Bombing a planet -- is it an art?
Ashish Jain
My question is that when the army count is like 5 or 6, is AS still
the best way to bomb a planet FLAT? Also, is there some art involved
in bombing a planet flat, or is it pretty much non-deterministic how
many armies will be left after the last bomb?
Netrek gurus please take over from here............
Thank You
--
Ashish Jain
ja...@ces.cwru.edu
Douglas V. Bellew
Ashish Jain <ja...@ces.cwru.edu> wrote:
>I do understand that AS is best for bombing when army count is high.
>My question is that when the army count is like 5 or 6, is AS still
>the best way to bomb a planet FLAT? Also, is there some art involved
>in bombing a planet flat, or is it pretty much non-deterministic how
>many armies will be left after the last bomb?
An AS is always the best to bomb in when a planet is at
5 armies, because it always bombs at least 2 off. I believe
PW did the stats on all the different ships and what was
(army wise) the most likely to give you the best result up to
8? armies.
>Ashish Jain
Doug
Leonard Dickens
>I do understand that AS is best for bombing when army count is high.
>My question is that when the army count is like 5 or 6, is AS still
>the best way to bomb a planet FLAT? Also, is there some art involved
>in bombing a planet flat, or is it pretty much non-deterministic how
>many armies will be left after the last bomb?
AS always bomb from 2-4 armies per tick. 1 is not a possibility; 0
is. Other ships all bomb the same, anywhere from 0-3 armies per tick.
In both cases, the most likely things to happen are the 0 case or the
lowest possible amount. (1, or 2 in AS.)
As a result, it is best to use AS to bomb planets at 5 and 7 armies.
Normal ships get better average results than AS for bombing planets at
6 and 8. I don't recall the results for larger numbers offhand, but
there is little difference as I recall. (Even at 8 armies, the
difference is not large.)
The reason here is that an AS is very likely to bomb a planet at 6 to
4, where it will then stop. A normal ship is much more likely to bomb
to 5 first, and then get its 0-3 often ending below 4. (If you can
normal-bomb to 5, and THEN stop bombing and get an AS to continue,
that is optimal. Normally you only have the leisure to bomb carefully
like this when you are recovering from LPS.)
Of course, even in the 5 or 7 army case it is far better to bomb in a
normal ship than to not bomb at all. And it is usually better to bomb
NOW rather than get an AS there and maybe bomb later.
-Leonard
Felix Sebastian Gallo
>I do understand that AS is best for bombing when army count is high.
>My question is that when the army count is like 5 or 6, is AS still
>the best way to bomb a planet FLAT? Also, is there some art involved
>in bombing a planet flat, or is it pretty much non-deterministic how
>many armies will be left after the last bomb?
There is an art.
Assault ships always bomb at least two armies, perhaps more.
All other ships have a high probability of bombing only one.
No planet can be bombed once it has 4 armies on it.
Hence:
For 6-9 armies, use another ship to get it to 5, because an AS
may well bomb it to 4 (especially if the planet's at 6, because
the AS's 'natural bomb' takes it to 4).
For 5 armies, use an AS.
For more than 10 armies, use a SC, because it's likely that the
planet is in the backfield, and all those ex-SC players who have
become incompetent with the Best Ship In The Game and who are
cruiserbombing, of all things, have no idea what they're doing
so don't listen to them.
--
Felix Gallo as...@io.com
"stabbing someone is a direct result of several factors." - Kevin Lord
Edward Fred Chen
it a.. by Ashish Ja...@bartok.CES.C
All ships except for the AS can bomb 1-3 armies each time. The AS
can bomb 2-4. For initial bombing you generally want to use an AS. Any
other ship will not be in very good fighting condition after bombing its
first planet. An AS also bombs faster. There are some strategies where
a person can take a scout, die bombing a frontline planet and come back
as a cruiser to defend homeworld. For the rest of the game you want a
scout to bomb deep in enemy space. Everywhere else use what is
available except for special cases.
What is a special case? One is if you want to bomb a planet to
under 4. This is generally used if you want to conserve armies which is
always good. If the target planet is at 5 then you want to use an AS.
Because the AS bombs an extra army compared to other ships you can get
the planet down to 3 and possibly even 1. This is very important if
you're down on planets and only have enough armies for one take. Other
ships will most likely bomb the planet to 4 and at best 2. So use an AS
to bomb if a planet is at 5 and you need to conserve armies. Now if a
planet is at 6 the AS is NOT the preferred ship. Because the AS bombs
2-4 the planet will end up being bombed to 4 and at best 2. When the
planet is at 6 you want to use any ship besides an AS such as a cruiser.
On the first bomb the cruiser will bomb the planet to 5, 4, or 3. If
it bombs the planet to 5 stop bombing. When the planet is at 5 we want
to use an AS. If the cruiser bombs the planet to 4 or 3 you made a good
gamble and lost.
I can't think of any other situations where an AS would be preferred
other than if the enemy is making a LPS and you need a ship which can
take heavy damage. Some situations others might want to comment on are
if it's good to bomb an agri you're not going to take below 4 and using
an AS to occasionally bomb deep enemy planets. You can work out most
situations if you remember than AS' bomb 2-4 armies and other ships bomb
1-3. Hope this helps.
-Edward
Alan Wexelblat
bel...@be.seas.upenn.edu (Douglas V. Bellew) errs in his bombing judgement,
showing why he spends his time rewling the front and taking names while I
sneak around behind enemy lines:
> An AS is always the best to bomb in when a planet is at 5 armies, because
> it always bombs at least 2 off.
This is only true if you plan to take the planet soon, especially so for
agris. With enemy agris you won't take for a while, you want to bomb them
just to 4. If you bomb an agri to 3 or less, it's guaranteed to pop at
least 2 armies next time. That can mean the enemy gets an army to pick up
and use when you least want it to happen, esp. in INL play.
You also have to consider that bombing doesn't happen in isolation. Using
an SC to bomb means you may be able to get to the target from homeworld
faster; using a CA to bomb means you may be able to dogfight better and
certainly can take more damage and still be able to uncloak/mutual with the
aggressor. Note that few INL teams use more than 0-2 ASes even in the
opening wave when bombing is on everyones' minds.
As with the (interminable) "CA is better than DD" nonsense, it ignores the
fact that there are up to 14 other players around, many of whom may be doing
things that affect what you're up to. Jain was correct that bombing is an
art and one of the first steps to mastering that art is spending a lot of
time watching the galactic to be aware of what is going on in the game as a
whole.
Now if someone could just teach me to space control as well as Doug...
--Thera, Master Bomber for the Zoo
Douglas V. Bellew
Alan Wexelblat <w...@media.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <32m1ek$j...@netnews.upenn.edu>, my esteemed Zoo colleague
>bel...@be.seas.upenn.edu (Douglas V. Bellew) errs in his bombing judgement,
>If you bomb an agri to 3 or less, it's guaranteed to pop at
>least 2 armies next time. That can mean the enemy gets an army to pick up
>and use when you least want it to happen, esp. in INL play.
Hmm. THis I didn't know. I knew that an enemy agri < 4
popped _everytime_ it gets checked... I didn't know it had
to pop at least 2.
>You also have to consider that bombing doesn't happen in isolation.
Once again my collegue is correct. Everything is situational.
Making broad sweeping statements without thinking is always
bad. ;)
>Jain was correct that bombing is an
>art and one of the first steps to mastering that art is spending a lot of
>time watching the galactic to be aware of what is going on in the game as a
>whole.
I always thought that everyone should be "required" to spend
a goodly amount of time SC bombing. It gives you an instinct as to
what is going to happen that a suprising number of people lack,
as well as forcing the person to get used to looking at the
galactic all the time.
>Now if someone could just teach me to space control as well as Doug...
I can't actually believe you said that with a straight face....
>--Thera, Master Bomber for the Zoo
Doug
Jonathan Kelley
>Ashish Jain (ja...@bartok.CES.CWRU.Edu) wrote:
>: I do understand that AS is best for bombing when army count is high.
>: My question is that when the army count is like 5 or 6, is AS still
>: the best way to bomb a planet FLAT? Also, is there some art involved
>For lots of info on the games mechanics, you should read "game-facts.Z"
>from "gs69.sp.cs.cmu.edu".
>When a player is bombing, the server only rolls the bombing dice for
>that player every 5 seconds. When the dice are rolled, 50% of the
>time the player did not remove any armies. Otherwise, the player
>will randomly remove 2 to 4 armies for an AS and 1 to 3 armies for any
>other ship but an SB.
No, no, no, it's every 5 *ticks*, i.e., 0.5 seconds. If it
were every 5 seconds, it would take approximately, oh, 13 such checks
for an AS to bomb a planet from 30, i.e. 75 seconds. :)
On what to bomb with, from Red Shirt's entry in game-facts:
Planet starts with: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
A.S. bombs it to: 2.4 3.4 2.8 3.3 2.9 3.25 2.95 3.2
Also, I really do suggest everyone read the archives, if you
haven't already. You would be surprised at some of the things
experienced players don't know that is mentioned in the archives. If
you think you're too cool to read them, go ahead anyway. There's a
couple of things mentioned that correct common misconceptions, or that
you probably can't know without looking at the source or reading it in
the archives. And lest you think you know everything, I even caught a
to-be-unnamed Hero.
>-- Zork
--
Jonathan Kelley
jke...@cco.caltech.edu
Ashish Jain
>Planet starts with: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
>A.S. bombs it to: 2.4 3.4 2.8 3.3 2.9 3.25 2.95 3.2
>
>Jonathan Kelley
>jke...@cco.caltech.edu
>
So it will be a fair thing to say that as a rule of thumb, if you plan
to take a planet immediately, use AS if there are odd number of armies
on the planet.
--
Ashish Jain
ja...@ces.cwru.edu
Erik Lauer
>If you bomb an agri to 3 or less, it's guaranteed to pop at
>least 2 armies next time.
This is false. It is guaranteed to pop at least 1 army + has
the normal chance of popping armies, + has an additional
chance of popping an army (so it is more likely to give
available armies than if the planet were at 4).
cgj...@lut.ac.uk (James Soutter) writes:
>When a player is bombing, the server only rolls the bombing dice for
>that player every 5 seconds. When the dice are rolled, 50% of the
This is false, it checks every 5 ticks (tick = .1 seconds).
>time the player did not remove any armies. Otherwise, the player
>will randomly remove 2 to 4 armies for an AS and 1 to 3 armies for any
>other ship but an SB.
I believe if an AS bombs > 0 armies, it is 60% chance 2, 20% chance 3,
20% chance 4. Likewise for any other ship (including SB) it is 60% 1.
That is enough to generate a bombing table with the following assumptions:
Only 1 ship bombing at a time, no ship beaming, the planet does not
pop or plague. Every times armies are bombed, the bomber stops and
the optimal ship is used as bombing is continued.
Here is what the planet will end up at depending on whether you use
an AS or non-AS to start:
Initial armies Expected (AS) Expected (non-AS)
1 1 1
2 2 2
3 3 3
4 4 4
5 2.4 3.4
6 3.4 2.84
7 2.84 2.984
8 2.984 2.752
9 2.752 2.7872
10 2.7872 2.7696
11 2.7696 2.76256
Generally it is not worth all this effort, but the optimal plan for
4< armies <= 10:
when armies are odd use AS when armies even use non AS.
while I am at it, I'll make a table for just
using AS or just using non-AS.
Initial armies Expected (AS) Expected (non-AS)
1 1 1
2 2 2
3 3 3
4 4 4
5 2.4 3.4
6 3.4 3.44
7 3.32 3.544
8 3.152 3.4944
9 3.2352 3.49344
10 3.23552 3.503744
11 3.218752 3.4998144
It looks to me like using AS's to bomb planets at
17 or so (what INL games start at) bombs about .28
armies better per planet bombed using AS (so if one
team used AS's to flatten 7 planets, and the other
team used CA's to flatten 7 planets the AS team would
expect to come out 2 armies ahead).
Erik
Alan Wexelblat
>to take a planet immediately, use AS if there are odd number of armies
>on the planet.
Yes, that's certainly true. Other good uses for AS bombing:
1) when you're down to less-than-core, use AS to bomb non-agris near
homeworld/LPS. Some people don't like to bomb until just before the planet
take. My problem with that is that you risk an enemy picking up the army so
you can't bomb. Plus, if it's a non-agri and you can get it down to <4 the
chances are good it'll still be down when you want to take it and your take
will be less obvious to incoming oggers.
2) the enemy front line, always. Again, this applies to non-agris, but you
want to reduce the enemy front so taking is easier. SC dropping can do
this, or AS bombing can. Even if you don't take the planet soon, it will
reduce the chances that enemies can quickly pick up armies from the front.
If they have to go back to pick up, you have more chance to see them and set
up defenses.
3) when there is an AS carrier other than you, especially if you also have a
kill (make sure to MSG and let your team know you do not carry). An AS with
kills headed for a planet has GOT to be treated like a carrier. If the
enemy has two such ships to worry about, the chances that the real carrier
will get through are much higher. Plus with an AS if you happen to be close
to the planet taker, you can pull up an inch or so away and DET like a
muthafukah. It's very hard to kill an undamaged detting AS in less time
than it takes to drop armies.
MAKE SURE YOU ARE FAR ENOUGH AWAY FROM THE PLANET! Nothing sucks like being
dooshed by your own escort exploding, and exploding ASes do a fair amount of
damage.
Tom Holub
Douglas V. Bellew <bel...@be.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
)In article <1994Aug15.1...@news.media.mit.edu>,
)Alan Wexelblat <w...@media.mit.edu> wrote:
)>In article <32m1ek$j...@netnews.upenn.edu>, my esteemed Zoo colleague
)>bel...@be.seas.upenn.edu (Douglas V. Bellew) errs in his bombing judgement,
) Yeah well...
)
)>If you bomb an agri to 3 or less, it's guaranteed to pop at
)>least 2 armies next time. That can mean the enemy gets an army to pick up
)>and use when you least want it to happen, esp. in INL play.
)
) Hmm. THis I didn't know. I knew that an enemy agri < 4
)popped _everytime_ it gets checked... I didn't know it had
)to pop at least 2.
It doesn't pop at least 2. Sorry wex.
-Tom
Alan Wexelblat
> -Tom
Now waitaminit. I thought I remembered reading that (a) it was guaranteed
to pop next check if below 4, *and* (b) it popped an extra army when it did
pop. I put 1+1 together and got 2 -- what is wrong with the reasoning?
--Thera
James Ivey
Once again, we have a lot of people meandering through numerous
'facts'. It's really not hard to grab some code and take a look.
The following fragments are from the server on ftp.ecst.csuchico.edu
under /pub/netrek/src/Server2.5pl4.tar.gz. The file is daemonII.c,
in the Server/ntserv directory. The function to look at (thanks to
a 'grep -i agri *') is PopPlanet :
> PopPlanet( plnum)
> int plnum;
> {
> register struct planet *l;
> int num;
> int orig_armies;
> int owner;
I left out the miscellaneous debugging, sanity checks, and plague checks,
for brevity's sake. If you want to address them, post yourself.
> orig_armies = l->pl_armies;
Just saves the number of armies before the pop-check.
> if (l->pl_armies < 4) {
> if ((random() % 20) == 0) { /* planets< 4 grow faster */
> l->pl_armies++;
> }
> if (l->pl_flags & PLAGRI) { /* Always grow 1 if Agricultural. */
> if (++l->pl_armies > 4) l->pl_flags |= PLREDRAW;
> /* XXX REDRAW in client */
> }
> }
If the planet has less than 4 armies,
Add 1 army 5% of the time.
If the planet is an AGRI, add 1 army EVERY time.
> if ((random() % 10) == 0) { /* Chance for extra armies. */
> if (l->pl_armies < 5) l->pl_flags |= PLREDRAW;
> /* XXX REDRAW in client */
> num = (random() % 3) + 1;
> l->pl_armies += num;
> }
10% of the time, add between 1 and 3 armies to the planet. I don't
understand what the extra REDRAW is there for.
> /* Argicultural worlds have extra chance for army growth. */
> if (l->pl_flags & PLAGRI) {
> if ((random() % 5) == 0) {
> if (++l->pl_armies > 4) l->pl_flags |= PLREDRAW;
> /* XXX REDRAW in client */
> }
> }
If the world is AGRI,
20% of the time, add yet another fucking army.
> num = l->pl_armies - orig_armies;
> }
Return the total number of armies popped.
I'm very poor at statistics. Could someone create a chart from this,
to add to the archives?
A quick summary of the three code fragments :
1) 95% | 5%
Normal planet < 4 : 0 | 1
Agri planet < 4 : 1 | 2
2) 90% | 10%
Normal planet : 0 | 1-3
Agri planet : 0 | 1-3
3) 80% | 20%
Normal planet : 0 | 0
Agri planet : 0 | 1
Normal planet < 4 : 0-4
Normal planet >= 4 : 0-3
Agri planet < 4 : 1-6
Agri planet >= 4 : 0-4
Some trivia this produces :
A normal planet need never pop, regardless of how many armies it has.
An agri planet, on the otherhand, is guaranteed to eventually be
at least 4. Above that, it need never pop.
A normal planet can pop from 3 to 7. An agri can pop all the way to 9.
Final caveats : It ain't my code. Don't send me complaints about it.
I also have no idea what the INL code does differently than this. Someone
else can check that. Finally, if my analysis is wrong, correct it. Don't
continue posting fact-less tripe.
Jim
Christopher Cawlfield
are correct, as are the expectation values. Except some rounding goofs that no one but
but a complete dork would worry about, like 31/150 being closer to .2067 than .2066.
(please flame me, I am now a dork)
-Topher
James Ivey
Here is a quick stab at the percentages. Again, I got a 'D' in
STAT 511, so don't hold me to these :)
Normal planet, < 4 armies
0 = 85.5%
1 = 7.635%
2 = 3.3%
3 = 3.3%
4 = 0.165%
Normal planet, >= 4 armies
0 = 90%
1 = 3.3%
2 = 3.3%
3 = 3.3%
Agri planet, < 4 armies
0 = 0%
1 = 68.4%
2 = 23.2%
3 = 4.167%
4 = 3.3%
5 = 0.792%
6 = 0.033%
Agri planet, >= 4 armies
0 = 72%
1 = 20.64%
2 = 3.3%
3 = 3.3%
4 = 0.6%
Jim