Space-Rpg.
Clark Crawford
In article <55gchp$n...@news.uit.no>, knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) writes:
|> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
Traveller (realistic, hard SF), Mekton Zeta (cinematic, "light"), Star
Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
Both Space Opera and Space Master had some really interesting background
material, but horrible mechanics.
GURPS Space is an excellent campaign foundation for anyone who plays
GURPS, and an excellent resource for anyone else.
If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
too.
There are a couple of other new games that I'm not so familiar with.
Fading Suns? Another one? Don't let me leave out Star Wars (although
I've never played it). Palladium has done some stuff. There's a pretty
good index for this sort of thing in my web bookmarks somewhere; I could
dig it up if I weren't so lazy. Try WebCrawler. :)
If I were going to run something at this point (other than my own Hero
System monstrosity), it would probably be MektonZ (we need something a
bit more light and sexy, the way our lives are right now). My current
group likes GURPS, but I can't run GURPS.
Clark
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42: The number of incarnations that the universe will go through during
the time it takes for Windows 95 to boot when it is being run as a Turing
Machine simulation on HAL9000.
Zane H. Healy
Clark Crawford wrote:
> Traveller (realistic, hard SF), Mekton Zeta (cinematic, "light"), Star
> Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
> finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
I'm not to sure about the new version of Traveller. I've a strange
feeling B5 might soon become my setting of choice (that show had to have
been written with Role Players in mind). I just don't like where it
looks like Traveller is headed.
Mekton Zeta looks cool, but I haven't laid out the bucks for it. For a
Mech game I got Heavy Gear instead (I've got the OLD Btech material, but
am tired of it). HG is an interesting system, with what appears to be a
VERY indepth background considering how long it's been out.
> Both Space Opera and Space Master had some really interesting background
> material, but horrible mechanics.
I'm still looking for Space Opera, but Space Master is about THE most
intemidating RPG I own (I like the star chart poster though).
> GURPS Space is an excellent campaign foundation for anyone who plays
> GURPS, and an excellent resource for anyone else.
If you want to create your own setting, then GURPS is the way to go!
> If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
> too.
?!?!?! Uh, Star Hero came out in February, 1989 (just checked my copy).
It is interesting, I don't know that I would call it good, but is is
interesting. Still it's definitly better than CyberHero.
Zane
Jose Garcia
>
>I'm not to sure about the new version of Traveller. I've a strange
>feeling B5 might soon become my setting of choice (that show had to have
>been written with Role Players in mind).
The writer for the first three seasons, Larry DiTillio, comes from a gaming background and has written what some argue is the bes=
t scenario/campaign book of all time, Masks of Nylathotep (which I'm pretty sure I've just mispelled). He's not involved in the gami=
ng
industry anymore but he still games (I know because he emails me with
Shadowfist rules questions on ocassion).
I just don't like where it
>looks like Traveller is headed.
What direction is that?
BTW, for what its worth Star Wars is my favorite SF rpg. It has an
immediately acessible background (a big barrier to starting a SF
game in my experience) and cinematic action (I'm a big enthusiast of
fast paced, cinematic style games).
I ran a Star Wars campaign two years ago when Feng Shui first
began development (but before playtesting had begun in earnest) and we
had a lot of fun. My attempts at creating SF games in other platforms
have met with mixed results.
Henry Vogel
knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) wrote:
> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
>-Knut
Depends on what you're looking for. If you want a realistic, detailed
space rpg then I don't know what to recommend (I don't play any of
those). However, if you're looking for a fun, simple, fast-paced game
system, check out Star Wars from West End.
Henry
David G. Bell
In article <327DA4...@ix.netcom.com>
hea...@ix.netcom.com "Zane H. Healy" writes:
> Clark Crawford wrote:
> > Traveller (realistic, hard SF), Mekton Zeta (cinematic, "light"), Star
> > Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
> > finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
>
> I'm not to sure about the new version of Traveller. I've a strange
> feeling B5 might soon become my setting of choice (that show had to have
> been written with Role Players in mind). I just don't like where it
> looks like Traveller is headed.
>
> Mekton Zeta looks cool, but I haven't laid out the bucks for it. For a
> Mech game I got Heavy Gear instead (I've got the OLD Btech material, but
> am tired of it). HG is an interesting system, with what appears to be a
> VERY indepth background considering how long it's been out.
If you want to add a touch of hard science to spaceflight in Mekton, it
works quite well with the Cyberpunk supplements Near Orbit (now out of
print) or Deep Space, as, of course, does Cyberpunk. Mekton is at the
more cinematic end of the scale.
Since the publishers of the B5 game apparently didn't get a licence
covering the UK, it doesn't look like I shall be seeing a copy any time
soon. But I'd be inclined towards using it as a supplement for
Traveller (any version but TNE) or Cyberpunk/Mekton. The core systems
of the games are a good balance between complexity and plausibility.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
marty connell
I have played with the Space Master system and like it, but have
abandoned
it for Mutant Chronicle which I *love*.
Marty
--
# mar...@hpnjmc.njd.hp.com CompuServe:73267,3607 #
# MxCo...@aol.com #
# Martin Connell Northern New Jersey, USA #
##################### All standard disclaimers apply ##############
Zane H. Healy
Jose Garcia wrote:
> > I just don't like where it
> >looks like Traveller is headed.
>
Low quality, slick looking products out for the biggest buck. In other
words the route TSR, and Games Workshop have taken.
Of course this opinion is being formed with having only seen the one
book, and the news of non-RPG Traveller projects that have either been
started or are in the planning stages.
Zane
James Nicoll
In article <55k2q5$3...@engr.orst.edu>,
Clark Crawford <craw...@research.CS.ORST.EDU> wrote:
>In article <55gchp$n...@news.uit.no>, knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) writes:
>
>Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
>finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
Hmmph. Traveller isn't hard SF, unless the universe has become
2D in the last few minutes. You could build a hardish SF campaign off
of Traveller, but you'd have to add stuff like a realistic planet
generator (email a copy to the astronomers as they would like one,
too. Gas giants at 0.05 AU are implausible but apparently real),
realistic computers (CT is obviously to a restriction on computer
tech. Maybe Virus happened before) and maybe a good set of guidelines for
biochemistries. You could also make the universe 3D, but then you run into
the dreaded Mapping Problem (~1000 stars within 50 ly, increasing eight-
fold for every doubling of radius: the Imperium is tiny tiny tiny. It
should have millions of stars, not tens of thousands).
>If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
>too.
A version came out in '89 or so. It offered nothing of worth
which GURPS Spacedidn't do better and had some really dippy bits. Why
would active x-ray vision ever evolve? At least Benford's beasties
with micro wave vision had a plausible pathway to develop).
James Nicoll
--
" The moral, if you're a scholar don't pick up beautiful babes on deserted
lanes at night. Real Moral, Chinese ghost stories have mostly been written
by scholars who have some pretty strange fantasies about women."
Brian David Phillips
Jason D Cook
Marty Connell wrote:
> I have played with the Space Master system and like it, but have
> abandoned
> it for Mutant Chronicle which I *love*.
Agreed!
Mutant Chronicles is by far the most refreshing rpg to come down the pike in a while.
It has an elegantly simple game system and a setting that is both original and
interesting.
I fact, I would be surprised to hear of someone that did't like Mutant Chronicles.
Just my two cents,
Jason Cook
Mr. Tines
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On 2 Nov 1996 20:56:25 GMT, in <55gchp$n...@news.uit.no>
knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) wrote.....
> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
It depends on what your goals are. There's been a lot of talk over the
last year or so on the general subject of SFRPGs here on r.g.f.m about the
feasibility of a decent Hard-SF type of game (and whether it is humanly
feasible to run such a beast). I personally have never had much success
with the SF genre for RPG.
Otherwise, it depends which type of space fantasy game you'd like, and
where the emphasis is - do you expect your characters to be involved in
spaceship battles, or are such things about as incidental as naval warfare
rules would be to a 20th century spy game? How complex do you like your
rules?
Quick, easy and portable is StarWars (it's currently in use for a game that
I'm in that started out as a Man from U.N.C.L.E./Department S type c1970
spy setting, and has since absorbed a chunk of Dr. Who) - but you're on
your own outside of the licensed material. Traveller is the old standby
(though each revision is different in detail), and aims solidly at 1950s
style SF. Virtually any modern day game could be used with the weapons
rebadged - Over the Edge would be an easy conversion. I'm sure there are
people out there who have done fascinating things with the Buck Rogers XXVc
game, for all that the rules set is D&D in space.
- --
_______ Roger Penrose cannot consistently
/_ __(_)__ ___ ___ assert this statement.
/ / / / _ \/ -_|_-<
/_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@windsong.demon.co.uk
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Mark Hughes
Knut Martinsen <knu...@stud.cs.uit.no> spake:
> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
Sure. What tone are you going for? Hard SF? Space Opera? Red Dwarf? |+)
For hard SF, there's nothing better than ICE's Space Master and Cyberspace
(SpaM's rules are more comprehensive, and it's esential GMing material, but
CSpace's system, especially the character creation, is much simpler, and still
completely compatible). When you need starships, powered armor, tanks, or
anything beyond character scale, the Star Strike and Armored Assault wargames
are totally compatible, and let individuals still have an effect on the
batlefield.
There are those who will tell you it's difficult, but it's not, other than
the SpaM character creation (which is a great mechanic, just too time-
consuming for mortals). Seriously, give it a try (starting with CSpace)
before blindly accepting the opinions of the anti-ICE fanatics.
TSR's venerable Star Frontiers (preferably with the Zebulon's Guide rules,
but even the original system) was great for running 50's-style SF - it's not
hard science, but it covers the bases well, and the starship system (Knight
Hawks) is quite nice. The down side is that it's hard to find any more.
Star Wars is still quite a nice system for any heroic SF genre, not just SW,
though SW gives it an immediately recognizable universe.
Classic Traveller, and possibly Trav4 (I haven't bought it yet, and won't
until I can get a version with fewer errors) are quite good in their way, but
the rules always have stunk (MegaErrata's system would have been fine, if it
had been edited). The setting is great, based partly on H.Beam Piper's books,
but the rules have IMO never been both effective and playably error-free -
they can be one or the other, but not both.
Hero, especially with Star Hero, would be a VERY good choice for moderately
hard SF, but the only way to run hard SF in it would be by violating the rules
regularly (Hero is, after all, even with all the reality switches on, not that
harsh, and makes extreme results far too easy to obtain). Since Star Hero
characters would almost never be designing powers, it's a very simple system
to learn for the players, and it gives the most flexibility of any system
while still keeping abilities balanced and within a single rules framework.
Quite nifty.
GURPS is a fatally flawed system (the too-limited number of stats and their
extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come out
identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's, which
it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system takes
FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go on...)
I suggest giving it a very wide miss, but go ahead and look through it to
verify these problems, just so you know what you're avoiding. The sourcebooks
are useful, though, and it's easy enough to convert GURPS stats to a good
system.
Anything I haven't mentioned, I've either not seen (Dead Suns looks
interesting, but I'll wait for the tech book before even thinking about
getting it) or I disliked, but not as much as GURPS.
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"In headlines today, the dreaded killfile virus spread across the country
adding aol.com to people's usenet kill files everywhere. The programmer of
the virus still remains anonymous, but has been nominated several times for
a Nobel peace prize." -Mark Atkinson
JR Holmes
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
|>...
|>
|>Since the publishers of the B5 game apparently didn't get a licence
|>covering the UK, it doesn't look like I shall be seeing a copy any time
|>soon. But I'd be inclined towards using it as a supplement for
|>Traveller (any version but TNE) or Cyberpunk/Mekton. The core systems
|>of the games are a good balance between complexity and plausibility.
My impression was that Wireframe (and their co-publishers,
Chameleon Eclectic) were denied the UK licensing by Warner Bros.
I would presume that, given the huge popular success of Babylon 5
in the UK, that Warners thought they could make more money
marketing the game in the UK themselves rather than passively
accepting their licensing fees.
Warner UK certainly appears to be doing a better job of marketing
their very successful series than their US counterparts. After
all, you at least HAVE video tapes of the early seasons, while
the US viewers have yet to see anything. Warner UK may even be
able to place the game in a wider variety of retail outlets than
the traditional game stores.
--
JR Holmes
Rook
craw...@research.CS.ORST.EDU (Clark Crawford) writes:
>knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) writes:
>> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
Albedo is good if you want lots of socio-political drama and
realism. The 'races' are anthropomorphic though (humanoid animals), but
it has a scientific explanation for that, one which gives the game an
even more 'realism' feel. Albedo feels very scientific and political.
Yet it has a truely fascinating world. It's great if you're into
politics or sociology.
Mekton Zeta is the best Sci-Fi out there if you want Cinematic,
Heroic, and lots of drama and action. It can do anything from cyberpunk
(it's even compatable with R.T.G.'s cyberpunk) to deep space opera, to
Anime giant robots (the official genre it's based in) . It has a very
intresting character creation system btw. You have a lifepath that
fills in character history, every step of it is optional/chose/roll so
you're not forced into anything. You also have the option of playing
'older, experienced', or 'young kids/teens' just starting out. Nothing
I've seen equals Mekton for dramatic flair. It makes playing good-guys
fun, for those of us sick of 'angst' or 'jaded' gaming.
Both of the above two have very smooth, quick flowing mechanics
that work well with the flavors they try to achieve. Both are also very
flavorable and achieve their genre-moods well. They are also easy to
learn.
Albedo is put out by Chessex (dice,dragonskins,etc...). I't based
on a comic book by the same name.
Mekton Zeta is put out by R. Talsorian (Cyberpunk,Castle
Falkenstien,BubbleGum Crisis). It's inspiration is from Japanese
animation.
>
>Traveller (realistic, hard SF), Mekton Zeta (cinematic, "light"), Star
>Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
>finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
>
>If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
>too.
>
I have Star Hero, albeit the old version, which was kind of
strange...
>If I were going to run something at this point (other than my own Hero
>System monstrosity), it would probably be MektonZ (we need something a
>bit more light and sexy, the way our lives are right now). My current
>group likes GURPS, but I can't run GURPS.
? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
Rook
Rook
"Zane H. Healy" <hea...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>
>Mekton Zeta looks cool, but I haven't laid out the bucks for it. For
a
>Mech game I got Heavy Gear instead (I've got the OLD Btech material,
but
>am tired of it). HG is an interesting system, with what appears to be
a
>VERY indepth background considering how long it's been out.
Mekton Zeta is well worth the cost, you won't be disapointed. It
does as yet lack a detailed campaign world. However there are two
published for it. You just have to fill in most of the details. It does
have large sections discussing the genre and how to run a campaign
well.
>> If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty
good,
>> too.
>
>?!?!?! Uh, Star Hero came out in February, 1989 (just checked my
copy).
>It is interesting, I don't know that I would call it good, but is is
>interesting. Still it's definitly better than CyberHero.
Star Hero came out under 3rd Edition Hero, but was never updated,
something it needs badly. Personally, I like CyberHero.
Rook
Zane H. Healy
Rook wrote:
> ? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
> Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
> have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
> as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
What is GURPS Uplift? That is one I've missed.
Zane
Zane H. Healy
Rook wrote:
> Mekton Zeta is well worth the cost, you won't be disapointed. It
> does as yet lack a detailed campaign world. However there are two
> published for it. You just have to fill in most of the details. It >
What two campaign worlds. I need a good excuse to get this :^)
> something it needs badly. Personally, I like CyberHero.
I couldn't get past the bit of representing programs with Champions
super-powers.
Zane
Rook
In <327EFA...@ix.netcom.com> "Zane H. Healy"
Uplift is based on the Uplift series by David Brin.
There's also GURPS Hummanx, possibly out of print now, but you can find
it if you search... I remembered it right after my post...
Rook
Rook
In <327EFB...@ix.netcom.com> "Zane H. Healy"
<hea...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Rook wrote:
>> Mekton Zeta is well worth the cost, you won't be disapointed. It
>> does as yet lack a detailed campaign world. However there are two
>> published for it. You just have to fill in most of the details. It >
>
>What two campaign worlds. I need a good excuse to get this :^)
OK, there's the world of Algol, described in the book and in
"Operation Rimfire". It's an Ice age world with two rival powers in the
north and south each, with a neutral equator (similar to Heavy Gear,
though Mekton came out in 84...). The world was formed when colonists
flleing a war the 'ancient empire' of the 'Bendar Glaxy' was waging
against the 'Aggendi Massmind' (bad guys...) escaped through a stargate
to the world of Algol, destroying the gate behind them. A few Aggendi
ships followed and devastated them, sending most of them into the stone
age before being destroyed. 'Now', some 2000 years later, they have
recovered to the current state of no ftl, but colonies in orbit.
Another book, Mekton Empire, fast forawrds several hundred years to
when The Bendar Empire has reunited Algol. Giving you a deep-space
game.Algol is a good setting, but Mekton Empire, while intresting, is
written for the old edition of the game (As was Operation Rimfire, but
you can get upgrades to the current edition from Vmax, vol2, #4; which
is obtainable straight from RTG if not a local comic book store's back
issue section).
The second Published world is hinted at in the basic book. It deals
with Earth being invaded by humanoid aliens so similar to humanity that
they can interbreed after a little modification. However the aliens
have an entirely warlike culture. Though this is challenged as they
discover terrain-human culture... It's very similar to Macross/Robotech
if you've ever seen that. This world is covered in Mekton Wars 1 and 2.
1 shows it as a wargaming scenerio, 2 has all the roleplaying info.
This second world is the one I prefer, though it's a close call.
The basic book goes into detail about the genre and about both
playing and running games in the genre.
If one buys any supplement for it, it should be Mekton Plus. This
book is an upgrade to the Mecha design rules that allows one to build
anything from an android to a starship. Or even cute silly cartoon
robots. All with the same consistant rules set.
I trust Mekton enough that if it was someone I knew in person
thinking of buying it, I'd probably offer them their money back if they
didn't like it. Assuming they couldn't just get a refund...
Mekton has a website at:
http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~brett/mekton/
You can find product reviews and other info their. It's not run by
the publisher, to my knowledge...
>
>> something it needs badly. Personally, I like CyberHero.
>
>I couldn't get past the bit of representing programs with Champions
>super-powers.
>
I guess I can see that. Though it does work.
Rook
Luc Maillet
James Nicoll wrote:
> Hmmph. Traveller isn't hard SF, unless the universe has become
> 2D in the last few minutes. You could build a hardish SF campaign off
> of Traveller, but you'd have to add stuff like a realistic planet
> generator (email a copy to the astronomers as they would like one,
> too. Gas giants at 0.05 AU are implausible but apparently real),
> realistic computers (CT is obviously to a restriction on computer
> tech. Maybe Virus happened before) and maybe a good set of guidelines for
> biochemistries. You could also make the universe 3D, but then you run into
> the dreaded Mapping Problem (~1000 stars within 50 ly, increasing eight-
> fold for every doubling of radius: the Imperium is tiny tiny tiny. It
> should have millions of stars, not tens of thousands).
Who cares about a hundred thousand star systems with either no planetary
system or something entirely uninhabited? I mean, in a RPG supplement, I
expect to see significant features, and a bit of miscellaneous info
(space gossip) to spark up interest and imagination. But things a la
"Star Atlas number xx"? No, thanks.
> >If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
> >too.
>
> A version came out in '89 or so. It offered nothing of worth
> which GURPS Spacedidn't do better and had some really dippy bits. Why
> would active x-ray vision ever evolve? At least Benford's beasties
> with micro wave vision had a plausible pathway to develop).
Star Hero was, IMHO, a big and nasty stain on the HERO line. But that's
me.
Luc.
Tom Grant
> ? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
> Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
> have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
> as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
I'd give GURPS more of a hearing than this. Unlike the other games, GURPS
doesn't lock you into a particular setting--you're free to adapt all of the
available materials to any setting you want. And there's a lot of support
materials, including GURPS Space, GURPS Ultra Tech (high tech gadgets from
various tech levels), GURPS Vehicles, and soon GURPS Mecha, if that's your
interest.
In addition, they have interesting pre-packaged backgrounds, including
Uplift (the Dave Brin novels), Humanx (the Alan Dean Foster novels),
Lensman, and Terradyne (pre-FTL space campaigning).
If you want to adapt your favorite SF novel, or you want to develop your
own background, I'd play GURPS.
Joseph Steven Coleman
In article <55kdln$g...@nwnews.wa.com>, Jose Garcia <jga...@halcyon.com> wrote:
> He's [Larry diTillio] not involved in the gami=
> ng
> industry anymore but he still games (I know because he emails me with
> Shadowfist rules questions on ocassion).
>
Actually, Larry shows up every year at DunDraCon to run panels and
discussions for GMs. DunDraCon is every February in San Ramon, near San
Francisco. It also is the semi-official HERO con, with lots of local
companies representing, including Gold Rush Games, Wingnut, Chaosium,
RTalsorian, Chessex, Flying Buffalo and a handful of small press
publishers.
Very cool.
Clark Crawford
In article <55mrd2$c...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, ro...@ix.netcom.com(Rook) writes:
|>
|> >If I were going to run something at this point (other than my own Hero
|> >System monstrosity), it would probably be MektonZ (we need something a
|> >bit more light and sexy, the way our lives are right now). My current
|> >group likes GURPS, but I can't run GURPS.
|>
|> ? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
|> Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
|> have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
|> as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
For several years I considered which generic system I would learn, and
eventually settled on Hero. I know enough about GURPS to play, but
not to GM. Beyond simply not knowing as much about the game as the
players, over the years I have adapted my style of GMing to the Hero
System. I intuitively know when everybody gets to act. GURPS would
replace this with a completely different model. I dunno... does this
mean that I am lazy? :)
The nice thing about learning a generic system, I thought, was that I
wouldn't have to bother with learning new rules any more, and I could
devote my GMing efforts to other things. That philosophy has paid big
dividends over the years, but system support has been lacking. To be
honest, some of the GURPS supplements I've got are more useful in my
SF campaigns than my Hero System stuff.
So the answer to your question is: both, sort of. Just thinking
about running Mekton was a big leap. :)
Mainly, these days I am just looking at GMing from the perspective of
a quick & dirty weekly thing with an hour or two of preparation for
each session. Before, I did massive amounts of work for each game.
I just don't have the time any more.
Clark Crawford
It works better if you model cyberspace as an alternate dimension, where
physics are determined largely by the parameters of computer networking
and programming. Then one moves into cyberspace by way of EDM, and has
a different body that they emerge into there, with a different set of
Characteristics and Powers. (It's just a property of the relationship
between the two dimensions that the new body appears in cyberspace, and
that the unconscious physical body is left behind). That business with
the Desolidification is what I had to get rid of. FTL became irrelevant
as well.
The relationship between the cyberspace dimension and the physical
dimension is governed by the nature of the computer systems as we know
them. It also leaves more room for that additional sci-fantasy cheese
when you want it in your scenarios, without a lot of hoop-jumping (like
that business that went on in "Virtuosity").
The joy of EDM is that the GM can make up whatever laws he wants to
govern the interdimensional relationship.
Clark Crawford
In article <327EF8...@intelcom.fr>, Luc Maillet <lmai...@intelcom.fr> writes:
|>
|> Star Hero was, IMHO, a big and nasty stain on the HERO line. But that's
|> me.
Yes, I had the opportunity to buy the 3rd Ed. compatible version of it at
one time, but after perusing it I decided not to. What I was hoping was
that a 4th Ed. version of it would be released that was a lot like some
of the better 4th Ed. supplements that we saw, in terms of quality. Oh,
well... :)
Steven Anderson
In a previous article, hea...@ix.netcom.com ("Zane H. Healy") says:
>Rook wrote:
>> ? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
>> Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
>> have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
>> as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
>
>What is GURPS Uplift? That is one I've missed.
>
> Zane
>
The licensed sourcebook for David Brin's "Uplift" series.
Incidentally you can also add the 4 Space Atlases to GURPS giving players
Five more distinct gameworlds for an SF campaign (SA 4 was SA 4 & 5
merged into one book).
--
`I already HAVE a dirty name for the Easter Rabbit!"
Bugs Bunny
Steven Anderson
In a previous article, knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) says:
> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
>
>
>-Knut
>
There are a number of games out there. You might want to specify what
sort of space setting you want, Hard, Space Opera, etc.
In terms of material available, the big 4 would be Traveller, Star
Wars, GURPS and SpaceMaster.
Traveller is an oft rewritten game, the 4th edition came out a couple
of months back, you may have to translate a lot of older materials to fit
the new rules, or dig up an old copy of earlier rules (Traveller: The New
Era is still found in many stores).
Star Wars is a "cinematic" game, lots of abstracted combat. While you
can apply the rules to settings where the PCs may not be found a long
time ago in a Galaxy far away, the material really is geared towards
Lucas' cash cow.
GURPS Space is less a sourcebook than a guide for building your own SF
roleplaying game. It comes with several campaigns and 4 Space Atlases to
help you set up a campaign.
Rolemaster's SpaceMaster makes use of I.C.E.'s house system. If
you've played MERP or other RM games, you'll have little difficulty
adjusting to it's rules. Support material somewhere in the vacinity of
GURPS, but I'm not familiar enough with SpaceMaster to detail it for you.
Among out of print games, FASA's Star Trek was a fun game to play.
There is/was a Quasi-Trek game called Prime Directive that should be in
the stores.
Mark Hughes
Zane H. Healy <hea...@ix.netcom.com> spake:
>Rook wrote:
>> something it needs badly. Personally, I like CyberHero.
>
>I couldn't get past the bit of representing programs with Champions
>super-powers.
For describing a realistic Net, it fails utterly (take a look at ICE's
Cyberspace for a realistic and playable Net). But for describing a Gibson-
style matrix or a _Snow Crash_ Metaverse, it works quite well... My only real
complaints with it were the total mis-editing and having to go through and
recalculate almost every power cost, because the math was done by a dyslexic
chimpanzee (this may be insulting to chimps, and I apoogize to their entire
entire Genus) the first time 'round...
Dave Maple
Knut Martinsen wrote:
>
> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
>
> -Knut
Erm
- Traveller (Any version, only ditch the combat system if its T:TNE)
- Star Wars (Good Fantastic Sci-Fi, and most people know the background)
- Star Trek
- 2300 AD (If you can find it. Excellent Hard Sci-Fi)
- Space Master (If you have a love for tables)
- Near Earth Orbit for Cyberpunk (Well you didn't say how high tech you wanted it)
I'd stick with the top two to start with since they are in print and easier to get hold of, currently
Star Wars has the best product support, but Traveller looks like it will be the best realistic
space-rpg. IMHO
Dave Maple
"We are legion for we are Dave." - Dave
David G. Bell
In article <01bbcb4d$91d694a0$75f5...@cthulhu.macromedia.com>
tgr...@macromedia.com "Tom Grant" writes:
> > ? Don't like it or don't know it well enough? GURPS has Space,
> > Terradyne, Lensman, and Uplift giving it four space genre's. It may
> > have more that I've missed. I'd give it high ratings, but not as high
> > as Mekton Zeta or Albedo.
>
> I'd give GURPS more of a hearing than this. Unlike the other games, GURPS
> doesn't lock you into a particular setting--you're free to adapt all of the
> available materials to any setting you want. And there's a lot of support
> materials, including GURPS Space, GURPS Ultra Tech (high tech gadgets from
> various tech levels), GURPS Vehicles, and soon GURPS Mecha, if that's your
> interest.
>
> In addition, they have interesting pre-packaged backgrounds, including
> Uplift (the Dave Brin novels), Humanx (the Alan Dean Foster novels),
> Lensman, and Terradyne (pre-FTL space campaigning).
>
> If you want to adapt your favorite SF novel, or you want to develop your
> own background, I'd play GURPS.
One problem with GURPS -- while I have most of this stuff myself, a lot
of the more specific stuff does go out of print. I don't know the
current status of Uplift, Terradyne, or Lensman, but I suspect you would
be lucky to find any of them now. The more generalised stuff does get
re-printed. Of course, this does tend to reflect the sales, but it can
be awkward. GURPS Lensman, besides being a cracking good adaption of
the setting, includes a quite good space combat system for Space Opera
styles of SF, and I don't know of any other place to find it.
The other aspect of GURPS, which can make it appear very intimidating,
is that the system provides for several levels of complexity, from
relatively free-form through to detailed combat on a hex grid. The
supplements have to provide the detailed information, and this can make
things look horribly complicated. It would be nice, sometimes, for
there to be a little more attention paid to distinguishing the core info
from the extras.
Overall, I think the versatility of GURPS can make it a little more
difficult to start with. There is stuff which might never apply to a
particular setting in the base rules, whatever the level of detail you
need. There is a lot more work involved in setting up a campaign, even
with a supplement for a specific setting that you like. But once you
get past that initial learning phase, you might never need to learn
another game system again.
MULLIGAN J
Mark Hughes (hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu) wrote:
: For hard SF, there's nothing better than ICE's Space Master and Cyberspace
: (SpaM's rules are more comprehensive, and it's esential GMing material, but
: CSpace's system, especially the character creation, is much simpler, and still
Definitely. But finding a copy would be hard, as the old version is no
longer in print and the new one will be a while (from what I hear).
--
--
Jason Mulligan
Email to: ou...@net-unix.newcastle.edu.au
ma...@valinor.hna.com.au
"This is the Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One
Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power. He
greatly desires it - but he must not get it."
-- Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past"
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, craw...@research.CS.ORST.EDU (Clark Crawford)
spoke thusly:
>Both Space Opera and Space Master had some really interesting background
>material, but horrible mechanics.
While I've never actually looked at more than the outside of the Space
Opera box, FGU had a long tradition of producing games with
mediocre-to-excellent backgrounds and ultra-clunky mechanics. Other
Suns was like this too.
Space Master, though, is my personal choice of SF game. I *like* the
mechanics. Most people who criticise Rolemaster and Space Master for
having clumsy mechanics have never actually *played* either game with
anyone who knows what they're doing. (Both play quite smoothly when
the participants are prepared for the session.)
I might also add that the 2nd (last) edition of Space Maser was *much*
better presented than the original rules (contianed in Tech Law and
Future Law.)
On the other hand, SM is certainly not an entry-level game, and my own
tastes run to pretty sophisticated mechanics. Some (evidently most,
from the look of things) roleplayers want ultra-clean superfast
resolution--and that's fine if it suits their play style and they can
trust their group not to abuse looser rules. I like loads of detail,
so I like Space Master.
>GURPS Space is an excellent campaign foundation for anyone who plays
>GURPS, and an excellent resource for anyone else.
Agreed. It also has the most useful (not the most realistic, mind
you) set of star system creation rules I've ever seen.
>If Star Hero would ever come out, that would probably be pretty good,
>too.
Star Hero came out years ago for one of the previous incarnations of
the Hero system. I hated it, but then I've never liked Champions
mechanics outside of the superhero genre, anyway.
>There are a couple of other new games that I'm not so familiar with.
>Fading Suns? Another one? Don't let me leave out Star Wars (although
>I've never played it). Palladium has done some stuff. There's a pretty
>good index for this sort of thing in my web bookmarks somewhere; I could
>dig it up if I weren't so lazy. Try WebCrawler. :)
Fading Suns looks kinda cool, but I'm leery of it being too "40K" if
ya know what I mean.
Also, Battlelords of the 25th century is a fun shoot-em-up game,
played in the right frame of mind. The main rulebook alone has t0ons
of hilarious stuff in it
**********
Iron Czar
iron...@erienet.net
**********
Check out the Czar's shiny new homepage at:
http://erienet.net/~ironczar
Featuring the World of Ytherra
Andrew Cunnington
> Knut Martinsen <knu...@stud.cs.uit.no> spake:
> > Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
Also coming soon is White Wolf's SF game EXILE, set in the Null Space
setting. more details and links to the official site (with draft rules) can
be found at my web site.
Andrew
--
------------------------------------------------
Giaour (Andrew Cunnington) goth...@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~gothtech/
GothTech: Web design & Computer consultancy
------------------------------------------------
Peter
David G. Bell wrote:
> [...]
> Overall, I think the versatility of GURPS can make it a little more
> difficult to start with. There is stuff which might never apply to a
> particular setting in the base rules, whatever the level of detail you
> need. There is a lot more work involved in setting up a campaign, even
> with a supplement for a specific setting that you like. But once you
> get past that initial learning phase, you might never need to learn
> another game system again.
I liked the generality of Gurps, my main gripe and reason I don't like
it overall is the 'discreteness' of the skill usage system. To me, six
sided dice don't provide an acceptable range of human level skills.
Peter
Clark Crawford
In article <55ri69$b...@nerd.apk.net>, iron...@erienet.net (Iron Czar) writes:
|>
|> Space Master, though, is my personal choice of SF game. I *like* the
|> mechanics. Most people who criticise Rolemaster and Space Master for
|> having clumsy mechanics have never actually *played* either game with
|> anyone who knows what they're doing. (Both play quite smoothly when
|> the participants are prepared for the session.)
I will admit that we tried it for a few sessions, and finally gave it up
(although I never abandoned some of the background material). Just going
into it, the character creation rules are really neat (especially with
the compendiums added in), and the critical hit tables look like fun.
But we found all the detail to be, in practice, a distraction from good
roleplaying. I never really had any complaints about the companion war-
games--we liked those. Perhaps if we had stuck with the system longer,
we would have gotten the rules down pat to the extent that so much effort
was no longer required to use them. However, I fear that I might have
lost player interest if I had tried to push it that far, and I was kind
of lazy myself, so I gave it up.
|> I might also add that the 2nd (last) edition of Space Maser was *much*
|> better presented than the original rules (contianed in Tech Law and
|> Future Law.)
Yes, that was the one we used. I still use some of it. :)
|> On the other hand, SM is certainly not an entry-level game, and my own
|> tastes run to pretty sophisticated mechanics. Some (evidently most,
|> from the look of things) roleplayers want ultra-clean superfast
|> resolution--and that's fine if it suits their play style and they can
|> trust their group not to abuse looser rules. I like loads of detail,
|> so I like Space Master.
We can get into "Sheri and Tod" syndrome (only an SM player would know
what that is--!). ;)
|> >GURPS Space is an excellent campaign foundation for anyone who plays
|> >GURPS, and an excellent resource for anyone else.
|>
|> Agreed. It also has the most useful (not the most realistic, mind
|> you) set of star system creation rules I've ever seen.
I fused that system together with material that I found in 2300 AD and
came up with a pretty good (but not altogether complete) system. Best of
all, it is only about 10 pages. It only describes the physical layout of
the system, though, and I don't need it for most games (I created it with
wargaming in mind).
|> Star Hero came out years ago for one of the previous incarnations of
|> the Hero system. I hated it, but then I've never liked Champions
|> mechanics outside of the superhero genre, anyway.
That's actually what I do these days (superheroic space opera). I needed
an excuse to get the players into combat with really cool heavy weapons,
etc., without them getting killed a lot. MektonZ is the only non-super
game I've seen where that might also work, which is one of the reasons
why I started leaning toward it.
|> Fading Suns looks kinda cool, but I'm leery of it being too "40K" if
|> ya know what I mean.
Grim Dim Jim... <insert Klingon opera here> 8)
Alex Williams
In article <327EFB...@ix.netcom.com>,
Zane H. Healy <hea...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Rook wrote:
>> Mekton Zeta is well worth the cost, you won't be disapointed. It
>> does as yet lack a detailed campaign world. However there are two
>> published for it. You just have to fill in most of the details. It >
>
>What two campaign worlds. I need a good excuse to get this :^)
There are actually /three/ `worlds' currently available for the ZETA
system. The first is the standard Algol universe that its had since
just after inception. There are only a few pages on it in the ZETA
book proper, but there's a significant amount of background available
if you can find MEKTON II and the MEKTON EMPIRE books. Also available
is a few pages on the `I-Star' setting which resembles, vaguely, the
BTECH universe in that its a rather gritty galactic feudal empire.
The third, currently available, setting is the world outlined in the
little vinegettes throughout the ZETA book and expanded in the
`Invasion: Terra' books, one of which is almost purely a combat
scenario book, the second, THE INVASION: TERRA FILES (Mekton Mecha
Manual II), goes into some significant detail about the setting and
the characters.
If you don't mind doing some conversion (of which most has been done
if you look at archives of rec.games.mecha), Dream Pod 9 produced the
JOVIAN CHRONICLES setting for MEKTON II (with a supplimentary book,
THE EUROPA INCIDENT), a rather nice near-guture gritty setting. Note
that they'll soon be printing a new version of it using their
Silhouette rules systems, used in their HEAVY GEAR publication.
Also note that R Tal themselves are supposed to be publishing a new
`grand world' unconnected to any of the above, their STARBLADE SAGA.
The court's still out on it, however, since there's been no setting
info really released regarding it.
--
Alexander Williams {zan...@photobooks.com ||Member: Evil Geniuses
tha...@alf.dec.com} ||For a Better Tomorrow
============================================// => Charter Member <=
Rook
In <55vimv$b...@netnews.alf.dec.com> tha...@zeorymer.alf.dec.com (Alex
Williams) writes:
>>Rook wrote:
>>> Mekton Zeta is well worth the cost, you won't be disapointed.
It
>>> does as yet lack a detailed campaign world. However there are two
>>> published for it. You just have to fill in most of the details. It
>
>`grand world' unconnected to any of the above, their STARBLADE SAGA.
>The court's still out on it, however, since there's been no setting
>info really released regarding it.
>
Yes, this was advertised in the back of my copy of BubbleGum
Crisis. It's suppossed to be going for $18. Though I didn't see it
in the stores...
Rook
Dan Davenport
Iron Czar wrote:
> >There are a couple of other new games that I'm not so familiar with.
> >Fading Suns? Another one? Don't let me leave out Star Wars (although
> >I've never played it). Palladium has done some stuff. There's a pretty
> >good index for this sort of thing in my web bookmarks somewhere; I could
> >dig it up if I weren't so lazy. Try WebCrawler. :)
>
> Fading Suns looks kinda cool, but I'm leery of it being too "40K" if
> ya know what I mean.
I'm not that familiar with Warhammer 40K other than its "Orcs in
space"-type setting, but I can tell you that Fading Suns _is_ pretty
darn cool. (You can check out their web page at
www.holistic-design.com.)
Its setting is rather unique, so it isn't for everybody, but it does mix
in a little bit this and that from several genres: cybertech, swords 'n
sorcery, psionics, genetic freaks, demons, and even a hint of Lovecraft.
Definitely not "straight" sf, but you might find it a nice change of
pace.
Mike Pusateri
> > Knut Martinsen <knu...@stud.cs.uit.no> spake:
> > > Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
>
No one has mentioned Optimus Design System's Battlelords of the 23rd
Century. Don't let the title fool you, it is a GREAT game. The mechanics
are fairly realistic and you can resolve a 10 on 10 combat in a mater of
minutes. It has a large selection of players races and a line of very
detailed supplements. The books are also good for a few chuckles now and
again....
Check them out at
http://www.ssdc.com/
Paul Beakley
Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
>I'm not that familiar with Warhammer 40K other than its "Orcs in
>space"-type setting, but I can tell you that Fading Suns _is_ pretty
>darn cool. (You can check out their web page at
>www.holistic-design.com.)
>Its setting is rather unique, so it isn't for everybody, but it does mix
>in a little bit this and that from several genres: cybertech, swords 'n
>sorcery, psionics, genetic freaks, demons, and even a hint of Lovecraft.
>Definitely not "straight" sf, but you might find it a nice change of
>pace.
Fading Suns is actually very derivative of several other sci-fantasy
settings that have existed for some time: Dune and the something-Urth
novels (I'm drawing a blank; just look for titles where they spell
Earth "Urth" and you'll know what I mean) for narrative fiction, and
the Mutant Chronicles RPG for gaming. I was sorely disappointed when I
bought my copy at GenCon, and was left wondering how they could steal
so much conceptual material without being sued (or at least laughed
at).
Mutant Chronicles, by the way, has been around longer and has a lot
more materials available if you're looking for technofantasy. It's
also a vast multimedia license: there is a CCG, a couple of computer
games, comic books, an award-winning miniatures game, an upcoming
movie (to be directed by John Carpenter), and some really awful novels
published by ROC. Give the novels a pass.
Paul
Alex Williams
In article <5605qi$d...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>,
Rook <ro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Yes, this was advertised in the back of my copy of BubbleGum
>Crisis. It's suppossed to be going for $18. Though I didn't see it
>in the stores...
I don't think its been released yet; RTG has been uncharacteristically
close-mouthed about the STARBLADE SAGA stuff; I hope it'll be up the
the par that INVASION: TERRA set between its two thin books. At first
glance it looks a bit skimpy, but when you look at it for a bit you
realize there's a lot of lattitude in that setting begging to be mined
by a creative GM.
Logicrucible
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
>In article <55k2q5$3...@engr.orst.edu>,
>Clark Crawford <craw...@research.CS.ORST.EDU> wrote:
>>In article <55gchp$n...@news.uit.no>, knu...@stud.cs.uit.no (Knut Martinsen) writes:
>>|> Is there anyone who can recommend a good space-rpg?
>>
>>Traveller (realistic, hard SF), Mekton Zeta (cinematic, "light"), Star
>>Frontiers (classical, hard to find), B5 RPG will come out after Warner
>>finishes squeezing them through their sphincter. ;)
> Hmmph. Traveller isn't hard SF, unless the universe has become
>2D in the last few minutes. You could build a hardish SF campaign off
>of Traveller, but you'd have to add stuff like a realistic planet
>generator... [snip]
We have some software [commercial] capable of generating, not only
realistic planets, but also moons, stars, and entire galaxies. Check
out the Astrologicus Galaxy Simulator at our web site [click on the
astrolabe].
> ... You could also make the universe 3D, but then you run into
>the dreaded Mapping Problem (~1000 stars within 50 ly, increasing eight-
>fold for every doubling of radius: the Imperium is tiny tiny tiny. It
>should have millions of stars, not tens of thousands).
Given the right software, your personal computer can easily deal with
"the dreaded mapping problem".
Have fun,
Logicrucible
| mail...@logicrucible.com
| www.logiccrucible.com
| 816-767-0500
Steven Anderson
In a previous article, hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Hughes) says:
>
> GURPS is a fatally flawed system (the too-limited number of stats and their
>extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come out
>identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's, which
>it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system takes
>FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go on...)
>I suggest giving it a very wide miss, but go ahead and look through it to
>verify these problems, just so you know what you're avoiding. The sourcebooks
>are useful, though, and it's easy enough to convert GURPS stats to a good
>system.
>
To each their own Mark, my own experience with GURPS is that there are
far too many good advantages and skills to learn to end up with a bunch
of identical characters.
I have noticed a phenomenon that your comment above reminded me
about: Some people dislike a game and do everything in their power
consciously or subconsioucly to make it fail.
I can't say if the shoe fits in this case. (Don't know your shoe size
for one thing. ;-) )
Tom Grant
> > GURPS is a fatally flawed system (the too-limited number of stats and
their
> >extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come
out
> >identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's,
which
> >it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system
takes
> >FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go
on...)
> >I suggest giving it a very wide miss, but go ahead and look through it
to
> >verify these problems, just so you know what you're avoiding. The
sourcebooks
> >are useful, though, and it's easy enough to convert GURPS stats to a
good
> >system.
> >
>
> To each their own Mark, my own experience with GURPS is that there are
> far too many good advantages and skills to learn to end up with a bunch
> of identical characters.
I agree. Total baloney! I've played widely varied characters in GURPS, from
reedy professors to near-psychotic mercenaries, from alcoholic secret
agents to small town deputies who belong to the local thespian society.
Very few of these characters resemble each other.
I think the basic problem here is age-old divide between role players and
power gamers. As a role player, I never worry about min-maxing
calculations--far too distracting from the central character concept, and
the incremental gains aren't worth the work. Instead, I throw myself into
designing a fictional character, so I often write a one-page description
before I ever fill out the GURPS character sheet. The advantages and
disadvantages have real role-playing hooks, which the players and GM use if
they're honest and attentive. If you're more interested in creating the
ultimate gun-wielding cyborg instead of creating an interesting character,
then yes, the system isn't for you.
BTW, there aren't any disadvantages that are just token, or that you take
every time. In one of our earliest games, we found out the cost of having
everyone share the same disadvantage, overconfidence, which we all thought
was fairly innocuous. Problem was, we were in the brig of a space ship,
guarded by marines in powered armor, but we were thoroughly convinced we
could break out...
woodelf
In article <566lln$9...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
Beakley) wrote:
> Fading Suns is actually very derivative of several other sci-fantasy
> settings that have existed for some time: Dune and the something-Urth
> novels (I'm drawing a blank; just look for titles where they spell
> Earth "Urth" and you'll know what I mean) for narrative fiction, and
> the Mutant Chronicles RPG for gaming. I was sorely disappointed when I
> bought my copy at GenCon, and was left wondering how they could steal
> so much conceptual material without being sued (or at least laughed
> at).
first, it's stealing when you take 90% from one source. when you take 10%
from each of 9 sources, it's different. and you don't laugh at someone
who steals from Dune (IMHO). *i* like it because of the way that they
integrated the concepts. also, it has one thing that i've only seen in
one other game (Ars Magica): a Church that is believable and catches my
interest. It is neither good nor bad, with just the right mix of idealism
and faith with cyncism and opportunism. i am unaware of another SF/far
future RPG that actually integrates religion tightly into the setting, and
takes it seriously, with all of the consequences, good and bad. (Star Wars
has the Force, but that's a fairly idealized "religion.")
woodelf
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@yar.cs.wisc.edu
http://dax.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
Technomages here. --Vir Koto
Paul Beakley
nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf) wrote:
>first, it's stealing when you take 90% from one source. when you take 10%
>from each of 9 sources, it's different. and you don't laugh at someone
>who steals from Dune (IMHO). *i* like it because of the way that they
>integrated the concepts. also, it has one thing that i've only seen in
>one other game (Ars Magica): a Church that is believable and catches my
>interest. It is neither good nor bad, with just the right mix of idealism
>and faith with cyncism and opportunism. i am unaware of another SF/far
>future RPG that actually integrates religion tightly into the setting, and
>takes it seriously, with all of the consequences, good and bad. (Star Wars
>has the Force, but that's a fairly idealized "religion.")
Mutant Chronicles, duh. Much of the setting is built around The
Brotherhood, which is led by The Cardinal (is this sounding
familiar?), which is dedicated to fighting the Dark Legion but has
grown drunk with its own power and has grown arrogant and fascist
(stop me when it sounds too much like Fading Suns)... Oh hell, I'll
stop myself.
And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
Paul
Greg Benage
John R. Snead wrote:
[snip]
Thanks for the (biased) plug, John! :)
> Also, other
> than a single wormhole it's all pretty hard SF, no anti-gravity or similar
> physics-breakers.
While I certainly don't want to revive the "Is Blue Planet hard SF"
debate (though it _has_ firmed up a bit in response to that debate), I'm
curious--what characteristics of a traversable wormhole, based on recent
theoretical work on the subject, do you feel violate the hard SF genre?
For those interested, we're going to the printer with our full-color
Blue Planet preview poster. Look for it in December at your local game
store. Also, for those with free AOL disks laying around, Jeff Barber
is currently organizing an on-line playtest. Contact him at:
Thanks, all!
--
Greg Benage
Biohazard Games
http://www.biohazardgames.com/
Mark Hughes
Steven Anderson <an...@lafn.org> spake:
>>extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come out
>>identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's, which
>>it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system takes
>>FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go on...)
>far too many good advantages and skills to learn to end up with a bunch
>of identical characters.
What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
be good for your self-esteem...
The massive number of advantages & disads is part of my complaint about
having all of the flaws of Hero without the flexibility. I've no objection to
games borrowing from other games, but they should at least have the decency to
improve on their parents.
I noticed you didn't address my complaint about the combat system or mention
any strong points of GURPS... Some people just get an unthinking attachment
to some game, generally because they had a good game in it or because it was
their first, even though it could have been in any system, and decide to
support it unreasoningly. Come to think of it, that describes most human
religious and political behavior for the past 4 million years...
> I have noticed a phenomenon that your comment above reminded me
>about: Some people dislike a game and do everything in their power
>consciously or subconsioucly to make it fail.
I deeply enjoyed The Fantasy Trip, and had hopes that GURPS would turn out
to be a good full RPG[1] based on it. Imagine my shock and horror when I
found how utterly bloated and defective it was, and that it broke no new
ground, just retreaded other games incompetently... It's not a matter of
subconsciously wanting it to fail, it's that it *DOES* stink[2] and I'm
willing to say so.
This is probably surprising to people who only casually know me, but I don't
have an opinion on everything - I am a clean slate when it comes to most
subjects, in fact, I just fall silent when those subjects come up. But when
I do form an opinion after hard experience, I'll speak my mind about it,
whether or not it's polite, and whether or not my opinion is likely to offend
those with differing opinions.
> I can't say if the shoe fits in this case. (Don't know your shoe size
>for one thing. ;-) )
12 1/2-13, depending on the shoe. Hey, I'm 6'3"...
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
[0] I'm Real Man/Loony, myself, mostly...
[1] TFT makes a good dungeon crawl/arena duel game, much like xD&D, but it's
not much use as a serious RPG...
[2] Obviously, IMO, but I don't usually feel the need to waffle around and
attach "IMO" to every third sentence, when all of life is an opinion[3].
[3] You think there's an objective reality? You haven't spoken to a
solipsist recently, have you?
John R. Snead
If folks are willing to wait a bit, there's are really very nice SF game
coming out in January/February of 97. Blue Planet by Biohazard games.
Most of it concentrates on Earth's single colony world (Poseidon) but
there is also extensive material on asteroid belt colonies and colonies
throughout the solar system and the Tau Ceti system. It also has a nicely
transhumanist, with extensive genetic engineering, bioforming, and
reasonable cyberware (ie no silliness like chainsaw hands). Also, other
than a single wormhole it's all pretty hard SF, no anti-gravity or similar
physics-breakers.
Look for it, I recommend it (of course I wrote 40% of it, but it honestly is
good).
Enjoy-
-John Snead jsn...@netcom.com
-PRG writer for hire
Paul F. Strack
All right, I'll bite. I have to admit that I am a GURPS convert, rather
than a die hard GURPS fan. I used to have the same feelings about GURPS
that Mark does. Then I started running for a group of players that
insisted on using GURPS. Since then, I've seen a number of advantages in
the system, and have gotten rather fond of it.
Mark Hughes (hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu) wrote:
: What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
: part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
: points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
: advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
: Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
: be good for your self-esteem...
You are quite correct here. This was the original reason why *I* was
turned off on GURPS. There is a distinct advantage to having high
attributes and very few points in skills when you are creating a
character. As characters develop, though, this situation is reversed.
The extremely high cost of attributes makes it prohibitive to increase
them during play, and people spends points on skills instead, making
characters more and more rounded as the game goes on.
I've found that this is a rather nice feature. Characters start off
fairly competent, and have relatively smooth growth as well.
: The massive number of advantages & disads is part of my complaint about
: having all of the flaws of Hero without the flexibility. I've no objection to
: games borrowing from other games, but they should at least have the decency to
: improve on their parents.
GURPS isn't as flexible as Champions, but it isn't meant to be. GURPS
and Champions are very different games, despite their superficial
similarities. Champions is generalized and open ended, while GURPS is
voluminous and specific. Champions will let you do anything, but the
genres that GURPS cover tend to be more closely tailored, and "fit"
better, IMHO. I thing that GURPS does most genres better than Champions,
including cyberpunk, modern espionage, fantasy, space, etc. The one
exception is superheroes, where Champions reigns supreme.
: I noticed you didn't address my complaint about the combat system or mention
: any strong points of GURPS...
I don't find GURPS combat all that difficult or time consuming. Champions
still wins out easily for the longest combats (and for a superhero game,
that's a *good* thing). I run GURPS for a group with 8 people, have two
or three combats per session, and still have plenty of time for other
things. Combats rarely run longer than an hour.
Mind you, GURPS combat has its quirks. I *still* don't like the way PD,
works, even though I think that it isn't too unrealistic. As a whole,
though, it gives you a great deal of choice and flexibility in your
actions, and handles them quickly and realistically. I rank it as my
second most favorite combat system (after Champions).
The main strength of GURPS is that it has so many rules. GURPS has rules
that cover almost every situation that arises in your average gaming
session. Furthermore, most of these individual rules are fairly well
thought out. I have to work pretty hard to find a rule that allows
something that seems completely unrealistic (e.g. babies being able to
throw footballs 20 yards in Champions).
Of course, the bulk of rules is also GURPS's main weakness. Many people
don't like ot play games with lots of rules, including myself sometimes.
In those circumstances, I tend to play something else, or just run a
diceless game. When I run a rules intensive game, though, my first
choice is GURPS.
--
Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll.
pfst...@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html
S.F. Eley
Paul Beakley wrote:
> And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
> percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
> overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
I just bought Fading Suns yesterday, and have been reading through it.
My problem is NOT with their stealing campaign material from other
literature -- sure, jumpgates and symbiots and everything else have all
been done to death, but the FS combination of them is coherent,
atmospheric, and evocative. I think they've done an excellent job
creating a medieval campaign in the far future, and the game universe AS
A WHOLE is unique and playable.
My problem is the way they stole their gaming system. I bought the game
because I have friends and fraternity alumni in Holistic, I've enjoyed
the computer games they've done, and I had heard that Fading Suns was a
powerful and original game. Imagine my chagrin, then, when I found out
that the authors had carried the White Wolf system with them into this
"innovative" game at an entirely different company!
The mechanics and style are ALMOST identical to any WW game, down to the
number of editorial mistakes. They use a single d20 instead of several
d10's, but it still uses the clunky attributes+skills system. They even
refer to "number of successes" out of a single die roll! The character
system uses explicit lists of "virtues" and "stereotypes" in place of
descriptive depth.. They use the same wacky narrative concepts as
discrete units of time (they call them "dramas" and "epics" this
time).. They use the notorious "Example of Play" in the confusing
two-column layout.. There's a bit more variegation into Houses and
Leagues and Church sects than most WW games offer by themselves, but the
application is still the same: They have parceled the game universe
into discrete, prepackaged, black-and-white units, and told the
Gamemaster in point-form and column format how to run these "campaign
chunks" in a game.
The campaign is still cool, and I intend to play it sometime. If I can
find someone to GM I'll play and keep my complaints to myself; if I GM
it myself, I'll probably push everything into GURPS or some other system
that doesn't annoy me as much.
I realize it's just personal opinion, but I *really* dislike the way
White Wolf writes its games. I think the reason I'm so upset about
Fading Suns is because I got a White Wolf game with a Holistic Designs
logo on it, when I was really expecting.. Well, I guess a Holistic
Designs game.
(Now I'll take a five-second head start before you all flame me into
oblivion...)
Blessings,
_TNX._
Paul Beakley
"S.F. Eley" <sfe...@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>I realize it's just personal opinion, but I *really* dislike the way
>White Wolf writes its games. I think the reason I'm so upset about
>Fading Suns is because I got a White Wolf game with a Holistic Designs
>logo on it, when I was really expecting.. Well, I guess a Holistic
>Designs game.
Yes, that too (another "10 percent" of source material stolen,
although I might have to give system a solid 30 percent). I am quite
certain that everyone at Holistic is fully capable of designing an
original game. There's no shortage of talent there. It's just too bad
they didn't stretch their wings a little further after leaving the
nest.
Paul
ad...@aol.com
So use a percentile based on the GURPS range. You can change the point
system to be a flat rate (1point=1percent) or a scale that goes something
like this:
Points Percent
1 10
2 19
4 27
8 34
12 40
16 45
18 50
you could add a base attribute to the mix and add that to the skill. This
is just off the top of my head so don't flame it too badly.
Chris
Lost child of
The Familiar, Ltd
Thomas R Scudder
Paul Beakley (Pa...@z-com.com) wrote:
: Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
: >I'm not that familiar with Warhammer 40K other than its "Orcs in
: >space"-type setting, but I can tell you that Fading Suns _is_ pretty
: >darn cool. (You can check out their web page at
: >www.holistic-design.com.)
: >Its setting is rather unique, so it isn't for everybody, but it does mix
: >in a little bit this and that from several genres: cybertech, swords 'n
: >sorcery, psionics, genetic freaks, demons, and even a hint of Lovecraft.
: >Definitely not "straight" sf, but you might find it a nice change of
: >pace.
: Fading Suns is actually very derivative of several other sci-fantasy
: settings that have existed for some time: Dune and the something-Urth
: novels (I'm drawing a blank; just look for titles where they spell
: Earth "Urth" and you'll know what I mean) for narrative fiction, and
: the Mutant Chronicles RPG for gaming. I was sorely disappointed when I
: bought my copy at GenCon, and was left wondering how they could steal
: so much conceptual material without being sued (or at least laughed
: at).
It doesn't seem so much derivative of Dune as of the Book of the New Sun.
(The prose, in particular, echoes several of Wolfe's key phrases --
"Urth", "Pancreator", etc.) At first glance, though, it does what it sets
out to do reasonably well, and has some interesting mechanics (I like how
the personality stats interact with the psionix system, etc.). I probably
won't be buying it, just because I don't know who in the world I'd ever
play it with (I'd want it to be some other New Sun junkies, and I don't
really know too many of those).
--
Tom Scudder aka tom...@umich.edu <*> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tomscud
UNALTERED REPRODUCTION and ^ @
DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT | (this whitespace for rent) @
INFORMATION is ENCOURAGED +-- Perth @
woodelf
> The mechanics and style are ALMOST identical to any WW game, down to the
> number of editorial mistakes. They use a single d20 instead of several
> d10's, but it still uses the clunky attributes+skills system. They even
> refer to "number of successes" out of a single die roll! The character
> system uses explicit lists of "virtues" and "stereotypes" in place of
> descriptive depth.. They use the same wacky narrative concepts as
> discrete units of time (they call them "dramas" and "epics" this
> time).. They use the notorious "Example of Play" in the confusing
> two-column layout.. There's a bit more variegation into Houses and
> Leagues and Church sects than most WW games offer by themselves, but the
> application is still the same: They have parceled the game universe
> into discrete, prepackaged, black-and-white units, and told the
> Gamemaster in point-form and column format how to run these "campaign
> chunks" in a game.
i see what you're saying, and i suspect it may just be difference of
opinion, but i think they only kept the good parts. i've always like
skill+attribute because it's easy to figure out what to do if you don't
explicitly have the skill. (i'd actually want some modification, so that
someone with a high attribute but no skill isn't better than the well
trained person with a poor attribute. but that tends to add more
mathematical complexity than i'm willing to invest for the improvement.)
using a single die instead of multiple dice eliminates the statistical
faults of Storyteller. expanding the scale to 10 instead of 5 gives a
finer gradation, making it easier to differentiate between abilities
(though i'd go for 20 or more, given the chance). while i don't generally
go for "templates" for characters, the ones in FS are profession- or
social-class-based--very appropriate for the stratified game
setting--rather than psychologically pigeonholed as WoD templates tend to
be. and they provided a much broader setting, though they didn't fill it
all out right away. frex, i thought there was plenty of info to create a
gannok PC, even though there was nothing about them in the character
creation rules.
i disagree that the units in question are at all black-and-white. the
only thing that is that easily categorized, IMHO, is the symbiots (and
perhaps not even them). i was actually impressed with the way that they
used templates/groups *without* designating some of htem as "good guys"
and some as "bad guys." i actually feel much more free to do what i want
without breaking the universe than i do in most game settings (that i
didn't create).
as for some of hte presentation elements (example of play, etc.), i guess
i don't really have an opinion. i'm glad the printing on gray screens
isn't in evidence, i didn't notice many typos, and i think that is one of
the better ways to do an example of play.
> I realize it's just personal opinion, but I *really* dislike the way
> White Wolf writes its games. I think the reason I'm so upset about
> Fading Suns is because I got a White Wolf game with a Holistic Designs
> logo on it, when I was really expecting.. Well, I guess a Holistic
> Designs game.
very derivative in style, yes. but i disagree that it's that derivative
in actual substance. the book even smells different (just noticed that as
i was checking something; probably different printing process or ink, or
something).
Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore
Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens
again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out. - Ivanova
Philip Masters
In article: <56e23b$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
> And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
> percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
> overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
Yes, quite. But does anyone know if Frankly Herbert *consciously* stole the
Shield concept from Charles Harness? (I tend to assume that every other
such case since was a conscious swipe from one or the other, of course.)
--
Phil Masters
Old Home Page:
http://www.taynet.co.uk/~gdx/users/masters/index.htm
New Home Page:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
Kevin Mowery
: pop.mindspring.com> <01bbd29e$cbfb7260$3711f8ce@retrotech>
Distribution:
Michael T. Richter (m...@igs.net) wrote:
: > The mechanics and style are ALMOST identical to any WW game, down to the
: > number of editorial mistakes. They use a single d20 instead of several
: > d10's, but it still uses the clunky attributes+skills system. They even
: The "attributes+skills" system has a long, ignoble tradition actually. Off
: my current gaming shelf, here are the games which use this kind of
: mechanism to one degree or another: Masterbook, Traveller: The New Era,
: Immortal, Epiphany, Macho Women with Guns, Dark Conspiracy, Kult, Star
: Wars, Mekton Zeta, Night Life, A.C.E. Agents. Several of these predate any
: WW game or are descended from games which predate any WW game.
Well, I don't have all the books handy, but of your list, the
earliest games by the companies in question that used Attribute + Skill
mechanics are Expendables (Stellar Games), Cyberpunk (R. Talsorian), and
Star Wars (West End). I couldn't say which came first. AD&D also started
using a really crippled version of it when the Dungeoneer's Wilderness
Survival Guides came out--buying a skill meant you had it at a level
determined by attributes, and then you could slowly raise that.
At any rate, I've never had a single problem with Attribute +
Skill gaming. It's an easy system for people to understand, for one
thing. For another, it's not horribly unrealistic. If someone is
moderately dextrous, they'll be better at throwing things (for instance)
than someone who's clumsy. The clumsy person might train until they're as
good as the naturally dextrous person, or even beyond that. But the
dextrous person could also train. In situations where default use of a
skill would be silly, I just don't allow it (I don't care if you *are* a
genius with good hand-eye coordination, you can't guess your way through
flying a fighter jet).
Just my tuppence on everything about the attributes+skills system.
--
Kevin "Monkey Man" Mowery kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
"Sure, Kevin, it's funny on paper, but where does it go? Where does it
go? I'm chopping up a cow, covered in blood--it practically writes
itself!" --Kevin McDonald on his rejected monologue "Butchering a Cow"
FloralMotif
On 14 Nov 1996, Paul F. Strack wrote:
> I thing that GURPS does most genres better than Champions, including
> cyberpunk, modern espionage, fantasy, space, etc. The one exception is
> superheroes, where Champions reigns supreme.
While certainly GURPS has turned out more source material for
generes, I'm not entirely sure that it does the generes better. I've
been running FANTASY HERO for over 10 years now, and if you are willing
to put in the time and the effort, the HERO system still is hands down
better than anything else I've used. Because it stresses the toolkit
approach, you can tailor the game to the genere. But.....as one of the
major detractions, it *does* take a fair amount of GM invested time to
pull this off.
I think one of the big differences that GURPS and HERO have is
their approach to the generes, GURPS turns out a relatively inexpensive
genere modules while HERO tries to turn out new gamesystem books,
explaining how to use the HERO system in a particular genere. With
GURPS, you don't have to munge the basic system to get the feel of the
genere as much, with HERO there is a fair amount of work, but the payoffs
are better. (IMHO) Probably apples and oranges in the final analysis.
Best,
Glenn Thain - 628 Smithridge - Reno, NV. - 89502 - (702)827-8601
(Please don't send e-mail, I'm just a guest on this account).
Michael T. Richter
> The mechanics and style are ALMOST identical to any WW game, down to the
> number of editorial mistakes. They use a single d20 instead of several
> d10's, but it still uses the clunky attributes+skills system. They even
The "attributes+skills" system has a long, ignoble tradition actually. Off
my current gaming shelf, here are the games which use this kind of
mechanism to one degree or another: Masterbook, Traveller: The New Era,
Immortal, Epiphany, Macho Women with Guns, Dark Conspiracy, Kult, Star
Wars, Mekton Zeta, Night Life, A.C.E. Agents. Several of these predate any
WW game or are descended from games which predate any WW game.
Who ripped off whom, then?
--
Michael T. Richter
m...@igs.net
http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
Steven Anderson
In a previous article, hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Hughes) says:
>
> What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
>part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
>points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
>advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
>Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
>be good for your self-esteem...
As opposed to just having rolled really good stats for your character
relative to the rest of the group. RPGs from day one have dealt with the
unequal characters problem and not fallen apart. The fact that the less
able point shaving player must roleplay harder or lose ground to the well
made PC doesn't particularly bother me.
> >
> I noticed you didn't address my complaint about the combat system or mention
>any strong points of GURPS... Some people just get an unthinking attachment
>to some game, generally because they had a good game in it or because it was
>their first, even though it could have been in any system, and decide to
>support it unreasoningly. Come to think of it, that describes most human
>religious and political behavior for the past 4 million years...
>
Mostly because a) this thread's topic is Space-rpg and your comments
there had little relevancy to Space Roleplaying games and b) I wasn't in
the mood have another petty flame war break out. Also, I'm trying recall
those comments and can't. Nothing in particular there came across to me
as worth noting I'm afraid beyond a general attitude that you didn't like
the way they chose to do things.
Maybe I missed it but if there was any substance behind your opinion
it didn't get through to me.
>> I can't say if the shoe fits in this case. (Don't know your shoe size
>>for one thing. ;-) )
>
> 12 1/2-13, depending on the shoe. Hey, I'm 6'3"...
>
Interesting coincidences: Same height and where in God's name do you
find any 12 1/2 sized shoes? Stores I frequent have 12 or 13 only.
Michael T. Richter
Kevin Mowery <kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote:
> At any rate, I've never had a single problem with Attribute +
> Skill gaming. It's an easy system for people to understand, for one
> thing. For another, it's not horribly unrealistic. If someone is
> moderately dextrous, they'll be better at throwing things (for instance)
> than someone who's clumsy. The clumsy person might train until they're
as
> good as the naturally dextrous person, or even beyond that. But the
> dextrous person could also train. In situations where default use of a
> skill would be silly, I just don't allow it (I don't care if you *are* a
> genius with good hand-eye coordination, you can't guess your way through
> flying a fighter jet).
Actually you hit my major objection to Attribute+Skill right on the head.
It isn't a good model for things. Systems like CORPS and Timelords, where
attributes provide a minimal base for things, are much better in my
opinion.
The problem with straight A+S systems is that I, the GM, have to intervene
far too often to keep results within the realm of the reasonable and
plausible. They also have a tendency to be easily minimaxed (like I
pointed out in my review of Traveller 0.5, for instance).
This is not to say that I hate A+S systems: by no means is this the case.
I just think that they are somewhat problematical.
Justin R Achilli
Kevin Mowery wrote:
> At any rate, I've never had a single problem with Attribute +
> Skill gaming. It's an easy system for people to understand, for one
> thing.
You see it most frequently in systems where the engine is supposed to
fade into the background when issues resolving resolution occur, like
Fading Suns. And it certainly is easy to grasp, I'll agree. :) See
next topic...
> For another, it's not horribly unrealistic. If someone is
> moderately dextrous, they'll be better at throwing things (for instance)
> than someone who's clumsy. The clumsy person might train until they're as
> good as the naturally dextrous person, or even beyond that. But the
> dextrous person could also train.
On the other hand, it's not terribly _realistic_, either. It works
best in situations of sweeping generality, as you've illustrated
above. I think the GURPS system is a good deal more realistic, basing
the skill on the governing attribute, but focusing more on the
performance of that particular aspect (plus, your defaults tend to be
realistically low).
I don't think Holistic really wanted a hyper-realistic system,
however, to get back to the original statement regarding the
mechanics.
> In situations where default use of a
> skill would be silly, I just don't allow it (I don't care if you *are* a
> genius with good hand-eye coordination, you can't guess your way through
> flying a fighter jet).
Oh, come on! You don't think that the average television watcher might
have heard enough about nuclear power plants on the news to prevent
one's core from reaching meltdown? :)
Regards,
Justin
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
- Justin R. Achilli - Vampire: The Dark Ages Developer - WWGS -
- mailto:jach...@white-wolf.com -- http://www.white-wolf.com -
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Missing somewhere, never will admit just how much."
This Mortal Coil, "Mr. Somewhere"
athol-brose
In article <56fu65$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Thomas R Scudder <tom...@umich.edu> wrote:
>It doesn't seem so much derivative of Dune as of the Book of the New Sun.
>(The prose, in particular, echoes several of Wolfe's key phrases --
>"Urth", "Pancreator", etc.) At first glance, though, it does what it sets
>out to do reasonably well, and has some interesting mechanics (I like how
>the personality stats interact with the psionix system, etc.). I probably
>won't be buying it, just because I don't know who in the world I'd ever
>play it with (I'd want it to be some other New Sun junkies, and I don't
>really know too many of those).
Besides which, you've got GURPS: Book of the New Sun coming soon enough.
:)
--
athol-brose -- cinn...@one.net -- http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/
Fidelity, n: A virtue peculiar to those about to be betrayed.
(Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)
Kevin Mowery
Justin R Achilli (jach...@white-wolf.com) wrote:
: Kevin Mowery wrote:
: > For another, it's not horribly unrealistic. If someone is
: > moderately dextrous, they'll be better at throwing things (for instance)
: > than someone who's clumsy. The clumsy person might train until they're as
: > good as the naturally dextrous person, or even beyond that. But the
: > dextrous person could also train.
: On the other hand, it's not terribly _realistic_, either. It works
: best in situations of sweeping generality, as you've illustrated
: above. I think the GURPS system is a good deal more realistic, basing
: the skill on the governing attribute, but focusing more on the
: performance of that particular aspect (plus, your defaults tend to be
: realistically low).
: I don't think Holistic really wanted a hyper-realistic system,
: however, to get back to the original statement regarding the
: mechanics.
True, GURPS may have one of the more "realistic" (if that term can
be applied to a simulation of learning faculties) skill systems out there.
But of the people I game with (most of whom have some college education),
unless they're playing GURPS full-time (no side-trips into other systems),
the skill system isn't something that sticks with them. I think this says
quite a bit about the quality of education more than the difficulty of
GURPS skills, but there you have it.
: > In situations where default use of a
: > skill would be silly, I just don't allow it (I don't care if you *are* a
: > genius with good hand-eye coordination, you can't guess your way through
: > flying a fighter jet).
: Oh, come on! You don't think that the average television watcher might
: have heard enough about nuclear power plants on the news to prevent
: one's core from reaching meltdown? :)
Well, I *did* see MacGuyver fix a nuclear reactor using a revolver
as a wrench, so I think I could probably do the same thing....
John Powell
In article <56e23b$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
Beakley) wrote:
> nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf) wrote:
>
> >first, it's stealing when you take 90% from one source. when you take 10%
> >from each of 9 sources, it's different. and you don't laugh at someone
> >who steals from Dune (IMHO). *i* like it because of the way that they
> >integrated the concepts. also, it has one thing that i've only seen in
> >one other game (Ars Magica): a Church that is believable and catches my
> >interest. It is neither good nor bad, with just the right mix of idealism
> >and faith with cyncism and opportunism. i am unaware of another SF/far
> >future RPG that actually integrates religion tightly into the setting, and
> >takes it seriously, with all of the consequences, good and bad. (Star Wars
> >has the Force, but that's a fairly idealized "religion.")
>
> Mutant Chronicles, duh. Much of the setting is built around The
> Brotherhood, which is led by The Cardinal (is this sounding
> familiar?), which is dedicated to fighting the Dark Legion but has
> grown drunk with its own power and has grown arrogant and fascist
> (stop me when it sounds too much like Fading Suns)... Oh hell, I'll
> stop myself.
>
> And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
> percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
> overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
>
> Paul
Well, there's "stealing", plagarism, and inspiration. Where does "Dune"
fall? If you haven't noticed, "Dune" is the space opera version of
"Laurence of Arabia" with some enviromental and political themes thrown
in. Personally, I still think the original novel is good sf. (Don't get me
started on sequels - yuck!)
The Church, and in particular the Orange Catholic Bible, served as a
technology brake for the setting, because Herbert realized that otherwise
technology would change humans beyond recognition. The story is basically
set in a "Dark Ages" of the future.
All for now,
John
--
John Powell jo...@jetcity.com ph.206-281-1774
Jet City Online
3214 W. McGraw
Suite 301 H
Seattle, WA 98199
Mary K. Kuhner
It is quite possible to replace Storyteller's Attribute+Skill system
with a Skill modified by Attribute system; our vaguely Storyteller
homebrew does this:
Stat Modifier to target #
1 -3
2 -2
3 -1
4 (average) 0
5 +1
6 +2
7 +3
8 (max) +4
Two things to note about this scheme: it requires base target numbers
to be kept in a fairly narrow range (we use 4-8 for the d10 based
homebrew) or the modifiers will push them into the extreme areas where
the mechanics tend to break down. And one point of stat difference
is a *big* difference in this system, considerably more than one point
of skill. We have just one PC with a stat of 8, in Perception, and
she's a bloodhound--the effects are sufficiently huge that the
character feels preternatural, not just exceptional. The PCs' stats
range, in general, from 3-6 with very few higher or lower. This is
pretty unavoidable given the narrow range intrinsic to the target-
number mechanic.
My beef with the original mechanic (attribute+skill) is that it gives
no flavor difference whatsoever between a skilled character and a
talented one, and because it's very hard to avoid the situation where
being talented (which is more general) is simply superior to being
skilled. (A common problem: GURPS has it in a big way.)
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Paul Beakley
Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article: <56e23b$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
>Beakley) writes:
>> And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
>> percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
>> overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
>Yes, quite. But does anyone know if Frankly Herbert *consciously* stole the
>Shield concept from Charles Harness? (I tend to assume that every other
>such case since was a conscious swipe from one or the other, of course.)
Yes, well, the shields thing was only an illustration. There's a whole
slew of look-and-feel items in Fading Suns that can be drawn directly
to the Book of the New Sun and/or Dune, and game setting items that
have already been done, and done better, in the Mutant Chronicles.
Paul
Paul Beakley
Z-Com Media Consulting & Design
mailto:Pa...@z-com.com
http://www.z-com.com/z-com
602.839.1300 vox
602.756.2469 fax
Eric Tolle
Greg Benage <gbe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>John R. Snead wrote:
>
>> Also, other
>> than a single wormhole it's all pretty hard SF, no anti-gravity or similar
>While I certainly don't want to revive the "Is Blue Planet hard SF"
>debate (though it _has_ firmed up a bit in response to that debate), I'm
Good...and it was a fun debateas well *sigh*. We need more debates
other then 'so-and-so system is evil'.
>curious--what characteristics of a traversable wormhole, based on recent
>theoretical work on the subject, do you feel violate the hard SF genre?
Well, for the hardes of the hard SF fans, FTL travel in itself does
not belong in the hard SF genre. Aparently they are really into this
causality thing that FTL violates in any context...
Eric Tolle unde...@rain.org
"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the
terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's
crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Greg Benage
Eric Tolle wrote:
>
> Greg Benage <gbe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >John R. Snead wrote:
>
> >
> >> Also, other
> >> than a single wormhole it's all pretty hard SF, no anti-gravity or similar
>
> >While I certainly don't want to revive the "Is Blue Planet hard SF"
> >debate (though it _has_ firmed up a bit in response to that debate), I'm
>
> Good...and it was a fun debateas well *sigh*. We need more debates
> other then 'so-and-so system is evil'.
Maybe we can revive it when the book comes out in a couple months... :)
> >curious--what characteristics of a traversable wormhole, based on recent
> >theoretical work on the subject, do you feel violate the hard SF genre?
>
> Well, for the hardes of the hard SF fans, FTL travel in itself does
> not belong in the hard SF genre. Aparently they are really into this
> causality thing that FTL violates in any context...
Fair enough...I was under the impression that a traversable wormhole
does not necessarily entail gross violations of causality. Indeed, the
work done by Kip Thorne and Matt Visser at Caltech was originally
presented as an exercise for exploring ways that causality might be
protected, given that our current understanding of physics seems to
allow for wormholes. Various physicists have offered different
approaches to this issue, including Hawking's Causality Protection
Conjecture.
But I really don't want to revive the debate. I'll shut up now. ;)
> Eric Tolle unde...@rain.org
>
> "An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the
> terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's
> crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
--
Mark Hughes
Paul F. Strack <pfst...@math.unc.edu> spake:
>Since then, I've seen a number of advantages in
>the system, and have gotten rather fond of it.
Naturally, all system discussions are personal opinion, but I just haven't
seen any good parts in it (other than the world books, which work just fine
with other games) that weren't also present in other games, and the drawbacks
vastly outweighed what was there.
>You are quite correct here. This was the original reason why *I* was
>turned off on GURPS. There is a distinct advantage to having high
>attributes and very few points in skills when you are creating a
>character.
Yes. Unfortunately, many character conceptions are based on being skilled,
not just having natural talent. GURPS represents those characters very
poorly, because they're essentially incompetent.
>The extremely high cost of attributes makes it prohibitive to increase
>them during play, and people spends points on skills instead, making
>characters more and more rounded as the game goes on.
This is true of almost every skill-based system. I can't think of one
offhand that made stats easier to improve...
>GURPS isn't as flexible as Champions, but it isn't meant to be. GURPS
>and Champions are very different games, despite their superficial
>similarities. Champions is generalized and open ended, while GURPS is
>voluminous and specific.
GURPS is essentially TFT with a few ideas borrowed badly from HERO...
Whether that was intentional or not (and it does appear to be so), that
description does fit well.
However, this isn't really about HERO vs. GURPS, though that's a nice
classic debate. It's more just "GURPS vs. a genre-specific game".
>Champions will let you do anything, but the
>genres that GURPS cover tend to be more closely tailored, and "fit"
>better, IMHO. I thing that GURPS does most genres better than Champions,
>including cyberpunk, modern espionage, fantasy, space, etc. The one
>exception is superheroes, where Champions reigns supreme.
This is one area I greatly disagree with. IMO, GURPS only represents gritty
settings with low-powered or no magic (and only in two specific magical
styles, unless you kluge yet another one on and hope you made something
vaguely balanced, something doable in any system), with everything remaining
on human character scale, accurately and in a single system. That means at
best it handles low fantasy and realistic historical settings tolerably. In
my experience it falls down badly when confronted with even modern and
near-future settings, let alone in SF or if it attempts anything heroic.
IMO, those genres are done better by the ICE systems, Chaosium's BRP, the
late and occasionally-lamented Mythus, and others.
HERO doesn't do all or even most settings well. It's optimized for heroic
genres with a wide range of powers. It's easy to make new genre-specific
magic/psionic systems in, and scales very well, but even at its grittiest,
with all of the reality switches on, it's still somewhat gentle on the
characters (both in combat and skill use).
There is not yet a universal system (other than freeform, and any genreness
in those is the product of the GM), but there are dozens of systems, optimized
for their particular genre... I don't think there *CAN* be a universal
system, and SJ's chuztpah in calling it GURPS is just astounding to me.
>I don't find GURPS combat all that difficult or time consuming. Champions
>still wins out easily for the longest combats (and for a superhero game,
>that's a *good* thing). I run GURPS for a group with 8 people, have two
>or three combats per session, and still have plenty of time for other
>things. Combats rarely run longer than an hour.
I found the second-by-second combat VERY tedious. Even HERO, the runner-up
for slowest combat, scrunches up enough into each action to make it play
faster with as many or more combatants than GURPS. They're both pretty bad on
that front, though. There are much faster systems... There is more to gaming
than just HERO and GURPS.
>The main strength of GURPS is that it has so many rules. GURPS has rules
>that cover almost every situation that arises in your average gaming
>session. Furthermore, most of these individual rules are fairly well
>thought out. I have to work pretty hard to find a rule that allows
>something that seems completely unrealistic
I have to work pretty hard to find a rule in that morass of inconsistent
mechanics, spread through a half-dozen books. If I can't find a rule almost
immediately, without playing the "which book is THAT in?" meta-game, I give up
and fudge, which rather defeats the point of those many accurate rules.
>(e.g. babies being able to
>throw footballs 20 yards in Champions).
Babies have STR -25 or so, IIRC (wasn't that listed in Champs III? I can't
find it in my indexless 4th Ed almost immediately (yes, I'm unhappy with HERO
quite often, too) and can't find my 3rd Ed stuff), and thus can throw a
football 0", if that. Murphy's Rules were often based on misunderstandings
like that. Even aside from that, harsh realism is deliberately sacrificed in
HERO for dramatic ability. Complaining that it's heroic is rather silly...
>Of course, the bulk of rules is also GURPS's main weakness.
I wouldn't really say that. The flaws in character creation and
representation still annoy me more than the AD&D-like collection of rules,
but it *IS* refreshing to see a GURPS player who doesn't think it's divine
revelation.
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"In headlines today, the dreaded killfile virus spread across the country
adding aol.com to people's usenet kill files everywhere. The programmer of
the virus still remains anonymous, but has been nominated several times for
a Nobel peace prize." -Mark Atkinson
David G. Bell
In article <441193...@philm.demon.co.uk>
Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk "Philip Masters" writes:
> In article: <56e23b$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
> Beakley) writes:
> > And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
> > percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
> > overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
>
> Yes, quite. But does anyone know if Frankly Herbert *consciously* stole the
> Shield concept from Charles Harness? (I tend to assume that every other
> such case since was a conscious swipe from one or the other, of course.)
E. E. "Doc" Smith, surely? All those Valerian Patrolmen with space
axes, because the resistance of a force shield depended on the velocity
of the projectile.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Dan Davenport
Paul Beakley wrote:
>
> "S.F. Eley" <sfe...@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I realize it's just personal opinion, but I *really* dislike the way
> >White Wolf writes its games. I think the reason I'm so upset about
> >Fading Suns is because I got a White Wolf game with a Holistic Designs
> >logo on it, when I was really expecting.. Well, I guess a Holistic
> >Designs game.
>
> although I might have to give system a solid 30 percent). I am quite
> certain that everyone at Holistic is fully capable of designing an
> original game. There's no shortage of talent there. It's just too bad
> they didn't stretch their wings a little further after leaving the
> nest.
>
> Paul
Holistic didn't rip off WW writers -- they _are_ WW writers! (Former,
that is.)
At any rate, it's silly to complain about how much of an rpg setting is
"stolen". How many people complain about how many fantasy games rip off
Tolkien? Or how many cyberpunk settings rip off Gibson? Yes, Fading Suns
is derivative of many different sources, but few rpgs are not. I can't
help thinking that people are latching on to the whole personal defense
sheild idea and saying "Aha! Thievery most foul!"
At one point, someone had to come up with the idea of "warp drive". Does
this mean that everyone who uses this idea is "ripping someone off?"
My point is that while Fading Suns draws from many sources, I feel that
the setting as a whole is rather new and refreshing: a kind of Ars
Magica in space.
Just an opinion.
Mark Hughes
Steven Anderson <an...@lafn.org> spake:
> Mostly because a) this thread's topic is Space-rpg and your comments
>there had little relevancy to Space Roleplaying games
Other than GURPS being a good or bad choice for various SF genres.
>Also, I'm trying recall
>those comments and can't.
>> 12 1/2-13, depending on the shoe. Hey, I'm 6'3"...
>>
> Interesting coincidences: Same height and where in God's name do you
>find any 12 1/2 sized shoes? Stores I frequent have 12 or 13 only.
Sports clothes stores or special-order.
Paul Beakley
Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
>Holistic didn't rip off WW writers -- they _are_ WW writers! (Former,
>that is.)
But the writers didn't create their former employers' system.
>At any rate, it's silly to complain about how much of an rpg setting is
>"stolen". How many people complain about how many fantasy games rip off
>Tolkien? Or how many cyberpunk settings rip off Gibson? Yes, Fading Suns
>is derivative of many different sources, but few rpgs are not. I can't
>help thinking that people are latching on to the whole personal defense
>sheild idea and saying "Aha! Thievery most foul!"
There's a difference between genre conventions and specific setting
details. Warp drive is a sci fi convention; dilithium crystals that
make the drives work a particular way is a Star Trek (tm) setting
specific detail, for example. And calling it, um, DiTrithigum isn't
good enough.
>My point is that while Fading Suns draws from many sources, I feel that
>the setting as a whole is rather new and refreshing: a kind of Ars
>Magica in space.
Try looking around at what else has been out there longer and you'll
find out just how stale Fading Suns is (as stale as Ars Magica in
space, actually -- thanks for the example).
Kevin Mowery
: pop.mindspring.com> <56fkc2$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
: <328D21...@flash.net> <56kr0i$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
Distribution:
Paul Beakley (Pa...@z-com.com) wrote:
: Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
: >Holistic didn't rip off WW writers -- they _are_ WW writers! (Former,
: >that is.)
: But the writers didn't create their former employers' system.
And FS doesn't use the Storyteller system. It has some of the
same features. Attribute + Skill resolution (which is common to so many
games that it's not even worth mentioning) and Number of Successes (which
was actually in Shadowrun long before the Storyteller system and which
appears in other games in a less elegant form--the old colored chart that
TSR experimented with in a number of relatively mediocre games was nothing
more than a method of determining how well someone succeeded by seeing how
much they made their roll by).
Kevin Mowery
Iron Czar (iron...@erienet.net) wrote:
: In rec.games.frp.misc, hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Hughes)
: spoke thusly:
: > What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
: >part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
: >points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
: >advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
: >Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
: >be good for your self-esteem...
: It's possible to min-max to some extent in *any* system in which the
: player has a good deal of control over his or her character. Given
: the alternative--a totally random character creation system, in which
: the *lucky* players has an advantage, I'll take GURPS anyday. The Hero
: System is no better in this regard.
Anyone remember Champions II (when it was available in three
separate rulebooks)? There were little sidebar thingies which gave
explicit instructions on how to minimax the system (never buy any number
in a stat ending in 2 or 7, since it'll hurt you on figured attributes--a
number ending in 3 or 8 will round off better when divided by 5).
Dan Davenport
Michael T. Richter wrote:
> The problem with straight A+S systems is that I, the GM, have to intervene
> far too often to keep results within the realm of the reasonable and
> plausible. They also have a tendency to be easily minimaxed (like I
> pointed out in my review of Traveller 0.5, for instance).
>
> This is not to say that I hate A+S systems: by no means is this the case.
> I just think that they are somewhat problematical.
>
other systems in that they reflect natural apptitude combined with
learned skill.
While Call of Cthulu is one of my favorite games, I find the
relationship between attributes and skills in the game rather strange. A
starting character could have the maximum human dexterity, yet only have
a 5% chance of hitting someone with a sword -- the same chance as the
clumsiest person on earth. Yet, somehow, dexterity DOES affect dodging
ability.
I think Runequest might be a happy medium here: attributes affect base
ability, but not to the degree that they do in straight A+S systems.
Iron Czar
> GURPS is a fatally flawed system (the too-limited number of stats and their
>extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come out
>identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's, which
>it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system takes
>FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go on...)
I'm always put on alert when someone says "this [system, game, etc] is
fatally flawed..." Bad experience from the old days on CompuServe.
> What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
>part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
>points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
>advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
>Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
>be good for your self-esteem...
It's possible to min-max to some extent in *any* system in which the
player has a good deal of control over his or her character. Given
the alternative--a totally random character creation system, in which
the *lucky* players has an advantage, I'll take GURPS anyday. The Hero
System is no better in this regard.
> The massive number of advantages & disads is part of my complaint about
>having all of the flaws of Hero without the flexibility. I've no objection to
>games borrowing from other games, but they should at least have the decency to
>improve on their parents.
Frankly, I can't see the point you're trying to make here. How do
more advantages/disadvantages = less flexibility?
> I noticed you didn't address my complaint about the combat system or mention
>any strong points of GURPS...
I'll address it--you're way off base. The advanced combat system is
pretty intricate, but basic combat is reasonably swift and clean. I
expect you had a bad experience with some group that fumbled their way
through a session or two... please correct me if I'm wrong.
> I deeply enjoyed The Fantasy Trip, and had hopes that GURPS would turn out
>to be a good full RPG[1] based on it. Imagine my shock and horror when I
>found how utterly bloated and defective it was, and that it broke no new
>ground, just retreaded other games incompetently...
Again, I think you're off base here. The number of GURPS suppliments
that "break new ground" is quite large. Examples include GURPS Time
Travel, Voodoo, Vehicles, Alternate Earths, Ice Age, and probably a
number of others I won't bother to list.
If, however, you mean *mechanically,* then, you're probably right, to
a certain extent. GURPS relies on a number of older systems for
mechanical inspiration. The real question is, does GURPS *improve* on
those mechanics? *I* think it does in many cases, but YMMV.
>It's not a matter of subconsciously wanting it to fail, it's that it *DOES* stink
>[2] and I'm willing to say so.
In translation: "I don't like GURPS, so nobody else should like it
either."
**********
Iron Czar
iron...@erienet.net
**********
Check out the Czar's shiny new homepage at:
http://erienet.net/~ironczar
Featuring the World of Ytherra
chaos...@aol.com
> It's possible to min-max to some extent in *any* system in which the
> player has a good deal of control over his or her character.
Which is exactly why the concept that point-based systems are balanced is
a gaming myth. Such systems can hint at game balance, but they usually
break-down fairly quickly in this regard. We could say that any system
which relies on point-balancing to achieve game balance are fatally
flawed.
Game balance comes from the players and the GM themselves, and is not a
function of the rules. Game balance is achieved through the interaction
of the characters with the storyline, making sure that everyone shares the
spotlight (or at least trades it off) and everyone has an equal role to
play in the scenario.
-- daPups
russell wallace
In <56ip6t$d...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Pa...@z-com.com (Paul Beakley) writes:
>Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article: <56e23b$m...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Pa...@z-com.com (Paul
>>Beakley) writes:
>>> And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
>>> percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
>>> overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
>>Yes, quite. But does anyone know if Frankly Herbert *consciously* stole the
>>Shield concept from Charles Harness? (I tend to assume that every other
>>such case since was a conscious swipe from one or the other, of course.)
IMO, it's such a simple and obvious idea it's probably been invented
independently half a dozen times. (Oh, the Langston Field from 'A Mote
in God's Eye' for another example.)
>Yes, well, the shields thing was only an illustration. There's a whole
>slew of look-and-feel items in Fading Suns that can be drawn directly
>to the Book of the New Sun and/or Dune, and game setting items that
>have already been done, and done better, in the Mutant Chronicles.
I don't know about the other two (though you're hardly suggesting that
mutants originated with the Mutant Chronicles) but Dune drew heavily on
other sources.
--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwal...@tcd.ie
John Wilson
chaos...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Game balance comes from the players and the GM themselves, and is not a
> function of the rules. Game balance is achieved through the interaction
> of the characters with the storyline, making sure that everyone shares the
> spotlight (or at least trades it off) and everyone has an equal role to
> play in the scenario.
John
russell wallace
> This is one area I greatly disagree with. IMO, GURPS only represents gritty
>settings with low-powered or no magic (and only in two specific magical
>styles, unless you kluge yet another one on and hope you made something
>vaguely balanced, something doable in any system), with everything remaining
>on human character scale, accurately and in a single system. That means at
>best it handles low fantasy and realistic historical settings tolerably. In
>my experience it falls down badly when confronted with even modern and
>near-future settings, let alone in SF or if it attempts anything heroic.
I found GURPS worked fine in heroic fantasy and sf; that said, I never
actually used either its magic system or sf material (I just implemented
my own in both cases). I'll agree if you want magic to be able to do
anything of much interest, the GURPS magic system won't get you very far
as it stands. GURPS Ultra-Tech looked usable enough, from one
read-through, if one didn't mind the ghastly lack of consistency,
coherence or scientific realism. (All of this IMO, obviously.)
> There is not yet a universal system (other than freeform, and any genreness
>in those is the product of the GM), but there are dozens of systems, optimized
>for their particular genre... I don't think there *CAN* be a universal
>system, and SJ's chuztpah in calling it GURPS is just astounding to me.
Hmm. I find most genre-specific systems don't do the genre any better
than a universal system would, it's just that the designers felt
(probably correctly) that the product would sell better as a "batteries
included" package.
>>I don't find GURPS combat all that difficult or time consuming. Champions
>>still wins out easily for the longest combats (and for a superhero game,
>>that's a *good* thing). I run GURPS for a group with 8 people, have two
>>or three combats per session, and still have plenty of time for other
>>things. Combats rarely run longer than an hour.
I threw out most of the combat system (and that's the "basic" one);
hour-long combats are something I find completely unacceptable.
> I found the second-by-second combat VERY tedious. Even HERO, the runner-up
>for slowest combat, scrunches up enough into each action to make it play
>faster with as many or more combatants than GURPS. They're both pretty bad on
>that front, though. There are much faster systems... There is more to gaming
>than just HERO and GURPS.
Agreed.
>>The main strength of GURPS is that it has so many rules. GURPS has rules
>>that cover almost every situation that arises in your average gaming
>>session. Furthermore, most of these individual rules are fairly well
>>thought out. I have to work pretty hard to find a rule that allows
>>something that seems completely unrealistic
> I have to work pretty hard to find a rule in that morass of inconsistent
>mechanics, spread through a half-dozen books. If I can't find a rule almost
>immediately, without playing the "which book is THAT in?" meta-game, I give up
>and fudge, which rather defeats the point of those many accurate rules.
I agree. I am *not* willing to stop play to search for a rule. If I
don't know what the rule is, or have it immediately to hand, I'll just
make a decision and move on.
In fact, I found GURPS worked rather well, but mainly after extensive
trimming. I have a list somewhere of all the stuff I trimmed, if anyone
wants it.
(Note that my preference is for a rules-light system, and I don't mind
making up my own material to fill in the gaps. Someone with different
preferences would have to either live with what I see as GURPS'
disadvantages or look for a different system.)
verkuilen john v
Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> writes:
>Michael T. Richter wrote:
>> The problem with straight A+S systems is that I, the GM, have to intervene
>> far too often to keep results within the realm of the reasonable and
>> plausible. They also have a tendency to be easily minimaxed (like I
>> pointed out in my review of Traveller 0.5, for instance).
>>
>> This is not to say that I hate A+S systems: by no means is this the case.
>> I just think that they are somewhat problematical.
>>
>Actually, I would argue that A+S systems are less problematical than
>other systems in that they reflect natural apptitude combined with
>learned skill.
In our Storyteller games, to model this problem we use the following rule:
If you don't have any dots in a Talent, the roll is unmodified. If you don't
have any dots in a Skill, the roll is +2 difficulty. If you don't have any
dots in a Knowledge, you can't roll at all. Anything fairly technical (e.g.,
piloting a plane) is considered a Knowledge.
So, if you haven't studied fist fighting (that is, have no dots in Brawl, which
is a Talent), but are fairly quick you still stand a decent chance of punching
someone. However, if you picked up a sword (which requires Melee, a Skill)
you would have +2 difficulty. If you wanted to fire a cannon (which requires
Heavy Weapons, a Knowledge), you'd be out of luck.
I don't know if this is an official rule or just a house rule for our group, but
this and a bit of common sense seem to work pretty well for us. I do a similar
thing with FS.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
Alex Williams
In article <56i9bb$s...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Mary K. Kuhner <mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu> wrote:
>My beef with the original mechanic (attribute+skill) is that it gives
>no flavor difference whatsoever between a skilled character and a
>talented one, and because it's very hard to avoid the situation where
>being talented (which is more general) is simply superior to being
>skilled. (A common problem: GURPS has it in a big way.)
Actually, I was thinking of modifying the ST mechanics into something
more ARS MAGICA/Interlock-ish by taking stats from -3 to +3 at the
extremes and skills running 1 - 10 with competency being 5, resolution
being done with Stat+Skill+1d10 vs a target number. An Average Joe
(Applicable Stat: 0 + Skill: 3) on an average roll (5) will beat an 8
50% of the time, so EASY tasks should T# around 5. Highly skilled
characters thus become very impressive but basic inclination toward
the usage for that skill is useful.
One of the things that bug me about the ST mystical abilities is the
fact that you get different effects per level (*dot*). Under this
mod, you'd require a certain level of effect (ie. beat the T# by a set
amount) to get off the various effects. Conceptually, that feels like
a far better system.
--
Alexander Williams {zan...@photobooks.com ||Member: Evil Geniuses
tha...@alf.dec.com} ||For a Better Tomorrow
============================================// => Charter Member <=
David Perrey
On 18 Nov 1996, verkuilen john v wrote:
> If you don't have any dots in a Talent, the roll is unmodified. If you don't
> have any dots in a Skill, the roll is +2 difficulty. If you don't have any
> dots in a Knowledge, you can't roll at all. Anything fairly technical (e.g.,
> piloting a plane) is considered a Knowledge.
>
This is in the rulebooks already. I think it often gets forgotten
though.
Dave Perrey "We gladly feast on those that would
cmj...@prism.gatech.edu subdue us." Addams Family motto
Mary K. Kuhner
>One of the things that bug me about the ST mystical abilities is the
>fact that you get different effects per level (*dot*). Under this
>mod, you'd require a certain level of effect (ie. beat the T# by a set
>amount) to get off the various effects. Conceptually, that feels like
>a far better system.
Yow, what a problem we're having with abbreviations, between Fading
Suns, Feng Shui, Star Trek and Storyteller....
Your suggestion has a danger which I've encountered in various systems
in the past. Having a character who can only do X on a lucky roll
is *not* the same as having a character who can't do X at all; in
particular, it means that if the PC has unlimited opportunities to
try over and over she *can* do X. Some of the Vampire abilities
may not be things you want a beginner to do, even occasionally;
especially if you think not only in terms of PCs but also about the
whole world of NPCs out there.
I recall playtesting someone's homebrew, and noting that magicians
could do a very lethal final strike, powerful enough that even a
beginning magician could wipe out a dozen experienced characters. I
told the designer this was unbalancing; he responded that it wasn't,
since it was a final strike and would happen only in extreme
circumstances. Of course, he wouldn't have been able to take this
position if he'd been thinking about NPC mages. How many mages
does an adventuring party expect to defeat in their lifetime?
One of the game design metarules that my group lives by (I don't know
who first formulated it) is this: Making something difficult is not
a substitute for making it impossible. That doesn't mean it's always
wrong to control something by making it difficult, but it does mean
you need to be rather careful.
In the specific Storyteller example, my experience with the system
suggests that the rule you propose will be a bit awkward. A number
of dice that reliably lets you get, say, the 2 successes to use your
easy power will rather often give you the 4 successes to use a much
more powerful power. If you cut the dice low enough to rule out 4
successes the 2-success power won't work very reliably at all. So
either characters feel incompetant with their "easy" powers or they
have a pretty good shot at using "hard" powers. This is a hard-to-
avoid consequence of the mechanics. (It's less true at very low
target numbers, like 2 or maybe 3, but then you almost might as well
go back to the book system since success/failure will be determined
almost solely by the number of dice rolled, rather than the numbers
on them.)
Take this with a grain of salt, though. We play a homebrew loosely
based on Storyteller, but I'm not all that familiar with the parent
system.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
verkuilen john v
David Perrey <cmj...@acmex.gatech.edu> writes:
>On 18 Nov 1996, verkuilen john v wrote:
>> If you don't have any dots in a Talent, the roll is unmodified. If you don't
>> have any dots in a Skill, the roll is +2 difficulty. If you don't have any
>> dots in a Knowledge, you can't roll at all. Anything fairly technical (e.g.,
>> piloting a plane) is considered a Knowledge.
>>
> This is in the rulebooks already. I think it often gets forgotten
>though.
I thought it was but didn't have the book around to check.
Steven Anderson
In a previous article, hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Hughes) says:
>Steven Anderson <an...@lafn.org> spake:
>> Mostly because a) this thread's topic is Space-rpg and your comments
>>there had little relevancy to Space Roleplaying games
>
> Other than GURPS being a good or bad choice for various SF genres.
>
>>Also, I'm trying recall
>>those comments and can't.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/
Unfortunately, you can't go to dejanews from this newsreader without
either sending what you have written or cancelling it and losing all
existing information, so I had to rely on memory.
--
`I already HAVE a dirty name for the Easter Rabbit!"
Bugs Bunny
woodelf
In article <01bbd2e7$d48847c0$8511f8ce@retrotech>, "Michael T. Richter"
<m...@igs.net> wrote:
> Kevin Mowery <kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote:
> > At any rate, I've never had a single problem with Attribute +
> > Skill gaming. It's an easy system for people to understand, for one
> > thing. For another, it's not horribly unrealistic. If someone is
> > moderately dextrous, they'll be better at throwing things (for instance)
> > than someone who's clumsy. The clumsy person might train until they're
> as
> > good as the naturally dextrous person, or even beyond that. But the
> > dextrous person could also train. In situations where default use of a
> > skill would be silly, I just don't allow it (I don't care if you *are* a
> > genius with good hand-eye coordination, you can't guess your way through
> > flying a fighter jet).
>
> Actually you hit my major objection to Attribute+Skill right on the head.
> It isn't a good model for things. Systems like CORPS and Timelords, where
> attributes provide a minimal base for things, are much better in my
> opinion.
>
> The problem with straight A+S systems is that I, the GM, have to intervene
> far too often to keep results within the realm of the reasonable and
> plausible. They also have a tendency to be easily minimaxed (like I
> pointed out in my review of Traveller 0.5, for instance).
>
> This is not to say that I hate A+S systems: by no means is this the case.
> I just think that they are somewhat problematical.
here's a thought i had for a solution: what if the ranges are different.
say, abilities up to 100 and attributes up to 20. you add them and make a
percentile roll. that way, raw talent (high attribute) can give you a
reasonable chance (up to 1-in-5), but will never be a complete substitute
for practice. at the same time, one's attributes do have a noticable
impact on the use of abilities. (i've never liked systems that go to the
other extreme: the clod is as good as the acrobat if their skill level is
the same.) so you're not automatically SOL if you don't know the thing
(except for obvious exceptions: dexterity and quick-learning don't quite
cut it on the operating table), but you're also not getting a free ride by
simply pumping your attributes.
what do peole think?
woodelf
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@yar.cs.wisc.edu
http://dax.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
Green must fight Purple. Purple must fight Green. Is only way.
--Green Drazi
Just my luck, I get stuck with a race that only speaks in macros.
--Ivanova
John O'Doherty
>Mutant Chronicles, duh. Much of the setting is built around The
>Brotherhood, which is led by The Cardinal (is this sounding
>familiar?), which is dedicated to fighting the Dark Legion but has
>grown drunk with its own power and has grown arrogant and fascist
>(stop me when it sounds too much like Fading Suns)... Oh hell, I'll
>stop myself.
>And stealing is stealing, BTW, whether it's 10 percent (an obvious 10
>percent at that: power shields that you have to move through slowly to
>overcome? Give me a break) or 90 percent.
"Poor artists copy. Great artists steal" - Picasso.
There is no such thing as a new idea, but an expression of an idea. So
they steal. So does every other game/book/comic/film you've ever seen.
Its a question of how well they use that material.
-Tadhg
-exercising his "Nick Ideas" skill (up to 20 %!!)
--
John O'Doherty
In <nbarmore-131...@f183-052.net.wisc.edu> nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf) writes:
>first, it's stealing when you take 90% from one source. when you take 10%
>from each of 9 sources, it's different. and you don't laugh at someone
>who steals from Dune (IMHO). *i* like it because of the way that they
>integrated the concepts. also, it has one thing that i've only seen in
>one other game (Ars Magica): a Church that is believable and catches my
>interest. It is neither good nor bad, with just the right mix of idealism
>and faith with cyncism and opportunism. i am unaware of another SF/far
>future RPG that actually integrates religion tightly into the setting, and
>takes it seriously, with all of the consequences, good and bad. (Star Wars
>has the Force, but that's a fairly idealized "religion.")
Well, its not exactly a roleplaing setting, but Warhammer 40K does,
IMHo, the finest gothic religious society I've ever seen. It is pure
parody that works REALLY well. It always should have been a roleplaying
setting, you know.
James Wallis? Would you be able to get to doi the WH40K rpg?
Actually, as I think of it, someone tried to produce a set of rules
for playing WH40K rpg in Dragon a _long_ time ago.
i-Tadhg
-Reminiscence Inc.
-"We will nostalgise (tm) it for you"
--
Marcus Rowland
Michael Richter commented
> The "attributes+skills" system has a long, ignoble tradition actually.
> Off
> my current gaming shelf, here are the games which use this kind of
> mechanism to one degree or another: Masterbook, Traveller: The New Era,
> Immortal, Epiphany, Macho Women with Guns, Dark Conspiracy, Kult, Star
> Wars, Mekton Zeta, Night Life, A.C.E. Agents. Several of these predate
> any
> WW game or are descended from games which predate any WW game.
>
> Who ripped off whom, then?
Add to this list Forgotten Futures; I wrote the first version of the
rules at least a year before I'd seen Vampire. It's not surprising that
this mechanism is widely used, because it is a SIMPLE way to reflect the
fact that some people are naturally good at things, others need lots of
training.
Marcus L. Rowland
mrow...@cix.compulink.co.uk
"Quantum theory suggests that every event creates a new universe.
DC seem to think that every one of them contains bloody Batman."
Anon critic.
Graham Wills
woodelf wrote:
>
> > The problem with straight A+S systems is that I, the GM, have to intervene
> > far too often to keep results within the realm of the reasonable and
> > plausible. They also have a tendency to be easily minimaxed (like I
> > pointed out in my review of Traveller 0.5, for instance).
> >
> > This is not to say that I hate A+S systems: by no means is this the case.
> > I just think that they are somewhat problematical.
>
> here's a thought i had for a solution: what if the ranges are different.
> say, abilities up to 100 and attributes up to 20. you add them and make a
> percentile roll. that way, raw talent (high attribute) can give you a
> reasonable chance (up to 1-in-5), but will never be a complete substitute
> for practice. at the same time, one's attributes do have a noticable
> impact on the use of abilities. (i've never liked systems that go to the
> other extreme: the clod is as good as the acrobat if their skill level is
> the same.) so you're not automatically SOL if you don't know the thing
> (except for obvious exceptions: dexterity and quick-learning don't quite
> cut it on the operating table), but you're also not getting a free ride by
> simply pumping your attributes.
>
> what do peole think?
You have, more or less just described the RoleMaster/MERP/SpaceMaster
system, which has the added advantage that things you have trained in
since you were very young are also easier for you.
Thus you can have a thief who, by talent and training, is quite good at
picking locks, but has never relly developed it and is in fact worse
than a mercenary who has no natural ability or training, but has plugged
away to become quite good. Given a trap to disarm, the thief will be
able to do an OK job due to her training and talent, but the merc will
be SOL.
The system works nicely. In my current campaign (mid level), the
'average often-used skill' level is about 70, with a max of 20 of that
from talent and sometimes 5-10 from training. For the excellent skills,
its 10 training, 20-30 talent and 70ish for skills. Its very hard to
move skills up once you get to the 70 barrier - representing highly
skilled people. From then on, differences are in talent or training in
the large.
-Graham
--
Graham Wills Data Visualization group, Lucent
Technologies
gwi...@research.bell-labs.com Bell Laboratories, Indian Hill,
Naperville IL
Graham Wills
russell wallace wrote:
> I found GURPS worked fine in heroic fantasy and sf
BUT:
> I never actually used either its magic system or sf material
> I'll agree if you want magic to be able to do
> anything of much interest, the GURPS magic system won't get you very far
> GURPS Ultra-Tech looked usable enough, from one
> read-through, if one didn't mind the ghastly lack of consistency,
> coherence or scientific realism. (All of this IMO, obviously.)
> I threw out most of the combat system (and that's the "basic" one);
> I am *not* willing to stop play to search for a rule. If I
> don't know what the rule is, or have it immediately to hand, I'll just
> make a decision and move on.
>
> In fact, I found GURPS worked rather well, but mainly after extensive
> trimming.
But basically, apart from a bad magic system and tech info, useless
combat system, inability to find general rules and requiring extensive
trimming, you like it?
Graham Wills
Iron Czar wrote:
>
> > GURPS is a fatally flawed system (the too-limited number of stats and their
> >extreme usefulness for min-maxing makes all competent characters come out
> >identical; the disad system manages to take all of the flaws of Hero's, which
> >it's an imitation of, without any of the flexibility; the combat system takes
> >FAR too long to run - longer than any game I've ever played; I could go on...)
>
> I'm always put on alert when someone says "this [system, game, etc] is
> fatally flawed..." Bad experience from the old days on CompuServe.
Tend to agree. GURPS is flawed, but not fatally. The stats limitedness
and overwhelming presence makes it unsuitable for SF. The ads/disads is
unremarkable and hardly cause for any comment.
> > What I was referring to (I thought quite clearly, since I mentioned it as
> >part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
> >points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
> >advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
> >Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the party can't
> >be good for your self-esteem...
>
> It's possible to min-max to some extent in *any* system in which the
> player has a good deal of control over his or her character. Given
> the alternative--a totally random character creation system, in which
> the *lucky* players has an advantage, I'll take GURPS anyday. The Hero
> System is no better in this regard.
The problem in GURPS is that there are too few stats. Here's a sample of
what I mean. I wanted to create an *incredibly* good surgeon, which I
did by giving him very high dex and all sorts of concentration bonuses
etc. I also dropped a couple of points into shooting and he became
instantly the best marksman in the party. Mainly due to high dex.
Now in any *sensible* system there would be a way to disentangle ability
to shoot things and ability to operate upon. But in GURPS SF there are
essentially two stats: DEX and INT. Strength is completely useless in a
high tech SF world unless you use really contrived plots and the other
stat is not 1/3 as useful as the other two. It's not just a case of
mini-maxing, it's just that with so few stats, if you want to be
*excellent* at a few things, you end being *really good* at a lot of
others.
> I'll address it--you're way off base. The advanced combat system is
> pretty intricate, but basic combat is reasonably swift and clean.
It's OK. As you point out, it's reasonable.
I haven't tried GURPS in many settings, but I'll be using SpaceMaster
for SF from now on. GURPS I'll reserve for Bunnies and Burrows (where
the stats and skills *are* reasonably balanced).
J. Hunter Johnson
In article <32922F...@research.att.com>,
Graham Wills <gwi...@research.att.com> wrote:
> The problem in GURPS is that there are too few stats. Here's a
> sample of what I mean. I wanted to create an *incredibly* good
> surgeon, which I did by giving him very high dex and all sorts of
> concentration bonuses etc. I also dropped a couple of points into
> shooting and he became instantly the best marksman in the
> party. Mainly due to high dex.
> Now in any *sensible* system there would be a way to disentangle
> ability to shoot things and ability to operate upon. But in GURPS SF
> there are essentially two stats: DEX and INT. Strength is completely
> useless in a high tech SF world unless you use really contrived
> plots and the other stat is not 1/3 as useful as the other two. It's
> not just a case of mini-maxing, it's just that with so few stats, if
> you want to be *excellent* at a few things, you end being *really
> good* at a lot of others.
If I forego arguing whether GURPS SF has only two stats, the ability
to shoot things and the ability to operate are still disentagled.
The first is based on DX and one of Guns/Gunner/Beam Weapons skill
(with a +1/+2 possible based on IQ), while the second is based on IQ
and Surgery (or default from another IQ-based) skill.
Your example seems to depend on Surgery being a Physical skill in
GURPS, which it isn't.
Also, if what you want is an *incredibly* good surgeon, it is more
effective to shove more points into Surgery than into IQ (4 points per
level vs. 25 points per level at the higher echelons).
Hunter
-- /\
J. Hunter Johnson / \ jhun...@io.com, sjg-e...@io.com
GURPS Bibliographer / () \ http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/gurps/bib.html
& Errata Coordinator /______\ http://www.io.com/sjgames/errata/gurps/
"Exotic Dancer Barbie does not bump or grind by herself."
Thomas Biskup
Iron Czar <iron...@erienet.net> wrote:
> In rec.games.frp.misc, hugh...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Hughes)
> spoke thusly:
> >part of the complaint about stats), was that the stats (and the balance of
> >points between stats and skills) have optimal values, and there's a MASSIVE
> >advantage to doing some min-maxing. I don't care how deeply into being Real
> >Roleplayer[0] you are, being half as competent as the rest of the
> >party can't
> >be good for your self-esteem...
> It's possible to min-max to some extent in *any* system in which the
> player has a good deal of control over his or her character.
But it's a lot easier in GURPS than in most other systems. The
influence of attributes on skills is just so stupidly high, that a
well-rounded character with many skills based on normal point-levels
almost *has* to optimize his attributes. In HERO this is a lot more
difficult. Yes, there you can min-max with the powers, but for
"normal" games there is not as much potential and as much to gain as
in GURPS.
> > The massive number of advantages & disads is part of my complaint about
> >having all of the flaws of Hero without the flexibility. I've no
> >objection to
> >games borrowing from other games, but they should at least have the
> > decency to
> >improve on their parents.
> Frankly, I can't see the point you're trying to make here. How do
> more advantages/disadvantages = less flexibility?
In HERO you have a custom-design system for many disadvantages
(e.g. but one category of mental disadvantages). In GURPS you have a
bazillion of specific disadvantages and if you want something
specific, you first of all have to search through the existing list
and -- if it's not there -- need to come up with a point value out of
thin air. Yes, you can compare your new disadvantage with the old
ones, but there are many of them and thus it's pretty difficult to get
balance right. I know that old time GURPS players now will cry out
loud, but these people always forget their many years of experience.
I can roleplay as well with AD&D as they with GURPS, but that's due to
many years of experience and not because AD&D is more suited to
roleplaing than GURPS.
--
Thomas Biskup EMail to: bis...@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code."
Eric Tolle
Pa...@z-com.com (Paul Beakley) wrote:
>There's a difference between genre conventions and specific setting
>details. Warp drive is a sci fi convention; dilithium crystals that
>make the drives work a particular way is a Star Trek (tm) setting
>specific detail, for example. And calling it, um, DiTrithigum isn't
>good enough.
Or say, Zhucchi crystals? (Classic Traveller) Or how about a lens
that increases psionic abilities? (Space Opera) Or Lightsabers (Space
Opera again), Monomolecular wire whips? (cyberpunk, Traveller 2300)?
Or gee, maybe full conversion cyborgs with bunny ears? (Cyberpunk
2020)
SF games are notorious for scavenging- _especially_ when they are
trying to give feel similar to a favorite movie or book.. In most
cases they barely bother to change the names of the concepts they are
borrowing.
Eric Tolle unde...@rain.org
"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the
terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's
crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Eric Tolle
"Michael T. Richter" <m...@igs.net> wrote:
>The "attributes+skills" system has a long, ignoble tradition actually. Off
(list of games deleated)
You forgot to mention the James Bond RPG, which as far as I can tell
was also the first to explicitly make both difficulty levels and
degrees of success innate parts of the skill system.
>Who ripped off whom, then?
I consider it to be more of an evolution in game design- as more games
come out, there are more game concpets availble to inspire other
designers,a nd also several independant conceptual paths for game
design. It's not so much 'ripping off' as saying 'that way of looking
at it is neat; how can I do something in that line?'
Sue and Sean
Thus spake Graham Wills <gwi...@research.att.com>:
>GURPS is flawed, but not fatally. The stats limitedness
>and overwhelming presence makes it unsuitable for SF.
Golly! I'd better tell my players right away! We've been running a
hard sci-fi game for well over a year now. Please forgive us -- we
didn't know it was unsuitable.
--
Susan and Sean (order optional) "I think not!" said Descartes,
S & S Enterprises and promptly vanished.
sa...@netcom.com
Jonathan Woodward
Mary K. Kuhner (mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu) wrote:
> One of the game design metarules that my group lives by (I don't know
> who first formulated it) is this: Making something difficult is not
> a substitute for making it impossible. That doesn't mean it's always
> wrong to control something by making it difficult, but it does mean
> you need to be rather careful.
-Further, it depends on the genre. In a superhero or Feng
Shui-like game, the heroes should be able to do the "impossible" from time
to time, while the mooks/henchmen/unnamed characters should not. In a
technothriller or X-Files game, you want more limits on your PCs.
-JW
Jonathan Woodward wood...@ftp.com or @io.com http://www.io.com/~woodward/
GCS/O a- C+++$ W++>+++$ N++ w++ t++ 5+ R+>+++$ b+++ DI++++ G++>++++ T+++$ y+
Spoiler: In _The Crying Game_, she's a guy.