[LSJ] Political Struggle and Priscus votes
Slytherin
not seem all that clear.
1) Can Political Struggle be played on any vampire, not just a titled
one? (We are assuming yes as the wording doesn't specify, so you can
use it like a contract for Lasombra.)
2) If the vampire is a Priscus, does the acting vampire get a Prisci
vote in any subsequent referenda?
3) If yes, what about Gratiano's additional, would they get 2 Prisci
votes?
4) Would they get Genevieves additional vote? (Whether or not they got
the Prisci vote)
What about others that give a vampire votes - Legendary vampire,
Emmisary, Emergency Powers, Leadership Vacuum, Liaison?
Cheers
Andy
VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge
James Coupe
Slytherin <an...@operamail.com> writes:
>1) Can Political Struggle be played on any vampire, not just a titled
>one? (We are assuming yes as the wording doesn't specify, so you can
>use it like a contract for Lasombra.)
Yes, it just says put it on a ready vampire. It doesn't require a
title.
If that vampire gets a title later (e.g. a Praxis Seizure), you can use
it 'normally' too.
>2) If the vampire is a Priscus, does the acting vampire get a Prisci
>vote in any subsequent referenda?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=877349446.13530%40dejanews.com
No. The Priscus has zero votes for anything that counts the number of
votes they have. (Unless it specifically said something like "the
number of votes this vampire could cast in the Prisci sub-referendum
were a referendum in progress right now" or somesuch.)
>3) If yes, what about Gratiano's additional, would they get 2 Prisci
>votes?
No, they get zero votes - the additional one is ignored, per Leadership
Vacuum below.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2tsbgqF244nsjU1%40uni-berlin.de
One helpful thing to read is that he only gets the additional vote
during the Prisci sub-referendum anyway - which isn't what's happening
when Political Struggle gets in.
>4) Would they get Genevieves additional vote? (Whether or not they got
>the Prisci vote)
[LSJ 20040518] seems to suggest they would, again per Leadership Vacuum:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=40A9E4C1.5070405%40white-wolf.com
LSJ, responding to Halcyan 2:
> #5. A. To make sure, Leadership Vacuum counts the total number of votes the
> vampire has, not just the number of votes the title grants, right? So for
> Jaroslav with a Legendary Vampire, X = 5. For Angelica who got 20 additional
> votes via Political Struggles, X = 23. For Genevieve, X = 1. For a Baron with a
^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^ ^
> Firebrand, X = 3. For Carna, X = 0 when a Beyond Approach is in play? Correct?
Yes.
*
However, in the same thread, [LSJ 20040518], LSJ responding to Joshua
Duffin:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0405180957.2e97923d%40pos
ting.google.com>
> How much conditionality is required for the "non-title" votes to not
> count for Leadership Vacuum (and Political Struggle too, I suppose)? In
Any at all.
> the example above, Firebrand only grants votes during political actions
> (not blood hunt referenda); likewise Beyond Reproach only reduces
> Primogen's value during political actions.
So neither would count. The vampire's "base" votes would count.
*
And Genevieve's text only grants votes "during each political action".
(Per Firebrand.)
So I'm tempted to question if LSJ's confirmation of Genevieve being 1 in
Leadership Vacuum was wrong (I can't find anything more recent - correct
me if I'm wrong), and say that you wouldn't get anything from her here.
>What about others that give a vampire votes - Legendary vampire,
>Emmisary, Emergency Powers, Leadership Vacuum, Liaison?
It depends on if they're conditional or not.
Leadership Vacuum doesn't give a vampire votes, but it counts them in
the same way as Political Struggle.
Legendary Vampire just gives the vampire 2 extra votes - these can be
counted by Political Struggle.
I'm not sure how Emissary fits in - it just grants transient votes, like
a Bewitching Oration. Did you mean something else?
Liaison is just a title worth four votes, like Inner Circle, so it's
counted. (This counts, even if the Rise of the Nephtali is burned, per
[LSJ 20040830].)
Emergency Powers doesn't count for Political Struggle, being
conditional.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
LSJ
> Slytherin <an...@operamail.com> writes:
>>1) Can Political Struggle be played on any vampire, not just a titled
>>one? (We are assuming yes as the wording doesn't specify, so you can
>>use it like a contract for Lasombra.)
>
> Yes, it just says put it on a ready vampire. It doesn't require a
> title.
>
> If that vampire gets a title later (e.g. a Praxis Seizure), you can use
> it 'normally' too.
Correct.
>>2) If the vampire is a Priscus, does the acting vampire get a Prisci
>>vote in any subsequent referenda?
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=877349446.13530%40dejanews.com
> No. The Priscus has zero votes for anything that counts the number of
> votes they have. (Unless it specifically said something like "the
> number of votes this vampire could cast in the Prisci sub-referendum
> were a referendum in progress right now" or somesuch.)
Correct.
>>3) If yes, what about Gratiano's additional, would they get 2 Prisci
>>votes?
>
> No, they get zero votes - the additional one is ignored, per Leadership
> Vacuum below.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2tsbgqF244nsjU1%40uni-berlin.de
> One helpful thing to read is that he only gets the additional vote
> during the Prisci sub-referendum anyway - which isn't what's happening
> when Political Struggle gets in.
Correct.
>>4) Would they get Genevieves additional vote? (Whether or not they got
>>the Prisci vote)
[... contradictory LSJ statements ...]
> So I'm tempted to question if LSJ's confirmation of Genevieve being 1 in
> Leadership Vacuum was wrong (I can't find anything more recent - correct
> me if I'm wrong), and say that you wouldn't get anything from her here.
Correct.
>>What about others that give a vampire votes - Legendary vampire,
>>Emmisary, Emergency Powers, Leadership Vacuum, Liaison?
>
> It depends on if they're conditional or not.
>
> Leadership Vacuum doesn't give a vampire votes, but it counts them in
> the same way as Political Struggle.
>
> Legendary Vampire just gives the vampire 2 extra votes - these can be
> counted by Political Struggle.
>
> I'm not sure how Emissary fits in - it just grants transient votes, like
> a Bewitching Oration. Did you mean something else?
>
> Liaison is just a title worth four votes, like Inner Circle, so it's
> counted. (This counts, even if the Rise of the Nephtali is burned, per
> [LSJ 20040830].)
>
> Emergency Powers doesn't count for Political Struggle, being
> conditional.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
dvorax
a) What about Guido Lucciano with a Bloodbath? He is not titled, so he
has the 1 vote all the time, but "unless he or she has a title" (in
Bloodbath text) is clearly a condition.
b) Hypothetical vampire Karci with text: "Prince of Horna Marikova:
Karci has an additional vote during any referendum" Is this
"conditional"? He has the 3 votes whenever it matters, but for PS it
would only be 2.
c) Hypothetical political action: "Successful referendum means each
Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each
Methuselah gains an amount of pool from the blood bank equal to his or
her chosen vampire's votes."
Would the additional vote of Genevieve (and other similar effects)
count? She clearly has the vote in the time, when the pool gain
happens, but the vote is still conditional, so it shouldn't count.
Maybe there should be some clear definition for vote counting, like
there is for "current bleed" and "current weapon damage" [RTR
19980623].
> >
> > Leadership Vacuum doesn't give a vampire votes, but it counts them in
> > the same way as Political Struggle.
> >
> > Legendary Vampire just gives the vampire 2 extra votes - these can be
> > counted by Political Struggle.
> >
> > I'm not sure how Emissary fits in - it just grants transient votes, like
> > a Bewitching Oration. Did you mean something else?
> >
> > Liaison is just a title worth four votes, like Inner Circle, so it's
> > counted. (This counts, even if the Rise of the Nephtali is burned, per
> > [LSJ 20040830].)
> >
> > Emergency Powers doesn't count for Political Struggle, being
> > conditional.
>
> Correct.
thanks
dvorax.
LSJ
news:ea1b3b5c.04102...@posting.google.com...
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:<JM4fd.27461$OD2....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > James Coupe wrote:
> > >>What about others that give a vampire votes - Legendary vampire,
> > >>Emmisary, Emergency Powers, Leadership Vacuum, Liaison?
> > >
> > > It depends on if they're conditional or not.
>
> a) What about Guido Lucciano with a Bloodbath? He is not titled, so he
> has the 1 vote all the time, but "unless he or she has a title" (in
> Bloodbath text) is clearly a condition.
He has the vote, since he doesn't have a title.
> b) Hypothetical vampire Karci with text: "Prince of Horna Marikova:
> Karci has an additional vote during any referendum" Is this
> "conditional"? He has the 3 votes whenever it matters, but for PS it
> would only be 2.
How would that be conditional?
(BTW: The hypothetical card text is poorly worded. It would be:
"Karci has an additional vote." See Regent.)
> c) Hypothetical political action: "Successful referendum means each
> Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each
> Methuselah gains an amount of pool from the blood bank equal to his or
> her chosen vampire's votes."
> Would the additional vote of Genevieve (and other similar effects)
> count? She clearly has the vote in the time, when the pool gain
> happens, but the vote is still conditional, so it shouldn't count.
Not as worded, no.
> Maybe there should be some clear definition for vote counting, like
> there is for "current bleed" and "current weapon damage" [RTR
> 19980623].
There is. The votes a vampire would have in the main referendum of any
generic referendum (not necessarily a political action or called
by a younger/older vampire or a vampire of a specific clan or sect
or anything else -- just a generic referendum).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu