[tournament] Ropecon 2004 report + deck lists (or, "do something about Anarch Revolt!")
Petri Wessman
Friday when the gaming convention starts - as has been traditional.
I'm not sure how many years now I've been running these tournaments,
seven maybe, but the game's popularity has been growing steadily. Last
year we had an amazing 78 players, this year we beat that record by a
small margin with 82 players. Phew.
This year I also knew to expect a horde, and had prepared
accordingly. For the first time ever I closed registration 30 minutes
before the actual marked tournament start, this game me the needed
time to randomize seatings and do all the other bookkeeping. We
managed to start somewhere around 18:15, with 18:00 being the
announced time. Not too shabby.
Like during earlier years, I didn't have too much time to observe
specific games, I was too busy just running things. Everyone seemed to
be having fun, and I saw a large variety of deck types. Not many
Gehenna events yet, but that's to be expected - it usually seems to
take at least a year before new cards are really used to their full
effect.
To my dismay, two different "Master decks" made it to the finals. I
won't rant on this deck type too much here, there has been discussion
about it elsewhere already. In a nutshell, it's a deck type that
consists of mostly master cards, playing tons of Anarch Revolts to
sweep the table and using Golconda + Minion Tap for massive bloat.
A variant of this deck won last year too, played by the same guy.
I dislike this deck type because it does minimal interaction with the
rest of the table, and very very few normal decks (even tournament
ones) can do anything about it. Bleed decks need to bleed faster than
this can bloat (and avoid Deflects), rush decks would need to burn the
vampires instantly (torpor just gives fodder for Golconda), vote decks
would need to do massive damage to counteract the bloat (or bloat
themselves). It's doable, sometimes, but usually not.
The day that I see Anarch Revolt receive some errata to stop this
madness is the day I'll be happier when running big tournaments. I'm
getting complaints from players, nowadays, about how stupid it is to
even try to play in a tournament with these decks in it. I sort of
agree. I also think that good old Golconda might be just a bit too
strong together with Minion Tap now that Anthelios is out. But Anarch
Revolt it the biggest breakage here.
The onyl thing that stopped the final round being a total
cheese-o-rama was the fact the it had two master decks in it. Anson
became hot property, and both decks just eyed each other uneasily for
a while. In the end, Riku's bloat machine won out and he started
piling on the Anarch Revolts.
All due honor to the finalists, they are entitled to use any legal
means in the game to win - not to mention that playing one of these
monsters does take some practice.
Extra kudos to Tuomas Vuokko, who has two decks of his in the finals
(one played by him, the other by Tomi Korkki).
Despite the cheesy deck issues, it was a pretty fun tournament, and we
got nice prize support from both White Wolf and the Fantasiapelit game
store. A big thanks to both!
//Petri, VEKN Helsinki
Here are the deck listings for all the finalists. Everyone who doubts
that Anarch Revolt is broken is welcome to grab Riku's winning deck
below and spring it on an unsuspecting play group. See how much most
decks will be able to do againts it (hint: not much). The deck *does*
take a small bit of practice in order to be truly lethal, but it
should do fine as is. Remember that your vampires are not there to
actually do anything, they are pure Minion Tap + Golconda fodder. Note
that the deck would be even better (or worse, depending on point of
view :) with Anthelios added. Marko's master deck variant (see below)
is also quite deadly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Winner (3vp in final round)
Deck Name: Fix Me, Please
Created and played by: Riku Niittymäki
Description: Anson based master deck that just bloats & kills with
Anarch Revolts.
crypt(12):
6 Anson 8 dom Prince, +1 master
4 Anneke 10 dom Justicar, spec
2 Ulugh Beg 10 DOM Justicar, spec
master(69):
17 Anarch Revolt
13 Minion Tap
10 Golconda
5 Parthenon
5 Protected Resources
4 Life Boon
3 Direct Intervention
3 Dreams of the S.
2 Giant's Blood
2 Sudden Reversal
2 Temptation of G.P.
1 Bleeding the Vine
1 Elysium
1 Info Highway
reaction(21):
10 Obedience
6 2nd Tradition: Domain
5 Deflection
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd place (2vp in final round)
Deck Name: Finnish Bleed
Creator and player: Juho Linna
Concept: A very aggressive S&B deck without any defences.
crypt(12):
1 Mustafa 2 dom
1 Ohanna 2 dom
1 Samson 2 dom
1 Christine 2 dom
1 Ingrid 4 DOM
1 Gloria 4 DOM
1 Count Ormonde 5 dom,OBF
1 Badr al-Budur 5 dom,OBF
1 Zebulon 5 dom,OBF
1 Didi Meyers 5 DOM,obf
1 Gilbert 7 DOM,OBF
1 Mariel 7 DOM,OBF
deck(90):
master(11):
5 Dominate
3 Misdirection
2 Anarch Troublemaker
1 Obfuscate
action(19):
12 GtU
7 Scouting Mission
action modifier(60):
9 Cloak the Gathering
9 Command of the Beast
8 Conditioning
7 Seduction
7 Bonding
5 Faceless Night
5 Mask of 1k Faces
4 Lost in Crowds
3 Foreshadowing D.
3 Threats
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"66 Anarch revolts"
Created and played by: Marko Saari
Crypt (12):
Alexandra x2
Anneke x2
Anson x5
Democritus
Huitsilopocthli x2
Misc (19):
Deflection x2
My Enemy's Enemy
Obedience x9
Redirection x2
Second Tradition: Domain x4
Wake With Evening's Freshness
Masters (66):
Anarch Revolt x12
Antediluvian Awakening
Archon Investigation
Art Museum
Bleedin the Vine
Direct Intervention x2
Dreams of the Sphinx x2
Dummy Corporation
Fear of Mekhet
Forscritt Library x2
Gambit Accepted
Giant's Blood
Golconda: Inner Peace x10
Information Highway x3
Life Boon x3
Milicent Smith Puritan Vampire Hunter x2
Minion Tap x10
Protected Resources x2
Sudden Reversal x2
Temptation of Greater Power
The Parthenon x5
Zillah's Valley x2
Events (1):
Anthelios the Red Star
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deck Name: Lasombra Rape&Purge
Created and played by by: Tuomas Vuokko
Description: Build up, rape purge and pillage.
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 29, Max: 40, Avg: 8,83)
----------------------------------------------
1 Lucita (ADV) cel pot DOM FOR OBT 8, Lasombra:2,
Archbishop
2 Marcus Vitel DOM FOR OBF OBT PRE 10, Ventrue:3,
Prince
3 Ambrosio Luis Moncada aus DOM for OBT POT PRE 10, Lasombra:2,
Cardinal
2 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2,
Priscus
1 Lucita cel DOM FOR OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2
1 Banjoko obt pot DOM 5, Lasombra:3
1 Angelica cel DOM obf OBT POT 10, Lasombra:2,
Cardinal
1 Francisco Domingo de Polonia DOM OBT POT PRE pro 9, Lasombra:2,
Archbishop
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (16 cards)
1 Coven, The
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Elysian Fields
2 Fortitude
1 Giant's Blood
1 Golconda: Inner Peace
2 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
6 Minion Tap
Action (19 cards)
4 Baltimore Purge
4 Govern the Unaligned
3 Graverobbing
8 Mind Rape
Action Modifier (30 cards)
2 Blanket of Night
4 Daring the Dawn
2 Foreshadowing Destruction
7 Freak Drive
6 Shadow Play
5 Shroud of Absence
4 Shroud of Night
Political Action (5 cards)
1 Ancient Influence
1 Banishment
1 Dramatic Upheaval
1 Political Stranglehold
1 Reins of Power
Reaction (20 cards)
6 Deflection
7 Obedience
2 Redirection
5 Wake with Evening's Freshness
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deck Name: Red Cross
Created by: Tuomas Vuokko
Played by: Tomi Korkki
Description: Bleed & Bloat
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 24, Max: 34, Avg: 7,25)
----------------------------------------------
3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri:2
3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri:2
1 J. Oswald 'Ozzy' Hyde-White AUS dom FOR OBF pre 8, Malkavian:3,
Primogen
1 Quira AUS OBF obt tha 6, Malkavian
Antitribu:2
1 Cornelius Ottavio AUS OBF pre qui 8, Malkavian:2
2 William Biltmore AUS DEM dom OBF THA 9, Malkavian:3
1 Anatole AUS DEM dom for OBF 8, Malkavian:2
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (20 cards)
1 Bleeding the Vine
2 Direct Intervention
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Giant's Blood
1 Golconda: Inner Peace
2 Information Highway
8 Minion Tap
1 Obfuscate
2 Parthenon, The
Action (15 cards)
3 Pulse of the Canaille
8 Renewed Vigor
4 Spirit Marionette
Action Modifier (30 cards)
6 Cloak the Gathering
3 Conditioning
2 Elder Impersonation
6 Freak Drive
1 Kiss of Ra, The
6 Lost in Crowds
4 Repulsion
2 Spying Mission
Reaction (13 cards)
7 Telepathic Misdirection
6 Wake with Evening's Freshness
Combat (10 cards)
7 Anesthetic Touch
2 Skin of Steel
1 Superior Mettle
Equipment (2 cards)
1 Changeling Skin Mask
1 Ivory Bow
Jeroen Rombouts
"Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> schreef in bericht
news:LtbSc.307$FF5...@reader1.news.jippii.net...
<snip>
there we go again. I don't know why people keep bringing this up. OK AR is
a powerful card, but the AR deck isn't THAT powerful.
> I dislike this deck type because it does minimal interaction with the
> rest of the table,
straight obf dom decks have minimal interaction, most weenie decks have
minimal interaction...
>and very very few normal decks (even tournament
> ones) can do anything about it.
come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up or
intercept decks
>Bleed decks need to bleed faster than
> this can bloat (and avoid Deflects),
wrong! if the prey of the AR deck is a bleed deck, he can actually use the
AR damage to kill his prey. Barring a life boon and seat switching, this
means its almost sure of a table win. trick (for the gazzionth time): don't
vote the ARs away. let them work FOR you. As I see the deck below: it
doesn't have THAT much bloat in it.
besides, what is the problem of everyone at the table deflecting bleeds to
the AR deck if he gets to strong? That happens with weenie decks also, no?
>rush decks would need to burn the
> vampires instantly (torpor just gives fodder for Golconda),
wrong again. Every blood you remove of Anson is actually a pool damage: it
cannot be minion tapped again. If you can empty him every time, MT +
Golconda is no bloat engine anymore. influence 8 cap + Golconda => nett
gain: zero
>vote decks
> would need to do massive damage to counteract the bloat (or bloat
> themselves). It's doable, sometimes, but usually not.
again: only valid if you wan't to kill the AR deck. If you're its prey, you
actually have to do less damage to kill your first preys. Can't kill the AR
deck? by the time you're there you already have 2-3 VP, gained 12-18 pool.
>
> The day that I see Anarch Revolt receive some errata to stop this
> madness is the day I'll be happier when running big tournaments. I'm
> getting complaints from players, nowadays, about how stupid it is to
> even try to play in a tournament with these decks in it. I sort of
> agree.
Learn how to play against it, and it sure won't win more than a good S&B
deck.
OT1H, i agree with the fact that it changes the game too much. That's
prolly it's worse feature.
OTOH, AR-like cards are needed for the game, imo. Stop time-outs, make
intercept deck more interesting, etc
about card to hate: be lucky your tourney winner didn't include Succubus
Club, now THAT's a card I hate.
Teemu T Vilen
: "Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> schreef in bericht
: news:LtbSc.307$FF5...@reader1.news.jippii.net...
:> and very very few normal decks (even tournament
:> ones) can do anything about it.
: come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up or
: intercept decks
You're allowed your opinion, but on the level of facts you're just plain
wrong. Full masters decks should never cut it as well they do, and while
"AR + weenies" is just too cheese to cope with, "AR + masters only" is
unbrearable.
It's a design issue, and I do hope AR gets sturdy swing from the nerf bat.
//T
Jeroen
> Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
> : "Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> schreef in bericht
> : news:LtbSc.307$FF5...@reader1.news.jippii.net...
> :> and very very few normal decks (even tournament
> :> ones) can do anything about it.
> : come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up or
> : intercept decks
>
> You're allowed your opinion, but on the level of facts you're just plain
> wrong. Full masters decks should never cut it as well they do, and while
> "AR + weenies" is just too cheese to cope with, "AR + masters only" is
> unbrearable.
again. why? I have both played with and against AR decks. OK,
they're strong but not stronger that, say, a dementation bleeder. The
AR decks have been around for how long now? And suddenly there a
problem? please note that the deck in question is NOT packing
Anthelios.
first try my suggestions, then dismiss them as 'opinions'
"On the level of facts I'm wrong?" well, that set me straight...
Which facts are wrong? and why?
Jeroen
Janne Hägglund
> "Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> schreef in bericht
> > I dislike this deck type because it does minimal interaction with the
> > rest of the table,
>
> straight obf dom decks have minimal interaction, most weenie decks have
> minimal interaction...
Bullshit. Obf dom decks get hosed by rush decks, bleed bounce, Archon
Investigation, massive permanent intercept and handjam. Master/Anarch Revolt
decks are immune to all five.
And weenie decks are nothing *but* interaction. They overwhelm you by
taking massive amount of actions - all of them blockable, deflectable,
reducable, interceptable. Weenie decks are not antisocial, they are
hyper-social.
--
hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
Jeroen Rombouts
"Janne Hägglund" <h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:m3u0v9k...@etemenanki.homelinux.net...
> "Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen....@NOSPAMpandora.be> writes:
>
> > "Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> schreef in bericht
> > > I dislike this deck type because it does minimal interaction with the
> > > rest of the table,
> >
> > straight obf dom decks have minimal interaction, most weenie decks have
> > minimal interaction...
>
>
> Bullshit. Obf dom decks get hosed by rush decks, bleed bounce, Archon
> Investigation, massive permanent intercept and handjam. Master/Anarch
Revolt
> decks are immune to all five.
>
'Interaction' and 'defence against' are not the same thing.
and I'm bullshitting your bull shit:
1. rush deck
AR deck drop dead against a good rush deck. see my first post. I'll
elaborate again:
* Putting Anson in torpor => lose a masterphase
* Putting all his minions in torpor => no way of playing the deflections,
obediences or 2nd trads => hand jam
* emptying the vampse of the AR deck: 8-10 pool damage (blood that would
otherwise be minion tapped) => no bloat for the AR deck + takes own AR
damage => dead AR deck
2. massive intercept: yup. you're screwed. fancy that.... Not bad, really.
Every deck needs his nemesis, and the AR deck hoses the intercept deck.
3. bleed decks
The best bloating the posted deck can do is bring out Anson, minion tap
golconda for a gain of 8 that he has to spend on bringing out Anneke and a
new Anson. that means there are a LOT of turn before the deck is REALLY
bloating.
dom bleed and pres bleed will kill it before it gets started. Only thing
you need is: either a SR for the first Protected Rescources and of course a
couple of ARs in play. And bleed like crazy. AR decks have only little room
for deflections and can only play 1 each turn, or have to play second trad +
fail to block + deflection, which together with the first deflection (how
else would he get tapped?) is 4 blood of Anson gone. now use same math as
in nr. 1: that's effectively a bleed for 4. And that's not even counting
the turns were there is no Anson...
4. vote deck
same thing: USE the AR's against the AR deck. Change seats when needed, I
don't see a problem here.
now, instead of going: bullshit again, prove my points wrong....
> And weenie decks are nothing *but* interaction. They overwhelm you by
> taking massive amount of actions - all of them blockable, deflectable,
> reducable, interceptable. Weenie decks are not antisocial, they are
> hyper-social.
>
again. That's not what I mean with interaction. Interaction between all
players, that's what I mean.
Otto Koskinen
So, since bleeds decks completely, like, 0wnz0rz the AR decks, why
didnt one of the 3 bleed decks win the final game?
Guzmo
good & fast deck as prey or predator helps a lot. Not to mention those
effective multirush or ally rush decks. You can always sudden
important master cards (like Life Boon) and let somebody else win.
AR+Tap+Golconda+Life Boon+Antheolios is semibroken & boring combo, I
agree on that. I am the other player who played master deck in that
tournament. Few comments from the preliminary rounds. None of my
master cards were suddened. Well timed Life Boons gave me two game
wins. I think Parthenon was stolen/burned only one time. Only rush
deck I faced was my own Renegade Garou deck. I would have been ousted
on that game by my predator's fast moving S/B but my grand predator
(Garou player) helped and got one vp (which I took via Life Boon) :P
>Master/Anarch Revolt
>decks are immune to all five.
Any fast deck as prey/predator is master deck's biggest threat. Any
good ally rush deck can stop the Anson machine, just if the table
wishes so.
All of the finalists had possibility to win the final. I hope the AR
gets banned (I don't like erratas) so that we can see more interesting
finals at the next year's con :)
- Guzmo
Juho Linna
> come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up or
> intercept decks
Let's rephrase the above: The only decks that are _not_ screwed are
aggressive weenie decks.
Sure, fast weenies eat Anson decks as breakfast, but only if Anson
happens to be their first prey. Other starting places are not that
simple.
So to me, the following would seem more approppriate: "The only time
the Anson deck doesn't look strong is when he starts with an aggro
weenie predator."
Not much new information there, since nothing (except maybe weenie
rush) can consistently survive a fast weenie predator.
> if the prey of the AR deck is a bleed deck, he can actually use the
> AR damage to kill his prey. Barring a life boon and seat switching, this
> means its almost sure of a table win.
Really? How about when one of the remaining 3 players happens to be
hard to bleed?
It has been known to happen, you know, that people pack bleed defence.
A good bleed defender, say rush, intercept or bounce, will usually
slow the bleeder enough so that he withers to the ARs. And you already
mentioned Life Boon and seat switching yourself.
IMHO, the "almost sure table win" is really "a rare row of 3 easy
bleed targets _and_ no seat switches or Life Boons".
> trick (for the gazzionth time): don't
> vote the ARs away. let them work FOR you. As I see the deck below: it
> doesn't have THAT much bloat in it.
Yes, 4 pool gain per turn doesn't sound like much, but you have to
remember that
1) It starts at turn 1
2) On average, Anson deck has very little pool sitting on the table,
so it basically starts at about 26 pool and just keeps going up.
> besides, what is the problem of everyone at the table deflecting bleeds to
> the AR deck if he gets to strong? That happens with weenie decks also, no?
Weenie decks have the natural downside that their grand prey gets
quite strong due to lack of pressure. They're also very vulnerable
to rushing and dedicated intercept. Neither applies to the Anson
deck.
> Every blood you remove of Anson is actually a pool damage: it
I agree with this in the sense that rushing can stop Anson dead.
But it can do so consistently _only_ if the rusher is cap 10+.
How many of those have you seen in tournaments?
(Cap 8 can also work, but if the Anson player gets a hint of rush,
he may well bring out a cap 10 first.)
And if the rusher is not seriously fat, he will have to get lucky:
Anson decks tend to have a bit more rush defence than rushers have
rushes. Also, if the rusher cannot get into combat with 1 or 2
rushes, he has tough time cycling for more rushes. Anson deck on
the other hand will cycle steadily by playing 3-4 cards per round
and usually having Dreams. _Also_, the rusher's predator may want
to oust the rush deck, so he cannot spend all rushes on Anson.
> > vote decks
> > would need to do massive damage to counteract the bloat (or bloat
> > themselves). It's doable, sometimes, but usually not.
>
> again: only valid if you wan't to kill the AR deck. If you're its prey, you
> actually have to do less damage to kill your first preys. Can't kill the AR
> deck? by the time you're there you already have 2-3 VP, gained 12-18 pool.
The points that I made above about Anson's bleeder prey also
apply to voting preys: usually the remaining 3 players are
not just a run-through.
Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
> Learn how to play against it, and it sure won't win more than a good S&B
> deck.
I'm waiting for any good play tips, besides "play aggro weenie
and be his predator". ;)
> OTOH, AR-like cards are needed for the game, imo. Stop time-outs, make
> intercept deck more interesting, etc
I agree, AR is a nice card.
Would it not be enough to fix Golconda? Maybe playable once?
Once per metusaleh?
--
Juho Linna
Justicar of Tampere
Stefan Ferenci
> Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
>
>
>>come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up or
>>intercept decks
>
>
> Let's rephrase the above: The only decks that are _not_ screwed are
> aggressive weenie decks.
>
> Sure, fast weenies eat Anson decks as breakfast, but only if Anson
> happens to be their first prey. Other starting places are not that
> simple.
>
> So to me, the following would seem more approppriate: "The only time
> the Anson deck doesn't look strong is when he starts with an aggro
> weenie predator."
>
> Not much new information there, since nothing (except maybe weenie
> rush) can consistently survive a fast weenie predator.
>
except solid intercept and rush decks
>
>
>>Every blood you remove of Anson is actually a pool damage: it
>
>
> I agree with this in the sense that rushing can stop Anson dead.
> But it can do so consistently _only_ if the rusher is cap 10+.
> How many of those have you seen in tournaments?
>
> (Cap 8 can also work, but if the Anson player gets a hint of rush,
> he may well bring out a cap 10 first.)
i don´t understand, why do i need a 10 cap to kill anson???
because of the obedience?, 10 in a 90 card decks doesn´t seem so much!!
slap an haven uncoverd on him and start rushing he might obedience one
or 2 rushes but then he will lack the obediences?
> And if the rusher is not seriously fat, he will have to get lucky:
> Anson decks tend to have a bit more rush defence than rushers have
> rushes. Also, if the rusher cannot get into combat with 1 or 2
> rushes, he has tough time cycling for more rushes. Anson deck on
> the other hand will cycle steadily by playing 3-4 cards per round
> and usually having Dreams. _Also_, the rusher's predator may want
> to oust the rush deck, so he cannot spend all rushes on Anson.
>
well if ar decks are such a major player in your metagame one would
assume that the whole table will gang up on him, if not maybe that is
the reason why ar decks are so unbeatable in your region
stefan
Jeroen Rombouts
"Otto Koskinen" <O...@vedajabatumppuus.com> schreef in bericht
news:9opkh05u6ctk0bj99...@4ax.com...
There's no report on what actually happened in the finals. So how should I
know?
Jeroen Rombouts
"Juho Linna" <ju...@spamcc.yourtut.mothafi.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:cfdt6k$1825$1...@news.cc.tut.fi...
> Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
>
> > come on! The only decks that are screwed are decks with a lot of set up
or
> > intercept decks
>
> Let's rephrase the above: The only decks that are _not_ screwed are
> aggressive weenie decks.
why? I want to see the AR deck that can survive eg a Giovanni power
bleeder.
>
> Sure, fast weenies eat Anson decks as breakfast, but only if Anson
> happens to be their first prey. Other starting places are not that
> simple.
fast weenies also thank the anson deck when its their first predator. it
makes the job so much easier for them
>
> So to me, the following would seem more approppriate: "The only time
> the Anson deck doesn't look strong is when he starts with an aggro
> weenie predator."
why? weenie pot is way beter. remember: blood lost of anson is equal to a
lower minion tap...
>
> Not much new information there, since nothing (except maybe weenie
> rush) can consistently survive a fast weenie predator.
>
>
>
> > if the prey of the AR deck is a bleed deck, he can actually use the
> > AR damage to kill his prey. Barring a life boon and seat switching,
this
> > means its almost sure of a table win.
>
> Really? How about when one of the remaining 3 players happens to be
> hard to bleed?
they get the AR damage too, don't they?
>
> It has been known to happen, you know, that people pack bleed defence.
> A good bleed defender, say rush, intercept or bounce, will usually
> slow the bleeder enough so that he withers to the ARs. And you already
> mentioned Life Boon and seat switching yourself.
well, I'm assuming people play to win a table, not to get a number of VPs.
there's a huge difference between the 2.
>
> IMHO, the "almost sure table win" is really "a rare row of 3 easy
> bleed targets _and_ no seat switches or Life Boons".
that's already been mentioned: let your prey die to the AR and have a SR in
hand. => No life boon...
seat switching? well, first there's complaining about an all master deck
that doesn't interact and then suddenly it's switching seats....
>
>
>
> > trick (for the gazzionth time): don't
> > vote the ARs away. let them work FOR you. As I see the deck below: it
> > doesn't have THAT much bloat in it.
>
> Yes, 4 pool gain per turn doesn't sound like much, but you have to
> remember that
>
> 1) It starts at turn 1
no it doesn't. It starts at turn 3 (or maybe 2 with the Info Highway) And
there's no way of doing it every turn, because you don't have 8 transfers
every turn.
> 2) On average, Anson deck has very little pool sitting on the table,
> so it basically starts at about 26 pool and just keeps going up.
It costs 8 pool to bring Anson out. The winning deck also played with
Anneke. that's 18 pool.... 4 Golconda doesn't really cut it.
>
>
>
> > besides, what is the problem of everyone at the table deflecting bleeds
to
> > the AR deck if he gets to strong? That happens with weenie decks also,
no?
>
> Weenie decks have the natural downside that their grand prey gets
> quite strong due to lack of pressure. They're also very vulnerable
> to rushing and dedicated intercept. Neither applies to the Anson
> deck.
>
Anson deck dies to rush. i won't type it out again.
>
> > Every blood you remove of Anson is actually a pool damage: it
>
> I agree with this in the sense that rushing can stop Anson dead.
> But it can do so consistently _only_ if the rusher is cap 10+.
> How many of those have you seen in tournaments?
why 10+? if you can consistently remove Anson, Anneke will never come out.
and 1-2 obedience won't save their ass. besides, its an inferior obedience
=> you can still bleed or something.
>
> (Cap 8 can also work, but if the Anson player gets a hint of rush,
> he may well bring out a cap 10 first.)
more turns without vamps and without pool gain....
>
> And if the rusher is not seriously fat, he will have to get lucky:
> Anson decks tend to have a bit more rush defence than rushers have
> rushes.
elaborata plz. Most rush decks I play have at least 14-20 rush actions in
them. How does Anson defend against that?
>Also, if the rusher cannot get into combat with 1 or 2
> rushes, he has tough time cycling for more rushes. Anson deck on
> the other hand will cycle steadily by playing 3-4 cards per round
> and usually having Dreams. _Also_, the rusher's predator may want
> to oust the rush deck, so he cannot spend all rushes on Anson.
1 a turn is enough. And again, I'm assuming the pred of the rush deck is
playing the table and not simply going for a VP and then die itself...
>
>
>
> > > vote decks
> > > would need to do massive damage to counteract the bloat (or bloat
> > > themselves). It's doable, sometimes, but usually not.
> >
> > again: only valid if you wan't to kill the AR deck. If you're its prey,
you
> > actually have to do less damage to kill your first preys. Can't kill the
AR
> > deck? by the time you're there you already have 2-3 VP, gained 12-18
pool.
>
> The points that I made above about Anson's bleeder prey also
> apply to voting preys: usually the remaining 3 players are
> not just a run-through.
if the AR s keep on showing up: most of them are.
>
> Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
> before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
> grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
> doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
Everyone is weak at such a table. simply race for the table win.... what'so
difficult about that?
>
>
>
> > Learn how to play against it, and it sure won't win more than a good S&B
> > deck.
>
> I'm waiting for any good play tips, besides "play aggro weenie
> and be his predator". ;)
well then read what I wrote and try it....
>
>
> > OTOH, AR-like cards are needed for the game, imo. Stop time-outs, make
> > intercept deck more interesting, etc
>
> I agree, AR is a nice card.
>
> Would it not be enough to fix Golconda? Maybe playable once?
> Once per metusaleh?
no need
Jeff Kuta
> > Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
> > before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
> > grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
> > doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
>
> difficult about that?
There are *many* deck archetypes, that don't race for the win--they
play to control the table, specifically predator and prey. Combat is
one of those slower strategies, as is intercept wall, though things
are speeding up for combat decks.
If an Anson/AR deck is positioned at a table where:
a) They don't have a *rush* combat predator/prey capable of doing 8+
damage in a single combat; and
b) They don't have a stealth bleed prey;
they are in a really good position from turn 1 to take the table.
This doesn't even consider whether they have Boons and Obedience in
hand, not to mention Direct Intervention.
Besides, this game SHOULD NOT BE REDUCED TO A RACE. Multi-player
*interaction* is what makes VTES the game that it is, and Anson/AR
decks turn that completely on its head, taking a calculated risk that
their opponents will not be in the position to take advantage of their
relatively few weaknesses.
This is the real problem, as so many have said before.
Juho Linna
> well if ar decks are such a major player in your metagame one would
> assume that the whole table will gang up on him, if not maybe that is
> the reason why ar decks are so unbeatable in your region
Erm, this is exactly my point. The whole table needs to gang up
on the deck from the start. Doesn't that ring a bell? Nothing to
worry about?
Or are you perhaps criticizing the metagame here? That it's
somehow special so that Anson kicks ass here but is just
another deck elsewhere? I don't think so.
I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
it out with proxies and see for yourself.
--
Juho Linna
Juho Linna
>
> "Juho Linna" <ju...@spamcc.yourtut.mothafi.invalid> schreef in bericht
> > Let's rephrase the above: The only decks that are _not_ screwed are
> > aggressive weenie decks.
>
> why? I want to see the AR deck that can survive eg a Giovanni power
> bleeder.
Medium cap bleeders don't react well to Protected Resources
or bounce. Sure, heavy bleeders can oust Anson if he doesn't
draw the defences, but I think Anson has a fair chance of
surviving.
> > > if the prey of the AR deck is a bleed deck, he can actually use the
> > > AR damage to kill his prey. Barring a life boon and seat switching,
> this
> > > means its almost sure of a table win.
> >
> > Really? How about when one of the remaining 3 players happens to be
> > hard to bleed?
>
> they get the AR damage too, don't they?
Yes, but _after_ the bleeder takes it. How does that give the
bleeder an advantage?
> > It has been known to happen, you know, that people pack bleed defence.
> > A good bleed defender, say rush, intercept or bounce, will usually
> > slow the bleeder enough so that he withers to the ARs. And you already
> > mentioned Life Boon and seat switching yourself.
>
> well, I'm assuming people play to win a table, not to get a number of VPs.
> there's a huge difference between the 2.
Are you saying that the table needs to gang up on Anson first,
and only then consider playing their normal game?
> > IMHO, the "almost sure table win" is really "a rare row of 3 easy
> > bleed targets _and_ no seat switches or Life Boons".
>
> that's already been mentioned: let your prey die to the AR and have a SR in
> hand. => No life boon...
Again, why do you keep assuming your prey will die to the ARs
when _you_ take the AR damage before they do? Where's the
advantage in that?
> seat switching? well, first there's complaining about an all master deck
> that doesn't interact and then suddenly it's switching seats....
Sorry, I was being confusing there. I meant seat switches by
any player. It's such a common way for vote decks to snatch VPs
that I thought it was worth mentioning (as a possible obstacle
to your "almost sure table win", that is).
> > Yes, 4 pool gain per turn doesn't sound like much, but you have to
> > remember that
> >
> > 1) It starts at turn 1
>
> no it doesn't. It starts at turn 3 (or maybe 2 with the Info Highway) And
> there's no way of doing it every turn, because you don't have 8 transfers
> every turn.
Yes it does. Think about averages. You transfer out a vamp and
later gain pool equal to it's capacity. How fast does this
happen? At the speed of your transfers. Every transfer you make
gains you 1 pool later on. So you gain <your transfers> pool/turn
from the start, on average.
> > 2) On average, Anson deck has very little pool sitting on the table,
> > so it basically starts at about 26 pool and just keeps going up.
>
> It costs 8 pool to bring Anson out. The winning deck also played with
> Anneke. that's 18 pool.... 4 Golconda doesn't really cut it.
His vampires are at 1 blood when they sit at the table, so the
pool invested in them is 1.
What's the 4 Golcondas are you talking about? The deck has at
least 10.
> > Weenie decks have the natural downside that their grand prey gets
> > quite strong due to lack of pressure. They're also very vulnerable
> > to rushing and dedicated intercept. Neither applies to the Anson
> > deck.
>
> Anson deck dies to rush. i won't type it out again.
It dies to rush that has no problems with Obedience _or_
has no problems with throwing the first 2 rushes away. My
point is that this will at least cause problems to most
rush decks.
Also, dedicated rush sees little tournament play due to other
major problems.
> > I agree with this in the sense that rushing can stop Anson dead.
> > But it can do so consistently _only_ if the rusher is cap 10+.
> > How many of those have you seen in tournaments?
>
> why 10+? if you can consistently remove Anson, Anneke will never come out.
Like I said, Anneke can come out first. Requires foreseeing,
sure, but is a possibility.
> > (Cap 8 can also work, but if the Anson player gets a hint of rush,
> > he may well bring out a cap 10 first.)
>
> more turns without vamps and without pool gain....
Indeed, but is irrelevant if your predator is a fattie rusher.
He will be doing practically no pool damage to you.
> > And if the rusher is not seriously fat, he will have to get lucky:
> > Anson decks tend to have a bit more rush defence than rushers have
> > rushes.
>
> elaborata plz. Most rush decks I play have at least 14-20 rush actions in
> them. How does Anson defend against that?
OK, I assumed a rush deck with no more than 15 rushes, which
seems to be common. In my experience, 20 rushes will get your
hand jammed every now and then.
I have to admit that if you have managed to buid a rusher with
20 rushes, it has good chances to also beat Anson. (Assuming
nice enough a predator, of course.)
> > Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
> > before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
> > grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
> > doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
>
> Everyone is weak at such a table. simply race for the table win.... what'so
> difficult about that?
No, nothing is difficult with that. Usually just everyone
_except_ Anson is weak.
> > I'm waiting for any good play tips, besides "play aggro weenie
> > and be his predator". ;)
>
> well then read what I wrote and try it....
Try Anson out and then read what I wrote ;)
--
Juho Linna
Otto Koskinen
I just tried Riku's deck with one slight modification; I changed one
2nd Tradition to Anthelios.
I cocked up royally with Temptation of Greater power, and thus lost.
It isn't as easy as I've said in the past, but I stand behind my
words. It is quite easy to play, if you have the slightest of an
inkling of what to do. Big bloat is very forgiving, provided the
normal day.
I'll conduct more tests with his, and other master decks for a while
now.
Jeroen
> "Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen....@NOSPAMpandora.be> wrote in message news:<NFySc.211220$x91.10...@phobos.telenet-ops.be>...
> > > Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
> > > before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
> > > grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
> > > doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
> >
> > Everyone is weak at such a table. simply race for the table win.... what's so
> > difficult about that?
>
> There are *many* deck archetypes, that don't race for the win--they
> play to control the table, specifically predator and prey. Combat is
> one of those slower strategies, as is intercept wall, though things
> are speeding up for combat decks.
As I said before: deck who need a longer build-up and intercept walls
are screwed, I never said they weren't.
>
> If an Anson/AR deck is positioned at a table where:
> a) They don't have a *rush* combat predator/prey capable of doing 8+
> damage in a single combat;
or can rush 2 times for 4 damage, 3 times for 3 damage, .... Haven
Uncovered?
or disarm +amaranth , especially nasty is grave robbing.... I'm sure
there are other ways of getting rid of Anson.
> and
> b) They don't have a stealth bleed prey;
any kind of fast moving deck actually.
> they are in a really good position from turn 1 to take the table.
c. they have a fast and agressive predator. If you are being bled for
4-6 every turn by every vamp of your predator, you cannot play your
AR's, because if everyone leaves them on the table you kill yourself
with them. BUT without the ARs you can never win. I repeat: You
cannot outbloat a heavy bleed deck. Protected resources is NOT
enough. the Anson deck bloats for max of 8-10 every other turn (even
with Info Highway) . So if you can bleed for a total of 4 he gains
zero AND takes the damage from his own ARs. And the bloating only
starts when Anson's out. That's turn 4 or 5.
And that's not even counting bleeds that get deflected to the AR deck.
d. vote decks who change seatings can also really screw the AR deck
over. Another "screw over the AR deck card" is parity shift.
To recap: they can be screwed by
* heavy bleed
* heavy combat
* politics with parity shift and/or seat switching
* fast moving decks of any kind
mmm. sounds like most tourney decks, no?
>
> This doesn't even consider whether they have Boons and Obedience in
> hand, not to mention Direct Intervention.
Everyone should keep their Sudden Reversal for the Boons. Besides, the
AR deck needs enough pool before they can play a boon
Obedience is inferior, you minion can still bleed, or something.
DI = a master phase and a pool, so they'll keep it for when it's
really necesarry.
>
> Besides, this game SHOULD NOT BE REDUCED TO A RACE. Multi-player
> *interaction*
again: I make a distinction here between player interaction and minion
interaction. there is almost no minion interaction, granted.
Player interaction: potentially A LOT. for instance, if you're
playing on of the decks that get screwed by the AR strategy, you can
eg make a deal with the predator of the AR deck to help him oust him.
Besides, how do turbo decks interact? nobody's complaining about
these.
>is what makes VTES the game that it is, and Anson/AR
> decks turn that completely on its head, taking a calculated risk that
> their opponents will not be in the position to take advantage of their
> relatively few weaknesses.
>
> This is the real problem, as so many have said before.
The real problem is that it's boring. But I find intercept decks
boring too. I find dedicated stealth-bleed boring too.
Stefan Ferenci
> Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
>
>>well if ar decks are such a major player in your metagame one would
>>assume that the whole table will gang up on him, if not maybe that is
>>the reason why ar decks are so unbeatable in your region
>
>
> Erm, this is exactly my point. The whole table needs to gang up
> on the deck from the start. Doesn't that ring a bell? Nothing to
> worry about?
>
decks to gang up on:
almost any form of weenie decks (weenie dom/pre, weenie politics, weenie
intercept, weenie comp hack, even some weenie combat decks)
any turbo deck (arika/lucita/baron)
any hardcore stealth bleed deck (fast eddie, old school malks)
given the right table: palla grande deck, war ghoul deck any other
freaking strong deck.
thats vtes man, there are fast and strong decks, decks you need to
cooperate to beat.
> Or are you perhaps criticizing the metagame here? That it's
> somehow special so that Anson kicks ass here but is just
> another deck elsewhere? I don't think so.
players often react to late to a danger at their table. there are cards
that should be removed as soon as they hit the table. (ar, smilling
jack, brujah debatte, the paths etc) but most of the time people start
removing those cards when its to late (when there are 5-6 ar/BD in game,
when there are 5 counters on the smiling jack etc.)
anson decks are strong, and maybe boring, but far from unbeatable. if
your meatgame sees a lot of ar+s/b decks try building decks that
generate pool as fast as the ar deck or rush deck. and if the
obiedences are such a pain in your ass than build a laz multi rush deck.
vtes has a selfadjusting metagame.
>
> I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
> It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
> it out with proxies and see for yourself.
sorry man i don´t wanna sound like an ass but AR decks are not that
expensive or hard to build. it´s been a while since i have seen a
anson/ar deck in my playgroup. guess why.
stefan
Juho Linna
> Juho Linna wrote:
> > Erm, this is exactly my point. The whole table needs to gang up
> > on the deck from the start. Doesn't that ring a bell? Nothing to
> > worry about?
>
> decks to gang up on:
> almost any form of weenie decks (weenie dom/pre, weenie politics, weenie
> intercept, weenie comp hack, even some weenie combat decks)
> any turbo deck (arika/lucita/baron)
> any hardcore stealth bleed deck (fast eddie, old school malks)
> given the right table: palla grande deck, war ghoul deck any other
> freaking strong deck.
All of these have a large range of "enemy decks", or are
otherwise just a bit too hard to pull off (turbo Arika).
The point is that "enemy decks" for Anson are very specific.
Which equals to the deck being too good.
> anson decks are strong, and maybe boring, but far from unbeatable. if
> your meatgame sees a lot of ar+s/b decks try building decks that
<snipped rest of the "build an anti-Anson deck" rant>
You're already proving my point with this. Can't you see
it? :)
> > I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
> > It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
> > it out with proxies and see for yourself.
>
> sorry man i don?t wanna sound like an ass but AR decks are not that
> expensive or hard to build.
So having 10 Golconda, 5 Protected R. and 5 DI is common in
your neighborhood? Congratulations.
> it?s been a while since i have seen a
> anson/ar deck in my playgroup. guess why.
Someone tried a not-so-good version of it?
The player didn't have much experience playing it?
Your group always ganged up on the Anson player from the start?
--
Juho Linna
Jeroen
> Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
>
> I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
> It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
> it out with proxies and see for yourself.
what a load of crap. If you must know, the deck that won isn't my
idea of a well tuned AR deck.
For a *truly evil* but still beatable version see
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4deal and remove the
Personal involvement for something else
and over here the qualifier was won by this
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4antwerpecq
so we don't have good AR decks? Gimme a break. it probably because
we know how to play against them that they don't bother me... except
when they add Succubus Club to the mix.
Stefan Ferenci
> Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
>>Juho Linna wrote:
>>
>>>Erm, this is exactly my point. The whole table needs to gang up
>>>on the deck from the start. Doesn't that ring a bell? Nothing to
>>>worry about?
>>
>>decks to gang up on:
>>almost any form of weenie decks (weenie dom/pre, weenie politics, weenie
>>intercept, weenie comp hack, even some weenie combat decks)
>>any turbo deck (arika/lucita/baron)
>>any hardcore stealth bleed deck (fast eddie, old school malks)
>>given the right table: palla grande deck, war ghoul deck any other
>>freaking strong deck.
>
>
please enlighten me on the large range of enemys decks for a weenie
politics deck.
the large range of enemys decks for a weenie bleed deck (either dom or pre)
> All of these have a large range of "enemy decks", or are
> otherwise just a bit too hard to pull off (turbo Arika).
>
sorry man, a turbo arika deck is not that hard to pull of. (ok once when
arika was hit with an pentex subversion the first turn she was in
play i did have a serious problem)
> The point is that "enemy decks" for Anson are very specific.
> Which equals to the deck being too good.
>
so rush decks and decks that can handle the damage from the ar ( a deck
with a good pool support) are so specific? or a deck that can try to
vote away an ar each turn is to specific
i guess in the finals each of the bleed decks was to greedy just bleed
ing and not trying to vote the ar away. if that was the case don´t complain.
>
>
>>anson decks are strong, and maybe boring, but far from unbeatable. if
>>your meatgame sees a lot of ar+s/b decks try building decks that
>
>
> <snipped rest of the "build an anti-Anson deck" rant>
>
that was a the rant: if your metagame sees a lot of ar decks than build
a deck that can also deal with it.
one of the important parts in competitive vtes is adapting to the
metagame. of course i would wish that my funky cool funny trujah deck
would work in the NAC but guess what, it won´t.
> You're already proving my point with this. Can't you see
> it? :)
>
so your point is: lets ban all decktypes that require specific
antistrategies ? oh man vtes will become very boring
>
>
>>>I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
>>>It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
>>>it out with proxies and see for yourself.
>>
>>sorry man i don?t wanna sound like an ass but AR decks are not that
>>expensive or hard to build.
>
>
> So having 10 Golconda, 5 Protected R. and 5 DI is common in
> your neighborhood? Congratulations.
>
golcondas are not that expensive PR since CE neither. di was reprinted
in SW starters. i do agree that if you started after sw you will have
problems with the di (although i doubt you need 10/5/5, because the
really good ar decks don´t need 90 cards)
>
>>it?s been a while since i have seen a
>>anson/ar deck in my playgroup. guess why.
>
>
> Someone tried a not-so-good version of it?
> The player didn't have much experience playing it?
> Your group always ganged up on the Anson player from the start?
>
because smart players whip the ass of the ar player and the deck is not
that much fun to play.
the ar get voted away and then the anson player looks pretty stupid.
(yes ar decks are strong and win their share of games but it is not
unbeatable)
stefan
Jeroen Rombouts
"Juho Linna" <juho....@spamtutyour.motherfi.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:cffcik$1pu6$1...@news.cc.tut.fi...
> Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
> >
> > "Juho Linna" <ju...@spamcc.yourtut.mothafi.invalid> schreef in bericht
>
> >
> > well then read what I wrote and try it....
>
> Try Anson out and then read what I wrote ;)
>
I think I'm starting to understand how Derek feels sometimes.
I won't type everything out again, read my other posts and use you're brain.
Or at least try.
I've been playing this game for almost 10 years, the AR deck has been around
for ages. As I said before: I played with it and against it. probably more
times than you played V:TES games in your life.
Joshua Duffin
"Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f0d2397.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Juho Linna <ju...@spamcc.yourtut.mothafi.invalid> wrote in message
news:<cff8lu$1oql$1...@news.cc.tut.fi>...
> > I figure your playgroup doesn't have a well tuned Anson deck.
> > It's a pretty hard deck to build with all the rares, but try
> > it out with proxies and see for yourself.
>
> what a load of crap. If you must know, the deck that won isn't my
> idea of a well tuned AR deck.
>
> For a *truly evil* but still beatable version see
> http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4deal and remove the
> Personal involvement for something else
>
> and over here the qualifier was won by this
> http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4antwerpecq
>
> so we don't have good AR decks? Gimme a break. it probably because
> we know how to play against them that they don't bother me... except
> when they add Succubus Club to the mix.
I don't get it. You're pointing to two Anarch Revolt decks that won
major tournaments as examples of how Anarch Revolt is *not* overpowered?
If Anarch Revolt decks are so easy to beat, why did they win all these
huge tournaments? Didn't the people playing in them know how to beat
them? They certainly must have had the decks that were able to beat
them, right?
Sure, Juho's message could come off a little patronizing, but I don't
think that's how he (or she?) meant it.
Josh
sure, the card has been around forever, but that hardly means it's ok
Juho Linna
> "Juho Linna" <juho....@spamtutyour.motherfi.invalid> schreef in bericht
> > Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
> > Try Anson out and then read what I wrote ;)
> >
> I think I'm starting to understand how Derek feels sometimes.
>
> I won't type everything out again, read my other posts and use you're brain.
> Or at least try.
That's all you can come up with? I think I responded to your
points in an understandable fashion. If you can say nothing
constructive, we obviously should stop the conversation.
Or, maybe you could go back and comment on my post in a
constructive way.
> I've been playing this game for almost 10 years, the AR deck has been around
> for ages. As I said before: I played with it and against it. probably more
> times than you played V:TES games in your life.
Why do you feel that you have to start boasting with your
V:TES background?
Lighten up man, I'm not trying to insult you. No need to get
personal.
BTW, I too have been playing the game for quite a while.
I sincerely recommend changing your attitude and responding
in a more respectful manner. People with only 9 years of
playing experience just might, on occasion, have a point
that you have missed.
Cheers ;)
--
Juho Linna
Juho Linna
> please enlighten me on the large range of enemys decks for a weenie
> politics deck.
OK, since you asked so nicely, I will. Although I think you
already knew the answer.
1) Intercept deck of any kind.
2) Rush deck that has weapons agains S:CE (and most have).
3) Table where you don't have the majority of votes. Not a
deck type as such, but will cause you to lose a
considerable portion of games.
If these are not a broad range of decks in your opinion,
then your idea of a "broad range" is different from mine.
> the large range of enemys decks for a weenie bleed deck (either dom or pre)
The only deck that can consistently survive as the first prey
is weenie rush, I think. After the first prey, any intercept
or rush deck should've had enough time to put you into trouble.
> sorry man, a turbo arika deck is not that hard to pull of.
Yes, I know. That's why I said "a bit too hard to pull off",
referring to the deck not being broken. It's a bleed deck and
most decks have good bleed defence. Sometimes the deck will
go berserk and sweep, but the odds for that are not _too_
high, IMO.
> > The point is that "enemy decks" for Anson are very specific.
> > Which equals to the deck being too good.
>
> so rush decks and decks that can handle the damage from the ar ( a deck
> with a good pool support) are so specific?
Do you really think that any rush deck can consistently kill
Anson? What an odd opinion, after all we've discussed. I think
the rusher has to be quite special to have good chances.
Would you care to go back and read the part where I try to
explain the difficulties of rushing Anson. Then please tell me
where you think differently.
The other "non-specific" deck type you suggest is a bloat deck.
I have to admit that it's quite a broad deck concept, and might
prove good against it. But I have yet to see a bloater win
Anson.
> i guess in the finals each of the bleed decks was to greedy just bleed
> ing and not trying to vote the ar away.
In the finals, only Anson had votes on the table.
> so your point is: lets ban all decktypes that require specific
> antistrategies ?
Yes. If the antistrategies required are too narrow, I think
it's good for the game to "fix" something in the deck.
--
Juho Linna
Jeroen
> Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote:
> >
> > "Juho Linna" <ju...@spamcc.yourtut.mothafi.invalid> schreef in bericht
>
> > > Let's rephrase the above: The only decks that are _not_ screwed are
> > > aggressive weenie decks.
> >
> > why? I want to see the AR deck that can survive eg a Giovanni power
> > bleeder.
>
> Medium cap bleeders don't react well to Protected Resources
> or bounce. Sure, heavy bleeders can oust Anson if he doesn't
> draw the defences, but I think Anson has a fair chance of
> surviving.
I told you: bleeding for 4-5/turn is enough (if you leave the ARs in
play). That's possible with a midcap deck with PR and bounce. BTW,
only 5 bounce in the decklist, that's doesn't mean he can deflect
every turn. and a deflection is also a bleed for one.
>
>
> > > > if the prey of the AR deck is a bleed deck, he can actually use the
> > > > AR damage to kill his prey. Barring a life boon and seat switching,
> this
> > > > means its almost sure of a table win.
> > >
> > > Really? How about when one of the remaining 3 players happens to be
> > > hard to bleed?
you just gained 6 pool, and they keep on getting the AR damage + your
bleeds.
> >
> > they get the AR damage too, don't they?
>
> Yes, but _after_ the bleeder takes it. How does that give the
> bleeder an advantage?
Doesn't matter, a bleeder does more damage to its prey IN ADDITION to
the AR damage.
>
>
> > > It has been known to happen, you know, that people pack bleed defence.
> > > A good bleed defender, say rush, intercept or bounce, will usually
> > > slow the bleeder enough so that he withers to the ARs. And you already
> > > mentioned Life Boon and seat switching yourself.
> >
> > well, I'm assuming people play to win a table, not to get a number of VPs.
> > there's a huge difference between the 2.
>
> Are you saying that the table needs to gang up on Anson first,
> and only then consider playing their normal game?
only if necesary. What I mean is that if everyone must keep the AR
deck in mind, before they start killing their prey's. Think about how
the table will look like after each oust, etc.
>
>
> > > IMHO, the "almost sure table win" is really "a rare row of 3 easy
> > > bleed targets _and_ no seat switches or Life Boons".
> >
> > that's already been mentioned: let your prey die to the AR and have a SR in
> > hand. => No life boon...
>
> Again, why do you keep assuming your prey will die to the ARs
> when _you_ take the AR damage before they do? Where's the
> advantage in that?
What I mean is: don't kill your prey in your turn. put them below the
number of ARs in play and let them die to those. => you can play SR on
a life boon from the AR deck.
>
>
> > seat switching? well, first there's complaining about an all master deck
> > that doesn't interact and then suddenly it's switching seats....
>
> Sorry, I was being confusing there. I meant seat switches by
> any player. It's such a common way for vote decks to snatch VPs
> that I thought it was worth mentioning (as a possible obstacle
> to your "almost sure table win", that is).
If someone can switch seats the AR deck is fucked. period.
>
>
> > > Yes, 4 pool gain per turn doesn't sound like much, but you have to
> > > remember that
> > >
> > > 1) It starts at turn 1
> >
> > no it doesn't. It starts at turn 3 (or maybe 2 with the Info Highway) And
> > there's no way of doing it every turn, because you don't have 8 transfers
> > every turn.
>
> Yes it does. Think about averages. You transfer out a vamp and
> later gain pool equal to it's capacity. How fast does this
> happen? At the speed of your transfers. Every transfer you make
> gains you 1 pool later on. So you gain <your transfers> pool/turn
> from the start, on average.
the first pool you actually *gain* is in the masterphase of the 3th
turn (assuming you start the game with 4 transfers)
What you mean is: you're investing pool in a future possible gain.
Not the same, having a lot of pool invested does not save you when
your pool runs out.
And <the transfers> pool per turn means that
a/ Anson never spends a blood => unlikely
b/ you can play Minion Tap + Golconda EVERY TURN
even then you only gain 4-6 pool per turn (minus pool for: Pathenon,
Protected Resources, DI)
Don't tell me that a dedicated bleed deck cannot bleed for 4 pool per
turn, even with Protected Resources in play? Add to this the damage
from the AR and it suddenly doesn't look THAT good for the AR deck,
does it?
>
>
> > > 2) On average, Anson deck has very little pool sitting on the table,
> > > so it basically starts at about 26 pool and just keeps going up.
> >
> > It costs 8 pool to bring Anson out. The winning deck also played with
> > Anneke. that's 18 pool.... 4 Golconda doesn't really cut it.
sorry typo. it's ten.
again: 4-5 pool per turn (or 8-10 every two turns) , which he has to
invest again....
>
> His vampires are at 1 blood when they sit at the table, so the
> pool invested in them is 1.
yes, *after* he played the minion tap, OK. He still has to pay for a
number of cards. And take the damage from the AR AND has a predator
too.
> What's the 4 Golcondas are you talking about? The deck has at
> least 10.
>
>
> > > Weenie decks have the natural downside that their grand prey gets
> > > quite strong due to lack of pressure. They're also very vulnerable
> > > to rushing and dedicated intercept. Neither applies to the Anson
> > > deck.
> >
> > Anson deck dies to rush. i won't type it out again.
>
> It dies to rush that has no problems with Obedience _or_
> has no problems with throwing the first 2 rushes away. My
> point is that this will at least cause problems to most
> rush decks.
Obedience is not really enough. it's inferior. you you're guy can
still bleed. 2rushes in hand is not THAT special with a rush deck.
And ever heard of Haven Uncovered?
>
> Also, dedicated rush sees little tournament play due to other
> major problems.
Well, and dedicated bleed? It's the decks the AR decks fears the most,
both as predator and as prey. you don't see those at tourneys?
>
>
> > > I agree with this in the sense that rushing can stop Anson dead.
> > > But it can do so consistently _only_ if the rusher is cap 10+.
> > > How many of those have you seen in tournaments?
> >
> > why 10+? if you can consistently remove Anson, Anneke will never come out.
>
> Like I said, Anneke can come out first. Requires foreseeing,
> sure, but is a possibility.
But it slows the AR decks game WAAY DOWN, not being able to play 2
master cards for an additional 2 turns.
>
>
> > > (Cap 8 can also work, but if the Anson player gets a hint of rush,
> > > he may well bring out a cap 10 first.)
> >
> > more turns without vamps and without pool gain....
>
> Indeed, but is irrelevant if your predator is a fattie rusher.
> He will be doing practically no pool damage to you.
>
>
> > > And if the rusher is not seriously fat, he will have to get lucky:
> > > Anson decks tend to have a bit more rush defence than rushers have
> > > rushes.
> >
> > elaborata plz. Most rush decks I play have at least 14-20 rush actions in
> > them. How does Anson defend against that?
>
> OK, I assumed a rush deck with no more than 15 rushes, which
> seems to be common. In my experience, 20 rushes will get your
> hand jammed every now and then.
>
> I have to admit that if you have managed to buid a rusher with
> 20 rushes, it has good chances to also beat Anson. (Assuming
> nice enough a predator, of course.)
most of my rush decks pack 12-16 rushes and 4 haven uncovered. With
the number of DI flying around in these parts, you NEED that many.
>
>
> > > Remember that as Anson's prey, _you_ will take the AR damage
> > > before your prey. And if your prey happens to be weak, your
> > > grand prey will probably be that much stronger. It really
> > > doesn't take all that much to stop you from getting 2 VPs.
> >
> > Everyone is weak at such a table. simply race for the table win.... what'so
> > difficult about that?
>
> No, nothing is difficult with that. Usually just everyone
> _except_ Anson is weak.
The trick is exactly to keep him as weak as possible. That way he
cannot just dump 3 AR's in play every turn, because he will die to
them too.
>
>
> > > I'm waiting for any good play tips, besides "play aggro weenie
> > > and be his predator". ;)
see above. for a laugh, If he brings it again, play dom weenie (alway
include a number of Dominate Kine!). and put a blood trade in play.
See the Anson deck cringe....
> >
> > well then read what I wrote and try it....
>
> Try Anson out and then read what I wrote ;)
see my other post about this remark...
Juho Linna
> Juho Linna <juho....@spamtutyour.motherfi.invalid> wrote
> I told you: bleeding for 4-5/turn is enough (if you leave the ARs in
> play).
If he gains 4/turn and you hurt him 5/turn, you're doing a net
damage of 1+AR. You usually have to do at least 30 pool damage
to kill Anson, so that seems painfully slow for a bleeder (who
is usually in a hurry because he lacks defences).
> only 5 bounce in the decklist, that's doesn't mean he can deflect
Yes, that was a metagame choice. He didn't expect many serious
bleeders. Decks seem more combat oriented nowadays.
> Doesn't matter, a bleeder does more damage to its prey IN ADDITION to
> the AR damage.
I think I mentioned that almost every deck packs bleed defence
of some sort. ARs quicken the game so that two, or even one
well timed bounce can give the bleeder's prey a VP. The other
players are running the race too.
It may seem, for the bleeder, that taking the AR damage before
his prey is a small disadvantage compared to the lack of
pressure from Anson. But the quickening effect of AR seems to
make the table more unstable. Usually everyone (except Anson)
is on the edge, and the advantage is not as great as it seems.
> > Yes it does. Think about averages. You transfer out a vamp and
> > later gain pool equal to it's capacity. How fast does this
> > happen? At the speed of your transfers. Every transfer you make
> > gains you 1 pool later on. So you gain <your transfers> pool/turn
> > from the start, on average.
>
> the first pool you actually *gain* is in the masterphase of the 3th
> turn (assuming you start the game with 4 transfers)
>
> What you mean is: you're investing pool in a future possible gain.
> Not the same, having a lot of pool invested does not save you when
> your pool runs out.
Indeed, that's why I used the word "average" there. Anyhow,
it's very rare to see the deck with more than 10 pool invested
anywhere on the table.
Let's assume the above 10 pool investment to keep Anson running.
Also, assume that on average, decks start doing their thing after
2 turns. At that point Anson is at 20+4+4=28 pool (thinking
averages again), and keeps going up 4/turn.
> And <the transfers> pool per turn means that
> a/ Anson never spends a blood => unlikely
> b/ you can play Minion Tap + Golconda EVERY TURN
True, something like 3,5 may be more accurate. Remember that
Giant's Blood is huge when he gets it, and raises the average.
Dreams of the S. also raises the average a tad by giving pool
_and_ transfers.
> even then you only gain 4-6 pool per turn (minus pool for: Pathenon,
^^^^
So the deck has just 10 pool invested in running it and
gains 4 pool/turn from the start, unblockably and very
reliably. Sounds like a decent bloater to me.
> Obedience is not really enough. it's inferior. you you're guy can
> still bleed.
Ooh, scary. The rusher is now bleeding for 1.
If that's all he can do for the next couple rounds, while
digging for another rush, it sounds like a deal. :)
> And ever heard of Haven Uncovered?
Ah, there you have a point. That card will crush the balls
of Anson into tiny bits (assuming he's male).
> > Also, dedicated rush sees little tournament play due to other
> > major problems.
>
> Well, and dedicated bleed? It's the decks the AR decks fears the most,
> both as predator and as prey. you don't see those at tourneys?
Sure, we have bleeders, but not many weenie bleeders. Maybe
because of the combat atmosphere, or maybe because not many
people like to play them.
I still think that a decent defence module can be put into
Anson against med cap bleeders.
> > Like I said, Anneke can come out first. Requires foreseeing,
> > sure, but is a possibility.
>
> But it slows the AR decks game WAAY DOWN, not being able to play 2
> master cards for an additional 2 turns.
Like I said earlier, slowing is not a problem if the predator
is a fattie rush.
> > No, nothing is difficult with that. Usually just everyone
> > _except_ Anson is weak.
>
> The trick is exactly to keep him as weak as possible. That way he
> cannot just dump 3 AR's in play every turn, because he will die to
> them too.
But of course "the trick" is to keep him weak, so weak in fact
that he's ousted. I thought that the _means_ to get him weak is
what we've been trying to get into here.
> > > > I'm waiting for any good play tips, besides "play aggro weenie
> > > > and be his predator". ;)
>
> see above. for a laugh, If he brings it again, play dom weenie (alway
> include a number of Dominate Kine!). and put a blood trade in play.
> See the Anson deck cringe....
Well, if nothing changes, I'll prolly play with Gwendolyn
multirush in 2005. She obeys nobody. :)
--
Juho Linna
Jeroen Rombouts
"Joshua Duffin" <duff...@bls.gov> schreef in bericht
news:2o1p3lF...@uni-berlin.de...
so they 've won 2 tourneys (I never said they were weak, just not as
unbeatable as these guys seem to think)... want to check how many s&b decks
won a tourney in these parts the last couple of years?
Otto Koskinen
<juho....@spamtutyour.motherfi.invalid> wrote:
>Well, if nothing changes, I'll prolly play with Gwendolyn
>multirush in 2005. She obeys nobody. :)
And not make it to the finals, due to the general suckiness of combat
in general. ;)
Jeroen Rombouts
"Juho Linna" <juho....@spamtutyour.motherfi.invalid> schreef in bericht
>
>
> Yes, that was a metagame choice. He didn't expect many serious
> bleeders. Decks seem more combat oriented nowadays.
>
>
Well, here we are then: in such a metagame the AR deck is strongest. Not in
a high bleed environment.
<snip>
> Well, if nothing changes, I'll prolly play with Gwendolyn
> multirush in 2005. She obeys nobody. :)
euhm. don't :-) you'll run into problems with Freak Drives that get Di-ed.
If you really want to screw Anson decks, play a version of the low-to
mid-cap dementation bleeder. Not only does it bleed for lots, but it also
gains pool while doing so. And, if nessecary, can bleed anyone.
David Cherryholmes
> euhm. don't :-) you'll run into problems with Freak Drives that get Di-ed.
This has been my experience, too.
> If you really want to screw Anson decks, play a version of the low-to
> mid-cap dementation bleeder. Not only does it bleed for lots, but it also
> gains pool while doing so. And, if nessecary, can bleed anyone.
I believe our rock-paper-scissors game now has a "best deck", and this
is it. Add DI to taste.... Other than the S.I.T. Theory, I have a hard
time finding an explanation for why this strategy, already ridiculously
strong, has recently gotten:
A) Block fails, and none of your other guys can block, either.
B) Action: you go to torpor
C) I get superior and untap.
D) Modifier: you can't rush this guy
--
David Cherryholmes
Emmit Svenson
> To my dismay, two different "Master decks" made it to the finals. I
> won't rant on this deck type too much here...
You devoted more paragraphs in your tournament report ranting about
master decks than you did telling us what happened in the final round
of the tournament. Might this be too much ranting?
Here are some reasonable deckbuilding precautions European tournament
players can take to cope with the current swell of master decks in
their metagame.
1) Include 2-3 Sudden Reversal. If Anthelios is in play, you may
retrieve these cards later when your prey is about to be ousted by AR
so you can cancel any Life Boon played. You may also use them to slow
down the master deck's bloat.
2) Include a location stealing method (Dominate Kine and Disputed
Territory being the simplest choices) or Conquest of Humanity. Not
every master deck has Anson, but every master deck has the Parthenon.
Take it and contest it, or force the master deck to pay for it every
turn.
3) Don't play a slow deck. Play responsible power bleed, PRE vote,
crypt machine, weenie rush…anything with plenty of minion power. This
is probably good advice for games with 2 hour time limits in any case.
4) Include card cycling options. If your prey isn't blocking or your
predator isn't acting, chances are you'll jam up on
stealth/intercept/bounce/whatever. Have a plan to deal with this
eventuality.
I should make this list my sigfile...
Smiling Tom
"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:75bdf7ed.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Petri Wessman <nos...@orava.org> wrote in message
news:<LtbSc.307$FF5...@reader1.news.jippii.net>...
> > To my dismay, two different "Master decks" made it to the finals. I
> > won't rant on this deck type too much here...
>
> You devoted more paragraphs in your tournament report ranting about
> master decks than you did telling us what happened in the final round
> of the tournament. Might this be too much ranting?
>
> Here are some reasonable deckbuilding precautions European tournament
> players can take to cope with the current swell of master decks in
> their metagame.
Or do as some of us did last sunday at the Conclave:
- Pack several emergency preparations and cancel Anthelios as it's played.
Masters' decks that rely on Anthelios don't pack 8+ golconda/8+ minion
taps/14+ AR, but instead uses only 6 of each and 10 AR, adding more "what
if" masters (such as malkavian dementia) that will clog their hand sooner or
later if they can't put anthelios in play.
- Play Wormwood and low the max capacity to 7: No more golcondas, game over
- Play black hands. Either Remover and Black hand ritual do them more damage
that you might thing of. When Karol played a Remover on the 2 cap black hand
on the second turn, the master's deck player realized she won't be able to
play any deflection and/or obedience for the whole game.
Smiling Tom