Q: DI, Rewind Time and Iron heart
jeroen rombouts
Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way?
jeroen
LSJ
> Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way?
1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend
on the subject line to start or finish the context.
2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played",
so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something
specific?
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
jeroen rombouts
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C73EA3E...@white-wolf.com...
> jeroen rombouts wrote:
> > Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way?
>
> 1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend
> on the subject line to start or finish the context.
sorry. I was in a hurry.
>
> 2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played",
> so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something
> specific?
>
Direct Intervention
Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no
effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from
the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned
card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was
a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.
=> same action can be played again, same action mod cannot
Rewind Time
[tem]: Burn an action card as it is played. That card has no effect (the
acting minion is not tapped).
=> same action can be played again? I think so, but i'm not sure.
Iron Heart
[pot][pre]: Burn an action modifier that requires Presence as it is played.
That card has no effect. Any cost paid is retrieved.
[POT][PRE]: As above, but burn an action modifier that requires Dominate.
=>same action mod cannot be played again? After a burned Conditioning can
you still play Bonding?
the Jones
[SER] Cancel the opposing minion's strike as it is declared. Any blood or
pool cost burned for that strike is retrieved from the blood bank by the
vampire or Methuselah who played it. The opposing minion gets a new
opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The Jones at
superior each round.
So the longer version of my question is do RW, IH and the Jones have the
same effect as DI for their specific card type. Or something like that :-)
Jeroen
on self-imposed sleep deprivation
LSJ
> > > Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way?
> >
> > 1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend
> > on the subject line to start or finish the context.
>
> sorry. I was in a hurry.
Ah. Rule 0: don't post when you're in a hurry (I've burned myself
by not observing this rule :-)
> > 2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played",
> > so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something
> > specific?
>
> Direct Intervention
> Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no
> effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from
> the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned
> card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was
> a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.
>
> => same action can be played again, same action mod cannot
The latter is a standing rule. [1.6.3.2]
Since nothing in DI's card text overrides it, it remains true.
> Rewind Time
> [tem]: Burn an action card as it is played. That card has no effect (the
> acting minion is not tapped).
>
> => same action can be played again? I think so, but i'm not sure.
Yes. There's no rule (nor card text) prohibiting the same action card.
> Iron Heart
> [pot][pre]: Burn an action modifier that requires Presence as it is played.
> That card has no effect. Any cost paid is retrieved.
> [POT][PRE]: As above, but burn an action modifier that requires Dominate.
>
> =>same action mod cannot be played again? After a burned Conditioning can
> you still play Bonding?
[1.6.3.2] remains true, since no card text on IH overrides it.
No part of Conditioning applies when it is canceled, including the prohibition
against other +bleed modifiers. The acting minion is free to play Bonding.
> the Jones
> [SER] Cancel the opposing minion's strike as it is declared. Any blood or
> pool cost burned for that strike is retrieved from the blood bank by the
> vampire or Methuselah who played it. The opposing minion gets a new
> opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The Jones at
> superior each round.
>
> So the longer version of my question is do RW, IH and the Jones have the
> same effect as DI for their specific card type. Or something like that :-)
There is no "DI" effect in that context - only the basic rules.
The basic rules do not restrict action cards or strike in the same manner
that they restrict action modifiers (and reaction cards).
Mike Nudd
> > Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no
> > effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from
> > the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned
> > card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was
> > a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.
> >
> > => same action can be played again, same action mod cannot
>
> The latter is a standing rule. [1.6.3.2]
> Since nothing in DI's card text overrides it, it remains true.
Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was
an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if
the original action card had never been played)? I assume that any
action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card?
If the DI targets the action modifier though, then the methuselah is
*not* permitted to play another copy of the same card? Would this also
apply to a reaction cards?
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
LSJ
> Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was
> an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if
> the original action card had never been played)? I assume that any
Right. Unless there's some action card printed that says "one one <this
card> can be played in a game." or some other restriction based on
card play rather than action performed.
> action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card?
No. No action modifiers could have been played, since the action
card was canceled when played.
> If the DI targets the action modifier though, then the methuselah is
> *not* permitted to play another copy of the same card? Would this also
> apply to a reaction cards?
The restriction on Modifiers (and Reactions) is per minion, not
per Methuselah. [1.6.3.2], [1.6.3.5]
James Coupe
<mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes:
>Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was
>an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if
>the original action card had never been played)?
Sure.
> I assume that any
>action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card?
Moot, because you play DI as the action card is played - which precedes
the playing of action modifiers.
--
James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c.
PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti
Patrick Harris
> In message <36e685b2.02022...@posting.google.com>, Mike Nudd
> <mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes:
> >Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was
> >an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if
> >the original action card had never been played)?
>
> Sure.
Is it correct to say "as if the original [type] card had never been
played"? If the action modifier is DI'ed, and not the action, the
acting minion cannot play a new copy of the same action modifier, can
he? If that's the case, and he can't, then it isn't as though he
never played that first modifier card.
Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects
of DI? Or am I wrong about that?
If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic
seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was
never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?).
Why isn't that same logic correct for action modifiers? Or, the other
side of that question, if the acting minion cannot play the same
modifier again after the first was DI'ed (due to 1.6.3.2), then what
allows for him to get around the NRA rule to play the same action card
again?
A little confused,
p.
Chris Berger
"Patrick Harris" <pha...@sfopera.com> wrote in message
news:2d0d1f86.02022...@posting.google.com...
>
> Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects
> of DI? Or am I wrong about that?
>
same action. There is a restriction about playing two of the same action
modifier on the same action. The card *is* considered to have been played,
but it has no effect.
> If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic
> seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was
> never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?).
>
Nope. The card is played, the action never resolves. NRA does not "tag" a
vampire until the action is blocked or resolves. Cf. Psychomachia (<pre>).
James Coupe
Harris <pha...@sfopera.com> writes:
<Direct Intervention>
>Is it correct to say "as if the original [type] card had never been
>played"? If the action modifier is DI'ed, and not the action, the
>acting minion cannot play a new copy of the same action modifier, can
>he?
Correct.
>If that's the case, and he can't, then it isn't as though he
>never played that first modifier card.
It isn't, no.
But for Action cards, it's usually a reasonable approximation.
>Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects
>of DI? Or am I wrong about that?
Because the rules (not DI) limit the playing of repeat action modifiers.
The cards have all still been played, they've just had no effect *other*
than to note they've been played, basically.
>If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic
>seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was
>never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?).
As Chris notes, NRA kicks in with action resolution.
The easy way to remember this is to think of Mask of a Thousand Faces.
Only the *last* minion, the one who was *really* acting the whole time
(thematically speaking) is the one that gets tainted by NRA. But in
rule terms, he's not the one who started the action - so NRA doesn't
kick in as the action starts.
>Why isn't that same logic correct for action modifiers? Or, the other
>side of that question, if the acting minion cannot play the same
>modifier again after the first was DI'ed (due to 1.6.3.2), then what
>allows for him to get around the NRA rule to play the same action card
>again?
In short, that the rules are different.