Pack Alpha Ponderings
XZealot
permanent +1 strength, but Potence does not?
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Dai
Animalism has a card that gives you a permanent +1 bleed, but Dominate
does not.
Animalism has a card that gives you a permanent +1 intercept... while
Auspex has a card that gives another Vampire permanent intercept.
Oh wait. Are you saying Potence blows? I'd completely agree with that.
Cheers,
Dai
Kushiel
> Oh wait. Are you saying Potence blows? I'd completely agree with that.
Impending Bakija impact in 3...2...1...
Seriously, what are you talking about here? How does Potence blow? It's
the best discipline there is for hurting folks.
John Eno
James Coupe
XZealot <xze...@cox.net> writes:
>Do you think that it strange that Animalism has a card that gives you a
>permanent +1 strength, but Potence does not?
Kinda. But using close-range Potence combat, Potence has a much better
pro-combat card available to it than Animalism - Immortal Grapple.
Animalism has Scorpion Sting and DotB/Terror Frenzy, that sort of thing,
but that doesn't annihilate S:CE properly. For that, you need to go off
into Dog Pack or Psyche! or something appropriate to the Animalism
vampires you're using. Or swarm Animalism, of course.
So it's fine for Animalism to have cute toys in that area when it lacks
the IG clone, or whatever.
Also, if you go back to Jyhad/V:TES, Animalism seemed to be the
discipline where you take an action to get a toy - Raven Spy, Army of
Rats, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Owl Companion - more than other
disciplines. It's not really out of character. And Potence is pretty
much all transient cards.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Dai
My main issues with Potence are follows:
1) It is basically only a combat discipline, the only other effects it
provides is burning locations and outferiors such as Tangle Atropos'
Hand and Hourglass of the Mind.
For me, the key cards in Potence are:
Pushing the Limit
Disarm
Immortal Grapple
Torn Signpost
2) Pushing the Limit and Disarm are good at inferior and for a small
cap, but Disarm requires to be combo'd with another combat card to
work. As Potence provides no maneuvers outside of Thrown Gate, all
these cards can be defeated by a maneuver. However, a small cap is
better off with a .44 Magnum for combat.
3) Immortal Grapple is a way of beating S: CE and other non- hand
damage strikes, but doesn't work with weapons and is defeated by
maneuvers. Because very few cards give permanent bonuses to hand
strikes, you also need another transient card to actually do damage. So
you need Grapple, a card that increases hand damage, and possibly
maneuvers, and forsake weapons, in order for Immortal Grapple to work.
By contrast, there are several other discipline cards that defeat S: CE
that also work with Weapons such as Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking,
Blessings of Chaos and well, The Jones. Torn Signpost sucks at inferior
without presses or additional strikes.
4) Fortitude, on the other hand, completely trounces potence combat.
5) Compare Potence's options to other "top combat cards" such as
Thaumaturgy with Theft of Vitae/ Weather Control/ Burst of Sunlight,
Protean with Claws of the Dead, Animalism with Carrion Crows and Pack
Alpha/ Retainers, Vic with Breath of the Dragon and Chotperan Marauder,
and guns. Theft/ Weather Control/ Carrion Crows all beat some forms of
damage prevention. All these cards don't require another transient
combat card to combo with it. Most work at Range or can substitute as a
Maneuver. For me, these are the top of the line combat cards because
they don't require a combo, and they are followed by other cards that
can torpor an opposing vampire by themselves such as Conflagration and
Entombment. And all of these cards are in disciplines that have great
actions, modifiers and reactions as well.
6) So I basically see Potence as a waste on a large vampire because it
only provides combat, it needs another combat discipline to provide
maneuvers/ combos, the cards that are optimal for a large vampire
(Grapple and Torn Signpost) are bad for a low cap with pot and no other
combat disciplines, all its effects are transient, and it provides no
answers to either fortitude or aggravated hand damage. So it is not the
first combat discipline I want to see on a large vampire since it needs
another combat discipline to get any real value out of putting a 7-10
pool investment into combat repeatedly. A large vampire with Potence as
the only combat discipline is not viable in combat, let alone optimal.
That said, I like the Potence/ Presence duals such as Iron Glare,
Inspire Greatness, and even Iron Heart. But the problems are its
terrible as a standalone combat discipline and less than optimal
otherwise since its transient and relies on drawing into combos. On my
large vampire, I want disciplines that give permanent combat bonuses,
don't rely on combos and provides better defensive capabilities than
Immortal Grapple does.
Cheers,
Dai
Johannes Walch
> For me, the key cards in Potence are:
>
> Pushing the Limit
> Disarm
> Immortal Grapple
> Torn Signpost
Please add Earthshock here. It´s an amazingly good card.
> 2) Pushing the Limit and Disarm are good at inferior and for a small
> cap, but Disarm requires to be combo'd with another combat card to
> work. As Potence provides no maneuvers outside of Thrown Gate, all
> these cards can be defeated by a maneuver. However, a small cap is
> better off with a .44 Magnum for combat.
Moot. Most of the disciplines need to combo with another discipline to
work if not played in a strict weenie deck. And we know that weenie
Potence works.
> 3) Immortal Grapple is a way of beating S: CE and other non- hand
> damage strikes, but doesn't work with weapons and is defeated by
> maneuvers.
Wrong. See Earthshock. It´s really useful to kill vamps with guns,
because they cant even dodge.
> Because very few cards give permanent bonuses to hand
> strikes, you also need another transient card to actually do damage. So
> you need Grapple, a card that increases hand damage, and possibly
> maneuvers, and forsake weapons, in order for Immortal Grapple to work.
> By contrast, there are several other discipline cards that defeat S: CE
> that also work with Weapons such as Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking,
> Blessings of Chaos and well, The Jones. Torn Signpost sucks at inferior
> without presses or additional strikes.
Immortal Grapple defeats S:CE proactively while the other ones (at least
the good ones) do it reactively (Psyche and TT). So if your opponent
follows up with enough S:CE you are still hosed. With an IG you can be
"sure" (well as sure as it gets in a 5 player game) to dunk a S:CE vamp.
--
johannes walch
Dasein
> 1) It is basically only a combat discipline,
So is Celerity... but I don't think anyone would say Celerity is crap.
The only decent non-combat card Celerity has is Flurry of Action, but
it's still a great combat discipline.
> For me, the key cards in Potence are:
> Pushing the Limit
> Disarm
> Immortal Grapple
> Torn Signpost
Those are all good cards. Pushing the Limit however is only really good
in a high-prevent environment. Otherwise you're probably better off
with U.S. Although I'm not a potence expert so Peter B might want to
step in here?
> 2) Pushing the Limit and Disarm are good at inferior and for a small cap,
You're telling me. A 1 cap with potence can rush, grapple and with
EITHER U.S. or signpost, take down say an 11 cap, via Disarm. Dodge or
S:CE won't defend against that. You tell me other disciplines that can
do that.
> but Disarm requires to be combo'd with another combat card to work.
So? wow this card that costs nothing and works just fine at inferior
and can bin any vampire in the game, needs another card to combo... are
you surprised? Actually with a +1 strength minion, OR a minion with
Depravity, it doesn't even need another card. But I'm guessing you
already knew that but just forgot about it for the purposes of your
weak argument?
>As Potence provides no maneuvers outside of Thrown Gate,
Why on earth would you need Potence for maneuvers? You can get
maneuvers from:
disciplineless combat cards (Fake Out for either, High Ground or
Backstep for long), equipment (IR Goggles), retainers (Jackie Therman),
other permanents (Survivalist, a couple of other obscure ones), or
other disciplines that are commonly found with potence, um I don't
know, maybe Celerity and Obfuscate? (both in-clan for major potence
hurty clans).
Not even to mention Drawing out the Beast, which prevents the other
minion from going to long i.e. sets combat at Close/Grapple range
(unless they have set-range ability e.g. Caliean or Selective Silence).
> all these cards can be defeated by a maneuver. However, a small cap is
> better off with a .44 Magnum for combat.
Why? I shoot Arika for 2. She plays Majesty. Great. Maybe I Psyche. I
go to long and shoots for 2. She nods. Woopee.
As opposed to, rush Arika, grapple, undead strength, disarm. other
potence weenie eats Arika. Sound better to you? Hey guns can be great,
don't get me wrong. Gun combat is strong. Potence combat is strong.
Each has advantages and disadvantages compared to the other. But to say
"Guns is better than potence" is a weak argument because it assumes you
don't look at the real strength of Potence (i.e. Grapple *actually
beats* S:CE, Psyche doesn't really at all; Disarm lets you bin someone
regardless of how much blood they have left) and ignore the weaknesses
of Guns combat (i.e. completely and utterly hosed by Drawing out the
Beast, pretty badly screwed by any sort of steal/destroy equipment
cards, really requires multiple add. strikes / psyches to take people
down, requires pool cost to get going, etc. etc.)
> 3) Immortal Grapple is a way of beating S: CE and other non- hand
> damage strikes, but doesn't work with weapons
You're damn right it doesn't work with weapons... that's a PLUS, not a
minus, dude. It stops ANYONE using weapons. What does your clever
gun-toting dude do when he gets pinged by an Ivory Bow? Hope you have a
sideslip or you go to the bin. Grapple gets around all this stuff. It
sets combat to a fundamental level: hand strike vs hand strike. If you
strike is bigger, you come off better. There are far fewer risks. The
only risk really is aggropoke, and that's one of the rarest combat
modules around (mainly because it is complete and utter crap against
every other combat module in the game except for grapple potence).
> and is defeated by maneuvers.
Did I mention Potence has some of the best ranged strike cards in the
game?
> Because very few cards give permanent bonuses to hand strikes,
True. But there are also lots of vampires with +1 hand damage. Many of
them have potence.
> you also need another transient card to actually do damage. So
> you need Grapple, a card that increases hand damage, and possibly maneuvers,
Are you aware that Earthshock does strength-based range damage? So a
deck with a good amount of Torn Signpost, Grapple and Earthshock will
be looking pretty good. Tear up Signpost, Grapple if close and smack,
or Earthshock if long. Seems like a pretty simple combo to me. How is
that more clumsy than say "hope for concealed weapon and magnum, pay 2
pool, hope they don't have a Drawing out the Beast or I am dead, hope
they don't have Carrion Crows or Canine Hordes or I am in trouble, use
manuever, hope they don't manuever back, shoot for a big 2, hope for an
additional strike and/or Psyche, and if I psyche hope they don't have a
second majesty". True Majesty beats earthshock if they can set to long
but hey Potence can't quite do EVERYTHING.
> By contrast, there are several other discipline cards that defeat S: CE
> that also work with Weapons such as Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking,
> Blessings of Chaos and well, The Jones.
That statement shows you don't understand the power of grapple. Psyche
does NOT defeat S:CE. It starts a new combat. There's a difference. If
you don't understand that difference, you need to play a lot more
combat. In case you can't figure it out, the difference is this:
Grapple stops the Majesty BEING PLAYED AT ALL. Psyche just gives them
another chance to play another Majesty. This difference is VERY
important.
> Torn Signpost sucks at inferior without presses or additional strikes.
Not really. If it lets you do 2 damage as compared to their 1 (which
often it might), it lets you Disarm them.
Grapple beats nearly every single strike card in the game, for NO cost,
at INFERIOR.
Disarm lets you bin ANY minion in the game, at NO cost, at INFERIOR.
Compare to Celerity at inferior with a gun. Wow Psyche gives you a
press... scary!!!
> 4) Fortitude, on the other hand, completely trounces potence combat.
That's not entirely fair, because Fortitude trounces just about every
single combat module in the whole game, except the following:
Quietus unpreventable
Thaumaturgy steal / blood punches
Animalism multiple sources, i.e. carrion crows / murder / bats /
drawing etc (which Fortitude actually can beat if it uses Soak)
You seen a gun deck go up against someone with a bunch of Skin of
Steel? pfft. Yes potence can't do anything to it either, but if that's
your argument then by the same argument guns combat is weak, and you
said it was strong.
> Theft/ Weather Control/ Carrion Crows all beat some forms of damage prevention.
So? They also all have disadvantages. Theft can't actually bin anyone.
Weather control damages YOU (something I don't really like happening in
combat). I will admit Crows is a great card, pity it is totally foiled
by S:CE... but wait what if you grappled someone and played Crows in
the same combat? To do that you'd need um someone with Animalism and um
Potence... oh wow the Nos/!Nos.
> Entombment. And all of these cards are in disciplines that have great
> actions, modifiers and reactions as well.
hell I wouldn't mind if Potence got some intercept or stealth or
something but I dont' think it's too likely. If anything it would
become too powerful.
> 6) So I basically see Potence as a waste on a large vampire because it
> only provides combat, it needs another combat discipline to provide maneuvers/ combos,
Complete crap. Potence is the true combat power, the icing on the cake.
It's what lets your FOR/NEC vampire grapple people before they play
Dead Hand and prevent... and then Disarm of course. It's what lets your
CEL vampire fling lids once he's at long, instead of stuffing around
with Projectile or some rubbish. It's what lets your ANI/PRO vampire
grapple after he's drawn your beast... and then punch you for 3 agg.
Potence turns fun / whacky combat into power combat. Combat that wins.
Combat that consistently bins as opposed to chuck lots of cards on the
table and then watches a Majesty get played. The scariest combat deck
I've come across is group 1 gangrel with potence. It tears people to
pieces. it wins tournaments. it draws your beast, grapples you, punches
you for big agg damage and prevents all of yours. I've seen Tremere
thaum combat and Tore gun combat go up against that and it's a joke.
The potence is what REALLY makes it work, i.e. punch for 3 agg instead
of 1 agg, and most importantly, stops you from playing dodge / majesty
/ etc. See Wynn multi-rush decks. how good would they be without
potence?
> the cards that are optimal for a large vampire
> (Grapple and Torn Signpost) are bad for a low cap with pot and no other
> combat disciplines,
Complete crap. Potence at inferior is one of the most dangerous combat
disciplines in the game. A 1-cap with pot can trash any vampire in the
game by rushing grappling undead strength disarm. Maneuevers can be
provided by a hundred sources as I mentioned before.
> all its effects are transient, and it provides no answers to either fortitude
Fortitude is good against potence, but last time I checked, Grapple
provided a press at super and prevent decks don't like presses. But
seriously, if your best argument against potence is "the one discipline
that is pretty much designed to stop it (fortitude) can like, stop it",
then your'e obviously blowing hot air.
> or aggravated hand damage.
True dat. It doesn't like aggropoke. Potence has weaknesses, don't get
me wrong, but so does every module.
> So it is not the
> first combat discipline I want to see on a large vampire since it needs
> another combat discipline to get any real value out of putting a 7-10
> pool investment into combat repeatedly. A large vampire with Potence as
> the only combat discipline is not viable in combat, let alone optimal.
I can't think of an expensive vampire with POT and NO other disciplines
that are useful in combat. Even disciplines like Auspex or obfuscate
that are not generally considered combat have some very useful tools
for potence combat (e.g. Aura Reading, Tracking, Swallowed, Sacrificial
Lamb for after they've been binned, etc.)
Presence is possibly the only discipline that provides no useful tools
for offensive combat, but stacks well with potence through Iron Glare
(and can also be used with CEL for the Majesty / Psyche
multi-rush-without-freakdrive strategy).
> Inspire Greatness, and even Iron Heart. But the problems are its
> terrible as a standalone combat discipline
It's possibly the best standalone combat disipline in the game. Look at
Thaumaturgy as a standalone combat discipline. Put a weenie with tha
against a weenie with pot and I'll tell you who I'm putting my money on
to win. Ani is good combat at basic, protean can be good at basic in
the right situations (i.e. against pot), abombwe is appparently good at
basic, everything else is pretty crap at basic . A weenie with basic
cel and no gun is a complete joke in combat.
> and less than optimal
> otherwise since its transient and relies on drawing into combos.
So does thaum. so does Cel. Quietus is one of the most dangerous combat
disciplines around and relies on lengthy chains of combos. Guns combat
relies on very specific combos (both to get out the gun AND to make
effective use of it in combat).
Potence is less combo reliant than many other combat modules, works
amazingly well at basic, works even better at super, can beat nearly
every form of combat defense in the game, and can bin any vampire on
any amount of blood with one card at basic for no cost. If you think
that's crap, you have some very weird ideas about this game.
Peter D Bakija
On Nov 28, 7:20 am, "Dai" <kakitada...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1) It is basically only a combat discipline, the only other effects it
> provides is burning locations and outferiors such as Tangle Atropos'
> Hand and Hourglass of the Mind.
Yes. Yes it is. It is the most efficient combat discipline, so it makes
sense that it doesn't actually do much else.
> 2) Pushing the Limit and Disarm are good at inferior and for a small
> cap, but Disarm requires to be combo'd with another combat card to
> work. As Potence provides no maneuvers outside of Thrown Gate, all
> these cards can be defeated by a maneuver. However, a small cap is
> better off with a .44 Magnum for combat.
Unless, ya know, you make a deck to be good at fighting with only
Potence. a .44 Magnum is expensive and easily foiled/stolen. A pot
weenie with a Back Step and a Sewer Lid (or Celetity and a Sewer Lid)
is much more efficient for causing damage.
> 3) Immortal Grapple is a way of beating S: CE and other non- hand
> damage strikes, but doesn't work with weapons and is defeated by
> maneuvers.
It doesn't need to work with weapons, as IG comes with Torn Signpost
and Undead Strength. It is defeated by manuvers, yes, but manuvers are
easily grafted into a deck that wants to use Potence, as the main POT
clans come with either celerity, obfuscate, and obtenebration, all of
which come with free manuvers. If you are going pure weenie POT, you
have access to Fake Out if you want to use close range combat (although
presses are usually sufficient), or you can cut to the chase and go for
flung junk and use Increased/Gate/Backstep/Lid tech.
> Because very few cards give permanent bonuses to hand
> strikes, you also need another transient card to actually do damage.
Sure. Which is why combat decks use a lot of cards.
> So
> you need Grapple, a card that increases hand damage, and possibly
> maneuvers, and forsake weapons, in order for Immortal Grapple to work.
Which you do if you are using IG. And you say "forgo weapons" as if
weapons are generally worth using.
> By contrast, there are several other discipline cards that defeat S: CE
> that also work with Weapons such as Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking,
> Blessings of Chaos and well, The Jones.
All of which are harder to use and more expensive or conditional.
Again, you are mentioning weapons, as if weapons are actually worth
using. I agree that IG makes weapons less worth using. But that is a
problem with weapons, not IG.
> Torn Signpost sucks at inferior without presses or additional strikes.
So you use presses or additonal strikes. Which are conviniently easily
available to vampire with Potence.
> 4) Fortitude, on the other hand, completely trounces potence combat.
Yes, it does. It does that to pretty much all combat. It is important
for combat to be trumpable. But Fortitude prevention is also completely
reactive and jams your hand if you don't get in fights and don't take
damage. Potence is completely pro-active.
> 5) Compare Potence's options to other "top combat cards" such as
> Thaumaturgy with Theft of Vitae/ Weather Control/ Burst of Sunlight,
> Protean with Claws of the Dead, Animalism with Carrion Crows and Pack
> Alpha/ Retainers, Vic with Breath of the Dragon and Chotperan Marauder,
> and guns.
Potence, as a combat strategy, is more efficient and generally better
than all of these, as it is cheaper, more difficult to avoid, leaves
you with no blood, and comes with small vampires. Thaumaturgy Combat is
expensive and easy to foil (you can Telepathic Tracking the S:CE, but
only if you also have AUS, and then you have to hope they don't have
another S:CE card). Protean combat has no answer at all to S:CE (well,
ok, Dog Pack. But I have never seen a successful Dog Pack combat deck.
Ever.) Vicissitude is likewise foiled by S:CE unless you also have AUS
for Telepathic Tracking, which is, just like Psyche!, a battle of "who
has more of the necessary card in hand". Guns are expensive, you have
to get them in your minions (requiring equip actions or Concealed
infrastructure), and fragile (Canine Horde and Fast Hands should be
becoming more and more common, what with the Heart being so popular
these days). And also easily foiled by cards like Drawing and, well,
IG.
> Theft/ Weather Control/ Carrion Crows all beat some forms of
> damage prevention. All these cards don't require another transient
> combat card to combo with it. Most work at Range or can substitute as a
> Maneuver. For me, these are the top of the line combat cards because
> they don't require a combo, and they are followed by other cards that
> can torpor an opposing vampire by themselves such as Conflagration and
> Entombment. And all of these cards are in disciplines that have great
> actions, modifiers and reactions as well.
And yet Potence combat is fairly successful as a main line combat
strategy, where say, Thaumaturgy isn't so much.
> 6) So I basically see Potence as a waste on a large vampire because it
> only provides combat, it needs another combat discipline to provide
> maneuvers/ combos, the cards that are optimal for a large vampire
> (Grapple and Torn Signpost) are bad for a low cap with pot and no other
> combat disciplines, all its effects are transient, and it provides no
> answers to either fortitude or aggravated hand damage. So it is not the
> first combat discipline I want to see on a large vampire since it needs
> another combat discipline to get any real value out of putting a 7-10
> pool investment into combat repeatedly. A large vampire with Potence as
> the only combat discipline is not viable in combat, let alone optimal.
But there are no large vampires with only Potence as a combat
discipline. Large vampires have other disciplines by defenition, and
likely, whatever those disciplines are will support the Potence.
> That said, I like the Potence/ Presence duals such as Iron Glare,
> Inspire Greatness, and even Iron Heart. But the problems are its
> terrible as a standalone combat discipline and less than optimal
> otherwise since its transient and relies on drawing into combos.
So you build your deck to draw into combos. Which means using a lot of
combat cards. Which works fine.
> On my
> large vampire, I want disciplines that give permanent combat bonuses,
> don't rely on combos and provides better defensive capabilities than
> Immortal Grapple does.
You seem overly fond of permanent abilities, which, while certainly
handy, are not the be all and end all of the game. Decks built on
transient effects work just as well as decks built on permanent
effects, and often better.
-Peter
CthuluKitty
> >
> > Pushing the Limit
> > Disarm
> > Immortal Grapple
> > Torn Signpost
>
> Please add Earthshock here. It´s an amazingly good card.
No it isn't. Remove Earthshock and Pushing the Limit, and add Thrown
Sewer Lid. If you really need to replace Pushing the Limit with
another strike effect go with Mighty Grapple. Otherwise, potence decks
can get along just fine with only TS, IG, Disarm, and Lid.
Seriously there is no discipline in the game that can as much damage as
potence with as small an investment in blood and cards. Other people
have already typed more words about this that I care to.
Don't make me hit you with my Signpost.
Peter D Bakija
On Nov 28, 10:14 am, "CthuluKitty" <vtanarch...@riseup.net> wrote:
> No it isn't. Remove Earthshock and Pushing the Limit, and add Thrown
> Sewer Lid. If you really need to replace Pushing the Limit with
> another strike effect go with Mighty Grapple. Otherwise, potence decks
> can get along just fine with only TS, IG, Disarm, and Lid.
While I'm more pro Earthshock than Jesse is here, it is still pretty
narrow in use (I'd never use it as a main line effect, and would only
use a few in a given deck). The good Potence cards tend to be:
-Immortal Grapple
-Torn Signpost
-Undead Strength
-Disarm
-Sewer Lid
With the less often generally useful, but still pretty good cards
being:
-Mighty Grapple
-Thrown Gate
-Increased Strength
Then the rest of them tend to either be fairly narrow in use
(Earthshock, Pushing the Limit, Fists of Death, Stunt Bike, Shattering
Blow) or kind of wallpapery (Sacrament, Burning Wrath, Death of my
Concience).
-Peter
dome
it burns.
Potence is good, but hard to play. You need a steady hand and a sharp
mind, as with any other combo based thing, the problem with potence is
that it doesn't do direct pool damage, and gets hammered by fortitude.
The second worst problem with potence is the inevitable desire to beat
up the first thing that comes your way(which tends to be the cross table
guy or your predator). There is no setite in the world that tempts as
strong as a good red potence hand :|.
P.S. I despise the weenie potence decks and the noobs playing them. But
on the other hand, it's a pleasure to watch a good player play a potence
deck, it tends to look so easy as they go through their deck as if it
was butter. But it still is an extremely hard discipline, and not for
everyone, especially not inexpirienced guys wanting to beat up stuff.
That shit annoys me to hell.
CthuluKitty
> narrow in use (I'd never use it as a main line effect, and would only
> use a few in a given deck). The good Potence cards tend to be:
Being more pro-Earthshock than me is easy. If you've never heard of
VTES you're more pro-Earthshock than me.
I hate that card. hate hate hate hate hate.
> -Immortal Grapple
> -Torn Signpost
> -Undead Strength
> -Disarm
> -Sewer Lid
Hmm. I'm not totally sold on Undead Strength. If you're playing
either Signpost or US then the former is generally preferable due to
the many presses potence can generate and the possibility of gaining
additional strikes. You can stack them to be sure, but that tends to
get inefficient in terms of card economy.
I prefer Mighty Grapple, since I'm willing to do 1 less damage and get
a press.
Of course my primary experience with heavy use of potence is with the
Gargoyles, where I use Pounce intead of a potence strike. Pounce is
nice in that it hoses additional strikes, and Ublo-Satha's supporting
cast is lean on superior POT. I'm also more willing to press than
others because of the massive damage prevention I tend to play, and
play against.
> With the less often generally useful, but still pretty good cards
> being:
>
> -Mighty Grapple
> -Thrown Gate
> -Increased Strength
I wasn't even thinking about Thrown Gate and Increased Strength, since
I was focusing on the more common grab 'n' bash style of potence
combat. Increased Gate is an effective run away/hitback strategy for
non-combative decks with potence. Add in Carrion Crows (Guruhi or
Nosferatu) and you're doing even better.
> Then the rest of them tend to either be fairly narrow in use
> (Earthshock, Pushing the Limit, Fists of Death, Stunt Bike, Shattering
> Blow) or kind of wallpapery (Sacrament, Burning Wrath, Death of my
> Concience).
Don't forget Well Aimed Car for the wallpaper list.
Peter D Bakija
CthuluKitty wrote:
> Being more pro-Earthshock than me is easy. If you've never heard of
> VTES you're more pro-Earthshock than me.
>
> I hate that card. hate hate hate hate hate.
Hmm. I sense ambiguity here.
> Hmm. I'm not totally sold on Undead Strength. If you're playing
> either Signpost or US then the former is generally preferable due to
> the many presses potence can generate and the possibility of gaining
> additional strikes. You can stack them to be sure, but that tends to
> get inefficient in terms of card economy.
Undead Strength is good when you don't have access to additional
strikes. Or Pounce. Back in the day, when the choice was between
Nosferatu (who had cheap POT) or Brujah (who had celerity), in terms of
card economy, you could go:
-IG/TS/US for 5 damage now.
-IG/TS/Blur for 3 damage now and 3 damage later for 1 blood.
Assuming POT/obf or POT/cel. This was a reasonable trade off, as the
Blur cost a blood, and head to head, often, the 5 damage now was better
than the 6 damage over two strikes (as the Nosferatu could potentially
torp the Brujah before getting the extra strike in). Add in CEL and the
math swings towards the Brujah, but at the cost of bigger vampires (in
the Sabbat days, POT/obf was pretty cheap, what with a 4 and two 5
caps; POT/cel came from Jimmy Dunn and 6+ caps--these days POT/cel is
easier to come by, but there are lots of other combat avenues as well).
So the TS/US for 5 model as the basis of Pot combat is very old school
theory. But it still holds for my money.
> I prefer Mighty Grapple, since I'm willing to do 1 less damage and get
> a press.
I like Mighty Grapple in non IG decks, but in IG decks, what with the
IG Press which is usually sufficient (it is rare that you need *two*
presses--usually you either need 1 as your opponent doesn't have any or
more than 2 due to, say, Celerity), and I'd rather have a greater
chance of killing them now.
> Of course my primary experience with heavy use of potence is with the
> Gargoyles, where I use Pounce intead of a potence strike. Pounce is
> nice in that it hoses additional strikes, and Ublo-Satha's supporting
> cast is lean on superior POT. I'm also more willing to press than
> others because of the massive damage prevention I tend to play, and
> play against.
Yeah, see, that'll make US look less useful.
> I wasn't even thinking about Thrown Gate and Increased Strength, since
> I was focusing on the more common grab 'n' bash style of potence
> combat. Increased Gate is an effective run away/hitback strategy for
> non-combative decks with potence. Add in Carrion Crows (Guruhi or
> Nosferatu) and you're doing even better.
True. I'm also pro weenie POT flung junk style decks, using Increased,
Gates, and Lids. They are actually pretty good.
> Don't forget Well Aimed Car for the wallpaper list.
Ahh, yes. At least it has a fantastic Firesign Theatre quote.
And someone mentioned Decapitate, which I forgot about. Yeah, I tend to
kinda lump Decapitate in the "fringe" category. Usually, sending
minions to torpor bloodless is the most you need to do, really.
Decapitate is expensive and conditional. Although fun when it works. I
keep meaning to put together a mean Blood Brothers
IG/Prevent/Disarm/Decapitate deck. But everyone would hate me...
-Peter
Bram Vink
> > My main issues with Potence are follows:
> > 1) It is basically only a combat discipline,
>
> So is Celerity... but I don't think anyone would say Celerity is crap.
> The only decent non-combat card Celerity has is Flurry of Action, but
> it's still a great combat discipline.
It combines with permanents. which makes it terribly efficient, and not
so great without those permanents. (+str, gun)
What makes Celerity, in my eyes perhaps stronger than potence, is that
it incorporates defensive as well as offensive cards. Potence lacks any
and all defense apart from the questionable defense grapple gives.
Animalism also incorporates solid defense with maneuvers, TF/Dotb, and
is also efficient cardwise, doesnt require the cards to be combo'd, nor
relies on range for them to be effective.
When playing potence combat you always need to have a backup plan for
when you encounter hitback. A lot of maneuvers combined with grapple
and tastes, dodges, expendable vampires, prevent, things like that.
Which makes potence as a sole combat discipline, comparatively weak.
> > By contrast, there are several other discipline cards that defeat S: CE
> > that also work with Weapons such as Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking,
> > Blessings of Chaos and well, The Jones.
>
> That statement shows you don't understand the power of grapple. Psyche
> does NOT defeat S:CE. It starts a new combat. There's a difference. If
> you don't understand that difference, you need to play a lot more
> combat. In case you can't figure it out, the difference is this:
> Grapple stops the Majesty BEING PLAYED AT ALL. Psyche just gives them
> another chance to play another Majesty. This difference is VERY
> important.
I think the difference is not always as big as it may seem in the long
run. If you play psyche, they have played their S:CE. Next combat, they
will not still have it in hand.
> It's possibly the best standalone combat disipline in the game. Look at
> Thaumaturgy as a standalone combat discipline. Put a weenie with tha
> against a weenie with pot and I'll tell you who I'm putting my money on
> to win. Ani is good combat at basic, protean can be good at basic in
> the right situations (i.e. against pot), abombwe is appparently good at
> basic, everything else is pretty crap at basic . A weenie with basic
> cel and no gun is a complete joke in combat.
I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
combat discipline. Any day of the week.
> > and less than optimal
> > otherwise since its transient and relies on drawing into combos.
>
> So does thaum. so does Cel. Quietus is one of the most dangerous combat
> disciplines around and relies on lengthy chains of combos. Guns combat
> relies on very specific combos (both to get out the gun AND to make
> effective use of it in combat).
> Potence is less combo reliant than many other combat modules, works
> amazingly well at basic, works even better at super, can beat nearly
> every form of combat defense in the game, and can bin any vampire on
> any amount of blood with one card at basic for no cost. If you think
> that's crap, you have some very weird ideas about this game.
Quietus is shit, and one of the least dangerous combat disciplines
around :P
I think Potence is more combo reliant than celerity/+1str, for
instance.
It's a good discipline, if backed up with another. Obf, Cel, Ani and
For are the obvious ones.
Cheers,
B
Peter D Bakija
Bram Vink wrote:
> It combines with permanents. which makes it terribly efficient, and not
> so great without those permanents. (+str, gun)
But premanents require getting those permanents. Meaning getting
blocked or having a great deal of extra cardage in the form of
Concealed or such. And permanents are expensive. Yeah, CEL/gun is good
and all, but it comes with a great deal of cost and difficulty.
> What makes Celerity, in my eyes perhaps stronger than potence, is that
> it incorporates defensive as well as offensive cards. Potence lacks any
> and all defense apart from the questionable defense grapple gives.
> Animalism also incorporates solid defense with maneuvers, TF/Dotb, and
> is also efficient cardwise, doesnt require the cards to be combo'd, nor
> relies on range for them to be effective.
Animalism is awsome. But still gets foiled by S:CE.
> When playing potence combat you always need to have a backup plan for
> when you encounter hitback.
Hit them harder and Taste. Hitback defense tends to cap out at 3 damage
per strike.
> A lot of maneuvers combined with grapple
> and tastes, dodges, expendable vampires, prevent, things like that.
> Which makes potence as a sole combat discipline, comparatively weak.
Potence, still, is the most efficient combat discipline. Not always the
best head to head with other combat disciplines (i.e. if you pit mono
Pot vs mono Pro, Pro wins. If you pit mono Pot vs mono For, For wins).
But in terms of building decks that can actually in games by virtue of
combat, Potence is still the way to go.
> I think the difference is not always as big as it may seem in the long
> run. If you play psyche, they have played their S:CE. Next combat, they
> will not still have it in hand.
And you won't have the Psyche in hand either, so when they play another
S:CE, you need another Psyche. And you also play the Psyche *after* you
have already blown whatever combat cards you played to make them play
the S:CE. Psyche is pretty good, but it is a chase of who runs out of
what first. If I wanna kill something, I'm going to play IG, 'cause I
know I'll kill it.
> I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> combat discipline. Any day of the week.
Till you get IGed. Or hit by a Sewer Lid for 9...
-Peter
Johannes Walch
>
> On Nov 28, 10:14 am, "CthuluKitty" <vtanarch...@riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>No it isn't. Remove Earthshock and Pushing the Limit, and add Thrown
>>Sewer Lid. If you really need to replace Pushing the Limit with
>>another strike effect go with Mighty Grapple. Otherwise, potence decks
>>can get along just fine with only TS, IG, Disarm, and Lid.
>
>
> While I'm more pro Earthshock than Jesse is here, it is still pretty
> narrow in use (I'd never use it as a main line effect, and would only
> use a few in a given deck).
Ok, of course it´s NOT a main line effect. But Sewer Lids aren´t either
(if you aren´t using Cailean of course). Potence needed an add-on effect
to deal with long-range combat and Earthshock is perfect. I can even
argue it :) ->
a) It´s playable on close, so it´s not a wasted cardslot (like sewer
lid) when the other guy doesn´t maneuver out.
b) It can do more than 3 damage (an very often will) in a single round,
so you can bin the other guy before he hits you for 4 more damage with
his Blur.
c) it even prevents the very likely dodge you gonna see with long range
Celerity Gun Decks, and when the other guy is acting that means he
cannot strike at all since he has to declare first.
So it´s a perfect add-on for close-range potence decks that don´t have
good access to maneuvers and didn´t have a long-range defense before.
--
johannes walch
CthuluKitty
> (if you aren´t using Cailean of course). Potence needed an add-on effect
> to deal with long-range combat and Earthshock is perfect. I can even
> argue it :) ->
Oh good lord. This argument keeps following me. I had a back and
forth about this with Peter and others about a year ago, and I don't
want to do it again. But right now I feel the Growing Fury and I have
to respond. Please don't make me follow this up with another post.
To be clear, Thrown Sewer Lid is a main line effect in a wide range of
flung junk style decks.
> a) It´s playable on close, so it´s not a wasted cardslot (like sewer
> lid) when the other guy doesn´t maneuver out.
It's playable but terrible at close. It doesn't work under Grapple,
which you should be playing, it costs a blood, and it has the effect of
Scorpion Sting, which is free and generally worse than the equivalent
handstrikes available to potence. When you play Earthshock at close
you're basically just doing it to get it out your hand. Paying a blood
to cycle a card you shouldn't have had in your deck to begin with
strikes me as an exceedingly poor use of both blood and cards. Use The
Barrens, or your discard phase. Or put good cards in your deck.
> b) It can do more than 3 damage (an very often will) in a single round,
> so you can bin the other guy before he hits you for 4 more damage with
> his Blur.
Earthshock can do more damage than Thrown Sewer Lid, but by default it
does less. It's strictly worse at inferior, and it requires the
additional play of another card to go above 3. That card has been
effectively wasted to provide 1 additional damage, which is strictly
bad card economy, and a shameful use of a card that's annoyingly
difficult to amass in large quantities.
Also, Thrown Sewer Lid can do up to 181 damage via Increased Strength.
181 is more than 3. (hyperbole is awesome)
> c) it even prevents the very likely dodge you gonna see with long range
> Celerity Gun Decks, and when the other guy is acting that means he
> cannot strike at all since he has to declare first.
Would you really characterize a dodge as very likely for CEL gun decks?
I mean, I can see it happening, but as often as not the gunner is
going to just use the inherent maneuver from the .44 to go long.
> So it´s a perfect add-on for close-range potence decks that don´t have
> good access to maneuvers and didn´t have a long-range defense before.
It's only the preferable option if you are playing mono-potence and
have no access to maneuvers. It also kind of implies that you're
specifically metagaming against weenie CEL guns (or someone else who
maneuvers and dodges), which don't necessarily come up a lot in a given
environment. Common support for potence typically offers numerous
sources of maneuvers, or means to hose them altogether. Many of these
cards are flexible in that they double as other combat effects. Rather
than running a flexible but crappy card that costs blood, I prefer to
diversify my combat to be tactically flexible. I recommend something
like:
8-10 Immortal Grapple
8-10 Close range damage increasers (Torn Signpost, Pounce, Undead
Strength, etc.)
6-8 maneuvers, especially cards that can do something else (Swallowed
by the Night, Behind You, Pursuit, Flash, Unflinching Persistence,
Crawling Chamber, etc.)
2-4 Thrown Sewer Lid
That leaves you at 24-32 combat cards. You can leave it at that for a
toolboxy combat hybrid deck, multiply the whole thing by roughly 1.5
(giving you 36-48) for a dedicated rush deck, or pepper it with
additional damage prevention, dodges, additional strikes, or
whathaveyou for the combat vs. combat trump.
Seriously, next time you think about putting Earthshock in your deck,
put it in the trash bin instead and try something like this. Report
your experiences to me, as I'd be glad to hear about them.
Did I mention that Thrown Sewer Lid provides a press at superior, which
noone ever pays attention to in these comparison?
I like presses...
Peter D Bakija
Johannes Walch wrote:
> So it´s a perfect add-on for close-range potence decks that don´t have
> good access to maneuvers and didn´t have a long-range defense before.
Yes, yes it is. This isn't main line offense, though. This is an add on
for close range potence decks that don't have good access to manuvers.
I'd use Sewer Lids as the basis for a combat deck. I'd use Gates as the
basis of a combat deck. I would not use Earthshock as the basis of a
combat deck. I'd use a few in case I needed them.
-Peter
Kushiel
> I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> combat discipline. Any day of the week.
I'm not sure I get this, as Thaumaturgy is really a second-tier combat
discipline. The discipline's strength lies in its versatility, and it
can mess with peoples' plans if they can't fight back, but when
vampires relying on THA run into vampires using actual combat
disciplines, the THA guys tend to get trashed.
Can you explain what you mean here a little better? Like, with some
examples of how THA combat is stronger than POT combat?
John Eno
XZealot
> I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> combat discipline. Any day of the week.
I will take that bet. How much would you like to offer?
Please can I have you as my prey with your stellar THA combat package
versus a POT beatstick.
Please tell me you are going to shoehorn in Shotgun Ritual because that
would really push this over the top.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
This thread as officially been hijacked.
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
If you build a deck you intend to be competetive, where you intend to
use potence as the only combat discipline, and are using 8+ caps,
you're doing something wrong, and are obviously a crap deckbuilder.
I'll take a deck with THA as the only combat discipline anytime.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
> Bram Vink wrote:
> > It combines with permanents. which makes it terribly efficient, and not
> > so great without those permanents. (+str, gun)
>
> But premanents require getting those permanents. Meaning getting
> blocked or having a great deal of extra cardage in the form of
> Concealed or such. And permanents are expensive. Yeah, CEL/gun is good
> and all, but it comes with a great deal of cost and difficulty.
Weighted walking stick is surprisingly good.
!Toreador are surprisingly good.
> > What makes Celerity, in my eyes perhaps stronger than potence, is that
> > it incorporates defensive as well as offensive cards. Potence lacks any
> > and all defense apart from the questionable defense grapple gives.
> > Animalism also incorporates solid defense with maneuvers, TF/Dotb, and
> > is also efficient cardwise, doesnt require the cards to be combo'd, nor
> > relies on range for them to be effective.
>
> Animalism is awsome. But still gets foiled by S:CE.
True.
> > When playing potence combat you always need to have a backup plan for
> > when you encounter hitback.
>
> Hit them harder and Taste. Hitback defense tends to cap out at 3 damage
> per strike.
As per below.
> > A lot of maneuvers combined with grapple
> > and tastes, dodges, expendable vampires, prevent, things like that.
> > Which makes potence as a sole combat discipline, comparatively weak.
>
> Potence, still, is the most efficient combat discipline. Not always the
> best head to head with other combat disciplines (i.e. if you pit mono
> Pot vs mono Pro, Pro wins. If you pit mono Pot vs mono For, For wins).
> But in terms of building decks that can actually in games by virtue of
> combat, Potence is still the way to go.
I think Ani is the way to go there, usually. It's definately more
efficient, anyway.
Hardly any games are won by virtue of combat. Pot combat requires 2
disciplines, which makes most potence decks lacking in either efficient
oust, or efficient defensive capabilities.
Exceptions would be using OOC disciplines, and/or princes.
> > I think the difference is not always as big as it may seem in the long
> > run. If you play psyche, they have played their S:CE. Next combat, they
> > will not still have it in hand.
>
> And you won't have the Psyche in hand either, so when they play another
> S:CE, you need another Psyche. And you also play the Psyche *after* you
> have already blown whatever combat cards you played to make them play
> the S:CE. Psyche is pretty good, but it is a chase of who runs out of
> what first. If I wanna kill something, I'm going to play IG, 'cause I
> know I'll kill it.
It is definately more surefire.
> > I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> > combat discipline. Any day of the week.
>
> Till you get IGed. Or hit by a Sewer Lid for 9...
If you have POT as a sole combat discipline in a competetive deck,
you're doing something wrong. the THA will come out on top, even if it
only uses movement of the mind and theft of vitae.
Cheers,
B
Peter D Bakija
On Nov 29, 3:33 am, "Bram Vink" <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> If you have POT as a sole combat discipline in a competetive deck,
> you're doing something wrong. the THA will come out on top, even if it
> only uses movement of the mind and theft of vitae.
Umm, wha? There have been countless successful POT only decks that have
been used competetively. Weenie POT is, and has been, a viable
archetype for a long time now. I think something is being lost in
discussion here.
-Peter
Jeroen
Bram Vink schreef:
> If you build a deck you intend to be competetive, where you intend to
> use potence as the only combat discipline, and are using 8+ caps,
> you're doing something wrong, and are obviously a crap deckbuilder.
> I'll take a deck with THA as the only combat discipline anytime.
>
while true, you never mentioned the 8+ cap in your previous post, so
the confusion is understandable.
XZealot
Bram Vink wrote:
> XZealot schreef:
>
> > > I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> > > combat discipline. Any day of the week.
> >
> > I will take that bet. How much would you like to offer?
> >
> > Please can I have you as my prey with your stellar THA combat package
> > versus a POT beatstick.
> >
> > Please tell me you are going to shoehorn in Shotgun Ritual because that
> > would really push this over the top.
> If you build a deck you intend to be competetive, where you intend to
> use potence as the only combat discipline, and are using 8+ caps,
> you're doing something wrong, and are obviously a crap deckbuilder.
> I'll take a deck with THA as the only combat discipline anytime.
Obviously, when you say "the only combat discipline", you actually mean
the only discipline that is allowed on combat cards is POT and THA
respectively.
Right, so how much money are you willing to bet? You know because I am
an "obvious a crap deckbuilder" and using only vampires above 8+ with
only potence and you are going to only use vampires above 8+ with only
THA as the only combat discipline.
What's the bet again $100, $200, $5000 dollars or euros, your pick?
Nosferatu_3
I'll be brave and wade in here. I find that THA and POT are both rather
card intensive. Granted, you can maneuver with an apportation or
movement of the mind (needs reprinted) and theft, but that's still two
cards and not terribly strong on offense or defense. With potence, you
are looking at 3+ cards most of the time. As for big cap with THA, vs
big cap with POT, I would put my money on the methuselah with the
dreams of the sphinx or the barrens out. It's all about having the
cards in your hand.
Blooded Sand
On Nov 29, 10:09 pm, "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> Bram Vink wrote:
> > XZealot schreef:
> Right, so how much money are you willing to bet? You know because I am
> an "obvious a crap deckbuilder" and using only vampires above 8+ with
> only potence and you are going to only use vampires above 8+ with only
> THA as the only combat discipline.
Hektor, Hektor, Hektor. Or even Thetmes. Cos big agg HURTS!!!!!!
Bram Vink
Nosferatu_3 schreef:
<snippety>
> I'll be brave and wade in here. I find that THA and POT are both rather
> card intensive. Granted, you can maneuver with an apportation or
> movement of the mind (needs reprinted) and theft, but that's still two
> cards and not terribly strong on offense or defense. With potence, you
> are looking at 3+ cards most of the time. As for big cap with THA, vs
> big cap with POT, I would put my money on the methuselah with the
> dreams of the sphinx or the barrens out. It's all about having the
> cards in your hand.
Actually, theft of vitae is one of the strongest strikes around.
Potence comes close with Stunt Cycle, granted the opposing vampire
doesn't have celerity.
Mostly, the argument relies on: THA is decent solitary, POT needs a
backup discipline, or weenies.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
Jeroen schreef:
Perhaps it is, though I did mention specifically 'bigcap' :)
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
> Bram Vink wrote:
> > XZealot schreef:
> >
> > > > I'd put my money on a bigcap with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole
> > > > combat discipline. Any day of the week.
> > >
> > > I will take that bet. How much would you like to offer?
> > >
> > > Please can I have you as my prey with your stellar THA combat package
> > > versus a POT beatstick.
> > >
> > > Please tell me you are going to shoehorn in Shotgun Ritual because that
> > > would really push this over the top.
>
> > If you build a deck you intend to be competetive, where you intend to
> > use potence as the only combat discipline, and are using 8+ caps,
> > you're doing something wrong, and are obviously a crap deckbuilder.
> > I'll take a deck with THA as the only combat discipline anytime.
>
> Obviously, when you say "the only combat discipline", you actually mean
> the only discipline that is allowed on combat cards is POT and THA
> respectively.
Sure. Why anyone would build a deck with strictly potence as combat, I
can only guess.
There's one vampire that can get away with it, and that's Cailean.
> Right, so how much money are you willing to bet? You know because I am
> an "obvious a crap deckbuilder" and using only vampires above 8+ with
> only potence and you are going to only use vampires above 8+ with only
> THA as the only combat discipline.
>
> What's the bet again $100, $200, $5000 dollars or euros, your pick?
>
> Comments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp
When you build a competetive deck, let me know. I'd just feel bad about
taking your money.
In the meantime, think about how to beat 2x movement of the mind, 1x
burst of sunlight, 1x rotschreck without Cailean, and Potence only.
Cheers,
B
XZealot
This isn't about competitve decks.....
<reprinted for your edification>
"Obviously, when you say "the only combat discipline", you actually
mean
the only discipline that is allowed on combat cards is POT and THA
respectively.
Right, so how much money are you willing to bet? You know because I am
an "obvious a crap deckbuilder" and using only vampires above 8+ with
only potence and you are going to only use vampires above 8+ with only
THA as the only combat discipline.
What's the bet again $100, $200, $5000 dollars or euros, your pick? "
...this is about you.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Choose your bet.
I will find an Bank to hold the money in escrow.
We can duke is out on one of the VTES servers JOL, deckbot,or iVTES.
ira...@gmail.com
> Choose your bet.
> I will find an Bank to hold the money in escrow.
> We can duke is out on one of the VTES servers JOL, deckbot,or iVTES.
One result won't prove an argument, and VTES is multiplayer, anyway.
Norm, would you consider making it just for fun, and have a bunch of
people build decks? I would propose:
- The only discipline based combat cards are POT or THA.
- Some restriction about big caps in the deck (at least 50% of the
crypt must be 8 cap or bigger?)
Then, we play 4 player games on JOL, 2 THA players, 2 POT players (with
same disciplines as cross-table allies.)
I bet we can get at least 4 players, possibly more. Who is in?
I predict that the THA decks would win.
Ira
XZealot
ira...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Put your money where your mouth is.
> > Choose your bet.
> > I will find an Bank to hold the money in escrow.
> > We can duke is out on one of the VTES servers JOL, deckbot,or iVTES.
>
> One result won't prove an argument, and VTES is multiplayer, anyway.
But it would make me some money....
> Norm, would you consider making it just for fun, and have a bunch of
> people build decks? I would propose:
>
> - The only discipline based combat cards are POT or THA.
> - Some restriction about big caps in the deck (at least 50% of the
> crypt must be 8 cap or bigger?)
I would say the whole crypt must be 8+ or bigger, but I am flexible.
> Then, we play 4 player games on JOL, 2 THA players, 2 POT players (with
> same disciplines as cross-table allies.)
>
> I bet we can get at least 4 players, possibly more. Who is in?
>
> I predict that the THA decks would win.
Okay, I'll take the POT decks, I'm going to need a partner.
Blooded Sand
On Dec 2, 5:32 am, "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> ira...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Put your money where your mouth is.
> > > Choose your bet.
> > > I will find an Bank to hold the money in escrow.
> > > We can duke is out on one of the VTES servers JOL, deckbot,or iVTES.
>
> > One result won't prove an argument, and VTES is multiplayer, anyway.But it would make me some money....
>
> > Norm, would you consider making it just for fun, and have a bunch of
> > people build decks? I would propose:
>
> > - The only discipline based combat cards are POT or THA.
> > - Some restriction about big caps in the deck (at least 50% of the
> > crypt must be 8 cap or bigger?)I would say the whole crypt must be 8+ or bigger, but I am flexible.
>
> > Then, we play 4 player games on JOL, 2 THA players, 2 POT players (with
> > same disciplines as cross-table allies.)
>
> > I bet we can get at least 4 players, possibly more. Who is in?
>
> > I predict that the THA decks would win.Okay, I'll take the POT decks, I'm going to need a partner.
>
> Comments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp
I'm there. Norm, u wanna take 1-2, 2-3, or 3-4. Personally leaning
towards 3-4, but hey, Hektor isn't everything......
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
<reprinted for clarification>
If you build a deck you intend to be competetive, where you intend to
use potence as the only combat discipline, and are using 8+ caps,
you're doing something wrong, and are obviously a crap deckbuilder.
I'll take a deck with THA as the only combat discipline anytime.
> <reprinted for your edification>
> "Obviously, when you say "the only combat discipline", you actually
> mean
> the only discipline that is allowed on combat cards is POT and THA
> respectively.
>
> Right, so how much money are you willing to bet? You know because I am
> an "obvious a crap deckbuilder" and using only vampires above 8+ with
> only potence and you are going to only use vampires above 8+ with only
> THA as the only combat discipline.
>
> What's the bet again $100, $200, $5000 dollars or euros, your pick? "
>
> ...this is about you.
>
> Put your money where your mouth is.
>
> Choose your bet.
>
> I will find an Bank to hold the money in escrow.
>
> We can duke is out on one of the VTES servers JOL, deckbot,or iVTES.
>
> Comments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp
If you're serious,
I'll take your 100 euro bet, though I might have some trouble
transferring to the US. However I'm good for it: 1v1, only combat cards
potence or thaumaturgy, only 9caps and higher.
Whoever goes first gets 2 transfers, then 3, 4, etc.
Legal decks.
Stage: Webvtes (play.vekn.org)
You can reach me at (first letter of my name)vi...@phil.uu.nl
Since I also have other things to do, I cannot guarantee response time.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
Bram Vink schreef:
Edit: I'll be on #vtes on sorcery.net while im online, and the email is
(flomn)vink(at)phil.uu.nl
Bram Vink
XZealot
Sounds good.
All you have to do is mail me a check or cheque (in fact you can deduct
the postage if you feel so), I can do the same for you.
Webvtes it is.
I tend to play late at night on Saturdays or Sundays is good for me.
How about you?
my email is attached, but if you can't get it it is
xzealot(at)cox(dot)net(nothing else)
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
I'm on GMT, so late at night over at your spot probably isnt a good
time for me.
Tomorrow I'm rather busy, family stuff.
As I post this, I can play. Hit IRC (iuturna.sorcery.net - a
webclient.) if you want to.
Salem
> XZealot schreef:
You guys do know you have to post a complete transcript of the game when
this is done and dusted, right? :)
--
salem
http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Kevin Walsh
> Assuming POT/obf or POT/cel. This was a reasonable trade off, as the
> Blur cost a blood, and head to head, often, the 5 damage now was better
> than the 6 damage over two strikes (as the Nosferatu could potentially
> torp the Brujah before getting the extra strike in). Add in CEL and the
> math swings towards the Brujah, but at the cost of bigger vampires (in
> the Sabbat days, POT/obf was pretty cheap, what with a 4 and two 5
> caps; POT/cel came from Jimmy Dunn and 6+ caps--
Although you could get it cheaper by using pot/CEL instead, which is
basically just as good at inflicting damage (slightly better against
Fortitude), and lets you use Sideslip effectively.
As for guns, they're not quite as expensive as you make out, since
mono-CEL is so cheap in group 2/3, and you can bundle aus pre with it
if you go for 5 caps.
Kevin
Bram Vink
Bram Vink schreef:
Just for clarity's sake:
The only disciplined combat cards allowed are potence for you,
thaumaturgy for me. (My wording in this post was unclear.)
The only crypt choices allowed are vampires with a capacity of 9 and
up.
First player gets 2 transfers.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
> Just for clarity's sake:
>
> The only disciplined combat cards allowed are potence for you,
> thaumaturgy for me. (My wording in this post was unclear.)
> The only crypt choices allowed are vampires with a capacity of 9 and
> up.
>
> First player gets 2 transfers.
>
> Cheers,
>
> B
Combat cards includes combo cards that can be used in combat.
XZealot
Bram Vink wrote:
> <snip>
> > Just for clarity's sake:
> >
> > The only disciplined combat cards allowed are potence for you,
> > thaumaturgy for me. (My wording in this post was unclear.)
> > The only crypt choices allowed are vampires with a capacity of 9 and
> > up.
> >
> > First player gets 2 transfers.
Why do you feel that this deviation from the 2 normal methods of
beginning a game is necessary (1,2,3,4 or 4,4)?
>
> Combat cards includes combo cards that can be used in combat.
So just so that we know, no Typhonic Beast, but are you saying that no
viceratka cards, bloodlines disciplines, or anarch cards can be played
at anyhing other than potence or thaumaturgy respectively.
Commments Welcome,
XZealot
> Stage: Webvtes (play.vekn.org)
Something is wrong with this website.
Hmm....
I will duke it out with you when it gets back up, unless you would like
to chose another venue.
Bram Vink
> Bram Vink wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > Just for clarity's sake:
> > >
> > > The only disciplined combat cards allowed are potence for you,
> > > thaumaturgy for me. (My wording in this post was unclear.)
> > > The only crypt choices allowed are vampires with a capacity of 9 and
> > > up.
> > >
> > > First player gets 2 transfers.
>
> Why do you feel that this deviation from the 2 normal methods of
> beginning a game is necessary (1,2,3,4 or 4,4)?
1, 2, 3, 4 gives a difference of 2.
4, 4 isn't normal to me.
> > Combat cards includes combo cards that can be used in combat.
>
> So just so that we know, no Typhonic Beast, but are you saying that no
> viceratka cards, bloodlines disciplines, or anarch cards can be played
> at anyhing other than potence or thaumaturgy respectively.
I'm saying you cannot play swallowed by the night.
And, sure.
> Commments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp
Please get in IRC when you're able to.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
Whichever works. Wes offered JOL. I have no experience with it, but im
sure it'll be fine either way.
XZealot
I have no experience with either so I am hobbled either way.
Can anyone point me to a instruction page for either?
Pat
news:1165357169....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bram Vink wrote:
>> XZealot schreef:
>>
>> > > Stage: Webvtes (play.vekn.org)
>> >
>> > Something is wrong with this website.
>> >
>> > Hmm....
>> >
>> > I will duke it out with you when it gets back up, unless you would like
>> > to chose another venue.
>> >
>> > Comments Welcome,
>> > Norman S. Brown, Jr
>> > XZealot
>> > Archon of the Swamp
>>
>> Whichever works. Wes offered JOL. I have no experience with it, but im
>> sure it'll be fine either way.
>
> I have no experience with either so I am hobbled either way.
>
> Can anyone point me to a instruction page for either?
>
The one I know how to use is here:
JOL3 is VERY easy, and probably the better choice if your schedules don't
allow you to play in real time.
BTW, I don't know where you guys landed with this duel, but if you want some
generic decks at the table to beat up on, and if you wind up in JOL, I'm
game to help. :)
- Pat
XZealot
it's a one on one display of combat prowess Bram Vink, representing the
pointy capped wizardry of Thaumatugy versus Norm Brown, representing
the low-brow knuckle-dragging of Potence.
Pat
But what happens when somebody brings a Cel/Gun deck and you both die
screaming? ;)
Respect my Celeritye!
- Pat
XZealot
> > it's a one on one display of combat prowess Bram Vink, representing the
> > pointy capped wizardry of Thaumatugy versus Norm Brown, representing
> > the low-brow knuckle-dragging of Potence.
> >
>
> But what happens when somebody brings a Cel/Gun deck and you both die
> screaming? ;)
>
> Respect my Celeritye!
I wipe my ass with Celerity. Behold my racing stripes!
Frederick Scott
> I wipe my ass with Celerity. Behold my racing stripes!
oh, gross!
Alias
XZealot napsal:
sorry to interrupt, but before you rob poor Bram Vink of his money -
stupid, simple and cycleable Increased Strength+Earthshock will always
own thaumaturgy - whatever he does - strikes for one agg or steals two
blood - hit him for massive ranged, undodgeable damage, bye bye.
of course, it depends a little bit if you allow non-combat card effects
in combat, like Precognition or Rotschreck, or for example Hidden
Lurker on the Potence side.
XZealot
> sorry to interrupt, but before you rob poor Bram Vink of his money -
> stupid, simple and cycleable Increased Strength+Earthshock will always
> own thaumaturgy - whatever he does - strikes for one agg or steals two
> blood - hit him for massive ranged, undodgeable damage, bye bye.
>
> of course, it depends a little bit if you allow non-combat card effects
> in combat, like Precognition or Rotschreck, or for example Hidden
> Lurker on the Potence side.
Just so everyone will know what happened.
Bram Vink showed up with a Cybele Parthenon Brainwash deck. He
brainwashed all my minions and bled me out without a single combat
occuring.
Ankur Gupta
>> stupid, simple and cycleable Increased Strength+Earthshock will always
>> own thaumaturgy - whatever he does - strikes for one agg or steals two
>> blood - hit him for massive ranged, undodgeable damage, bye bye.
>>
>> of course, it depends a little bit if you allow non-combat card effects
>> in combat, like Precognition or Rotschreck, or for example Hidden
>> Lurker on the Potence side.
>
> brainwashed all my minions and bled me out without a single combat
> occuring.
Hm. I guess that's pretty solid proof that THA owns POT in combat. I'm
sold. I'll never play potence again.
I thought you two were going to see how things worked out with the
following format:
"Ok, my 9 cap POT dude rushes your dude over there." <record results>
"Ok, now my 9 cap THA dude rushes your dude over there." <record results>
Repeat until boredom ensues.
By the way, was Enkidu allowed? Was there any discussion about combat
specials being allowed or disallowed?
Ankur
Play. The. Game.
Bram Vink
XZealot schreef:
Full transcript with conversation:
00:43 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
00:49 12/6 [Bvink] hey, btw.
00:54 12/6 [XZealot] there we go...Hello to you to as well
00:54 12/6 [XZealot] if you go directly from the hyperlink it treats
you like an observer
00:55 12/6 [Ghost] Ah, there you go
00:56 12/6 [Bvink] I'm here with cards in hand.
00:56 12/6 [Bvink] perhaps since I was logged in still.
00:57 12/6 [XZealot] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
00:57 12/6 XZealot's pool was 30, now is 28.
00:57 12/6 Added 2 blood to inactive region #2, now 2.
00:58 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
00:58 12/6 Move Disarm to XZealot's ashheap
00:58 12/6 XZealot draws from library
--
00:58 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:00 12/6 [Bvink] is play x ready enough to put a card in my ready
region?
01:01 12/6 [XZealot] don't know
01:01 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MASTER PHASE.
01:01 12/6 [XZealot] it isn't listed in the play commands
01:01 12/6 [XZealot] try it out
01:02 12/6 Move The Parthenon to Bvink's ready region
01:02 12/6 Bvink's pool was 30, now is 28.
01:02 12/6 [Ghost] no
01:03 12/6 [Ghost] try this instead --> move hand x re
01:03 12/6 [Bvink] ns?
01:03 12/6 Move Sudden Reversal to XZealot's ashheap
01:03 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:03 12/6 [Ghost] followed by --> draw
01:03 12/6 [Bvink] I used: play x bvink ready
01:04 12/6 [Ghost] did it automatically draw for you?
01:04 12/6 [XZealot] ah okay, I understand
01:04 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:04 12/6 [XZealot] I played a Sudden Reversal
01:04 12/6 Tap The Parthenon
01:05 12/6 [XZealot] See where it says MOve Sudden Reversal to
XZEalot's Ashheap
01:05 12/6 [XZealot] I sudden reversal'd the Parthanon
01:06 12/6 Move The Parthenon to Bvink's ready region
01:06 12/6 Move The Parthenon to Bvink's ashheap
01:06 12/6 Bvink's pool was 28, now is 30.
01:07 12/6 Bvink's pool was 30, now is 28.
01:07 12/6 Added 2 blood to inactive region #2, now 2.
01:08 12/6 [XZealot] did you get that message? You get 3 transfers
01:08 12/6 [Bvink] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
01:08 12/6 Bvink's pool was 28, now is 27.
01:08 12/6 Added 1 blood to inactive region #1, now 1.
01:08 12/6 Move Jake Washington (Hunter) to Bvink's ashheap
01:08 12/6 Bvink draws from library
--
01:09 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:09 12/6 [XZealot] START OF MASTER PHASE.
01:09 12/6 [XZealot] No Master (Sudden Reversal)
01:10 12/6 [XZealot] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
01:10 12/6 XZealot's pool was 28, now is 24.
01:10 12/6 Added 4 blood to inactive region #2, now 6.
01:11 12/6 Move Disarm to XZealot's ashheap
01:11 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:11 12/6 [XZealot] hmm, won't let me end my turn
01:12 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
01:12 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:12 12/6 [XZealot] you have to select Discard Phase and End Turn,
nice failsafe!
01:13 12/6 [Ghost] what do you think of JOL so far, guys?
01:14 12/6 [Bvink] a lot clunkier than webvtes. :P but thanks.
01:14 12/6 Move The Parthenon to Bvink's ready region
01:14 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MASTER PHASE.
01:14 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:15 12/6 [XZealot] two Parthenons!
01:15 12/6 [Bvink] suddening?
01:15 12/6 [XZealot] not as fancy as VTES Online but better than
deckbot
01:15 12/6 Bvink's pool was 27, now is 25.
01:15 12/6 [XZealot] but good response speed overall
01:15 12/6 [XZealot] no sudden
01:16 12/6 [Bvink] no sudden?
01:16 12/6 [XZealot] no sudden
01:16 12/6 [Bvink] im sorry norm.
01:17 12/6 Tap The Parthenon
01:17 12/6 [XZealot] I like the hyperlinks that allow you to look at
the card text in a separate window
01:17 12/6 [XZealot] why are you sorry?
01:17 12/6 [XZealot] Is this where you sling down 18 Anarch Revolts?
01:19 12/6 Put Brainwash on inactive region #2
01:19 12/6 [Ghost] Yes, 18 ARs would surely show the superior of THA
combat!
01:19 12/6 [Bvink] nope, worse.
01:19 12/6 [XZealot] nasty
01:20 12/6 [XZealot] didn't see that one coming
01:20 12/6 [Bvink] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
01:20 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:21 12/6 [XZealot] as opposed to brainwash
01:21 12/6 Bvink's pool was 25, now is 21.
01:21 12/6 Added 4 blood to inactive region #2, now 6.
01:21 12/6 Move The Parthenon to Bvink's ashheap
01:21 12/6 Bvink draws from library
--
01:21 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:22 12/6 [XZealot] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
01:22 12/6 XZealot's pool was 24, now is 20.
01:22 12/6 Added 4 blood to inactive region #4, now 4.
01:23 12/6 Move Immortal Grapple to XZealot's ashheap
01:23 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:23 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
01:23 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:24 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MASTER PHASE.
01:24 12/6 Put Brainwash on inactive region #4
01:25 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:25 12/6 Tap The Parthenon
01:25 12/6 Move Jake Washington (Hunter) to Bvink's ready region
01:25 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:26 12/6 [Bvink] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
01:26 12/6 Bvink's pool was 21, now is 17.
01:26 12/6 Added 4 blood to inactive region #2, now 10.
01:27 12/6 Move Jake Washington (Hunter) to Bvink's inactive region
01:28 12/6 Move Jake Washington (Hunter) to Bvink's ready region
01:28 12/6 Move Cybele to Bvink's ready region
--
01:28 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:29 12/6 [Bvink] if you want to, ill let you back out of this
nonsense.
01:30 12/6 [Bvink] shake hands and call it a day. ;)
01:33 12/6 [XZealot] this is a joke
01:33 12/6 [XZealot] play your game
01:33 12/6 [XZealot] lay it out
01:33 12/6 [XZealot] let's see what you brought
01:34 12/6 [Bvink] ehm ok
01:35 12/6 [Bvink] that means you're going to owe me 100 euro's though.
im holding 4 brainwashes, 2 pentexes, and a sudden. you sure?
01:35 12/6 Put Haven Uncovered on Cybele
01:35 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:35 12/6 [XZealot] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
01:35 12/6 [XZealot] great let's see em
01:35 12/6 [Bvink] no sudden.
01:36 12/6 [Bvink] ok :/
01:37 12/6 XZealot's pool was 20, now is 19.
01:37 12/6 XZealot draws from crypt
01:37 12/6 Move Taste of Vitae to XZealot's ashheap
01:37 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:37 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
01:37 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:37 12/6 Bvink untaps.
01:39 12/6 Tap Cybele
01:39 12/6 [Bvink] bleed, 3.
01:40 12/6 XZealot's pool was 19, now is 16.
01:40 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MINION PHASE.
01:40 12/6 Removed 1 blood from Cybele, now 9.
01:40 12/6 [XZealot] Is this how you show the superiority
01:40 12/6 [XZealot] of THA combat
01:40 12/6 [Bvink] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
01:40 12/6 Move Pentex Subversion to Bvink's ashheap
01:40 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:40 12/6 [XZealot] please demonstrate
01:40 12/6 [XZealot] you can't prove it without a combat
01:40 12/6 [Bvink] no, this is how I take 100 euro's off you.
--
01:40 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:41 12/6 [Bvink] it has nothing to do with tha combat or not. you got
money involved.
01:41 12/6 XZealot's pool was 16, now is 12.
01:41 12/6 Added 4 blood to inactive region #5, now 4.
01:41 12/6 [Ghost] Hold for a sec
01:41 12/6 Move Bum's Rush to XZealot's ashheap
01:41 12/6 XZealot draws from library
01:41 12/6 [Ghost] Sorry, just watching... hope you don't mind.
01:41 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
01:41 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:42 12/6 [Ghost] Bram, move Cybele back to ianctive and then "play
vamp x"
01:42 12/6 [Ghost] looks like you moved her instead
01:42 12/6 Move Cybele to Bvink's ready region
01:42 12/6 Move Cybele to Bvink's inactive region
01:42 12/6 Move Cybele to Bvink's ready region
01:42 12/6 Capacity of Cybele now 10
01:43 12/6 Bvink untaps.
01:43 12/6 Bvink's pool was 17, now is 16.
01:44 12/6 Put Brainwash on inactive region #5
01:44 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MINION PHASE.
01:44 12/6 Tap Cybele
01:44 12/6 [Bvink] bleed 3
01:44 12/6 Bvink draws from library
01:45 12/6 Removed 1 blood from Cybele, now 8.
01:46 12/6 XZealot's pool was 12, now is 9.
01:47 12/6 [Bvink] START OF DISCARD PHASE
--
01:47 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
01:47 12/6 [Bvink] seriously, you dont want to call it and say it's a
meaningless challenge?
01:47 12/6 [Bvink] I'm perfectly ok with that
01:48 12/6 [XZealot] you can't prove that Thaumaturgy is better than
Potence without a combat
01:48 12/6 [XZealot] you can bleed me out
01:49 12/6 [XZealot] but that doesn't win you the bet
01:49 12/6 [Bvink] the bet is who won the game.
01:49 12/6 [XZealot] you haven't shown any combat
01:49 12/6 [XZealot] okay, if you think that was the point of this
01:50 12/6 [Bvink] no, it wasn't the point, but it was about money. I'm
willing to let you back out, though.
01:51 12/6 [Bvink] it was going to be lame either way.
01:51 12/6 [XZealot] I'm not backing out
01:51 12/6 [XZealot] there hasn't been a single combat to prove
Thaumaturgy is better than Potence
01:52 12/6 [Bvink] either vampire combat specials, or rotschreck. it's
no proof of anything, apart from that one person exploited somethin
01:52 12/6 [Bvink] better than the other
01:52 12/6 [XZealot] it's only lame because you can't win an arguement
by dodging the point
01:52 12/6 [XZealot] which is exactly what you have done
01:53 12/6 [Bvink] no. if we'd strictly play combat
01:53 12/6 [Bvink] even then it would come down to who abuses
something.
01:54 12/6 [Bvink] I'm playing a bigcap deck with only THA cards for
combat, im winning, that's proven.
01:55 12/6 [Bvink] it was about the whole deck, not just the combat. as
was stated.
01:55 12/6 [XZealot] if you say so
01:56 12/6 [Bvink] so, do you feel like calling it quits because this
challenge proves nothing?
01:56 12/6 [XZealot] This whole thing started when you said that
Thaumatugy is a better combat disciplinen than Potence
01:56 12/6 [Bvink] I'm up for that.
01:57 12/6 [Bvink] I said mono pot is a retarded thing to play, unless
you play weenies.
01:57 12/6 [Bvink] mono tha is not.
01:57 12/6 [Bvink] ergo I'd put my money on the guy playing mono tha.
01:57 12/6 [XZealot] you haven't proved that Thaumaturgy is better than
Potence
01:57 12/6 [XZealot] you have bleed me out, which is a stalemate
01:58 12/6 [XZealot] neither side wins
01:58 12/6 [Bvink] ehm, no. read the thread.
01:58 12/6 [Bvink] the point was: the deck with THA will win.
01:58 12/6 [XZealot] no combats have occured
01:59 12/6 [Bvink] it's not winning by combat.
01:59 12/6 [Bvink] combat do not win anything.
01:59 12/6 [XZealot] How does playing a bunch of brainwashes prove
Thaumaturgy combat is better
01:59 12/6 [Bvink] re-read post #24 in the thread
02:00 12/6 [Bvink] it doesn't.
02:00 12/6 [Bvink] how does playing cailean/grapple prove that potence
combat is better.
02:00 12/6 [Bvink] it doesnt.
02:01 12/6 [Bvink] this was me saying if you build a deck with mono
pot, im going to put my money on the THA deck. you play the mono pot.
02:01 12/6 [Bvink] I play the THA deck. I win. I put my money on me.
02:01 12/6 [XZealot] read message number 16
02:02 12/6 [XZealot] this wasn't about a deck it was about a big cap
02:02 12/6 [Bvink] I'm being nice, and wont require you to pay up,
since the win proves nothing.
02:02 12/6 [XZealot] I don't owe you anything
02:03 12/6 [XZealot] we haven't put two big caps against each other
02:03 12/6 [Bvink] "Please can I have you as my prey with your stellar
THA combat package "
02:03 12/6 [Bvink] you do.
02:03 12/6 [Bvink] I specifically mention deck in the followup post.
02:03 12/6 [Bvink] you then offer a bet.
02:04 12/6 [Bvink] I didnt put money on a bigcap. I put money on the
deck.
02:05 12/6 [Bvink] the deck wins. bet won. point remains unproven.
02:05 12/6 [XZealot] Quote Bram Vink, "I'd put my money on a bigcap
with THA over a bigcap with POT as sole combat discipline."
02:06 12/6 [Bvink] you offer a bet. I dont take it.
02:06 12/6 [Bvink] I say: if you build a deck with mono pot, you're a
crap deckbuilder
02:07 12/6 [Bvink] you say: since im "obviously that" lets build decks
to these constraints
02:07 12/6 [Bvink] and offer a bet on that.
02:07 12/6 [XZealot] Obviously you didn't come he to take a bet
02:08 12/6 [Bvink] I say: I'd feel bad about taking your money.
02:08 12/6 [Bvink] you say: dont be a pussy and take that bet.
02:08 12/6 [Bvink] sure. whatever.
02:08 12/6 [XZealot] we can talk ourselves to death or you can bleed me
out
02:09 12/6 [Bvink] and now im back at I'd feel bad about taking your
money.
02:09 12/6 [XZealot] which doesn't prove your point
02:09 12/6 [XZealot] nor does it win you the bet
02:09 12/6 [Bvink] yawn. it does, but if you're unwilling to recognize
that, that's that, then.
02:09 12/6 [Bvink] ill go back to work and leave this meaningless bet.
02:10 12/6 [Bvink] Everyone looks at 7 cards of Bvink's hand.
02:10 12/6 [XZealot] wow, you're completely obtuse
02:10 12/6 [Bvink] convinced I'd win, and dont feel like saddling me up
with losing the bet for going back to work?
02:11 12/6 [Bvink] ehm, a bet's a bet. I didnt want to take it, you
pressed the point.
02:12 12/6 [Bvink] now im letting it slide, when I've already won.
how's that obtuse?
02:12 12/6 [XZealot] I don't want to lose your job obviously
02:12 12/6 [XZealot] I can't wait for Wes to post this transcript
02:13 12/6 [Bvink] I wont lose my job. ok we can play this out if you
feel like it.
02:13 12/6 [Bvink] your turn.
02:14 12/6 [XZealot] START OF INFLUENCE PHASE.
02:14 12/6 XZealot's pool was 9, now is 8.
02:14 12/6 XZealot draws from crypt
02:14 12/6 Move Bum's Rush to XZealot's ashheap
02:14 12/6 XZealot draws from library
02:15 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE
--
02:15 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
02:15 12/6 Bvink untaps.
02:15 12/6 Bvink's pool was 16, now is 15.
02:15 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MINION PHASE.
02:15 12/6 Tap Cybele
02:16 12/6 [Bvink] bleed 3.
02:16 12/6 Removed 1 blood from Cybele, now 7.
02:16 12/6 XZealot's pool was 8, now is 5.
02:16 12/6 [Bvink] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
02:16 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
02:17 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
02:17 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
02:18 12/6 Bvink untaps.
02:18 12/6 Bvink's pool was 15, now is 14.
02:18 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MINION PHASE.
02:18 12/6 Tap Cybele
02:19 12/6 Removed 1 blood from Cybele, now 6.
02:19 12/6 [Bvink] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
02:19 12/6 [XZealot] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
02:19 12/6 [Bvink] bleed 3, btw.
02:19 12/6 XZealot's pool was 5, now is 2.
02:19 12/6 [XZealot] START OF DISCARD PHASE.
--
02:19 12/6 [Bvink] START OF UNTAP PHASE.
02:20 12/6 Bvink untaps.
02:20 12/6 [Bvink] START OF MINION PHASE.
02:20 12/6 Tap Cybele
02:20 12/6 [Bvink] bleed 3
02:21 12/6 Removed 1 blood from Cybele, now 5.
02:21 12/6 [Bvink] wes, still here?
02:21 12/6 XZealot's pool was 2, now is -1.
02:23 12/6 [XZealot] Wes , go ahead an post how Bvink proved that
Thaumaturgy combat was better than Potence combat
02:23 12/6 [Bvink] so.
02:24 12/6 [Bvink] I proved nothing of the kind. I proved you didnt
play a competetive deck under the restrictions.
02:24 12/6 [Bvink] is it something I'm proud of? no. Do I expect to see
your money? no.
02:25 12/6 [Bvink] I didnt want to take this bet, I've given you plenty
of opportunity to get out from under it. That's all.
02:25 12/6 [Bvink] I hope the rest of your day is nice, though ;)
02:25 12/6 [Bvink] take care guys. wes, norm.
--
Cheers,
B
Pat
Cue collective sigh of disappointment from the assembled masses.
I think we were all hoping for something a shade more apocalyptic.
- Pat
Alias
Pat napsal:
actually, it is pretty amusing. smartass vs. crybaby - the JOL
transcript could be even used as a script for an absurd drama -
Vladimir and Estragon playing VTES :)))
Bram Vink
I fully agree with you on this point: If you know you're fighting
thaumaturgy combat, and you play potence, can choose your vampire, and
so on, you're going to win said combat. (and thus, a 2 player game)
That was not the point. The point of the discussion was the following:
A *competetive deck* (in, say, a tournament setting), which uses mono
POT, and not weenies, is per definition badly built. POT needs a backup
discipline to be viable in variable situations (close range, long
range, S:CE, etc. combat).
A mono THA deck, which uses bigger vampires, is not per definition
badly built, and needs a single set of cards to deal reasonably
effectively with a multitude of situations, not only that, but THA
comes with effective backup disciplines, and is very cardefficient,
leaving room for your deck to be competetive in other fields.
This bet wouldn't prove anything of the sort, either way. I accepted
your bet fully knowing it was a stupid bet, just for the sake of it,
and that was my fault, and I apologize for not instead telling you said
bet wouldn't prove or disprove the point I was making.
I'd feel bad about it, if I actually would expect you to cough it up.
And I'm sorry to those who thought apocalyptical combat would ensue.
When knowing what combat you'll get, Potence does beat Thaumaturgy,
yes. I know I'd lose against Cailean. Everyone can see that simply.
Cailean mono-POT is not a competetive deck in any way, though, whereas
THA combat can be so (theft/burst/shreck).
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
Smartass I can see. Crybaby not. ;) Norm had a valid point in that pure
POT combat is more effective when you know what you're facing, and can
set range.
That I subverted the spirit of the bet, would leave me annoyed in the
opposite situation. ;)
Cheers,
B
Alias
Bram Vink napsal:
to be honest, I never thought about Cailean (too obvious and fragile),
in such a situation I would rather abuse Casino Reeds, getting him up
quickly with Zillahs, play Mind of a Child with Forgotten Labyrinth,
and then just block with 2trads your attempt to get rid of the MoaC. or
Ivan Krenyenko getting Sire Index Finger, Freak Drive, Elemental
Stoicism, whee, where are your Bursts and Rotschrecks? :))
simply said, I knew there won't be any "fair" POT vs THA combat, but I
expected something more subtle and elegant than Brainwashes :)
Andrew 'Wes' Weston
"Bram Vink" <jja....@hccnet.nl> wrote
> 02:21 12/6 [Bvink] wes, still here?
I was not at that point, no.
I admit that, like Norm, I thought this would be about POT combat vs THA
combat, rather than what it was (though gratz on making the most
disgustingly evil deck ever to play in a 2-player game heh). That said, I
think the method you chose to prove this was inherently flawed. I mentioned
the, err, British experiment with seven-hand combat... no idea what they
called it. That, to me, would be a better way of demonstrating each
discipline's merits against each other. Or alternating rushes, such as
someone else suggested.
If it were up to me to arbitrate this, and it is obviously not, I would
insist that this didn't prove anything, doesn't count and nobody should owe
anyone else anything... other than a proper rematch, perhaps.
Still, I hope you both enjoyed your JOL experience... anyone who is
interested in trying it out, let me know :-)
Cheers,
WES
Bram Vink
Andrew 'Wes' Weston schreef:
Yeah Wes, thanks for helping out.
I think it's a good interface because of lacking the need for
real-time, though the input (commands) are more wieldy and take more
getting used to than the click-and-select interface of webvtes. (which
Omael, g3n, made.)
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
Bram Vink schreef:
Oh, and it's better (more oversightly, less buggy) than the vtesonline
engine. ;) Though the visual options of that one are nice. ;)
B
Anthony Coleman
Hey Gents,
I just read the transcript, and a few things that I think are relevant
are:
A> It was a stupid bet in the first place that could never prove
anything either way .
B> Bram totaly dodged combat - as was allowed in the rules of the bet,
but
does go against the spirit of the initial challenge :O)
C> He won the bet as per this threads rules.
D> Winning by using Cailean's special would avoid the issue of THA vs.
POT
combat in just the same way as using masters - It's abusing something,
Bram chose masters, Norm chose Cailean.
E> It was a stupid bet in the first place that could never prove
anything either way .
I think you two should have a REAL fight to settle this.. maybe with
axes on windy rooftops at sundown.. capes optional :O)
I bet on Norm for that one.
Ant
Johannes Walch
> I mentioned
> the, err, British experiment with seven-hand combat... no idea what they
> called it. That, to me, would be a better way of demonstrating each
> discipline's merits against each other. Or alternating rushes, such as
> someone else suggested.
We picked the British experiment up in the german forum a while ago. We
just call it "Battles". People usually do it for a bit after a new
expansion. It can be quite amusing, I have dont it myself and it tells
you a little about the cards actually work against each other.
--
johannes walch
Ankur Gupta
> POT combat in just the same way as using masters - It's abusing
> something, Bram chose masters, Norm chose Cailean.
I didn't realize Norm chose Cailean. I would suggest the following format
that I mentioned earlier:
"Ok, my 9 cap POT dude rushes your dude over there." <record results>
"Ok, now my 9 cap THA dude rushes your dude over there." <record results>
Repeat until boredom ensues.
The assumption being that no combat specials were included with either
minion. In addition, nobody would conceal out weapons or other things to
make life scary.
I think the real question here is this:
Which mono-combat package (POT or THA) is *sustainable* throughout the
course of a tournament-competitive game with a good tradeoff of combat
efficiency versus trumpy nature of other combat/non-combat packages?
To answer this question, POT and THA combat needs to be pitted not only
against itself, but against a ton of different combat modules. In other
words, a test (arguably also inconclusive, but anyway) like this:
POT fights ANI <record results>
POT fights VIC <record results>
POT fights SER <record results>
...
POT fights AUS <record results>
POT fights GUN <record results>
POT fights RICO WITH A BOMB <record results>
A similar test would be done replacing POT with THA. An obvious assumption
would be that the combat package of POT and THA is not allowed to change
between battles.
That's my take on it.
Ankur
POT. THA. RICO WITH A BOMB.
Doesn't matter how you do it, just so long as you
Play. The. Game.
Rob Grau
I'm just a little curious, Bram. What Thamaturgy combat cards did you
include in your deck? It seems like you didn't have any. Perhaps you
could post the deck.
Rob Grau
rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu
Bram Vink
Rob Grau schreef:
My deck was:
8x Cybele
2x William Biltmore
2x Louhi
--
27x Brainwash
11x Sudden Reversal
8x Parthenon
6x Jake Washington
7x Pentex Subversion
1x Movement of the Mind
--
Brainwash with obvious uses.
Sudden to counter the same strategy.
Jake for contestation purposes and to counter the same strategy, as he
can remove brainwash.
Pentex Subversion for an additional try after brainwash-lock would be
broken.
The MotM was obviously token.
Cheers,
B
Bram Vink
Bram Vink schreef:
Parthenon to be able to Sudden and Brainwash after.
Sudden of course also to beat zillah's and info highway/9caps.
B
Merlin
How is this deck "competitive" as was mentioned in the original
contest? Sure, perhaps Norm's deck wasn't "competitive" either, but
since he didn't get to play it there's no way to say it. But this deck
is *certainly* not *tournament* competitive (which i assume is the
gold-standard for the term "competitive"...otherwise its all casual
play...).
It gets either 1 10-cap or 2 vampires that = 18-19 pool, one of which
is Infernal. It has no pool recursion, it has no reactions, and while
it might get its first prey (if the guy continues to transfer to
big-caps after Brainwash is in play)...it certainly has no hope against
a deck that can play minion cards (i.e. its second prey). In a 4- or 5-
player game it *might* get a VP, then die. It probably won't make the
finals in a tournament with 10 or more players, and it certainly won't
win those finals short of divine intervention.
So what does this really prove? Don't play Bram in a 2-player game for
money? Never get involved with a Sicilian when death is on the line?
Was Norm actually playing Cailean? It's inferred in several posts but
never confirmed by Norm himself.
I'm a big fan of "completely obtuse," tho.
And wtf does this have to do with Pack Alpha, anyway?
Merlin
Peter D Bakija
On Dec 6, 6:17 am, "Bram Vink" <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> I fully agree with you on this point: If you know you're fighting
> thaumaturgy combat, and you play potence, can choose your vampire, and
> so on, you're going to win said combat. (and thus, a 2 player game)
So then why agree to such a challenege, and then completely completely
circumvent said challenge? As a third party onlooker, I gotta say, it
kinda makes you look like a tool. You could have just been like "Huh.
This is stupid. Hows about we don't waste our time?" instead.
> That was not the point. The point of the discussion was the following:
> A *competetive deck* (in, say, a tournament setting), which uses mono
> POT, and not weenies, is per definition badly built. POT needs a backup
> discipline to be viable in variable situations (close range, long
> range, S:CE, etc. combat).
Luckily, it has all those options available to it. You want close
range, you got IG/hand strikes. You want long range, you got Sewer Lids
or Earth Shock.
> A mono THA deck, which uses bigger vampires, is not per definition
> badly built, and needs a single set of cards to deal reasonably
> effectively with a multitude of situations
Are you honestly somehow saying that a mono Thaumaturgy deck using
large vampires is actually somehow a more viable deck in and of itself
than a mono Potence deck with large vampires? That is kind of absurd,
as, well, such a deck *isn't* viable and *is* by defenition badly
built. A mono Tha deck built out of large vampires is going to die just
as quickly as a mono Pot deck built out of large vampires in most
situations. So I'm really not quite sure what your point is here.
> not only that, but THA
> comes with effective backup disciplines, and is very cardefficient,
> leaving room for your deck to be competetive in other fields.
'Cause Potence does *not* come with effective back up disciplines? Ya
mean, say, Celerity or Dominate are not effective back up disciplines?
Or Auspex? Sure, the short combo of Burst/Rotschreck is very trumpy,
but has a lot of built in cost (you need to get in a fight on not your
turn which likely requires other discplines, you need to use an MPA,
you need to not have your strikes foiled, you need to not have your
Rotschreck SRed), but in terms of general effectiveness, Undead
Strength and Disarm is likely gonna do the same thing most of the time.
And you can do that on your own turn.
> This bet wouldn't prove anything of the sort, either way. I accepted
> your bet fully knowing it was a stupid bet, just for the sake of it,
> and that was my fault, and I apologize for not instead telling you said
> bet wouldn't prove or disprove the point I was making.
Yeah, see, you could have just been like "Heh. This is stupid. Hows
about we don't waste our time"?
> And I'm sorry to those who thought apocalyptical combat would ensue.
> When knowing what combat you'll get, Potence does beat Thaumaturgy,
> yes.
So then why are you somehow trying to convince people of the exact
opposite?
> Cailean mono-POT is not a competetive deck in any way, though, whereas
> THA combat can be so (theft/burst/shreck).
Mono THA huge vampire decks are going to be no more competetive that
mono POT huge vampire decks in pretty much any situation. So whatever
point you are trying to make is moot.
-Peter
Bram Vink
Peter D Bakija schreef:
<snip>
> -Peter
I'll repeat this slowly and in easy to understand steps.
* Potence isn't bad.
* Potence needs a backup discipline, or weenies.
* Playing Potence for your combat without a backup discipline for
combat, or weenies, is intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
* Thaumaturgy isn't bad.
* Thaumaturgy doesn't need a specific backup discipline, or weenies.
* Playing Thaumaturgy for your combat card without a backup discipline
for combat, isn't intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
Knowing this, odds are in favor of the Thaumaturgy deck being better in
competetive play.
Cheers,
B
witness1
Bram Vink wrote:
> Peter D Bakija schreef:
> <snip>
> > -Peter
>
> I'll repeat this slowly and in easy to understand steps.
>
> * Potence isn't bad.
> * Potence needs a backup discipline, or weenies.
> * Playing Potence for your combat without a backup discipline for
> combat, or weenies, is intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
Huh? If we're paying for large vampires, we're not getting just
potence, so we shouldn't be relying on just potence. We get cool
specials, other disciplines, titles, etc. Why would you expect any
large vamp/mono-discipline deck to do well? Any deck that deliberately
overpays for its minions is going to suck.
> * Thaumaturgy isn't bad.
> * Thaumaturgy doesn't need a specific backup discipline, or weenies.
Maybe not for combat, but try ousting someone with just THA. It still
needs a backup discipline, or weenies.
> * Playing Thaumaturgy for your combat card without a backup discipline
> for combat, isn't intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
Oh. Right. It doesn't need a backup COMBAT discipline. It still needs a
backup discipline (or weenies) in order to actually, y'know, oust it's
prey. Or are you going to explain why it doesn't?
> Knowing this, odds are in favor of the Thaumaturgy deck being better in
> competetive play.
Only if it's not really a mono-Thaumaturgy deck, though for some reason
you've limited the potence deck to mono-Potence. It doesn't make much
sense to limit either deck like that though. If you're deliberately
using only one discipline, failing to use weenies is pretty much just
overpaying for your minions, unless they have *fantastic* specials.
witness1
-believe the lie
Peter D Bakija
On Dec 6, 10:42 am, "Bram Vink" <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> I'll repeat this slowly and in easy to understand steps.
>
> * Potence isn't bad.
> * Potence needs a backup discipline, or weenies.
> * Playing Potence for your combat without a backup discipline for
> combat, or weenies, is intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
Potence without a back up discipline for combat works fine. If your
point is (as it was at some point, but doesn't seem to be anymore) that
a deck that uses nothing but Potence is worse than a deck that uses
nothing but Thaumaturgy, you are likely mistaken, as a deck that uses
nothing but Thaumaturgy is likely not that good. If your point is that
a deck that is otherwise a playable regular deck, and only had Potence
for combat, is intrinsically worse than a deck that is otherwise a
playable regular deck and only has Thaumaturgy for combat, then you are
likely incorrect, as decks of both types do just fine all the time.
> * Thaumaturgy isn't bad.
> * Thaumaturgy doesn't need a specific backup discipline, or weenies.
> * Playing Thaumaturgy for your combat card without a backup discipline
> for combat, isn't intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
That may be what you are saying now. But it isn't want you were saying
when this whole thing started. You were saying "Thaumaturgy beats
Potence". Which is not true. And it is all well and good that you are
making your point much clearer now. But what started this whole debacle
was you saying "Thaumaturgy beats Potence". Which is false.
> Knowing this, odds are in favor of the Thaumaturgy deck being better in
> competetive play.
Considering the sketchy history of Thaumaturgy combat in competetive
play, I think you are probably wrong. Decks with Thaumaturgy win
tournaments sometimes, but more often than not, this is 'cause said
deck also has Dominate and/or Auspex, not 'cause Thaumaturgy combat is
neccessarily that useful. Potence decks often win specifically 'cause
Potence is good at fighting. Thaumaturgy decks often win specifically
'cause they also have Dominate.
-Peter
Bram Vink
I haven't checked, but I have a pretty solid expectation that the
amount of Potence-without-backup-combat-discipline-or-weenies in the
TWD will approach zero, if not be zero.
I also have a solid expectation that there's a decent amount of
Thaumaturgy-without-backup-combat-discipline in there.
The argument is trivial. I'd put my money on the Thaumaturgy deck,
because it's more likely to win, because it's not actively trying to
suck. Also - a deck with bigcaps and using nothing but potence for
combat, is going to suck competetively.
There, am I being clear enough yet? I'd guess after this many
repetitions you'd stop saying that potence will beat thaumaturgy in a
single combat, which is completely beside the point.
B
Bram Vink
* Playing Potence ****for your combat**** without a backup discipline
***for
combat****, or weenies, is intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
* Playing Thaumaturgy ****for your combat cards**** without a backup
discipline
****for combat****, isn't intrinsically bad deckbuilding.
Cheers,
B
Peter D Bakija
On Dec 6, 11:52 am, "Bram Vink" <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> I haven't checked, but I have a pretty solid expectation that the
> amount of Potence-without-backup-combat-discipline-or-weenies in the
> TWD will approach zero, if not be zero.
There are plenty of decks that have only potence cards as combat in
their deck in the TWDA--decks that are otherwise not particularly
fighty, but have some Potence as hit back, for example, are moderately
common.
> I also have a solid expectation that there's a decent amount of
> Thaumaturgy-without-backup-combat-discipline in there.
There probably is. But they also probably have Dominate or Auspex,
which is why they win. Much like when the decks that have light Potence
for hitback defense win, they win for some reason other than the
Potence most of the time.
> The argument is trivial. I'd put my money on the Thaumaturgy deck,
> because it's more likely to win, because it's not actively trying to
> suck. Also - a deck with bigcaps and using nothing but potence for
> combat, is going to suck competetively.
What kind of deck are you imagining here, exactly, a "deck with big
caps and using nothing but potence for combat"? There are plenty of,
say, Nosferatu Prince decks that use big caps, and have mostly just
Potence for combat (in the form of hitback defense), and do fine
competetively. You kind of seem to be inventing a completly unused
design and pointing to it as an example of how your argument is
correct.
> There, am I being clear enough yet? I'd guess after this many
> repetitions you'd stop saying that potence will beat thaumaturgy in a
> single combat, which is completely beside the point.
And yet, the point you brought up (and started this whole debacle,
again, was):
"If you have POT as a sole combat discipline in a competetive deck,
you're doing something wrong. the THA will come out on top, even if it
only uses movement of the mind and theft of vitae."
That looks to me that you (i.e. you wrote that) are saying that Potence
will not beat Thaumaturgy in single combat. And as you made that the
point, I'm unclear now how you feel you can get around that point by
saying it is no longer the point.
-Peter
witness1
Bram Vink wrote:
> I haven't checked, but I have a pretty solid expectation that the
> amount of Potence-without-backup-combat-discipline-or-weenies in the
> TWD will approach zero, if not be zero.
> I also have a solid expectation that there's a decent amount of
> Thaumaturgy-without-backup-combat-discipline in there.
It seems likely to me that this is more because most clans with Potence
come attached with other combat disciplines (celerity, animalism,
fortitude) and less because thaumaturgy combat is actually that much
better on its own.
> The argument is trivial. I'd put my money on the Thaumaturgy deck,
> because it's more likely to win, because it's not actively trying to
> suck. Also - a deck with bigcaps and using nothing but potence for
> combat, is going to suck competetively.
Because you're hamstringing the potence deck by asking its player not
to utilize other common on-clan disciplines?
> There, am I being clear enough yet? I'd guess after this many
> repetitions you'd stop saying that potence will beat thaumaturgy in a
> single combat, which is completely beside the point.
I think you're being clear. I just think you're wrong.
witness1
-believe the lie.
Bram Vink
witness1 schreef:
> Bram Vink wrote:
> > I haven't checked, but I have a pretty solid expectation that the
> > amount of Potence-without-backup-combat-discipline-or-weenies in the
> > TWD will approach zero, if not be zero.
> > I also have a solid expectation that there's a decent amount of
> > Thaumaturgy-without-backup-combat-discipline in there.
>
> It seems likely to me that this is more because most clans with Potence
> come attached with other combat disciplines (celerity, animalism,
> fortitude) and less because thaumaturgy combat is actually that much
> better on its own.
Sure.
> > The argument is trivial. I'd put my money on the Thaumaturgy deck,
> > because it's more likely to win, because it's not actively trying to
> > suck. Also - a deck with bigcaps and using nothing but potence for
> > combat, is going to suck competetively.
>
> Because you're hamstringing the potence deck by asking its player not
> to utilize other common on-clan disciplines?
If said player does so volutarily - it indeed is hamstringing himself,
or crappy deckbuilding.
(this is a bit like saying something along the lines of - giovanni
pot-based combat sucks without a secondary combat discipline (ie. for)
- a clear point.)
> > There, am I being clear enough yet? I'd guess after this many
> > repetitions you'd stop saying that potence will beat thaumaturgy in a
> > single combat, which is completely beside the point.
>
> I think you're being clear. I just think you're wrong.
You see my point and by the last comment, you seem to agree.
> witness1
> -believe the lie.
Cheers,
B
witness1
Bram Vink wrote:
> witness1 schreef:
> > Bram Vink wrote:
> > > The argument is trivial. I'd put my money on the Thaumaturgy deck,
> > > because it's more likely to win, because it's not actively trying to
> > > suck. Also - a deck with bigcaps and using nothing but potence for
> > > combat, is going to suck competetively.
> >
> > Because you're hamstringing the potence deck by asking its player not
> > to utilize other common on-clan disciplines?
>
> If said player does so volutarily - it indeed is hamstringing himself,
> or crappy deckbuilding.
> (this is a bit like saying something along the lines of - giovanni
> pot-based combat sucks without a secondary combat discipline (ie. for)
> - a clear point.)
No more crappy than Tremere Thaumaturgy-based combat decks.
If that Giovanni doesn't utilize nec and/or dom (or some other common
denominator discipline) and you're also not using weenies, your deck
will suck because you're overpaying for your minions and underutilizing
them, not because your combat is potence instead of thaumaturgy. You
seem to be hung up on requiring another COMBAT discipline for support,
and I just don't see that as necessary.
It's more *common* for good non-weenie decks with potence to utilize
another combat discipline, because other combat disciplines are readily
available on vampires with potence.
Many combat-rush decks utilize another discipline alongside potence
because a combat-rush strategy is hard to work with a single discipline
(unless it's a weenie deck). But not every deck with potence combat
needs to be a rush deck, just as not every deck with thaumaturgy combat
is a rush deck.
> > I think you're being clear. I just think you're wrong.
>
> You see my point and by the last comment, you seem to agree.
If I'm really agreeing with you then you aren't saying anything
particularly useful, nor really anything at all about potence or
thaumaturgy. You could say the same thing about fortitude vs. celerity.
If one of them has no supporting disciplines, and is not a weenie deck,
it won't do as well as the other one with a supporting discipline or
two, whether that supporting discipline is another combat discipline or
not.
witness1
-believe the lie.
Bram Vink
witness1 schreef:
Ok, you are then not seeing the point.
In combat, both fortitude, celerity, thaumaturgy and animalism, do
decently well without a backing discipline. I do put thaumaturgy below
the other three, in effectivity, but it's solid, effective, and very
efficient.
I feel Potence, on the whole, does not. Both for being very
combo-reliant (cardwise, and more importantly cardflow-inefficient),
and not having defensive options, it's more often than not a wasted
discipline for competetive decks. Much moreso than any of the other
examples.
Potence can shine with a backing discipline like CEL, FOR, or ANI (tha
less so - as it doesnt combine well) which increase its effectivity
and/or give it defensive options.
Without, it's extremely cardintensive, which is bad for being winny.
Cheers,
B
Nosferatu_3
Maybe it's just my play group, but I find thaumaturgy to be a
less-than-exciting combat discipline. My playgroup (except me)
generally uses two combat schemes: really focused nasty combat (weenie
for with trap, weenie POT, imbued memories with trap, cel guns, etc) or
about 20 end combats in a deck. Thaumaturgy does not stack up too well
against either of these categories. If other decks are half-ass
fighting, THA is fine, but against heavy end combat and heavy combat
it's crap. At least POT has grapple for the end combat decks and trump
some other forms of combat. (5 pt sewer lid vs cel gun weenie = VERY
NIIIIICE) Granted, THA has soul burn and blood fury, which are cute,
but POT can also shattering blow if the range happens to be close, to
permanently neutralize a weapon. For fighting, I'd have to give the
edge to POT. Also don't forget you can't torporize anyone with theft.
Big minus.
Peter D Bakija
Bram Vink wrote:
> Ok, you are then not seeing the point.
The original point was "Thaumaturgy is better then Potence". That point
has now changed. And so I'm sure everyone is kinda unclear on the
point.
> In combat, both fortitude, celerity, thaumaturgy and animalism, do
> decently well without a backing discipline. I do put thaumaturgy below
> the other three, in effectivity, but it's solid, effective, and very
> efficient.
Thaumaturgy is certainly solid in that with 2 cards (Apportation and
Theft), you can build a mostly viable light combat angle to work in
with whatever else your (Dominate and/or Auspex) deck does. Heck, mix
in a handfull of Burst/Walk/Rotschreck, and you have a reasonable
strong combat back up. But Potence can do pretty much the same
thing--if you match the Thaumaturgy Deck's Apportation/Theft 1 for 1
with Increased/Gate, you are, in most cases, gonna do about the same
thing.
-Peter
Dai
1) I never said anything about specific big caps. I only mention
capacity because when I judge a discipline, I look at what it does for
both my big vampire and my weenies.
2) My criticism of Potence combat is that it requires combat combos and
that its deck space intensive. Yes, it trumps S: CE, which is likely
the most common form of combat defense. But it is trumped completely by
damage prevention, which is likely the second most likely form of
combat defense. It is also beaten by maneuvers (grapple). I see
fortitude played practically as often, if not more, than presence.
Given a choice between a Potence combat module and a Thaumaturgy combat
module, I will always choose Thaumaturgy, since all it requires is 12
Thefts + maneuvers for icing, although not necessary. Thaumaturgy
covers both maneuvers AND damage prevention. Finally, all transient
combat has a difficult time getting table wins. Its too easy to burn
through your deck too fast and end up with no combat at all when it
comes down to 2 or 3 players, especially if you start burning your
cards to move them out of your hand. Tsimisze, ally or weapon combat
work because you get stronger towards the end of the game, whereas
transient you run out of steam.
I have tried playing potence a lot (since I collected 20+ Immortal
Grapples:D) and these issues always recur.
3) Hence, I bemoan large vampires with Potence because its usually of
little use. Take Cailean. For me, Potence is the *worst* of his
disciplines! OBF, PRE, ANI and dom are *all* useful for him. The only
thing POT does is it enables Iron Glare for him.
The only thing that Potence does for a large vampire (besides Iron
Glare and outferiors) is it allows weenie vampires based on potence-
yet the optimal weenie potence combat module isn't all that great for a
large cap, and vice versa.
4) On the other hand, Thaumaturgy I adore on my large caps, for
*combat* (not just for Rutor's Hand). I have a Fleurdumal deck and one
of the only reasons I have success with it is Theft of Vitae. As a
prince, she can wake with 2nd Tradition, strike with Theft of Vitae and
ignore most S: CE with Blessings of Chaos. To me, that is effective
combat. I'd rather run 5 X Blessings of Chaos to deal with S: CE than
12 X Immortal Grapple- after all, there is more than enough chance that
neither prey nor predator is running S: CE, and all those Grapples,
although they can be very useful in other cases, aren't worth running
in those numbers.
Cheers,
Dai
Dai
honestly the winner would have come down to who drew more of the combat
trump to the other. Either who drew the most maneuvers/ dodges, or
trumps such as Disengage to cancel Grapple, etc...
I admit in this situation, Potence has an upper hand since it has
effective strategies both at long and at close, whereas, Thau would
almost always prefer to do the dirty at long.
Cheers,
Dai
Kushiel
> I have a Fleurdumal deck and one
> of the only reasons I have success with it is Theft of Vitae. As a
> prince, she can wake with 2nd Tradition, strike with Theft of Vitae and
> ignore most S: CE with Blessings of Chaos. To me, that is effective
> combat.
Hmm. That's a cool deck idea.
Anyway, I mostly just wanted to point out that what you're talking
about here isn't Thaumaturgy combat. It's THA combat backed up by a
card provided by another discipline. So you're kind of muddying the
issue a bit here.
John Eno
Andrew 'Wes' Weston
"Anthony Coleman" <Bunti...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> I bet on Norm for that one.
Agreed... but please check your JOL games. We've been pinging you...
Bram Vink
Dai schreef:
This man is correct. ;)
Cheers,
B
ira...@gmail.com
> Which mono-combat package (POT or THA) is *sustainable* throughout the
> course of a tournament-competitive game with a good tradeoff of combat
> efficiency versus trumpy nature of other combat/non-combat packages?
If you're going to test a mono-combat package, why don't you actually
play it in a game situation? Like 4 player games with cross table
allies playing the same discipline. Kinda like Sect Wars, but instead,
Discipline Wars.
Ira
librarian
Nice -
There's probably even a weird tournament variant in there somewhere.
best -
chris
Abysmal Horror
>
> ira...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > If you're going to test a mono-combat package, why don't you actually
> > play it in a game situation? Like 4 player games with cross table
> > allies playing the same discipline. Kinda like Sect Wars, but instead,
> > Discipline Wars.
>
>
> There's probably even a weird tournament variant in there somewhere.
I'm in! Sign me up for Team Dominate.
...
Why are you all looking at me like that?
~ Aby
librarian
Abysmal Horror wrote:
> librarian wrote:
> >
> > ira...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > If you're going to test a mono-combat package, why don't you actually
> > > play it in a game situation? Like 4 player games with cross table
> > > allies playing the same discipline. Kinda like Sect Wars, but instead,
> > > Discipline Wars.
> >
> > Nice -
> >
> > There's probably even a weird tournament variant in there somewhere.
>
> I'm in! Sign me up for Team Dominate.
>
>
Yeah, and Team Thanatosis should get a 10 pool handicap (start with 40
pool)...
best -
chris
Blooded Sand
On Dec 8, 12:40 am, "librarian" <inor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Abysmal Horror wrote:
> > librarian wrote:
>
> > > ira...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > If you're going to test a mono-combat package, why don't you actually
> > > > play it in a game situation? Like 4 player games with cross table
> > > > allies playing the same discipline. Kinda like Sect Wars, but instead,
> > > > Discipline Wars.
>
> > > Nice -
>
> > > There's probably even a weird tournament variant in there somewhere.
>
> > I'm in! Sign me up for Team Dominate.Yeah, and Team Thanatosis should get a 10 pool handicap (start with 40
> pool)...
>
> best -
>
> chris- Show quoted text -
Can I have the quiet team please? And we should get 10 pool exctra, cos
veryone knows being quiet sucks (apparently).
Mono Qui actually has combat capabilty. The kind that very few other
combat disciplines are gonna match. Why?:
Pot: Dies to Taste of Death
Tha: See above
For : Blood Sweat
and so on and so on.
Any discipline if left without backup is going to fizzle, 99% of the
time. VtES works BECAUSE disciplibnes support each other. Why is Arika
more broken than any of the other IC's? Not cause of the votes and
bleed, the other 6 have that. Nope its cos she's got PRE AND FOR AND
OBF and stuff.......
tobiasopdenbr...@notsocoldmail.com
Peter D Bakija schreef:
> Protean combat has no answer at all to S:CE (well,
> ok, Dog Pack. But I have never seen a successful Dog Pack combat deck.
> Ever.)
Nor have I, really. But my anarch beckett/kyoko/smallish gangrel
gehenna deck with lotsa diversions, weighted walking sticks, 2 dog
packs, and intercept locations took a GW. The one time I played it. :)
It could be an interesting challenge, to devise such a deck. A real
tight combat module using gangrel that have some atypical ability to
assist ousting (i hate to mention dominate here_, would probably be it.
Don't have the decklist here, I'm afraid.
T
Blooded Sand
On Dec 9, 1:17 pm, "tobiasopdenbr...@notsocoldmail.com"
<tobiasopdenbr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Peter D Bakija schreef:
>
> > Protean combat has no answer at all to S:CE (well,
> > ok, Dog Pack. But I have never seen a successful Dog Pack combat deck.
> > Ever.)Nor have I, really. But my anarch beckett/kyoko/smallish gangrel
> gehenna deck with lotsa diversions, weighted walking sticks, 2 dog
> packs, and intercept locations took a GW. The one time I played it. :)
>
> It could be an interesting challenge, to devise such a deck. A real
> tight combat module using gangrel that have some atypical ability to
> assist ousting (i hate to mention dominate here_, would probably be it.
>
> Don't have the decklist here, I'm afraid.
>
> T
Most screwy Dog Pack deck ever is deck using Movement of the slow body,
regenaration, rapid healing, force of will, dawn ops, skin of night and
flesh of marble. velly velly sick. and silly. and does funnny things
with bleeding for 5 or more.....
tobiasopdenbr...@notsocoldmail.com
tobiasopdenbr...@notsocoldmail.com schreef:
> Don't have the decklist here, I'm afraid.
Found it:
1x Sarah Raines
1x Bothwell
1x Gustavo Morales
1x Fahd al-Zawba`a
1x Janni
1x Kyoko Shinsegawa
1x Guillermo Arsuaga
1x Harry Reese
4x Beckett (ADV)
2x Powerbase: Los Angeles
1x Visit from the Capuchin
3x Parthenon, The
1x Seattle Committee
7x Galaric`s Legacy
2x Perfectionist
5x Blood Doll
1x Archon Investigation
1x Jake Washington (Hunter)
1x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Haven Uncovered
1x Fame
1x Anarch Free Press, The
1x Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The
1x WMRH Talk Radio
1x Direct Intervention
8x Bum`s Rush
1x Dawn Operation
4x Friend of Mine
6x Wake with Evening`s Freshness
4x Groundfighting
17x Diversion
8x Weighted Walking Stick
1x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
2x Dog Pack
1x Mr. Winthrop
1x Sport Bike
1x Dragonbound
1x Recalled to the Founder
1x Slow Withering, The
1x Torpid Blood
1x Anthelios, the Red Star
1x Thirst
Tobias