GURPS Magic
Ian Chapman
Hello everyone. I am having minor point of dispute/small problem with
one of my gaming friends, and I'd thought I'd ask you for your opinions.
We both play GURPS. GURPS is my primary system (and has been
since 1986!) while AD&D is his primary system (and a distant 2nd or even
3rd for me). The bone of contention lies with GURPS Magic. It seems
that I am the only one in his and my local gaming circle (I belong to two
groups right now) that likes GURPS Magic (everyone else either hates it
or has negative ambivalence towards it). I have been running a GURPS
Fantasy campaign these past few months and this player has decided to
'try' a mage to be 'fair' to the GURPS Magic rules, yet it seems to me
that he hamstrung his own character to suit is own prejudices against the
system. (That is he made his dislike of the system a self-fulfilling
prophesy.) I love the system, but I _don't_ want to be the only one
that plays a mage _all_ the time (esp. if I am the GM!) Here are his
primary bones of contention, and how I have responded to them so far:
1) The system is too restrictive. He feels that if he wants to have an
instant death bolt spell, that he should be able to 'learn' that spell
independently (from any other type of magic). You can already imagine
how he feels about the GURPS system of layered prerequisites for
spells!! (He constantly grouses about having to spend 5 'useless' points
to learn fireball... which btw is not the best combat spell _anyway_
but more on that later.) I patiently explain that 1) I am GM like to
have specific tools to balance out the raw power of a mage...and spell
prerequisites are a good way to accomplish this in a way that is
perfectly consistent with the game world, and 2) IMHO magic _should_ be
learned as a succession of layered skills. If this is _not_ the kind of
magic-using character you envision, you should (perhaps) look to another
way of handling magic (such as rune magic, knacks, religious magic, etc.)
2) All mages look the same. He complains that to get the spells (usually
in his mind powerful combat spells) he wants, he always has to build
essentially the same mage with differing 'window dressing'. (Yes he
loves those fireball, lightning bolt, etc spells....) Specifically, he
complains that if a mage knows spell 'x', you are pretty sure he knows
(variants) of 'w,y,and z' because they are prerequisites. This is true
to a point, but I make the following points: 1) Perhaps you ought to
expand your horizons and look at other types of mages. Maybe specialize
in Making/Breaking, Body, Illusions, or even Meta-Spells. My basic point
is that although most mages will have many of the same spells (like
recover strength), with 400+ spells out there, they _don't_ all have to
look the same.... 2) There is (usually) more than one way to get the
kind of mage you want. Although there _is_ only one way to learn
fireball, that does _not_ mean there aren't other spells out there that
LOOK like fireball but aren't...and have different prerequisites. It is
the mage _player's_ responsibility to research these matters, not mine
(as the GM).
3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat). He constantly complains that he
needs 1,2, or even 3 turns to complete a spell while Joe fighter gets to
swing at him every second. A large part of this is due to _absolutely_
LOUSY spell selection!! I have _tried_ to get him to construct his mages
and choose his spells more intelligently, but it seems hopeless
(*sigh*). Specifically (and I also noticed this when _he_ constructed a
500pt villain countermage to my 500pt mage in his roommate's Supers
campaign several months back), he seems to COMPLETELY miss the point of
several good blocking spells that will almost INSURE he does not get hit
while concentrating (Iron Arm, Blink, Ward) (and a mage's 'will' roll to
retain concentration while defending is generally an easy roll to make).
Furthermore he seems completely stuck (not intentionally of course) in
AD&D magic mode. He always seems to go for missile type attack spells
and ignore those spells that are regular spells that can be used at range
(such as the 'Jet' spells). Furthermore, he seems completely blind to
the possibility of area of effect spells (except in missile form) and
having one (or possibly two) select spells bought up to the 21+ level
(missile shield comes to mind, body of air, _death-touch_!). Generally
in my experience, the missile spells take the longest to cast, are the
most likely to fail, and are the easiest to spoof. (But I can't get him
to see this...but he complains about the effect all the time and blames
the magic system in toto.)
I probably should state in closing that I am a physicist (and the _only_
scientifically minded person _in_ this group). In my other group (which
has two other physicists in it) both of them (the physicists) seem to
*LOVE* the GURPS Magic system, and both were very much aware (after a
single reading of my GURPS Magic and GURPS Grimoire) of most of the
important ins and outs of constructing a GURPS Mage (and both _were_ avid
AD&D players...but are now switching over to GURPS themselves). Is it my
imagination, or is this problem (if indeed it is one) due to the fact
that I _am_ the only scientist in this gaming group? I'd like to think
my horizons are broader than that.... Thoughts anyone?
Ian Chapman
* Is there no truth in beauty? |
|
** Truth IS beauty? \ | /
___ *____
* But what is truth? *
/ | \
|
|
Ed Bradley
OK, I personally like the GURPS magic system, and would strongly disagree
that Mages are weaker then Fighters. At 100 points a fighter MIGHT have
a slight edge over a Mage, but that soon fades as the campaign progresses.
On the value of Blocking Spells, Iron arm blink etc are useful to avoid
getting hit, but I belive any blocking spell stops you concentrating on
the spell you were preparing. The will roll at -3 is only for active
defenses such as dodge, block, and parry.
As you pointed out a few Key spells at level 21 can make all the difference
in the world, a couple nasty combinations are rooted feet, and either
death touch or dehydrate (Create fire can be nasty there also). Daze at
high level is hard to stop, and the combination of Force dome around the
opponent, followed by either Destroy Air, or Create Fire will take out
any fighter who doesn't have an Ace up his sleeve (that trick works
wonders on Magic resistant fighters since the spells aren't resistable).
Mages are much deadlier then a fighter IF they are applied correctly.
Good Luck,
Ed Bradley
Ian Chapman
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.gurps
Subject: Re: GURPS Magic
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In article <4nevjd$g...@nntp-1.io.com>, Ed Bradley <bra...@io.com> wrote:
>OK, I personally like the GURPS magic system, and would strongly disagree
>that Mages are weaker then Fighters. At 100 points a fighter MIGHT have
>a slight edge over a Mage, but that soon fades as the campaign progresses.
>On the value of Blocking Spells, Iron arm blink etc are useful to avoid
>getting hit, but I belive any blocking spell stops you concentrating on
>the spell you were preparing. The will roll at -3 is only for active
>defenses such as dodge, block, and parry.
Just a minor point of contention here. If you read the general
description of a 'blocking' spell, I believe you will find that it is
considered to be an 'active' defense. Since a 'blocking' spell IS an
'active' defense, you may cast (or concentrate) on an ordinary spell, and
cast a blocking spell in the same turn. Also, since a blocking spell is
an active defense, the mage _is_ entitled to a Will-3 roll to retain
concentration. (For example 'iron arm'=='parry'.)
[Rest snipped.]
I happen to strongly agree with the rest of this post.
David Meyer
Ian Chapman (pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu) wrote:
: Hello everyone. I am having minor point of dispute/small problem with
: We both play GURPS. GURPS is my primary system (and has been
: since 1986!) while AD&D is his primary system (and a distant 2nd or even
: 3rd for me). The bone of contention lies with GURPS Magic. It seems
: that I am the only one in his and my local gaming circle (I belong to two
: groups right now) that likes GURPS Magic (everyone else either hates it
: or has negative ambivalence towards it).
You have a couple of problems to deal with here. One is that
GURPS itself is a "lower power" game than AD&D. Your starting characters,
even at 100 points, are both more adept and better defined than starting
characters in AD&D, but a dozen sessions later the AD&D character is more
powerful, though still lacking in definition. Some players of AD&D glory
in the ability of their fifth-level characters to wipe out a small army
of peasants without taking a life-threatening injury. Throw a hundred or
so points (a few at a time) on a 100 point GURPS character and he'd still
be advised to run from a mob - no matter -how- primative their "weapons".
The other problem is that GURPS mages are not as powerful in
battle, compared to fighters, as their AD&D counterparts. Fireball is
really only good against one opponent. Exploding Fireball will, at best,
kill or injure only a handful of the enemy. Compared to the 20'r sphere
of destruction that is an AD&D fireball, this is -nothing-.
This is not to put the GURPS mage down. My son plays one to great
advantage despite limiting his spell choices to those in the Basic Book.
It isn't the power of the spell, but the ingenuity of the caster, that
counts. The mob that tried to threaten his character was greeted with the
vision of a Demon, in conversation with the mage - and they wisely backed
off. His skill roll of a four (and slight familiarity with the demon in
question) didn't hurt. Actually, nobody got hurt. Something else that
annoys some AD&D gamers.
Mac McKeon
Ian Chapman wrote:
%<%<%< [a long post regarding one player's view of magic]
--
Just a suggestion: is there any possibility of one of the players from the
"magic-friendly" group playing with the other group for a while? Perhaps if
this guy got a chance to see a mage well-designed, well-played and
successful, he might get some pointers on what to try that works...
----
/McK
----
"Few problems in life cannot be greatly helped by (1) An
increase in sales, or (2) A hot fudge sundae."
- Jean Baum
Bret Indrelee
In article <4nemkh$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
Ian Chapman <pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Hello everyone. I am having minor point of dispute/small problem with
>one of my gaming friends, and I'd thought I'd ask you for your opinions.
>We both play GURPS. GURPS is my primary system (and has been
>since 1986!) while AD&D is his primary system (and a distant 2nd or even
>3rd for me).
>1) The system is too restrictive.
[ snip ]
Ask him how many spells his 'starting' GURPS mage can cast in a day.
Now, ask him how many spells his fifth level AD&D mage can cast in a
day.
Point out that before learning the higher level spells in AD&D, he has
to go through a lot. There is no way to have a starting (1st level)
AD&D character that can cast Spectral Force, yet a starting GURPS
mage can cast the equivilent Perfect Illusion.
Double check with him what the weapons and armor restrictions are in GURPS
and AD&D. Point out some of the other areas (outside magic) where the
skill system of GURPS is much more reasonable.
>2) All mages look the same. He complains that to get the spells (usually
>in his mind powerful combat spells) he wants, he always has to build
>essentially the same mage with differing 'window dressing'. (Yes he
>loves those fireball, lightning bolt, etc spells....)
Think of it like High School for Mages. Everyone learns the basics, but
where they concentrate their efforts are going to be very different. Any
astronomer is going to know a fair amount of physics and math. A computer
programmer is going to be pretty good a predicate logic.
This is the model that GURPS uses for magic spells, they are a special
type of skill.
>3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat). He constantly complains that he
>needs 1,2, or even 3 turns to complete a spell while Joe fighter gets to
>swing at him every second. A large part of this is due to _absolutely_
>LOUSY spell selection!! I have _tried_ to get him to construct his mages
Point out that it is only the Missle Spells that don't speed up with
high skill levels. Something like Flame Jet can be cast in no time if
you learn it to level 21. He already has all the prerequisites if he
has Fireball.
Then demonstrate by example (an opposing mage that they have to fight) which
shows how some of the spells can be extremely effective.
A mage with Flame Jet 21 and Shield 21 (or higher) can look unarmed yet
still be very dangerous in melee.
Lastly, admit the GURPS will never match AD&D in the ability to kill off
large groups of opponents. It is a difference in the systems. If he
continues to try and kill large numbers (rather than individual) opponents
with the magic, he will likely never be happy.
GURPS is a much more 'in your face' sort of magic. Other than the missle
spells, GURPS magic gets really tough at long distances. Get close, and
the regular spells can become very effective.
Hope this helps,
-Bret
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bret Indrelee | "I'm a four letter word."
br...@winternet.com |
Eric Robert Sylwester
: In article <4nemkh$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
: Ian Chapman <pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu> wrote:
: >Hello everyone. I am having minor point of dispute/small problem with
: >We both play GURPS. GURPS is my primary system (and has been
: >since 1986!) while AD&D is his primary system (and a distant 2nd or even
: >3rd for me).
: >1) The system is too restrictive.
: [ snip ]
Hah! Make a runemage. Eidetic mem 2, Magery ("meta" college only), and
every rune at a basic level- around 14- can easily be had with 100
points.
Now you've got a character that can theoretically cast *any* spell,
fatigue allowing. She can even make new ones up on the spot. And if she
writes them out in scrolls, every spell takes 2 seconds (3 for the
3-rune, very hard spells), which is actually *faster* than a lot of big
spells cast the normal way.
She might be too slow in combat (mine was), but given the sheer
adaptability of her various magics, you'll have every other character in
the campaign fighting to defend them, believe me. Such a character is an
excellent, excellent campaign character (though not so good for a dungeon
crawl).
Don't really see how you can get less restrictive than that, other than
to just tell the player "do whatever you want."
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Robert Hanz
Ian Chapman wrote:
> 1) The system is too restrictive.
Actually, I feel quite the opposite. The prerequisite system lets
characters get all sorts of nifty spells that they may not have
otherwise picked up.
Does GURPS Magic still have the system for 'knacks', or was that from
Supers? If he *really* wants to have spells without the prereqs,, let
him do them like that, and then put in an NPC or someone else who has
all the prereqs and does really cool things with them.
> 2) All mages look the same.
Only if he insists on playing the same types of mages. Here's a
suggestion for you. Make some nasty mage with a jet spell of some sort,
some cool blocking spells, apportation or something else similarly
nasty, and put him up against him. SHOW him the tricks that GURPS mages
are capable of instead of expecting him to realize them on his own.
>
> 3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat). He constantly complains that he
> needs 1,2, or even 3 turns to complete a spell while Joe fighter gets to
> swing at him every second.
Yes, but Joe Fighter has to get up close and personal. Considering that
it takes 4 secs. to load a crossbow, I think that 3 seconds for an
exploding fireball that does generally more damage, as well as being an
area spell, as well as the fact that you can aim it at the hex (negating
dodge!!!) makes it very well balanced. And Apportation can mess with
any fighter's day. I've had it happen to me too often (whoops! There's
300 pounds of pressure on your sword... gimme a strength check)
If he's looking to play an AD&D mage in GURPS, he can forget it. GURPS
mages are less powerful but more versatile. However, the only way he'll
realize this is by seeing the tricks they're capable of.
Just my $.02
--
"A creature of gathered shadows, he shambled forth with the
slow, inexorable progress of a primordial force."
Standard disclaimers apply.
Bill Seurer
In article <4nemkh$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu (Ian Chapman) writes:
|> 1) The system is too restrictive. He feels that if he wants to have an
|> instant death bolt spell, that he should be able to 'learn' that spell
|> independently (from any other type of magic).
I like it but I do admit it is restrictive this way. But so what? That's
the way it works. Use a different system if you don't like it. I *LIKE*
the idea that before you can cast the Fireball spell you have to know how
to create and shape fire.
Besides, with all those "useless" spells on his character sheet he
might actually try to use something other than "Nuke Foe" once-in-a-while.
|> 2) All mages look the same.
That his problem. One of my players sometimes gets stuck in a rut, too.
I have a group where all 8 players are mages and they are vastly
different.
|>
|> 3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat).
This makes me laugh. I had a minmaxer once show me how to create an
utterly devatasting mage. His main spells were: Flight, Missile
Shield, and Dehydrate. Think about it, he floats up where you can't
reach him, the Missile Shield stops you from throwing/shooting anything
at him, and he does small dehydrates on you which have no fatigue cost
and aren't stopped by armor. Now there ARE ways around this (cast
spells back, Magic Resistance, ...) but overall this is a really potent
combination. And this is only ONE example.
--
- Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
Robert Kelk
Ian Chapman wrote:
> Hello everyone. I am having minor point of dispute/small problem with
> one of my gaming friends, and I'd thought I'd ask you for your opinions.
> We both play GURPS. GURPS is my primary system (and has been
> since 1986!) while AD&D is his primary system (and a distant 2nd or even
> 3rd for me). The bone of contention lies with GURPS Magic. It seems
> that I am the only one in his and my local gaming circle (I belong to two
> groups right now) that likes GURPS Magic (everyone else either hates it
> or has negative ambivalence towards it). I have been running a GURPS
> Fantasy campaign these past few months and this player has decided to
> 'try' a mage to be 'fair' to the GURPS Magic rules, yet it seems to me
> that he hamstrung his own character to suit is own prejudices against the
> system. (That is he made his dislike of the system a self-fulfilling
> prophesy.) I love the system, but I _don't_ want to be the only one
> that plays a mage _all_ the time (esp. if I am the GM!) Here are his
> primary bones of contention, and how I have responded to them so far:
>
> 1) The system is too restrictive. He feels that if he wants to have an
> instant death bolt spell, that he should be able to 'learn' that spell
Well, you could answer by asking him how many AD&D mages get to start off
with the Fireball spell and nothing else. Remember, Fireball is a
third-level spell in AD&D, and no first-level mage gets to cast third-
level spells! Then you could mention that AD&D also has rules that force
mages to take certain spells and ignore other spells. (Granted, the
specialization rules are optional, but they're _there_.)
OTOH, you might want to be flexible and try a different magic system,
too. There are plenty of choices in the back of GURPS Magic ...
If you do decide to stick with the "standard" GURPS magic system, you
might want to introduce a few NPCs that have a few spells, but aren't
mages. A fighter with Sense Foes and Find Weakness has an advantage over
a fighter with a greataxe and a shield, if the two fighters are trying to
ambush each other! (Neither of those spells has prerequisites. Both are
in the Basic Set, implying that they're "common knowledge" in most
gameworlds. If your world has high mana, I'd definitely take those
spells for a fighter PC. If your world only has normal mana, I'd still
consider taking Magery 1 and those spells.)
> 2) All mages look the same. He complains that to get the spells (usually
> in his mind powerful combat spells) he wants, he always has to build
> essentially the same mage with differing 'window dressing'.<snip>
I suppose he doesn't take any disadvantages, either.
If you really want to encourage creativity in character creation, you
could say something like this: "I'm starting a new game world. The
mages in this world have never created any missile spells. If you want
those spells, you'll have to research them. Meanwhile, nobody's going to
believe you're a mage unless you've got a half-dozen spells under your
belt - which spells are you going to take?"
One warning - the player might dislike this restriction so much that
he'll refuse to play in that universe.
> 3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat). He constantly complains that he
> needs 1,2, or even 3 turns to complete a spell while Joe fighter gets to
> swing at him every second. A large part of this is due to _absolutely_
> LOUSY spell selection!!<snip>
Again, if the spells don't exist in your gameworld, he can't take them.
Make sure that the player knows about alternate spells that have similar
effects, though.
> Furthermore he seems completely stuck (not intentionally of course) in
> AD&D magic mode.<snip>
He's learned that a particular set of choices gains him the most benefit
in AD&D - you can't fault him for trying that same set of choices when he
switches to GURPS, HERO, MERP or any other RPG. It's when he refuses to
learn from his mistakes (which appears to be the case) that you're
justified in getting annoyed.
> I probably should state in closing that I am a physicist (and the _only_
> scientifically minded person _in_ this group). In my other group (which
> has two other physicists in it) both of them (the physicists) seem to
> *LOVE* the GURPS Magic system, and both were very much aware (after a
> single reading of my GURPS Magic and GURPS Grimoire) of most of the
> important ins and outs of constructing a GURPS Mage (and both _were_ avid
> AD&D players...but are now switching over to GURPS themselves). Is it my
> imagination, or is this problem (if indeed it is one) due to the fact
> that I _am_ the only scientist in this gaming group? I'd like to think
> my horizons are broader than that.... Thoughts anyone?
I doubt that the problem is thae difference between the scientifically-
trained mentality and the artistically-trained mentality -- an artist
would try different things just to see how they came out. I'd say that
your friend is caught in the "monty haul" / "munchkin" / "roll-play"
trap that AD&D sets.
You might want to encourage him to try something creative other than
playing an RPG. Get him to write a few short stories up to the point
where he'd consider submitting them for publication, _then_ have him
come back and create a character. You might be surprised at what
happens! (This suggestion is from experience in my game group - one
player kept playing the same character, until we got him interested in
writing short fiction and he realized the importance of diversity in
character concepts. It takes a _long_ time to work, though ...)
--
Robert Kelk ke...@pwgsc.gc.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions in this posting do not necessarily reflect the official
position of the Government of Canada or its departments.
Sean O'Flaherty
> The prerequisite system lets
> characters get all sorts of nifty spells that they may not have
> otherwise picked up.
The prerequisite system is there to banlace the game, by making more
powerful spells cost more points to get. The assumption is that simpler
spells are used as "building blocks" to more complicated (and powerful)
ones. Your right about prerequisite spells giving mages some usefull
abilities though.
rjlun...@life.uams.edu
In article <4nemkh$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu (Ian Chapman) wrote:
>(Deleted because it was big).
Reply:
Several people have defended the GURPS Magic requirement of prerequisites on the basis or rounding characters, realistic simple magics, diverse, creative uses for simple powers, ultimate usefulness in the game, etc.
I'm not repeating all that, even though I do believe it.
Here's a new twist. Magic in GURPS is treated like Science, a broad discipline with many separate skills (spells). In Science, you don't just 'learn' Biochemistry like a powerful upper level AD&D spells with no reference to the rest of your experience. In college, you have to take General (Inorganic) Chemistry I and II, then at least Organic Chemistry I (and usually II) and freshman Biology in order to aquire the knowledge base necessary to begin to study biochemistry. The same is true for Physical Chemi
rjlun...@life.uams.edu
necessary to begin to study biochemistry. The same is true for Physical Chemistry,
Nuclear Physics, Cell & Molecular Biology, etc. You learn simpler fields first, then
build on that. Most people entering medical school have a Biology major and Chemistry
minor, or similar scientific background (although a number don't). They build on that by
studing Pathology, Microbiology and Pharmacology (Sickness, bugs and drugs). Then they
practice those skill in the hospital their last 2 years of medical school. Then they
pursue residency training.
Many of us would like to take many courses in college but are limited by time and the
pursuit of requirements for our major; we only have so many 'character points' to invest
in our own 'character creation' and need to get the prerequisites for the upper level
skills we want to have.
GURPS Magic works just like that. People can have a 'Bachelor's' or 'Accociate's'
degree in a few colleges of magic, or a 'PhD' in one or two schools. How many character
points do you invest? The pattern of building upon previous skills by learning new ones
in the same field is how learning works.
As for the higher damage of AD&D spells; in a world where lots of characters have the
hit points of a dinosaur, who cares? AD&D mages are like monks with bazookas; they can
only shoot a very few times, so they don't get to do much, and when they do shoot, the
effect is overwhelming. GURPS mages do less immediate trauma to the session but rest and
can be active participants without finding excuses to crash 12-24 hr to 'study' spells
which are 'erased' from their memories each time they cast them, which is one of the all
time stupid ideas I have ever seen in an RPG. Do you have any idea how sensitive the
brain is? What is would do to have parts 'erased' often? I'm sorry, but AD&D's magic
system is illogical, erratic, helter-skelter and in practice just plain sad.
Richard.
Andrew Paice
|> I probably should state in closing that I am a physicist (and the _only_
|> scientifically minded person _in_ this group). In my other group (which
|> has two other physicists in it) both of them (the physicists) seem to
|> *LOVE* the GURPS Magic system, and both were very much aware (after a
|> single reading of my GURPS Magic and GURPS Grimoire) of most of the
|> important ins and outs of constructing a GURPS Mage (and both _were_ avid
|> AD&D players...but are now switching over to GURPS themselves). Is it my
|> imagination, or is this problem (if indeed it is one) due to the fact
|> that I _am_ the only scientist in this gaming group? I'd like to think
|> my horizons are broader than that.... Thoughts anyone?
It's probably that the GURPS system is a complicated system to learn (in comparison
with AD&D anyway), and is relatively logically constructed. A scientist has more
practise with learning and using logical systems, and is thus better equipped to
absorb the system and draw logical conclusions from different parts of the rules, eg
Combat & Magic.
My 0.02.
Andrew
Art Urban
The last thing I'm going to do is defend AD&D ;-), however, I too, grew
deeply disgusted by the spell prerequisite system. Most mages *did* look
the same because they were forced to participate in the same set of
prerequiste spells. So I did what GURPS encourages - I changed it.
After much, much work, I have redone both Magic and Grimoire into a
prerequisiteless system. Each spell now falls into one of seven possible
spell orders, with seventh order spells being the most powerful/desirable.
However, it takes more points to learn a seventh order spell than a first
order spell. So far our group is infatuated with the total flexibility this
system offers. We also discovered a pleasant side effect: Mages were no
longer spell casting success machines (this is, of course, *all a matter
of taste*). We disposed of the Very Hard cost schedule and put everything
on a 2pt per level table, so that for one point your spell level would be
((IQ - Order) +1). So far...heaven.
--
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Art T. Urban Systems Support & FSL/FD WebMaster
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NOAA/ERL/FSL/FD (303) 497-6922
R/E/FS2 ur...@opus.fsl.noaa.gov
325 Broadway http://www-fd.fsl.noaa.gov/~urban
Boulder, CO 80303 Room 227A in Research Lab 3
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"Sudden death may occur without warning. Call a physician immediately."
- Warning found on a can of Freon
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Archangel Beth
Bill Seurer wrote:
> In article <4nemkh$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, pol...@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu (Ian Chapman) writes:
>|>
>|> 3) Mages are too weak (esp. in combat).
>
>utterly devatasting mage. His main spells were: Flight, Missile
>Shield, and Dehydrate. Think about it, he floats up where you can't
>reach him, the Missile Shield stops you from throwing/shooting anything
>at him, and he does small dehydrates on you which have no fatigue cost
>and aren't stopped by armor. Now there ARE ways around this (cast
>spells back, Magic Resistance, ...) but overall this is a really potent
>combination. And this is only ONE example.
Let's see, there's the Invisible Flying Mage (not only
can't you shoot him, you can't even *see* him!), and the
Possession Mage -- get Deathtouch at 21, so you can
cast it "no hands," get Beast Possession. Possess a mosquito.
Go around and cast Deathtouch on the enemy... (Okay, so
neither of these are good for *surprise* combat -- but
if you're bringing the fight *to* someone...)
--emc...@nh.ultranet.com // arca...@io.com // emc...@jade.mv.net
July 13-14, PhoenixCon!
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/wrench/mjudson/Phoenix/
Damon Kosheleff
Art Urban wrote:
> However, it takes more points to learn a seventh order spell than a first
> order spell. So far our group is infatuated with the total flexibility this
> system offers. We also discovered a pleasant side effect: Mages were no
> longer spell casting success machines (this is, of course, *all a matter
> of taste*). We disposed of the Very Hard cost schedule and put everything
> on a 2pt per level table, so that for one point your spell level would be
> ((IQ - Order) +1). So far...heaven.
Your system sounds pretty cool, would you care to explain more? either
by email or on the newsgroup?
I've always thought success rates were way too high to start with, your
system looks a little more balanced.
Damon K
dam...@bu.edu