expansion ideas
Jan Willem Wijsman
new ideas on the game for future expansions. Apart from new clans, or
ones that haven't been used yet from white wolf, or additional cards for
clans like ravnos or assamite, I haven't seen anything really new.
I don't mean completely new ofcourse, but something I haven't mentioned
in the above.
Personally, I'd like to see some more of the lupines. Not simply as
allys, but more as a type of clan, or group. The person playing the
lupines would not be a Methuselah, but an old lupine himself, with
toughness points instead of blood counters.
The lupine-minions would be partly human, so I was thinking perhaps
somekind of 'flip-over' card with counters to indicate when the lupine,
or human is about to shapeshift. Additional rules have to be thougth up
ofcourse, but I think it could be fun.
carpe noctem,
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
Ahem, you know that there is a game called "rage" that does (almost) exactly
what you propose?
IMO, introducing a new "faction" is a bad thing. The mechanis of VTES are
simply not suitable for that kind of thing.
Carl
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Vince Johnson
>new ideas on the game for future expansions. Apart from new clans, or
>ones that haven't been used yet from white wolf, or additional cards for
>clans like ravnos or assamite, I haven't seen anything really new.
>I don't mean completely new ofcourse, but something I haven't mentioned
>in the above.
>Personally, I'd like to see some more of the lupines. Not simply as
>allys, but more as a type of clan, or group. The person playing the
>lupines would not be a Methuselah, but an old lupine himself, with
>toughness points instead of blood counters.
This is a VAMPIRE game.... not Werewolf... there's already a relatively
balanced representation of the other WW games systems in V:tES and there
doesn't need to be anymore (I think 3 garou in the game is enough since for
the most part the Kindred spend more time dodging them than making them
allies)
>The lupine-minions would be partly human, so I was thinking perhaps
>somekind of 'flip-over' card with counters to indicate when the lupine,
>or human is about to shapeshift. Additional rules have to be thougth up
>ofcourse, but I think it could be fun.
>carpe noctem,
Ummm... go play Rage. You'll never find "flip-over" cards in this game
because it would give you a slight advantage of knowing where it's at.
You've even described most of Rage's system as it is, go play that if you're
so intent on having the all important garou.
Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all
likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't
need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards.
Vince
James Coupe
>Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all
>likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't
>need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards.
And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary)
employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large-
ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7b4acs$gre@simba>, Vince Johnson <john...@tcnj.edu> writes
> >Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all
> >likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't
> >need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards.
>
> And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary)
> employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large-
> ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores.
James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that
again, for the convenience of us all? :)
Furthermore, is this really confirmed?
Carl
(VEKN Prince of Vienna)
mboh...@shout.net
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at wrote:
> In article <n+h6nRAh...@obeah.demon.co.uk>,
> James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary)
> > employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large-
> > ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores.
>
> James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that
> again, for the convenience of us all? :)
> Furthermore, is this really confirmed?
Assuming James is correct, let's say there are 50 cards. Our first goal
has got to be flushing out the newer clans. The first place to do that
is with vampires:
3 Ravnos
3 Giovanni
5 Assamites
5 Followers of Set
5 Lasombra
5 Tzimisce
5 Malkavian Antitribu
3 City Gangrel Antitribu (Pro, Obf, Cel)
That's 34 cards there, leaving 16 of our 50. If you give each of the
unique disciplines of the above 2 new cards, you're down to 2 cards
remaining. With those two cards, I'd like to see something give a card
for joining a sect of choice (Declaration of Alignment equipment?) and
a card that gives some inter-sect interaction fun of some type.
As much as I like library cards, we really need to go with vampires
first. If I remember right, someone said that this is goign to be a
yearly type thing. So in 2000, maybe we can see a mini-expansion of
all library cards.
Mike
--
Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign
http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/
Vince Johnson
James Coupe <ve...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:n+h6nRAh...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
>In article <7b4acs$gre@simba>, Vince Johnson <john...@tcnj.edu> writes
>>Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all
>>likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't
>>need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of
cards.
>
>employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large-
>ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores.
>
Comparitive to other expansions that WotC releases for it's other games,
this is a promo or filler set, especially for Vampire. Not that I mind this
so much. I'm hoping though they realize that smaller, cheaper boxes and
sets, will probably influence more people to play. Also I was refering to
the rules system and they have not made significant rules changes to the
game except in the larger sets like V:tES and Sabbat releases.
I have been reading the posts, nothing is set in stone from everything I've
heard and there's a lot of time between now and the end of the year when
this expansion is supposed to be released. I've heard as large as 90 cards
in the set to as small as a 2 dozen(with the smaller end being highly
reinforced). They may even find, between now and then, that they want to
release a full expansion or even forget the idea all together, and they
don't have anything going to print as far as I know at this moment.
Vince
Marco
there are really enough library cards for choice. But to get new ideas for a
nice deck you are in need for a good and sufficient variety of Vampires!
This is especially true for the newest clans.
Regards, Marco.
Jasper Phillips
>3 Ravnos
>3 Giovanni
>5 Assamites
>5 Followers of Set
>5 Lasombra
>5 Tzimisce
>5 Malkavian Antitribu
>3 City Gangrel Antitribu (Pro, Obf, Cel)
>
>That's 34 cards there, leaving 16 of our 50. If you give each of the
That's exactly what we need. I hope the relavent people are listening.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
James Coupe
>James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that
>again, for the convenience of us all? :)
>Furthermore, is this really confirmed?
I'll dig out the post I wrote a while back but confirmed = no. The only
time it'll be confirmed one way or the other is when it's actually being
distributed.
But UK WotC/RPGA reps have said that it should be the same size as the
Spellfire one, which could not work at 20 cards, and 40-50 is more
likely.
It's also possibly being distributed in a three different boosters in
one box layout (eg 10 Netrunner boosters, 10 Spellfire, 10 V:TES)
And we're most probably talking about stores.
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
Right to the point. I hope the others will see it that way, too.
Carl
(VEKN Prince of Vienna)
PS: Marco, ist die e-mail adresse korrekt? Ich meine, ich habe versucht Dich
anzumailen, und hab nur eine Fehlermeldung bekommen. Meine ist
Carl.Pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com
lisa
<7bdcie$q2i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7b6hq1$nj6$1...@news.dnsg.net>,
> "Marco" <man...@primus-online.de> wrote:
>> I think a good expansion would be one with only or mainly vampires
because
>> there are really enough library cards for choice. But to get new ideas
for a
>> nice deck you are in need for a good and sufficient variety of Vampires!
>> This is especially true for the newest clans.
>
>Right to the point. I hope the others will see it that way, too.
>
>Carl
>(VEKN Prince of Vienna)
Yeah! New vampires (with reasonable blood points capacity: no more than 7)
that have nice game text would definately be a good addition to the game.
Some examples from existing vampires that have a good game text:
Lazar Dobrescu (Ravnos, cap. 3), as a D action he transfers a blood point
from a vampire in the prey's uncontrolled region to yours. :) That's good,
even in a Gangrel, Ventrue or any Fortitude deck.
Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, cap. 7), as a +1 stealth action that costs her
a blood point, she can replace a card from your hand to one from the ash
heap.
Let's Return to Innocence .... again? :)
------------------------------
Now, what I would like to see is the Talbot (Brujah?, Giovanni?
Nosferatu?...) from Talbot's Chainsaw!
Maybe in the game text of that vampire it could be written that: If Talbot
is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of
your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally.
Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's
Hand!
-1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is
doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes.
Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or
Setite action just played by him?
legb...@my-dejanews.com
A Gangrel, or possibly Gangrel antitribu, according to the Sabbat
Storyteller's book.
> Maybe in the game text of that vampire it could be written that: If Talbot
> is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of
> your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally.
Either that or may search your deck to find Talbot's chainsaw [text template
from Arms Dealer]. I think that would be better. The story-telling point of
the chainsaw is that Talbot went postal with it.
>
> Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's
> Hand!
> -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is
> doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes.
>
> Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or
> Setite action just played by him?
>
Or that adds a counter to any card requiring followers of Set or Serpentis.
But dream on on that one, soul-sister - you and i are DEFINITELY going to be
in a minority of 2 as regards the balance of that one!
Derek S. Ray
>> Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's
>> Hand!
>> -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is
>> doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes.
>>
>> Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or
>> Setite action just played by him?
>>
>
>Or that adds a counter to any card requiring followers of Set or Serpentis.
>But dream on on that one, soul-sister - you and i are DEFINITELY going to be
>in a minority of 2 as regards the balance of that one!
The weenie Embrace + 30 Corruption deck is pretty effective already,
even WITHOUT a 5-cap who can Embrace twice and then start Corrupting
for 2 each turn. =) He'd have to come without any Obfuscate, just as
a natural form of balance. =)
-- Derek
(replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)
Colin Gunning
A master card that allows you to play a unique MC that's already in
play.
Brujah retainer-The Cold Dawn
A MC that cancels a unique MC already in play ie:kinda like sudden
reverse that Millicent Smith after it's in play
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
> is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of
> your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally.
>
> Hand!
> -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is
> doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes.
>
> Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or
> Setite action just played by him?
Nice ideas. How about this
Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator
Ravnos, cap 4, CHI
Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand,
ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert
becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him.
I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks
all the other vampires. :)
Carl
(VEKN Prince of Vienna)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
James Coupe
writes
>Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator
>Ravnos, cap 4, CHI
>Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand,
>ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert
>becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him.
>
>I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks
>all the other vampires. :)
And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem
combos.
carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7bntdp$v97$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
> writes
> >Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator
> >Ravnos, cap 4, CHI
> >Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand,
> >ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert
> >becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him.
> >
> >I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks
> >all the other vampires. :)
>
> And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem
> combos.
I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every
possibility, but who can anyway? :)
In Herbert Schwedt's case, you save 2 pool when you bring him out, though
he wouldn't be at full capacity. He would then be cap.6 with either 2 skills
superior, or 1 sup. and 2 normal. If the new disciplines were in-clan, then
he would be overpriced for 1 or 2 points according to Sabbat template, and
2 points if they were out-of-clan. His biggest advantage is that you can
bring him for 4, where he is effectively a 6cap. But that's all, from
there on he is a bit weak. He has an edge against Banishments or Peace
of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only
has CHI and one other sup discipline?
Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would
always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You
have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage!
Another thing would be Mind Rape. You bring Herbert out (with DOM) and
in your next turn you rob a vampire (cause Herbert is 2 older than any other
vamp could be at this time). Additionally, Herbert has CHI, which has some
stealth. Nice combo, but worth the effort? I doubt it. Return to Innocence?
Hm, too low capacity as that it would pay off. ;)
Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would
be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :)
Post the deck then, please.
Thanks
Jasper Phillips
<carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com> wrote:
>
>I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every
>possibility, but who can anyway? :)
>
>In Herbert Schwedt's case, you save 2 pool when you bring him out, though
>he wouldn't be at full capacity. He would then be cap.6 with either 2 skills
>superior, or 1 sup. and 2 normal. If the new disciplines were in-clan, then
>he would be overpriced for 1 or 2 points according to Sabbat template, and
>2 points if they were out-of-clan. His biggest advantage is that you can
>bring him for 4, where he is effectively a 6cap. But that's all, from
>there on he is a bit weak. He has an edge against Banishments or Peace
>of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only
>has CHI and one other sup discipline?
Geez, talk about straw men. Yah, the vamp in question doesn't compare
well to 6 capacity vampires, ability wise -- but then again there aren't
many 4 capacity vampires that do! Now, back up, and compare him to most
4 capacity vampires. "Herbert" is definitly underpriced.
Derek S. Ray
wrote:
>> And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem
>> combos.
>
>I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every
>possibility, but who can anyway? :)
Heh. Since you automatically make him older when he comes out, a
crypt full of Herberts doesn't even require individual turns spent
putting Master cards on him. And since you can fetch them from the
ash heap, you never have to worry about it.
>of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only
>has CHI and one other sup discipline?
Hell yeah. Watch below.
>Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would
>always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You
>have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage!
No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger
"buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're
playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool.
even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you
successfully bleed for 12 each turn.
>Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would
>be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :)
>Post the deck then, please.
Right. Bring Herbie out. Slap Dominate and Fortitude on him - you
only need 1 card of each in your deck since you may search your
library. On turn two, he equips the Soul Gem of Etrius. Turn three
is where he really gets rolling. First thing you do is Sensory
Deprivation your prey's vampire. Use Fata Morgana to get the +1
stealth for it. If your prey has no vampires, hit your predator.
This leaves Herbie with 1 blood and tapped. Since he has Fortitude,
he now takes a Force of Will action to bleed. Modify with another
token Dominate card, and if anyone wants to block you, slap Daring the
Dawn on it (although the 2 agg from Force of Will is going to burn him
anyway, satisfying the Soul Gem's requirements.) Burn Herbie at the
conclusion of the action - bring out a new Herbie, who automatically
gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since
Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect,
I believe? Hmm. they might not. If that doesn't work, hafta come up
with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him.
But Fortitude and specifically Force of Will is ever so convenient for
causing agg damage to yourself if you need to burn a vampire...
Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this
deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10
Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same
way as Herbie.
carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com
proxy.airnews.net>,
lor...@nospam.nineball.org (Derek S. Ray) wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:29:20 GMT, carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com
> wrote:
>
> >> And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem
> >> combos.
> >
> >I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every
> >possibility, but who can anyway? :)
>
> Heh. Since you automatically make him older when he comes out, a
> crypt full of Herberts doesn't even require individual turns spent
> putting Master cards on him. And since you can fetch them from the
> ash heap, you never have to worry about it.
Ok, you have a point here. So would it be better to make him cap5 and get
only 1 skill card free, or to simply say that he can only take skill
cards from your library or hand?
>
> >of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only
> >has CHI and one other sup discipline?
>
> Hell yeah. Watch below.
>
> >Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would
> >always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You
> >have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage!
>
> No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger
> "buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're
> playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool.
> even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you
> successfully bleed for 12 each turn.
I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent
bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and
the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out
of the game, no matter what you do.
> >Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would
> >be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :)
> >Post the deck then, please.
>
> Right. Bring Herbie out. Slap Dominate and Fortitude on him - you
> only need 1 card of each in your deck since you may search your
> library. On turn two, he equips the Soul Gem of Etrius. Turn three
> is where he really gets rolling. First thing you do is Sensory
> Deprivation your prey's vampire. Use Fata Morgana to get the +1
> stealth for it. If your prey has no vampires, hit your predator.
> This leaves Herbie with 1 blood and tapped. Since he has Fortitude,
> he now takes a Force of Will action to bleed. Modify with another
> token Dominate card, and if anyone wants to block you, slap Daring the
> Dawn on it (although the 2 agg from Force of Will is going to burn him
> anyway, satisfying the Soul Gem's requirements.) Burn Herbie at the
> conclusion of the action - bring out a new Herbie, who automatically
> gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since
> Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect,
> I believe? Hmm. they might not.
I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively.
Right, LSJ?
> If that doesn't work, hafta come up
> with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him.
> But Fortitude and specifically Force of Will is ever so convenient for
> causing agg damage to yourself if you need to burn a vampire...
> Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this
> deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10
> Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same
> way as Herbie.
So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap?
Derek S. Ray
wrote:
>> >Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would
>> >always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You
>> >have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage!
>>
>> No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger
>> "buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're
>> playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool.
>> even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you
>> successfully bleed for 12 each turn.
>
>I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent
>bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and
>the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out
>of the game, no matter what you do.
Since Herbie has Dominate and comes out of your crypt untapped due to
the Soul Gem thingy, you may also use about 10 Deflections in your
deck, which even at the slow slow rate of one bounce per turn will put
a big crimp in any BIG-bleed deck's style, and also potentially move
Herbie's deck a lot faster. Bouncing one good bleed for 5 or 6 per
turn will make your predator pull his hair out and your prey want to
help pull your predator's hair out. Add 10 Wakes and Herbie can
potentially Deflect an awful lot - but you risk hand jamming on Wakes
since Herbie isn't going to be tapped much unless someone packs
Misdirections. (And he has to forgo some Sensory Deprivations if he
spends blood Deflecting, but at 3 blood he only has to play Force of
Will and Daring the Dawn to guarantee his own burning (1 blood to play
FoW, 2 agg from FoW, 2 agg from DtD - with only 2 blood left, he
burns.) Besides, I'll trade a Sense Dep for a bleed-my-prey-for-6
most days.)
>> gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since
>> Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect,
>> I believe? Hmm. they might not.
>
>I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively.
>Right, LSJ?
The Sensory Deprivation card reads "(S) As above, but a vampire may be
chosen; he or she does not untap during the untap phase as long as the
acting vampire remains in play." This wording is slightly ambiguous
since it doesn't use the more-useful template that it could: "Place
this card on that vampire. That vampire does not untap during the
untap phase. Burn this card if the acting vampire is removed from
play." I'd like to see it read "if the acting vampire leaves the
ready region", myself, but that's another story entirely ;)
Herbie definitely leaves play when he is burned from agg damage. I
think the real question is, is it the same Herbie who comes back, or
Herbie II: Electric Boogaloo? Other instances, I believe, have ruled
that it's a different vampire who comes back, so this would make that
trick useless. Bugger ;)
>> Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this
>> deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10
>> Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same
>> way as Herbie.
>
>So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap?
The problem is a 'build your own' vampire, really. Ian Forrestal has
a HIDEOUSLY overpowered special ability, but nobody really worries
about it too much because he costs 8 to bring out in the first place -
with no special help he usually will take 3 turns to bring out, and 22
pool is only 2 turns for a monster bleed deck. The natural
disadvantages of big vamps eventually catch up with him, making him
good, but not TOO good. Or at least I've never seen anyone
successfully abuse him yet, and someone in our group who shall remain
nameless but owns approx. 438 freak drives (i know you're reading
this, so :P to you) has been trying for quite some time... and while
he's produced effective decks, it's been nothing that anyone would
look at and go "oh, ghod, Ian is broken, he must be errata'd at once."
Herbie's cost of 4, though, qualifies him as a borderline weenie - max
of 2 turns to bring out and a 40% chance that you'll get him
immediately. Guaranteed to get him out before your predator can get
moving TOO fast. His access to superior Sensory Deprivation is pretty
scary in and of itself, and to permit essentially a free pick of any
two disciplines to best back up that card... ick. He'd be a fine
adjunct to a weenie deck - pack on enough Recruitments, and let Herbie
Sense Dep anything that looks like a problem, Restore himself
inbetween 'problems' (with superior FOR, gaining 3 blood to match the
cost of SD, and god forbid he should Force of Will and Regeneration
himself while in torpor, gaining 5 blood.).... Just icky. Salbatore
can't work that fast because he needs FOR cards and has to draw them
up, meaning you may hand jam on FOR cards. Although... hmm. weenie
horde bleed with Fortitude and a pile of Skin of Rock? (*ponders*)
nah. take too many skin of rocks to make them survive and if nobody
blocks you, hand jam.
carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com
Ian's ability is not overpowered. Believe me, during Sabbat playtesting
I tried again and again to break him; I didn't succeed. Initially he was
cap.7, after much arguing he was raised to 8. I think that's ok.
The natural
> disadvantages of big vamps eventually catch up with him, making him
> good, but not TOO good. Or at least I've never seen anyone
> successfully abuse him yet, and someone in our group who shall remain
> nameless but owns approx. 438 freak drives (i know you're reading
> this, so :P to you) has been trying for quite some time... and while
> he's produced effective decks, it's been nothing that anyone would
> look at and go "oh, ghod, Ian is broken, he must be errata'd at once."
>
> Herbie's cost of 4, though, qualifies him as a borderline weenie - max
> of 2 turns to bring out and a 40% chance that you'll get him
> immediately.
So should he be cap.5 ? Would it make any difference?
Or ani and chi instead of CHI?
> Guaranteed to get him out before your predator can get
> moving TOO fast. His access to superior Sensory Deprivation is pretty
> scary in and of itself, and to permit essentially a free pick of any
> two disciplines to best back up that card... ick.
Bah! I thought chimerstry is not a useful discipline? At least, that's
what most players say. Sensory deprivation is at 0 stealth. One Fata Morgana
won't do you much good. Chances that either your pred or prey play at least
a deck with *some* intercept are quite good. So Herbert won't bring Sens.
Depr. through all the time (if ever). Most people go to lengths trying
to kill vamps with CHI, just because of Sens.Depr., also your grand prey or
predator.
> He'd be a fine
> adjunct to a weenie deck - pack on enough Recruitments, and let Herbie
> Sense Dep anything that looks like a problem, Restore himself
> inbetween 'problems' (with superior FOR, gaining 3 blood to match the
> cost of SD, and god forbid he should Force of Will and Regeneration
> himself while in torpor, gaining 5 blood.).... Just icky. Salbatore
> can't work that fast because he needs FOR cards and has to draw them
> up, meaning you may hand jam on FOR cards. Although... hmm. weenie
> horde bleed with Fortitude and a pile of Skin of Rock? (*ponders*)
> nah. take too many skin of rocks to make them survive and if nobody
> blocks you, hand jam.
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> Ok, you have a point here. So would it be better to make him cap5 and get
> only 1 skill card free, or to simply say that he can only take skill
> cards from your library or hand?
*shrug* So it takes an Info Highway or a Dreams to get him out in one turn...
The extra blood could actually be a big advantage...the difference between
Conditioning and Bonding. As for "library or hand", that's not a huge
restriction
depending on deck design.
> I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent
> bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and
> the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out
> of the game, no matter what you do.
I think that you're missing the point that once Herbert is in play with the
Soul Gem, say turn 3, you can conceivably continuously play until you
oust the table.
For example:
Sensory Dep (or other high blood costing action)
Bleed with Force of Will
Burn
New Herbert comes out and dig for Discipline cards
Sensory Dep
Bleed with Force of Will
Burn
...and so forth.
You're also missing the point that the best defense is a superior offense.
If you can oust the table on turn 3, you don't have to concern yourself
with defense.
> > Since
> > Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect,
> > I believe? Hmm. they might not.
>
> I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively.
> Right, LSJ?
Even still, there are numerous other cards that use three blood that
would be useful. Kiss of Ra, for example, could be used to modify
an action at zero stealth.
> > If that doesn't work, hafta come up
> > with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him.
Could always go with Pulse to look at everyone's hands.
> > Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this
> > deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10
> > Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same
> > way as Herbie.
>
> So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap?
No...not really. You can design your deck in such a way as to have the
amount of discipline cads in your library that you need.
Noal
--
"Excuse me. Are you a yuppie?"
-woman at a gas station in Detroit
LSJ
> >[Derek S. Ray wrote:]
[snip]
> >> gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since
> >> Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect,
> >> I believe? Hmm. they might not.
> >
> >I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively.
> >Right, LSJ?
>
> The Sensory Deprivation card reads "(S) As above, but a vampire may be
> chosen; he or she does not untap during the untap phase as long as the
> acting vampire remains in play." This wording is slightly ambiguous
> since it doesn't use the more-useful template that it could: "Place
> this card on that vampire. That vampire does not untap during the
> untap phase. Burn this card if the acting vampire is removed from
> play."
While the wording does have some problems, they do not pose any problem
to this situation. The Herbert who was the acting vampire referred to
by Sensory Deprivation is in the Ash Heap. The one who is in play is not
Sensory Deprivation's "acting vampire".
So, no matter the other ambiguity on Sensory Deprivation, it doesn't work
"through" a Soul Gem (or through a contesting if the "acting" Herbert is
yieled, and so on). This is standard for all cards that "select", "choose"
or otherwise refer to a specific card in play - they refer to cards
by specific instance of the card, not by specific "name" that applies to
all copies of that card.
Beyond that, however, the bit about "remaining" in play is also important.
If the vampire leaves play and then returns to play (that is, the same
instance of the card returns to play), it doesn't matter, since he has
not "remained" in play. As soon as he left play, the effects of Sensory
Deprivation ended.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
Kevin Kelly
After reading many other peoples thoughts on him what about putting text
which says cost 6 to influence or make him a 6 point vampire with text
that his capacity cannot increase. This would essentially make him a 6
point vampire with semi-modifiable abilities which you pay for with one
extra capacity. This would (I believe) reduce the abuse of the soul gem
and really give the effect you were looking for to begin with at the
correct cost.
Kevin
Justin Fang
> carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I think that you're missing the point that once Herbert is in play with the
>Soul Gem, say turn 3, you can conceivably continuously play until you
>oust the table.
>
>For example:
>Sensory Dep (or other high blood costing action)
>Bleed with Force of Will
>Burn
>New Herbert comes out and dig for Discipline cards
>Sensory Dep
>Bleed with Force of Will
>Burn
>...and so forth.
I tested a very similar deck in playtest15 game on JOL; it only got 1 VP, but
that was because it was an untuned version. An optimized version would be
very very nasty. It even has built-in combat defense: contest your own vamp.
(You only want to do this when facing rush decks, since this tactic only
allows you to act every other turn, but it does make your vamp immune to
every form of rush except for Madness Network rush.)
(For those who don't know, the playtest set is a bunch of entirely unofficial
cards a bunch of people started making up about 2 years ago, when it looked
like WotC had effectively dropped V:TES support. It includes a vamp who used
to have a power similar to the one under discssuion here, until we realized
how dangerous it was and changed it.)
>Even still, there are numerous other cards that use three blood that
>would be useful. Kiss of Ra, for example, could be used to modify
>an action at zero stealth.
I used The Embrace, in hopes of not just infinite-loop bleeding, but also
weenie-swarm bleeding.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@ugcs.caltech.edu)
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