[LSJ] Red Herring's extra restrictions
Adonai
Red Herring
...Take the card played to perform the action (if any) back into your
hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn.
So, can you play computer hack, Red Herring, then bleed with or
without a card that same turn? Or can you only not computer hack
again?
Here's the response I would give:
The "same action" is the exact precise action you took.
If I bleed with Force of Will (computer hacking, any action card that
bleeds), and play Red Herring to take the card back into my hand, my
other minions are only prevented from playing that same carded action
by name again this turn.
You can bleed with all of your other minions if you bleed with an
action card and then play Red Herring to cancel the action.
Red Herring, Obedience, and Change of Target do not restrict actions
based on "type of action", only on specific action.
If the specific action cancelled by Red Herring is cardless bleed,
then only cardless bleed is prohibited for the rest of your vampires.
Thoughts?
Gomi no Sensei
Adonai <ado...@fastmail.ca> wrote:
>I was asked the following:
>
>Red Herring
>...Take the card played to perform the action (if any) back into your
>hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn.
>
>So, can you play computer hack, Red Herring, then bleed with or
>without a card that same turn? Or can you only not computer hack
>again?
'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against
the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand,
regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card
in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and
doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905]
"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will,
etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same
action' ban, such as Red Herring's.
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
The Lasombra
>'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against
>the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand,
>regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card
>in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and
>doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905]
Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19.
>"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will,
>etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same
>action' ban, such as Red Herring's.
I disagree.
See section 3.18 of the FAQ.
_______________________________
3.18 What does "Same Action" mean?
Certain cards like Obedience, Change of Target, and Red Herring
prohibit you from taking the "same action" again this turn. What does
"same action" mean in these cases?
For these cards, the "same action" will either be one of the basic
cardless actions (ie hunt, bleed, rescue from torpor, commit
diablerie, leave torpor) or a specific action by the title of the
card used to take the action (ie call a specific vote, equip with a
specific piece of equipment, employ a specific retainer, recruit a
specific ally, bleed with a particular action card).
Note: This is different than the "no repeat actions" tournament rule,
see 3.19.
_______________________________
If you take an action with a card, it is a specific action by the
title of the card used to take the action. No other action is that
action, for the purposes of Obedience, Change of Target, and Red
Herring.
The "type of action" has nothing to do with the prohibitions that
these cards place on subsequent actions.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Ramsteiner
> On 28 Jul 2002 19:37:17 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
>
>
> >'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against
> >the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand,
> >regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card
> >in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and
> >doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905]
>
> Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19.
>
>
> >"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will,
> >etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same
> >action' ban, such as Red Herring's.
>
> I disagree.
> See section 3.18 of the FAQ.
>
> _______________________________
> 3.18 What does "Same Action" mean?
> Certain cards like Obedience, Change of Target, and Red Herring
> prohibit you from taking the "same action" again this turn. What does
> "same action" mean in these cases?
>
> For these cards, the "same action" will either be one of the basic
> cardless actions (ie hunt, bleed, rescue from torpor, commit
> diablerie, leave torpor) or a specific action by the title of the
> card used to take the action (ie call a specific vote, equip with a
> specific piece of equipment, employ a specific retainer, recruit a
> specific ally, bleed with a particular action card).
The bleed with a particular action card troubles me. The cardless
actions are "inherent" and are therefore the base action. Whether or
not you play an action card that "enhances" that action should not be
a consideration in the "Same Action" criteria. A bleed is a bleed is
a bleed. If it is done with Govern the Unaligned or Computer Hacking,
it is still a basic bleed that is enhanced via an action card.
Equipping, Recruiting and Political actions all require cards to be
performed and therefore are different actions.
However, on the subject of the "Same Action" issue, in the past it was
ruled that the political action card Praxis Seizure: (Insert City
Name) are not considered the same action. Does this still hold with
the new rules? This is stemming from Delaying Tactics.
Michael Eichler
LSJ
>
> On 28 Jul 2002 19:37:17 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
>
> >'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against
> >the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand,
> >regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card
> >in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and
> >doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905]
>
> Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19.
>
> >"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will,
> >etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same
> >action' ban, such as Red Herring's.
>
> I disagree.
Correct. Computer Hacking is not a cardless action, so cannot be the
inherent cardless action called "bleed".
Different actions (although, in this case, all of the same "type"):
inherent cardless bleed
Computer Hacking
Force of Will
Same actions:
Computer Hacking
Computer Hacking
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"Ramsteiner" <michael...@ramstein.af.mil> wrote in message
news:9c15fdd3.0207...@posting.google.com...
>
> The bleed with a particular action card troubles me. The cardless
> actions are "inherent" and are therefore the base action. Whether or
> not you play an action card that "enhances" that action should not be
> a consideration in the "Same Action" criteria. A bleed is a bleed is
> a bleed. If it is done with Govern the Unaligned or Computer Hacking,
> it is still a basic bleed that is enhanced via an action card.
I think you're confusing "same action" with "same type of action".
Most of the time, if you play by tournament rules, it's "same
type" that's relevant because that's what's restricted by NRA.
And "same type" is defined as including *all* bleeds as being
the same type, *all* equips as the same type, etc.
The "same action" restriction only cares about the *name* of an
action. For a carded bleed, the name of the action is "Computer
Hacking" or "Govern the Unaligned" or "Force of Will". A
"Computer Hacking" action is a different action than a "Govern
the Unaligned" action, even though they are both the same *type*
of action, namely bleed.
"Same action" restrictions only normally come up with certain
specific cards, eg Obedience, Red Herring, Change of Target, etc.
> Equipping, Recruiting and Political actions all require cards to be
> performed and therefore are different actions.
Any action that uses a card - whether it "requires" a card or not -
will be an action of that specific card's name.
> However, on the subject of the "Same Action" issue, in the past it was
> ruled that the political action card Praxis Seizure: (Insert City
> Name) are not considered the same action. Does this still hold with
> the new rules? This is stemming from Delaying Tactics.
Yes, it still holds. (And will hold under the new rules too, if
by that you mean the Camarilla Edition "no repeat actions" rule.
Praxis Seizure: Athens will remain a different action from Praxis
Seizure: Boston. However, they will both be "political actions"
and so the same vampire won't be able to take both actions in a
single turn.)
So if someone plays Delaying Tactics against your Praxis: Athens,
you can still have another vampire call Praxis: Boston. Just not
the Praxis: Athens again.
Josh
no nit unpicked
(well, maybe some nits)
Ramsteiner
With that in mind... Will V:TES tournament rules remain the same with
the NRA rule or will the NRA be dropped to follow the new rules being
posted on White Wolf's website?
Michael Eichler
James Coupe
<michael...@ramstein.af.mil> writes:
>With that in mind... Will V:TES tournament rules remain the same with
>the NRA rule or will the NRA be dropped to follow the new rules being
>posted on White Wolf's website?
Robert Goudie has noted that the Tournament Rules will probably be
updated to co-incide with the official usage date of The Camarilla
Edition, so that the V:EKN NRA rule is dropped.
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D you say one or two amusing things, but so
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 did Herman Goering (does that sidestep Godwin?)
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - SomeBlokeCalledRapunzelSyndrome