JSTAT Gets Barred!
JSTAT
On 11/10 I decided to drive to Reno for the night since Veterans
Day was a day off for me. I checked into my room at the Silver Legacy
at 11:30 am. Since I was anxious to play 21, I immediately proceeded
to the high limit blackjack pit and played single deck for about 30
minutes and won $200.00 spreading $25.00-$100.00 at a $25.00 table. I
like to play a hit and run style of play, so I decided my next stop
would be the Eldorado since these two joints have similar games and
tolerance levels.
I arrived at the Eldorado(which is across the street) at a little
after 12:00 and played single deck blackjack at a $25.00 table and
again spread $25.00-$100.00. I was down $500.00 until I came back
and managed to squeak out at a $80.00 profit after 45 minutes of play.
On my way to the cashiers cage I was confronted by a well dressed man
who introduced himself as Pat Mathavorn. His Eldorado nametag said
that he was the High Limit Games Manager so I game him my undivided
attention. He shook my hand and then said, "You are welcome to play
all the games in the casino except blackjack". Gee, imagine me being
a threat to the Eldorado's bankroll after winning the huge amount
of $80.00.
I asked Mathavorn, " Am I too good for you guys"? He repeated his
prior statement to me. I told him,"I feel honored that you think that
I am that good at blackjack". He said nothing.
So I left the Eldorado and went to my room to watch the 49er vs Cowboy game
and to reflect on what just occured.I tell you my friends, the high from
being told that you are too good at blackjack is indescribable. When
I told my co-workers and family about bringing the Eldorado to its knees,
they were happy for me because they know I have a secret that needs to
be published and they abhor discrimination.
JSTAT
turni...@aol.com
You are one sick puppy
JSTAT
In article <19961115060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, turni...@aol.com says...
>
>You are one sick puppy
>
This is the type of response one should expect when throwing
pearls to swine. Thanks for your well thought out comments.
No Regards,
JSTAT
Abdul Jalib M'hall
When Mr. Turningsto said, "You are one sick puppy", it must have
been a misspelling of the following...
The first thing people usually ask a venomous snake handler is,
"How many times have you been bitten?" The snake handler invariably
responds with a number greater than zero, and the audience thinks it's
so cool. The snake handler, on the other hand, is embarrassed to have
been so careless.
I'm proud to say I have no been barred in a year, but I'm embarraseed
about that barring a year ago.
On the other hand, if a loan broker never makes a bad loan, he
is being too conservative and making less money than he could.
I think part of the initiation for counters is to get barred,
otherwise they may live in fear of the unknown and be too
conservative. It's not so bad to get barred. JSTAT even likes
it. :) However, get barred for low stakes at a dive. Getting
barred for high stakes can result in multiple barrings.
El Dorado is one of the sharpest casinos at identifying card counters...
probably in the top 5 in Nevada. I'm not saying it's impossible to
fool them, simply that it's harder than 99% of casinos. (BTW, when
you're there, check out their phones, or was it their rating machines,
which have a listing of extensions on them... one of them is for
"CCC - confirmed card counter".) A lot of casinos are paranoid-stupid;
they boot counters and noncounters alike. El Dorado is one of the few
casinos that is paranoid-smart; they boot counters quickly without
the other customers having much of a clue. Your biggest mistake
was playing them at all, especially before you have gotten more experience
elsewhere. It's hard to know that a casino is quick to boot before getting
the boot yourself, but you can start by asking around here.
I'm not convinced that barrings have positive expected value for the
casinos, by the way. Not only does counter identification consume
a large amount of casino resources, but also the barring itself can have
negative repercussions. I doubt any of JSTAT's friends/family
will ever play El Dorado now. Also, very often counters become buddies
with the casino's legit high rollers, and the high rollers
get very upset at barrings. One such legit high roller was yelling
"NO! NO! NO!" at the shift manager when he became aware that I was
in the process of being barred, and I doubt he ever returned to
that casino... he was worth more to the casino than I was a drain.
We've had posts from noncounting newbies who have heard about barrings
and are now afraid to get rated or even play, and so barrings are
filtering into the public consciousness.
I try to turn every disadvantage into an advantage. Here it is for
barring... One can debate friends/family for hours/days trying to convince
them that card counting really works and one is not crazy. Or one can
tell them in just one sentence, "there are some casinos that will no
longer allow me to play blackjack, because of my skill." That shuts them
up fast. That, it seems, is your only benefit from getting barred,
and the returns for subsequent barrings will rapidly decrease. Although
it's natural to get an adrenaline rush when getting barred (I usually
pace frantically for hours afterwards), getting a real "happy" high
seems bizarre. Getting barred is a bad thing.
--
Abdul | How much is that doggy in the window? The one with the waggly tail.
Jalib | - You mean the one all excited to be locked up? That is one sick
M'hall | puppy. I suggest you buy a different one.
JSTAT
In article <mhallE0...@netcom.com>, mh...@netcom.com says...
>
>El Dorado is one of the sharpest casinos at identifying card counters...
>probably in the top 5 in Nevada. I'm not saying it's impossible to
>fool them, simply that it's harder than 99% of casinos.
Then how come Blackjack Forum's "Best Bets"(Fall 96) section includes the
El Dorado? Isn't Arnold Snyder aware that they are possibly in the top 5
casinos that bar "smart" players. I placed my faith in Snyder's analysis and
let my guard down. I talked to Snyder's son Jessie and insisted that
the El Dorado be placed in the "Burn Joints" section.If the El Dorado
in Reno is not placed in "Burn Joints", then we can only assume that
Snyder is indeed in bed with the casino industry. I called one week
before the deadline for the December issue and expect the El Dorado
to be downgraded.
JSTAT
JSTAT
In article <19961116041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rusty...@aol.com says...
>
>I think you and I just have a different idea of what competence in
>blackjack is. If you believe that playing a powerful system well enough
>to give you an edge constitutes competence, go for it. I however believe
>that you must be able to play well enough to give you an edge *and* play
>it undetected. Congratulations on being barred.
>Regards,
>
>Rusty Martin
I dare you to play the high-limit($25.00 min.) single deck at the El Dorado in
Reno, Rusty(Or any of you).If they don't bar you with your lame level one count:-),
then you are not good enough to beat this game.The Eldorado is a great place
test of your skill. If you last, then you are doomed to bankruptcy.
JSTAT
Paul Chou
Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters? What are the
top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Chou Hewlett-Packard Company
pc...@cdc.hp.com 1501 Page Mill Road, MS 6LD
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1126
rusty...@aol.com
In article <56bcbm$7...@lana.zippo.com>, JSTAT writes:
>So I left the Eldorado and went to my room to watch the 49er vs Cowboy
game
>and to reflect on what just occured.I tell you my friends, the high from
>being told that you are too good at blackjack is indescribable. When
>I told my co-workers and family about bringing the Eldorado to its knees,
>they were happy for me because they know I have a secret that needs to
>be published and they abhor discrimination.
If getting barred makes you feel good, jump up and down, tell all your
friends, then JSTAT buddy, I'm sincerely happy for you. If you think that
this is confirmation that you're too good, well, would you mind if I
disagreed with you a little?
A while back you and I had a little argument which went something like
this...Hmmm <Rusty fades off in a flashback scene just like Letterman...>
In article <536i3i$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, rusty...@aol.com wrote.
[snip].
RBJ> Casino's make money from erzatz card counters because the average
RBJ> counter is not willing to devote the time to become competent enough
to
RBJ> win. Or lacks a proper bankroll. This systems can win on paper. It's
RBJ> poor execution that allows the casinos to continue to make money
RBJ> even though winning systems exist.
[snip]
RBJ> Yet apparently you're not even practiced enough with your own
RBJ> system to play it without moving your lips and sound coming out.
RBJ> Sounds such as "Plus 1."Player competence, discipline and
RBJ> bankroll is more important than the system.
A cheap shot for which I apologize, but I did have a point. To which
JSTAT replied:
In article <536u5a$o...@lex.zippo.com> JSTAT wrote:
JS> The excuse of discipline, bankroll and poor execution is a
JS> convenient way of taking the blame from the author and placing
JS> it on the players incompetence.
In article <5398qi$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> RUSTYBLKJK followed up:
RBJ> I realize you've worked quite hard developing your count and your
RBJ> strategy. And I truly hope it's the greatest thing since sliced
RBJ> bread! But even if it is, if playing it requires more thought than
RBJ> does stopping at a stop sign and checking traffic before
RBJ> proceeding, you will either lose or be barred.
<Rusty fades back in to focus from his flashback...>
Hmmm. So on October 6th, my understanding of the way you play your own
system enabled me to predict that you would be barred.
I'm not sure that you're "too good" at blackjack (you may well be and I'm
not disputing that) but I do have an idea that you're too obvious at it.
Getting barred doesn't help your bankroll.
I think you and I just have a different idea of what competence in
blackjack is. If you believe that playing a powerful system well enough
to give you an edge constitutes competence, go for it. I however believe
that you must be able to play well enough to give you an edge *and* play
it undetected. Congratulations on being barred. If that makes you feel
good, gets your ego stroked, vindicates you for all your hard work, I'm
sincerely pleased. But practice will make you more powerful.
Regards,
Rusty Martin
"Someday we will look back on all of this, and tape over it"
- The Admiral
Brad
JSTAT, your post didn't say how much, if at all, you've played that
casino in the past. Maybe they didn't care about your $80 because they
already had your picture from a past visit. First time there?
One of my first thoughts when someone is barred is, "How big were they
spreading?," but doing a 1-4 for 45 minutes (even at single deck)
doesn't seem like a reason to be barred. No one's cover/act could be
that bad (could it?). Unless your forehead says "counter" on it or
don't use any cover at all, I would say the management is just
paranoid. If you look close enough, I bet they even bar the slot
players when they win.
Brad
BigP...@ix.netcom.com
"I can't give you a brain, but I can give you a diploma."--Wizard of OZ
John Cantlin
In message <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com> - pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou )
writes:
:>
:>Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
I would nominate the Horseshoe in Las Vegas to be in the top 5,
John Cantlin
martin_maughan
In article , JSTAT says...
I'm sure that Arnold Snyder takes many things into consideration
before he makes his recommendations. I'm just not sure that it
would be responsible to assume that "Snyder is indeed in bed with
the casino industry" simply if he doesn't capitulate to your
demands. As it has been so ably pointed out, maybe it was a
weakness in your own playing style that caused you to be barred,
perhaps an impulsive remark to a dealer or something.
In any event, good luck. Let us know about your successes too.
Regards,
Martin Maughan
Return mail should go to mmau...@aol.com
martin_maughan
Oh, by the way; JSTAT, you used to be a dealer,
didn't you? I've read many good strategies articles
from you, but I would also very much enjoy learning
about the game from a dealer's point of view. Things
such as what kind of things are the dealers looking
for when on the lookout for counters? How can we
best get the dealers on our sides, or even can we?
Does it usually help to tip, and if so, how much, etc.
Because of your background, Im sure that you have a
wealth of information to share along these lines, as
well as some very good stories. I'm sure that many
of us would enjoy reading them.
ralph stricker
In <56k8fi$h...@lana.zippo.com> Martin Maughan writes:
>
>Oh, by the way; JSTAT, you used to be a dealer,
>didn't you? I've read many good strategies articles
>from you, but I would also very much enjoy learning
>about the game from a dealer's point of view. Things
>such as what kind of things are the dealers looking
>for when on the lookout for counters? How can we
>best get the dealers on our sides, or even can we?
If you mean getting on the side of the dealer so that he doesn't
shuffle up on you or alert the pit, I would be hesitant to become too
"familiar" with any one dealer. I have found from experience that none
can be trusted. I don't mean this in a derogatory sense, but rather in
reference to their job in the casino. There is no one way handicap all
dealers, each one has his/her own personality. If you feel you have to
cultivate a dealer, more than likely you are playing too frequently in
that casino/table/pit. This doesn't mean you should not try
bribing/tipping, it works sometimes and doesn't work other times. When
I play on my own, I am very gregarious and talk incessantly. When I
team play, I am the bad cop in the bad/good cop scenario.
>Does it usually help to tip, and if so, how much, etc.
I believe it helps more to tip in hand held games. It may dissuade the
dealer from shuffling "too" prematurely.
>
>Because of your background, Im sure that you have a
>wealth of information to share along these lines, as
>well as some very good stories. I'm sure that many
>of us would enjoy reading them.
I'm sure that JSTAT has his own idea of these scenarios. These are
mine. IMHO : )
>
>Regards,
>Martin Maughan
>
>Return mail should go to mmau...@aol.com
Ralph Stricker "Silver Fox"
Murray O. Kane
jca...@ibm.net (John Cantlin) wrote:
>In message <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com> - pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou )
>:>sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters? What are the
>:>top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
>I would nominate the Horseshoe in Las Vegas to be in the top 5,
>John Cantlin
I would nominate the Barbary Coast in Las Vegas to be in the top 5 in
barring and paranoia.
Todd Matthew Koson
Murray O. Kane (mok_gl...@pipeline.com) wrote:
I second this. I was "warned" (not barred) here a few years back for
counting (and is still the only incident in my life where a casino has
taken interest in me.) This place IMO is downright paranoid regardless of
a. how you play; and b. how much you are playing.
One place I am not ashamed to say that should go on the list for good
places to play (only IMO) is the Westward Ho. I count into their two
deck, spread WHATEVER, and have even told a dealer I was counting once
when I was losing (he took it as a joke) and have absolutely no problem.
Problems of the Ho - country music (if your not a fan) and it somewhat has
the feel of a retirement home. But if I win there, then I play there.
P.S. I take a risk posting this, as I have only posted to RGB once or
twice before, but I have gotten E-mail at least five times from a "Dr.
Profe" who is, at a minimum, annoying.
Abdul Jalib
In article <56j620$9...@lana.zippo.com>,
JSTAT writes:
>In article <mhallE0...@netcom.com>, mh...@netcom.com says...
>>
>>El Dorado is one of the sharpest casinos at identifying card counters...
>>probably in the top 5 in Nevada. I'm not saying it's impossible to
>>fool them, simply that it's harder than 99% of casinos.
>
>Then how come Blackjack Forum's "Best Bets"(Fall 96) section includes the
>El Dorado?
Everybody makes mistakes.
>Isn't Arnold Snyder aware that they are possibly in the top 5
>casinos that bar "smart" players.
His opinion may differ and may be either more or less informed than mine.
My opinion comes from the experiences of multiple counters I know who have
been quickly barred from El Dorado, despite not often having such a quick
demise at other joints. I should note that my information is old; this
is because the counters who get booted don't return for a while, if ever.
Things could have changed with the opening of the Silver Legacy and the
resulting employee redistribution.
>I placed my faith in Snyder's analysis and let my guard down.
Your mileage may vary.
>I talked to Snyder's son Jessie and insisted that
>the El Dorado be placed in the "Burn Joints" section.If the El Dorado
>in Reno is not placed in "Burn Joints", then we can only assume that
>Snyder is indeed in bed with the casino industry.
I hope you are not going to hock a Doogie. It is considered bad manners.
>I called one week
>before the deadline for the December issue and expect the El Dorado
>to be downgraded.
His opinion may differ. It's good to offer constructive criticism,
but you are going to have to let him compile all the information he
has from different sources to make the final decision on how El
Dorado should be rated/classified. If he knows 50 counters who
are playing with no problems at El Dorado, then he would probably
decide to overrule our opinions.
--
Abdul Jalib | This post should not be construed as representing the
| opinions of myself, even though I am an employee of
ab...@leonardo.net | myself.
Bill Vanek
In article <56knnu$1chg$1...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,
John Cantlin <jca...@ibm.net> wrote:
>In message <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com> - pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou )
>:>
>:>Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
>:>sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters? What are the
>:>top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
>:>-------------------------------------------------------------
>:>Paul Chou Hewlett-Packard Company
>:>pc...@cdc.hp.com 1501 Page Mill Road, MS 6LD
>:> Palo Alto, CA 94304-1126
>
>
>
>
>
>John Cantlin
>
Just to contribute a different perspective to the usual remarks about
Binion's:
I moved here about 6 years ago. I've played at Binion's the whole time
(not exclusively). I've counted the whole time. I've played the quarter
tables with a 1-8 spread, nickel tables with a 1-40 spread. I sit at the
same table for hours. For a couple of weeks I even blatantly back-counted
the quarter tables for hours at a time. I almost never talk to the dealers
or other players. Do I have a good act? I don't have any act at all.
About 2 weeks ago I finally got flat-betted - bad news, but it took 6
years!
Like I said, I'm just adding another perspective to the views of
Binion's; they might be paranoid, they might be quick to bar, but I've
never seen it.
Leigh R Hidell
A friend was barred at the Boomtown in Harvey after winning
a grand total of $98, & I thought that was pretty trashy.
I got barred there before I even knew how to count. Their
math whizzes (not) started paying 2 to 1 on blackjack. Harvey
is not the center of my social life -- have to cross 2 toll
bridges to get there -- so I made a decision to play until
I was thrown out no matter how hot the heat got. I just wanted
to hit it hard for all the money I could on the assumption that
you are rarely going to find a casino offering these odds too
long...at least not if they want to stay in business!
Nine grand later, they told me to hit the road. But, yes, as
JSTAT says, it was a great feeling!!! I kicked ass, & I
was only a BS player!!!
Quite a few friends congratulated me on becoming a "pro,"
since they considered being barred a kind of initiation
rite. Others just laughed that any casino would be
afraid of ME.
rusty...@aol.com
In article <56jkuu$r...@lana.zippo.com>, JSTAT writes:
>I dare you to play the high-limit($25.00 min.) single deck at the
>El Dorado in Reno, Rusty(Or any of you).If they don't bar you
>with your lame level one count:-), then you are not good enough
>to beat this game.The Eldorado is a great place test of your skill.
First, I like the smiley face. Second, it depends on *how* you spread
your bets 1 to 4 (or better) when factoring whether you will be spotted
for counting. Systematic precise handling of your chips is a big tip off.
Here, I'll even give you one of my favorite cover moves. Keep your chips
in one of those big slot player plastic cups. Be sure your
wife/girlfriend keeps coming up to you (15/30 minutes or so) to steal more
chips from your cup. (She doesn't really need to *play* the slots, just
keep coming back). Sometimes I even keep a roll of $5 slot tokens in with
my chips. Now, if these people can't track my wins/losses due to the cup,
think I'm a regular slot player, *know* that my wife is losing a fortune
at slots, how much are they gonna be concerned about a little old 25 -
$100 bet spread at the blackjack table, especially since many times I'm
betting the $100 off the top?
This works real well with married male dealers, since, many of them also
have wives/girlfriends who seem to want to part them with *their* money
too. Once again, the more practiced you are with the system, the more
automatic it is to play. This leaves you free to do all sorts of
outrageous cover moves. But if you have to concentrate on the cards and
calculations, your bet spread will be noticed. If the pit thinks you're
concentrating on how much your losing to your girlfriend, you can pretty
much spread as much as you want.
As far as the Eldorado being a great place to test my skill... well, since
I haven't been barred at the places which are poor at detection, why would
I jump in to the heat? The only thing that matters John, is winning.
This is not an ego thing. This is not a contest "If you're so good, can
you play there without getting barred?" I have no interest in the
challenge, since it doesn't make me any more money. I don't play the game
to feel superior, I play it to win.
>If you last, then you are doomed to bankruptcy.
I would have preferred a smiley face here too, since I can't believe that
you truly believe this, you just like to argue it. But it is sort of
reminiscent of the days when I was an oldies Disc Jockey, it's comforting
to hear an old song knowing the words and tune never change. :-)
turni...@aol.com
In article <56jkuu$r...@lana.zippo.com>, JSTAT writes:
>I dare you to play the high-limit($25.00 min.) single deck at the El
Dorado
>in
>Reno, Rusty(Or any of you).If they don't bar you with your lame level one
>count:-),
>then you are not good enough to beat this game.The Eldorado is a great
place
>test of your skill. If you last, then you are doomed to bankruptcy.
>
> JSTAT
You are not only one sick puppy you have no clues about life, blackjack,
or the US bankruptcy code.
turni...@aol.com
In article <56k8fi$h...@lana.zippo.com>, Martin Maughan writes:
>Because of your background, Im sure that you have a
>wealth of information to share along these lines, as
>well as some very good stories. I'm sure that many
>of us would enjoy reading them.
>
>
I'm sure your wrong :)
turni...@aol.com
In article <56l60b$r...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, tmk...@umich.edu
(Todd Matthew Koson) writes:
>P.S. I take a risk posting this, as I have only posted to RGB once or
>twice before, but I have gotten E-mail at least five times from a "Dr.
>Profe" who is, at a minimum, annoying.
I nominate this for understatement of the year:)
Stephen C. Rose
Just occurs to me to ask: Anyone ever been barred for winning but NOT
counting? Either mistaken for a counter? Or object of ire for winning
consistently? Or??
Todd Matthew Koson
Stephen C. Rose (rene...@panix.com) wrote:
: Just occurs to me to ask: Anyone ever been barred for winning but NOT
: counting? Either mistaken for a counter? Or object of ire for winning
: consistently? Or??
Here's how I like to camouflage my play: I don't camouflage at all. I
stare intensly at the cards, move my lips like I'm counting and spread my
bets from 1 to whatever. Reverse psychology (not recommended for pros, of
course) works wonders - the casino reads the same books everyone here does
and looks for "camouflaged" players. I think personally that casinos are
losing their edge at catching real counters anyway. I amuse myself
heavily when I do the "bad counter" routine and I have always felt that
the casino just doesn't care or thinks that I have bought into the myth
of, shall we say, less than competent counters. Yes, I have won
consistently doing it, and no I am far from a pro, just recreational (so I
don't care about being barred, especially as a nickel player).
A little tongue in cheek, and I really look forward to Dr. Profe's E-mail
as well. Sigh . . . . .
--
Brad
Stephen C. Rose wrote:
>
> Just occurs to me to ask: Anyone ever been barred for winning but NOT
> counting? Either mistaken for a counter? Or object of ire for winning
> consistently? Or??
A non-counting friend of mine was betting $3-$12 at a 5 deck table in a
BIG Indian casino (60+ tables). He rarely played there. He played a
good basic strategy. After getting lucky and winning $100 in about 20
minutes, he was asked not to raise his bet anymore--no more than $12!
He was so surprised, what else could he say but, "Uh, sure. OK."
They must have thought he was a world-class player since he could win
that much at a 5 deck table only spreading his bets 1-4. Of course,
during his lucky streak the dealer was whipping the cards out and he
couldn't count his winnings fast enough, so he said, "Hey, slow down! I
can't count!" Perhaps they took it the wrong way. :)
Abdul Jalib M'hall
In article <571vlf$b...@junkie.gnofn.org>,
Leigh R Hidell <lr...@gnofn.org> wrote:
>Stephen C. Rose <rene...@panix.com> wrote:
>: Just occurs to me to ask: Anyone ever been barred for winning but NOT
>: counting? Either mistaken for a counter? Or object of ire for winning
>: consistently? Or??
>
>on their 2 to 1 blackjack promotion. I won approximately $1000
>a day for the 9 days I was allowed to play.
A lot of people got barred from the Alton Belle 2:1 blackjack promotion,
and many of them were not counting. I wasn't counting, because I had
taken a red eye flight to get there and even just playing basic strategy
for 18 straight hours after getting no sleep was going to be difficult
enough. However, I did not get barred there, because I started to get
the ibby-jibbies and bailed out after about 8 hours. Good thing, because
later at least one innocent skilled played was physically roughed up by
security in the course of being backroomed and photographed, and then he
was dragged away and by the local corrupt police and tossed in jail.
I don't subscribe to the "evil casino" philosophy, but I do think there
are some evil casinos in the world, and the Alton Belle is one of them.
I was barred in a casino in Turkey during an initial cover session doing
a totally random 1-2 spread on a 6 deck shoe, not counting at all. I
got "lucky" and won about 20 units, which was just too much for the
idiot casino manager. He then begged me to show him how to count cards,
clearly not having the first clue about it. (I of course played dumb,
claiming I had no idea and spewing off all the American card counting
myths to confuse him further.) It's sort of like in poker - you can't
fool 'em if they don't have a brain. This same casino manager threatened
to kill some other (skilled) players, so I got off easy. Most of the
casinos in Turkey are mafia-run and evil.
--
Abdul | I'm really not sure which is more evil... mafia-run Turkish casinos or
Jalib | the Alton Belle. Has the Alton Belle killed anyone?
M'hall |
Jerry Neal
Curious thing is, I don't think there is any legal basis for barring in
Illinois or Iowa that I've ever heard of. Correct me if I'm wrong, group,
but if you were barred from play here, that should be cause for litigation.
Must've been one hell of a promotion though. Sorry I missed it. I called the Alton Belle to innocently ask if they were gonna have the 2:1
promotion last year and they curtly told me they were not. Might be fun
to call them and ask about THIS year....;-)
--
Leigh R Hidell
Stephen C. Rose <rene...@panix.com> wrote:
: Just occurs to me to ask: Anyone ever been barred for winning but NOT
: counting? Either mistaken for a counter? Or object of ire for winning
: consistently? Or??
Sure, I was barred from the Boomtown Belle in Harvey for winning
on their 2 to 1 blackjack promotion. I won approximately $1000
a day for the 9 days I was allowed to play.
I believe that barring me from a promotion just because I was winning
is illegal. Something similar happened to a friend in MS. She won
2 drawings ($3300 each) in a row. The casino was very nasty about it.
She went to the Gaming Commission, & they verified that she had the
right to continue to play as long as the promotion was offered
to the public. Unfortunately, in LA, there is no effective
gaming commission. Fortunately, I have a lawyer willing to
take the case on contingency, so I am suing.
Whether or not I win the case, it's worth doing. I'm learning a lot.
We did discovery Tues. The Boomtown approach is basically to lie
& say that they don't bar people, don't shuffle up, etc. One bitchy
pit boss, the one responsible for most of the shuffle ups, denied
knowing that I was winning! Yeah, right.
For newbies, let me explain: You don't have to count to win
at 2 to 1 BJ. You want to make the max possible bet on
every hand because you have an off the top edge of almost 2%.
--Leigh
Edwin Cholewa Jr.
> Curious thing is, I don't think there is any legal basis for barring in
> Illinois or Iowa that I've ever heard of. Correct me if I'm wrong,
group,
> but if you were barred from play here, that should be cause for
litigation.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason Blackjack is alowed in states
such as Illinois, Iowa, New Jersey, etc. is because Blackjack is considered
a game of chance in those states.
If proving the fact that "Counters" have an advantage of the House states
that the game, Blackjack, is a game of skill. This would make Blackjack
banned in such areas like New Jersey. This arguement was pointed out when
Commissioner Merck allowed NJ casinos to eject anyone who is "skilled" at
playing Blackjack. The commissioner interprets the rules both ways. "..He
said the real problem is that with professional gamblers, blackjack is
considered a game of skill, not a game of chance. If it is not a game of
chance, then it 'cannot qualify as a casino game,' Merck said, 'I don't
think any level of skill should be kept out of the casino.'"
ralph stricker
In <01bbd8cd$778f5cc0$9542bacd@echolewa> "Edwin Cholewa Jr."
Commission that helped promulgate the good rules that AC had
originally. He was the only one who went and took a series of courses
in gambling including card counting. He felt it was the only way that
he could make the casinos offer a fair game to the public. He was later
removed (replaced) and that was the beginning of the end for the game
as we knew it in AC. Ralph Stricker "Silver Fox"
Leigh R Hidell
A friend just got barred from the President in Biloxi who is
anything but a counter. Don't think he's online, so I thought
I'd write a quick note about it. The President has a new
ownership, & after hearing this guy's story, I wonder how
honest they are.
The deal was, they had a 7 card Charlie promo where, if you
got 7 cards w/out busting, you were supposed to be in a
drawing for $50,000. One of the tickets was the 50K, & the
rest were for $200. There were supposed to be 100 tickets.
Well, 96 entries for the 7 card Charlie were given out,
including my friend, who played a LOT & got 3 tickets.
You figure he's got a pretty good chance, right? Well,
the nite of the drawing, the President suddenly had
not 100 but 1500 tickets -- & somehow it turned out that,
hey, no one drew the 50K ticket. I'd be howling for blood
myself, but when my friend began to even ask about why
they had said in the promo there were only 100 tickets,
the Prez got real nasty. & the next time he went over
there to play in a tournament, they told him he was
barred.
Well! If it was me, I'd go to gaming & request that the
50K be divided up among the 96 qualifiers, because I think he
would win that for sure. And I might even consider talking
to a lawyer because no way, no how, in this country can
you treat people like that for ASKING A FREAKING
QUESTION!!!
This is not a loud mouth, disruptive guy, actually the laid
back kind. The casino, IMHO, appears to have been up to
something real fishy....
--Leigh
Ian Harmer
I was banned from Caesars Tahoe three years ago and was specifically
told that no, they didn't suspect me of card counting -- I was just a
mean and nasty person who beat them more often than they beat me. Since
CT had given me a comp card which gave me free meals and the use of
their fancy spa/gym, plus show tickets etc., I challenged the ruling of
what they called the "Player Review Committee." No dice (cards, I
mean). And three years later, they still won't reconsider. Bummer!
kahutchinson@gamblenet
In <575f3u$p...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, bjp...@ix.netcom.com(ralph stricker ) writes:
This subject-line/thread now goes into my killfile.
Abdul Jalib
In article <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com>,
pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
> Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
> sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
identification of counters as:
1. Harvey's Tahoe
2. Reno Peppermill
3. El Dorado
4. Harrah's Tahoe
5. Treasure Island
Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
> What are the
> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
1. Barbary Coast
2. El Cortez
3. Reno Sundowner
4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
Dishonorable mention to the Golden Gate, which probably won't bar
you, but you won't want to stay anyway because of the other things
they'll do to you.
JSTAT raved about the Reno Hilton, but since before they were the
Reno Hilton (i.e., when they were Bally's), they have been a pathetic
action-hating heat-spewing sawdust dump, disguised as a laid-back high
roller gambling salon. They are stupid, though. Anyway, it just
goes to show you how other peoples' opinions can differ from mine,
and why Snyder and I might disagree on the ease of playing at El
Dorado.
--
Abdul Jalib |
|
abd...@earthlink.net |
uph...@sprynet.com
Who is this guy Abdul M'hall anyway? Based upon
his posts he does not know how to win playing
Blackjack - and if you read his posts carefully
he said he was a dealer or worked in some way
for the casinos. What is his real name? Why
is he hiding his real name? What casino is he
affiliated with? When I read his "spread to
1-4 advice" I almost fell off my chair!
Mr. M'hall sounds a stupid as Arnold
Snyder! Someone should tell
con man M'hallI that t's impossible to win
any real money with only a
1 to 4 spread! The best player in the
world would only make about $6.00 an
hour playing a $10 minimum if you follow
this con man's advice! I say let him reveal
his true identity - stop hiding behind some
con man name, and then we can deal with
this obvious casino employee con man
M'hall. (This guy probably has been
secretly working for the casinos for years
like his fellow con men Arnold Snyder and
Stanford Wong.
(Happy ConJeLCo boys - see ya in court!)
Woody-Paul and those that know the
truth.
bd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) writes:
In article <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com>,
pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
identification of counters as:
1. Harvey's Tahoe
2. Reno Peppermill
3. El Dorado
4. Harrah's Tahoe
5. Treasure Island
Considering that con man M'hall is so stupid he does not
know how to spread enough to make a card counting system
work - I doubt if ANY casino would give him a second look -
(or anyone else that is stupid enough to follow his advice).
Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
Arnold Snyder and the Aladdin working hand-in-hand. So what else
is new. Gosh I wonder
where Steve Forte fits in - we think we know - pretty dangerous
action for a convicted felon.
What are the
top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
1. Barbary Coast
2. El Cortez
3. Reno Sundowner
4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
Con Man M'hall has been saying all along that "casinos NEVER
use the preferential shuffle!" Now because of all the heat that Dr.
Profe created - he now must admit he was lying all along and
that casinos DO use the preferential shuffle!
Max Kelson
abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) wrote:
>In article <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com>,
> pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
>> Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
>> sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
>Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
>at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
>identification of counters as:
> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
> 2. Reno Peppermill
> 3. El Dorado
> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
> 5. Treasure Island
>Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
>talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
>counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
>especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
>> What are the
>> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
> 1. Barbary Coast
> 2. El Cortez
> 3. Reno Sundowner
> 4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
> 5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
>Dishonorable mention to the Golden Gate, which probably won't bar
>you, but you won't want to stay anyway because of the other things
>they'll do to you.
>JSTAT raved about the Reno Hilton, but since before they were the
>Reno Hilton (i.e., when they were Bally's), they have been a pathetic
>action-hating heat-spewing sawdust dump, disguised as a laid-back high
>roller gambling salon. They are stupid, though. Anyway, it just
>goes to show you how other peoples' opinions can differ from mine,
>and why Snyder and I might disagree on the ease of playing at El
>Dorado.
>--
>Abdul Jalib |
> |
>abd...@earthlink.net |
Obviously, a casino only has two basic types of action it can take
against proficient card counters:
1. Cheating and Countermeasures
2. Barring
These two types of actions would, in general, be mutally exclusive.
So, if a casino really is barring players, it's probably a good
indication that they are playing an honest game. Casinos that don't
bar proficient card counters are obviously using method number 1.
I would be surprised, if the Aladdan barred players, since the one
shoe game that I audited there was clumped enough that the typical
novice, gullible counter would lose his shirt. I'm also surprised
that Sam's Town doesn't appear on these lists, since they seem to be
one of the casinos that play an honest game.
Max
sngldeck
I am not sure but did you just accuse the Alladin of cheating?
Edwin Cholewa Jr.
> I am not sure but did you just accuse the Alladin of cheating?
Although some may argue they are the same.
Radioactive
-=> Quoting uph...@sprynet.com to All <=-
up> From: uph...@sprynet.com
up> Who is this guy Abdul M'hall anyway? Based upon
up> his posts he does not know how to win playing
up> Blackjack - and if you read his posts carefully
up> he said he was a dealer or worked in some way
up> for the casinos. What is his real name? Why
up> is he hiding his real name?
Doogie, Doogie, Doogie. Are you telling us your name is uphouse?
What ca
up> (Happy ConJeLCo boys - see ya in court!)
up> Woody-Paul and those that know the
up> truth.
See you in court? Is this Dr. Profe?
Radioactive (Frank)
... Baba Booey! Baba Booey! Baba Booey! Baba Booey! Baba Booey!
--
ed brizzolara
uph...@sprynet.com wrote:
I know Woody Uphouse quite well. He used to count down tables for me in
Atlantic City. This is NOT him talking. Woody never talked this way in
his life. He is a quiet, reserved type guy and would NEVER blast out
this way. Someone is using his name to spout Dr. Profe's BS. (Gee, I
wonder who it is?)
I hereby challenge them to either identify themselves or stop using
Woody's name. I am E-mailing my phone number to uphouse@sprynet. If the
real Woody calls I and says this is really him, then I will admit to all
that I was wrong. If he doesn't call me (collect if you want Woody since
I know you don't have much $), then I will broadcast that fact so that
all will know that Dr. Profe and his clones are at it again.
Big Ed
>
> Who is this guy Abdul M'hall anyway? Based upon
> his posts he does not know how to win playing
> Blackjack - and if you read his posts carefully
> he said he was a dealer or worked in some way
> for the casinos. What is his real name? Why
> is he hiding his real name? What casino is he
> affiliated with? When I read his "spread to
> 1-4 advice" I almost fell off my chair!
>
> Mr. M'hall sounds a stupid as Arnold
> Snyder! Someone should tell
> con man M'hallI that t's impossible to win
> any real money with only a
> 1 to 4 spread! The best player in the
> world would only make about $6.00 an
> hour playing a $10 minimum if you follow
> this con man's advice! I say let him reveal
> his true identity - stop hiding behind some
> con man name, and then we can deal with
> this obvious casino employee con man
> M'hall. (This guy probably has been
> secretly working for the casinos for years
> like his fellow con men Arnold Snyder and
> Stanford Wong.
>
> (Happy ConJeLCo boys - see ya in court!)
>
> Woody-Paul and those that know the
> truth.
>
> bd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) writes:
> In article <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com>,
> pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
>
> Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
> sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
>
> Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
> at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
> identification of counters as:
>
> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
> 2. Reno Peppermill
> 3. El Dorado
> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
> 5. Treasure Island
>
> Considering that con man M'hall is so stupid he does not
> know how to spread enough to make a card counting system
> work - I doubt if ANY casino would give him a second look -
> (or anyone else that is stupid enough to follow his advice).
>
>
> Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
> talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
> counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
> especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
>
> Arnold Snyder and the Aladdin working hand-in-hand. So what else
> is new. Gosh I wonder
> where Steve Forte fits in - we think we know - pretty dangerous
> action for a convicted felon.
>
>
> What are the
> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
>
> 1. Barbary Coast
> 2. El Cortez
> 3. Reno Sundowner
> 4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
> 5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
>
> Con Man M'hall has been saying all along that "casinos NEVER
> use the preferential shuffle!" Now because of all the heat that Dr.
> Profe created - he now must admit he was lying all along and
> that casinos DO use the preferential shuffle!
>
uph...@sprynet.com
> sngldeck <sngl...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Max Kelson wrote:
> >
> > abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) wrote:
> >
> > > pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
> >
> > >> Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
> > >> sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
> >
> > >Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
> > >at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
> > >identification of counters as:
> >
> > > 1. Harvey's Tahoe
> > > 2. Reno Peppermill
> > > 3. El Dorado
> > > 4. Harrah's Tahoe
> > > 5. Treasure Island
> >
> > >talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
> > >counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
> > >especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
> >
> > >> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
> >
> > > 1. Barbary Coast
> > > 2. El Cortez
> > > 3. Reno Sundowner
> > > 4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
> > > 5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
> >
> > >you, but you won't want to stay anyway because of the other things
> > >they'll do to you.
> >
> > >JSTAT raved about the Reno Hilton, but since before they were the
> > >Reno Hilton (i.e., when they were Bally's), they have been a pathetic
> > >action-hating heat-spewing sawdust dump, disguised as a laid-back high
> > >roller gambling salon. They are stupid, though. Anyway, it just
> > >goes to show you how other peoples' opinions can differ from mine,
> > >and why Snyder and I might disagree on the ease of playing at El
> > >Dorado.
> >
> > >--
> > >Abdul Jalib |
> > > |
> > >abd...@earthlink.net |
> >
> > against proficient card counters:
> >
> > 1. Cheating and Countermeasures
> > 2. Barring
> >
> > These two types of actions would, in general, be mutally exclusive.
> > So, if a casino really is barring players, it's probably a good
> > indication that they are playing an honest game. Casinos that don't
> > bar proficient card counters are obviously using method number 1.
> >
> > I would be surprised, if the Aladdan barred players, since the one
> > shoe game that I audited there was clumped enough that the typical
> > novice, gullible counter would lose his shirt. I'm also surprised
> > that Sam's Town doesn't appear on these lists, since they seem to be
> > one of the casinos that play an honest game.
> >
> > Max
>
>
>
>>>>
Con men and charlatans abound on
Rec.Gambling Blackjack
I say that card counting systems and Poker systems
cannot overcome the house advantage nor sustain
ANY profit advantage against real world casino
conditions. I also say that any author, huckster,
con man, ConJelCo employee or agent, casino
employee or casino agent, race track tout, a bunko
dealing snake oil salesman that says otherwise is
a con man, and is guilty of gross misrepresentation
and outright fraud.
Those individuals that post on this news group stating
that you have ANY sustainable advantage over any
real world casino with ANY BJ card counting system,
Video Poker system, Poker System or race track
system is a con man pure and simple. And so to not
mince words, I will start a list of those that I accuse of
being a casino agent and con man:
1. Arnold Snyder
2. Stanford Wong.
3. Abdul M'hall
The products these above con men represent and sell
are worthless - and even dangerous to your financial
well being. These con men sell fraud and greed and
blue sky and that is all. They have nothing substantive
to contribute to this news group other that false and
fraudulent systems laced with fantastic and absurd
claims of sustainable profits and immense wealth.
I say these (and all other authors of worthless casino
systems) are con men and frauds. I also hereby state
publicly that I have hard evidence that will prove their
systems are incapable of performing to the levels and
representations they have advertised. I also say ALL
authors, and ALL casinos that employ them in any capacity
(employee, secret employee, agent or consultant) should
also be held responsible for any and all losses incurred
by any sucker stupid enough to purchase any system or
software that provides or supports any system that purports
to gain ANY sustainable advantage over any real world
casino.
I am especially concerned with the games of *21* and
Poker as the casinos hire shills for a specific hourly rate
to cheat and control the game. Many of these "secret
employees" are responsible for "pumping up" pots in
Poker and thereby creating additional revenue for the
casinos. In turn, the casinos hire them and pay them in
various ways. (Like allowing them to promote tournaments
and then allowing them to WIN THE TOURNAMENT!)
They should require poker shills, BJ shills and other
"secret casino employees" to wear special identification
badges to identify them as casino employees.
This includes all of those casino shills that suddenly
"occupy seats" whenever a high plus count occurs
in a 21 game.
I further acknowledge and hereby state that I know that my
statements, if untrue, represent outright libel.
Consequently, I HEREBY CHALLENGE ALL CARD
COUNTING AUTHORS AND POKER AUTHORS
AND THE CASINOS THAT EMPLOY THEM,
TO A COURT BATTLE. I BELIEVE I CAN PROVE
WITHOUT QUESTION THAT MY STATEMENTS
HEREIN REPRESENT THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH
- AND I AM WILLING TO BACK UP MY STATEMENTS
IN A COURT OF LAW.
If the authors of such aforementioned systems are
AFRAID
to meet my court challenge, then of course you will then
know WITHOUT DOUBT they are in reality admitting
their systems, software and books are exactly what I
said they are - absurd, fantastic misrepresentations,
and further represent a gross deception and
outright fraud!
So, authors, and their supporters, care to prove
your systems' value in an independent court of law?
Or, admit your systems are exactly
what I say they are!
If you agree to the court challenge, please provide
the name of your lawyer so my lawyer can contact
him. If you intend to defend your system without a
lawyer then state that fact openly and
publicly on this news group, and my lawyer will then contact
you directly.
The time has come to put the lies, libel and
gross misrepresentations to rest once
and for all.
Woody Uphouse
uph...@sprynet.com
Con men and charlatans abound on
uph...@sprynet.com
> Although some may argue they are the same.
>
>
>>>>
Con men and charlatans abound on
Abdul Jalib
In article <57qed9$9...@news.burgoyne.com>,
mke...@burgoyne.com (Max Kelson) writes:
> abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) wrote:
>
>>Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
>>at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
>>identification of counters as:
>
>> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
>> 2. Reno Peppermill
>> 3. El Dorado
>> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
>> 5. Treasure Island
>
>>Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
>>talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
>>counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
>>especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
>
> against proficient card counters:
>
> 1. Cheating and Countermeasures
> 2. Barring
>
> These two types of actions would, in general, be mutally exclusive.
> So, if a casino really is barring players, it's probably a good
> indication that they are playing an honest game. Casinos that don't
> bar proficient card counters are obviously using method number 1.
>
> I would be surprised, if the Aladdan barred players, since the one
> shoe game that I audited there was clumped enough that the typical
> novice, gullible counter would lose his shirt. I'm also surprised
> that Sam's Town doesn't appear on these lists, since they seem to be
> one of the casinos that play an honest game.
>
> Max
The above is why the Aladdin is not terribly worried about counters.
Some counters are no threat! The Aladdin offers an honest shoe game with
ridiculously few cards cut off, and you pass up the game, siting
"clumping"?!
ObDefinition: Clumping - a hypothetical and mostly mythical natural
process by which like-cards get grouped together in the course of the
playing blackjack with "blind" casino pick-up procedures and shuffles.
I can think of some other reasons one might pass up this game, like
"shoes suck even when dealt deep compared to single and double deck" and
"Bill Zender knows his stuff and might nail me", but "clumping"?! In
computer simulations comparing realistic shuffles and pick-up routines
to random shuffles, no significant difference in expected values has
been detected. Clumping is unscientific mumbo jumbo espoused by some
of the least respected blackjack "authorities" including E. Clifton
Davis, Jerry Patterson, Eddie Olsen, and Doug Grant. Some of these
guys claim "clumping" will cost players 5% advantage, making it
impossible to win, when it doesn't even cost .01% in simulations. They
should be talking about *anti*-clumping, because the largest measurable
effect is the anti-clumping of identical-cards like 8's, which are split
apart and then the shuffle is too weak to bring them back together right
away. The idiots have it backwards!
The Aladdin has a known track record of barring players. BJ Forum
mentioned some barrings, which seem to have been done after
reviewing play on video tape, and I know some counters who have been
barred there.
Bill Zender's philosophy is to deal an attractive blackjack game fast to
maximize casino profits. He is fairly counter tolerant but uses skilled
pit critters, some of whom he claims played on Uston's teams, to pick off
the skilled high stakes counters. He feels nickel counters constitute
no threat to the casino's income, and so he does not waste valuable critter
time to identify and bar them. I have seen nickel counters there being
amazingly blatent and getting no flack from the critters.
I've received some feedback in email saying that maybe some of the
casinos I listed are not so tough. I never said it was impossible
to get away with counting at these casinos, simply that they seem
sharper and less counter-tolerant than other casinos. I know that
some counters have gotten away with playing for high stakes at some
of these casinos for years. I also know a lot who have been barred.
If you think a casino should be knocked off the list, please also
propose a tougher casino to take its place.
--
Abdul Jalib |
| Clumping virus detected!
abd...@earthlink.net |
allen...@aol.com
>>>>>>>I would be surprised, if the Aladdan barred players, since the one
shoe game that I audited there was clumped enough that the typical
Max<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Max,
Doesn't the Aladdin use Shuffle Master shuffling machnes on both their
shoe and hand held games. If Shuffle Master equipment is that poor, let
me know so I can sell my stock!
Big Al
zman...@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: Top 5 Barring Casinos in Nevada (was Re: JSTAT Gets
>>Barred!)
>>From: uph...@sprynet.com
From "uph...@sprynet.com"???? From what I read it should be from
"outh...@sprynet.com!!!!
Zman
JSTAT
In article <vd2v75.821.ln@localhost>, abd...@earthlink.net says...
>> abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) wrote:
>>
>>>Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
>>>at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
>>>identification of counters as:
>>
>>> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
>>> 2. Reno Peppermill
>>> 3. El Dorado
>>> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
>>> 5. Treasure Island
>>
>
>If you think a casino should be knocked off the list, please also
>propose a tougher casino to take its place.
>
>--
>Abdul Jalib |
> | Clumping virus detected!
>abd...@earthlink.net |
Harrahs Tahoe and Treasure Island should be knocked off the list
of "heat houses". These carpet joints are listed on the NYSE and
therefore are public.These corporations spend millions of dollars
in advertising and as Humpty Dumpty, they will take a great fall
if they are viewed as "not giving the player a fair shot". Can
you imagine Sam Donaldson or Larry King interviewing the casino
manager after barring a player who plays by the rules like
everyone else? I hope to place a put option on these stocks if
I am thrown out for just seeking entertainment.
JSTAT
John Cantlin
In message <32A11B...@ix.netcom.com> - sngldeck <sngl...@ix.netcom.com>:>>
:>> >In article <56j7lg$8...@news.dtc.hp.com>,
:>> > pc...@cdc.hp.com (Paul Chou ) writes:
:>>
:>> >> Great post by Abdul Jalib M'hall. Question: What are the top 5
:>> >> sharpest casinos in Nevada at identifying card counters?
:>> >Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
:>> >at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
:>> >identification of counters as:
:>>
:>> > 1. Harvey's Tahoe
:>> > 2. Reno Peppermill
:>> > 3. El Dorado
:>> > 4. Harrah's Tahoe
:>> > 5. Treasure Island
:>> >Honorable mention to the Aladdin, whose casino manager, Bill Zender,
:>> >talked the talk in his terrifying article in BJ Forum and scared
:>> >counters away from playing there, and to Laughlin casinos,
:>> >especially the Ramada, which are on their toes and communicate well.
:>> >> What are the
:>> >> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
:>>
:>> > 1. Barbary Coast
:>> > 2. El Cortez
:>> > 3. Reno Sundowner
:>> > 4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
:>> > 5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
:>>
:>> >Dishonorable mention to the Golden Gate, which probably won't bar
:>> >you, but you won't want to stay anyway because of the other things
:>> >they'll do to you.
Regarding the Golden Gate comment, could you be a bit more specific
about "the other things they'll do to you" ? I play there sometimes and
have had no problems.
John Cantlin
John Cantlin
In message <vd2v75.821.ln@localhost> - abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib)Mon,
2 Dec 1996 09:08:15 -0800 writes:
:>
:>In article <57qed9$9...@news.burgoyne.com>,
:>>>Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
:>>>at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
:>>>identification of counters as:
:>>
:>>> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
:>>> 2. Reno Peppermill
:>>> 3. El Dorado
:>>> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
:>>> 5. Treasure Island
:>>
:
proficient in detecting card counters, although if caught, the counter
usually just gets limited to a flat bet.
John Cantlin
Abdul Jalib
In article <581n9u$1sms$1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
Recall that I wrote:
>>> What are the
>> top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
>> 1. Barbary Coast
>> 2. El Cortez
>> 3. Reno Sundowner
>> 4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
>> 5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
Abdul Jalib | Safe posting: do not crosspost from a group infected
| with DIV (Doogie Insanity Virus), as this would
abd...@earthlink.net | spread this terminal disease.
Abdul Jalib
In article <5801rj$i...@lana.zippo.com>,
>>>
>>>>Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
>>>>at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
>>>>identification of counters as:
>>>
>>>> 1. Harvey's Tahoe
>>>> 2. Reno Peppermill
>>>> 3. El Dorado
>>>> 4. Harrah's Tahoe
>>>> 5. Treasure Island
>>>
>>
>>propose a tougher casino to take its place.
>>
>>--
>>Abdul Jalib |
>> | Clumping virus detected!
>>abd...@earthlink.net |
>
>
> Harrahs Tahoe and Treasure Island should be knocked off the list
> of "heat houses". These carpet joints are listed on the NYSE and
> therefore are public.These corporations spend millions of dollars
> in advertising and as Humpty Dumpty, they will take a great fall
> if they are viewed as "not giving the player a fair shot". Can
> you imagine Sam Donaldson or Larry King interviewing the casino
> manager after barring a player who plays by the rules like
> everyone else? I hope to place a put option on these stocks if
> I am thrown out for just seeking entertainment.
I think you are in for a great fall yourself, JSTAT. Let's just take a
look at what one NYSE Nevada casino (not listed above) recently did to
a counter... casino security broke into his room in the middle of the night,
interrogated him in his bed, dragged him downstairs, strip searched him,
threatened he would be arrested for assaulting a security guard (he
offered no resistence), left him locked up and handcuffed for hours, and
then would not let him back into his own room to get to the tens of
thousands of dollars in the room safe, because he did not have ID for
the name the room was listed under. The counter sued and won, but was
awarded a pathetic amount, something like $10K. (Sorry if I have any
details garbled... somebody please feel free to post the whole story. I
didn't mention the name, because the above is hearsay and some of it could
be garbled and I wouldn't want to get sued for libel by this casino, which
apparently has some pretty good lawyers.)
Some NYSE casinos feel free to do stuff like the above, and you think
any of the NYSE casinos would hesitate at mere barring?! I know people
who have been barred at all the above casinos. If you find out the hard
way, don't come whining here later.
Besides, you didn't recommend any replacements.
--
Abdul Jalib | From now on, I think we should refer to the major Nevada
| casinos as the _Wonderful_ NYSE Nevada casinos.
abd...@earthlink.net |
Philip Prentiss
I was just reading about the top five barring casinos and other stuff too,
and how Abdul was mentioning they often don't worry about nickel counters
because it's probably more trouble to eject a nickel counter that to just
let him win.
High stakes counters, on the other hand ...
My question is, how much is high stakes? Can I play at a quarter table
and expect to get away with it? The maximum bet I ever saw was $2000 by a
guy playing on a private table, so that's definitely high stakes, but how
about someone ranging from one to five hundred? On a crowded evening I've
played at ten dollar tables where a $400 bet (not made by me!) didn't
attract that much attention. For you all you high stakes counters out
there with many more months experience than me, or anyone who has a good
guess, what are the maximum practical limits you can get away with without
being barred?
Thanks in advance,
Phil Prentiss
PS Doug Grant: I already know counting doesn't work. It's not necessary
to remind me.
uph...@sprynet.com
Philip Prentiss <ppr...@uic.edu> writes:
I was just reading about the top five barring casinos and other stuff too,
and how Abdul was mentioning they often don't worry about nickel counters
because it's probably more trouble to eject a nickel counter that to just
let him win.
That is an outright lie! M'hall is a casino con man employee
that is simply lying to you. The casinos know that if
a nickel counter can get away with it - he will soon become
a green or black counter. They bar and cheat and identify
nickel card counters just as fast as any other.
(Don't be fooled by the con men like M'hall that posts
on this news group - they are secretly working for
the casinos).
High stakes counters, on the other hand ...
My question is, how much is high stakes? Can I play at a quarter table
and expect to get away with it? The maximum bet I ever saw was $2000 by a
guy playing on a private table, so that's definitely high stakes, but how
about someone ranging from one to five hundred? On a crowded evening I've
played at ten dollar tables where a $400 bet (not made by me!) didn't
attract that much attention. For you all you high stakes counters out
there with many more months experience than me, or anyone who has a good
guess, what are the maximum practical limits you can get away with without
being barred?
Thanks in advance,
Phil Prentiss
You cannot play a winning card counting system anywhere
that I know of FOR ANY STAKES. I have played professionally
for 13 years and I should know - M'hall has NEVER PLAYED
ANYTHING PROFESSIONALLY EXCEPT WORK FOR
CASINOS. Regardless of your wager amounts, if you
are spreading enough to win, or back counting, then
you will experience casin countermeasures that will render
your card counting system worthless. And if that does not
work, they will bar you from play. The casinos are not
stupid - they can read books too. Also, people like con men
M'hall, Snyder and Wong know the only way to make
money off their worthless systems is to SELL THEM TO
SOME SUCKER! So they post lies, libel and outright
fraud to entice suckers to buy their worthless systems
and software. M'hall's post that casinos will not do
anything to nickel card counters is an outright lie
fraud and fabrication. (If you don't believe me just
call the casinos' themselves and ask them!)
Woody Uphouse
uph...@sprynet.com
abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib) writes:
In article <581n9u$1sms$1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
jca...@ibm.net (John Cantlin) writes:
2 Dec 1996 09:08:15 -0800 writes:> >:>
In article <57qed9$9...@news.burgoyne.com>,
mke...@burgoyne.com (Max Kelson) writes:
Based on various sources and some feedback in email (I haven't played
at all these casinos), I would list the top five casinos in Nevada for
identification of counters as:
1. Harvey's Tahoe
2. Reno Peppermill
3. El Dorado
4. Harrah's Tahoe
5. Treasure Island
I think the Horseshoe in LV should be on the list.They appear to be quite
proficient in detecting card counters, although if caught, the counter
usually just gets limited to a flat bet.
Recall that I wrote:
What are the
top 5 paranoid casinos that ban card counters and non-counters alike?
1. Barbary Coast
2. El Cortez
3. Reno Sundowner
4. Cal Neva Reno (flat betting or shuffling rather than barring usually)
5. Binion's Horseshoe (flat betting rather than barring usually)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
Abdul Jalib | Safe posting: do not crosspost from a group infected
| with DIV (Doogie Insanity Virus), as this would
abd...@earthlink.net | spread this terminal disease.
This guy "abdul Jalib M'hall" is a secret casino employee and
a con man. You cannot believe a word he says. I noted that
he recommended that card counters spread only 1-4. That
recommendationt alone
proves he is working for the casinos. Any one knows that
a 1-4 spread CANNOT WIN! So con man M'hall wants you
to buy his worthless system or software, and apply it in such
a manner SO THAT YOU ARE ASSURED OF LOSING! I wonder
who con man, secrect employee, fraud and sleaze ball M'hall
works for?
Woody Uphouse
ed brizzolara
Come on Woody/Dr. Proof, You are not agreeing with Doug again. I think
Doug should sue you for calling him a liar. He posted how a red player
could win and now you are calling him a liar. I hope he sues your ass
off.
Big Ed
rusty...@aol.com
In article <ik1285.np.ln@localhost>, abd...@earthlink.net (Abdul Jalib)
writes:
>If you find out the hard
>way, don't come whining here later.
Without more practice, he *will* find out. I don't however, expect to
hear any whining. Only chest-thumping about how a great player brought
the big bad casino to its knees, but they threw him out. :-)
Meanwhile, I'll bankrupt myself....
Regards,
________________________________________
| sprynet.com - the only Internet
Rusty Martin | Service Provider which can make AOL
| users look like gold medal netizens
______________________________________________________
"You are a sad, strange little man, you have my pity."
-- Told to *WOODY* in "Toy Story"
______________________________________________________
uph...@sprynet.com
No Ed, it's YOU that called Doug a liar and a few other libelous statements.
Those are your words, not mine. I hope you know how to deal with
libel suits and Doug Grant. Becuase from what I hear you
certainly are going to get an opportunity to do so.
Also, you lied when you said that if I called your personal
telephone number you would apologize by saying that
I am any person other than who I say I am - but I have asked
for a time to call you and you are hiding. Why don't you set
a time for me to call and I will (from my lawyer's office so that
I have a witness to the telephone conversation and keep in
mind that I record all conversations with assholes).
Also, I am glad you admitted you know that card counting
no longer works. At least that's one truthful statement -
want to try for another?
Woody
uph...@sprynet.com
sustain any advantage over any real world casino
are liars, con men and frauds. I hereby challenge
them to either prove their fantastic system claims
with an independent mathematical review, or
agree to a lawsuit, in which such will ocurr
anyway. Any Takers - or, do the authors
run and hide once more from the truth?
Gosh - how the con men scatter when anyone asks
for:
1. Proof of their fantastic system claims.
2. A legal court battle to prove who is
lying once and for all.
They also make feeble attempts to claim I and everyone
else that asks for proof is the same person. But then they
post the names of all the DIFFERENT individuals that
post? Could they be that stupid? I guess, at one or two
are.
Woody
Tom Moser
In article <586nbc$h...@juliana.sprynet.com>, uph...@sprynet.com writes:
[snip convoluted history]
>
> No Ed, it's YOU that called Doug a liar and a few other libelous statements.
> Those are your words, not mine. I hope you know how to deal with
> libel suits and Doug Grant. Becuase from what I hear you
You guys really ought to speak to that typist about spelling errors.
> certainly are going to get an opportunity to do so.
>
> Also, you lied when you said that if I called your personal
> telephone number you would apologize by saying that
> I am any person other than who I say I am - but I have asked
> for a time to call you and you are hiding. Why don't you set
> a time for me to call and I will (from my lawyer's office so that
> I have a witness to the telephone conversation and keep in
> mind that I record all conversations with assholes).
You might try using a tape recorder - it is much more convienent. Better
sound quality on playback too.
[snip]
-Tom
ed brizzolara
uph...@sprynet.com wrote:
>
> ed brizzolara <e...@roanoke.infi.net> writes:
> uph...@sprynet.com wrote:
>
>
> Woody Uphouse
>
> Come on Woody/Dr. Proof, You are not agreeing with Doug again. I think
> Doug should sue you for calling him a liar. He posted how a red player
> could win and now you are calling him a liar. I hope he sues your ass
> off.
>
> Big Ed
>
> PS Doug Grant: I already know counting doesn't work. It's not necessary
> to remind me.
>
> Those are your words, not mine. I hope you know how to deal with
> libel suits and Doug Grant. Becuase from what I hear you
>
> Also, you lied when you said that if I called your personal
> telephone number you would apologize by saying that
> I am any person other than who I say I am - but I have asked
> for a time to call you and you are hiding. Why don't you set
> a time for me to call and I will (from my lawyer's office so that
> I have a witness to the telephone conversation and keep in
> mind that I record all conversations with assholes).
>
> no longer works. At least that's one truthful statement -
> want to try for another?
>
> Woody
counting not working was not made be me.
I have sent you my phone number and a time range to call. You want an
exact time and date: This Saturday December 7, 1996 at 7:30 PM EST. You
have the number but I will E-mail it to you again. I await your call.
Big Ed
Michael A. Solinas
uph...@sprynet.com wrote:
>No Ed, it's YOU that called Doug a liar and a few other libelous statements.
>Those are your words, not mine. I hope you know how to deal with
>libel suits and Doug Grant. Becuase from what I hear you
^^^^^^^^
BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!!
> certainly are going to get an opportunity to do so.
Grant, you idiot! Ed was the only one here with a shred of respect
for you, until your sick actions killed it.
Hope you're happy.
Michael A. Solinas
ed brizzolara <e...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
>I have sent you my phone number and a time range to call. You want an
>exact time and date: This Saturday December 7, 1996 at 7:30 PM EST. You
>have the number but I will E-mail it to you again. I await your call.
We all await the call. Ed's comments will carry a lot of weight with
me, and with others here, I'm sure.
Woody - call Ed.
D:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL
In article: <Pine.SOL.3.93.961203...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> Philip Prentiss
<ppr...@uic.edu> writes:
> I was just reading about the top five barring casinos and other stuff too,
> and how Abdul was mentioning they often don't worry about nickel counters
> because it's probably more trouble to eject a nickel counter that to just
> let him win.
>
> High stakes counters, on the other hand ...
>
> My question is, how much is high stakes? Can I play at a quarter table
> and expect to get away with it? The maximum bet I ever saw was $2000 by a
> guy playing on a private table, so that's definitely high stakes, but how
> about someone ranging from one to five hundred? On a crowded evening I've
> played at ten dollar tables where a $400 bet (not made by me!) didn't
> attract that much attention. For you all you high stakes counters out
> there with many more months experience than me, or anyone who has a good
> guess, what are the maximum practical limits you can get away with without
> being barred?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Phil Prentiss
Is Anyone going to respond to the original post, a reasonable question?
Why does every thread turn into a slanging match between Doug, Prof, Boris, Woody and other
negative persons?
There would be no need to moderate the group if no-one responded to replies which were unrelated
to the original post.
Take a look at Misc.Entrpeneurs.moderated, all questions and replies are positive, Isuggest that
one of their moderators be contacted before finally setting up a blackjack moderated.
I would be interested in any answers to the original post.
--
Regards,
Chas Engle
Abdul Jalib
In article <Pine.SOL.3.93.961203...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
Philip Prentiss <ppr...@uic.edu> writes:
>
> I was just reading about the top five barring casinos and other stuff too,
> and how Abdul was mentioning they often don't worry about nickel counters
> because it's probably more trouble to eject a nickel counter that to just
> let him win.
Here is exactly what I said:
| Bill Zender's philosophy is to deal an attractive blackjack game fast to
| maximize casino profits. He is fairly counter tolerant but uses skilled
| pit critters, some of whom he claims played on Uston's teams, to pick off
| the skilled high stakes counters. He feels nickel counters constitute
| no threat to the casino's income, and so he does not waste valuable critter
| time to identify and bar them. I have seen nickel counters there being
| amazingly blatent and getting no flack from the critters.
I was simply paraphrasing Bill "Aladdin" Zender's stated stance (see his
old BJ Forum article) on nickel counters and my observations confirming
Bill's statements. Don't overgeneralize like one delusional person did.
(You would think that delusional person would believe Bill Zender, since
he believes a casino's statement to stockholders that says counters
cannot win and he does nothing but call us players liars. :)
> High stakes counters, on the other hand ...
>
> My question is, how much is high stakes? Can I play at a quarter table
> and expect to get away with it? The maximum bet I ever saw was $2000 by a
> guy playing on a private table, so that's definitely high stakes, but how
> about someone ranging from one to five hundred? On a crowded evening I've
> played at ten dollar tables where a $400 bet (not made by me!) didn't
> attract that much attention. For you all you high stakes counters out
> there with many more months experience than me, or anyone who has a good
> guess, what are the maximum practical limits you can get away with without
> being barred?
You may find that you suffer fewer barrings at $100 levels than at
$25 levels. This is because the casino experiences a lot more $25
counters than $100 counters. At the $500 minimum level, things
start to get pretty dicey; the casino sees very few purple counters, and
that might buy you some time, but they will sweat the action regardless
and be very pissed when they discover that you are counting. Higher
than that, there are very few normal players (i.e., morons) that can
afford more than $500 minimums, and so if you play that high, you have
to have a very good act and story ("Hi, I'm Joe Rockafeller, and this is
my kept woman, Babs; we just have a short refueling stopover in Vegas
[in my private jet] on the way to the Republic convention and decided
to pop in here for a few quick hands. I'm looking forward to talking
to Bob Dole again.")
I would put the practical limit at $200 minimums, though the
envelope can be pushed considerably if you are smart.
Black action counters sometimes get listed in the Griffin
book when barred (by no means always), and higher action counters
will usually get listed when barred at Griffin-subscribing casinos.
An interesting quandary is that skilled players using exotic techniques
(e.g., shuffle tracking, call-ins, card location) are less likely to
be barred than normal counters, but when exotic technique players are
barred, the casino generally reacts much more violently (e.g. report
to Griffin, physical attacks, trespass act, accusation of using
computer, arrest), out of its fear of the unknown.
> PS Doug Grant: I already know counting doesn't work. It's not necessary
> to remind me.
I got the impression that indeed you weren't a counting kind of guy,
so why worry about it? If you play like a moron, you can play $500
minimums or higher with little (albeit non-zero) risk of being barred.
--
Abdul Jalib | Jihad on Sprynet.com!
| Help in the fight against Doug Grant sprynet spam, see:
abd...@earthlink.net | http://home.earthlink.net/~abdulj/dg-index.html
Philip Prentiss
First of all, let me say that it was not Ed Brizzola who wrote "I already
know counting doesn't work ...," it was me, and I didn't write it because
I believed it, I wrote it in hopes of avoiding the knee jerk Doug Grant
mantra "I will sue you all." My mistake, I think, was assuming that Doug
would actually read the message before replying.
Anyway, my apologies to anyone who even considered I was agreeing with
Doug, and Abdul thank you thank you for finally answering my original
post. You are correct my ducks aren't quite disciplined enough to handle
a $25 minimum table quite yet ... but not to worry they consider no God
but the God of Statistical Distribution.
Phil Prentiss
MR.T
Mr. Grant,
I have won over 2 million dollars in the last eight years playing
blackjack in Las Vegas Casinos.