Cube Drafts for Vtes

[Jazzbeaux]

So has anyone tried this?

Basically Magic has a variant called Cube Drafts, where the cards in
the draft are selected before hand by the organiser rather than the
random selection of boosters. This pool of cards would be arranged by
the organiser and then arranged into 'booster' piles and played out as
normal. Obviously this works well for Magic with only five colours to
balance against each other, but would this work for Vtes?

You could use the preconstructed Starters as a base, but they tend to
have little overlap. So you would probably be better off using a base
set such as 3rd Edition or Keepers of Tradition (or even Jyhad/Vtes if
you have lots) as they focus on standard clans and use at least some
overlapping skills.

The next consideration would be the number of cards required, and
taking a pointer from sealed draft where the rules have various
combinations listed. For this I will take the point of no recursion,
which is 8 boosters, so each player will need a crypt of 8 and a deck
of 40. 8 standard boosters of 11 cards, multiplied by 5 players
(minimum) gives 440 cards, which would want to be divided at a 1:5
ratio of crypt to library. Thoughts would have to given as to the
proportions of card types, such as an even spread of vampire
capacities, numbers of combat cards or reaction cards etc. I have in
the past used the Anarch Revolt DeckBuilder, which has Legbiters Happy
Families calculator for creating a communal Jyhad deck of 36 Crypt and
270 library cards. So this should work, although you will need to
alter the number of skills used.

Now would all this trouble be worth the effort? I have no idea, so
guess the best way to find out is to test it. Anyone got a whole bunch
of cards to sort out into a Cube? What do you think, would it be
enjoyable, or painful? Would you want to play, or even want to set it
up?

Another idea is for White Wolf to release such a collection as a boxed
set. Reprint a bunch of cards, creates a 'complete game' to sell, and
gives a way of keeping cards on the retailers shelf.

Sam

[Vincent]

I've already worked on it, but never tried it for real.
Here's what I wrote some time ago (was june 2007) in French, I
translate it quicky.
The idea was to make cheap draft by buying 4 real boosters of 3rd
edition, and adding some fake reusable boosters.

Draft pack (or booster)

Those are packs of 11 library cards containing classical (common)
cards without any draft effet.
We'll use only the cards before the 3rd edition (essentially Camarilla
Edition or VTES edition) that will be easier to get back after the
draft, thanks to the inverted back of 3rd edition cards.
At the end of the draft, each player must therefore give back 4*11 =
44 cards.

We need 4 booster packs per player. With a maximum of 20 players, it
means 80 boosters = 880 cards.

The most spread disciplines between the 3rd edition vampires are (per
frequency order):

- auspex
- potence
- dominate
- obfuscate
- celerity
- presence
- animalism
- fortitude
- protean
- thaumaturgy
- vicissitude
- dementation
+ obtenetration (for lasombras)

Typical cards to keep for each discipline (62 different):
Auspex 5: Spirit's Touch, Precognition, Telepathic Counter, Enhanced
Senses, Anima Gathering
Potence 5: Undead strength, Thrown Sewer Lid, Shattering Blow, Thrown
Sewer Lid, Mighty Grapple
Dominate 5: Conditioning, Seduction, Govern the Unaligned, Threats,
Redirection
Obfuscate 5: Disguised Weapon, Hidden Lurker, Lost in Crowds, Cloak
the Gathering, Night Moves
Celerity 5: Acrobatics, Blur, Flash, Nimble Feet, Vampiric Speed
Presence 5: Enchant Kindred, Legal Manipulations, Social Charm, Aire
of Elation, Catatonic Fear
Animalisme 6: Aid from Bats, Army of Rats, Canine Horde, Cat's
Guidance, Drawing out the Beast, Rat's Warning
Fortitude 7: Indomitability, Skin of Steel, Unflinching Persistence,
Skin of Rock, Hidden Strength, Force of Will, Restoration
Protean 4: Claws of the Dead, Earth Meld, Form of the Ghost, Wolf
Claws
Thaumaturgy 5: Theft of Vitae, Blood Fury, Cryptic Mission, Walk of
Flame, Apportation
Vicissitude 3: Chiroptean Marauder, Changeling, Starvation of Marena
Dementation 2: Confusion, Kindred Spirits
Obtenetration 5: Eyes of the Night, Shadow Play, Shadow Strike,
Tenebrous Form, Arms of the Abyss

Disciplineless 9:
Brass Knuckles, Bum's Rush, Elder Intervention, Forgery, Harass,
Computer Hacking, Trap, Saturday Night Special, Redlist

Master : 4
Ascendance, Effective Management, Misdirection, Warning Sirens

Political action 5:
Conservative Agitation, Peace Treaty, Finding the Path, Snipe Hunt,
Year of Fortune

(Not kept :
Anarch 6 :
Smash and Grab, Skullduggery, Smoke of Mirrors, Diversion, Improvised
Tactics, The Mole)

The distribution is the following:

aus 5 * 18 = 90
pot 5 * 18 = 90
dom 5 * 18 = 90
obf 5 * 15 = 75
cel 5 * 15 = 75
pre 5 * 12 = 60
ani 6 * 12 = 72
for 7 * 10 = 70
pro 4 * 10 = 40
tha 5 * 8 = 40
vic 3 * 7 = 21
dem 2 * 7 = 14
obt 5 * 7 = 35
dless 9 * 6 = 54
mas 4 * 6 = 24
pol 5 * 6 = 30

Total : 880 cards

[Jazzbeaux]

> We need 4 booster packs per player. With a maximum of 20 players, it
> means 80 boosters = 880 cards.

> The distribution is the following:
>
> aus     5       * 18 = 90
> pot     5       * 18 = 90
> dom     5       * 18 = 90
> obf     5       * 15 = 75
> cel     5       * 15 = 75
> pre     5       * 12 = 60
> ani     6       * 12 = 72
> for     7       * 10 = 70
> pro     4       * 10 = 40
> tha     5       * 8 = 40
> vic     3       * 7 = 21
> dem     2       * 7 = 14
> obt     5       * 7 = 35
> dless   9       * 6 = 54
> mas     4       * 6 = 24
> pol     5       * 6 = 30

Nice, although surprising that you didn't think about the draft
effects. So what about your Crypt? Did you intend for that to be a
random draw or also a prepared draw?
I did a communal deck, from Jyhad cards, which worked well. I
unfortunately lost the electronic file for that, but still have the
deck at home - need to get it posted up here. I tweaked that slightly
by having two Crypt piles, low caps and high caps - draw two from each
at the beginning of the game. However with a draft that shouldn't be
a problem.

Sam

[Vincent]

At that time, it was designed to be a support to drafts using 3rd
edition boosters which cards do have a draft effect.
The crypt was to be built from the 3rd edition boosters also.

[brandonsantacruz]

On Apr 9, 2:41 am, Jazzbeaux <PrinceofB...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> So has anyone tried this?
>
> Basically Magic has a variant called Cube Drafts, where the cards in
> the draft are selected before hand by the organiser rather than the
> random selection of boosters.  This pool of cards would be arranged by
> the organiser and then arranged into 'booster' piles and played out as
> normal. Obviously this works well for Magic with only five colours to
> balance against each other, but would this work for Vtes?

We did a VTES sealed limited event using only VTES starters. It was...
different. If I had to do it again, I would stick with group 1
vampires(because they are so plentiful) and make packs out of a
somewhat random collection of cards using just those basic
disciplines; animalism, auspex, celerity, dominate, fortitude,
obfuscate, potence, presence, protean, thaumaturgy(am I missing any?).
With only those disciplines to support, you could do the math to see
how many vampires from that set have each discipline and add cards in
the appropriate proportions. Some combo cards could even be used(i.e.
forced march).

I don't think it would work with cards that people are paying for, but
it would depend on what the players were willing to do.

Brandon

[squidalot]

> The crypt was to be built from the 3rd edition boosters also.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Vincent really impressed with your work on this - Sam we could maybe
try this?
(certainly have oodles of these cards spare between us I would think)
We can refine the % as Brandon says depending on the crypt choice.

[alex fnurp]

This sounds like a really fun idea! I have to try and introduce this
to our thursday plays :)

[Jeff Kuta]

On Apr 9, 2:41 am, Jazzbeaux <PrinceofB...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

What is the problem you are trying to solve? Randomness of packs
leading to unfocused draft decks?

That other game allows players to add land to their decks to fix mana
ratios. Why not bring a bunch of discipline cards so vampires will be
able to play the cards which are drafted? Let each Meth pick 1-2
discipline cards (or Sanguine Instructions) to increase focus.

If you wanted to take this a step further, you could make mini-packs
of two cards--one discipline card and one library card--for Meths to
add. I think these should be non-ousting staple cards in order to keep
things somewhat balanced. For example:

Discipline Card / Library Card
Animalism / Aid from Bats
Auspex / Enhanced Senses
Celerity / Flash
Dominate / Seduction
Fortitude / Skin of Steel
Obfuscate / Lost in Crowds
Potence / Undead Strength
Presence / Majesty
Protean / Earth Meld
Thaumaturgy / Theft of Vitae

Alternately, if someone was happy with their Crypt/Library balance
with respect to disciplines, you could add non-discipline based mini-
packs like 1x Computer Hacking and 1x Weighted Walking Stick. Just
another idea to help people create decks which are more focused but
won't violate the basic premise of draft too much.

Jeff

[squidalot]

> Jeff- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Jeff,

I think it's to do several things:

1. Allow multiple consistent drafts from a finite set of cards.
2. Remove some of the luck from drafting.
3. Remove clumping of boosters (especially with 3rd).

I don't think that discpline cards are actually needed in draft
(especially if using sets with draft outferiors) as it's fairly easy
to get 30-40 useful cards if drafting 6 or more boosters.

[alex fnurp]

> Hi Jeff,
>
> I think it's to do several things:
>
> 1. Allow multiple consistent drafts from a finite set of cards.
> 2. Remove some of the luck from drafting.
> 3. Remove clumping of boosters (especially with 3rd).
>
> I don't think that discpline cards are actually needed in draft
> (especially if using sets with draft outferiors) as it's fairly easy
> to get 30-40 useful cards if drafting 6 or more boosters.

It also lets you strategize more and help people out, since you know
the boosters beforehand you can talk later why card X or Y is a first
pick over Z and
become better as a playgroup at drafting :)

[Vincent]

It's also a way to play cheap drafts with only 4 boosters to buy.

[Jazzbeaux]

> What is the problem you are trying to solve? Randomness of packs
> leading to unfocused draft decks?

No problem at all. Just an alternative method of drafting. Booster
Draft is good, and the challenge then is making a deck from what you
find. This would create a fixed set of cards to draft from, using
those piles of cards that we all own.

> Alternately, if someone was happy with their Crypt/Library balance
> with respect to disciplines, you could add non-discipline based mini-
> packs like 1x Computer Hacking and 1x Weighted Walking Stick. Just
> another idea to help people create decks which are more focused but
> won't violate the basic premise of draft too much.

Certainly not trying to replace Booster Draft which works well. Guess
you could do 'Draft packs' which have generically useful cards such as
the ones you list or some reactions, but as I said, the challenge is
finding ways around the usual problems with unusual cards in Booster
Draft.

Sam

[Jazzbeaux]

> Vincent really impressed with your work on this - Sam we could maybe
> try this?
> (certainly have oodles of these cards spare between us I would think)
> We can refine the % as Brandon says depending on the crypt choice.

Might be able to manage something, but no promises.
What with this and Phased Motion, Bath could become the alternative
Vtes tournament location. :)

Sam

[Jazzbeaux]

Have finally managed to get the list of the communal deck I put
together.

Deck Name : Cube Draft PMF
Author : Sam Marsh
Description :
54x Master
33x Auspex
27x Dominate
24x Animalism
24x Obfuscate
21x Fortitude
18x Potence
18x Celerity
15x Presence
12x Protean
9x Thaumaturgy
45x disciplineless

30 Vamps, 300 Library = 30 'boosters'

Crypt [30 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 10 average: 5.4
------------------------------------------------------------

1x Angus the Unruled 10 ANI PRO cel for pot justicar Gangrel:
1
1x Democritus 10 DOM PRE aus cel for justicar Ventrue:
1
1x Ulugh Beg, The Wat 10 AUS DOM THA cel for pot justicar Tremere:
1
1x Cardano 9 DOM FOR THA ani aus cel prince Tremere:
1
1x Ingrid Rossler 9 ANI FOR PRO dom prince Gangrel:
2
1x Sheldon, Lord of t 9 ANI AUS OBF POT for justicar
Nosferatu:1
1x Ebanezer Roush 8 ANI OBF POT pro
Nosferatu:1
1x Selma the Repugnan 8 OBF POT ani for prince
Nosferatu:1
1x Gilbert Duane 7 AUS DOM OBF prince
Malkavian:1
1x Gunther, Beast Lor 7 ANI aus for pro Gangrel:
1
1x Timothy Crowley 7 FOR PRE ani dom prince Ventrue:
1
1x Ozmo 6 AUS dom obf
Malkavian:1
1x Rake 6 PRE aus cel pot prince Brujah:
1
1x Thomas Thorne 6 DOM ani aus cel tha Tremere:
1
1x Melissa Barton 5 cel dom for pre Ventrue:
1
1x Sabine Lafitte 5 aus dom pot tha Tremere:
1
1x Zebulon 5 OBF aus dom pro
Malkavian:1
1x Agrippina 4 OBF pot
Nosferatu:1
1x Courtland Leighton 4 dom for pre Ventrue:
1
1x Demetrius Slater 4 aus cel pre
Toreador:1
1x Dorian Strack 4 AUS cel
Toreador:1
1x Colin Flynn 3 aus cel
Toreador:1
1x Dollface 3 aus obf
Malkavian:1
1x Uma Hatch 3 cel pre Brujah:
1
1x Angel 2 cel Brujah:
1
1x Dieter Kleist 2 aus
Toreador:1
1x Lupo 2 pot Brujah:
1
1x Vliam Andor 2 ani Gangrel:
1
1x Igo the Hungry 1 pre pro Caitiff:
1
1x Smudge the Ignored 1 Caitiff:
1

Library [300 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------

Action [34]
3x Army of Rats
1x Blood Bond
2x Bum's Rush
2x Computer Hacking
2x Cryptic Mission
2x Enchant Kindred
4x Govern the Unaligned
2x Graverobbing
1x Legal Manipulations
3x Night Moves
2x Pulse of the Canaille
2x Rampage
3x Rapid Healing
3x Restoration
2x Social Charm

Action Modifier [39]
2x Bewitching Oration
7x Bonding
1x Bribes
2x Change of Target
3x Cloak the Gathering
3x Conditioning
2x Earth Control
3x Faceless Night
2x Hidden Lurker
2x Lost in Crowds
4x Seduction
4x Spying Mission
4x Threats

Combat [84]
2x Acrobatics
3x Aid from Bats
2x Aura Reading
3x Blur
1x Burst of Sunlight
2x Canine Horde
1x Claws of the Dead
2x Concealed Weapon
1x Conquer the Beast
2x Disguised Weapon
2x Dodge
2x Drawing Out the Beast
2x Earth Meld
2x Fake Out
1x Fast Hands
3x Flash
2x Gleam of Red Eyes
5x Indomitability
1x Infernal Pursuit
2x Lucky Blow
3x Majesty
2x Mighty Grapple
2x Read Intentions
2x Shattering Blow
3x Sideslip
5x Skin of Steel
3x Theft of Vitae
4x Thrown Gate
2x Thrown Sewer Lid
5x Undead Strength
5x Unflinching Persistence
2x Vampiric Speed
2x Vanish from the Mind's Eye
1x Well-Aimed Car
2x Wolf Claws

Equipment [16]
3x .44 Magnum
2x Deer Rifle
1x Flak Jacket
1x IR Goggles
1x Laptop Computer
3x Saturday-Night Special
3x Sawed-Off Shotgun
2x Sport Bike

Master [54]
6x Ascendance
1x Barrens, The
12x Blood Doll
6x Deal with the Devil
5x Effective Management
1x Elder Library
1x Elysium: The Arboretum
1x Fame
4x Gird Minions
1x Haven Uncovered
1x KRCG News Radio
1x Metro Underground
8x Minion Tap
1x Mob Connections
1x Police Department
1x Powerbase: Chicago
1x Rack, The
1x Sudden Reversal
1x Vulnerability

Political Action [11]
1x Ancilla Empowerment
1x Autarkis Persecution
1x Consanguineous Condemnation
3x Conservative Agitation
3x Kine Resources Contested
1x Parity Shift
1x Rumors of Gehenna

Reaction [58]
3x Cats' Guidance
2x Delaying Tactics
2x Dread Gaze
7x Enhanced Senses
1x Political Backlash
3x Rat's Warning
2x Second Tradition: Domain
4x Spirit's Touch
1x Surprise Influence
6x Telepathic Counter
7x Telepathic Misdirection
20x Wake with Evening's Freshness

Retainer [4]
1x Owl Companion
3x Raven Spy

Haven't tried this as a Cube Draft, but it worked well enough as a
communal deck, with the proviso that we split the crypt into high and
low caps before starting and drew two from each.

Sam

[librarian]

Jazzbeaux wrote:
> Have finally managed to get the list of the communal deck I put
> together.
>
>

> 30 Vamps, 300 Library = 30 'boosters'
>

My only quibble is that all boosters have at least 2 vamps in them,
sometimes 3. So I would include 60 or 90 vamps.

best -

chris

[Jazzbeaux]

Absolutely, this deck was created for another purpose and is being
retrofitted to Cube Drafts.

Sam

[Jazzbeaux]

On Apr 15, 5:21 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> -3 Bonding +3 Deflection
>  -1 well-aimed car +1 Tasha Morgan
>  -4 gird minions +1 each of 4 different hunting grounds
>  -1 Deer Rifle +1 Laptop
> -1 Con. Condemnation +1 Con. Boon
> -2 Sawed-Off Shotgun +1 Flamethrower +1 Bastard Sword
> -1 Saturday Night Special +1 Hawg/IR goggles
> -3 Rapid Healing +2 Arson +1 Legal Manipulation
> -1 Rampage +1 Computer Hacking
> -1 Graverobbing +1 Dominate Kine
> -1 Shattering Blow +1 Torn Signpost
> -6 Deal with the Devil +2 Bum's Rush +1 Haven Uncovered +1 Fame +1
> Information Highway +1 Fragment of the Book of Nod

All good changes, and something that needs to be looked at. This deck
was designed as a stand alone communal deck so needed to be generally
playable. Using it for Draft will allow cards to be cherry picked and
so can have more specific things - such as the Hunting Grounds.

> 12 Blood Dolls and 8 Minion Taps seem really high for a draft, as do
> the 5 Effective Managements(how many vampires will you really have?)
> and 6 Ascendence. How about some short term or protracted investments?
> Maybe some Misdirection?
>
> Even with these changes, dominate comes out really strong. That's the
> extent of my suggestions for now. I really like the idea of just
> having a set of cards you "draft" from because it's much less effort
> and money than it usually takes.

Exactly, and could make a good boxed set to sell. All of the above,
reprinted as a complete set. Options to play repeated Drafts or makes
decks or whatever, all good.

Sam

[librarian]

Also could be a good starter for a VTES LCG.

best -

chris