Mashing for russian rye sourdough breads
hofer
traditionally russian so-called "improved" rye sourdough breads call
for rye malt and rye flour "no-sparge" mashing.
This mashing stage ("zavarka") takes about 1.5-2 hours (for some breads
even more) at 62-65C and carried out by adding "striking" boiling water
to the rye flour and malt grains. In industry this stage is performed
in mashing tans that have a tubing system for heating/cooling the mash.
Afterwards the mash should cooled down to about 30C before starter is
added and fermentation starts. I didn't find the explanation (and maybe
somebody has it) for the recipie requirement that the cooling to take
5-7 hours and not as in All-Grain brewing where boiled wort should be
cooled as quickly as possible to improve cold break and avoid
contamination.
Even at my quite hot climate when average temperatures now of about
24-25C the cooling takes about 3 hours. Yes, it's 4kg and not 4 tons
but the recipie sounds like cooling is a part of a process and not a
constraint.
Anyway the bread is gorgeous...
Jonathan Kandell
about it here some years ago. I like scalded ryes, particularly
Borodinsky. I haven't tried using boiling cider as in some Latvian
recipes. I think the reason for cooling is that you don't want the
temperature to kill the sourdough starter. It takes me an hour or two
to cool it down sufficiently.
The scalding produces a noticeable "porridge" taste and smell, sort of
sweet. My question is why do some recipes say to use scalding hot but
not boiling water? I haven't myself noticed any difference in the
final product with boiling versus scalding hot water.
What kind of scalded rye are you making?
You might find this thread interesting
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.sourdough/msg/12fa6733d1830b20?hl=en
hofer wrote:
> Seems a curious and interesting fact for both above groups:
> traditionally russian so-called "improved" rye sourdough breads call
> for rye malt and rye flour "no-sparge" mashing.
> This mashing stage ("zavarka") takes about 1.5-2 hours (for some breads
> even more) at 62-65C and carried out by adding "striking" boiling water
> to the rye flour and malt grains. [...]
hofer
Of coarse, Ronald Feldstein. Thanks to him I started practicing
Borodinsky bread.
For some time it was his "Bolgov's recipe" Borodinsky. Ronald
translated "zavarka" as "scald" but the word is not self-explaining.
Actually it is mashing - saccarification. All the recipies for mashed
bread call for 92-97C water, i.e. near boiling. This temperature of
water (called striking water in all-grain brewing) is definded by
desired end temperature. When adding necessary amount of water to flour
(acc. to 1986y standard for Borodinsky)and then the rye malt, the mash
("zavarka") achieves less than 62C. I put it at the oven heated to
65-70C to keep the temperature in the 62-65C range for about 2 hours.
The link for multistep mashing is very interesting, as homebrewing
itself, but not much relevant: even in professional brewing today with
well modified malt the single infusion method (one step - one
temperature of about 150F)is the most accepted.
The question about cooling was: Why sometimes 5-7 hours (as for Rijsky
bread)and not 3 hours that is enough time to cool down to 30C. My guess
is it is because it is industrial recipe and to cool down tons of dough
takes more time than kilos.
BTW, once (can't find the link for the moment) Ronald Feldstein got an
answer about the nature of the malt in Rrussian rye breads, but didn't
accept it. He was sure that non-diastatic malt was used. I suppose it
was because of limited sources. Today the question could be answered
formally: the bread complies standard X, made from ingredients
complying and definded by standard Y, and so on.
That makes for me baking russian-kind bread an exciting experience:
it's a living thing feeding tens of millions people, backed up by
modern industry and science.
Like homebrew in US.
hofer
Drew Avis
> 24-25C the cooling takes about 3 hours. Yes, it's 4kg and not 4 tons
> but the recipie sounds like cooling is a part of a process and not a
> constraint.
>
> Anyway the bread is gorgeous...
Sounds like it is. Does the mashing stage make for a sweeter bread, or are
the sugars consumed during the short fermentation? What's the recipe, and
did you just make a home-made starter, or did you buy a commercial one?
Drew
www.strangebrew.ca
www.sourceforge.net/projects/strangebrew
hofer
> the sugars consumed during the short fermentation?
enzimes convert starches to sugars, mostly maltose. When starter added,
maltose is happily lowered by yeast enzimes to sucrose and eaten.
Subsequently, at the dough stage, molasses and sugar are added. As
bread is sour-sweet (and should be like this according to description),
the yeasts live us some sugar... Maltose substantionally improves
rising and baking qualities of bread. With only a sourdough starter (no
bakers yeast) and 85% rye flour the bread is very light.
>What's the recipe, and
> did you just make a home-made starter, or did you buy a commercial one?
I use Carl's starter: thank you, Carl's friends!
The recipe has two standard versions: 4 stage (with sponge) and 3 stage
(w/o sponge).
Storage starter (usually 1 week old) is very thick: about 60%
hidration.
And this is the 4-stage recipe.
...Start early. The mashing/cooling takes 4-5 hours and preparing
working starter 3-4 hours: could be launched about the same time.
I make 4 loafs: should the recipe be for 2 loafs ~900g each.
Working starter: 70g storage starter, 60g whole rye flour, 40g water.
Ferments 180-240 min at 25-28C.
The mash: to 150g whole rye flour (I use themoresistant up to 100C
plastic bowl)add about half of 500ml nearly boiling (96-98C) water, mix
well, add the rest of the water, mix. Add 50g rye malt and 3g freshly
ground coriander.
To folks who are not strangebrew and not brew at all: rye malt sold at
homebrew stores. Ask not to crash: it is better coarsly grind it before
adding to flour-water mix. Put the cover on the bowl and get the bowl
in the oven heated to about 70-80C. I use alarm type digital
thermometer to look after the temperature. It is important not to surf
out of the 63-65C range. After 90-120 min take the bowl out. Don't
forget to smell it but beware: it is addicting! Let it cool down to
about 30C for 2-3 hours.
Sponge: add 170g of the working starter and 350g of rye flour to the
cool mash and mix well. Almost forgotten, you mix with, for example,
with wide and short wooden spoon. After mixing you start knead. How to
make kneading rye dough easy and pleasant? Knead in the bowl with wet
hands. When the hands wet the dough doesn't stick. Kneading this way is
quite a pleasant experience: somehow reminds happy childhood. Knead
about 10 min. I knead 5 minutes but I'm lazy.
Important note: In any case, don't improvise with water and flour
quantities!
Don't add flour or water because it looks like it will help to add
water or flour. You will manage with the quantities of the recipe just
wet the hands. I measure ingredients with electronic weight. Do
remember: it's a GOST standard!
...Once I have forgotten to add 350g flour to the sponge (700g for 4
loafs) and have managed! Call it tolerant bread!
Live the sponge to ferment for 210-240min at 28-30C.
Dough: mix 200g rye flour and 150g wheat bread flour. Dilute 10g of
salt and 60g of sugar in 100g water (hard work!). Add the flour, the
sugar-salt solution, 40g of black molasses and about half of 2g more
ground coriander to the sponge. Mix and knead (wet hands down!) for
10-15min (me 5min).
Live the dough rise for 60-90 min in the bowl at 28-30C.
For the last rise divide the dough between two bread pans (I use
silicon ones), throw the rest of coriander on it and let rise for about
50 min at 32-34C. To provide humidity spritz water on the top of the
dough and inside poliethilen bags put the pans into the bags (or smth
else, more appropriate).
Preheat the oven to ~250C. Spritz, bake about 50 min at 200-220C. Watch
the crust; if necessary shield by alufoil. I used to bake up to 205F
inner temperature.
After the bread out of the oven, spritz on it immediately or smear on
it 3% potato starch solution.
Jonathan Kandell
> All the recipies for mashed
> bread call for 92-97C water, i.e. near boiling. This temperature of
> water (called striking water in all-grain brewing) is definded by
> desired end temperature. When adding necessary amount of water to flour
> (acc. to 1986y standard for Borodinsky)and then the rye malt, the mash
> ("zavarka") achieves less than 62C. I put it at the oven heated to
> 65-70C to keep the temperature in the 62-65C range for about 2 hours.
Forgive my naivite but could you explain why 62-65C ideal?
> The link for multistep mashing is very interesting, as homebrewing
> itself, but not much relevant: even in professional brewing today with
> well modified malt the single infusion method (one step - one
> temperature of about 150F)is the most accepted.
The Detmer sourdough process uses a multistep process at different
temperatures to favor different bacteria and yeasts. Could the same
multi-stage control of heat not affect the flavor of the scald? (Note
the different enzyme ranges in http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f79.gif)
As they say at http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16.html,
"There are two basic schemes for mashing: Single Temperature - a
compromise temperature for all the mash enzymes, and Multi-Rest- where
two or more temperatures are used to favor different enzyme groups.
You can heat the mash in two ways also, by the addition of hot water
(Infusion) or by heating the mash tun directly. There is also a
combination method, called Decoction Mashing, where part of the mash
is heated on the stove and added back to the main mash to raise the
temperature. All of these mashing schemes are designed to achieve
saccharification (starch conversion to fermentable sugars). But the
route taken to that goal can have a considerable influence on the
overall wort character."
jk
hofer
>temperatures to favor different bacteria and yeasts. Could the same
>multi-stage control of heat not affect the flavor of the scald? (Note
jk
Do you mean "Detmold 3 stage"? These all 3 stages are sponge/dough
fermentations. Borodinsky is made by 4 stages where the first stage
("scald", "mashing", "zavarka", "porridge": doesn't matter how to call
it) doesn't involve any yeast and any bacteria. It is gelatinization of
starch (have a glance at
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.sourdough/browse_thread/thread/9bd1780a966dc939/77e30d99c78dcf08#77e30d99c78dcf08
for discussion for "porridge" bread) which is followed by
saccrification of this gelatinized starch by amylase enzymes from added
malt grains. Only after the saccarification has already taken place and
the mash has cooled down, the starter is added and 3 not-Detmold stages
of sponge and dough
fermentation by yeasts and LB starts.
About this diagram for Typical in Mash Enzyme Ranges: see the note
below the table:
"The above numbers ...should be interpreted as typical optimum activity
ranges. The enzymes will be active outside the indicated ranges..."
and eventually http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html:
"A compromise of all factors yields the standard mash conditions for
most home brewers: ... temperature of 150-155°F and a time of about
one hour. These conditions yield a wort with a nice maltiness and good
fermentability."
Fermentability means here ability to convert starches to sugars by
amylases.
The above is the basis for the single-infusion mashing method somewhere
in-between optimum temperatures for both alfa- and beta-amylases. BTW,
there are other recipes for mashed breads which stand for 65-67C.
Giving the credit to the anonym authors for russian scalded breads
(anonym, because these are standard technological instructions), I
don't feel any drive to experiment with these temperatures. At least to
understand what it is about is meantime my ultimate goal.