Game design theology... aka NEENER NEENER
aa004
<3B2FBE4F...@aol.communism>:
>[munch]
>> gravesites. I shoulda reread my conversation notes cause the answer
>> was in there too! Ah well, near the end of a game who has that kind
>> of patience with it anyway. When will game designers learn to make
>> games the hardest in the middle and not the end?
>
>That's an interesting design issue... does anyone else feel this way?
>Common knowledge insists that a game should get progressively harder as
>it goes along, of course reaching eventual climax with the final boss
>battle, or whatever[1], after which follows the (hopefully)[2]
>worthwhile payoff. However, much like most short stories[3], it sounds
>an awful lot like the male sexual experience.
>^_^
>
>So... I guess the point, and what is always my point when I look at
>something and wonder why it's done the way it is, is how could it be
>done differently? Anyone played a game which was hardest in the middle
>and got easier toward the end? Discuss.
>
Well, if a game was truly masterfully created (ie. really fun all the way
through) then it should climax at the end.
I've been playing all the Ultima games starting at U1 (ugh! only a true fan
would play U1 and U2 - and finish them) and by the time I have been through
three quarter's of each and every one of them (cept U4) I have been bored
stiff by the game and have a miniscule amount of patience left. I just
want to solve it and get it over with so I can move on to the next one
(which just might be fun again). That's dedication I tell ya :).
So game designers should just face reality. Most of them are adequate and
mediocre and make alright stuff but judge the point at which we will be
bored at and tie the game up nicely and simply there please!
Of all the tons of games I have played so far, the only two I could say
rise to the top as *enthralling experiences*:
1) Half-Life
2) Ultima 4
All the rest may have been fun, but meaningless and forgetable like
crosswords puzzles.
I enjoyed Ultima 4 so much (back in like '89 on a C64, it popped my Ultima
cherry) and it created the Ultima fan I am. The inertia it created has
propelled me through the rest of the series. Weird thing is after playing
Black Gate and a bit of Serpent Isle, which I've read are the favorites of
most Ultima fans, I have four words to say: *YAWN* *YAWN* *SNORE* *YAWN*.
So I have developed the opinion that all the Ultima fans to which U4 isn't
their fave are weird. You people have no sense of aesthetics - you are the
people who would have created platform shoes and rust colored polyester
suits back in the seventies. Neener neener.
zhentil
> The inertia it created has
> propelled me through the rest of the series.
Yay! Me too!
> Weird thing is after playing
> Black Gate and a bit of Serpent Isle, which I've read are the favorites of
> most Ultima fans, I have four words to say: *YAWN* *YAWN* *SNORE* *YAWN*.
Yay! Me too!
> So I have developed the opinion that all the Ultima fans to which U4 isn't
> their fave are weird.
Muahahah! I think I've also taken that stance :)
But then again, I also enjoyed Ultima 8... much more than U7!
My favorite Ultima will always be U4.. but I have *never* been able to
stomach U7 and U7SI (too linear, way too linear.. I've always considered the
games to be too easy, as well..), however. I mean, I can see why people like
them, but frankly, some of the reasons people enjoy them are reasons I
thought they were annoying. Well, these are my main reasons for not liking
them:
1. Almost entirely dialogue driven games.. IMO, a game should have a healty
mix of dialogue and combat. When it is so dialogue driven as U7, especially
in text as U7, I will have a better time reading a book or watching a movie.
2. "No-think" battle system.. I enjoyed U5 and U6 combat system. Complete
control over everything while "Engage & Melee" plays! In U7, all you have is
the ability to set people's tactics, which really degrades to "run" or
"fight". Stupid.
3. "No-think" plot system.. at LEAST if it's dialogue based, they could have
made it a little less linear! Both games. Every player who plays both games
will take away the exact same series of events (which are somewhat
predictable). Once again, a book or movie would be better.
4. The Fellowship motif gets old very quickly. I'm supposed to be the Avatar
for f*ck's sake, in a land where people know me, and the common peasant
talks down to me because he has heard the voice of the Muppet. At least in
U8, the people talk down to the Avatar because they don't know him (in a
strange land, he appears strange to them, with his clothes and accent). THAT
is cool. U7's people's disrespect for the Avatar is NOT.
Well, there you go. Just my personal observations, the element's of U7 and
U7SI I have never enjoyed. BTW, as an addendum to #3, in Ultima 4, the
player will always (well, except for Silvan Pagan :P) take away the status
of the Avatar from the game, sure, but the game is nowhere near linear.
Every player has a good chance of playing it a completely different way
every time they play. So don't tell me U4 is linear :)
--
"we've been Waiting fOr summEr but winter came
we've been enterIng people'S hoMes but it was snowing in therE"
- victor tsoi
Corvid Dragon
> > I enjoyed Ultima 4 ....
> > The inertia it created has
> > propelled me through the rest of the series.
>
> Yay! Me too!
Ultima 4 was definitely one of the greatest gaming experiences -I've-
ever had. I was twelve, and I hadn't even read LotR yet. It was... It
was bliss, that's all there was to it.
> > Weird thing is after playing
> > Black Gate and a bit of Serpent Isle, which I've read are the favorites of
> > most Ultima fans, I have four words to say: *YAWN* *YAWN* *SNORE* *YAWN*.
>
> Yay! Me too!
::nodnod:: I liked it, but... I liked it not as much as meeting the
members of the Resistance by the well in North Britanny at midnight.
$deity, that was cool.
> > So I have developed the opinion that all the Ultima fans to which U4 isn't
> > their fave are weird.
I don't know... I waver between the middle three.... U4 had the best
exploration, but U5 had an awesome story, without being linear, and U6
was just so... I dunno. Cool. ^_^
>
> Muahahah! I think I've also taken that stance :)
>
> But then again, I also enjoyed Ultima 8... much more than U7!
I loved the concept and story of U8, just not so much the execution.
>
> My favorite Ultima will always be U4.. but I have *never* been able to
> stomach U7 and U7SI (too linear, way too linear.. I've always considered the
> games to be too easy, as well..), however. I mean, I can see why people like
> them, but frankly, some of the reasons people enjoy them are reasons I
> thought they were annoying. Well, these are my main reasons for not liking
> them:
>
> 1. Almost entirely dialogue driven games.. IMO, a game should have a healty
> mix of dialogue and combat. When it is so dialogue driven as U7, especially
> in text as U7, I will have a better time reading a book or watching a movie.
Well, FWIW I hated the combat in U7. If there had been no fighting
whatsoever, I probably would have enjoyed it more. ::looks down:: Yeah.
> 2. "No-think" battle system.. I enjoyed U5 and U6 combat system. Complete
> control over everything while "Engage & Melee" plays! In U7, all you have is
> the ability to set people's tactics, which really degrades to "run" or
> "fight". Stupid.
Well, it's a touch of realistic, of course... you never have time to plan
your moves in a fight. But it didn't feel any more realistic, just
frustrating.
> 3. "No-think" plot system.. at LEAST if it's dialogue based, they could have
> made it a little less linear! Both games. Every player who plays both games
> will take away the exact same series of events (which are somewhat
> predictable). Once again, a book or movie would be better.
This I agree with, whole-heartedly. Although, the same series of events
occur in U4, just not necessarily in the same order. I liked U5, because
I think it had a lot more optional, "side-quest" type stuff you could do.
Like infiltrating Blackthorn's castle. Not necessary, but damn was the
Crown useful. =) More easter eggs, bigger conversations... The people
had -character-, because they had more than six responses, or whatever it
was.
> 4. The Fellowship motif gets old very quickly. I'm supposed to be the Avatar
> for f*ck's sake, in a land where people know me, and the common peasant
> talks down to me because he has heard the voice of the Muppet. At least in
> U8, the people talk down to the Avatar because they don't know him (in a
> strange land, he appears strange to them, with his clothes and accent). THAT
> is cool. U7's people's disrespect for the Avatar is NOT.
I dunno, it made me resentful, and feel more in-character than I think I
have before, so in that respect I liked having it there. I do think,
though, that there probably should have been more people who were more
devoted to the old Virtues. But the feeling that the Guardian had taken
these people from you, had made those friendly faces you remember from
U6, made for such great motivation to stop the bastard.
> Well, there you go. Just my personal observations, the element's of U7 and
> U7SI I have never enjoyed. BTW, as an addendum to #3, in Ultima 4, the
> player will always (well, except for Silvan Pagan :P) take away the status
> of the Avatar from the game, sure, but the game is nowhere near linear.
> Every player has a good chance of playing it a completely different way
> every time they play. So don't tell me U4 is linear :)
It's not linear, but there's not a whole lot of variety in experience, I
don't think. ::shrug:: Just IMO.
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
I'll show you who's the protector and master around here
Helgraf Dragon
C'mon - it's been 200 YEARS since you were there last (not counting
UW1). Most of the people who would remember you are dead. The others
are wizards and/or companions. (And Smith).
If I went to Italy and claimed to be Christopher Columbus, I'd expect to
be mocked.
> I dunno, it made me resentful, and feel more in-character than I think I
> have before, so in that respect I liked having it there. I do think,
> though, that there probably should have been more people who were more
> devoted to the old Virtues. But the feeling that the Guardian had taken
> these people from you, had made those friendly faces you remember from
> U6, made for such great motivation to stop the bastard.
--
Helgraf Dragon, the NSA Dragon, Liason to Echelon
A Chronicler of the Circle of Dragons, King of Sloth
__ The Exodus of the *Other Side*; Plonk Count : 5
/__\ d++ e++ N T-- Om+ U1!23!4!5!6!7'!S'!8!KA!L!
/|__|\ u+++ uC++ uF uG++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nH+ nP+ nI+ nPT nS++
|----| nT+ y++ a27;a1728 When home is a torus, expect
|_||_| curves. Fossil; Mao Count : 5, Psychological torch
Michael McIntyre
>> So I have developed the opinion that all the Ultima fans to which U4 isn't
>> their fave are weird.
>
>Muahahah! I think I've also taken that stance :)
>
>But then again, I also enjoyed Ultima 8... much more than U7!
I'm not getting into U8 at all so far. I've started on it, and frankly I
find it no more compelling so far than U1-5.
>My favorite Ultima will always be U4.. but I have *never* been able to
>stomach U7 and U7SI (too linear, way too linear.. I've always considered the
>games to be too easy, as well..), however. I mean, I can see why people like
>them, but frankly, some of the reasons people enjoy them are reasons I
>thought they were annoying. Well, these are my main reasons for not liking
>them:
I guess it comes down to whether or not you object to linear. You have to
get the splimbob into the hoochunk before the splazwuzit pops out. Nothing
wrong with that.
I guess I just don't think it a way that makes SI and BG feel constraining.
>1. Almost entirely dialogue driven games.. IMO, a game should have a healty
>mix of dialogue and combat. When it is so dialogue driven as U7, especially
>in text as U7, I will have a better time reading a book or watching a movie.
>2. "No-think" battle system.. I enjoyed U5 and U6 combat system. Complete
>control over everything while "Engage & Melee" plays! In U7, all you have is
>the ability to set people's tactics, which really degrades to "run" or
>"fight". Stupid.
I liked U7's combat. Load up good weapons, train up, hit the fight button
and get on with the meat of the game. I've never cared for arcade games.
U4's combat system was t...e...d...i...o...u...s and that more than any
other factor was why I just couldn't suffer through the thing to
completion.
Take U6.
A-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-click
A-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-clickA-click
Why is that better than hitting the fight button and forgetting about it?
>3. "No-think" plot system.. at LEAST if it's dialogue based, they could have
>made it a little less linear! Both games. Every player who plays both games
>will take away the exact same series of events (which are somewhat
>predictable). Once again, a book or movie would be better.
I just don't see it that way. You still have to figure out what to do with
the splazwuzit once it pops out.
>4. The Fellowship motif gets old very quickly. I'm supposed to be the Avatar
>for f*ck's sake, in a land where people know me, and the common peasant
>talks down to me because he has heard the voice of the Muppet. At least in
>U8, the people talk down to the Avatar because they don't know him (in a
>strange land, he appears strange to them, with his clothes and accent). THAT
>is cool. U7's people's disrespect for the Avatar is NOT.
Agreed, but OTOH he's been away for 200 years, and he keeps changing his
appearance... :)
>Well, there you go. Just my personal observations, the element's of U7 and
>U7SI I have never enjoyed. BTW, as an addendum to #3, in Ultima 4, the
>player will always (well, except for Silvan Pagan :P) take away the status
>of the Avatar from the game, sure, but the game is nowhere near linear.
>Every player has a good chance of playing it a completely different way
>every time they play. So don't tell me U4 is linear :)
Different order, but don't you still have to get all the blimdats lined up
with the splimflats eventually? Maybe you have more choices for how to
accomplish that, but it's still a matter of getting the right flags to trip
in order to trigger the endgame, right? I'll find out whenever somebody
does a remake with a decent game engine. Preferably one with a no-thought
combat interface. :)
Different strokes. I'm about as far removed from the group average as I
can be, yet here I am. :)
(Well, at least I don't think only UO and U9 are good games...)
---
Michael McIntyre | mmci...@swva.net | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
Silvan Pagan Dragon -=UDIC=-
d+ e- N+ T+ Om+++ U123456!7!S!8!9! u++ uC++ uF- uG uLB- uA++
nC+ nH+ nP+ nI nPT nS++++ nT+ wM---- wC--- wS---- o--- oE----
y+ a29
zhentil
> be mocked.
That's because you aren't and never have been Chris Columbus. In Ultima, you
ARE the avatar!@$! There are paintings and statues, and legends that are a
mile high! You're the man that saved the world from ignorance, I think
they'd have half a bloody mind to remember you instead of their forsaking of
you.
Michael McIntyre
>> If I went to Italy and claimed to be Christopher Columbus, I'd expect to
>> be mocked.
>
>That's because you aren't and never have been Chris Columbus. In Ultima, you
>ARE the avatar!@$! There are paintings and statues, and legends that are a
>mile high! You're the man that saved the world from ignorance, I think
>they'd have half a bloody mind to remember you instead of their forsaking of
>you.
OTOH If I cut all my hair off, shaved my beard, dyed my remaining hair
blond and got a flat-top, would you recognize me?
zhentil
to
> >> be mocked.
> >
> >That's because you aren't and never have been Chris Columbus. In Ultima,
you
> >ARE the avatar!@$! There are paintings and statues, and legends that are
a
> >mile high! You're the man that saved the world from ignorance, I think
> >they'd have half a bloody mind to remember you instead of their forsaking
of
> >you.
>
> OTOH If I cut all my hair off, shaved my beard, dyed my remaining hair
> blond and got a flat-top, would you recognize me?
No, but that's because I've never met you.
However, I always assumed that, even though the portraits in game are
different, the Avatar was always supposed to look the same. Also, they let
you pick which portrait you want to use (in SI, at least), but for the most
part, in U4 and U5 you draw your own conclusions of what your character
looks like. And the Avatar (male) in U7 looks an awful lot like the Avatar
on the U6 cover.
Helgraf Dragon
>
> > >> If I went to Italy and claimed to be Christopher Columbus, I'd expect
> to
> > >> be mocked.
> > >
> > >That's because you aren't and never have been Chris Columbus. In Ultima,
> you
> > >ARE the avatar!@$! There are paintings and statues, and legends that are
> a
> > >mile high! You're the man that saved the world from ignorance, I think
> > >they'd have half a bloody mind to remember you instead of their forsaking
> of
> > >you.
> >
> > OTOH If I cut all my hair off, shaved my beard, dyed my remaining hair
> > blond and got a flat-top, would you recognize me?
>
> No, but that's because I've never met you.
And the people of Britannia in the time period of U7 have never met
their Avatar. So all they have to go by is the paintings, old stories
that nobody tells much anymore.
Introduce the Sullivan element. Someone who claims to be the Avatar and
rips you off. You're going to be pretty suspicious of others claiming
to be the Avatar now, yes?
Michael McIntyre
>> blond and got a flat-top, would you recognize me?
>
>No, but that's because I've never met you.
>
>However, I always assumed that, even though the portraits in game are
>different, the Avatar was always supposed to look the same. Also, they let
OK, how many people do you think will have met the Avatar? Have you ever
met the President, or any other high muckety muck official type person?
How good are the portraits and statues? I've seen plenty of both that bore
only a passing resemblance to the person they represent.
Even if he looks the same (but how can he with all those portraits?) then
those statues and such would still have to be pretty good.
Paulon
>zhentil wrote:
>> No, but that's because I've never met you.
>
>And the people of Britannia in the time period of U7 have never met
>their Avatar. So all they have to go by is the paintings, old stories
>that nobody tells much anymore.
>
>Introduce the Sullivan element. Someone who claims to be the Avatar and
>rips you off. You're going to be pretty suspicious of others claiming
>to be the Avatar now, yes?
Add the propaganda in the Book of the Fellowship, which goes out of its way
to make the Avatar out to be a fool who took the worst possible option in
all the adventures in the past. Even those who believe in the Avatar are
likely to have doubts about competance after reading Batlin's book.
--
Paulon Dragon d++ e- N T+ Om U1!2!3!4!5!6!7'!S'!8!9!K!A!L!W!M!
-==(UDIC)==- u++ uC+ uF uG uLB+ uA+ nC nH+ nI nPT nS+ nT+ y?
The Other Codex http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~paulryan/Ultima/
Danger Will Robinson! One of your nodes is about to fall off!
Ultima VII endgame.exe file
Negate the Spell to Wish me Well...
zhentil
> >> OTOH If I cut all my hair off, shaved my beard, dyed my remaining hair
> >> blond and got a flat-top, would you recognize me?
> >
> >No, but that's because I've never met you.
This was a joke, not meant to be taken seriously. I have never met Michael
McIntyre for all I know, so if he did all the above mentioned stuff, I
wouldn't recognize him. I wouldn't recognize him if he DIDN'T do all that
stuff!
> OK, how many people do you think will have met the Avatar? Have you ever
> met the President, or any other high muckety muck official type person?
See above.
> How good are the portraits and statues? I've seen plenty of both that
bore
> only a passing resemblance to the person they represent.
> Even if he looks the same (but how can he with all those portraits?) then
> those statues and such would still have to be pretty good.
And don't forget paintings. You also have to remember it's a fantasy world.
You've got this King who's been alive for 9,000 years, remember, Beast
British, and of course all these people who still exist who were the
Avatar's closest companions! The companions sinking into relative obscurity
ALSO makes me a bit mad, because these men should have been hailed as
champions! "That man knew the Avatar! He told me to 'bite my tongue in the
presense of the Avatar'! I don't believe you, I spit on you!"
It's a fantasy world with all this supernatural stuff, and they choose to
believe the word of a stout bookworm who calls the ideals that have worked
for 200 years crap. There was a definite "class" barrier in U5.. that was
there on purpose! There WAS no class barrier in U6, there were a few
beggars, and then the town of beggars (New Magincia), but they were all
proud and happy. It isn't like the people in U7.. these people resent Lord
British and they resent the nobles, so in turn, they resent the man who
saved their asses 6 times previous (even if he was a Fuzzy or a Bobbit in
the older games *g*)
I don't change my stance on U7, so I don't expect anyone else to. I enjoy
the level of detail and the depth they give you with the engine. I didn't
enjoy conversation strings, though. There's one thing to talk with someone
for hours.. there's another thing to be following one conversation thread
and then see a word that was from.. well.. what the hell does that word
refer to? Did that man say something about that earlier? Oh hell, I just
triggered the triad of inner strength explanation again.....
Amurath
> OK, how many people do you think will have met the Avatar? Have
> you ever met the President, or any other high muckety muck official
> type person?
I met Bill Clinton.
--
Amurath Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Owner of one "Give a Free Slap [tm]" card
"When I have understanding of computers I shall be
the Supreme Being" - Evil in "Time Bandits"
Lumina Dragon
Helgraf Dragon wrote:
>
>
> And the people of Britannia in the time period of U7 have never met
> their Avatar. So all they have to go by is the paintings, old stories
> that nobody tells much anymore.
>
> Introduce the Sullivan element. Someone who claims to be the Avatar and
> rips you off. You're going to be pretty suspicious of others claiming
> to be the Avatar now, yes?
Richter, Sprellic, a few others I forget.....
Richter is especially annoyed, too.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Paulon wrote:
>
> From the ashes, Helgraf Dragon arises!
>
> >zhentil wrote:
>
> >> No, but that's because I've never met you.
> >
> >And the people of Britannia in the time period of U7 have never met
> >their Avatar. So all they have to go by is the paintings, old stories
> >that nobody tells much anymore.
> >
> >Introduce the Sullivan element. Someone who claims to be the Avatar and
> >rips you off. You're going to be pretty suspicious of others claiming
> >to be the Avatar now, yes?
>
> Add the propaganda in the Book of the Fellowship, which goes out of its way
> to make the Avatar out to be a fool who took the worst possible option in
> all the adventures in the past. Even those who believe in the Avatar are
> likely to have doubts about competance after reading Batlin's book.
Of course, a lot of people are anti-Fellowship, remember.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> OK, how many people do you think will have met the Avatar? Have you ever
> met the President, or any other high muckety muck official type person?
Be that as it may here on Earth, it's a well known fact that in
britannia, everyone alive during the Avatar's visits has met him. He
goes out of his way to speak with every last person on the face of the
land.
> How good are the portraits and statues? I've seen plenty of both that bore
> only a passing resemblance to the person they represent.
Well enough, sicne Spark and some others say he looks like the
paintings.
> Even if he looks the same (but how can he with all those portraits?) then
> those statues and such would still have to be pretty good.
With a few exceptions, I don't think there WERE any Avatar statues in
U7. There might have been one in the museum, but I don't recall exactly.
-Lumina Dragon
Paulon
and addresses the awaiting newsgroup...
>Michael McIntyre wrote:
>> Even if he looks the same (but how can he with all those portraits?)
>> then those statues and such would still have to be pretty good.
>
>With a few exceptions, I don't think there WERE any Avatar statues in
>U7. There might have been one in the museum, but I don't recall exactly.
One Avatar statue in the Museum.
Michael McIntyre
wrote:
>"Michael McIntyre" wrote:
>> OK, how many people do you think will have met the Avatar? Have
>> you ever met the President, or any other high muckety muck official
>> type person?
>
>I met Bill Clinton.
I'm sorry. :)
Hushichan
although my 'first time' with an Ultima was VI, and that remains my absolute
favorite. For some reason I just love the graphics, the gameplay, and
everything about it.
I honestly don't understand why so many people claim Ultima VII as their
favorite, because personally I didn't think it was that good. Well, to be
blunt I thought it was awful, although it was outdone pretty quickly by VIII
and then later by IX...I suppose a lot of people just liked the expansive world
and improved graphics, as well as the ties to Sosaria and the original Triad of
Evil series...but I just thought the story was abysmal and an unwelcome change
from the previous trilogy. And that whole Fellowship/Guardian thing...ugh.
But then perhaps I don't have enough of an aesthetic taste to appreciate it. ;)
Because I do like platform shoes and polyester to some extent. *LOL* And I
really love Ultima VI. I guess I'm just a freak. ;)
CosmicPhoenix Dragon
Hushichan
impossible at the end, but it's really difficult to judge a person's gauge.
For example, the first Final Fantasy game was extremely challenging at the end
but not impossible, as was the fifth, but it still let me come away with a
sense of accomplishment and difficulty surmounted. However, some other games
in the series and other series have had completely ridiculous final levels and
final bosses that utterly destroy you at the last part...where's the fun in
that? If that happens, I usually lose interest after a while, put down the
game, and never pick it up again.
But then again it's very difficult to gauge who gets fed up, and where...so
whereas I might've become so irate with Evangelion 64's Longinus no Yari level,
someone else might've breezed past as if it were nothing, and while I loved the
battle against the sephiroth SEELE series, someone else might've thought, 'You
know...this sucks.'
So I suppose I'm playing devil's advocate against myself. c.c; Anyway, just my
bit. :)
CosmicPhoenix Dragon
Hushichan
>ARE the avatar!@$! There are paintings and statues, and legends that are a
>mile high!
That's true. I thought that setting VII so long after VI was really and truly
one of the lamest plot contrivances that existed. It was like Geriatric
Ultima, and while there's nothing wrong with older characters in RPGs...Iolo
honestly complained so much that I thought about finding him a Brittanian
full-care hostel. :P
Cos
~*CosmicPhoenix Dragon*~
Flirter With and Luster After Shawn of Buccaneer's Den,
and Fond Thinker of the Baths Guy
(now updated to hush...@REMOVEMEneo-tokyo.org)
Hushichan
these virtues and usually has companions with him; it's the idiot's own fault
if they just take it at face value that a pretender is the Avatar. As the
others have outlined, it would be really difficult for someone to masquerade as
this legendary hero without at least some kind of amazing and incredible
imitation ability, not to mention the virtues that make him who he is.
And Batlin's book notwithstanding, there honestly should've been more people
who remembered and sympathized. VII was just a fart in the face. Of course,
if it was a fart, that makes VIII explosive diarrhea and IX that plus chunks.
Hushichan
the fact that they were refreshingly non-linear and because of that, you could
still get lost and explore and do all kinds of things without connecting the
hooberbloozit with the foomawhatzit directly. Conversely, at the very
beginning of VII you're required, no matter how many times you've played it
before, to speak to these same idiots and get the same stupid information so
that you can get the same dumb password. I would've preferred it a great deal
more if you could've typed in your answers and just gotten on with the
adventure, like you could easily do with VI.
That's probably what I liked about the older games, the typing interface
allowed a lot more freedom in conversation and a little more realism too, I
think. Words might've popped up highlighted, but if you didn't remember them
they didn't do you much good. Names were there, but if you didn't remember
them and another person didn't mention them, you really couldn't ask about the
person.
There was also the freedom of picking and choosing your different companions
rather than being more or less led to them and having them move rather
predictably regardless of what you do...or on a set schedule of events that has
to happen due to a storyline advancing.
I think most of all I just resented the great raspberry that they blew at us in
VII, that seemed to me to be saying, 'Well, so you completed the first six
games and saved this land multiple times, transformed a society and made
everything fantastic...we're going to screw that up now and lead you on a new
story the way WE want to do it, freedom in exploration be damned.' That's why
I stopped playing the Ultima games for so long. I agree with the anti-VII
sentiment...I resented it too and greatly preferred IV to it.
But that's just me. :)
CosmicPhoenix Dragon
Samurai
[munch]
>But then perhaps I don't have enough of an aesthetic taste to
>appreciate it. ;) Because I do like platform shoes and
>polyester to some extent. *LOL* And I really love Ultima VI.
>I guess I'm just a freak. ;)
If you are, then a good many active Dragons are freaks with you. :)
I can name several offhand who list U6 as their favourite, I among
them.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\//// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a25
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
Corvid Dragon
21:27:34 GMT:
> Quoth hush...@aol.com (Hushichan):
> [munch]
> >But then perhaps I don't have enough of an aesthetic taste to
> >appreciate it. ;) Because I do like platform shoes and
> >polyester to some extent. *LOL* And I really love Ultima VI.
> >I guess I'm just a freak. ;)
>
> If you are, then a good many active Dragons are freaks with you. :)
> I can name several offhand who list U6 as their favourite, I among
> them.
::Corvid steps up on the stage and holds his hands up for silence. Then
he looks off toward backstage and motions to someone. Earsplitting
feedback is heard and everyone's hands fly to their ears. A red-shirted
ensign walks out, holding a green Telecaster, hands it to Corvid (who
mysteriously is now wearing baggy jeans, a ripped T-shirt, and a flannel
overshirt) and then walks back. Just as he would have made it, a
gigantic cream pie lands on him.::
Ah well, good thing we never named him.
::Corvid turns to the mic, lets down his ponytail, grows an Instant
Goatee(TM) and starts chugging power chords out of the (of course)
Dropped-D guitar. After a few bars of meaninglessly derivative D5's and
E5's, he growls into the mic::
No more maybes
Dupre's got rabies
Sitting on a horse
Amidst all the ladies
Yeah, I'm a freak
(of a Dragon)
Yeah, I'm a freak
::more power chords::
If only I could be as cool as you
As cool as you
Wings and tail, I'm a freak
Try to be different
Well buy your own Ultima
Seems it's in fashion
To need the oldschool games
I don't really know
How to give out a "cool" *SPLUT*
As boring as they come
Just tell me where to lurk
If I only I could be as cool as you
Freak
::Corvid bows, and vanishes before anyone can throttle him for getting
that GodAwful melody in their head::
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
as cool as you
Amurath
> BTW, forgot to mention...I kinda agree that a game shouldn't be nearly
> impossible at the end,
I'm definitely one that gets overly frustrated when the end of a
game is ridiculously difficult...or even just a particular battle
in a game is ridiculously difficult. And I refuse to cheat and
I hate turning any difficulty settings (if available) below 'normal'.
Yes, there needs to be a certain challenge to these things...and
what is challenging for one is not necessarily challenging for all
(for example, noticed a lot of people having trouble with the end
of BG2:ToB but I stomped right through it yet I cursed and swore
for two days over a mid-game battle that nobody else seemed to
have trouble with). I wonder how many others end up just uninstalling
never to play again?
Do I have a point? Not really. But I think with RPGs in particular, you
are playing out a story...call it a choose your own adventure...
and I play through mostly because I want to know what happens next in
the tale! Not because I want to spend two days trying to kill something.
But would I complain if the game were too easy? Depends.
Probably. :)
Michael McIntyre
>and then later by IX...I suppose a lot of people just liked the expansive world
Bah. U7 was at least an Ultima. U8... I dunno. I solved it when it came
out, but I'm still just not getting into it at all. When you'd rather be
re-arranging all the stuff stuck on the desktop than playing, maybe it's
time to give it up.
U9 was like Ultima Lite. It was Ultima-esque, but only sort of.
---
Michael McIntyre | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
Silvan Pagan Dragon -=UDIC=- | silvan...@ultima-dragons.org
Michael McIntyre
>who remembered and sympathized. VII was just a fart in the face. Of course,
>if it was a fart, that makes VIII explosive diarrhea and IX that plus chunks.
>:P
Peanut chunks...
Michael McIntyre
>before, to speak to these same idiots and get the same stupid information so
>that you can get the same dumb password. I would've preferred it a great deal
>more if you could've typed in your answers and just gotten on with the
>adventure, like you could easily do with VI.
OK, I'll grant you that. I suppose the only reason it didn't annoy me more
is that I've never played more than once in every five years or so. If I
were to replay now, a month after finishing U7, stuff like that would grate
on me a lot more than it did.
>story the way WE want to do it, freedom in exploration be damned.' That's why
>I stopped playing the Ultima games for so long. I agree with the anti-VII
>sentiment...I resented it too and greatly preferred IV to it.
Dunno. Maybe if I had played I-VI in sequence that would have had a more
profound effect on me than it did. I played U6 first, and loved it, and
then I loved U7, and especially SI. Most of the stuff people here say they
didn't like about those games has just never come up as an issue with me
for whatever reason.
Since then, I've tried all of the main series games, and I just couldn't
get into I-V because of my nitpicky nature. I could replay any of them
with a user interface at least as refined as that of U6, but U6 is the
cutoff for me as far as how crude of a game I can actually get into and
play.
---
Michael McIntyre | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
Silvan Pagan Dragon -=UDIC=- | silvan...@ultima-dragons.org
Lumina Dragon
Hushichan wrote:
>
> BTW, forgot to mention...I kinda agree that a game shouldn't be nearly
> impossible at the end, but it's really difficult to judge a person's gauge.
> For example, the first Final Fantasy game was extremely challenging at the end
> but not impossible, as was the fifth, but it still let me come away with a
> sense of accomplishment and difficulty surmounted.
Well, back in my day, we didn't have these wimpy save points right
before the end boss. And the bosses were DIFFICULT. Sometimes, you have
to trek through a long, hard cave, fighting creatures the likes of which
would make you whipper-snappers run home to momma. You fought four
bosses on the way TO the last boss. And then, after you've fought the
last boss for a long time, and both you and he are down on health, he
HEALS himself entirely! But I didn't give up and drop it there, now did
I?
These days, they'll let anyone be a boss. And they put save points all
over the place. Sometimes they even heal you right up for the fight! You
yungins wouldn't recognize a challenge if it jumped up an' bit ya.
'Bout the only challenge you guys have left is the Optional Superbosses.
And those are just OPTIONAL. No need to go out of your way to kill them
and break a sweat.
-Lumina Dragon
P.S. This rant is partially in jest -- I'm a fan of both old games and
new. Each has their points.
But you have to admit there's been a trend of making RPGs easier over
the years.
Lumina Dragon
Amurath wrote:
>
> "Hushichan" wrote:
> > BTW, forgot to mention...I kinda agree that a game shouldn't be nearly
> > impossible at the end,
>
> I'm definitely one that gets overly frustrated when the end of a
> game is ridiculously difficult...or even just a particular battle
> in a game is ridiculously difficult. And I refuse to cheat and
> I hate turning any difficulty settings (if available) below 'normal'.
Sure, it gets frustrating sometimes. WHen it does, turn off the game,
leave it a lone for a couple days, and try again with a cool head.
> Do I have a point? Not really. But I think with RPGs in particular, you
> are playing out a story...call it a choose your own adventure...
> and I play through mostly because I want to know what happens next in
> the tale! Not because I want to spend two days trying to kill something.
> But would I complain if the game were too easy? Depends.
> Probably. :)
See? Easy is also bad. There's no sense of accomplishment over a
challenge.
-Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre
>the years.
Thank goodness... I never did make it through many games in the old days
before cheat codes.
Hours of fighting... 99 lives... End boss... Die 99 times. Smash game
with sledge hammer.
I've actually beaten very few such games. If I get it all but the last
guy, I consider myself to have won.
Oh great... Vurps... Good thing you don't drink, Lumina. Beer + easy
cheese + triscuits + Dr. Pepper + cigarettes + hiccups... Man that's
gross...
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> >But you have to admit there's been a trend of making RPGs easier over
> >the years.
>
> Thank goodness... I never did make it through many games in the old days
> before cheat codes.
Cheat codes. BAH. I've said it before and I'll say it again: NEVER cheat
your first time therough, and endeavor to avoid walkthrus unless
hopelessly stuck beyond belief. (Or unless playing Alundra 2. Hard game.
Inconceivable level of difficulty. Puzzles the likes of which will make
you tear your feet off.)
> Hours of fighting... 99 lives... End boss... Die 99 times. Smash game
> with sledge hammer.
Oh yes, I forgot to include lives in my pseudorant.
> I've actually beaten very few such games. If I get it all but the last
> guy, I consider myself to have won.
Heh. There are games I took a solid break of MONTHS for being stuck at
the last guy.... then I resume and try some more. Eventually succeed.
Thus passed the final bosses of Lagoon and Ys III on the SNES, and Ys on
the SMS. Very likely among other games I'm forgetting.
-Lumina Dragon
Corvid Dragon
2001 21:34:44 -0500:
>
>
> Hushichan wrote:
> >
> > BTW, forgot to mention...I kinda agree that a game shouldn't be nearly
> > impossible at the end, but it's really difficult to judge a person's gauge.
> > For example, the first Final Fantasy game was extremely challenging at the end
> > but not impossible, as was the fifth, but it still let me come away with a
> > sense of accomplishment and difficulty surmounted.
>
> Well, back in my day, we didn't have these wimpy save points right
> before the end boss. And the bosses were DIFFICULT. Sometimes, you have
> to trek through a long, hard cave, fighting creatures the likes of which
> would make you whipper-snappers run home to momma. You fought four
> bosses on the way TO the last boss. And then, after you've fought the
> last boss for a long time, and both you and he are down on health, he
> HEALS himself entirely! But I didn't give up and drop it there, now did
> I?
Hee, Temple of Fiends revisited... ::chuckles:: Ah, yes, four floors of
utter madness, and THEN a boss who not only can kill my mage in one hit,
but can cast CUR4 and get all his life back? Right...
Of course, after the first time I fought him, I went back and earned
myself some six or ten extra levels. It was cake when I finally went
back.
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
it could be a glorious day
Attentive Dragon
"Corvid Dragon" <cor...@ultima-dragons.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.15ae2d6e624db7039896dd@news...
Temple of Fiends was hard no matter how high levels... Ice Dragons, Gas
Dragons... of course, leveling up made it "easier" but it was still a BITCH.
Espessially since you had to do the entire thing... no saving in the middle.
(I did "exit" and save after getting the Masamune, which made subsequent
trips through SO much easier... I love White Mages with swords...)
Lumina Dragon
Corvid Dragon wrote:
>
>
> Hee, Temple of Fiends revisited... ::chuckles:: Ah, yes, four floors of
> utter madness, and THEN a boss who not only can kill my mage in one hit,
> but can cast CUR4 and get all his life back? Right...
Heh heh. Congrats for catching the reference! You win a cookie. Your
choice of flavor; it's imaginary after all.
> Of course, after the first time I fought him, I went back and earned
> myself some six or ten extra levels. It was cake when I finally went
> back.
Heh. FF1 is a great game, IMO.
... Not the best on the system, by any means. THAT title goes to the
immortal Dragon Warrior IV.
... ... ...
I should pop one of these carts back in sometime and give it a replay.
Now, which game to choose, which game to choose.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> Temple of Fiends was hard no matter how high levels... Ice Dragons, Gas
> Dragons... of course, leveling up made it "easier" but it was still a BITCH.
> Espessially since you had to do the entire thing... no saving in the middle.
> (I did "exit" and save after getting the Masamune, which made subsequent
> trips through SO much easier... I love White Mages with swords...)
No saving in the middle? heck, you couldn't even save on the overworld
map like so many RPGs have allowed sicne the dawn of the SNES. Inns
only. And I think you had to pay first, whether you needed to rest or
not.
But despite the other obstacles in the Temple of Fiends, the worst of
them all was Chaos himself.
Now, if you fought a final boss with the kind of HP Chaos had THESE
days, you'd kill IT in one hit. But back then, 2,000 was a large number.
-Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre
>your first time therough, and endeavor to avoid walkthrus unless
>hopelessly stuck beyond belief. (Or unless playing Alundra 2. Hard game.
>Inconceivable level of difficulty. Puzzles the likes of which will make
>you tear your feet off.)
I wouldn't cheat in a real game. I cheat in shooters or shooter-like
games. For example Mechwarrior, Jane's Longbow, Duke Nuke'em and the like.
I also cheat in platform games after I get hopelessly stuck, though most of
the platform games I've liked have had little in the way of cheat codes.
Usually some form of warpage to get you to the hard levels without all the
helpful baubles you would have picked up along the way if you had played
through.
>Heh. There are games I took a solid break of MONTHS for being stuck at
>the last guy.... then I resume and try some more. Eventually succeed.
It's just not worth it to me. It's all timing and pattern recognition. I
see that I could get there if I worked at it long enough, but why bother?
I solved all the puzzles and stuff, and this is just a stupid test of my
patience for endless repetition. In the few games where I've actually
beaten the bad guy, the endgame is hardly worth the effort. (Donkey Kong
Country, Super Mario 2, 3, perhaps Super Mario World but I'm not sure, and
I think that completes the short list.)
zhentil
> No saving in the middle? heck, you couldn't even save on the overworld
> map like so many RPGs have allowed sicne the dawn of the SNES. Inns
> only. And I think you had to pay first, whether you needed to rest or
> not.
By the way, the games FF2 and FF3 (both for NES, never released in the US)
allowed you to save on the overworld map. And FF2 is just a tad less difficult
than FF1 (and the plot is better, because there -IS- a plot, so it's 10 times
better). Although extremely linear.
--
"we've been Waiting fOr summEr but winter came
we've been enterIng people'S hoMes but it was snowing in therE"
- victor tsoi
Attentive Dragon
"Michael McIntyre" <silvan...@ultima-dragons.org> wrote in message
news:u4aaktgemaos7b0ru...@4ax.com...
> >Cheat codes. BAH. I've said it before and I'll say it again: NEVER cheat
> >your first time therough, and endeavor to avoid walkthrus unless
> >hopelessly stuck beyond belief. (Or unless playing Alundra 2. Hard game.
> >Inconceivable level of difficulty. Puzzles the likes of which will make
> >you tear your feet off.)
>
> I wouldn't cheat in a real game. I cheat in shooters or shooter-like
> games. For example Mechwarrior, Jane's Longbow, Duke Nuke'em and the
like.
>
> I also cheat in platform games after I get hopelessly stuck, though most
of
> the platform games I've liked have had little in the way of cheat codes.
> Usually some form of warpage to get you to the hard levels without all the
> helpful baubles you would have picked up along the way if you had played
> through.
>
> >Heh. There are games I took a solid break of MONTHS for being stuck at
> >the last guy.... then I resume and try some more. Eventually succeed.
>
> It's just not worth it to me. It's all timing and pattern recognition. I
> see that I could get there if I worked at it long enough, but why bother?
> I solved all the puzzles and stuff, and this is just a stupid test of my
> patience for endless repetition. In the few games where I've actually
> beaten the bad guy, the endgame is hardly worth the effort. (Donkey Kong
> Country, Super Mario 2, 3, perhaps Super Mario World but I'm not sure, and
> I think that completes the short list.)
There are a couple of games that have this sort of: figure out how to beat
the boss (basically, which part in which order, and takes a long time) that
had good endings:
ChronoTrigger
Suikoden
Final Fantasy VIII
Lunar
Lunar2 (ANNOYNG as HELL final boss.)
etc.
Attentive Dragon
"Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B450E88...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Attentive Dragon wrote:
> >
> > Temple of Fiends was hard no matter how high levels... Ice Dragons, Gas
> > Dragons... of course, leveling up made it "easier" but it was still a
BITCH.
> > Espessially since you had to do the entire thing... no saving in the
middle.
> > (I did "exit" and save after getting the Masamune, which made subsequent
> > trips through SO much easier... I love White Mages with swords...)
>
> No saving in the middle? heck, you couldn't even save on the overworld
> map like so many RPGs have allowed sicne the dawn of the SNES. Inns
> only. And I think you had to pay first, whether you needed to rest or
> not.
That's true, you had to save at Coneria town, and either walk or take the
airship to the Temple, starting from Level 1 each time. :(
> But despite the other obstacles in the Temple of Fiends, the worst of
> them all was Chaos himself.
>
> Now, if you fought a final boss with the kind of HP Chaos had THESE
> days, you'd kill IT in one hit. But back then, 2,000 was a large number.
Well, I beat Chaos on the first try... then again I was level 50 all around,
and had the Nintendo Power strategy guide telling me what to throw at him...
Corvid Dragon
::nods emphatically:: Indeed. Once I got the Masamune (which, IIRC, was
the Masmune b/c of a seven-character limit or something, hence Xcalber),
leveling was cake. Hm, evil terrifying dragon... Knight with Xcalber,
attack. Ninja with Katana, attack. WW with Masmune, attack. BW with
CatClaw, attack. Yay, it's dead! Repeat as necessary. Tiamat wasn't
nearly so hard the second time around. Kary neither.
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
this is the way the world ends
Corvid Dragon
> > But despite the other obstacles in the Temple of Fiends, the worst of
> > them all was Chaos himself.
> >
> > Now, if you fought a final boss with the kind of HP Chaos had THESE
> > days, you'd kill IT in one hit. But back then, 2,000 was a large number.
>
> Well, I beat Chaos on the first try... then again I was level 50 all around,
> and had the Nintendo Power strategy guide telling me what to throw at him...
Good God man, level 50? I was 35, and I thought I was crazy. yeesh.
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
damn Saftey Monkey
thetragicclown
> these virtues and usually has companions with him; it's the idiot's own
fault
> if they just take it at face value that a pretender is the Avatar. As the
> others have outlined, it would be really difficult for someone to
masquerade as
> this legendary hero without at least some kind of amazing and incredible
> imitation ability, not to mention the virtues that make him who he is.
>
> And Batlin's book notwithstanding, there honestly should've been more
> people who remembered and sympathized. VII was just a fart in the face.
> Of course, if it was a fart, that makes VIII explosive diarrhea and IX
that
> plus chunks.
> :P
>
> Cos
How many people here would I alienate/annoy/inspire-a-murderous-frenzy-in if
I was to state that my first Ultima game was VIII and that I absolutely
loved it?
*takes to the sky on his giant, magical flying silver ankh before the angry
mob can descend upon him*
The Tragic Clown Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
Michael McIntyre
>I was to state that my first Ultima game was VIII and that I absolutely
>loved it?
If you can figure out how to get my sound working in U8 with my SB PCI 128
I'll say you're an Ultima Deity...
Corvid Dragon
[snip]
> *takes to the sky on his giant, magical flying silver ankh before the angry
> mob can descend upon him*
*gets out Polaroid*
*CLICK*
That's an idea for transportation I'll have to remember.
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
it's friday i'm in love
Samurai
[munch]
>How many people here would I alienate/annoy/inspire-a-
>murderous-frenzy-in if I was to state that my first Ultima
>game was VIII and that I absolutely loved it?
Not I. :) The patched U8 was a reasonably decent game, IMHO, just
not as good as its predecessors in most respects. The music was
awsome, though -- almost worth playing for that and the Guardian's
speech alone!
Lumina Dragon
Corvid Dragon wrote:
>
> For lo! Attentive Dragon was wroth, and spouted forth:
> > "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B450E88...@hotmail.com...
> [munch]
> > > But despite the other obstacles in the Temple of Fiends, the worst of
> > > them all was Chaos himself.
> > >
> > > Now, if you fought a final boss with the kind of HP Chaos had THESE
> > > days, you'd kill IT in one hit. But back then, 2,000 was a large number.
> >
> > Well, I beat Chaos on the first try... then again I was level 50 all around,
> > and had the Nintendo Power strategy guide telling me what to throw at him...
>
> Good God man, level 50? I was 35, and I thought I was crazy. yeesh.
OK you two, then try THIS:
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/final_fantasy_solo.txt
Muah.
And no, I haven't tried such a thing.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> >Heh. There are games I took a solid break of MONTHS for being stuck at
> >the last guy.... then I resume and try some more. Eventually succeed.
>
> It's just not worth it to me. It's all timing and pattern recognition. I
> see that I could get there if I worked at it long enough, but why bother?
> I solved all the puzzles and stuff, and this is just a stupid test of my
> patience for endless repetition. In the few games where I've actually
> beaten the bad guy, the endgame is hardly worth the effort. (Donkey Kong
> Country, Super Mario 2, 3, perhaps Super Mario World but I'm not sure, and
> I think that completes the short list.)
Yeah.... but none of those are RPGs. RPGs have betetr endings.
Usually. There are always exceptions.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> There are a couple of games that have this sort of: figure out how to beat
> the boss (basically, which part in which order, and takes a long time) that
> had good endings:
>
> ChronoTrigger
> Suikoden
> Final Fantasy VIII
> Lunar
Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and heal
like crazy.
> Lunar2 (ANNOYNG as HELL final boss.)
In the remake, yes. While every other boss was made weaker then before
(some more than others, and some removed entirely), The Big Guy was made
insanely mighty in compensation.
-Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre
>not as good as its predecessors in most respects. The music was
>awsome, though -- almost worth playing for that and the Guardian's
>speech alone!
The music is well-done, but dull IMHO. They get points for technique but I
really don't like any of the themes all that much. Its music isn't
memorable in spite of being much more involved and well-sequenced than the
likes of Stones.
As to the Guardian's voice... What voice?
*CRACK* ---silence---*POP* *POP* *CRACK* (speaker blowing spikes all... it's trying to do SOMETHING but it ain't doing what it's supposed to...)
Michael McIntyre
>
>Usually. There are always exceptions.
Truthfully I haven't found very many RPGs that were playable. I already
ruled out U1-5 so that tells you something. Most of the console RPGs I've
tried have had a seriously crappy interface. Especially WRT savegames,
though not having a keyboard is a real pisser too.
Of the RPGs I've solved, I suppose U6 had the best ending. U9 had the
worst.
Amarande
<kewh...@hotmail.com> dumped into the public bit supply:
>In the remake, yes. While every other boss was made weaker then before
>(some more than others, and some removed entirely), The Big Guy was made
>insanely mighty in compensation.
Ehh, can't be much different from Icewind Dale, then. In IWD, nearly
the whole game was easy as cake, then the final boss was insane. :>
And IWD was actually a good game. :>
Aurelian Dragon
Attentive Dragon
DEAR GOD?!? ARE THEY SERIOUS?
*sputter.*
Attentive Dragon
>
>
> Attentive Dragon wrote:
> >
> > There are a couple of games that have this sort of: figure out how to
beat
> > the boss (basically, which part in which order, and takes a long time)
that
> > had good endings:
> >
> > ChronoTrigger
> > Suikoden
> > Final Fantasy VIII
> > Lunar
>
> Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
> defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and heal
> like crazy.
Well, Xenobia was the hardest... Magic Emporer G. wasn't quite as hard as
her... neither one really ranks up there with "insane" final bosses I
guess...
> > Lunar2 (ANNOYNG as HELL final boss.)
>
> In the remake, yes. While every other boss was made weaker then before
> (some more than others, and some removed entirely), The Big Guy was made
> insanely mighty in compensation.
It took me several tries... realizing that I would be fully healed in the
middle... and realizing that he did almost NO damage if I was properly
arranged on the battlefield (up to the point I am healed by Lucia.) Basing
my strategy on that information (which I gathered from fighting, and LOOSING
to him over a couple of days) I hit him HARD and FAST while he was still
"weak." I managed to take out one or two of his arms early.
As it was, I used up my LAST bit of MP on the finishing blow. 2 of my
characters were dead, the rest down to negligable hit points, and I wouldn't
have been able to do ANYTHING but physical attacks. My last magic attack (I
think it was Leo or Alex) finished him.
I nearly crapped my pants when the THIRD boss stage started up, but relaxed
when I realized it was really just a formality (and when Lucia healed me
again...) ;)
Attentive Dragon
"Amarande" <ava...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:re4dktkkhdc5ft0u8...@4ax.com...
Well, so was Lunar 2... ;) It's true though... the way the bosses were set
up was very easy. You could always tell which attack they were about to use
(by their stance) and with a little forethought it was possible to breeze
through most of them. Then you get to Zophar... UGH! OW. I'm not sure if
I could duplicate the feat (luckily you are given the option to save AFTER
defeating him.)
Attentive Dragon
> >Yeah.... but none of those are RPGs. RPGs have betetr endings.
> >
> >Usually. There are always exceptions.
>
> Truthfully I haven't found very many RPGs that were playable. I already
> ruled out U1-5 so that tells you something. Most of the console RPGs I've
> tried have had a seriously crappy interface. Especially WRT savegames,
> though not having a keyboard is a real pisser too.
>
> Of the RPGs I've solved, I suppose U6 had the best ending. U9 had the
> worst.
It depends on your taste also... platform RPGs are, for the most part,
seriously linear, and less interactive than Ultima (in terms of
conversations, etc.) This doesn't mean they aren't great games and
immersive worlds. Games such as Lunar 1 and 2, Suikoden, etc are examples
of the best the platform RPG genre has to offer, and I frankly enjoyed Lunar
2, and Suikoden every bit as much as any of the Ultima's I played. There is
less replay value sometimes, due to the linearity, but they can be often
quite entertaining if well made.
Samurai
[munch]
>Truthfully I haven't found very many RPGs that were playable.
Fallout and Planescape are the ones to try ATM, IMHO. I'm playing
through Fallout now, and enjoying it quite a bit. Though the combat
is quite tricky (and thus irritating at times -- one of the reasons I
likes U6 was that there wasn't much fighting) the interaction in the
game largely makes up for it.
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3B4651C1...@hotmail.com...
> >
> > http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/final_fantasy_solo.txt
>
> DEAR GOD?!? ARE THEY SERIOUS?
They sound it. I'm not too inclined to put their theory to the test,
however.
You can, if you like.
> *sputter.*
Agreed.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> Well, so was Lunar 2... ;)
One of the best games I have ever played.
> It's true though... the way the bosses were set
> up was very easy. You could always tell which attack they were about to use
> (by their stance) and with a little forethought it was possible to breeze
> through most of them.
And that also applied in the SCD version. However, there were some
bosses cut in the remake and many bosses weakened for it. I'll give you
an example at the end of this post, after suitable Spoiler Space.
> Then you get to Zophar... UGH! OW. I'm not sure if
> I could duplicate the feat (luckily you are given the option to save AFTER
> defeating him.)
Yes, Omni-Zophar (the technical term for that form of Zophar) is ten
kinds of pain, and eleven kinds of merciless death and destruction and
Bad Things.
-Lumina Dragon
Impending Spoiler Space.
SSSS
S PPPP
SSS P P OOO
S PPPP O O IIIII
SSSS P O O I L
P O O I L EEEEE
OOO I L E RRRR
IIIII L EEEE R R
LLLLL E RRRR
EEEEE R R
R R
SSSS
S PPPP
SSS P P AAA
S PPPP A A CCC
SSSS P AAAAA C C EEEEE
P A A C E
A A C C EEEE
CCC E
EEEEE
OK, here we are.
Black Wizard Borgan, the Big Bad Bane from Neo-Vane, was a LOT harder in
the SCD version of the game than in the remake. Indeed, the corpulent
one was quite possibly the hardest of all normal bosses in tat game. The
three orbs orbiting him were separate targets from him in the first
game. Not to mention you had to take at least one of them down in order
to injure the large mage. ANd he had a verys tong spell called Gravity
Bomb, devastating your group when cast.
I faced him in the PSX version and was astonished at how fast he fell.
Bah.
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3B46548E...@hotmail.com...
> >
> > Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
> > defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and heal
> > like crazy.
>
> Well, Xenobia was the hardest... Magic Emporer G. wasn't quite as hard as
> her... neither one really ranks up there with "insane" final bosses I
> guess...
Big G was, however, very very cool.
> > In the remake, yes. While every other boss was made weaker then before
> > (some more than others, and some removed entirely), The Big Guy was made
> > insanely mighty in compensation.
>
> It took me several tries... realizing that I would be fully healed in the
> middle... and realizing that he did almost NO damage if I was properly
> arranged on the battlefield
Beaning spread out. :)
> (up to the point I am healed by Lucia.) Basing
> my strategy on that information (which I gathered from fighting, and LOOSING
> to him over a couple of days) I hit him HARD and FAST while he was still
> "weak." I managed to take out one or two of his arms early.
Can't even touch the rest until then; might as well off what you can
whie you can.
> As it was, I used up my LAST bit of MP on the finishing blow. 2 of my
> characters were dead, the rest down to negligable hit points, and I wouldn't
> have been able to do ANYTHING but physical attacks. My last magic attack (I
> think it was Leo or Alex) finished him.
ALEX? Hiro. Alex was SSSC's.
And remind me to tell you about Z's palace from the SCD version.
> I nearly crapped my pants when the THIRD boss stage started up, but relaxed
> when I realized it was really just a formality (and when Lucia healed me
> again...) ;)
Heh.
-Lumina Dragon
Attentive [to Lumina]: Tell me about Z's palace from the SCD version.
Lumina [to Attentive]: Thanks, I had almost forgotten (yeah right).
SPOILER SPACE
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
MORE SPOILER SPACE
...
Hmm, here we are. Zophar's Palace, in the SCD version, did NOT lock you
in, first off. You could leave and do things on the world still. Now on
to the ways it was harder: The penultimate floor had it's stairs onward
blocked, and you had to re-face the four Dragon Fiends. Fortunately,
there was a statue in that penultimate floor. I really missed that
statue in the remake. After the trip of Z's palace, it woulde have been
muchly desired.
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> It depends on your taste also... platform RPGs are, for the most part,
> seriously linear, and less interactive than Ultima (in terms of
> conversations, etc.) This doesn't mean they aren't great games and
> immersive worlds.
Heck, it's because of its linearity that it can BE that immersive.
IMHO, when a game is linear enough -- AND has a good enough 'hook' in
its plot; both are required -- it can be a very compelling game indeed.
It's like, "OK, I just HAVE to see what's next before I take a break."
(sees what's next) "Ooh! Now I have to see what's next...." Keeps your
interest.
I like a compelling story. Then again, I also like sidequests, or
alternate-pathed stories.... I'm rather lenient about what features I
want in a RPG.
> Games such as Lunar 1 and 2, Suikoden, etc are examples
> of the best the platform RPG genre has to offer, and I frankly enjoyed Lunar
> 2, and Suikoden every bit as much as any of the Ultima's I played. There is
> less replay value sometimes, due to the linearity, but they can be often
> quite entertaining if well made.
Have you played Suikoden 2? Surpasses its predecessor in every area. A
very must-play game.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> >Yeah.... but none of those are RPGs. RPGs have betetr endings.
> >
> >Usually. There are always exceptions.
>
> Truthfully I haven't found very many RPGs that were playable. I already
> ruled out U1-5 so that tells you something. Most of the console RPGs I've
> tried have had a seriously crappy interface. Especially WRT savegames,
> though not having a keyboard is a real pisser too.
Bah. Do you want someone to read it to you, too, or can you handle that
much effort?
Sorry about the tone of that, but really, I never let difficulty prevent
me from enjoying a game.
And I have played some gaems which threw MUCH difficulty at me. I always
manage to overlook such things and see the game for the game.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
thetragicclown wrote:
>
>
> How many people here would I alienate/annoy/inspire-a-murderous-frenzy-in if
> I was to state that my first Ultima game was VIII and that I absolutely
> loved it?
There's nothign wrong with Ultima VIII.
It's not one of my favorites, but I did enjoy it.
> *takes to the sky on his giant, magical flying silver ankh before the angry
> mob can descend upon him*
Nifty. I want one.
-Lumina Dragon, remembering that he's a Dragon and can fly anyway
Attentive Dragon
> > Games such as Lunar 1 and 2, Suikoden, etc are examples
> > of the best the platform RPG genre has to offer, and I frankly enjoyed
Lunar
> > 2, and Suikoden every bit as much as any of the Ultima's I played.
There is
> > less replay value sometimes, due to the linearity, but they can be often
> > quite entertaining if well made.
>
> Have you played Suikoden 2? Surpasses its predecessor in every area. A
> very must-play game.
Started it. I was impressed, but got stuck on a certain boss (this thing in
the sewer when I'm looking for that Winged kid.) I'll have to replay, now
that I have a "all the stars of destiny" save game of the original Suikoden.
Attentive Dragon
>
>
> Attentive Dragon wrote:
> >
> > "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B46548E...@hotmail.com...
> > >
> > > Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
> > > defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and heal
> > > like crazy.
> >
> > Well, Xenobia was the hardest... Magic Emporer G. wasn't quite as hard
as
> > her... neither one really ranks up there with "insane" final bosses I
> > guess...
>
> Big G was, however, very very cool.
My favorite. I love John Pruitt's voice as well. :)
> > have been able to do ANYTHING but physical attacks. My last magic
attack (I
> > think it was Leo or Alex) finished him.
>
> ALEX? Hiro. Alex was SSSC's.
Doh. I always confuse them. Next thing you know, i'll start calling Ruby
Nall.
> SPOILER SPACE
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> MORE SPOILER SPACE
>
> ...
>
> Hmm, here we are. Zophar's Palace, in the SCD version, did NOT lock you
> in, first off. You could leave and do things on the world still. Now on
I hated that. It seriously limited the resources I could level at Zophar -
I had to choose between two options:
1. Conserve MP, and heal using items, forcing me to be low on such items by
the time I get to Big Z.
2. Heal using magic, leaving me scarce on Star Lights and Silverlights when
I get to Big Z.
I managed to find a balance between the two, but being able to leave Zophars
castle to buy new starlights, etc, after having levelled up in there for
awhile would have made it a lot easier. Like I said, I ended up being out
of all MP and HP items, down to almost dead, just Hiro and Leo left
standing, with no MP left, when Zophar finally dropped.
EGADS.
> to the ways it was harder: The penultimate floor had it's stairs onward
> blocked, and you had to re-face the four Dragon Fiends. Fortunately,
That would have sucked, even being able to leave. I hated those bosses.
> there was a statue in that penultimate floor. I really missed that
> statue in the remake. After the trip of Z's palace, it woulde have been
> muchly desired.
Ah... if that had been there, I could have used MP with impunity, knowing
there was a recharge coming eventually, and saving Starlights and Healing
items for the final battle.
Michael McIntyre
>much effort?
If it's not fun, why bother?
>Sorry about the tone of that, but really, I never let difficulty prevent
>me from enjoying a game.
Well, you seem to have nothing better to do with your time. Your list of
games is enormous, but can you:
make moderately involved car repairs?
do auto body work (fixing dents, rust patches, etc.)?
build moderately complex projects out of wood?
cobble together metal stuff out of bar stock, angle iron and pop rivets?
make tuned windchimes?
fashion copper into flowers, butterflies and the like?
install or repair PVC plumbing?
install or repair copper plumbing?
re-shingle a roof?
remove and re-install a toilet?
repair the guts of a toilet?
fix leaky plumbing fixtures?
replace a sillcock?
rip out a floor and replace it with an entirely new one?
install or extend an electrical circuit?
install and maintain a pond with waterfall, plants, fish, etc?
repair and maintain home appliances?
repair holes in drywall?
build fairly simple stuff out of bricks?
make nifty patterned stepping stones out of concrete?
install a chain-link fence?
play a musical instrument?
write musical compostions?
paint with acrylics or watercolors?
arrange flowers?
etc. etc. etc.
Games take time. I make time for the right games, but I don't like being
frustrated when I have such a huge array of sources of entertainment from
which to choose.
>And I have played some gaems which threw MUCH difficulty at me. I always
>manage to overlook such things and see the game for the game.
A game gets 15 minutes, tops. If I'm not liking it, into the trash bin it
goes. Plain and simple.
But don't imply that I don't have an imagination. I have a great many
things sitting around here that I built from my own plans, or just by the
seat of my pants. I've created things out of wood, metal, earth, plants,
etc. I don't have time to waste with a game that has such a crappy
interface that it's an impediment to getting into the story.
Life's too short, and the list of things to do just keeps growing.
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3B479001...@hotmail.com...
> >
> >
> > Attentive Dragon wrote:
> > >
> > > "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B46548E...@hotmail.com...
> > > >
> > > > Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
> > > > defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and heal
> > > > like crazy.
> > >
> > > Well, Xenobia was the hardest... Magic Emporer G. wasn't quite as hard
> as
> > > her... neither one really ranks up there with "insane" final bosses I
> > > guess...
> >
> > Big G was, however, very very cool.
>
> My favorite. I love John Pruitt's voice as well. :)
Blasphemer! It's John Truitt! (One of the two Lunar voice actors I know
by name.)
> > > have been able to do ANYTHING but physical attacks. My last magic
> attack (I
> > > think it was Leo or Alex) finished him.
> >
> > ALEX? Hiro. Alex was SSSC's.
>
> Doh. I always confuse them. Next thing you know, i'll start calling Ruby
> Nall.
Well, they DO have the same voice actor (L1's all and Ruby are both done
by Jennifer Stigile, who also did some of the singing in both games (and
one of the songs in Vanguard Bandits). Needless to say, this is the
other voice actor's name I know.)
> > SPOILER SPACE
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > MORE SPOILER SPACE
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Hmm, here we are. Zophar's Palace, in the SCD version, did NOT lock you
> > in, first off. You could leave and do things on the world still. Now on
>
> I hated that. It seriously limited the resources I could level at Zophar -
> I had to choose between two options:
>
> 1. Conserve MP, and heal using items, forcing me to be low on such items by
> the time I get to Big Z.
> 2. Heal using magic, leaving me scarce on Star Lights and Silverlights when
> I get to Big Z.
Save all Silver Lights from the beginning of the game, you should have
almost a full 20.
> I managed to find a balance between the two, but being able to leave Zophars
> castle to buy new starlights, etc, after having levelled up in there for
> awhile would have made it a lot easier. Like I said, I ended up being out
> of all MP and HP items, down to almost dead, just Hiro and Leo left
> standing, with no MP left, when Zophar finally dropped.
I used Ronnie for healing, using up only a few star lights on the way
up, and no Silvers.
> EGADS.
>
> > to the ways it was harder: The penultimate floor had it's stairs onward
> > blocked, and you had to re-face the four Dragon Fiends. Fortunately,
>
> That would have sucked, even being able to leave. I hated those bosses.
>
> > there was a statue in that penultimate floor. I really missed that
> > statue in the remake. After the trip of Z's palace, it woulde have been
> > muchly desired.
>
> Ah... if that had been there, I could have used MP with impunity, knowing
> there was a recharge coming eventually, and saving Starlights and Healing
> items for the final battle.
Especially when you can save anywhere. Reminds me -- I saved in Z's
palace on a different game than the one I had outside, in case I did
have such an emergency waiting. If yer interested in learning all sorts
of other SCD/PSX differentiations in Lunar 2 (the only one I have the
SCD ver of), I could tell you by email or on the Weyr.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3B4792D9...@hotmail.com...
>
> > > Games such as Lunar 1 and 2, Suikoden, etc are examples
> > > of the best the platform RPG genre has to offer, and I frankly enjoyed
> Lunar
> > > 2, and Suikoden every bit as much as any of the Ultima's I played.
> There is
> > > less replay value sometimes, due to the linearity, but they can be often
> > > quite entertaining if well made.
> >
> > Have you played Suikoden 2? Surpasses its predecessor in every area. A
> > very must-play game.
>
> Started it. I was impressed, but got stuck on a certain boss (this thing in
> the sewer when I'm looking for that Winged kid.)
Ah yes, that's one of the few bosses which was hard relative to level
(love that scaled experience).
> I'll have to replay, now
> that I have a "all the stars of destiny" save game of the original Suikoden.
ALso remember to have that save at the FINAL save point, in Gregminster
Castle itself. Dunno why, but it has to be there to work.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> >Bah. Do you want someone to read it to you, too, or can you handle that
> >much effort?
>
> If it's not fun, why bother?
>
> >Sorry about the tone of that, but really, I never let difficulty prevent
> >me from enjoying a game.
>
> Well, you seem to have nothing better to do with your time.
Well, none of these jobs see fit to hire me just yet, and I'm not one
for outdoorsy stuff. Reading my books and playing my games is about all
I have for recreation.
Oh dear, I am very much NOT the kind of person with skills like that.
Pity; if I had thsoe skills, it might expand the amount of places I
could apply at for a job.
> Games take time. I make time for the right games, but I don't like being
> frustrated when I have such a huge array of sources of entertainment from
> which to choose.
Yes, RPGs take a LOT of time. But if you have a solid 1-2 hour time
block each (or even most) day(s), then you can slowly work your way
through them. It's a nice way to forget the cares of the world and relax
for a brief time.
> >And I have played some games which threw MUCH difficulty at me. I always
> >manage to overlook such things and see the game for the game.
>
> A game gets 15 minutes, tops. If I'm not liking it, into the trash bin it
> goes. Plain and simple.
FIFTEEN MINUTES? The intro scenes average at least five of that. I think
you ougt to allot at least a solid hour.
> But don't imply that I don't have an imagination. I have a great many
> things sitting around here that I built from my own plans, or just by the
> seat of my pants. I've created things out of wood, metal, earth, plants,
> etc. I don't have time to waste with a game that has such a crappy
> interface that it's an impediment to getting into the story.
>
> Life's too short, and the list of things to do just keeps growing.
<sigh> But still, letting something like interface get in the way? Play
a game for a couple hours and the interface becomes almost instinctive!
Oh well, your tastes are apparently too differwent from mine for me to
sway you...
-Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre
>
>Well, none of these jobs see fit to hire me just yet, and I'm not one
>for outdoorsy stuff. Reading my books and playing my games is about all
>I have for recreation.
Well, that's only just recently too. You've been a hardcore gamer for
years. Even when I was unemployed I never spent THAT much time gaming.
Largely due to financial constraints, true enough, plus you and I are a
generation apart, and the games available during my big gaming years were
all pretty crappy. I didn't like crappy games much when that's all there
was to choose from either, so it's not just disdain for old games. I
played AT a lot of games back then, but I seldom played anything seriously
unless it had a certain something that really appealed to me.
I was a computer potato, true enough, but I spent most of my time yakking
on BBSes, much as I spend much of my computer time now yakking here.
During my windows of computer time I can either socialize or play games.
Notice how I disappeared for long stretches when I was playing U6 through
SI. Since this and other groups like it is the only form of social contact
I have, I feel more compulsion to satisfy my urge to chat than to play
games, and usually only play as a last resort.
FWIW traffic here has been slow and my bordeom level has been increasing.
It's too damn hot outside to do much (and my workshop is in a non
air-conditioned out-building), so I've been taking another look at U4.
Maybe if I get INTENSELY bored I'll be able to plod through it long enough
to give it another chance to hook me. I'm not making any promises though.
U4 seems to be all about not having a clue on earth where you're supposed
to be, and getting hammered by wave after endless wave of stupid little
stick figure monsters.
>> make moderately involved car repairs?
...
>> arrange flowers?
>> etc. etc. etc.
>
>Oh dear, I am very much NOT the kind of person with skills like that.
>Pity; if I had thsoe skills, it might expand the amount of places I
>could apply at for a job.
Maybe. I'm not saying anything there. In spite of these skills, I still
don't have anything marketable other than my CDL (commercial driver's
license). My education has amounted to all of nothing, and while I can do
all of the aforementioned things to some degree, I'm not good enough in any
one area to do it for a living. Getting into the trades isn't as easy as
you might think, and I was too much of a snob to take any vocational
training in high school, so I denied myself the opportunity to go through
the whole apprentice/journeyman thing. The price I pay for being a jack of
all trades is that I do no one thing to professional standards. Still, I'm
pretty resourceful, and rarely have to pay anyone to do anything for me.
>Yes, RPGs take a LOT of time. But if you have a solid 1-2 hour time
>block each (or even most) day(s), then you can slowly work your way
>through them. It's a nice way to forget the cares of the world and relax
>for a brief time.
True, if the game is entertaining and relaxing. Being cheap or free helps
too. Figuring out what isn't going to suck is a hard thing when they cost
$40-50 a pop. Especially when your thinking is as binary as mine.
>FIFTEEN MINUTES? The intro scenes average at least five of that. I think
>you ougt to allot at least a solid hour.
15 minutes of gameplay. Intro scenes don't count, though I really really
hate it when there's an awesome, kick-ass intro for a game that totally
sucks. Such is frequently the case, I'm afraid.
><sigh> But still, letting something like interface get in the way? Play
>a game for a couple hours and the interface becomes almost instinctive!
Not to me. I've played U4 for a total of a several hours now and I just
can't get past it. Everything is so hacked together and cheesy that it
just spoils all my fun. Remake U4 with the U6 engine and it's a player.
>
>Oh well, your tastes are apparently too differwent from mine for me to
>sway you...
Basically, yes. To you the game is worth whatever it takes to play it. To
me, the interface and the game are one. If you had to read a really good
book one fortune cookie at a time, would you read it? I probably would
open a few cookies and then say piss on it.
>
> -Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon
That's where I saved. I tried to start a new game, and it let me do it with
the saved game, so I guess it worked!
I'll play through Suikoden II once I finish Chrono Trigger (again) and Final
Fantasy IV (for the first time).
Just got Final Fantasy Chronicals. Yum!
Attentive Dragon
>
>
> Attentive Dragon wrote:
> >
> > "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B479001...@hotmail.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Attentive Dragon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B46548E...@hotmail.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wait, wait wait wait. L1's boss wasn't all that hard, if you act
> > > > > defensively. WD Protect when you see his Death spell coming, and
heal
> > > > > like crazy.
> > > >
> > > > Well, Xenobia was the hardest... Magic Emporer G. wasn't quite as
hard
> > as
> > > > her... neither one really ranks up there with "insane" final bosses
I
> > > > guess...
> > >
> > > Big G was, however, very very cool.
> >
> > My favorite. I love John Pruitt's voice as well. :)
>
> Blasphemer! It's John Truitt! (One of the two Lunar voice actors I know
> by name.)
Wow. You're right. I actually asked my wife, and she thought it was Pruitt
also! We even popped in the "Making of Lunar" CD and went to Working
Designs' website... but it is Truitt after all! Well... either way... he
does Ghaleon OH so well... ;)
> Save all Silver Lights from the beginning of the game, you should have
> almost a full 20.
Heh. I should have done that. I had about 2 by the end.
> Especially when you can save anywhere. Reminds me -- I saved in Z's
> palace on a different game than the one I had outside, in case I did
> have such an emergency waiting. If yer interested in learning all sorts
> of other SCD/PSX differentiations in Lunar 2 (the only one I have the
> SCD ver of), I could tell you by email or on the Weyr.
I'd love that! Lunar 2 ranks up there as one of my all time faves.
Corvid Dragon
> >Bah. Do you want someone to read it to you, too, or can you handle that
> >much effort?
>
> If it's not fun, why bother?
>
> >Sorry about the tone of that, but really, I never let difficulty prevent
> >me from enjoying a game.
>
> Well, you seem to have nothing better to do with your time. Your list of
> games is enormous, but can you:
>
> Life's too short, and the list of things to do just keeps growing.
*applause from the peanut gallery*
--
'til next sign,
Corvid Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
d++++ e+* N T--- Om+++ UK1234!5!6!7'!S'!89 u+++ uC++++ uF uG++
uLB uA++ nC+ nH+ nP- nI nPT nS++ nT- wM wC++ wS wI+ yz+ a20
fwiw, i can and do fix my own car
Michael McIntyre
>[snip Lumina being put in his place]
>> Life's too short, and the list of things to do just keeps growing.
>
>*applause from the peanut gallery*
*SP bows*
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> "Lumina Dragon" <kewh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3B48A8CD...@hotmail.com...
> >
> > Blasphemer! It's John Truitt! (One of the two Lunar voice actors I know
> > by name.)
>
> Wow. You're right. I actually asked my wife, and she thought it was Pruitt
> also! We even popped in the "Making of Lunar" CD and went to Working
> Designs' website... but it is Truitt after all! Well... either way... he
> does Ghaleon OH so well... ;)
Very much so. It's part of what makes Ghaleon so cool, I think.....
which is why they used him for the voice in all versions of both games
(although I don't have the SCD version of Lunar 1, I've read somewhere
he does the vocie all the way back even then).
> > Save all Silver Lights from the beginning of the game, you should have
> > almost a full 20.
>
> Heh. I should have done that. I had about 2 by the end.
I'm an item miser. If I can't restock it easily (or at all), I hoard my
items. You never know when you'll need them.
> > Especially when you can save anywhere. Reminds me -- I saved in Z's
> > palace on a different game than the one I had outside, in case I did
> > have such an emergency waiting. If yer interested in learning all sorts
> > of other SCD/PSX differentiations in Lunar 2 (the only one I have the
> > SCD ver of), I could tell you by email or on the Weyr.
>
> I'd love that! Lunar 2 ranks up there as one of my all time faves.
Mine too. After all, it is the first Lunar I played (never was able to
track down the SCD ver of 1 because by the time I got a SCD, the system
was dying already. But Lunar 2 and Dark Wizard made it all worth it.) Do
you have a character on the Weyrmount, or should I use email?
(Presumably the addy in your header?)
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> That's where I saved. I tried to start a new game, and it let me do it with
> the saved game, so I guess it worked!
>
> I'll play through Suikoden II once I finish Chrono Trigger (again) and Final
> Fantasy IV (for the first time).
>
> Just got Final Fantasy Chronicals. Yum!
ME WANT!!!!!!!!
GIVE!!!!!!!
... ...
Sorry, rabid gamer beast woke up for a moment there. Yeah, I've played
both CT and FF2 on the SNES, but have heard that there will be
differences in each in the FFC version. FF4 will be the real (not the
'easytype' port) version, and I forget what they were doing to CT
(nothing major, and not taking anything out that was already in,
IIRC....) so both will be a bit different than before.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Michael McIntyre wrote:
>
> >Yes, RPGs take a LOT of time. But if you have a solid 1-2 hour time
> >block each (or even most) day(s), then you can slowly work your way
> >through them. It's a nice way to forget the cares of the world and relax
> >for a brief time.
>
> True, if the game is entertaining and relaxing. Being cheap or free helps
> too. Figuring out what isn't going to suck is a hard thing when they cost
> $40-50 a pop. Especially when your thinking is as binary as mine.
And that basically IS the crux of our differences -- 'binary thinking'
as you so eloquently put it. *LIFE*, however, is full of shades of gray,
so why should gaming be any different? I don't think a game exists that
is ideally perfect across the board (although some come close in my not
very humble opinion).
> >Oh well, your tastes are apparently too different from mine for me to
> >sway you...
>
> Basically, yes. To you the game is worth whatever it takes to play it. To
> me, the interface and the game are one. If you had to read a really good
> book one fortune cookie at a time, would you read it? I probably would
> open a few cookies and then say piss on it.
It depends on how hungry I was... <VBEG> OK, OK, just kidding. I see
your point though.
-Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon
> Mine too. After all, it is the first Lunar I played (never was able to
> track down the SCD ver of 1 because by the time I got a SCD, the system
> was dying already. But Lunar 2 and Dark Wizard made it all worth it.) Do
> you have a character on the Weyrmount, or should I use email?
> (Presumably the addy in your header?)
email would be fine... I think the headers list my spam filter (aka Hotmail
account) ;) I do check it occasionally though, so I will see it there.
Michael McIntyre
wrote:
>And that basically IS the crux of our differences -- 'binary thinking'
>as you so eloquently put it. *LIFE*, however, is full of shades of gray,
>so why should gaming be any different? I don't think a game exists that
>is ideally perfect across the board (although some come close in my not
>very humble opinion).
Gaming is not life. Besides, it isn't that I don't recognize a spectrum of
goodness. Just consider that the band of what I recognize as good is
narrower and more tightly focused than yours. I'm harder to please as a
gamer because I have other interests. I don't really care whether I play a
game or not, so something has to really grab my attention and hold onto it
for quite awhile in order to suck me in. I'm less willing to cut
developers some slack, and one aspect of an otherwise potentially
interesting game can be enough to land it in the trash. For example, that
Dynamix game based on the Feist books. Cool idea, but the combat was
asanine, and the feeling that you were walking on the surface instead of a
dungeon just really wasn't there. It wasn't compelling, and I didn't get
much out of playing it. I played it for awhile, found it horribly boring,
and returned it.
The list goes on... Almost any fighter simulation type game. The flight
engines were all pretty crude (especially the Dynamix ones... great
packaging, great background, great sense of really being there, until you
try to the fly the thing, and then it's like bleah what IS this crap?), and
the feeling of flying a real plane just wasn't there. I think I enjoyed
the X-Wing games because the ships aren't real anyway, and I could be more
forgiving (even though their physics were totally wrong) and the Star Wars
world was very compelling. Jane's Longbow was entertaining if only for the
novelty of flying a helicopter. I beat it, but I cheated heavily, and will
likely never replay it. To the rest, Microsoft Flight Simulator was the
only reasonably realistic sim (5.0 was the last I played, I think), though
very boring (whee, I'm flying over miles and miles of nothing on auto
pilot... this is fun... let's see... to spice this up, let's try to run
out of gas and land without power...) and Flight Ulimited was the closest I
found to actually flying in a real plane. The graphics in that one were
awesome, but the world was small, and the game largely pointless. Let's do
acrobatics in our imaginary airplane so we can see what the ground looks
like from this or that kind of move. I guess basically all flying for the
sake of flying sims are pretty pointless after awhile, and the fighter sims
never seem to have good feeling engines like the flying-for-flying ones.
Then to Ultima 4... Ah, the heart of the matter... Crude graphics, no
sense of the world after 10,000 moves (I'm somewhere between here and
there, but I have no idea where, no sense of where here was or where there
is in relation), crude inventory system, just crude everything. It's
difficult for me to have a real sense of what I have, what I'm wearing,
what does what, what anyone looks like, etc.
You can say that a game like U4 gives you the freedom to imagine anything
you want, but my mind doesn't work that way. It's not that I have no
imagination, but I don't have that KIND of imagination. I know artists who
can picture someone's face in their minds in vivid detail, and then
reproduce it on canvas days later. I can remember where the box explaining
O-->UE stem changing verbs in Spanish was in my high school freshman
textbook, can picture that page in my mind (for example) but I can't
picture, say, your face, which I've seen more recently.
It's like those floaters Optician and I were talking about awhile back. I
can see stuff, but it's like a floater. If I look at it, it flits away,
always just out of reach like a carrot on a stick. So what do the people
in this game look like to me? Like floaters, or nothing at all.
It's frustrating, and what's more, it's boring. The longer I play, the
less I care whether or not I get anywhere, and the more surprised I am that
so many people love this game with such quasi-religious fervor. There must
be something to it, but damn if I can find what it is.
I mean come on... After 10,000 moves I'm still just not into it. It's not
like I haven't tried.
Samurai
>back.
We've discussed them in the past, too. I /hate/ it when someone
mentions floaters, because I then immediately see the large quantity I
have in my vision, which I have been conveniently ignoring up to that
point.
Conversations about headlice and fleas have a similar psychosomatic
effect on me.
*starts itching*
zhentil
> Its music isn't
> memorable in spite of being much more involved and well-sequenced than the
> likes of Stones.
Whatchew talkin' about, Mr. McIntyre?
Beyond the fellowship theme, and of course Stones, most songs in U7 were
forgetable, to me. U8 songs, on the other hand, I can pretty much identify
exactly where and when they play when I hear them. And I've played through both
games the same amount of times, and U7 more recently (why, oh why..). So there
:)
--
"we've been Waiting fOr summEr but winter came
we've been enterIng people'S hoMes but it was snowing in therE"
- victor tsoi
Hey, don't call me that, I prefer to go by..
zhentil
> 'easytype' port)
But I bet Squaresoft (USA) has still cut certain plot elements. Sure, a bunch of
people have special powers, and there are enemy rows in combat, but why is Kyne
a dragon knight and not a black knight, hmm? There are a few other plot elements
that they took out of the SNES version (and I'm sure they took out of the FFC
version), but I can't remember them.
Apparently, they have to dumbify several things in the USA versions. I
understood why with FF4 and FF6, they needed space, but that's a lousy excuse
for FF7-9.. it's insulting, it's irritating, and frankly, they're way past their
prime with that series, anyway. Now it's just *snore*.
Lumina Dragon
zhentil wrote:
>
> > FF4 will be the real (not the
> > 'easytype' port)
>
> But I bet Squaresoft (USA) has still cut certain plot elements. Sure, a bunch of
> people have special powers, and there are enemy rows in combat, but why is Kyne
> a dragon knight and not a black knight, hmm? There are a few other plot elements
> that they took out of the SNES version (and I'm sure they took out of the FFC
> version), but I can't remember them.
Excuse me, but I have read in a review (just today, infact), that
FFC-FF4 is a new localization of the full version of FF4, not the cut
version that hit the SNES as FF2.
And who is Kyne? By the term "Dragon Knight", I assume you mean Kain?
> Apparently, they have to dumbify several things in the USA versions. I
> understood why with FF4 and FF6, they needed space, but that's a lousy excuse
> for FF7-9.. it's insulting, it's irritating, and frankly, they're way past their
> prime with that series, anyway. Now it's just *snore*.
Well, with the (S)NES Final Fantasies, there's yet another reason for
editing besides space, and that's NoA censors. After all, have you seen
what the Nintendo bigshots did to Ultima 7? (I thankfully haven't, but
have heard MORE than enough about it.)
As for the PSX FF's, I have never head of any dumbing down being done.
Could you elaborate, perhaps?
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> email would be fine... I think the headers list my spam filter (aka Hotmail
> account) ;) I do check it occasionally though, so I will see it there.
Yeah, it says dex...@hotmail.com. Guess that's what I;ll use. Expect it
in however long it takes me to write it, send it, and for it to reac...
wait, I use hotmail too, so it reaches instantly.
-Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon
Yep. I no longer use my real email for ANYTHING. Anything that requires
filling in my email address.... that's what good old hotmail's for! HA!
zhentil
Ah.. yeah.. Kai-n.. proper translation to his class was "Dragon Knight", not
dragoon.
> Well, with the (S)NES Final Fantasies, there's yet another reason for
> editing besides space, and that's NoA censors. After all, have you seen
> what the Nintendo bigshots did to Ultima 7?
There's a different between removing a ritualistically killed body and turning a
kiss into a hug.
> As for the PSX FF's, I have never head of any dumbing down being done.
> Could you elaborate, perhaps?
I don't know, I forget now, since it's been so long since I -CARED-, but I do
remember seeing several things (and then later having them confirmed by a list)
removed from FF7. I'm not going to go back and play the game again to figure it
out. FF series started the downhill journey with FF6, imo.
Attentive Dragon
"zhentil" <fa...@email.address> wrote in message
news:9iivoj$vqn$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> > And who is Kyne? By the term "Dragon Knight", I assume you mean Kain?
>
> Ah.. yeah.. Kai-n.. proper translation to his class was "Dragon Knight",
not
> dragoon.
>
> > Well, with the (S)NES Final Fantasies, there's yet another reason for
> > editing besides space, and that's NoA censors. After all, have you seen
> > what the Nintendo bigshots did to Ultima 7?
>
> There's a different between removing a ritualistically killed body and
turning a
> kiss into a hug.
>
> > As for the PSX FF's, I have never head of any dumbing down being done.
> > Could you elaborate, perhaps?
>
> I don't know, I forget now, since it's been so long since I -CARED-, but I
do
> remember seeing several things (and then later having them confirmed by a
list)
> removed from FF7. I'm not going to go back and play the game again to
figure it
> out. FF series started the downhill journey with FF6, imo.
As far as story and plot go, 6 was still up there (as was 8... all except
for the ending... actually that goes for both games... they failed utterly
in their last "post apocolyptic" sections.) The main problem with FF 6, 7,
and 8 was that it was far to easy to create GOD LIKE characters, and every
character could learn every spell. There was little or no strategy to the
make up of parties. Of course, Final Fantasy 9 rectified most of those
concerns (an awesome game, which redeemed the series in my eyes... Final
Fantasy 9 did for the FF series what Ultima IX was SUPPOSED to do for
Ultima.)
Michael McIntyre
>[U8]
>> Its music isn't
>> memorable in spite of being much more involved and well-sequenced than the
>> likes of Stones.
>
>Whatchew talkin' about, Mr. McIntyre?
>
>Beyond the fellowship theme, and of course Stones, most songs in U7 were
>forgetable, to me. U8 songs, on the other hand, I can pretty much identify
>exactly where and when they play when I hear them. And I've played through both
>games the same amount of times, and U7 more recently (why, oh why..). So there
>:)
Well, most of U7's music is forgettable too, now that you mention it. U6
had the best, even though all the themes are quite simple.
U8's music is much more orchestral sounding, more "serious" and it's very
ominous and foreboding, but I find it pretty forgettable. I may recognize
this theme as belonging to that place or whatever, but I don't whistle it
going down the road, and I couldn't reconstruct it all that well from
memory.
Take the intro to U6 OTOH... I could proabably sit down and sequence
something very close just from hearing it in my head months after playing,
while I can't summon more than a little snippet of the Tenebrae theme from
U8, which I'm currently piddling at playing.
In fact, that theme is so memorable that I probably could have
reconstructed it from memory even when I hadn't played the game in about
ten years.
Lumina Dragon
zhentil wrote:
>
> > And who is Kyne? By the term "Dragon Knight", I assume you mean Kain?
>
> Ah.. yeah.. Kai-n.. proper translation to his class was "Dragon Knight", not
> dragoon.
Yeah, yeah, but the translation job was betetr than that done by the
crews on FFT or Zero WIng.
You spoony Zhent.
> > Well, with the (S)NES Final Fantasies, there's yet another reason for
> > editing besides space, and that's NoA censors. After all, have you seen
> > what the Nintendo bigshots did to Ultima 7?
>
> There's a different between removing a ritualistically killed body and turning a
> kiss into a hug.
Nonetheless, NoA is known to be hard with its censoring rules.
> > As for the PSX FF's, I have never head of any dumbing down being done.
> > Could you elaborate, perhaps?
>
> I don't know, I forget now, since it's been so long since I -CARED-, but I do
> remember seeing several things (and then later having them confirmed by a list)
> removed from FF7. I'm not going to go back and play the game again to figure it
> out. FF series started the downhill journey with FF6, imo.
If you find this list, hand me its URL, OK? I'm curious.
-Lumina Dragon
Lumina Dragon
Attentive Dragon wrote:
>
> As far as story and plot go, 6 was still up there (as was 8... all except
> for the ending... actually that goes for both games... they failed utterly
> in their last "post apocolyptic" sections.)
I think FF6 carried off the apocalypse rather well.
Note: I'm not disagreeing with you on 8.
> The main problem with FF 6, 7,
> and 8 was that it was far to easy to create GOD LIKE characters, and every
> character could learn every spell.
Not *quite* true in 8, but close enough. And you may as well add 5, for
people who have the Anth (like me) and take the time to master every
single job (like, uh... me).
> There was little or no strategy to the
> make up of parties. Of course, Final Fantasy 9 rectified most of those
> concerns (an awesome game, which redeemed the series in my eyes... Final
> Fantasy 9 did for the FF series what Ultima IX was SUPPOSED to do for
> Ultima.)
Yes, 4 and 9 kept you from being all-powerful.
But as I've said, it's been a trend of late to make RPGs less difficult
than they were.
I can see it now.... RPG players who've never played anything before FF7
see the great ratings FF4 on the FFC is getting, hear all sorts of good
things about it, and pick up the game.... and are floored by the fact
that it's an actual challenge. Muahahahahahahahaha.
-Lumina Dragon