blackout adds credit
kansas city pinball.com
coil fires.
anyone know what causes this?
john
seymour...@excite.com
Sounds like a short in the coin door wiring.
klevens
contacts too close)?
Do you have the schematics?
Are these two one the same row/column?
Possibly a bad diode or a short??
If not that, then it's going to be a logic problem but I wouldn't know where
to look. Not sure if I was any help (or ever am), but keep us posted on your
findings.
Lee
in article 1114734666.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, kansas
city pinball.com at r...@johncglennon.com wrote on 4/28/05 8:31 PM:
mik...@omuonline.net
kansas city pinball.com
i did switch test and everything there seens ok. i checked the start
button to be sure the switch was not to close.
i also made sure the out hole switch stayed open when the coil fired
and it still did it.
the only other thing i can think of to do is put a new diode on the
coil.
john
kansas city pinball.com
so it is always playing a two player game.
sorry
john
Daina Pettit
kansas city pinball.com <r...@johncglennon.com> wrote:
>this should say that a "player" is added not a "credit".
>
>so it is always playing a two player game.
>
>sorry
>
I believe this is a bug in the standard flipper code for the early WMS solid
state games. They didn't debounce the start button. The bug would only be
seen when you have multiple credits or free play on the machine. Thus when
these machines were new no one cared or noticed.
This has been talked about before. Google for more info.
--
Daina Pettit=da...@xmission.com, voice: (801)277-6296, msg: (801)277-0888
UNIX Consulting Salt Lake City, Utah http://www.MrPinball.com
Mr. Pinball Classified--More Pinball Ads than ANYWHERE, and they're FREE!
sc...@farrar.com
because at the same time I had a Gorgar, Firepower & Alien Poker setup
and none of them had the problem. I've also had another AP and a Flash
(with Sys6 Flipper ROMs) and neither of them experienced that issue.
Here's the rest of the story...
My Blackout was experiencing out issues - like it would just quit
scoring while the ball was in play. To fix that I ended up resoldering
the Crystal (per a suggestion placed here on RGP). That fixed my
problem. Interesting enough it also fixed my problem with the Blackout
starting up the occassional 2 Player game (1 Player for the push of the
Credit Button and the second Player when the Outhole kicked the ball
into the Plunger Lane).
Try resoldering the legs of the Crystal on the MPU to see if that
resolves the issue.
I find it hard to believe its a Flipper ROM issue as I would have
expected to see it on all of my Sys6 Green Flipper ROM games instead of
just one out of 6.
Also, kind of strange that people keep posting this in conjunction with
a Blackout - anyone experience this on a Sys6 Green Flipper ROM game
other than a Blackout?
BTW: At the same time I soldered the Crystal I did swap out the CPU
with a different type. Search for BLACKOUT on RGP as I placed that
info within a thread. I either replaced a CPU w/o RAM to one with RAM
on board OR vice-versa. Perhaps it was the swapping of the CPU that
fixed my problem - I dunno, but one of the two things did the trick!!
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> > when you start a one player game a credit is added when the out hole
> > coil fires.
Aside from the obvious possibility of the start button switch being gapped
too close (too sensitive)- If you have the game set on free play (setting 18
at "00"), then the game has a higher tendency to tack on a credit when you
hit the start button. There is a built in delay in the Blackout software
that may make it appear that it's happening as a result of the outhole
kicker firing, but it's probably not- it's a switch de-bouncing issue most
likely, in the software. My Blackout is on free play and I only hit the
start button quickly/briefly to avoid this problem. It's present in several
of the Wms games of that time.
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> My Blackout was experiencing out issues - like it would just quit
> scoring while the ball was in play. To fix that I ended up resoldering
> the Crystal (per a suggestion placed here on RGP). That fixed my
> problem.
I would honestly doubt that this was the actual cure for your problem.
Without that crystal in circuit, the whole CPU has no timing to run off of,
so it can't just selectively stop some functions, while letting others
continue to work. It would just go flat dead if the crystal were
disconnected or removed. More likely, something in the process of removing
and reinstalling your boards cured the problem (bad connections- very common
in these games/boards) rather than the actual connection to the crystal...
It's sort of like saying, "my car wouldn't start- I opened and closed the
hood and that fixed it". ;)
Just an observation...
sc...@farrar.com
Symptom - The game would play correctly for awhile and then not score
for awhile and then start scoring again (catching up on missed points).
The only 2 things I did to the board to make it work was swap the CPU
and re-solder the 2 pins on the Crystal. Prior to that, I bet I had
that MPU & Driver Board out of the game about 10 different times AND I
had tried that board in my Alien Poker and it had the same issues.
Maybe the issue was fixed by the swapping of the CPU but the post where
someone suggested I replace the Crystal made sense. I honestly don't
know because I did both at the same time and I don't have the Blackout
anymore (I sold it last month) where I could put the old CPU back into
the game.
Now, I'm not going to argue with you about this as I'm sure you've
forgotten more about these games than I know but the bottom line is
"something" I did (1 of those 2 items) resolved the issue of getting a
2-player game started when the ball was kicked to the Plunger Lane.
Just curious - Have you seen this symptom on other Sys6 games besides a
Blackout?
BTW: My game was set to FREE PLAY (Option 18 set to 0) when I was
experiencing the mysterious start of a 2 Player game.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
years and have seen the "2nd player added" problem when in free play. Daina
Pettit mentioned it may also happen when more than 1 credit is on the game
(coin play). I want to say I experienced the same thing in my Stellar Wars
years ago (Sys 6 board and green flipper roms) but it's been a long time and
I don't recall exactly. And all of my games have been in mothballs for a
while due to remodeling so can't look at any at the moment. But would make
sense that it would be something in the Sys 6 bios (IC17) rather than the
game rom code that is specific to each game, since the coin/player handling
software isn't a game-specific operation.
So can't personally confirm for sure on other games than Blackout.
Anyone else? Bueller?
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
<sc...@farrar.com> wrote in message
news:1114800716.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Daina Pettit
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball <st...@actionpinball.com> wrote:
>Interesting problem and fix. I have had a Blackout for probably close to 10
>years and have seen the "2nd player added" problem when in free play. Daina
>Pettit mentioned it may also happen when more than 1 credit is on the game
>(coin play). I want to say I experienced the same thing in my Stellar Wars
>years ago (Sys 6 board and green flipper roms) but it's been a long time and
>I don't recall exactly. And all of my games have been in mothballs for a
>while due to remodeling so can't look at any at the moment. But would make
>sense that it would be something in the Sys 6 bios (IC17) rather than the
>game rom code that is specific to each game, since the coin/player handling
>software isn't a game-specific operation.
>
>So can't personally confirm for sure on other games than Blackout.
>
>Anyone else? Bueller?
I've seen it on Stellar Wars, and Flash, and perhaps Gorgar, Laser Ball, and
Firepower.
sc...@farrar.com
capabilities but I'll ask it anyways...
If it was an issue with the Flipper ROMs or not debouncing the Credit
(or Start Button) then how come this doesn't occur on EVERY game? It
seems to only occurr on a few "haunted" games and then on those
"haunted" game it does not occur 100% of the time.
That makes me think its a bad chip or something...if it was coding or
faulty electronic logic then I would think it would happen to EVERY
machine made and EVERY 1-Player game started. That's why I think its a
component on the MPU - something that is going (or gone) "bad".
mik...@omuonline.net
Its done everything else but never start a game on its own.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> If it was an issue with the Flipper ROMs or not debouncing the Credit
> (or Start Button) then how come this doesn't occur on EVERY game? It
> seems to only occurr on a few "haunted" games and then on those
> "haunted" game it does not occur 100% of the time.
It's got to be one of two things:
1) It really is in every game that uses Green Label flipper roms. I've seen
it in Blackout. Daina mentioned he'd seen it in Stellar Wars (me too, as I
recall), Flash, and possibly Gorgar, Laser Ball, and Firepower. That leaves
Tri-Zone, Time Warp, Scorpion, Algar, and Alien Poker to check. I have a
Tri-Zone but it's mothballed for at least another month or so, so can't
check it right away.
or
2) It's in some code in the game ROM IC14 that is re-used (shared) between a
few of the Greel Label rom games.
We'd have to do some more checking to find out for sure.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> Someone mentioned Flash doing it, my Flash has never done this EVER.
> Its done everything else but never start a game on its own.
It's not actually starting a game on it's own- the symptoms we're seeing are
that a second player (2nd game) is tacked on when the credit/start button is
pressed once (for a 1 player game). Like you hit the start button twice,
when you really hit it once. And this seems to happen only when the game is
set on free play, or possibly when it's on coin play but with more than 1
credit on the machine.
And there were two versions of Flash- one shipped with the Level 4 MPU board
and yellow label ROM chips. The other version shipped with the Level 6 MPU
board with green label ROM chips. These are two different software
versions, which would explain why it could be seen in some Flash games and
not in others.
Same went for Stellar Wars- this one shipped from factory with some L4 and
some L6. And different versions of software accompanying.
Personally I like the yellow label rom chips in Flash- I have a Flash with
L4 board and yellow ROMs and it has the groovy background sound during play.
Can't get the same thing in the L6 version with green roms...
someotherguy
very regular basis. To the degree it's incredibly annoying. My Firepower
doesn't, nor does the one I sold a while back. Solar Fire doesn't. Barracora
doesn't. All set on free play.
Richard
someotherguy
but not very often. It was a real temperamental machine for a while though so
nothing it did surprised me. Can't recall my 2nd Gorgar ever doing it, but I
didn't keep it long.
Richard
David Gersic
> Oh! Now that you mention Gorgar again, I think my first Gorgar would do this,
> but not very often.
The Gorgar I worked on for a local guy last week didn't do anything like this
in the 10 or so games I put on it, and he didn't mention it doing anything
like this.
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:50:50 -0600, "Ray Johnson - Action Pinball"
><st...@actionpinball.com> wrote:
>
>><sc...@farrar.com> wrote:
>>> If it was an issue with the Flipper ROMs or not debouncing the Credit
>>> (or Start Button) then how come this doesn't occur on EVERY game? It
>>> seems to only occurr on a few "haunted" games and then on those
>>> "haunted" game it does not occur 100% of the time.
>>
>>It's got to be one of two things:
>>
>>1) It really is in every game that uses Green Label flipper roms. I've seen
>>it in Blackout. Daina mentioned he'd seen it in Stellar Wars (me too, as I
>>recall), Flash, and possibly Gorgar, Laser Ball, and Firepower. That leaves
>>Tri-Zone, Time Warp, Scorpion, Algar, and Alien Poker to check. I have a
>>Tri-Zone but it's mothballed for at least another month or so, so can't
>>check it right away.
I had a Scorpion for about a year, and put many hundreds of games on it. It
never spontaneously added any players to the game.
--
| David Gersic www.zaccaria-pinball.com dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| IMHO: I Maniacally Hurt Others...? |
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kansas city pinball.com
vary simple yet totally deceiving.
as i stated before i chacked the start switch several times and it had
a big gap.
well i decided to bend it way back and the problem is gone.
so the jolt from the out hole coil seems to have been causing the
switch to make contact even though the gap was large.
and btw my stellar wars did the same thing a few times as well.
thanks for all the input
john