Gehenna Events causing players to leave...

vermillian

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May 20, 2004, 9:05:52 AM5/20/04

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Event cards are broken.

No I mean, they BREAK people's decks. Make them unplayable. They tick
off playgroups, causing them to disintegrate. Gehenna is here!!!

Take for example Fall of X, or the discipline costing one, or the one
that nukes Earth Meld or obtenebrate. If someone actual decides to
play these cards, or others like them, its going to tick a lot of
people off. Granted, this is only going to happen in Casual play, as I
don't think most of the too radical ones are tournament worthy, but
its enough to make playgroup sizes decrease in size.

We've already had 1 person leave because of Gehenna, and it influenced
2 others to not play as much, if at all. Two other people expressed
concerns when Prophecies came out, hating that format so much, and
fearing that Gehenna was going to be like it. Now that Gehenna is out,
when asked about their feelings, one of those last two replied
"Yeah... I feared Gehenna was going to be like that. I don't think
they'll see much play. When I DO see them, I hope that player gets
ousted soon, as its going to most lkely ruin my fun" (ok
paraphrasing).

Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
mine?

~SV

Colin McGuigan

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May 20, 2004, 10:45:04 AM5/20/04

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vermillian wrote:
> Take for example Fall of X, or the discipline costing one, or the one
> that nukes Earth Meld or obtenebrate. If someone actual decides to
> play these cards, or others like them, its going to tick a lot of
> people off. Granted, this is only going to happen in Casual play, as I
> don't think most of the too radical ones are tournament worthy, but
> its enough to make playgroup sizes decrease in size.

Last night, I was playing Toreador wall, and my predator was Blood
Brothers. I block, and it's "Octopod-Prevent-Disarm". Well, my 10-cap
Toreador (who was my only minion) with a Guardian Angel goes to torpor,
and is quickly eaten. Game was over for me at that point, more or less.[1]

Same thing would've happened with Kiss of Ra. Or Pentex Subversion. Or
a Daring-the-Dawn + Sensory-Deprivation.

Shit happens, and sometimes you just have the wrong deck to cope with.
If your playgroup gets ticked over that...

> Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
> mine?

Your playgroup is whack. =P

[1] Yeah, I hang on for a bit, bring out another minion, block some
stuff, but with only one minion to block my predator's five vampires, it
was only a matter of time.

--Colin McGuigan

David Zopf

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May 20, 2004, 11:36:11 AM5/20/04

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"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com...

I lack respect for someone who decides to leave so soon after a release.
New cards can rain on old parades. Mature players adapt and overcome, (or
at the very least play a few games until there is a body of experience to
support their initial opinions). If there is a truly unbalancig effect, WW
will change the ruels to compensate, but not without some play-proven
substantiation.

Simpering whiners will throw their VTES cards in the air and go play YuGiOh
if their favorite WoD character didn't get the stats they thought were
deserved. It can be an occasional consequence, especially if your group is
populated with rabid VTM fanboys. Your group is better off without such
flakes, even if it is a bit smaller.

Maybe they'll get over themselves and come back. Maybe not...

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

pallando

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May 20, 2004, 11:56:01 AM5/20/04

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"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com...
> Event cards are broken.

snip

The main problem here is that V:TES players are not used to seeing drastic
shifts in the game environment. So far we haven't seen any of those: the two
big WW sets, Sabbat War and Camarilla edition, brought mainly reprints.
Final Night fleshed out strategies revovling about the Indies. Bloodlines
gave us some cool miniclans which are lovely to experiment with.

Granted, Anarchs and Black Hand introduced completely new strategies to the
game. But none of these expansions shook up the environment a lot. Players
are still exploring new strategies but they did not replace any of the
existing strategies / deck archetypes.

There are TCG out there where the environment shifts a lot with every
expansion. Decks that were killers are rendered all but useless once the new
set hits the street. People are used to that and they don't complain about
it. This is neither better nor worse that the way V:TES has evolved. But a
certain amount of change is necessary to prevent stagnation.

If the Events are really that broken remains to be seen. Before I can decide
myself I want to play a couple of games. Most probably some Events will see
play frequently while others while be mostly ignored. If some events really
pose a big threat player will take precautions.

And don't forget: unlike the Prophesies a certain event might never actually
hit the table in a given game. This is because each event can only be played
once and there is a very limited number of events you can play (one per
turn). So it doesn't make sense to add more than a couple of events to a
deck.

regards

pallando(at)gmx(dot)at

David Wilson

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May 20, 2004, 4:57:22 PM5/20/04

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I tried a fall of X card yesterday, and the IC player who used Emergency
Preparations the whole game for his big ones, nixed it in the bud. So I did
nothing

David

Daneel

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May 20, 2004, 5:26:44 PM5/20/04

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"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:<Kf4rc.11$n3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...

> I lack respect for someone who decides to leave so soon after a release.
> New cards can rain on old parades. Mature players adapt and overcome, (or
> at the very least play a few games until there is a body of experience to
> support their initial opinions). If there is a truly unbalancig effect, WW
> will change the ruels to compensate, but not without some play-proven
> substantiation.

Words with harshness uncommon to the source. I feel like I need to add
a bit though, to the characterisation of the 'mature' player. I'm sure
different things can hook up (or disappoint) different players. Not
necessarily a question of 'maturity'. Or if it is, I'm not sure
'maturity' is an objective concept (rather than an easy form of
dismissal). Just my cents... No point, really. ;)

Bye,

Daneel

The Lasombra

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May 20, 2004, 7:51:11 PM5/20/04

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On 20 May 2004 06:05:52 -0700, vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian)
wrote:

>Event cards are broken.

>Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
>mine?

It isn't just yours.

David Wilson

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May 20, 2004, 8:26:00 PM5/20/04

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> >Event cards are broken.
>
> >Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
> >mine?
>
>
> It isn't just yours.

We have had a flury of activity here in Ann Arbor. I will admit that is
almost entirely new players, but they love the new set, in fact they are
going crazy over it. Our local store has gone through most of the 20 box
order, and is working to restock now. I can understand that older groups
would have some problems with it, but I think over time the cards will
balance out. If there are 3 Gehenna decks at a table it will be the same as
three combat decks, unless you're prepared for that, you're dead.

I would like to know the problems you are experiencing. Are they from old
staple decks failing, or is the radical change too much for the
anachranistic players?

David
>

The Lasombra

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May 20, 2004, 9:57:12 PM5/20/04

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On Thu, 20 May 2004 20:26:00 -0400, "David Wilson" <Wil...@vtes.org>
wrote:

>I would like to know the problems you are experiencing. Are they from old
>staple decks failing, or is the radical change too much for the
>anachranistic players?

One easy example.

Recalled to the Founder.

Pair with Thirst and Blood Trade.

ALL support for the game online and in storylines up until Prophecies
has been clan based. Now, all clan based decks get to experience a
Protect Thine Own effect just because someone sat down at the table
and decided to min/max their crypt and fuck you over rather than do
something that has always worked well.

Support for the game from the online community:
Clan newsletters

Support for the game from Storyline events:
75%+ same clan decks

Response from game designers:
PTO for all players with decks based on a clan

We have already received proposals to ban Gehenna Events during local
play. In order to keep players, it may happen. There were certainly
be purposefully "event free" tables at every gaming session.

Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com

Curevei

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May 20, 2004, 10:36:03 PM5/20/04

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>Event cards are broken.
>
>No I mean, they BREAK people's decks. Make them unplayable. They tick
>off playgroups, causing them to disintegrate. Gehenna is here!!!

Could have been worse. Could have been the ISA and Drakh. Oh, never mind.

>Take for example Fall of X, or the discipline costing one, or the one
>that nukes Earth Meld or obtenebrate. If someone actual decides to
>play these cards, or others like them, its going to tick a lot of
>people off. Granted, this is only going to happen in Casual play, as I
>don't think most of the too radical ones are tournament worthy, but
>its enough to make playgroup sizes decrease in size.

As they don't help you win, it's much like someone playing anything that
doesn't help them win that's really annoying.

>We've already had 1 person leave because of Gehenna, and it influenced
>2 others to not play as much, if at all. Two other people expressed
>concerns when Prophecies came out, hating that format so much, and
>fearing that Gehenna was going to be like it. Now that Gehenna is out,
>when asked about their feelings, one of those last two replied
>"Yeah... I feared Gehenna was going to be like that. I don't think
>they'll see much play. When I DO see them, I hope that player gets
>ousted soon, as its going to most lkely ruin my fun" (ok
>paraphrasing).
>
>Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
>mine?

I don't find your play group whack because I've been through massive bitching
and moaning along the lines of "this screws up the game". Wait, most of that
was mine.

Anyway, I still find players leaving a game for most reasons to be more of an
issue with the players than the game.

V:TES has, kind of, two options: expand superficially - just keep adding more
clans and disciplines that look different but work the same way; add truly new
stuff to the game. I could probably tolerate the former; I'm sufficiently
distractable to go "ooh, it's !Chimerstry, the really flexible and expensive
discipline of creating solid objects" or something. But, the latter is the
norm for CCGs. And, it tends to make CCGs increasingly worse over time as they
become bloated with rules that get away from the elegance of original design
and with undesirable card combinations. But, it's better than the alternative
- finding another CCG to spend thousands of dollars/other on.

Event mechanic seems like a good one. Problem with Gehenna cards is being
mostly hosers or otherwise negative global effects. Well, could have been a
bunch of obnoxious new victory conditions that screw up the fundamental game
dynamic or something instead. At least they suck enough to not see ubiquitous
play. At least they aren't as harsh as the Prophecy League prophecies were
(well, given that they were "easy" to put into play).

Nico

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May 21, 2004, 3:21:19 AM5/21/04

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But you seem to forget that Gehenna is the end of the world (at least
for Vampires !!!) and now you seem to imply that it is the end of our
game...

Just the same that for the PTO, to my mind... stop complaining, don't
buy it and play the "old way"...

And in tournaments where Gehenna will be legal, just be prepared to
it...

Just as I was thinking to play with 3 or 4 Tradition Upheld when i
lost a game to my "Caitiff-Pander becoming Princes-Archbishop Anarch
Revolt Antediluvian Awakening Predator's Deck" !!!!!

You will always find someone who will bet you, but we have to try
harder to improve our decks...

I hope i am well expressed and will be understood...

Nico, Prince-to-be of Oye Plage, France

Flux

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May 21, 2004, 5:24:04 AM5/21/04

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Nico wrote:
> You will always find someone who will bet you, but we have to try
> harder to improve our decks...

Maybe one problem with Events is that if they have a significant effect
(like some apparently do), they can break all pre-Gehenna decks. Ie, in
order to survive an Events deck, you have to be playing some Gehenna cards
yourself. None of the previous new mechanics did this, in fact that's one of
the things I liked in VtES.

Flux

Jay Kristoff

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May 21, 2004, 6:41:46 AM5/21/04

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Flux wrote:

>Maybe one problem with Events is that if they have a
>significant effect (like some apparently do), they can
>break all pre-Gehenna decks.

All is a big word. Certain events fit right in with the plans
of old, familiar decks. If those decks aren't already using
the events that are good for them, then they really shouldn't
mind when one of their "safe" events gets played by someone
else. If an event card did end up hosing it's prey, random table
seating would play as big a factor as the event cards themselves.

>Ie, in order to survive an Events deck, you have to be playing
>some Gehenna cards yourself.

What? "Events decks" still get ousted by the same stuff that's
been ousting every other deck since '94.

>None of the previous new mechanics did this, in fact that's one
>of the things I liked in VtES.

Neither does this one.

If Gehenna event cards turn out to be hated as much as
some of these initial reactions indicate, then playing them
would become a big risk. The events player might soon
feel "the whole table hates me" wrath that an Anarch Revolt
player often gets.

it's going to be alright,
Jay

Greg

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May 21, 2004, 8:03:08 AM5/21/04

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The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<p2hqa0l2a7juc0mbj...@4ax.com>...

What a bunch of whiners!! Looks like we need to send you all a lot of
cheese for all the wine!!Be like the Marines, Adapt and overcome!!!

The Lasombra

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May 21, 2004, 9:20:07 AM5/21/04

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On 21 May 2004 05:03:08 -0700, meyer...@aol.com (Greg) wrote:

>What a bunch of whiners!!

I am glad you were able to deal with this in such an adult fashion.

>Looks like we need to send you all a lot of cheese for all the wine!!

Did you manage to come up with this all by yourself?

>Be like the Marines, Adapt and overcome!!!

This is a game.

It was at one time considered the best multiplayer strategy game where
you could control your own strategy and how it would impact the rest
of the table.

If it is no longer fun, and no longer possible to play strategically
and to control your own strategy, the players who believe this will
choose to have better things to do with their time.

There is no reason posts insulting people that don't even read or post
to the newsgroup should exist.

Please choose to discuss "the card game" in all future posts to this
newsgroup.

A quick list of people that support the game:

Flux

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May 21, 2004, 9:02:34 AM5/21/04

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Jay Kristoff wrote:

> Flux wrote:
>
>
>>Maybe one problem with Events is that if they have a
>>significant effect (like some apparently do), they can
>>break all pre-Gehenna decks.
>
> All is a big word.

'Can' is not.

> Certain events fit right in with the plans
> of old, familiar decks. If those decks aren't already using
> the events that are good for them, then they really shouldn't
> mind when one of their "safe" events gets played by someone
> else. If an event card did end up hosing it's prey, random table
> seating would play as big a factor as the event cards themselves.

That argument would apply to any kind of hoser card, even a broken one,
because it assumes the event cards get played regardless of table seating.

So the argument is moot.

>>Ie, in order to survive an Events deck, you have to be playing
>>some Gehenna cards yourself.
>
>
> What? "Events decks" still get ousted by the same stuff that's
> been ousting every other deck since '94.

I was thinking about the hoser type cards.
For example, Nightmares upon Nightmares: any old weenie deck is screwed by
someone playing this card, the only possible defense they have is making a
new deck with a few Emergency Preparations (which will be useless if nobody
plays any events). A similar reasoning applies to 'Fall of the X' vs. many
vote decks.

>>None of the previous new mechanics did this, in fact that's one
>>of the things I liked in VtES.
>
> Neither does this one.

If you want to avoid/defend against a certain Event that screws your deck,
what can you do other than playing Emergency Preparations? From I've seen so
far, not much (but I'll admit I haven't had the chance to look at the set
properly yet).

Flux

vermillian

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May 21, 2004, 9:31:45 AM5/21/04

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"David Wilson" <Wil...@vtes.org> wrote in message news:<31crc.342$j9....@news.itd.umich.edu>...

More specifically. Although I can't get into too much detail due to
some letter of the law or something.

Two of the people playing were quite bitter about the whole
experience, like I am. Man, doms strong, princes are good, why would
you play with any thing else, etc... basically we like playing to win,
but we want non-traditional things to be rewarded with a good chance
to win by the designers of the game.

When we saw the game changing rules that we knew were going to be the
embodiment of Gehenna events the three of us, another younger player,
and one of our few ladies, decided they were troubled. Us bitter buds
realized that random stuff ruining games was probably the worst thing
about the game (sitting two spaces to the left of a noob, some one
packs an anarch revolt deck, a really competent person playing a
weenie deck, or a SB deck, or just sitting down next to a deck you
shouldn't be expected to have an answer to with your deck). Gehenna
seems to be introducing these factors.

I['m not saying events will see tournament play. I'm saying that
they'll se casual play, and throw yet more random stuff in the mix to
ruin our games.

Though I think I need to change my mindset to truely apprciate this
game. Tobias has presented such a philosophy that I think I can
appreciate. Go read his thread on concepts of 'broken ness' and
'boring, hopeless games'.

Sufice to say, The ladies out of CCG gaming, the two other bitter buds
are pretty much down purchasing cards and are looking for fairer more
engaging CCGs (and developing our own) and the other guy, not too
sure... but he hasn't been playing lately, and he cites Gehenna as his
reason.

We just recently received two noobs, they seem rather apathetic about
Gehenna themselves, though its finally convincing them that it was
time to quit, like it is for those other players.

~SV

Timlagor

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May 21, 2004, 10:55:12 AM5/21/04

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Flux expounded:

1) I think there's a Black Hand thingummy for removing events
2) Be armed to hose the guy with the deck that will gain from the event
you are scared of.

Emmit Svenson

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May 21, 2004, 11:07:57 AM5/21/04

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The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bunqa0ld97dpkhsj6...@4ax.com>...

> Recalled to the Founder.
>
> Pair with Thirst and Blood Trade.

Personally, I'd rather play it with Blood Weakens, The Slow Withering
and Wormwood. That way I could play with a lot of Caitiff. Caitiff
aren't a clan, so they get around Recalled to the Founder's Effect.
Nasty.

> Now, all clan based decks get to experience a
> Protect Thine Own effect just because someone sat down at the table
> and decided to min/max their crypt and fuck you over rather than do
> something that has always worked well.

I can understand the rage. It's some consolation that most decks will
only have to lose one vampire to the card, and it's likely that your
predator or prey will lose a vamp too.

I remember the furor over Slaughterhouse, and later over
Brinksmanship. I remember the furor over Baltimore Purge. I remember
the furor over Meddling of Semsith. The sky may not be falling.

Joshua Duffin

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May 21, 2004, 12:27:44 PM5/21/04

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"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:75bdf7ed.04052...@posting.google.com...

> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<bunqa0ld97dpkhsj6...@4ax.com>...
>
> > Recalled to the Founder.
>

> I remember the furor over Slaughterhouse, and later over
> Brinksmanship. I remember the furor over Baltimore Purge. I remember
> the furor over Meddling of Semsith. The sky may not be falling.

Heh. Ironically, I still think all the cards you mention were bad ideas
(at least in the way they were implemented). :-)

Josh

if it weren't for that meddling semsith!

Luiz Col?n

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May 21, 2004, 12:53:26 PM5/21/04

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vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com>...

(snip)

> We've already had 1 person leave because of Gehenna, and it influenced
> 2 others to not play as much, if at all. Two other people expressed
> concerns when Prophecies came out, hating that format so much, and
> fearing that Gehenna was going to be like it. Now that Gehenna is out,
> when asked about their feelings, one of those last two replied
> "Yeah... I feared Gehenna was going to be like that. I don't think
> they'll see much play. When I DO see them, I hope that player gets
> ousted soon, as its going to most lkely ruin my fun" (ok
> paraphrasing).
>
> Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
> mine?
>
> ~SV

Hi-

I do respect your player's POV, but I must say that I fail to
understand it.

About the prophecies... well, they *do* break decks. So what? It's
fun! When we pick a random temporary rule, we are all eager to know
what effects it will have (in fact, we are disappointed when it
doesn't change things much for the round).

When my strategy is in trouble, I think it's fun. Because it
challenges me, makes me want to improve my deck, makes me a better
player.

In the end, if I lose, at least I had an amazing time. I am not in
this game [only] to win; I'm in this game to have fun. Winning is a
consequence.

About the Event Cards, I must be honest: I haven't played with them
yet. From the card texts, I think they are not that broken, since they
are not that simple to use. I may change my mind when I see them in
play, though.

But, even if we see powerful Gehenna decks in the future, where is the
problem??? Am I upset because I'll have to put my brain to work and
come out with new ways of winning games, rather than the same strategy
I've been using for 10 years?

I don't mean at all to sound disrespectful here, and I apologize if I
did. But I really don't understand what takes a player to react like
that.

Cheers,

Luiz

David Zopf

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May 21, 2004, 2:05:06 PM5/21/04

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"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:tmvra05vuuimerv21...@4ax.com...

> A quick list of people that support the game:
>

Heh. You 'forgot' a pretty important one:

www.thelasombra.com

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

John Flournoy

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May 21, 2004, 2:13:16 PM5/21/04

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Flux <the_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<40ae0045$0$16103$a729...@news.telepac.pt>...

Of course, if you are playing a Sabbat vote deck, playing even a
single Blooding is sufficient to prevent Fall of the Sabbat from
screwing you. (The Camarilla does not have such an option, but a LOT
of players are happy to see Camarilla vote decks have a vulnerability.

Also, keep in mind that 'many' vote decks do not actually get
completely bent by having their titles removed - the vote decks that
rely on Bewitching Oration and Awe (and others like Ventrue HQ,
Foundation Exhibit, Power Structure, Ventrue Directorate Assembly,
Alamut, Madrigal, etc) still will have the ability to get votes off.
They may be winning 9-3 instead of 22-7, but that won't automatically
prevent a KRCG from passing.

Yes, Fall of the Camarilla will seriously impair Archon/Anathema, PTO
and Parity Shift vote decks. You know what? I'm just fine with that.
If a player wants to devote a portion of his deck to insuring he can
get 4 events off quickly and without being crippled by the 'do not
replace' issues, he's using a sizable chunk of his deck to stop a very
narrow group of decks (and harm a slightly broader group.) And if
those types of decks don't appear, you've just wasted a lot of your
deck.

Anecdote: I played a Sabbat deck in a decent-sized tourney earlier
this winter. In four rounds of play, I faced _one_ deck out of 15 that
would have cared about Fall of the Camarilla, which I walked all over
without needing FotC. Had I been deckbuilding for FotC (and I was
expecting to see at least one PTO deck and one Toreador vote-n-bloat
deck at the tourney), I'd have been screwed myself for the entire
tourney with all that wasted effort and useless card slots.

Yes, some of these event cards are _really_ devastating to specific
deck types. If you can accurately predict what deck you're going to be
facing in a given game, the events can be game-makers. But many of the
events are fairly corner-case, where if you've guessed wrong about
your opponents' decks and come up against the wrong thing, you're at a
significant disadvantage. Just like many other focused deckbuilding
strategies.

Here's another thing to consider. Nightmares Upon Nightmares may be a
serious hoser for you when you play a weenie deck, as you describe.

Let's look at the flipside: You're playing with Nightmares Upon
Nightmares deck, to take care of those pesky weenie decks. Are you
going to play NUN if the only weenie deck at the table is your
grand-prey? If it's in your opening hand, are you willing to play it
Turn 1 before you can determine which players it'll screw? It might
only harm people cross-table, making for an easy game for your prey,
after all.. So how long do you wait? How many copies do you put in
your deck in the first place, to even give yourself a reasonable
chance of seeing it when it can help you? What if _nobody_ is playing
weenies?

Again, if you're lucky enough to _know_ that your buddy is playing a
lot of weenie decks, sticking copies of NUN (or another Hose-event
card against the right type of deck) would be smart. If you're _not_
certain of what you'll face, adding NUN into your deck is a gamble -
you might not face the right type of deck at all, it might be
cross-table, you might not see the Event if you put in too few or get
stuck with a hand full of useless ones if you put too many in.

This makes Events very different from the Prophecies - the Prophecies
simply happen, whether or not a player wants them to, without any
deckbuilding strategy being required to maybe cause them to act, and
with a serious randomness factor involved. Events do not randomly
screw decks, they _deliberately_ change things, and that deliberation
is the reward for a player taking the chance that including such cards
in his deck will be at all beneficial, something that is by no means
guaranteed for most if not all of the events.

> >>None of the previous new mechanics did this, in fact that's one
> >>of the things I liked in VtES.
> >
> > Neither does this one.
>
> If you want to avoid/defend against a certain Event that screws your deck,
> what can you do other than playing Emergency Preparations? From I've seen so
> far, not much (but I'll admit I haven't had the chance to look at the set
> properly yet).

Note that certain strategies already _had_ 'you're screwed' cards out
there that forced them to alter their deck build. For instance, the
existence of Arenthebes has forced weenie-swarm-bleed decks to adjust
their strategy, because a horde of bleeds for 1 goes nowhere against
it. So they had to adjust by either putting more bleed modifiers in,
or adding a larger vampire or two to the crypt.

> Flux

-John Flournoy

Timlagor

unread,

May 21, 2004, 4:05:45 PM5/21/04

to

John Flournoy expounded:

> Anecdote: I played a Sabbat deck in a decent-sized tourney earlier
> this winter. In four rounds of play, I faced _one_ deck out of 15 that
> would have cared about Fall of the Camarilla, which I walked all over
> without needing FotC. Had I been deckbuilding for FotC (and I was
> expecting to see at least one PTO deck and one Toreador vote-n-bloat
> deck at the tourney), I'd have been screwed myself for the entire
> tourney with all that wasted effort and useless card slots.

No one was using Second Traditions?

> Note that certain strategies already _had_ 'you're screwed' cards out
> there that forced them to alter their deck build. For instance, the
> existence of Arenthebes has forced weenie-swarm-bleed decks to adjust
> their strategy, because a horde of bleeds for 1 goes nowhere against
> it. So they had to adjust by either putting more bleed modifiers in,
> or adding a larger vampire or two to the crypt.

Most of them add Aranthebes too.

Frederic Genest

unread,

May 21, 2004, 5:50:42 PM5/21/04

to

> I don't mean at all to sound disrespectful here, and I apologize if I
> did. But I really don't understand what takes a player to react like
> that.

I'll hazard a response to this:

1) conservatism
2) fear of an unknown, untested, untried factor
3) bad reading of the card limitations ("do not replace..." etc.)
4) ...

Basically, as Emmit Swenson pointed out, a lot of cards have seen the
light that caused uproars among the community. Not for much thought.

I hate PTO because your vamps simply go "whooph"; but if I might be
the target, or if the player is about to become too powerful, I may
act against him (even crosstable).

I hate Baltimore's Purge, especially when I'm the Prey to the Meth and
he plays Vulnerability on me and such. The last time, I had a
rush/combat deck and turned against him, torporizing his minions and
ruining his game. I assume that kind of behavior pissed him off, but
going cross-table or ousting the Meth that ruins your deck (i.e. doing
the Salmon) is a valid and potent defensive strategy
that may help you win.

Basicallly, if that Event "ruins" your game, remove it from the game
(or the Meth playing it, or...). This is part of the game.

> Luiz

Frederic.

Johannes Walch

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May 22, 2004, 1:00:14 PM5/22/04

to

> If you want to avoid/defend against a certain Event that screws your deck,
> what can you do other than playing Emergency Preparations?

Well, ousting the player controlling the events seems a viable option to me.
By the time an "Event Deck" has set-up for playing it愀 Fall of the
Camarilla there is a high probability that it has been killed before by some
cheesy predator (i.e neo-malk, weenie presence ..) :-)

--
johannes walch

John Flournoy

unread,

May 23, 2004, 10:55:05 AM5/23/04

to

Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b187179e...@news.eclipse.co.uk>...

> John Flournoy expounded:
> > Anecdote: I played a Sabbat deck in a decent-sized tourney earlier
> > this winter. In four rounds of play, I faced _one_ deck out of 15 that
> > would have cared about Fall of the Camarilla, which I walked all over
> > without needing FotC. Had I been deckbuilding for FotC (and I was
> > expecting to see at least one PTO deck and one Toreador vote-n-bloat
> > deck at the tourney), I'd have been screwed myself for the entire
> > tourney with all that wasted effort and useless card slots.
>
> No one was using Second Traditions?

Several decks at the tourney were; I only faced one through four rounds.

>
> > Note that certain strategies already _had_ 'you're screwed' cards out
> > there that forced them to alter their deck build. For instance, the
> > existence of Arenthebes has forced weenie-swarm-bleed decks to adjust
> > their strategy, because a horde of bleeds for 1 goes nowhere against
> > it. So they had to adjust by either putting more bleed modifiers in,
> > or adding a larger vampire or two to the crypt.
>
> Most of them add Aranthebes too.

Excellent point. It still makes them alter their deck build.

-John Flournoy

ThunderFoot

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May 24, 2004, 1:45:15 AM5/24/04

to

Flux <the_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<40adcd11$0$16099$a729...@news.telepac.pt>...

> Maybe one problem with Events is that if they have a significant effect
> (like some apparently do), they can break all pre-Gehenna decks. Ie, in
> order to survive an Events deck, you have to be playing some Gehenna cards
> yourself. None of the previous new mechanics did this, in fact that's one of
> the things I liked in VtES.

They may make you change your strategy a lot, but I don't think they
directly "break" things as such. If they encourage people's decks to
be more toolboxy to cope with more potential issues then I think
that's a step forward not a step back. I hate playing against focused
voting decks _more_ than I hate stealth bleed because I so often get
hurt crosstable by Domain Challenges and the like, so if they have to
deal with Fall of the Camarilla or Sabbat or they have the _choice_ of
either adjusting their deck or of occasionally getting massively stung
then that's great.
Anything that encourages diversity rather than focus is good in my
books.
Even so, as someone said, it doesn't stop them passing votes, it just
levels the playing field a bit, but _they_ are the players who are
going to have action modifiers to help them pass votes anyway and they
can always pack a "Fall of the Sabbat" themselves to even things up a
little or the event cancelling card (which has a dual use with the
large caps such a deck would usually use).

Even if your strategy has a major problem due to a particular event
and you hadn't planned for it, you can _usually_ work around it in
game if you're more cautious and play carefully. I saw that with the
Prophecies, that some of them could really damage you, but if you
played more carefully than other players you may well be hurt less
regardless of planning.

You have both pre-game and in-game methods of dealing with things, but
you have to actually use your brain and _deal_ with them rather than
just expecting everything to continue as it has.
That's fine, though, the new anarch cards have gotten rid of a lot of
the predictability you used to get from any specific vampires you saw
played. "Oh, they brought out so and so, they must be using _this_
strategy".
Events make things unpredictable, but there are a lot of restrictions
inherent in their use and it's fairly easy to plan for the specific
ones that hurt your deck and to ruin any strategy that was _relying_
on them.

> Flux

ThunderFoot.

Metropolis

unread,

May 24, 2004, 2:37:48 AM5/24/04

to

Lasombra,

I share many of your feelings about Recalled to the Founder. I think
the card should have been made in a fashion similar to Becoming of
Ennoia. That card requires at least two other Gehenna Cards
controlled by another methuselah, although I think it hurts more than
BoE. The immunity granted by RttF is one consolation though. I have
so far played 4 Gehenna decks, and I have found that some like
Absiliard's Army benefit other players more, mostly because they get
to use them 1st. Emergency Preparations is a great card, because it
is so versatile, and someone nixed my Fall of the Sabbat the other day
with it, so I do not think the Gehenna Events will have a long term
detriment to the game. Once the popularity of Gehenna fades, there
will probably be 1-2 decks per table max, so like a combat deck,
unless they can take on the whole table I would be surprised if they
are more disruptive than weenie bleed. In the meantime I would
suggest EPs, and they are nice for the untap if not needed.

Good Luck,

let me know what you encounter,

David Wilson

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 24, 2004, 11:55:07 AM5/24/04

to

Curevei wrote:
> Could have been worse. Could have been the ISA and Drakh. Oh, never mind.

Man. What were those guys thinking? I mean, yeah, ok, the ISA wasn't
that bad, but that whole Drakh idea was just complete folly--a whole
faction that was really difficult to actually win with, but *really*
easy to make everyone else lose with.

Now I haven't seen all the event cards yet, and likely I haven't seen
the really brutal ones yet (what does Recalled to the Founder do?),
but from the ones I have seen, they mostly look kinda random, not real
helpful, but not real damaging either, and the ones that are brutal
that I have seen (Fall of the Camarilla, say) are really hard to
actually play, so I suspect that they won't come up all the much (and
even if, like, FotC is in play, it only really affects not that many
decks--Camarilla vote decks are likely shut down unless thay are using
Bewtiching and Awe and Tradition decks will be totally hosed).

What are the super killer events that I haven't seen yet that are
totally pissing folks off so far?

-Peter

Dave the Romantic

unread,

May 24, 2004, 12:36:22 PM5/24/04

to

I don't feel Gehenna event cards are really that big of a deal when
taking into consideration their disadvantages.

Firstly, you aren't the sole beneficiary. Sure, maybe you are playing
a nasty combat deck that will love Dragonbound -- but you risk your
predator or prey being one too! I was ousted in one of my last games
because my grandprey (in a four player) had played it and allowed his
prey to oust me in this way. The prey then went on to win the game
easily, showing just how easily this card can backfire on you.

Secondly, you'd be an idiot to try to base a deck on event cards when
emergency preparations and the BH ritual are around. This is
especially true when you are pushing for event cards that require
*other* event cards in play. It's just not that hard to get rid of in
comparison to say, a non-location master (like Bleeding the Vine)

Finally, the cost is nothing to scoff at. I've liked playing with
Meddling before, but losing the card slot has killed me. Yes, yes,
I'm serious, I know for a fact that I've died twice from having one
less card I could draw. So like Meddling, I'm going to think twice
before I slap down events that reduce my hand site and may slow me
down permanently.

I like the new set, and I'm happy to have a new game element. But as
far as being truly unbalancing by comparison, I really have to
disagree. There's no lack of decks that completely screw other decks
with no Gehenna card involved. Like everything else in Vtes, you have
the option of adapting. Buy a few Gehenna cards and get those EPs if
you are worried about it. I still get knocked out by stealth/bleed
decks and curse myself for not having more Archon Investigations in
the deck; and they're not common!

Sincerely,
Dave the Romantic

David Wilson

unread,

May 24, 2004, 1:15:10 PM5/24/04

to

> the really brutal ones yet (what does Recalled to the Founder do?),

Recalled to the Founder
Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least
two other Gehenna cards in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, if he
or she controls more than two vampires of the same clan, he or she burns one
such vampire. If that vampire's capacity is above 5, that Methuselah
becomes immune to the effects of this card for the remainder of the game.

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 24, 2004, 4:15:38 PM5/24/04

to

David Wilson wrote:

> Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least
> two other Gehenna cards in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, if he
> or she controls more than two vampires of the same clan, he or she burns one
> such vampire. If that vampire's capacity is above 5, that Methuselah
> becomes immune to the effects of this card for the remainder of the game.

Yeah, ok. That is pretty wack-tackular. On the up side, it is kinda hard to
play (has to be the third Gehenna card in play and costs you ahand slot),
and you get to choose who gets wacked, but still, you have to burn vampires
just 'cause you are playing a clan deck?

Yeah, I can see how this would piss people off. A lot.

Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your rest home."
-Elvis

Greg

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May 24, 2004, 9:47:00 PM5/24/04

to

> >What a bunch of whiners!!
>
> I am glad you were able to deal with this in such an adult fashion.

I feel my critisism is justified. Most of the sad sob stories I read
here remind me of the cry babies that are in our playgroup. During the
league I was able to dispose of many prey using a simple, focused,
bleeder deck. Which I might add usually disposed with my prey in 3 or
4 rounds.

> This is a game.

It still is

> It was at one time considered the best multiplayer strategy game where
> you could control your own strategy and how it would impact the rest
> of the table.

It still is as long as you quit crying and stay focused.

> If it is no longer fun, and no longer possible to play strategically
> and to control your own strategy, the players who believe this will
> choose to have better things to do with their time.

Everyone has an opinion and yours is unfortunately, wrong. If you take
the time to read all of the cards you will find that the field has
been leveled and all have firm footing.

> There is no reason posts insulting people that don't even read or post
> to the newsgroup should exist.

If you read enough of these crybaby postings you eventually respond in
this way. And finally, if you were insulted, good!! Don't read any
more. Go scour in the corner like a rat.

The Lasombra

unread,

May 24, 2004, 9:53:16 PM5/24/04

to

On 24 May 2004 18:47:00 -0700, meyer...@aol.com (Greg) wrote:

>> If it is no longer fun, and no longer possible to play strategically
>> and to control your own strategy, the players who believe this will
>> choose to have better things to do with their time.

>Everyone has an opinion and yours is unfortunately, wrong. If you take
>the time to read all of the cards you will find that the field has
>been leveled and all have firm footing.

No, it isn't my opinion.

My group is in the process of being destroyed.

Please, learn to read.

>> There is no reason posts insulting people that don't even read or post
>> to the newsgroup should exist.

>If you read enough of these crybaby postings you eventually respond in
>this way. And finally, if you were insulted, good!! Don't read any
>more. Go scour in the corner like a rat.

More adult behaviour! Wonderful.

Please find a reason to post that has something to do with the game.

Insulting people that do not read this newsgroup and do not post to it
is the worst sort of rubbish imaginable in a newsgroup designed to
discuss a game.

Please post all flames and intent to flame to the appropriate
newsgroup.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=alt.flame&meta=

You will certainly find your behaviour appropriate and appreciated
there.

Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com

Curevei

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May 25, 2004, 12:00:06 AM5/25/04

to

>My group is in the process of being destroyed.

Just because of Gehenna cards?

I'm having trouble picturing that. I could see Gehenna being a straw that
breaks the camel's back.

Either way, it's not superclear what has players so up in arms or what WW could
do about it. The one example of the events doesn't seem like it should be
enough by itself.

The Lasombra

unread,

May 25, 2004, 12:21:07 AM5/25/04

to

On 25 May 2004 04:00:06 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote:

>>My group is in the process of being destroyed.

>Just because of Gehenna cards?

Of course.

Life is always as simple as a card game.

Thank you for playing.

salem

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May 25, 2004, 3:49:11 AM5/25/04

to

On Tue, 25 May 2004 00:21:07 -0400, The Lasombra
<TheLa...@hotmail.com> scrawled:

>On 25 May 2004 04:00:06 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote:
>
>>>My group is in the process of being destroyed.
>
>>Just because of Gehenna cards?
>
>Of course.
>
>Life is always as simple as a card game.
>
>Thank you for playing.
>

hmmmm. is this particular story of woe (your playgroup being
destroyed) similar to the one a while back where you had quit this
game for good and were selling all your cards?

i really do hate the way it's so hard to read nuances on a text only
forum.... (this does not mean i advocate smiley image gifs or whatnot,
though. those things suck!)

salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"I like to play the field"-LSJ

Greg

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May 25, 2004, 6:52:08 AM5/25/04

to

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<he95b0p47dv3jvr8e...@4ax.com>...

> On 24 May 2004 18:47:00 -0700, meyer...@aol.com (Greg) wrote:
>
> >> If it is no longer fun, and no longer possible to play strategically
> >> and to control your own strategy, the players who believe this will
> >> choose to have better things to do with their time.
>
> >Everyone has an opinion and yours is unfortunately, wrong. If you take
> >the time to read all of the cards you will find that the field has
> >been leveled and all have firm footing.
>
> No, it isn't my opinion.
>
> My group is in the process of being destroyed.
>
> Please, learn to read.
> >> There is no reason posts insulting people that don't even read or post
> >> to the newsgroup should exist.
>
> >If you read enough of these crybaby postings you eventually respond in
> >this way. And finally, if you were insulted, good!! Don't read any
> >more. Go scour in the corner like a rat.
>
> More adult behaviour! Wonderful.
>
> Please find a reason to post that has something to do with the game.
>
> Insulting people that do not read this newsgroup and do not post to it
> is the worst sort of rubbish imaginable in a newsgroup designed to
> discuss a game.
>

Discussion is one thing, all I read is a bunch of crying whimps that
would be better off playing "Magic"!!

Daneel

unread,

May 25, 2004, 8:08:54 AM5/25/04

to

> My group is in the process of being destroyed.

I'm sorry to hear that.

While I'm not able to comment on topic (at least until our ordered
Gehenna boxes arrive), in theory I'm seeing where these things might
be coming from.

For me the apex of the game was the post-Bloodlines era; I invested
more in Bloodlines than in all the consequent expansions. For me it is
inevitable to see a decline of sorts (simply because no later set has
ever even approached the high standards Bloodlines has set for VTES).

I hope WW will sooner or later realize that in order to preserve the
old timers (and expand the player base) it is sometimes beneficial to
take steps towards making the game as fool-proof as possible. There is
also only a limited amount of disappointment any given player is
willing to tolerate when it comes to a hobby passtime. While keeping
players in a state of constant frustration might improve sales in the
short run by providing an advertisement of sorts, it may not prove to
be the best long-term strategy.

Conclusion: to play only "dead" games. It is impossible to be
disappointed by further sets if none are ever coming... ;) [Note: I
was pursuing this policy when WW caught me unaware by purchasing the
game from WotC. In fact, I was positively surprised that SW, FN and BL
were of high quality. With hindsight I'd probably be happier had the
game stopped right there, as the later sets offered more frustration,
compared to almost none in these sets.]

Bye,

Daneel

Derek Ray

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May 25, 2004, 8:34:56 AM5/25/04

to

In message <b8986a16.04052...@posting.google.com>,
meyer...@aol.com (Greg) mumbled something about:

>Discussion is one thing, all I read is a bunch of crying whimps that
>would be better off playing "Magic"!!

What I read here is that you're an absolute idiot with

-- no idea of card balance
-- little or no experience against strong players
-- no real comprehension of the game itself

Your approach of "simple, focused, bleeder deck" may sound good on
paper, and sometimes it works, but it's going to explode when it comes
up against decks that are expecting bleeders... especially when those
decks are in the hands of decent players. And you know, bleed IS still
the most common thing out there.

So who are you again?

Where do you play?

Why should your offhand, AOL, thirteen-year-old opinion matter?

-- Derek

a host is a host from coast to coast
and no one will talk to a host that's close
unless the host that isn't close
is busy, hung, or dead

Slytherin

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May 25, 2004, 9:03:15 AM5/25/04

to

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com>...

> Event cards are broken.
>
> No I mean, they BREAK people's decks. Make them unplayable. They tick
> off playgroups, causing them to disintegrate. Gehenna is here!!!
>
> Take for example Fall of X, or the discipline costing one, or the one
> that nukes Earth Meld or obtenebrate. If someone actual decides to
> play these cards, or others like them, its going to tick a lot of
> people off. Granted, this is only going to happen in Casual play, as I
> don't think most of the too radical ones are tournament worthy, but
> its enough to make playgroup sizes decrease in size.

>
> We've already had 1 person leave because of Gehenna, and it influenced
> 2 others to not play as much, if at all. Two other people expressed
> concerns when Prophecies came out, hating that format so much, and
> fearing that Gehenna was going to be like it. Now that Gehenna is out,
> when asked about their feelings, one of those last two replied
> "Yeah... I feared Gehenna was going to be like that. I don't think
> they'll see much play. When I DO see them, I hope that player gets
> ousted soon, as its going to most lkely ruin my fun" (ok
> paraphrasing).
>
> Has anyone here had this problem with their playgroup, or is it just
> mine?
>
> ~SV

I'm not entirely sure how people think that Gehenna (Event, as there
will be more of them, I'm sure) will ruin the game. I'm surprised if
people are leaving now and citing something that has only just been
released, and therefore surely not seen a great deal of play (it's
only been out 9-10 days).

At the ECQ in the UK just held, I have had one of my players turn
round and state that he is no longer going anywhere else in the
country for tourneys and not to host the ECQ again. Why? Was Gehenna
being discussed and how broken/ruining the Gehenna cards would be -
No.

The reason was Stealth Bleed. He has never played it, never will and
was fed up sitting at every table and finding at least one stealth
bleeder, usually combined with plenty of deflects from the others. He
reckons that the biggest f*£K up in this game is the strength of
Dominate, followed by gross amounts of stealth.

He hasn't however quit, why? Because he likes to see variety in the
game, like at the club, and he currently thinks that the Gehenna cards
will add more to that.

You need to ask yourself why you truly want to quit a game that you
have probably spent a lot on. Because of one card type, that as yet
has not seen much play (unless you play every evening) or because the
metagame in your area is just power play.

I've seen many complaints about noobs, and other deck types. It's just
another new deck type. See how it goes, and if the community falls
over, then I'll be winning all the championships next year.

Cheers

Andy
VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge

vermillian

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May 25, 2004, 9:23:57 AM5/25/04

to

rmtc...@aol.com (Dave the Romantic) wrote in message news:<966c1c27.04052...@posting.google.com>...

> I like the new set, and I'm happy to have a new game element. But as
> far as being truly unbalancing by comparison, I really have to
> disagree. There's no lack of decks that completely screw other decks
> with no Gehenna card involved. Like everything else in Vtes, you have
> the option of adapting.

Key point. MOST major deck archetypes do NOT have the ability to adapt
to some of these things (Gehenna Events, and previous strategies... so
yes I'm insinuating that this has been a thing in existence from day
one, but has been inflated a bit with this new expansion) are raising.
Say SB decks, or combat decks, or really, any non-tool boxed deck.

> Buy a few Gehenna cards and get those EPs if
> you are worried about it.

Once again, I'm not worried about them seeing tournament play. I'm
worried abou them seeing casual play and pissing people off with the
game fucking rules changes. Not everyone in my playgroup is a pro, and
some will play these Gehenna cards without quite understanding that
its not a good card and not helping them. They'll just see "ooohhh...
shiney red card!!!" and pack it into their deck and basically fuck an
entire table over... course not that their presence as a noob wasn't
already fucking table balance... *Sigh* such is the Jyhad...

~SV

David Cherryholmes

unread,

May 25, 2004, 9:43:25 AM5/25/04

to

Slytherin wrote:

> I'm not entirely sure how people think that Gehenna (Event, as there
> will be more of them, I'm sure) will ruin the game. I'm surprised if
> people are leaving now and citing something that has only just been
> released, and therefore surely not seen a great deal of play (it's
> only been out 9-10 days).

Wouldn't want to breathe on an NDA, but some of them might have been
staring at events for quite a bit longer. Personally, I have no problem
with them. Nothing in the Gehenna events look worse for me, in a
totally selfish way, than getting chased around the table by Arika or
the Malk powerbleed decks, or the Four Flavors of Weenie that are
staples in my "casual" metagame. I see a lot of new tools to screw
those curve-hugging, unimaginative, "got my lunch money stolen once too
often and now the world will PAY!" cheesemeisters. Bring on Gehenaa,
far as I'm concerned.

> The reason was Stealth Bleed. He has never played it, never will and
> was fed up sitting at every table and finding at least one stealth
> bleeder, usually combined with plenty of deflects from the others. He

> reckons that the biggest f*ŁK up in this game is the strength of

> Dominate, followed by gross amounts of stealth.

Suitably interesting targets and gateway drugs. The explanatory power
is strong.

--

David Cherryholmes

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 25, 2004, 11:44:02 AM5/25/04

to

Greg wrote:
> Discussion is one thing, all I read is a bunch of crying whimps that
> would be better off playing "Magic"!!

Dude. Who are you and where did you come from?

I have never seen you before, and suddenly, *wham*, you are right in
the middle of things, basically posting innanity. I mean, yeah, ok,
you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are generally
better off framing your discussion in ways other than "Oh! You are so
whiny!" and "You should be playing Magic!"

Really. If you want to be involved in the discussion, go nuts. But
everyone will respond to you much better if you, like, provide well
thought arguments and defend your points with something other than
"I'm so sick of this! Stop whining!" If you think Jeff is wrong, that
is fine. Explain to Jeff why he is wrong with examples and evidence to
back up your statements, rather than, like, just being a troll.

-Peter, who is just filled with helpful advice.

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 25, 2004, 11:52:46 AM5/25/04

to

Greg also wrote:
> If you read enough of these crybaby postings you eventually respond in
> this way. And finally, if you were insulted, good!! Don't read any
> more. Go scour in the corner like a rat.

No, no, really. Who are you? Why are you here? Where did you come
from?

If you read enough of these crybaby postings? Dude. This is the
internet. It is where people go to complain about the worst episode
ever and to disect the scientific innacuracies of Earth II. It is
where people go to complain about things. If you have a problem with
people complaining about things in a well thought out, articulate
manner, this newsgroup is probably not the place for you.

And if you want to argue with folks and tell them they are wrong?
Fine--that is why we are all here. But do so with an intelligent and
well though arguments and examples--that will get people to read your
stuff and think you aren't a fool.

-Peter

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 25, 2004, 3:36:19 PM5/25/04

to

Derek Ray wrote:

> What I read here is that you're an absolute idiot with
>
> -- no idea of card balance
> -- little or no experience against strong players
> -- no real comprehension of the game itself
>
> Your approach of "simple, focused, bleeder deck" may sound good on
> paper, and sometimes it works, but it's going to explode when it comes
> up against decks that are expecting bleeders... especially when those
> decks are in the hands of decent players. And you know, bleed IS still
> the most common thing out there.
>
> So who are you again?
>
> Where do you play?
>
> Why should your offhand, AOL, thirteen-year-old opinion matter?

Dude! We should *soooo* sign up to be on the next "Law and Order" expansion
show together! We'd get those perps to talk one way or the other!

:-)

Derek Ray

unread,

May 25, 2004, 7:00:22 PM5/25/04

to

In message <BCD91873.170E9%pd...@lightlink.com>,
Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> mumbled something about:

>Dude! We should *soooo* sign up to be on the next "Law and Order" expansion
>show together! We'd get those perps to talk one way or the other!

You know, I think it's supposed to be "Bad Thug, Good Thug", not "Bad
Thug, Worse Thug". =)

Peter D Bakija

unread,

May 25, 2004, 9:38:33 PM5/25/04

to

Derek Ray wrote:

> You know, I think it's supposed to be "Bad Thug, Good Thug", not "Bad
> Thug, Worse Thug". =)

Yeah. I knew there was a flaw in my logic somewhere...

Petri Wessman

unread,

May 26, 2004, 7:18:24 AM5/26/04

to

Slytherin wrote:

> At the ECQ in the UK just held, I have had one of my players turn
> round and state that he is no longer going anywhere else in the
> country for tourneys and not to host the ECQ again. Why? Was Gehenna
> being discussed and how broken/ruining the Gehenna cards would be -
> No.
>
> The reason was Stealth Bleed. He has never played it, never will and
> was fed up sitting at every table and finding at least one stealth
> bleeder, usually combined with plenty of deflects from the others. He

> reckons that the biggest f*ŁK up in this game is the strength of

> Dominate, followed by gross amounts of stealth.

Echo that. My long-term observations give exactly the same conclusion, the
tournament metagame is very much tilted in favor of Dominate and
bleed-bounce in general. It's very rare to see a finals deck that doesn't
have Dominate, dominate is simply so easy and powerful (bleed bonus + good
bleed bounce). If you don't have bleed bounce you need a *very* good deck,
since everyone's bleeds will end up with you. The term "bleed sink" is
thrown around a lot.

Dominate is by far the most "valuable" tournament discipline, there's no
real contest. Would be nice to see that change, but...

I think the biggest problem is bleed bounce, actually. It's so absurdly
useful in a tournament environment that decks playing without it are very
likely to lose. More general use-ways of hosing bleed bounce would be good
(Regerhagen's Hold is ok, but 2 pool cost is iffy, and Contigency Planning
mostly sucks - and both use up precious master slots). Sigh.

//Petri

Petri Wessman

unread,

May 26, 2004, 7:20:42 AM5/26/04

to

Greg wrote:

> Discussion is one thing, all I read is a bunch of crying whimps that
> would be better off playing "Magic"!!

<plonk>

Back under the bridge with you.

//Petri

the_capuchin

unread,

May 26, 2004, 1:33:47 PM5/26/04

to

> > Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least
> > two other Gehenna cards in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, if he
> > or she controls more than two vampires of the same clan, he or she burns one
> > such vampire. If that vampire's capacity is above 5, that Methuselah
> > becomes immune to the effects of this card for the remainder of the game.
>
> Yeah, ok. That is pretty wack-tackular. On the up side, it is kinda hard to
> play (has to be the third Gehenna card in play and costs you ahand slot),
> and you get to choose who gets wacked, but still, you have to burn vampires
> just 'cause you are playing a clan deck?
> Yeah, I can see how this would piss people off. A lot.

I do understand how it can be disrupting in a given game, but I can't
say that it is much more disruptive in many games as, say, PTO can be.
Don't like to raise too much debate on PTO *again*, but let's see
something about Recalled to the Founder and PTO as potentially ruining
cards against mono-clan decks:

Effects:
- RttF burns any vampire, regardless of its sect.
- PTO burns non-cams only.
but...
- RttF burns only the *third* vampire of the same clan,
you get to choose which one to burn, and if you choose a 6
or higher cap, you're free again to influence out more vampires
(provided you can generate more pool to do that).
- PTO can be used many times, to burn vampires at will, and
you lose the vampire the PTO player wants you to lose. You can
influence out a new one (same pool condition above), but you risk
losing the
new one altogether since PTO can be player again.

Seems to me that regardless of the clan I choose to build a mono-clan
deck with, I'll be more screwed by PTO than RttF if I do not choose to
play Camarilla. If I do, I suddenly experiment how it is to get PTO'ed
by someone if RttF is played, but there's a chance I can get around it
unless I'm playing a weenie deck *or* absolutely rely on my
mid-to-high caps and *need* more than two vampires. Seems to me that
any non-focused crypt can deal with it in the long run (switching to
"let's-hunt-defend-and-make-pool" mode, rushing the guy who played
RttF, voting him off, buying somehow the simpathy of other players to
gang up on him, or just plain ousting him with bleeds). Note that many
of these options are unavoidable given the deck you're using if you
gets wacked by not only other old hoser cards, but even if you're prey
to, say, a !Malk S+B deck, an Anarch Revolt deck, a Corruption deck, a
multi-rush deck...

My Ivan Krenyenko's potence and chimestry deck would be totally hosed
by RttF, and would have to defend itself rushing the RttF player to
allow me to get a third minion - but still it had to do the same
against a !Malk predator with S+B and Comas some days ago, and I had
to risk sending a third minion, a weenie, to torpor while blocking a
big bleed just because I couldn't do nothing without Ivan and Joaquina
Amaya with the Eye of Hazimel. Can't see the difference. Effectively I
*had* to play with two minions because of Coma.

And how about Requirements?

- RttF relies on having other two Gehenna cards in play. Of course, in
any event, throwing in one or two copies of RttF will, in most games
you play, make it goes directly to the ash heap. You can't rely on
other decks putting down Gehenna events to play it. That means at
least 10 card slots to your deck devoted to play RttF, and it may only
appear in the late game, when usually all remaining players have more
than three vampires, lessening its impact. And if you *do* get the
luck to play two events and RttF early, chances are everyone will gang
up on you, since it will affect everyone.
- PTO requires one Inner Circle vampire, something easy to pull off
just using three or four copies of your chosen one in a crypt. It can
benefit from the structure already built for the whole deck (other
votes, Ventrue HQ, Bewitching Oration, Iron Glare or whatever). You
can safely remove a handful of any other vote to thrown in PTO's; in
terms of opportunity cost, it only checks with your prey if he's
playing non-Camarilla to be useful, not a whole table condition as
RttF do (if it would screw other players, more or less than you prey,
if there is more mono-clan decks to be targeted etc.).

So, besides being ineffective against Cam decks, PTO seems to be way
more easy to pull and disruptive to you than RttF.

I think most Gehenna events work in the same way. And just for the
record, Recalled to the Founder seems random to the average CCG
player, but for the fans who dig in the background, it is way fitting
to the theme of the whole set - the Antediluvians call their children
to consume their blood, since it's the only way they can "recharge"
their power during these Withering times. Not that anyone should
bother with that anyway - I just like it ;-)

Fabio Sooner
V:EKN NV for Brazil