[LSJ] Untap Phase Timings
VTES2004
must be done before any other effects.
Homonculus retainer - Pay 1b to untap during any untap
(or bauble, or whatever...)
Question1:
Is this "normal untap" an atomic event?
Rephrase:
Is there any response (use Homonculus) allowed to untapping individual
cards while handling "normal untap"?
Question2:
Does the active player choose when to allow responses to each untap
event?
Rephrase:
Can the active player choose to resolve "normal untap" and "gain edge
pool" and (any other untap events like hunting ground) consecutively,
then say "you may respond" (use Homonculus)?
Question3:
Is "Normal Untap" an event that can be responded to by other players?
Rephrase: If Active Player untaps, may each meth have the option to
respond, then the active player again, then her pred, etc etc?
That's it for now.
Perhaps I have brought up other questions in my rephrases, sorry. I am
attempting to better understand specific timings and I trust I will
eventually get it.
salem
>During your untap phase, the Anarchs rulebook reads that untapping
>must be done before any other effects.
>
>Homonculus retainer - Pay 1b to untap during any untap
>(or bauble, or whatever...)
My understanding is:
You untap one of your cards. You untap another one. continue until all
your cards that can untap have done so.
THEN, after all that, you do 'during untap phase' effects. these
include untapping other cards using other effects. As the 'active'
methuselah, you get to react to all your untap phase effects before
anyone else can, so if you want to you could do everything you can
during your untap phase before anyone else can do anything they are
allowed to do during your untap phase.
Then you go clockwise around the table (see sequencing in the
rulebook) allowing each methuselah to do something they can do during
your untap phase (homunculous, etc). anytime one of them does
something, YOU get to respond with something (if you want), and then
you go clockwise again.
>Question1:
>Is this "normal untap" an atomic event?
each normally untapping thing untaps separately, one after the other.
>Rephrase:
>Is there any response (use Homonculus) allowed to untapping individual
>cards while handling "normal untap"?
no. those are 'during untap phase' effects, which happen _after_
normal untapping.
>Question2:
>Does the active player choose when to allow responses to each untap
>event?
sort of. see my initial spiel above.
>Rephrase:
>Can the active player choose to resolve "normal untap" and "gain edge
>pool" and (any other untap events like hunting ground) consecutively,
>then say "you may respond" (use Homonculus)?
yes. but note that the 'normal untap' can and must happen before
'during untap' stuff, and then you do the during untap stuff, all that
you want, and then you let the other players, going clockwise, do
stuff.
>Question3:
>Is "Normal Untap" an event that can be responded to by other players?
>Rephrase: If Active Player untaps, may each meth have the option to
>respond, then the active player again, then her pred, etc etc?
I guess other players could respond to 'normal untap', but there is
nothing i can think of that would be useful do do in there. would be
simpler, play-wise, for everyone to wait until the 'during untap'
time, at which point it's a lot more straightforward. note that it
doesn't pass to the predator after the active player, as this is not
an undirected action, it is an untap phase effect, so you'd go
clockwise.
Note also that for undirected actions, only the blocking opportunity
passes to predator after prey, not effects sequence, which is still
clockwise.
>That's it for now.
>Perhaps I have brought up other questions in my rephrases, sorry. I am
>attempting to better understand specific timings and I trust I will
>eventually get it.
no problems. through questioning comes wisdom.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
VTES2004
Is handling contested cards atomic?
If no, I should be able to pay for/give up contested card A, handle
Academic Hunting ground, pay for/give up contested card B
VTES2004
mistated (since there aren't necessarily terms for what I'm asking
about), or overly anal. My apologies.
Question6:
Just for anal-retentive reference for say...use in a computer program,
I am looking for verification that this is good game flow-
Seating Order-
Player A
Player B
--------------------------------------
[Unofficial Begin Turn Phase...for things like Clotho's gift]
Player A - no effects (pass)
Player B - no effects (pass)
(it may also be that all player's effects resolve at once during the
"begin turn")
[Untap Phase]
Player A - Untap All (mandatory)
Player B - no effects (pass)
Player A - no additional effects (pass)
[Master Phase]...
If I have the untap flow correct, then the rest of the phases are
orchestrated the same way and I have no need to ask about them.
However, in regards to a posting I made a couple days ago.
To recap that post, my final response was-
[Minion Phase]
MethA has VampireX equip Hawg
MethB has VampireZ attempts to block
MethA passes
MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
MethA plays lost in crowds (+1)
MethB passes
MethE passes
MethC passes
MethD passes
I believe the above is wrong. A phase does not properly conclude until
there is a pass from everyone, meaning MethA must pass at the end as
well. So, to correct that, I submit this-
[Minion Phase]
MethA has VampireX equip Hawg
MethB has VampireZ attempts to block
MethA passes
MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
MethA plays lost in crowds (+1)
MethB passes
MethE passes
MethC passes
MethD passes
MethA passes
[Influence Phase]...
Is the above flow correct for a single equip during the minion phase
during the acting methuselah's turn? (cant you just feel the
variables?)
Let me know if I've taken liberties with fact.
Timlagor
Incorrect.
Meth A passes immediately after playing Lost in Crowds -BEFORE Meth B
gets an opportunity to play anything else:
> MethA has VampireX equip Hawg
> MethB has VampireZ attempts to block
MethA passes -not sure this happens: Meth B may play ES at the same
time.
> MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
> MethA plays lost in crowds (+1)
Meth A passes
> MethB passes
> MethE passes
> MethC passes
> MethD passes
I'm not sure that Meth A gets a pass between Meth B "attempts to Block"
and "plays Enhanced Senses". If Meth A wanted to play Kiss of Ra before
B played Enhanced Senses: could they? (thus forcing Meth B to keep the
ES in hand for some reason)
salem
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
>> [Minion Phase]
>> MethA has VampireX equip Hawg
>> MethB has VampireZ attempts to block
>> MethA passes
>> MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
>> MethA plays lost in crowds (+1)
>> MethB passes
>> MethE passes
>> MethC passes
>> MethD passes
>>
>> I believe the above is wrong. A phase does not properly conclude until
>> there is a pass from everyone, meaning MethA must pass at the end as
>> well. So, to correct that, I submit this-
>
>Incorrect.
>Meth A passes immediately after playing Lost in Crowds -BEFORE Meth B
>gets an opportunity to play anything else:
Yup.
>> MethA has VampireX equip Hawg
>> MethB has VampireZ attempts to block
> MethA passes -not sure this happens: Meth B may play ES at the same
>time.
Meth A definately passes here. Attempting to block is an event just
like playing a card is an event. Meth A may play cards in response to
the attempt to block. the example you (Timlagor) give below being Kiss
of Ra, which would indeed leave Meth B stuck with EH in hand.
>> MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
>> MethA plays lost in crowds (+1)
>Meth A passes
>> MethB passes
>> MethE passes
>> MethC passes
>> MethD passes
>
>I'm not sure that Meth A gets a pass between Meth B "attempts to Block"
>and "plays Enhanced Senses". If Meth A wanted to play Kiss of Ra before
>B played Enhanced Senses: could they? (thus forcing Meth B to keep the
>ES in hand for some reason)
they could.
Forcing the EH to stay in hand could mean forcing them to not draw a
combat card they want, so when you go for the 0 stealth
diablerie/graverob, they do squat in combat, for example. :)
salem
>Question5:
>Is handling contested cards atomic?
no.
>If no, I should be able to pay for/give up contested card A, handle
>Academic Hunting ground, pay for/give up contested card B
yup.
it's an effect to be handled individually in amongst your other 'untap
phase effects' in whatever order you see fit.
VTES2004
--------------------------------------
[Untap Phase]
MethA - Untap All (mandatory)
MethA - Pass
MethB - Pass (no effects)
MethC - Pass (no effects)
MethD - Pass (no effects)
MethE - Pass (no effects)
[Master Phase]...
MethA - Plays Ascendance
MethA - Pass
MethB - Plays Sudden Reversal
MethA - Pass
MethB - Pass
MethC - Pass (no effects)
MethD - Pass (no effects)
MethE - Pass (no effects)
[Minion Phase]
MethA - Has VampireX equip Hawg (UNDIRECTED)
MethA - Pass
MethB - Has VampireZ attempts to block
MethA - Pass
MethB - Plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
MethA - Plays lost in crowds (+1)
MethA - Pass
MethB - Pass
MethE - Pass (no effects)
MethC - Pass (no effects)
MethD - Pass (no effects)
[Influence Phase]...
Everybody look happy? The difference between this version and each
other version previously posted is only signifigant as a point of
reference when, describing future timing issues. It also serves as a
timing framework in which you can fit most all VTES cards, which might
reduce the number of [LSJ] posts :p
salem
looked ok to me up to here.
>[Minion Phase]
> MethA - Has VampireX equip Hawg (UNDIRECTED)
> MethA - Pass
> MethB - Has VampireZ attempts to block
> MethA - Pass
> MethB - Plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
> MethA - Plays lost in crowds (+1)
> MethA - Pass
> MethB - Pass
C - pass
D - pass
E - pass
End block attempt by B
Start Block attempt by E (if desired).
E declines to attempt.
A passes
B passes
C passes
D passes
E passes
All other block attempts
C declines to use eagles sight/falcon's eye/anneke
A passes
B passes
C passes
D passes
E passes
D declines to use eagle/falcon/anneke
A passes
B passes
C passes
D passes
E passes
Action successful
A plays Freak drive
A passes
B passes
C passes
D passes
E passes
Next action, if any.
Timlagor
> Here we go, for the last time I hope!
Looks right to me.
(thought I'd better post in case you thought no one had looked :-)
VTES2004
A - Has VampireX equip Hawg (UNDIRECTED)
B - Has VampireZ attempts to block
B - Plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
B - Pass
C - pass
D - pass
E - pass
End block attempt by B
E declines to attempt to block.
E passes <<<<<<<<< change from prev by salem
A passes
B passes
C passes
D passes
<<<<<<<<<
-----------------------
Handle all other blockers Part
-----------------------
C declines to attempt play effect and attempt block?
C passes
D passes
E passes
A passes
B passes
D declines to attempt play effect and attempt block?
D passes
E passes
A passes
B passes
C passes
(end of turn recognized)
----------
Influence
----------
salem
>>[Minion Phase]
>A - Has VampireX equip Hawg (UNDIRECTED)
>A - Pass
>B - Has VampireZ attempts to block
>A - Pass
>B - Plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1)
>A - Plays lost in crowds (+1)
>A - Pass
>B - Pass
>C - pass
>D - pass
>E - pass
>End block attempt by B
>
>E declines to attempt to block.
>E passes <<<<<<<<< change from prev by salem
no. if E declines, A is the first person who gets to react to that
'event'.
E passes should be after D passes down there
>A passes
>B passes
>C passes
>D passes
> <<<<<<<<<
>
>-----------------------
>Handle all other blockers Part
>-----------------------
>C declines to attempt play effect and attempt block?
C declines, A gets to react first, then clockwise.
>C passes
>D passes
>E passes
>A passes
>B passes
>
>D declines to attempt play effect and attempt block?
A reacts first again, then clockwise.
The playing of effects in response to events is separate to the order
of making block attempts.
those are two separate streams going on simultaneously.
block attempt order is:
defending meth in the case of directed, then clockwise round the table
from the acting player.
or prey, then pred, then clockwise round the table in the case of
undirected actions.
Within each block attempt or declining to block, each player gets to
respond. The first person to be able to respond is the acting player,
then the defending player (if there is one), then clockwise round the
table.
LSJ
> During your untap phase, the Anarchs rulebook reads that untapping
> must be done before any other effects.
>
> Homonculus retainer - Pay 1b to untap during any untap
> (or bauble, or whatever...)
>
> Question1:
> Is this "normal untap" an atomic event?
Immaterial. Untapping all together or untapping each in turn accomplishes
the same effect.
> Rephrase:
> Is there any response (use Homonculus) allowed to untapping individual
> cards while handling "normal untap"?
Not until all cards are untapped.
> Question2:
> Does the active player choose when to allow responses to each untap
> event?
Per 1.6.1.6
> Rephrase:
> Can the active player choose to resolve "normal untap" and "gain edge
> pool" and (any other untap events like hunting ground) consecutively,
> then say "you may respond" (use Homonculus)?
Yes.
> Question3:
> Is "Normal Untap" an event that can be responded to by other players?
> Rephrase: If Active Player untaps, may each meth have the option to
> respond, then the active player again, then her pred, etc etc?
No. All untap phase stuff is done after the normal untap. [4]
Acting player goes first in that step. [1.6.1.6]
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
VTES2004
Now it looks right to me.