Most significant RPGs
Steffan O'Sullivan
T&T - first attempt at a simple system
B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
alter the level system into something more customizable for
each character
TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
- that is, first elegant RPG
--
-Steffan O'Sullivan | "Very few things happen at the right time, and
s...@vnet.net | the rest do not happen at all: the conscien-
Chapel Hill, NC | tious historian will correct these defects."
www.io.com/~sos | -Herodotus (as quoted by Mark Twain)
Lee Gold
> D&D - first published RPG
That should be NON-BOARD RPG. Dynasty was a board game
with role playing which came out before D&D but did not, as far
as I know, influence any later games.
> T&T - first attempt at a simple system
> B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
> alter the level system into something more customizable for
> each character
> TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
> - that is, first elegant RPG
RQ - first skills-based system
?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
sylvr...@hotmail.com
Cyberpunk/Cyberpunk 2020--First dark future RPG.
Heavy Gear--First RPG to successfully unite wargaming and roleplaying with
one system (Silhouette).
Toon--First humorous RPG (or should this go to Paranoia?)
Mekton--First anime RPG
Top Secret--First espionage RPG
TORG--First genre-bending RPG
Star Wars--First widely-successful licensed RPG
PAX,
Sylvre Phire
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Jonas Whitespore
<6u47i5$1kv$1...@katie.vnet.net>, s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan)
wrote:
>D&D - first published RPG
>T&T - first attempt at a simple system
>B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
> alter the level system into something more customizable for
> each character
>TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
> - that is, first elegant RPG
OK, I have no idea which one it is, but I want to nominate the first
RPG whose title was not an acronym.
Jonas "JW" Whitespore
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As our bodies are armoured with adamantium, our souls are protected
with our loyalty. As our bolters are charged with death for the
Emperor's enemies, our thoughts are charged with his wisdom. As our
ranks advance, so does our devotion, for are we not Marines? Are we
not the chosen of the Emperor, his loyal servants unto death?
-Chaplain Fergus Nils
An address to the defenders of Portrein.
DocCross
>Toon--First humorous RPG (or should this go to Paranoia?)
>
a tie.
And let's qualify that to "First INTENTIONALLY humorous RPG", since alot of
games and supplements before then were UNINTENTIONALLY funny:)
Doc Cross
Official Roleplaying Gamer of the New Millenium
Insert witty or profound saying here
Nightshade
>TORG--First genre-bending RPG
I think I'd have to assign that to Shadowrun, personally.
Nightshade
>At precisely 20 Sep 1998 20:44:53 -0400, in
><6u47i5$1kv$1...@katie.vnet.net>, s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan)
>wrote:
>
>>D&D - first published RPG
>>T&T - first attempt at a simple system
>>B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
>> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
>> alter the level system into something more customizable for
>> each character
>>TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
>> - that is, first elegant RPG
>
>OK, I have no idea which one it is, but I want to nominate the first
>RPG whose title was not an acronym.
Probably Traveller, if I had to guess.
abi...@csksoftware.com
s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
> B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
> alter the level system into something more customizable for
> each character
I think Monsters! Monsters! was the first non-humaniod PC game & probably the
first play the monsters game?! But B&B certainly wins hands down on the other
things you mention.
--
Sasha Bilton
icq 17177341 / www.myraid.demon.co.uk
I met a girl upon a stair who wasn't there.
Steffan O'Sullivan
> s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>
>> B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
>> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
>> alter the level system into something more customizable for
>> each character
>
>I think Monsters! Monsters! was the first non-humaniod PC game & probably the
>first play the monsters game?! But B&B certainly wins hands down on the other
>things you mention.
Hmmm - M!M! and B&B came out the same year - I don't know which was
first, I admit, so you may be right.
As for another poster who wanted to know the first RPG that wasn't an
acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
As for yet another poster's reference to an RPG published before D&D, I
confess I'm not a believer, though it's been referred to before. I
want to see such a beast.
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
Wasn't Ghostbusters (among others) earlier?
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> edc...@newsguy.com (Jonas Whitespore) wrote:
>
> >At precisely 20 Sep 1998 20:44:53 -0400, in
> >wrote:
> >
> >>D&D - first published RPG
> >>T&T - first attempt at a simple system
> >> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
> >> alter the level system into something more customizable for
> >> each character
> >> - that is, first elegant RPG
> >
> >OK, I have no idea which one it is, but I want to nominate the first
> >RPG whose title was not an acronym.
>
> Probably Traveller, if I had to guess.
Heh, I'd say Dungeons and Dragons. Did they use the term D+D in
the 1st ed. or did that become common shorthand later?
Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> As for another poster who wanted to know the first RPG that wasn't an
> acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
Nah, if it's D+D then it's also BH.
Lee Gold
> As for yet another poster's reference to an RPG published before D&D, I
> confess I'm not a believer, though it's been referred to before. I
> want to see such a beast.
DYNASTY had a cloth map and plastic figures that held squares on it.
It also had eight roles: The Emperor, the Official, the Scholar, the
Gentry Landholder, the Silk Peasant, the Rice Peasant, the Wheat
Peasant -- and the Warlord. There were eight booklets that all
looked the same on the outside that were shuffled and dealt out at
random. Each summarized the character's role (the Scholar's read:
"You are a dreamer; you dream of becoming Emperor and governing
the land according to the rules laid down by the Sages"; the Warlord's
read "You will lie, you will cheat and -- most of all -- you will steal").
Each summary ended -- "As long as you play this character, your
actions should be in line with this description."
If three characters failed to acknowledge the rule of the Emperor
(and the Warlord was always disaffected), the land was in Chaos.
No one had the right to levy taxes and use the money to equip armies
to fight off the Warlord or build the public monuments. The game
ended when all the monuments (the Great Wall, various irrigation
projects, various pagodas) had been build, and the winners were the
Emperor -- and all the characters allied with him.
Meanwhile, the soldiers of the Warlord and the various opposed
armies marched back and forth across the board.
Taxes were collected by the Official, who had the right to skim as much
as he wanted off the top before handing the money to the Emperor.
Peasants were forbidden to communicate directly with the Emperor or
Official, but had to go through the Gentry Landholder.
In addition, players bid for or used their armies to steal various tokens
which would allow them to force a role change with another player.
I've still got a set (plus house rules). Steffan, send me a SASE and
a couple of bucks for photocopying and I'll send you copies of the
booklets (but the cloth map would be rather difficult to photocopy)..
--Lee Gold
Shawn McMahon
>
> B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
Now how did I know you were going to pick that one? :-)
DocCross
>> Toon--First humorous RPG (or should this go to Paranoia?)
>
>Wasn't Ghostbusters (among others) earlier?
Nope. Toon/Paranoia = 1984. Ghostbusters = 1986.
Voivode
Nightshade <Night...@nightdark.com> wrote in article
<3609f9e2.7185178@news>...
> edc...@newsguy.com (Jonas Whitespore) wrote:
>
> >At precisely 20 Sep 1998 20:44:53 -0400, in
> ><6u47i5$1kv$1...@katie.vnet.net>, s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan)
> >wrote:
> >
> >OK, I have no idea which one it is, but I want to nominate the first
> >RPG whose title was not an acronym.
>
> Probably Traveller, if I had to guess.
Traveller should be on the significant list not just because it was the
first SF game, and not just because it didn't have a catchy acronym, but
because (IIRC) it was the first game to get rid of Levels, Hit Points, and
had SKILLS!
What do you mean I can't pilot a 1000 tons of highly sophisticated
equipment accurately from here to Mars? Why do I need Pilot skills, I mean
we all know where Mars is, it's not like I could miss it!
Doug.
--
Greetings Starfighter. You have been chosen by
the Star League to defend the frontier against
Zhur and the Kodan Armada!
Steffan O'Sullivan
>> acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
>
>Nah, if it's D+D then it's also BH.
:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
WinningerR
>>>Star Wars--First widely-successful licensed RPG<<<
FASA's STAR TREK was released years before SW and it was certainly
widely-successful.
Ramhog
<lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
And my nomination...
First Superhero RPG: SUPERHERO 2044 (Gamescience?)
And while I'm at it-
First _good_ Superhero RPG: Villains & Vigilantes, 2nd ed.
First Superhero RPG to actually *play* like a COMIC BOOK (which, I
thought, was the point of the game): DC Heroes
--
-Later, R.
David Crowe
What was the first RPG to use only the d6? Traveller?
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
Your personality is ruled by the lumps on your head.
Maybe some new bumps would improve your personality, eh?
-"Corrective Phrenologists" INWO SubGenius card
Michael T. Richter
>What was the first RPG to use only the d6? Traveller?
Very probably, yes.
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
PGP Key: http://www.igs.net/~mtr/pgp-key.html
PGP Fingerprint: 40D1 33E0 F70B 6BB5 8353 4669 B4CC DD09 04ED 4FE8
Niilo Paasivirta
>> T&T - first attempt at a simple system
>> alter the level system into something more customizable for
>> each character
>> TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
>> - that is, first elegant RPG
MERP - first one set in Middle-earth?
>RQ - first skills-based system
As far as I know, Traveller was the first level-less skill based system,
but I may be wrong. Was RQ's first printing before Traveller (1977)?
>?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
Champions?
--
<a href="http://www.jyu.fi/%7Enp/index.html"> Niilo Paasivirta </a>
Michael Schwartz
>
>FASA's STAR TREK was released years before SW and it was
>certainly widely-successful.
CALL OF CTHULHU predates both, having first been published in 1980, and
can be considered *extremely* successful.
--
Michael Schwartz msch...@mindspring.com Ann Arbor, MI USA
====================================================================
"I've always said you can get more with a kind word and a two-by-four
than with a kind word alone." -- Marcus Cole, Babylon 5
WinningerR
>>>>What was the first RPG to use only the d6? Traveller?<<<
Depends upon whether or not you believe MELEE/WIZARD was an RPG. Personally, I
don't believe so, and agree w/Traveller.
Brett Slocum
>
>> T&T - first attempt at a simple system
Did T&T precede Monsters! Monsters!, a simple RPG, that was also the first game
in which players played the bad guys, later popularized by WW.
>> B&B - ...first primitive attempt to
>> alter the level system into something more customizable for
>> each character
Did B&B precede Traveller?
>> TFT - first to combine simplicity with a high degree of verisimilitude
>> - that is, first elegant RPG
Yes!
The Illuminated Masters let Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> write:
>RQ - first skills-based system
RQ preceded Traveller?
>?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
I think you are thinking of TFT (and Melee/Wizard).
---
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* New Illuminated Sitekeeper for Steve Jackson Games - send neat sites
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Brett Slocum
write:
>Nightshade wrote:
>>
>> edc...@newsguy.com (Jonas Whitespore) wrote:
>> >OK, I have no idea which one it is, but I want to nominate the first
>> >RPG whose title was not an acronym.
>>
>> Probably Traveller, if I had to guess.
>
>Heh, I'd say Dungeons and Dragons. Did they use the term D+D in
>the 1st ed. or did that become common shorthand later?
Oh, yes. It was called D&D from just about the first moment it was published.
>Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
WinningerR
>>>CALL OF CTHULHU predates both, having first been published in 1980, and
can be considered *extremely* successful.<<<
Though CoC is certainly a survivor, it never saw sales on the order of either
ST or SW.
Steffan O'Sullivan
>Did T&T precede Monsters! Monsters!,
Yes - T&T was the second RPG (as we understand the term), after D&D.
>Did B&B precede Traveller?
Yes.
>RQ preceded Traveller?
No, Trav preceded RQ.
Steffan O'Sullivan
I'd say T&T, myself.
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> >>>>What was the first RPG to use only the d6? Traveller?<<<
>
> Depends upon whether or not you believe MELEE/WIZARD was an RPG. Personally, I
> don't believe so, and agree w/Traveller.
They predate Traveller? Were there editions before the Metagaming pocket
boxes?
Because I'm 90% sure I had the Traveller box before those came out.
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> >Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
>
> As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
> initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
> of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
An acronym is a word formed by initials. D+D is merely an abreviation.
While GURPS wasn't a word in and of itself before the game it seems to
have become the name in and of itself early in the design stage.
Or: D+D is still pronounced "D and D". Discrete letters, unlike
GURPS which is pronouced as one word rather than "G U R P S".
Thomas N. Bagwell
<36070b52...@news.ncf.carleton.ca>...
>Ah, but do you remembre what "GURPS" stood for in those days, or at
>least, how was it represented in Space Gamer? ;-)
Heh. I was there when GURPS became the official name of the game. I
went to a gaming center called Hexworld in Austin, TX. GURPS was the
working title of a game under playtest, and a couple of the groups met
there. As it continued, they put up a suggestion sheet for a "real"
name for the system. People talked for a bit, shrugged, and most people
voted for "GURPS". I don't think anyone believed it would stick. I'm
sure they used other sources than Hexworld, but I was interested when it
actually went bigtime. (I've always wished I could have liked it
because of this...:) )
Tom B.
Chris Camfield
<rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>Brett Slocum wrote:
>>
>> >Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
>>
>> As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
>> initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
>> of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
>
>An acronym is a word formed by initials. D+D is merely an abreviation.
>While GURPS wasn't a word in and of itself before the game it seems to
>have become the name in and of itself early in the design stage.
Ah, but do you remembre what "GURPS" stood for in those days, or at
least, how was it represented in Space Gamer? ;-)
CC
Jeff Johnson
>Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com> wrote:
>>Did T&T precede Monsters! Monsters!,
>
>Yes - T&T was the second RPG (as we understand the term), after D&D.
>
Monsters! Monsters! was a sequel to Tunnels & Trolls and used the same
system, so it's not surprising it came out later than the game it was
a sequel to...
Jeff Johnson
jsjo...@islandnet.com
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2
Terry Austin
>Heh, I'd say Dungeons and Dragons. Did they use the term D+D in
>the 1st ed. or did that become common shorthand later?
>
Before 1st edition, if you mean 1st edition AD&D. The term D&D goes back to
1973, if not before.
Terry Austin
>Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>>>
>>> As for another poster who wanted to know the first RPG that wasn't an
>>> acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
>>
>>Nah, if it's D+D then it's also BH.
>
>:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
>occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
>were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
acronym \a-kre-nim\ n : a word (as radar) formed from the initial letter or
letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
Dave Nalle
> Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>
> > D&D - first published RPG
>
> That should be NON-BOARD RPG. Dynasty was a board game
> with role playing which came out before D&D but did not, as far
> as I know, influence any later games.
Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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WinningerR
>>>They predate Traveller? Were there editions before the Metagaming pocket
boxes?<<<
There were pocket baggies before there were pocket boxes.
Jonas Whitespore
<36261bff...@news.artnet.net>, tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry
Austin) wrote:
>s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>
>>Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>>>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As for another poster who wanted to know the first RPG that wasn't an
>>>> acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
>>>
>>>Nah, if it's D+D then it's also BH.
>>
>>:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
>>occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
>>were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
>
>acronym \a-kre-nim\ n : a word (as radar) formed from the initial letter or
>letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
>
>(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
>Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
>
>"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
Thank you very much Terry for lousing up a perfectly fun jibe at early
roleplaying systems by bringing up what the dictionary says I meant.
Jonas Whitespore
-
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As our bodies are armoured with adamantium, our souls are protected
with our loyalty. As our bolters are charged with death for the
Emperor's enemies, our thoughts are charged with his wisdom. As our
ranks advance, so does our devotion, for are we not Marines? Are we
not the chosen of the Emperor, his loyal servants unto death?
-Chaplain Fergus Nils
An address to the defenders of Portrein.
abi...@csksoftware.com
> >> alter the level system into something more customizable for
> >> each character
> >
> >first play the monsters game?! But B&B certainly wins hands down on the other
> >things you mention.
>
> Hmmm - M!M! and B&B came out the same year - I don't know which was
> first, I admit, so you may be right.
Did Steve Jackson have anything to do with B & B BTW? I don't have my copy of
M! M! at hand but I think his name is in the credits.
--
Sasha Bilton
icq 17177341 / www.myraid.demon.co.uk
I met a girl upon a stair who wasn't there.
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Bruce Probst
>Star Wars--First widely-successful licensed RPG
Bzzt. The James Bond RPG predated Star Wars by a few years. It itself
wasn't the first licensed RPG (I'm sure that TSR had some Conan etc. stuff
earlier) but I believe the James Bond stuff would have counted as the first
"widely successful" licensed RPG.
Come to think of it, FASA's Star Trek RPG predated Star Wars, and it was
pretty successful too.
And has someone else has already noted, Call of Cthulhu predates all of
these by several years.
Bruce Probst bpr...@ibm.net
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759
MST3K-OZ Newsletter http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/pimlico/131/oz.html
ASL FAQ http://www.tne.net.au/njh/ASL/FAQ/FAQ.html
Terry Austin
>At precisely Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:40:05 GMT, in
><36261bff...@news.artnet.net>, tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry
>Austin) wrote:
>
>>s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>>
>>>Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>>>>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As for another poster who wanted to know the first RPG that wasn't an
>>>>> acronym, that would be Boot Hill.
>>>>
>>>>Nah, if it's D+D then it's also BH.
>>>
>>>:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
>>>occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
>>>were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
>>
>>acronym \a-kre-nim\ n : a word (as radar) formed from the initial letter or
>>letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
>>
>>(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
>>Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
>>
>>"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
>
>Thank you very much Terry for lousing up a perfectly fun jibe at early
>roleplaying systems by bringing up what the dictionary says I meant.
>
Well, if we get to redefine words until they're funny, then lbh'er cerggl zhpa
na vqvbg.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>
> >>>Star Wars--First widely-successful licensed RPG<<<
>
> widely-successful.
Wasn't MERP before this? I believe the first edition is from 1984,
when was Star Trek released?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Klaus Æ. Mogensen <klau...@get2net.dk> http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius
The Optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The Pessimist fears that this is so. - James Branch Cabell
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
different bonus stats for different tasks? Storyteller uses this,
but was it the first?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Klaus Ę. Mogensen <klau...@get2net.dk> http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius
Steffan O'Sullivan
>s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>
>>:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
>>occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
>>were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
>
>acronym \a-kre-nim\ n : a word (as radar) formed from the initial letter or
>letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
>
>(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
>Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
>
>"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
I'm very aware of the dictionary definition of acronym, thanks, and I
realize the dictionary would want me to use "initialism." But the
dictionary is behind the times - the computer age has shifted the
definition of the word acronym to include initialisms. In fact, it's
now common to see "TLA" (three-letter acronym) to refer to a lot of
computer terms. And TLA is a TLA in modern parlance ...
You *are* aware that the people form the language, not the other way
around, right? Otherwise, things get unbearable. That is, if I say
you're a nice guy, does that mean the original meaning or the meaning
the people have evolved? In this case, probably the former, but most
people use it in the latter sense.
That's glory for you.
Frank G. Pitt
docc...@aol.com (DocCross) wrote:
>
>>Toon--First humorous RPG (or should this go to Paranoia?)
>
>And let's qualify that to "First INTENTIONALLY humorous RPG", since alot of
>games and supplements before then were UNINTENTIONALLY funny:)
Hey, what about Arduin ?
That certainly had intentionally humurous aspects.
I mean, can anyone take an octarilla seriously ?
--
Frankie
Lee Gold
> In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
> <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
>
> That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
> which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
(I don't remember when Melee came out).
--Lee Gold
Lee Gold
>
>
>
> >RQ preceded Traveller?
>
> No, Trav preceded RQ.
I wouldn't count Traveller as a typical RPG. Its military
background generator not only killed off an appreciable
%age of characters before they were first run but also
seemed geared to solo runs rather than groups (though
I know some people found ways around this). RQ
was much more a typical RPG.
I can't think of any later skill-based RPGs that seemed
to be influenced by Traveller rather than RQ.
--Lee Gold
Lee Gold
> In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
> <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > > D&D - first published RPG
> >
> > That should be NON-BOARD RPG. Dynasty was a board game
> > with role playing which came out before D&D but did not, as far
> > as I know, influence any later games.
>
> Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
> predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
> copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
> recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
> through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
You may be right. Peggy Gemignani wrote a long history of
Midgard in A&E waybackwhen.
--Lee Gold
Michael T. Richter
>> >RQ preceded Traveller?
>> No, Trav preceded RQ.
Any skill-based RPG which doesn't directly tie specific chances to skill
levels is Traveller-influenced rather than RQ-influenced.
Fading Suns, for example, is (circuitously) RQ-influenced.
Skill+Stat+/-Modifiers form the target number you roll directly against.
Heavy Gear, on the other hand, is (circuitously) Traveller-influenced: Skill
and Stat are combined to generate a number which is compared against a
difficulty number. CORPS is another Traveller-influenced mechanism: skill
is compared against a difficulty number and a chance is calculated from
this.
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
PGP Key: http://www.igs.net/~mtr/pgp-key.html
PGP Fingerprint: 40D1 33E0 F70B 6BB5 8353 4669 B4CC DD09 04ED 4FE8
Jonas Whitespore
<361162b7...@news.artnet.net>, tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry
Austin) wrote:
>edc...@newsguy.com (Jonas Whitespore) wrote:
>
>>At precisely Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:40:05 GMT, in
>><36261bff...@news.artnet.net>, tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry
>>Austin) wrote:
>>>acronym \a-kre-nim\ n : a word (as radar) formed from the initial letter or
>>>letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
>>>
>>>(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
>>>Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
>>>
>>>"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
>>
>>Thank you very much Terry for lousing up a perfectly fun jibe at early
>>roleplaying systems by bringing up what the dictionary says I meant.
>>
>Well, if we get to redefine words until they're funny, then lbh'er cerggl zhpa
>na vqvbg.
First off, that's not redefining words, it's typing up gibberish and
expecting people to think you're clever.
Second, everyone else knew right off what was meant and continued to
use the word in the intended, albeit wrong, use. I, and most likely
everyone else here I'm sure, know what is and is not an acronym.
Quite likely, you're the only one who cares.
Jonas "EOF" Whitespore
DocCross
>Hey, what about Arduin ?
>
>That certainly had intentionally humurous aspects.
>I mean, can anyone take an octarilla seriously ?
LOL I'm sure if they were drugged up enough they might:)
Doc Cross
Official Roleplaying Gamer of the New Millenium
Insert witty or profound saying here
WinningerR
>>>Wasn't MERP before this? I believe the first edition is from 1984,
when was Star Trek released?<<<
The first Middle Earth supplements were released a tad prior to Trek, I believe
-- but they were "generic" in nature (not keyed to any game system). I'm not
sure when MERP itself was published.
Lilith Costas
> went to a gaming center called Hexworld in Austin, TX. GURPS was the
> working title of a game under playtest,
Stood for Generic Universal Roleplaying System, I believe.
Buzz
> Wasn't MERP before this? I believe the first edition is from 1984,
> when was Star Trek released?
Long before that. I remember playing it in junior high, which was '81 to '83.
'82 sounds about right.
--
buzz(at)funkadelic(dot)com
Steffan O'Sullivan
[Tom B. wrote:]
>> Heh. I was there when GURPS became the official name of the game. I
>> went to a gaming center called Hexworld in Austin, TX. GURPS was the
>> working title of a game under playtest,
>
>Stood for Generic Universal Roleplaying System, I believe.
There is a persistent rumor that it originally (during lengthy
pre-publication playtesting) stood for:
Great Unnamed Roleplaying System.
I don't know for certain, though - I wasn't involved with it at that
stage ...
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:49:02 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr."
> <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Brett Slocum wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
> >>
> >> As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
> >> initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
> >> of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
> >
> >An acronym is a word formed by initials. D+D is merely an abreviation.
> >While GURPS wasn't a word in and of itself before the game it seems to
> >have become the name in and of itself early in the design stage.
>
> Ah, but do you remembre what "GURPS" stood for in those days, or at
> least, how was it represented in Space Gamer? ;-)
I remember its real derivation. Did I miss a joke?
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
> >the 1st ed. or did that become common shorthand later?
> >
> Before 1st edition, if you mean 1st edition AD&D. The term D&D goes back to
> 1973, if not before.
I said 1st edition D+D and I meant 1st edition D+D. :)
The three little books right?
Was it in the first one?
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> >Well, if we get to redefine words until they're funny, then lbh'er cerggl zhpa
> >na vqvbg.
>
> First off, that's not redefining words, it's typing up gibberish and
> expecting people to think you're clever.
He redefined "redefine". I thought it was clever.
Something I won't say about Terry _too_ often.
>
> Second, everyone else knew right off what was meant
Yup.
> and continued to
> use the word in the intended, albeit wrong, use.
Nope. I attempted to corrected it too.
The initial joke was still funny though. Would have been funnier if we'd
been
asked for the first initialess game though. :(
(Traveller? Anyone bother initializing one word?)
> I, and most likely
> everyone else here I'm sure, know what is and is not an acronym.
> Quite likely, you're the only one who cares.
Nah.
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
>
> Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
> >s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> >>:-) It probably *has* been referred to as BH, but that would be a rare
> >>occurrance - while D&D, T&T, B&B, C&S, TFT, EPT, etc., are (or at least
> >>were, for some of them) commonly used acronyms.
> >
> >letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
> >
> >(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
> >Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
> >
> >"Dee and dee" is *not* a word. It is a pair of initials.
>
> realize the dictionary would want me to use "initialism." But the
> dictionary is behind the times - the computer age has shifted the
> definition of the word acronym to include initialisms. In fact, it's
> now common to see "TLA" (three-letter acronym) to refer to a lot of
> computer terms. And TLA is a TLA in modern parlance ...
Well, sure, that's an acronym by today's new definition but would it
have been an acrronym in D+D's early days? <G>
Richard D. Bergstresser Jr.
Correct. Those are what I have, sorry.
I let myself get confused by the later modules.
But about the dates?
Anyone have numbers?
Dave Nalle
O'Sullivan) wrote:
> Lilith Costas <lco...@best.com> wrote:
> [Tom B. wrote:]
> >> Heh. I was there when GURPS became the official name of the game. I
> >> went to a gaming center called Hexworld in Austin, TX. GURPS was the
> >> working title of a game under playtest,
> >
> >Stood for Generic Universal Roleplaying System, I believe.
>
> There is a persistent rumor that it originally (during lengthy
> pre-publication playtesting) stood for:
>
> Great Unnamed Roleplaying System.
>
> I don't know for certain, though - I wasn't involved with it at that
> stage ...
I thought it stood for Generally Unsatisfactory Roleplaying System
Shawn McMahon
wrote:
>You *are* aware that the people form the language, not the other way
>around, right? Otherwise, things get unbearable. That is, if I say
Best example: "prelude".
I have dictionaries from 1970, 1980, and 1990 that I like to use to
show this word's evolution.
In 1970, the dictionary said "prell-yood" was the only pronunciation.
In 1980, "prell-yood" is preferred, "pray-lood" is an alternate.
In 1990, many (not all) dictionaries I've seen reverse themselves.
I wonder if, in a few years, "prell-yood" will vanish from American
dictionaries altogether.
Yet during this entire time, everybody I know says "pray-lood", even
the ones who knew better.
learn...@my-dejanews.com
Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
> > which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
> I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
> (I don't remember when Melee came out).
AFAIK, Melee came out in '77, which would give it the first deterministic
chargen, though Wizard wasn't for another year and In the Labyrinth for
another year after that; some might argue that TFT wasn't a full RPG until
ItL . . . since 2044 came out in 1978, the issue of "first deterministic
chargen" therefore seems indistinct to me. Dragonlance was 1980, so not
_that much later, but although it used points, it wasn't deterministic. (?!)
FWIW, I suspect it's safe to suggest that for much of the roleplaying
community, Champions was their first exposure to point-build systems . . .
what I want to know is, was Champions the first game to introduce
*disadvantages*?
learned, impartial, and very relaxed
learn...@my-dejanews.com
Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Ramhog wrote:
> > In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
> > <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > > ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
> > That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
> > which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
> I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
> (I don't remember when Melee came out).
Please ignore my immediately previous post in this subthread; I can't seem to
cancel it from here (anyone else is free to cancel it). I had a critical
memory failure :-) (including forgetting something I only learned today . .
. I didn't think I was senile _yet_)! _2044 was apparently 1977 by the
copyright date, and _Melee was 1978, so no matter how you slice it, 2044 had
the first deterministic chargen system. [Dragonquest was 1980, so not _so_
long after, and In the Labyrinth didn't come out for TFT until sometime in
'79/80. Anyone know?]
But I would still like to know whether Champions introduced "disadvantages".
. .
Ramhog
> Ramhog wrote:
>
> > In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
> > <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
> >
> > That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
> > which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
>
> I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
> (I don't remember when Melee came out).
No, you were thinking of Champions. ;)
Actually, I had Superhero 2044 and I don't recall a point-build system for
it. In fact, I don't recall much of a chargen system at all. I don't have
the game anymore, however, so I my be remembering it wrong.
--
-Later, R.
Nigel Clarke
:>In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
:><lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
:>
:>> Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
:>>
:>> > D&D - first published RPG
:>>
:>> That should be NON-BOARD RPG. Dynasty was a board game
:>> with role playing which came out before D&D but did not, as far
:>> as I know, influence any later games.
:>
:>Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
:>predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
:>copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
:>recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
:>through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
:>
I believe it's Midgard and IIRC Hartley Patterson was one of, if the not
the only person responsible. I think that it might even have originated
from a similar German game that he saw at a European Fantasy/SF
con. Still running using homebrew rules according to mail I had recently.
BTW the APA was News from Bree and is now used on H's web site.
Nigel
Chris Camfield
<rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>Chris Camfield wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:49:02 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr."
>> <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Brett Slocum wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
>> >>
>> >> As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
>> >> initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
>> >> of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
>> >
>> >An acronym is a word formed by initials. D+D is merely an abreviation.
>> >While GURPS wasn't a word in and of itself before the game it seems to
>> >have become the name in and of itself early in the design stage.
>>
>> Ah, but do you remembre what "GURPS" stood for in those days, or at
>> least, how was it represented in Space Gamer? ;-)
>
>I remember its real derivation. Did I miss a joke?
From a column in Space Gamer 67, apparently the first mention of GURPS
in the mag...
GURPS
Stands for the Great Unnamed Role-Playing System, now in actual
playtesting...
(So, to the other person who mentioned this acronym, it's not a ruma!
:-)
CC
WinningerR
>>.FWIW, I suspect it's safe to suggest that for much of the roleplaying
community, Champions was their first exposure to point-build systems . . .
what I want to know is, was Champions the first game to introduce
*disadvantages*?<<<
As they are presently understood, I believe it was the first such game. In any
case, it was certainly the game responsible for making "disadvantages" a
standard item in the game designer's toolkit ever since.
Dave Nalle
Clarke" <nospam...@northrock.bm> wrote:
But when did it first see print?
Scott A. Taylor
<klau...@get2net.dk> wrote:
> Which RPG originated the idea that skills could be used with
> different bonus stats for different tasks? Storyteller uses this,
> but was it the first?
hmm...
Have to look it up, but I believe Cyberpunk allowed this before
Storyteller (or, at the very least, I've always run it that way,
and dating back long before WW was a glimmer in Mark R*H's eye...)
--
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel
New E-Mail: izzy...@frontiernet.net
Thomas N. Bagwell
Lilith Costas wrote in message <3607BEA3...@best.com>...
>> Heh. I was there when GURPS became the official name of the game. I
>> went to a gaming center called Hexworld in Austin, TX. GURPS was the
>> working title of a game under playtest,
>
>Stood for Generic Universal Roleplaying System, I believe.
Sorta explains why they were looking for a better title, no?
GURPS stuck, though.
Bruce Probst
>> That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
>> which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
>
>I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
>(I don't remember when Melee came out).
Melee/Wizard/TFT are much older than DragonQuest. (Although I've never seen
TFT, what I've heard about it leads me to believe that it was probably the
major mechanical inspiration behind a lot of DQ.)
Bruce Probst bpr...@ibm.net
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759
MST3K-OZ Newsletter http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/pimlico/131/oz.html
ASL FAQ http://www.tne.net.au/njh/ASL/FAQ/FAQ.html
Bruce Probst
> Dragonlance was 1980, so not
>_that much later, but although it used points, it wasn't deterministic. (?!)
Gah! DragonQuest, not DragonLance!! And DQ very definitely *did* have
point-based deterministic character generation (subject to some die roll
restrictions, e.g., you couldn't choose to automatically be non-human).
Bruce Probst
>I can't think of any later skill-based RPGs that seemed
>to be influenced by Traveller rather than RQ.
It seems to me that most, if not all, Space Opera setting games after
Traveller used Traveller's prior experience ideas, even if they didn't
implement them in the same way.
Compare this to many fantasy RPGs, which assume characters have *no* prior
experience. RQ2 added prior experience as an option for character
generation; I have no idea if it was the first to do so.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
> Dave Nalle wrote:
> > Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
> > predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
> > copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
> > recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
> > through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
>
> You may be right. Peggy Gemignani wrote a long history of
> Midgard in A&E waybackwhen.
This is the first I've heard of this. Does anybody have a write-up of
the game on a website? I'd like to see it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Klaus Ę. Mogensen <klau...@get2net.dk> http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius
The Optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The Pessimist fears that this is so. - James Branch Cabell
Michael T. Richter
>> Dragonlance was 1980, so not
>>_that much later, but although it used points, it wasn't deterministic.
(?!)
>Gah! DragonQuest, not DragonLance!! And DQ very definitely *did* have
>point-based deterministic character generation (subject to some die roll
>restrictions, e.g., you couldn't choose to automatically be non-human).
You also rolled for how many characteristic points you got and what your
maximum characteristic value could be (using a perverse chart for "game
balance" that meant you could take a stat to 25 but didn't get enough points
to reasonably do this, or you could take a stat to a maximum of about 18,
but got scads of points).
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
PGP Key: http://www.igs.net/~mtr/pgp-key.html
PGP Fingerprint: 40D1 33E0 F70B 6BB5 8353 4669 B4CC DD09 04ED 4FE8
Buzz
Villains & Vigilantes had Weaknesses that had to be rolled for, and could
be eliminated only by dropping a power or two. This was the second
edition rules, so I don't know if the first ed. had them as well. Didn't
the first edition pre-date Champs by a bit?
--
buzz(at)funkadelic(dot)com
Brett Slocum
>what I want to know is, was Champions the first game to introduce
>*disadvantages*?
I think that would be TFT with an article in Space Gamer circa 1980-81.
---
Brett Slocum -- slo...@io.com -- ICQ #13032903
* New Illuminated Sitekeeper for Steve Jackson Games - send neat sites
* GURPS site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/gurps.html
* Tekumel site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/tekumel.html
"Ah'm yer pa, Luke." -- if James Earl Ray was the voice of Darth Vader
Brett Slocum
>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>
>> >RQ preceded Traveller?
>>
>> No, Trav preceded RQ.
>
>I wouldn't count Traveller as a typical RPG. Its military
>background generator not only killed off an appreciable
>%age of characters before they were first run but also
>seemed geared to solo runs rather than groups (though
>I know some people found ways around this). RQ
>was much more a typical RPG.
Well, that comment would have meant absolutely nothing to the people who played
Traveller in the 70s. We all knew that Traveller was as much a roleplaying
system as D&D or C&S. We all played in groups and had normal adventures. I don't
understand the differentiation into "typical" and "not typical". It is an
artificial separation that was not perceived by the roleplayers of the time.
>I can't think of any later skill-based RPGs that seemed
>to be influenced by Traveller rather than RQ.
Any system where you have relatively few different levels of a skill and a basic
task resolution system where skill increases your chances to perform the task
are Traveller-derived. Swords and Glory has a skill-system very similar to
Traveller. Aftermath skills are more like Traveller than RQ, as I recall, but my
memory of Aftermath is cloudy.
And if you want a system that preceded RQ and had a skill system (though
rudimentary), look at C&S. Weapon proficiencies added to your chance to hit with
a weapon. They just never applied it to anything but weapons.
Brett Slocum
write:
>Brett Slocum wrote:
>>
>> >Hell, I think GURPS may be the first that WAS actually an acronym.
>>
>> As in that you can actually pronounce it as a word? As opposed to a
>> initialization? Or do you mean the first game where the acronym is the true name
>> of the game and not the actual meaning of the acronym?
>
>An acronym is a word formed by initials. D+D is merely an abreviation.
>While GURPS wasn't a word in and of itself before the game it seems to
>have become the name in and of itself early in the design stage.
>
>Or: D+D is still pronounced "D and D". Discrete letters, unlike
>GURPS which is pronouced as one word rather than "G U R P S".
The reason I asked is because most people don't use the term correctly. You are
using the correct usage for acronym. But, D&D is an initialization, not an
abbreviation, as is IBM, AT&T, ITT, etc. (That is an abbreviation.)
Brett Slocum
write:
>Terry Austin wrote:
Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st edition. And
AD&D did have later editions, so the first version is 1st edition AD&D. That is
why he asked the question, to confirm what you meant.
Brett Slocum
write:
>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>> I'm very aware of the dictionary definition of acronym, thanks, and I
>> realize the dictionary would want me to use "initialism." But the
>> dictionary is behind the times - the computer age has shifted the
>> definition of the word acronym to include initialisms. In fact, it's
>> now common to see "TLA" (three-letter acronym) to refer to a lot of
>> computer terms. And TLA is a TLA in modern parlance ...
>
>Well, sure, that's an acronym by today's new definition but would it
>have been an acrronym in D+D's early days? <G>
Yes, actually, it was an acronym then. I am a well-educated person who went to
the best high schools and got excellent grades. I ran into initialism for the
first time in the last year. I'm 38. Acronym has included initialism in its
definition for at least the last 30-40 years. At least in my part of the
English-speaking world (Minnesota).
Brett Slocum
write:
>WinningerR wrote:
The first edition of Melee came out in 1977, at least according to the Classic
Microgames Museum (http://www.angelfire.com/ca/themav/micind.html).
Michael T. Richter
>Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st edition.
Is this true? I could have sworn that the game I started with was called
"Dungeons and Dragons" and was in a single 8.5x11, staple-bound,
non-hole-punched, blue book. After that it seemed to bifurcate into the
hard cover-based Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and the three hole-punched
Basic/Expert/Whatever Dungeons and Dragons sets.
Since Dungeons and Dragons was originally in three 8.5x5.5 booklets in a
box, the "blue book edition" (as I've always refered to it) seems to qualify
as a second edition.
Brett Slocum
>Ramhog wrote:
>
>> In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
>> <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
>>
>> That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
>> which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
>
>I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
>(I don't remember when Melee came out).
The first edition of Melee came out in 1977, at least according to the Classic
Brett Slocum
>In article <3607C0B9...@mediaone.net>,
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>> Ramhog wrote:
>> > In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
>> > <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>> > > ?? - first point-build system (I forget which a superheroes game)
>> > That would be either Melee (aka TFT) or DragonQuest, but I'm not sure
>> > which one came out first. And I think your thinking of Champions.
>> I thought I was thinking of Superheroes 2044, way before DQ
>> (I don't remember when Melee came out).
>
>Please ignore my immediately previous post in this subthread; I can't seem to
>cancel it from here (anyone else is free to cancel it). I had a critical
>memory failure :-) (including forgetting something I only learned today . .
>. I didn't think I was senile _yet_)! _2044 was apparently 1977 by the
>copyright date, and _Melee was 1978, so no matter how you slice it, 2044 had
>the first deterministic chargen system. [Dragonquest was 1980, so not _so_
>long after, and In the Labyrinth didn't come out for TFT until sometime in
>'79/80. Anyone know?]
The first edition of Melee came out in 1977, at least according to the Classic
Brett Slocum
>In article <6u5e4t$68v$1...@katie.vnet.net>,
> s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>> <abi...@csksoftware.com> wrote:
>> > s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote:
>> >
>> >> B&B - first non-humanoid PCs, first martial arts systems, first to
>> >> appeal to women as much as to men, first primitive attempt to
>> >> alter the level system into something more customizable for
>> >> each character
>> >
>> >I think Monsters! Monsters! was the first non-humaniod PC game & probably the
>> >first play the monsters game?! But B&B certainly wins hands down on the other
>> >things you mention.
>>
>> Hmmm - M!M! and B&B came out the same year - I don't know which was
>> first, I admit, so you may be right.
>
>Did Steve Jackson have anything to do with B & B BTW? I don't have my copy of
>M! M! at hand but I think his name is in the credits.
SJ edited Monsters! Monsters!. AFAIK, he had nothing to do with B&B (different
publisher and all).
Brett Slocum
>In article <19980921012036...@ng-fd2.aol.com>,
>docc...@aol.com (DocCross) wrote:
>>
>>>Toon--First humorous RPG (or should this go to Paranoia?)
>>
>>And let's qualify that to "First INTENTIONALLY humorous RPG", since alot of
>>games and supplements before then were UNINTENTIONALLY funny:)
>
>Hey, what about Arduin ?
>
>That certainly had intentionally humurous aspects.
>I mean, can anyone take an octarilla seriously ?
TFT also had Octopi - landwalking, intelligent octopi that could weild multiple
weapons.
John Rudd
> Brett Slocum wrote in message <36095511...@news.io.com>...
> >Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st
edition.
>
> Is this true? I could have sworn that the game I started with was called
> "Dungeons and Dragons" and was in a single 8.5x11, staple-bound,
> non-hole-punched, blue book. After that it seemed to bifurcate into the
> hard cover-based Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and the three hole-punched
> Basic/Expert/Whatever Dungeons and Dragons sets.
>
> Since Dungeons and Dragons was originally in three 8.5x5.5 booklets in a
> box, the "blue book edition" (as I've always refered to it) seems to
qualify
> as a second edition.
>
>
From what I recall, the blue book was for low levels (like 1-6 or something).
The book for levels 7-12 was red. They later added a third book (black I
think) for levels 13-(some higher number) and then later a book for "when
your character becomes a demi-god" sorta level of play. All of that was in
the 80's, if I recall correctly.
I think those books were labled "Basic", "Intermediate", "Masters", and
(something else... "Heroes" I think).
But yeah, that was the second edition of the game. Way back in the mid to
late 70's, there were three 8.5x5.5 booklets. These were the 1st edition.
What happened after that was kinda strange, from what I remember. Avanced
D&D was a re-working of these books and some expansion material (like the
paladin and ranger) into a new format and structure (each stat has multiple
modifiers that result from it, seperation of class and race, etc).
About that same time is when the Basic and Intermediate books were released.
They were concieved to be an introduction to the D&D universe, were you were
meant to eventually graduate to AD&D. The problem being that the blue and
red books were a different game system from AD&D, and had a following of
their own. That's why they later released the other two books, making it
sort of like two competing product lines.
So then, they released ANOTHER 'introductory' book that had a blue ink
picture on the cover that showed a red dragon (remember, in blue ink -- you
could only tell it was a red dragon from matching the facial structure with
the red dragon in the Monster Manual.. one of the few neat things about 1st
Ed. AD&D was that the dragons were all structurally distinct so you could
tell them apart even in black and white) sitting on a horde of treasure
looking out of the book.. and in the foreground was a fighter and mage facing
the Dragon, and ready to fight. This book had most of the system of "basic"
D&D (racial classes, etc), but some things in common with AD&D (9 alignments
instead of 3, etc)... and made mention of other character classes from AD&D..
it was plainly written to be something that you would graduate to AD&D with,
as opposed to sticking with the colored books.
This later book is what I started RPG gaming with. I slowly picked up AD&D
books from there, instead of going with the colored "basic D&D" books my
brother had. Some of my friends and I found prints of the 1st edition books.
One of them decided to start collecting these, and I traded my "Eldritch
Wizardry" and "Gods, DemiGods and [Devils?]" book to him for Gamma World and
Top Secret I think.
At least, that's how I remember it. I could be wrong.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jr...@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Michael T. Richter
>>>Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st
>>>edition.
>> Is this true? I could have sworn that the game I started with was called
>> "Dungeons and Dragons" and was in a single 8.5x11, staple-bound,
>> non-hole-punched, blue book. After that it seemed to bifurcate into the
>> hard cover-based Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and the three hole-punched
>> Basic/Expert/Whatever Dungeons and Dragons sets.
>> Since Dungeons and Dragons was originally in three 8.5x5.5 booklets in a
>> box, the "blue book edition" (as I've always refered to it) seems to
>> qualify
>> as a second edition.
>From what I recall, the blue book was for low levels (like 1-6 or
something).
You didn't read what I said. There was a blue book edition which was *NOT*
"Basic Dungeons and Dragons" BEFORE "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" was
published. Before ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons was published, as a matter
of fact (or simultaneously with it).
I know the rules you're speaking of (and it was levels 1-3, actually) and
these are NOT the rules I'm talking about.
>So then, they released ANOTHER 'introductory' book that had a blue ink
>picture on the cover that showed a red dragon (remember, in blue ink -- you
>could only tell it was a red dragon from matching the facial structure with
>the red dragon in the Monster Manual.. one of the few neat things about 1st
>Ed. AD&D was that the dragons were all structurally distinct so you could
>tell them apart even in black and white) sitting on a horde of treasure
>looking out of the book.. and in the foreground was a fighter and mage
facing
>the Dragon, and ready to fight. This book had most of the system of
"basic"
>D&D (racial classes, etc), but some things in common with AD&D (9
alignments
>instead of 3, etc)... and made mention of other character classes from
AD&D..
>it was plainly written to be something that you would graduate to AD&D
with,
>as opposed to sticking with the colored books.
This was published before the Basic/Expert/Master/Whatever line, though,
since I saw this specific book in 1978 unless my memory is REALLY faulty.
>At least, that's how I remember it. I could be wrong.
I think you are. I only ever saw the Basic/et al books after I came back
from Germany in '83. I saw the blue book edition in '78 just before I went
to Germany.
WinningerR
>>.Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st
edition.<<<
Actually, there were several editions of D&D: the original three book set, the
five interlocking boxed sets (Basic, Advanced, Expert, etc.), the "Rules
Cyclopedia" edition, and the large oblong black box edition all spring to mind.
I may have forgotten one or more.
WinningerR
>>.Is this true? I could have sworn that the game I started with was called
"Dungeons and Dragons" and was in a single 8.5x11, staple-bound,
non-hole-punched, blue book.<<<
That was originally published in the first DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS Basic Set (the
set came with this book, Module B1, and dice). For a time, TSR gave away these
books to interest new players.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
> And if you want a system that preceded RQ and had a skill system (though
> rudimentary), look at C&S. Weapon proficiencies added to your chance to hit
> with a weapon. They just never applied it to anything but weapons.
That can be said for AD&D as well (and maybe D+D, I don't know the game
well enough): It has a Non-proficiency Penalty for using weapons with
which you have no proficiency. Essentially having a proficiency with a
weapon means that you get a bonus of +2 to +5 compared to non-proficiency
weapons.
AD&D has skills: Thieves' skills, language skills, weapon proficiencies,
etc. It just doesn't have anything like a skill SYSTEM.
WinningerR
>>>From what I recall, the blue book was for low levels (like 1-6 or
something).
think) for levels 13-(some higher number) and then later a book for "when
your character becomes a demi-god" sorta level of play. All of that was in
the 80's, if I recall correctly.<<<
The Basic Set the early poster was referring to (blue book) covered levels 1-3
and was released in the late 70s. In the 80s, TSR reprinted this set (now in
red) and added others to form a complete D&D game -- the Expert Set (in blue)
covered levels 4-9 (I believe), then there was a Masters and Immortals set.
Brett Slocum
>John Rudd wrote in message <6ubov9$eb8$1...@cronkite.cygnus.com>...
>>>>Well, D&D only had one edition, so there is no need to call it 1st
>>>>edition.
>
>>> Is this true? I could have sworn that the game I started with was called
>>> "Dungeons and Dragons" and was in a single 8.5x11, staple-bound,
>>> non-hole-punched, blue book. After that it seemed to bifurcate into the
>>> hard cover-based Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and the three hole-punched
>>> Basic/Expert/Whatever Dungeons and Dragons sets.
>
>>> Since Dungeons and Dragons was originally in three 8.5x5.5 booklets in a
>>> box, the "blue book edition" (as I've always refered to it) seems to
>>> qualify
>>> as a second edition.
>
>>From what I recall, the blue book was for low levels (like 1-6 or
>something).
>
>You didn't read what I said. There was a blue book edition which was *NOT*
>"Basic Dungeons and Dragons" BEFORE "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" was
>published. Before ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons was published, as a matter
>of fact (or simultaneously with it).
>
>I know the rules you're speaking of (and it was levels 1-3, actually) and
>these are NOT the rules I'm talking about.
>
[snip]
>
>I think you are. I only ever saw the Basic/et al books after I came back
>from Germany in '83. I saw the blue book edition in '78 just before I went
>to Germany.
Well, I didn't follow D&D closely after Supplement 4 or so. And I didn't follow
it at all after AD&D came out.
Nigel Clarke
:>In article <pynexrabeguebpxo...@news.northrock.bm>, "Nigel
:>Clarke" <nospam...@northrock.bm> wrote:
:>
:>> On 22 Sep 1998 04:28:28 GMT, Dave Nalle wrote:
:>>
:>> :>In article <3605AE18...@mediaone.net>, Lee Gold
:>> :><lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
:>> :>
:>> :>> Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
:>> :>>
:>> :>> > D&D - first published RPG
:>> :>>
:>> :>> That should be NON-BOARD RPG. Dynasty was a board game
:>> :>> with role playing which came out before D&D but did not, as far
:>> :>> as I know, influence any later games.
:>> :>
:>> :>Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
:>> :>predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
:>> :>copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
:>> :>recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
:>> :>through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
:>> :>
:>>
:>> I believe it's Midgard and IIRC Hartley Patterson was one of, if the not
:>> the only person responsible. I think that it might even have originated
:>> from a similar German game that he saw at a European Fantasy/SF
:>> con. Still running using homebrew rules according to mail I had recently.
:>>
:>> BTW the APA was News from Bree and is now used on H's web site.
:>
:>But when did it first see print?
Try H's web site for more info
Nigel Clarke
:>Lee Gold wrote:
:>
:>> Dave Nalle wrote:
:>> > Didn't a British RPG called Midgard or Bifrost or somesuch actually
:>> > predate D&D in print by a number of years? I seem to recall an original
:>> > copyright date of 1969 in the edition I bought in the late 70s. My vague
:>> > recollection is that it was originally produced as a mimeoed set of rules
:>> > through some British SF/Fantasy APA or somesuch.
:>>
:>> You may be right. Peggy Gemignani wrote a long history of
:>> Midgard in A&E waybackwhen.
:>
:>This is the first I've heard of this. Does anybody have a write-up of
:>the game on a website? I'd like to see it.
There's a bit of background on Hartley Patterson's site at
learn...@my-dejanews.com
"Michael T. Richter" <m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
> Bruce Probst wrote in message <360d9c27...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >>it wasn't deterministic. (?!)
>
> >Gah! DragonQuest, not DragonLance!!
Another critical brain malfunction. I did mean DragonQuest, really!
> >And DQ very definitely *did* have
> >point-based deterministic character generation (subject to some die roll
> >restrictions, e.g., you couldn't choose to automatically be non-human).
>
> You also rolled for how many characteristic points you got and what your
> maximum characteristic value could be (using a perverse chart for "game
> balance" that meant you could take a stat to 25 but didn't get enough points
> to reasonably do this, or you could take a stat to a maximum of about 18,
> but got scads of points).
I don't have first edition of DragonQuest, but in the second edition, beyond
attributes and races, random determination was used for type of PC giants or
shapechangers, astrological aspect, social status and birth order. So this
is definitely an (attribute) point system which relies heavily on random
determination. It would be easy enough to "fix" by allowing player choice,
but as written only the character's gender may be freely chosen. DragonQuest
also lacks a true point system for skills; the random experience points given
out initially give 30% of characters no skills at all, 56% one skill, and 14%
are awarded two skills at special chargen discount rates!
Also, outside of weapons and spells, the rest of the skills would seem to
function more like a crypto-class system (allowing switching between classes)
than a true skill system, at least above the first couple of ranks, since
"skills" are broad with their functions tied very closely to skill Rank with
very high experience point requirements for advancement.
learned, impartial, and very relaxed
P.S. For those who aren't familiar with it, DragonQuest also contributed a
distinctive account of the skill, "Courtesan", of which I have excerpted
substantial passages below. Remember that this was an SPI game written in
wargame format, with numbered sections and bold headings followed by
explanations. [I have transcribed the bold passages with all caps]. The
passage takes on an even more ironic tone, since the general pronoun "he" is
used to refer to "the courtesan" although the following definition is also
provided: "A courtier is a male courtesan".
54. COURTESAN
Courtesanship is a social skill designed expressly to satisfy the needs of
lonely or status-conscious people,. . . . The consummate courtesan is also
the master of proper dress, [sic.] and attractive appearance and is able to
simulate a great range of emotions. . . . The GM should improvise and allow
a courtesan character to use his skill in appropriate instances. If, for
instance, the party is at the mercy of a homely witch of indeterminate age, a
male courtesan should be able to charm her, and at least save his companions'
lives if he plays it right.
54.1 A COURTESAN MUST GENERATE A VALUE FOR HIS PERSONAL BEAUTY CHARACTERISTIC
. . .
54.2 A COURTESAN ACQUIRES ONE ABILITY PER RANK
. . .
54.3 A COURTESAN MAY ATTEMPT TO SEDUCE A BEING WITH WHOM THE COURTESAN IS
SEXUALLY COMPATIBLE
The courtesan must arrange a meeting with his intended paramour, either
alone or with persons who will not interfere while the courtesan practises
his wiles. The GM rolls percentile dice; the courtesan's base chance of
success is equal to the courtesan's ([Physical Beauty]+[10*Rank]). the GM
then modifies the success chance, dependent on the feelings and condition of
the seductee. If the roll is equal to or less than the success percentage,
the seductee will retire with the seductor to a more private place. If the
roll is greater than the success percentage, the outcome will depend on how
great the roll is. A roll close to the success percentage calls for anything
from "the body is willing, but the spirit needs more convincing" to polite
refusal, while a high roll can result in anything from mild embarrassment to
the courtesan to violent consequences. Player characters are not bound by
the result when a courtesan uses his skill on them.
54.4 A COURTESAN'S FEE FOR SERVICES IS DEPENDENT UPON RANK AND GENDER
. . . The distaff side will do better at this profession in a male-dominated
society. The pay rates are reversed in a matriarchy. A courtesan is
expected to charge a lower per diem if hired for consecutive evenings.
54.5 A COURTESAN'S SOCIAL POSITION HAS PECULIAR ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES
. . .
54.6 A COURTESAN MUST PAY (250+[350*RANK]) SILVER PENNIES PER YEAR FOR FINERY
AND THE PROPS OF THE TRADE
. . .
The above amount does not include extraordinary aids, such as love
philtres, but does include perfumes and other frippery.
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learn...@my-dejanews.com
> since I saw this specific book in 1978 unless my memory is REALLY faulty.
> I only ever saw the Basic/et al books after I came back
> from Germany in '83. I saw the blue book edition in '78 just before I went
> to Germany.
Michael, there were _two editions of _Basic D&D; I never looked at the
second, so I don't know how much they changed it, but _both of them covered
levels 1-3. The difference was that, as you say, the 1978 edition expected
players and GMs to graduate to Advanced, while the 1982 expected you to move
to Expert, etc. -- the first TSR game designed specifically to be played by
munchkins!
So "1st Edition D&D" is redundant, but people should specify 1e or 2e of
Basic.
Anyway, IIRC the blue box only said "Dungeon's and Dragons" on the cover but
"Basic Set" was on the back; certainly the book was titled "Basic Book".
[Nostalgia: I wonder how many of us got our start as GMs with that Basic Book
dungeon; I know I did, and it's one of only three or so scenarios I've ever
run more than once. Also, that blue box gave me the only set of polyhedral
dice I ever needed . . .
learned, impartial, and very relaxed
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