
OK, then here's the question:
When are we going to stop accepting this, and, effectively, disband the Pro
Tour from the inside???
I mean, if all the Pro Tour is is a marketing exercise for WotC, as I've been
told, and this is the kind of stuff necessary to win, why not blow the doors
off the Pro Tour by telling people that the emperor has no clothes??
The Pro Tour [and, dare I say to a great extent, Magic itself] will continue
only as long as it is credible. If it loses all of it's credibility, it dies.
<<It's as simple as that. Winning takes no skill, only the skill of how to
not get caught. Until things are changed this is the way it will be.>>
There's two things that need to be changed:
1> Tournament organizers basically have to put their own money up, in many
cases, to put together even qualifier tournaments. If one enforces the rules
too tightly, they lose players.
HELLO!!!!!!!! What about if you don't enforce them enough???????
2> Judge discretion -- two dirty words that basically rewrite the Standard
Floor Rules.
> > 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
> > a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
> > upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
> > killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
> > case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
> > in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
> > money.
>
> This is __WRONG__!!!!
<<Schneider is a PT player, so it can't be wrong. Frankly by drawing a card
Melissa let Schneider KNOW that main phase was beginning and upkeep had
ended. The time for Schneider to go back was then.>>
Lang is also a PT player.
The bottom line is that, if they really wanted to be stupid about it, Lang
should've forfeited the game in question then and there. It would've
exacerbated the incorrectness of the original call, but she's already,
technically, violated a couple of rules at that point.
The problem, of course, is that Schneider was a dimwit. He, or anyone, EVER
pulls that at a tournament I am even a subordinate judge at, and he goes or I
do.
That simple.
> Schneider should be DQ'ed, and this kind of thing really should be sent to
the
> DCI with retroactive results. This is __STUPID__!!!!
<<Have you ever seen Jordan ejected from a play off game???>>
This is why I became a DCI judge. I have no interest in marketing the game to
fraudulent players. I want to help clean up the sport. Period.
Marketing the game with this kind of an atmosphere is fraud. Fraud to the
players who are in the sport, those who wish to join, and those who wish to
observe.
I need to know, without question, what my role as a DCI judge would be.
Let's put it this way: I put my name in the hat for volunteering for PT-NY.
I will be very interested to see if they let me judge [they need 50+ for the
booster draft]. If they're content with just their happy-happy-joy-joy thing
and their emperor having no clothes, then you don't want me as a judge.
At ANY level.
Period.
If my ability to enforce the rules as written is hamstrung by outside agendas,
financial or otherwise, I'll turn in my judging card and get out of the sport
entirely.
> Justice did not have a good weekend. I would not be surprised to see him
not
> at PTNY as a result of this. He was apparently warned for a foul in the
Long
> argument as well, before this DQ.
<<He didn't have a good weekend?? What you mean is he was CAUGHT this
weekend. A good weekend I guess means NOT being caught???>>
Let's put it this way -- that is the appearance of it, isn't it... :)
<<They don't care. As long as they are rolling in dough and us scrubs still
attend cheating infested events why would they give a rats ass what
happens??>>
#1: Stop attending the events.
#2: I'd start looking around the documentation [the Floor Rules, the other
DCI stuff, and the like], and I'd start seeing if there was a situation where
you were placed in financial harm because of such an event. I think lawsuits
are not out of the question if this does not improve...
> > Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
> > DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
> > importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
> > know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
> > have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
>
> Intimidation, and perhaps that it is SO rampant that those on the Pro Tour
> realize you HAVE TO cheat to do well on the PT.
<<They do all realize that. And they are all cheaters as well (OK, I don't
personally know all of the regulars. Let's guess 20% of them cheat
constantly, and I'm sure that is a low number)>>
I don't know -- but, trust me, I do hope to be in a position to be more
observant and to find out, very soon.
Myron Mychal
Elliot Fertik wrote:
> 1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
> when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
> life total is put at 8.
Make them both lose and get some CREDIBLE Magic Players into the finals.
> 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
> a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
> upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
> killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
> case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
> in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
> money.
Melissa - wherever you are, I hope that you get God draws for all matches
against that rat b**tard for doing this to you and GETTING AWAY WITH IT! Mr.
Schneider - children in kindergarten playing cops and robbers have more
etiquette and sportsmanship than you do for pulling this baby-whining off.
I am a teaching assistant at a university and we have a VERY strict policy on
collusion and collabortaing on homeworks/exams most of which lead directly to
suspension if not expulsion from the university. This can blast someone's
entire CAREER. It encourages integrity and honesty amongst the students for
preparation into their vocational awareeee. Why can't the tour promote
honesty and credibility similarly?
"Oh - you are a Northwestern point guard that gambled on your own team and
shaved off a couple of points in a meaningless game? Well - EXPELLED,
IMPRISONED . . . probably tainted for life . . . just one game? TOUGH!"
Mrs. Long, Schneider, Justice: I will probably never be as skilled a Magic
Player as any of you, and quite frankly, from what I see and read, I am
THANKFUL!
> 3) During a draft, Justice apparently ends up with a fourth Muscle
> Sliver, even though people don't remember him drafting four Slivers. One
> of the Slivers is obviously different from the others (different print
> run), and Justice claims he bought a new sliver to replace the old one,
> which had a factory defect. He also claims he threw the old Muscle Sliver
> away. Justice declines an offer to look through the trash for the old
> Sliver card, and is DQ'd.
And SHOULD have been banned from DCI sanctioned events a'la Lattrell
Sprewell-style. MAKE CHEATERS PAY, WotC!!!!! Or people like me who buy
TONS of packs and boosters at PT Qualifiers (and bring MANY MANY friends to
play too) will stop endorsing your product and stop purchasing it!
> I can't swear that any of the above players cheated, but together the
> whole picture paints a very unsavory picture among some of the top Magic
> players. It's funny how it is always the same players who have these
> stories circulate about them - Long, Schneider, and to a lesser degree
> Justice.
Hey - I could care DIDDLY about someone's name. GOod magic players with a
rep? Fine - so be it. You cheat? I don't care if your name is Mahatma
Ghandi - you CHEATED. You BROKE THE RULES. No special treatments for you.
Nada - zip - zilch! Take your cards, go homeeee and do not come back here
anymore and wear this sign: 'Does not play well with others'
> My question is simply - why can't the DCI do something about this
> miscreats? Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
> DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
If the professional boxing associations can ban a Mike Tyson, the DCI should
be able to ban these cheaters. It would give all of the HONEST Magic players
in the world a chance to praise WotC for doing the right thing.
> importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
> know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
> have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
My suggestion for a plan of attack whenever playing against these "good"
Magic players.
'Hello Mr. Long! Sit down, shut up and riffle shuffle your deck 5000 times
here . . . desleeve . . . resleeve . . . desleeve again . . . Judge! I'd
like 4 accountants on hand - one to count Mr. Long's cards in hand, the other
to count Mr. Long's life total. a third to record all plays made during game
time and a fourth to stand over and give constant "If you cheat I will feed
you to my Doberman" looks.'
*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
event*
*take fingertprints of all cards touched during match*
*call for medical technician to do DNA analysis on a 'need-to-know' basis*
Gee . . . playing Magic against the "pros" is soooo much fun!
*off my soapboxing tirade*
M. Mychal
star...@hotmail.com
Myron Mychal:
> 1) Mike Long claiming his life was at 8 in a match with Mark Justice,
> when Justice's notes show his life at 6. After a judges' meeting, his
> life total is put at 8.
<<Make them both lose and get some CREDIBLE Magic Players into the finals.>>
Your prejudice against them is showing. I would definitely have considered
disqualifying Long, yes, but Justice didn't foul by questioning the life
totals.
(He did, however, foul and was warned for profanity used against Long during
the argument...)
> 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
> a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
> upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
> killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
> case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
> in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
> money.
<<Melissa - wherever you are, I hope that you get God draws for all matches
against that rat b**tard for doing this to you and GETTING AWAY WITH IT! Mr.
Schneider - children in kindergarten playing cops and robbers have more
etiquette and sportsmanship than you do for pulling this baby-whining off.>>
What does he care?? It's dollars and cents and winning at all cost to him.
What does he care what you think???
Unless you're willing to become a judge and really throw the hammer down...
*shows DCI Judge card* And I'm going to New York...
<<I am a teaching assistant at a university and we have a VERY strict policy
on collusion and collabortaing on homeworks/exams most of which lead directly
to suspension if not expulsion from the university. This can blast someone's
entire CAREER. It encourages integrity and honesty amongst the students for
preparation into their vocational aware. Why can't the tour promote
honesty and credibility similarly?>>
That's a good question. One answer that I have surmised is that they don't
want to lose this top echelon of players at all -- and are afraid if someone
actually enforces rules of common sense, that these people will leave the
sport and no one will fill the void honorably.
You and I believe that might be untrue.
Also, remember that most tournaments actually have to be subsidized by the
organizer, so if he's in a position to judge, it's not really plausible for
him to want to alienate anyone. Since enough players are willing to fill the
void left by those too disgusted with it to want to continue...
<<Mrs. Long, Schneider, Justice: I will probably never be as skilled a Magic
Player as any of you, and quite frankly, from what I see and read, I am
THANKFUL!>>
Become a judge. Work up on the rules and become a judge. Become one that
people like them don't want to see at tournaments.
> 3) During a draft, Justice apparently ends up with a fourth Muscle
> Sliver, even though people don't remember him drafting four Slivers. One
> of the Slivers is obviously different from the others (different print
> run), and Justice claims he bought a new sliver to replace the old one,
> which had a factory defect. He also claims he threw the old Muscle Sliver
> away. Justice declines an offer to look through the trash for the old
> Sliver card, and is DQ'd.
<<And SHOULD have been banned from DCI sanctioned events a'la Lattrell
Sprewell-style. MAKE CHEATERS PAY, WotC!!!!!>>
You see, Justice's weekend should be cause for a DCI investigation. I
certainly would have no problem seeing him barred from PT-NY and the nationals
and worlds.
<<Or people like me who buy TONS of packs and boosters at PT Qualifiers (and
bring MANY MANY friends to play too) will stop endorsing your product and stop
purchasing it!>>
That may be the only recourse. Sadly, the sport is going to cause the game to
die, and they are two different entities.
> I can't swear that any of the above players cheated, but together the
> whole picture paints a very unsavory picture among some of the top Magic
> players. It's funny how it is always the same players who have these
> stories circulate about them - Long, Schneider, and to a lesser degree
> Justice.
<<Hey - I could care DIDDLY about someone's name. GOod magic players with a
rep? Fine - so be it. You cheat? I don't care if your name is Mahatma
Ghandi - you CHEATED. You BROKE THE RULES. No special treatments for you.
Nada - zip - zilch! Take your cards, go home and do not come back here
anymore and wear this sign: 'Does not play well with others'>>
And he'll tell you to fuck off when he's cashing his check for $25 thou.
(Not to be against you, but it's gotta start on the Pro Tour. There needs to
be the execution squad of judges at PT-NY.)
> My question is simply - why can't the DCI do something about this
> miscreats? Why is a player with Long's reputation being invited to the
> DCI invitational - heck, why is he still on the Pro-Tour? Even more
<<If the professional boxing associations can ban a Mike Tyson, the DCI should
be able to ban these cheaters.>>
Look what had to happen to ban Tyson, though...
I mean, this guy was INSANE...
> importantly, why are players like him tolerated by the others. Sure, I
> know that some good, honest Magic players, like Pikula, Price, and Hacker
> have said things in the past - but why don't others speak up?
<<'Hello Mr. Long! Sit down, shut up and riffle shuffle your deck 5000 times
here . . . desleeve . . . resleeve . . . desleeve again . . . Judge! I'd
like 4 accountants on hand - one to count Mr. Long's cards in hand, the other
to count Mr. Long's life total. a third to record all plays made during game
time and a fourth to stand over and give constant "If you cheat I will feed
you to my Doberman" looks.'>>
He'd call a judge on you awful quick. I would say, though, in a sealed
tournament at that level, there should be enough judges that one should
basically be following Long, one Justice, one Hovi, one Schneider, etc.
<<*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
event*>>
You may need that...
<<Gee . . . playing Magic against the "pros" is soooo much fun!>>
You expected otherwise with $150K on the table??
It ain't fun... It's a professional sport.
fredspencer
After reading all of these synopsis' I've decided that an e-mail sent by all
who feel "discouraged" by practices like these are do in the wizards and DCI
mail boxes. Maybe if they get enough they might acknoledge the problem. If
they ignore it their mail servers will crash from ignored mail.
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
Jason Barker <jba...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>Schneider is a PT player, so it can't be wrong. Frankly by drawing a card
>Melissa let Schneider KNOW that main phase was beginning and upkeep had
>ended. The time for Schneider to go back was then.
It depends on how quickly the whole thing happened. It's clearly possible
to start your turn and go straight to draw phase and start drawing mana without
any agreement by your opponent that upkeep had ended and the draw phase had
begun. I guess this is why a number of pro players claim they doggedly
announce each new phase as it begins thoughout an entire game.
I'm not saying Melissa actually did this wrong. Just that it's possible she
did. It all depends on what really happened which only someone who was
present at the time could talk about.
Justin certainly came away with the advantage from the ruling, however. It
sounds as if he was allowed to play a critical turn of a match with the
knowledge that his opponent held a game-ending card but needed all of here
mana resources to cast it, while he had a means of preventing her from using
it. What's assinine is that if he _really_ want to remove the manakin, it
makes no sense whatsoever to wait until Melissa's upkeep phase when it was
untapped and could be used an extra time (just not for a sorcery). So Justin
was allowed to take an action he'd already basically passed up taking due to
the extra knowledge the judge allowed him to have.
Fred
Michael Bahr
star...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Unless you're willing to become a judge and really throw the hammer down...
>
> *shows DCI Judge card* And I'm going to New York...
Good for you. I'm a L2 judge but can't afford to travel about much...
and the locals are fairly honourable, so I'll let you do what you are no
doubt going to do, and just know that I and the silent majority support
you.
> <<*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
> event*>>
>
> You may need that...
I've actually considered bringing my camcorder to PTQs. I wonder if the
head judge would approve.
sagrillo
fred_...@netcom.com (Frederick Scott) wrote:
>Jason Barker <jba...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>Fred
While we all may believe it is likely she played at a normal
speed (where Justic could easily have jumped in but did not)--and
simply did not announce something like "we are entering main phase
now, any objections. Hmm, Any objections? Is it ok to move to the
next itty bitty phase now?" so that Justin could SAY he didn't have
time (once he knew he could save himself by backing up)...while we all
may believe it, it is hard to prove.
That's why cheaters are getting away with so much...it is hard to
prove many weren't honest mistakes. You just accidentally put all the
lands in your deck backwards. You just accidentally .... it goes on
and on.
---
Your garden variety mage,
DeAnn Iwan
ODariani
> While we all may believe it is likely she played at a normal
>time (once he knew he could save himself by backing up)...while we all
>may believe it, it is hard to prove.
>
everything i've read (read, not firsthand knowledge) says there was time
between drawing her card and playing the thunder. besides, as any good player
knows, if you want to do something during the upkeep, as soon as they reach for
the card, say so. reaching to draw is a silent signal that you are entering a
phase, like picking up a thawing glaciers signals the end of your turn.
the way this looks, on paper anyway, is very underhanded. if schneider wanted
to double edict during the upkeep, he would have the second melissa reached for
a card. of course he didn't want to. why would he, in the middle of a
standoff, just decide to double edict? unless it gave him an offensive
benefit, there is no reason. i can't believe he got away with it, the judge
should have realized the situation and ruled accordingly.
of course, living in virginia, i get my share of firsthand "why i hate mike
long and justing schneider" stories. i'll just add this to the scrapbook.
> That's why cheaters are getting away with so much...it is hard to
>prove many weren't honest mistakes. You just accidentally put all the
>lands in your deck backwards. You just accidentally .... it goes on
>and on.
>
>
its only hard because they make it hard to prove. that's why people who make
honest mistakes are more severly penalized than people outirght cheating.
tommi hovi gets caught because all his islands "look alike." what is his
penalty? game loss. he didn't even lose because the cards were marked. he
lost because he could not replace them "in a timely fashion." i recieved a
warning at a sealed deck ptq because my deck's registerer didn't write down a
grave servitude. if he hadn't written down two more cards, i'd have been dqed.
people don't cheat in obvious ways anymore, its all bending the rules now.
going back phases, laying extra lands, things like that. they're all things
you only recieve a warning for doing... the risk isn't great, so what deterrant
is there?
personally, i think a professional fine system for money events should be used.
that would stop cheating quickly, especially is the judges were given more
room to find and punish cheaters. when everyone that saw the match saw a rat,
why wasn't schneider refuted?
now, if he were fined 2000$ and banned from the pt for a year, he wouldn't do
that again.
until something like this is implemented, making cheating too costly, we'll
continue to see it run rampant.
i remember a "long" time ago, when "someone" was ejected from a type I
tournament in the finals for playing all alpha land and non alpha cards.
that's the same as playing marked islands... why wasn't hovi dqed as well?
omeed.
lord of the dance
ODariani
> I've actually considered bringing my camcorder to PTQs. I wonder if the
>head judge would approve.
>
>
is scouting. if the tape was in the hands of the judge between rounds, you
might be given an exception, if you make a good case for it.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <35248831...@mediaone.net>,
Don't try the LISTSERV -- it's already crashed. It's been down for 3-4 days.
Letters to individual staff seem to work, although I can tell you that Jason
Carl has been quite surprised at the amount of mail supporting the DCI's
decision.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <3524A3...@goodnet.com>,
dur...@goodnet.com wrote:
>
> star...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Unless you're willing to become a judge and really throw the hammer
down...
> >
> > *shows DCI Judge card* And I'm going to New York...
>
> and the locals are fairly honourable, so I'll let you do what you are no
> doubt going to do, and just know that I and the silent majority support
> you.
The only thing is is that I don't know if they're going to entrust me with
that. I don't expect them to, although I'm sure that at least Jason Carl
would actually like to see me come to Class B event and see it from the
judge's point of view [as much e-mail as I sometimes send to him on these
matters ;)].
I _KNOW_ that my presence and my judging style will alienate some players.
My answer to that is that: 1> There are some players that deserve some
alienation. 2> Some players who make more innocent mistakes have to be called
on them as if they weren't. It's the only way to ensure equitable
competition, at all levels. and 3> I believe the "execution style" of judging
is needed. I would really like to see how a Pro Tour would happen if the
rules could actually be enforced.
> > <<*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
> > event*>>
> >
> > You may need that...
>
> I've actually considered bringing my camcorder to PTQs. I wonder if
the
> head judge would approve.
As a judge or player? As a player, I don't think so...
As a judge, I think it's a very good idea.
star...@hotmail.com
Myron Mychal:
> against that rat b**tard for doing this to you and GETTING AWAY WITH IT!
Mr.
> Schneider - children in kindergarten playing cops and robbers have more
> etiquette and sportsmanship than you do for pulling this baby-whining off.>>
>
> What does he care?? It's dollars and cents and winning at all cost to him.
> What does he care what you think???
>
> Unless you're willing to become a judge and really throw the hammer down...
>
> *shows DCI Judge card* And I'm going to New York...
<<As a matter of fact
*showing application fee and request for Judge Certification*
Yes - I am going to work on becoming a Judge.>>
And that's the main reason I bothered. They may not like my style, but they
know that when a balls-to-the-wall judge is needed, I'll be there if the DCI
wants that kind of a judge.
Now *that* might be an open question.
> That's a good question. One answer that I have surmised is that they don't
> want to lose this top echelon of players at all -- and are afraid if someone
> actually enforces rules of common sense, that these people will leave the
> sport and no one will fill the void honorably.
<<Well - a lot of people who are not professionals actually BUY their cards
instead of winning them. So where does WotC make their business? From guys
like me who buy a box of Stronghold or PT winners that always win their
cards?>>
Many of these people also run card shops. I'd say a great amount of their
business comes from the PT players, and the fact that there is a PT at all!
I would think a number of the better players wouldn't continue playing if
there wasn't $25K at the end of the rainbow, but a $25 gift certificate to the
local store...
> Become a judge. Work up on the rules and become a judge. Become one that
> people like them don't want to see at tournaments.
<<I am - I am studying D'Angelo's and talking to the level 3 judges in my
area. And I hope I can become a level high enough to watch a match like this
take place, and insure that honesty and fair play become the norm.>>
Well, I'm only a Level I myself, but they did say they needed 50 or so judges
for the Limited part of the Pro Tour. I would hope that it's not just level
that they look at, for I fear that part of being a higher level is being more
married to the money machine [that is, feeding into it, not getting out from
it], and that financial considerations [retaining more players = more cash for
the TO = more gain/less loss from the tournament] might have more to do with
the judging process than we think.
If that's the case, the DCI needs to die, as it's a simple conflict of
interest.
> <<Hey - I could care DIDDLY about someone's name. GOod magic players with
a
> rep? Fine - so be it. You cheat? I don't care if your name is Mahatma
> Ghandi - you CHEATED. You BROKE THE RULES. No special treatments for you.
> Nada - zip - zilch! Take your cards, go home and do not come back here
> anymore and wear this sign: 'Does not play well with others'>>
>
> And he'll tell you to fuck off when he's cashing his check for $25 thou.
<<True . . . but at least he can't buy dignity and honor with his 25 grand.>>
He doesn't want your dignity and honor. Dignity and honor don't give him
bragging rights -- dignity and honor don't buy him the plane ticket to the
next Pro Tour. Dignity and honor are foreign concepts to a person who
knows that they don't do squat! The be all and end all is the money. That's
_IT_!!!!!!
And when you realize that mindset, you realize the only way to deal with them
is reach into their grubby little pockets and yank it out as hard as possible.
> Look what had to happen to ban Tyson, though...
>
> I mean, this guy was INSANE...
<<Maybe we can coax Mike Long to take a nibble out of Justice's ear . . .>>
*giggle*
> <<*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
> event*>>
>
> You may need that...
>
> <<Gee . . . playing Magic against the "pros" is soooo much fun!>>
>
> You expected otherwise with $150K on the table??
>
> It ain't fun... It's a professional sport.
<<Yeah - I think I'll go back to teaching kids how to play with Thallid decks
. . .>>
It stopped being a game, and stopped being simply "fun", the moment the big
money hit the table in late '95 [yes, I know, WotC didn't start the PT til
'96, but I can trace big-money Magic a little further back than that...].
Myron Mychal
star...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Myron Mychal:
>
> against that rat b**tard for doing this to you and GETTING AWAY WITH IT! Mr.
> Schneider - children in kindergarten playing cops and robbers have more
> etiquette and sportsmanship than you do for pulling this baby-whining off.>>
>
> What does he care?? It's dollars and cents and winning at all cost to him.
> What does he care what you think???
>
> Unless you're willing to become a judge and really throw the hammer down...
>
> *shows DCI Judge card* And I'm going to New York...
As a matter of fact
*showing application fee and request for Judge Certification*
Yes - I am going to work on becoming a Judge.
> That's a good question. One answer that I have surmised is that they don't
> want to lose this top echelon of players at all -- and are afraid if someone
> actually enforces rules of common sense, that these people will leave the
> sport and no one will fill the void honorably.
Well - a lot of people who are not professionals actually BUY their cards instead
of winning them. So where does WotC make their business? From guys like me who
buy a box of Stronghold or PT winners that always win their cards?
> Become a judge. Work up on the rules and become a judge. Become one that
> people like them don't want to see at tournaments.
I am - I am studying D'Angelo's and talking to the level 3 judges in my area.
And I hope I can become a level high enough to watch a match like this take
place, and insure that honesty and fair play become the norm.
> <<Hey - I could care DIDDLY about someone's name. GOod magic players with a
> rep? Fine - so be it. You cheat? I don't care if your name is Mahatma
> Ghandi - you CHEATED. You BROKE THE RULES. No special treatments for you.
> Nada - zip - zilch! Take your cards, go home and do not come back here
> anymore and wear this sign: 'Does not play well with others'>>
>
> And he'll tell you to fuck off when he's cashing his check for $25 thou.
True . . . but at least he can't buy dignity and honor with his 25 grand.
> Look what had to happen to ban Tyson, though...
>
> I mean, this guy was INSANE...
Maybe we can coax Mike Long to take a nibble out of Justice's ear . . .
> <<*bring tape recorder, camcorder and Swiss-precision stop watches to each
> event*>>
>
> You may need that...
>
> <<Gee . . . playing Magic against the "pros" is soooo much fun!>>
>
> You expected otherwise with $150K on the table??
>
> It ain't fun... It's a professional sport.
Yeah - I think I'll go back to teaching kids how to play with Thallid decks . . .
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
sagrillo at tiac.net writes:
> While we all may believe it is likely she played at a normal
>speed (where Justic could easily have jumped in but did not)--and
>simply did not announce something like "we are entering main phase
>now, any objections. Hmm, Any objections? Is it ok to move to the
>next itty bitty phase now?" so that Justin could SAY he didn't have
>time (once he knew he could save himself by backing up)...while we all
>may believe it, it is hard to prove.
>
> That's why cheaters are getting away with so much...it is hard to
>prove many weren't honest mistakes. You just accidentally put all the
>lands in your deck backwards. You just accidentally .... it goes on
>and on.
That's an excellent point. Magic really isn't the best game for high
stakes tournament play is about what it comes down to.
Fred
GHPOOBAH2
I think that any player who recieves a certain number of warnings should be
banned from pro tour events for a certain period. People who continually are
accused of cheating shoule have a judge assigned to them throughout the
competition. Also I think a system of fines for warnings would not be in
appropriate. Perhaps $25 for the first and $50 for the second and each
succeding warning. I have met Melissa Lang and watched her play and it is my
opinion that she was in the right in Atlanta.
Michael Bahr
ODariani wrote:
>
> > I've actually considered bringing my camcorder to PTQs. I wonder if the
> >head judge would approve.
> >
> >
> is scouting. if the tape was in the hands of the judge between rounds, you
> might be given an exception, if you make a good case for it.
I meant something along the lines of having it set up over my shoulder,
so it could watch my opponent for the duration of the match. If I win
the tourney or gain a slot or whatever, no problems. But if I lose and
drop, I'd watch to see just how "valid" my loss *was*. The judge can
have the tape between rounds if he wants it... it's not like I'd have a
portable TV with me to watch it on or anything, and those little
viewfinders wouldn't cut it. :)
See, I suggested once to Mr. Adkison that they should hold high-stakes
tourneys at casinos, where there is already heavy anti-cheat apparatus
in place. However his response, which IS valid and reasonable even if I
disagree with it, was that Magic wasn't meant to have the image of
gambling associated with it anymore (hence no more ante cards). The
problem with that, is that the Pro Tour's high prizes already make it as
much a gamble as it ever could be.
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
ghpo...@aol.com (GHPOOBAH2) writes:
The trouble is, there's one type of warning that you can get that may be
outside of your personal control: "disagreeing about reality". If you
sit down at a tournament and start playing the first game of the first
match with your opponent and halfway though it he suddenly adds 5 life
to his total (assuming the cards in your hands, in the graveyard, and on
table don't necessarily disprove this) and insists that _his_ total is
the correct one, you have two choices: accept it (and any other claim he
chooses to make that you can't disprove to a judge) or take a "disagreement
on reality" warning. So if your opponent _knows_ you have some number of
warnings and he doesn't, he could theorectically blackmail you into
letting him have game advantages.
Also, there's no way for the DCI to absolutely enforce fines.
Fred
David J. Low
star...@hotmail.com writes:
[variety of other authors, attributions lost in the shuffle :-(]
>>> And he'll tell you to fuck off when he's cashing his check for $25 thou.
>>
>>True . . . but at least he can't buy dignity and honor with his 25 grand.
>
>bragging rights -- dignity and honor don't buy him the plane ticket to the
>next Pro Tour. Dignity and honor are foreign concepts to a person who
>knows that they don't do squat! The be all and end all is the money. That's
>_IT_!!!!!!
But Mike - you've been telling me elsewhere that money buys legitimacy
:-) If he has the $25k, then it would appear from that approach that
he has bought himself and his actions some legitimacy, which would make
it hard for you to gainsay such a person :-/
And yes, I did figure you were being just a tad sarcastic with the
above - weren't you?! :-)
>And when you realize that mindset, you realize the only way to deal with them
>is reach into their grubby little pockets and yank it out as hard as possible.
If you think keeping already-Q'd players out of PTQs will be hard,
just imagine how you'd actually go about enforcing fines :-)
Particularly with the USA's quaint legal system.... :-/
Regards,
David.
--
{ David J. Low | d-...@adfa.oz.au }
{ School of Physics, University College | www.kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~dlow }
{ Australian Defence Force Academy | }
{ Canberra, ACT 2600, AUSTRALIA | "Advice is a kind of nostalgia" }
Talvin69
>
>> 2) After Melissa Lang Rolling Thunders Justin Schneider to death by using
>> a Manakin, Schneider claims he never got a chance to do things during
>> upkeep, so he makes Lang go back to upkeep and double Diabolic Edicts her,
>> killing the manakin. Lang is so stunned she doesn't make an effective
>> case to the judge, and Schneider ends up winning the match. Lang ends up
>> in tears and Schneider is booed by the crowd when he collects his reward
>> money.
>
>This is __WRONG__!!!!
>
>Schneider should be DQ'ed, and this kind of thing really should be sent to
>the
>DCI with retroactive results. This is __STUPID__!!!!
>
>You allow this -- you might as well allow a person to go back multiple turns
>too, while you're at it.
>
>I'm sorry, but that one is wrong.
As sketch as this is the judge made the right call. if melissa never gave
justin the opportunity for fats effects it is correct. Admittedly there is no
fucking way in hell schneider would have edicted without the knowledge of the
thunder, but under the rules melissa was playing too fast. It's more of a
problem with the rules than anything else. (i'm not defending justin just
being rational, i think that was a really sleazy thing to do)
T.J. Xenos
ICP "Carnival Christmas"-Already Out!
"Where'd you get that costume young man?" "My mom made it for me. Sieg Heil!
SEIG HEIL!!"
<<Freeze, dirtbag! This is a net.cop bust!
*Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do...*>>
star...@hotmail.com
In article <199804031632...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
odar...@aol.com (ODariani) wrote:
> everything i've read (read, not firsthand knowledge) says there was time
> between drawing her card and playing the thunder. besides, as any good
player
> knows, if you want to do something during the upkeep, as soon as they reach
for
> the card, say so. reaching to draw is a silent signal that you are entering
a
> phase, like picking up a thawing glaciers signals the end of your turn.
Right. There's a problem, though:
Unless the judge is watching it, there's no way he can know how much time
passed. And, at least as far as the situation is concerned, there's little
defense [not that it would've stopped me from trying to get Donais in on this
as a spectator had I attended] to go to the people who were spectators at the
match and ask them.
Without defense from Lang, the judge concluded that Schneider was within his
bounds -- does anyone realize how ridiculous that is -- and a __GRAND PRIX__,
no less!!!!!!
> the way this looks, on paper anyway, is very underhanded. if schneider
wanted
> to double edict during the upkeep, he would have the second melissa reached
for
> a card. of course he didn't want to. why would he, in the middle of a
> standoff, just decide to double edict? unless it gave him an offensive
> benefit, there is no reason.
That's where I can't believe he got away with it.
First, this means Lang has now played two cards illegally -- and, technically,
should be penalized for doing that. This would _FORCE_ Donais to become
involved, since it would be, at the least, a warnable foul if not a game-loss
then and there.
Second, if he's allowed to do this, he was only able to do it after he knew
that there was now sufficient mana, and the card, to kill him. In sealed,
that's *LUDICROUS*! That would be like someone holding up a white-board
behind Lang saying "SHE'S GOT THE THUNDER!!!"
So, in no uncertain terms, the only correct call is to toss Schneider. That's
attempting to manipulate the results of a completed game, and that's
disqualifiable. That he got away with it only makes me wonder what kind of
environment people are going to step into at PT-NY.
It's time, especially under the conditions, for judges to stop giving the
benefit of the doubt to the players. I mean, Schneider made the challenge --
make him prove that Lang went too fast. (HAHA -- you couldn't even get proof
she went too slow...)
> of course, living in virginia, i get my share of firsthand "why i hate mike
> long and justing schneider" stories. i'll just add this to the scrapbook.
I'm wondering if I should come down to Virginia, if you'd let me judge some
sanctioned tournaments down there. We'll see how good they really are at
getting away with stuff.
> its only hard because they make it hard to prove. that's why people who
make
> honest mistakes are more severly penalized than people outirght cheating.
> tommi hovi gets caught because all his islands "look alike." what is his
> penalty? game loss. he didn't even lose because the cards were marked.
The deck was mint and sleeved. Donais said this on the cybercast PTLA page.
That, and the fact that the situation was only brought to attention after a
Lobotomy, leads me to believe the cards were in opaque sleeves. If not, he
should've been tossed.
That said, a DQ would be a defensible position anyway. Yes, the cards are
mint and sleeved, but what happened to the rule of "a deck illegal outside the
sleeves is still illegal within them"? What happened to the idea of DQ'ing a
player for one stock type of land with another stock type of spells??
If I am asked to judge at PTNY -- in ANY capacity [which, for some reason, my
opinions and judge level will make me doubt that they'd let me] -- I do plan
to sit down with Jeff, if I can, and ask some of these questions.
> he lost because he could not replace them "in a timely fashion." i recieved
a
> warning at a sealed deck ptq because my deck's registerer didn't write down
a
> grave servitude.
The call is technically correct. You must ensure that the deck that you
received is correctly recorded in the time period of deck construction.
Turning in your decklist is a tacit approval of that taking place.
> if he hadn't written down two more cards, i'd have been dqed.
Actually, one more may have been sufficient. If they group it all into one
foul, then no. But if each one is a separate foul, the second one is a
duplicate foul, a double, and you and the other person are both gone [under
the scenario]. The problem is, if you don't find out about that til after the
tournament starts, you're stuck.
> people don't cheat in obvious ways anymore, its all bending the rules now.
> going back phases, laying extra lands, things like that. they're all things
> you only recieve a warning for doing... the risk isn't great, so what
deterrant
> is there?
None. The deterrent is in the judges' hands. That's why I almost pray for a
shot to look the big boys over in NYC. I can't say I can catch everything 400
players do, but I will definitely go in there with more than a healthy
skepticism.
I will go in with the idea of implied intent to cheat, with the environment
the PT has created in the past.
> personally, i think a professional fine system for money events should be
used.
Unenforceable. And, even if it were, the fines wouldn't amount to much there
either -- they don't in most other professional sports.
What I was meaning, more, by yanking it out of their pockets is to be much
more willing to administer game and match losses than appears to be the case.
> that would stop cheating quickly, especially is the judges were given more
> room to find and punish cheaters. when everyone that saw the match saw a
rat,
> why wasn't schneider refuted?
Because the spectators have little to no authority to do so.
> now, if he were fined 2000$ and banned from the pt for a year, he wouldn't
do
> that again.
No, he'd probably just go on a campaign to bring the PT down.
> i remember a "long" time ago, when "someone" was ejected from a type I
> tournament in the finals for playing all alpha land and non alpha cards.
Ah ah ah...
Stop. That's a different rule entirely. There was an "Alpha rule" in the
Floor Rules that specifically stated that the only type of cards that could be
used in a deck with Alpha cards were Alpha cards.
> that's the same as playing marked islands... why wasn't hovi dqed as well?
If he was playing with clear sleeves, I have no argument.
There's enough sophistication among Pro Magic players to use that kind of
thing to their advantage.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <199804031634...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
odar...@aol.com (ODariani) wrote:
>
> > I've actually considered bringing my camcorder to PTQs. I wonder if
the
> >head judge would approve.
> >
> >
> i don't think you'd get away with that... its too close to "notetaking,"
which
> is scouting. if the tape was in the hands of the judge between rounds, you
> might be given an exception, if you make a good case for it.
I'm almost thinking he was going to do this as a judge...
Tip for the day: It is NOT illegal, NOT considered notetaking, and NOT
considered scouting for a player using a written life total to specifically
state on that written record what did damage or added life to each player's
total. [Dan Gray -- DCIJUDGE-L netrep]
Anything more than that [just what did damage or added life], probably would
be.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <fred_sXYXY...@netcom.com>,
fred_...@netcom.com (Frederick Scott) wrote:
> That's an excellent point. Magic really isn't the best game for high
> stakes tournament play is about what it comes down to.
At that point, one has to begin to wonder if the correct solution would be to
end the Pro Tour completely...
Maybe go back to the days when the World Championships [during Revised] were
played for two sealed boxes of Arabians.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <199804032052...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ghpo...@aol.com (GHPOOBAH2) wrote:
>
> I think that any player who recieves a certain number of warnings should be
> banned from pro tour events for a certain period. People who continually are
> accused of cheating shoule have a judge assigned to them throughout the
> competition. Also I think a system of fines for warnings would not be in
> appropriate. Perhaps $25 for the first and $50 for the second and each
> succeding warning. I have met Melissa Lang and watched her play and it is my
> opinion that she was in the right in Atlanta.
Here would be my policy:
Similar to yellow cards in soccer:
4-5 warnings over a course of one year in any class A, B, or C tournament,
and, after that tournament where the limit is reached, you are barred from the
remainder of this and the next PTQ and PT cycle...
For example, let's assume that Tony Short [fictional player, I don't want all
the Tony Shorts of the world to e-mail me in disgust... :)] accumulates 1
warning in a qualifier in Austin, TX, for Chicago, 1 more in Dallas, 1 more in
PT-Chicago, and then 2 in Phoenix for PT-[European site]...
At that point, he's banned from all title events and qualifiers for
PT-[European site] plus the next one, which would be PTLA '99, by my guess of
the calendar. That means only Class D's for him until qualifiers for PTNY
'99, if the same calendar is used as this season.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <3525CF...@goodnet.com>,
dur...@goodnet.com wrote:
> See, I suggested once to Mr. Adkison that they should hold high-stakes
> tourneys at casinos, where there is already heavy anti-cheat apparatus
> in place. However his response, which IS valid and reasonable even if I
> disagree with it, was that Magic wasn't meant to have the image of
> gambling associated with it anymore (hence no more ante cards). The
> problem with that, is that the Pro Tour's high prizes already make it as
> much a gamble as it ever could be.
If they don't want that image, the Pro Tour should cease to exist. There's
too much chicanery going on that makes it seem like the seamy underside of
gambling [card counting, deck stacking, card marking, etc. etc. etc.] to make
anyone with a rational mind believe that that image does not already exist.
Especially with the informal ante matches which often take place.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <6g4cai$lk6$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>,
d...@cyclone.maths.monash.edu.au (David J. Low) wrote:
>
> star...@hotmail.com writes:
> >He doesn't want your dignity and honor. Dignity and honor don't give him
> >bragging rights -- dignity and honor don't buy him the plane ticket to the
> >next Pro Tour. Dignity and honor are foreign concepts to a person who
> >knows that they don't do squat! The be all and end all is the money.
That's
> >_IT_!!!!!!
>
> But Mike - you've been telling me elsewhere that money buys legitimacy
> :-) If he has the $25k, then it would appear from that approach that
> he has bought himself and his actions some legitimacy, which would make
> it hard for you to gainsay such a person :-/
I may be falling victim to a small difference of variants of English, but what
is "gainsaying" a person...
The money does buy legitimacy -- in the public's eyes, in WotC's, and in the
player's eyes. Given that many Americans [much less many foreign players]
don't make $25,000 a *year*, what loss is a little honor to a person who will
gain so much more [in his opinion and that of a whole lot of other people] in
the monetary gain??
> And yes, I did figure you were being just a tad sarcastic with the
> above - weren't you?! :-)
No. I'm being fully serious.
A player like Schneider could care less if he physically humiliates his
opponent if he wins the money for doing so.
> >And when you realize that mindset, you realize the only way to deal with
them
> >is reach into their grubby little pockets and yank it out as hard as
possible.
>
> If you think keeping already-Q'd players out of PTQs will be hard,
> just imagine how you'd actually go about enforcing fines :-)
Not what I was referring to.
I was meaning game losses or match losses --> lower placing in the tournament
[if they aren't tossed at the outset] --> less money [or no money!] in their
pockets.
And with the USA's "quaint legal system", you have to figure that lawsuits
against the DCI are almost inevitable with this kind of an environment anyway.
Red Right Hand
In article <3525CF...@goodnet.com>,
Michael Bahr <dur...@goodnet.com> wrote:
>
> See, I suggested once to Mr. Adkison that they should hold high-stakes
>tourneys at casinos, where there is already heavy anti-cheat apparatus
>in place.
And a hammer and a vice in the back room...
Oops, neither of them are T2 legal anymore... :)
--
-----
Hey, this national security stuff boring you?
Michael Bahr
star...@hotmail.com wrote:
> If they don't want that image, the Pro Tour should cease to exist. There's
> too much chicanery going on that makes it seem like the seamy underside of
> gambling [card counting, deck stacking, card marking, etc. etc. etc.] to make
> anyone with a rational mind believe that that image does not already exist.
>
> Especially with the informal ante matches which often take place.
I can see why it cannot be their official position anymore. Magic is
being introduced into a number of countries where gambling of any sort
is illegal. I mean, the local Gameworks explicitly forbids gambling on
games, but that doesn't prevent a $20 or more changing hands over every
single game of Street Fighter that goes on there, and they're not about
to kick the players out because the hardcore players provide the revenue
base.
Daniele Monterisi
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:05:56 -0600, star...@hotmail.com wrote:
Lots of arguments snipped...
><<Gee . . . playing Magic against the "pros" is soooo much fun!>>
>
>You expected otherwise with $150K on the table??
>
>It ain't fun... It's a professional sport.
Every professional sport I know of has a judge for _each_ game.
So if they want to put MtG at that level they'll also have to put a
"referee" judging each match.
I know it's easier said than done, but it is less and less possible to
let players judge duels by themselves.
Thanks,
bye
Daniele
Daniele Monterisi
Ranked #10 at M:tG Italian Nationals 1997
dmo...@tin.it
Visit my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4047/index.html
--- For when the Great One Scorer comes to write against your name ---
--- He marks not if you won or lost, but how you played the game ---
Minister of Propaganda
> that's the same as playing marked islands... why wasn't hovi dqed as well?
>
Obviously, Tommi is a witch, and we should burn him at the stake! Children are
dying here in the village, and that means witchcraft! Tommi doesn't talk much, and
we all know that people who don't talk much are witches! Yeah, and he's blonde!
Blondes are well known to be witches! Burn, burn, burn!
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?"
(Hovi was playing in sleeves. Olle made him desleeve. Tommi had foreign Tempest
land, and it did look a bit different... if you made him desleeve... then
carefully scanned his land for discrepancies.)
bishop
Pete Thompson
talv...@aol.com (Talvin69) wrote:
>As sketch as this is the judge made the right call. if melissa never gave
>justin the opportunity for fats effects it is correct. Admittedly there is no
>fucking way in hell schneider would have edicted without the knowledge of the
>thunder, but under the rules melissa was playing too fast. It's more of a
>problem with the rules than anything else. (i'm not defending justin just
>being rational, i think that was a really sleazy thing to do)
Ummm no. Let's go over a few simple basics shall we?
Upkeep comes before the draw phase correct?
When you draw a card, it means your upkeep phase is over, correct?
Are you seriously trying to say that Melissa had somehow
managed to draw a card AND looked at it AND tapped her
manakin AND casted the rolling fireball all before Schneider
could say "hold it, I needed to do something in your upkeep"?
If I could move as fast as she could, I'd be awesome at
video games!
Drawing a card is a visual cue that the upkeep is over. If Schneider
remains silent, then that means he's accepted that her upkeep
was over. Instead, he chose to wait while she drew a card, looked
at it, casted the spell and only THEN did he say anything.
If this ruling was allowed, then what's stopping me from backing
you up to your PREVIOUS turn because I didn't do anything
during your discard phase? (Yes this would mean backtracking
through my last turn too).
star...@hotmail.com
In article <199804041715...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
talv...@aol.com (Talvin69) wrote:
> As sketch as this is the judge made the right call. if melissa never gave
> justin the opportunity for fast effects it is correct.
Now understand what penalty would have to be given then -- Lang, by the nature
that this is an attempt to win the game outside the rules, would have to be
given a warning herself, and I would not be so inclined not to rule it [if I
could prove Lang so fouled] double warning-loss of game.
Understand the scenario: Lang is attempting to win the game -- that makes it
a much more serious foul if she speeds through her upkeep and her draw to kill
Schneider.
Now, that said, I still don't agree with the call, for I believe there's
another penalty that has to be given under this call if it is the way that the
judge ruled it.
> Admittedly there is no
> fucking way in hell schneider would have edicted without the knowledge of
the
> thunder, but under the rules melissa was playing too fast.
Hence, she draws a card illegally [a cheating foul as defined by the rules]
and plays two cards illegally as well [two more cheating fouls]. She's,
actually, lucky that the judge didn't decide to attempt to disqualify her on
the spot. Of course, that would've forced Jeff Donais into the situation, and
then the judge can be summarily flogged. :)
If we are to believe the judge, what Lang has done falls under Cheating.
> It's more of a
> problem with the rules than anything else. (i'm not defending justin just
> being rational, i think that was a really sleazy thing to do)
Rationality, though, would have to extend to a more severe penalty to _Lang_
than was given. I don't know if I can go that far.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <352753...@goodnet.com>,
dur...@goodnet.com wrote:
> I can see why it cannot be their official position anymore. Magic is
> being introduced into a number of countries where gambling of any sort
> is illegal. I mean, the local Gameworks explicitly forbids gambling on
> games, but that doesn't prevent a $20 or more changing hands over every
> single game of Street Fighter that goes on there, and they're not about
> to kick the players out because the hardcore players provide the revenue
> base.
But, given that, is the enterprise credible?
Is the arcade doing credible business at that point?
Extend the question to the DCI.
GHPOOBAH2
totally agree. Melissa should have won that game.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <3528706C...@chr.adelphia.net>,
Minister of Propaganda <mini...@chr.adelphia.net> wrote:
> (Hovi was playing in sleeves. Olle made him desleeve. Tommi had foreign
Tempest
> land, and it did look a bit different... if you made him desleeve... then
> carefully scanned his land for discrepancies.)
As did Jeff Donais.
The problem is, they were able to fully separate. At that point, the rule is
"a deck illegal outside the sleeves is still illegal within them". A DQ is
QUITE the defensible position, with the only reasonable justification being
opaque sleeves.
Otherwise, Hovi should've been sent off to dry land.
star...@hotmail.com
In article <6ganpr$o08$1...@usenet47.supernews.com>,
petert...@somewhere.com (Pete Thompson) wrote:
> Ummm no. Let's go over a few simple basics shall we?
>
> Upkeep comes before the draw phase correct?
>
> When you draw a card, it means your upkeep phase is over, correct?
>
> Are you seriously trying to say that Melissa had somehow
> managed to draw a card AND looked at it AND tapped her
> manakin AND casted the rolling fireball all before Schneider
> could say "hold it, I needed to do something in your upkeep"?
> If I could move as fast as she could, I'd be awesome at
> video games!
Not only that, but you do realize that that is probably a double-warnable
offense, at the very least, and probably would fall under the jurisdiction of
a triple warning and automatic disqualification from the event and a DCI
investigation of Lang's conduct that turn.
> Drawing a card is a visual cue that the upkeep is over. If Schneider
> remains silent, then that means he's accepted that her upkeep
> was over.
Agreed. (See upkeep foul determinations.)
> If this ruling was allowed, then what's stopping me from backing
> you up to your PREVIOUS turn because I didn't do anything
> during your discard phase? (Yes this would mean backtracking
> through my last turn too).
Apparently, nothing. As I've been getting told, that's happened.
Michael A. Arsollon
Daniele Monterisi wrote:
>stuff cut out
>
> Every professional sport I know of has a judge for _each_ game.
> So if they want to put MtG at that level they'll also have to put a
> "referee" judging each match.
> I know it's easier said than done, but it is less and less possible to
> let players judge duels by themselves.
>
> Thanks,
> bye
> Daniele
>
That's an interesting idea but would be hard to monitor. What's to stop
situations in which a referee is friends with one of the competitors(and
is biased because of this).
Still, if the DCI did want to have referees for each match I suppose it
could allow Arena Judges to serve as the referees.
Thanks for reading,
Michael
Michael A. Arsollon
EBS 110277
>talv...@aol.com (Talvin69) wrote:
>
>>As sketch as this is the judge made the right call. if melissa never gave
>>justin the opportunity for fats effects it is correct. Admittedly there is
>no
>>fucking way in hell schneider would have edicted without the knowledge of
>the
>>thunder, but under the rules melissa was playing too fast. It's more of a
>>problem with the rules than anything else. (i'm not defending justin just
>>being rational, i think that was a really sleazy thing to do)
>
>Ummm no. Let's go over a few simple basics shall we?
>
>Upkeep comes before the draw phase correct?
Well, yes, but as somebody else pointed out, he could very well have made her
go back to just after she drew the card in her Draw phase (when it *IS* leagal
to play fast effects).
>When you draw a card, it means your upkeep phase is over, correct?
>
>Are you seriously trying to say that Melissa had somehow
>managed to draw a card AND looked at it AND tapped her
>manakin AND casted the rolling fireball all before Schneider
>could say "hold it, I needed to do something in your upkeep"?
>If I could move as fast as she could, I'd be awesome at
>video games!
No, but it is concievable that she drew her card then immediately tapped the
manakin, and cast the spell before he could tell her to stop durring the draw
phase (I'm not saying that is what happened, just that it's concievable).
>Drawing a card is a visual cue that the upkeep is over. If Schneider
>remains silent, then that means he's accepted that her upkeep
>was over. Instead, he chose to wait while she drew a card, looked
>at it, casted the spell and only THEN did he say anything.
True, but he still has a chance to use fast effects after she draws a card but
before she starts her main phase...
>If this ruling was allowed, then what's stopping me from backing
>you up to your PREVIOUS turn because I didn't do anything
>during your discard phase? (Yes this would mean backtracking
>through my last turn too).
Mind you, I'm discusted by these reports. In fact, sh*t like this is why I
stopped playing Magic over 2 years ago. Now the only reason why I'm even
checking out this newsgroup is because of the PC game (which I like allot).
Eric Smith
EBS1...@aol.com
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.
Help! The paranoids are out to get me!
An honest politician is one who stays bought.
A wise man knows everything, a shrewd one, everybody.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Pete Thompson
ebs1...@aol.com (EBS 110277) wrote:
>>Upkeep comes before the draw phase correct?
>Well, yes, but as somebody else pointed out, he could very well have made her
>go back to just after she drew the card in her Draw phase (when it *IS* leagal
>to play fast effects).
But he didn't. That's the whole problem. That's only a hypothetical
situation which never happened.
>No, but it is concievable that she drew her card then immediately tapped the
>manakin, and cast the spell before he could tell her to stop durring the draw
>phase (I'm not saying that is what happened, just that it's concievable).
And as a witness pointed out, this is not the case.
>True, but he still has a chance to use fast effects after she draws a card but
>before she starts her main phase...
But this isn't what happened. So what's your point?
Jason Carl
In article <35248831...@mediaone.net>, fredspencer
<freds...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> After reading all of these synopsis' I've decided that an e-mail sent by all
> who feel "discouraged" by practices like these are do in the wizards and DCI
> mail boxes. Maybe if they get enough they might acknoledge the problem. If
> they ignore it their mail servers will crash from ignored mail.
Please send any comments, suggestions or opinions to:
d...@wizards.com, or
vin...@wizards.com (matters requiring the attention of the DCI Policy
Director), or
dcij...@wizards.com (matters regarding judges and the Judge Certification
Program).
We are always ready to listen (we never stopped, actually)!
Sincerely yours,
Jason Carl
DCI Policy Director
Wizards of the Coast
(425) 204-7301
vin...@wizards.com
GHPOOBAH2
Did you happen to read the 200+ odd posts against Justins cheating tactics?? I
go all over the country as a dealer and the general consensus is hes a cheat.
NewbyMtG
>As sketch as this is the judge made the right call. if melissa never gave
>justin the opportunity for fats effects it is correct. Admittedly there is
>no
>fucking way in hell schneider would have edicted without the knowledge of the
>thunder, but under the rules melissa was playing too fast. It's more of a
>problem with the rules than anything else. (i'm not defending justin just
>being rational, i think that was a really sleazy thing to do)
There is no possible way that could have been the correct call. People
have been describing the series of steps, leaving out the fact that she had
also played a land. She was clearly well into the main phase, having taken at
least three actions within the main phase:
1) Laying a land
2) Tapping all lands and the Manakin for mana
3) Declaring the sorcery
Only if Schneider had called the judge after step 1 could there be any
justification for the judge even to back her into the draw phase. Backing her
all the way into her upkeep was a clear abuse of authority by the judge. I
don't know his name, but I'm told he is a Tongo Nation wanna-be, and a friend
of Schneider. Schneider obviously is an obnoxious little twerp who should have
been DQed for unsportsmanlike behavior, and the judge involved should be
stripped of his certification.
Kevin P. Kooiker
DCI 146650
GHPOOBAH2
Agreed.
Canticle
*shrug*
I've played against Melissa before, and while I find her style of play
to be less than fun to compete against as she tends to speed through
things before giving her opponent a chance to react (I was in a Sealed
Deck Qualifier against her...I'd lost the first match because in my
previous game, my opponent kept the Breezekeeper he'd controlled from
me, and I was deck checked *shrug*). In my second game against her, I
had wanted to do something during her upkeep, but by the time I'd looked
over the situation, she'd drawn a card and started into her Main Phase.
I said I wanted to do something during her upkeep, and I brought a judge
over. The judge had her place the drawn card back on the deck (she had
one card in hand, mind you, so it was easy enough to do.
What had I wanted to do during her upkeep? Kill her :).
Without being there, however, nobody can accurately say what took place.
Having seen her in a few tournaments, I'd err on the side of caution and
perhaps side with the judges ruling, but hey, I wasn't there.
Jeff-boy
MAGIC0825
hey there, well, i'm just trying to get some publicity with my magic page so I
am emailing everyone in the newsgroups. Please check out my magic page (its
good; Dojo put a link to it ok?):
http://members.aol.com/MAGIC0825/index.html
(its not the typical lame AOL page)
tim (magi...@aol.com)
star...@hotmail.com
In article <3531915F...@escape.ca>,
Canticle <Cant...@escape.ca> wrote:
>
> *shrug*
>
> I've played against Melissa before, and while I find her style of play
> to be less than fun to compete against as she tends to speed through
> things before giving her opponent a chance to react (I was in a Sealed
> Deck Qualifier against her...I'd lost the first match because in my
> previous game, my opponent kept the Breezekeeper he'd controlled from
> me, and I was deck checked *shrug*). In my second game against her, I
> had wanted to do something during her upkeep, but by the time I'd looked
> over the situation, she'd drawn a card and started into her Main Phase.
> I said I wanted to do something during her upkeep, and I brought a judge
> over. The judge had her place the drawn card back on the deck (she had
> one card in hand, mind you, so it was easy enough to do.
Warning for illegal draw right off the bat.
> Without being there, however, nobody can accurately say what took place.
> Having seen her in a few tournaments, I'd err on the side of caution and
> perhaps side with the judges ruling, but hey, I wasn't there.
But do you see why I believe that, at that point, the game must be awarded to
Schneider if the ruling is correct???