Detmolder-3 is used to get rises out of rye breads that should be risen.
Mike
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wordsmith
Having consumed much vodka, I ventured onto your blog. At first the
photographs seemed in need of better light, but bread does resist good
photography. The photos improved with each page. The blog was
compelling and difficult to put down, in a virtual sort of way.
However, by the end, I was ready for less analysis and a simple
conclusion, i.e., Next time I shall use the crock pot, or, Next time I
shall not knead rye as though it were wheat flour. You get the idea.
Your description of the flavor (not the jerky loaf) inspires one to
make pumpernickel. I would truly like to taste the bread. No really.
In conclusion, I think you must write papers for JANNAF or AIAA
conferences. A radar plot from Excel was conspicuously missing.
Good work. Very nice bread.
Ed Bechtel
> I'm sure that this has been discussed, but I'm not clear on why you are
> using the Detmolder-3 process to make pumpernickel.
Hey Mike, thanks for contributing.
I really have no rationale for using the Detmolder-3 process. After looking
again at Samartha's write up, http://tinyurl.com/y2mcrx, I saw he used
"Samartha's Lazy Woo/Maan's Sourdough Calculator"
(http://tinyurl.com/y4x54z) not his Detmold-3 calculator.
As you are aware, I am a novice. That said, I will venture into theory. I
assume that the purpose of the natural leaven inoculation is to acidify the
dough. That acidification allows the rye dough to form starches which gives
the bread its structure.
Thus, if those assumptions are correct, whether the inoculation comes from a
Detmold-3 build or a full-sour, rye starter is probably immaterial.
However, a simple inoculation is much less difficult in the home environment
than the Detmold-3 process. Under the KISS theory (Keep It Simple Stupid)
the straight inoculation would be preferred.
However, the straight inoculation method posits the question what percentage
inoculation is needed to sufficiently acidify the dough under what
conditions? For example, using X% inoculation ensures that three hours
fermenting at room temperature (70F to 80F) produces sufficient acidity in
the final dough where p < .05 (e.g., success is achieved in 95 out of 100
trials)? Of course, let's not forget the egg giving the birth to this
aforementioned "chicken." That is, how to build that dough inoculation to
ensure success again with p<.05 in the first place.
>Pumpernickel is an all but un-risen bread. Dense, heavy and intense.
> Detmolder-3 is used to get rises out of rye breads that should be risen.
Again, I am a novice. If the Pumpernickel Police mandate that, "un-risen
bread that is dense, heavy, and intense" be added to the definition of
Pumpernickel bread, I will comply. I will rename the risen bread recipe
Pumper-litenickel bread <g>. I already know based on Dick's posts concerning
the Pumpernickel Police, resistance is futile <g>.
Recently, in the Culture war thread (http://tinyurl.com/v7fzp) you pointed
out: "I think you are introducing too many variables to make the
bread reproducible (see: http://tinyurl.com/y95z6p).
As usual, you hit the nail squarely on the head with the hammer. Your
insight also applies here.
My purpose is to operationally define an end result which is acceptable to
the Pumpernickel Police and that provides sufficient information concerning
ingredients and methods to ensure that another sourdough dummy like myself,
with basic sourdough baking skills, can pick-up the recipe, spend several
hours time over two days (+/-) and end up with a satisfactory result 95
times out of 100. As I pointed out here http://tinyurl.com/yzqpk6, real
Pumpernickel recipes are virtually non-existent.
Finally, I added links pointing to this thread on the site this morning. As
always, thanks for your time and help in this effort.
Best regards,
Ray
> Having consumed much vodka, I ventured onto your blog. At first the
> photographs seemed in need of better light, but bread does resist good
> photography. The photos improved with each page.
Thanks for reading and writing, Ed. This is the first time I posted
pictures on the web. I have a Minolta Dimage X camera, which by today's
standards perhaps takes low resolution images. However, for posting they
are huge. Anyone on dial-up would have plenty of time to make bread while
they loaded. So, I cropped and decreased the resolution hoping to make the
pictures accessible to most everyone.
I also have warm (3500K) CFL (compact fluorescent) lighting in my kitchen so
some were impacted by that and are too yellow. As time goes on, perhaps I
will learn more about this and improve.
> Your description of the flavor (not the jerky loaf) inspires one to
> make pumpernickel. I would truly like to taste the bread. No really.
Great, I am so happy. Join in and help develop a tried and true
Pumpernickel recipe that a sourdough dummy like me can make without too much
trepidation.
> In conclusion, I think you must write papers for JANNAF or AIAA
> conferences. A radar plot from Excel was conspicuously missing.
Ed, an Excel radar plot, if one exists, would only be available to persons
with the highest security clearances from the Pumpernickel Police. Persons
who have such clearances cannot, under penalty of being confined to a small
room in an undisclosed location and fed only three sourdough bricks per day
with a small sides of water for life, reveal that they have such clearances
unless it is to another person having such clearance. So if you want an
Excel radar plot, assuming such a plot even exists, you will need to provide
me with papers <g>. That is, if you are willing to risk the aforementioned
penalty if I do not have proper clearance :-).
Best regards,
Ray
> Ed, an Excel radar plot, if one exists, would only be available to persons
> with the highest security clearances from the Pumpernickel Police. Persons
> who have such clearances cannot, under penalty of being confined to a small
> room in an undisclosed location and fed only three sourdough bricks per day
> with a small sides of water for life, reveal that they have such clearances
> unless it is to another person having such clearance. So if you want an
> Excel radar plot, assuming such a plot even exists, you will need to provide
> me with papers <g>. That is, if you are willing to risk the aforementioned
> penalty if I do not have proper clearance :-).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ray
Ed replies:
You make me laugh. I apologize for the inferrence that you were an
engineer / scientist by day. Your reply should be, I'm no scientist, I
just found this calculator.
Regardless, that looks like great bread. Based on your description a
radar graph is available describing the quality of your pumpernickel
over the 44 hours of its creation.
http://www.skideezie.com/Bread/pumpernickelradar.gif
Ed Bechtel
> Regardless, that looks like great bread. Based on your description a
> radar graph is available describing the quality of your pumpernickel
> over the 44 hours of its creation.
>
> http://www.skideezie.com/Bread/pumpernickelradar.gif
>
> Ed Bechtel
It was nice talking with you Ed. Sorry, I never got to meet you in person.
Unfortunately, if I were you I'd keep a sharp eye out over my shoulder. I
fully expect you to experience a rendition by the Pumpernickel Police for
this wanton declassification. Many brave yeast and lactobacilli sacrificed
their lives to garner this once highly classified Pumpernickel intelligence
graph <g>.
Regards,
Ray
- the 10 % sourdough are because the bread would oversour due to the
long time in the oven.
- the sourdough.de site has changed and the URL does not work. Who knows
where they keep their stuff now.
- Yes, I put the pans into water in the oven and also poured water
inside the pans. That helped. The problem is drying out and cracking.
- the pullman pans are expensive, I saw one once - like $ 50. I am not
spending $ 200 for four pans. I got stainless steel now. If a crock pot
works - hey, that's great, use it.
To get a pumpernickel idea, go to a German or delicacy store or order
over the Internet.
Imo it's not all the detail you are asking. It's how you can create
something similar in your environment. 100 % rye, coarse with mixed
granularity, low starter inoculation, some bulk ferment, long bake at
low temperature in high humidity. I think you get it more by doing than
by theorizing. And you should have an idea what the "real" thing is by
getting a sample from somewhere. Not the US stuff, Ruebschlager
(Chicago, I think) - look at the label, where it is manufactured.
Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.
I don't have the time to relive your pumpernickel experience, follow
tiny URL's, reread it all.
See, how far that gets you,
Samartha
PS.: I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to. And what does
another web server need to know what my ideas are what to show other
people? Zilch!
WRK wrote:
[ a lot ]
> since I am too busy baking to figure out News ID's, I may have to implore
> Dick A to help me post if and when Google closes this thread.
Dunno how Google can do that. But OK -- what you can do is circumvent
Google by using a newsreader, like the one which comes with Outlook
Express, for instance, to cut Google out of the picture. Google simply
relays the Usenet newsgroups, of which this one is one.
"Samartha Deva" <sdnews-inbox...@samartha.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.36.1160930050....@www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Oh man - I am very short on time ...
But how dearly we appreciate the few moments you can succeed
to find to spend with us!
> I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
> directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to. And what does
> another web server need to know what my ideas are what to show other
> people? Zilch!
Hating will just make you old/older sooner.
Well, personally, when it comes to URLs for individual newsposts in the
Google archive, I do like the trick of prefixing the news ID with
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
which, does, unfortunately make a long item, requiring some attention
to avoid being broken into two or more lines by the your newsreader
when it uploads your post.
That, in Outlook Express, can be accomplished in the following way:
Tools>Options>Send>News Sending Format>Plain Text>Plain Text Settings
>Mime>Quoted Printable. That works for me, but I must manage
my own margins. Maybe there are other ways.
Keeping lines short may avoid getting them all chopped up by
unsophisticated requoters. 66 characters is a good length for lines.
For finding the news ID of post in the Google archive, please see
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=XYSWg.48734$QZ1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
Anyway, I must say you all are a good group nowadays, seldom requoting
much garbage, managing your line breaks, and usually referencing what you
are commenting on/replying to.
Also including links to photos. I just love pictures!
--
Dicky
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Please, whenever you are
short on time respond in "pumpernickel time." That is, within 2 to 5 days
or if building the rye starter from scratch, 7 to 10+ days would be
expected.<g>
On October 15, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote:
> To get a pumpernickel idea, go to a German or delicacy store or order
> over the Internet.
I have a friend who works for Siemens in Orlando. Group team-members make
trips to Berlin and Muelheim an der Ruhr/ Dussledorf relatively frequently.
I could ask if someone would back some Pumpernickel bread for me, assuming
it will clear customs. Do you have a brand recommendation that might be
widely distributed within either of those cities?
> Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.
1) How much moisture loss is expected if properly baked? That is, if the
dough weighed 1000g, properly baked the bread would weigh roughly_______g
immediately upon removing from the oven?
2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?
3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days before
slicing.
4) Is true Pumpernickel ever allowed to rise in the pan before baking?
5) Have you discovered an optimal oven temperature for the long bake? Is it
continuous or do you start high and reduce _X_ hours later?
> See, how far that gets you,
I love the pumpernickel I have made so far. It would not have been possible
if you had not spent so much time describing your initial efforts on your
site. Like many others, I am indebted to you for those efforts. If and
when you ever have the time, I ask that you look to make sure I have
appropriately credited your work in my posts. I would be very unhappy with
myself if I slighted your work. Please know it would be unintentional.
> PS.: I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
> directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to.
Excellent point. I never even thought about that. I too, hate being
hijacked to an unknown location. I used the tiny URLS to prevent line
breaks in long links and spare readers a cut and paste to get to the site.
Based on your point, I will attempt to provide both: Standard URLS followed
by (tiny URLS enclosed like this) when I think a standard link is too long
and may be broken in the post.
Again, thank you very much for your time and assistance.
Regards,
Ray
Dick Adams wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.sourdough/browse_thread/thread/af41b21eb87cdca6/84697ff87f960f7e?#84697ff87f960f7e
Many thanks Dick. This is going to take some time for me to digest and
understand. So, put this email in my misc. saves folder. To be honest, I
would much prefer to bake some bread than figure it out right now:)
I sincerely appreciate your trying to help but I freely admit to a one trick
pony mentality. Right now it is focused on sourdough in general and
pumpernickel in particular.
Best regards,
Ray
You mean:
news:RhMYg.72433$QZ1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
???
> To be honest, I would much prefer to bake some bread than
> figure it out right now:)
You have to be able to figure out simple stuff! Otherwise you will
need to be demoted to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/
Our lives are made ever more complicated by unscrupulous
operators interposing themselves as middlemen between us and our
rightful stuff. Avoiding their plots can make you free/free-er.
--
Dicky
> I have a friend who works for Siemens in Orlando. Group team-members make
> trips to Berlin and Muelheim an der Ruhr/ Dussledorf relatively frequently.
> I could ask if someone would back some Pumpernickel bread for me, assuming
> it will clear customs. Do you have a brand recommendation that might be
> widely distributed within either of those cities?
Baked goods can be brought into US without restriction and don't need to
be declared. Fruit, vegetables, plants, meat and dairy products cannot.
The commercial Pumpernickels I have seen since I became more aware about
the "normal" things in Germany all had molasses added. This is contrary
to the official "pure recommendations" - no molasses or other additives
I found elsewhere. I don't remeber particular brands.
Trying to categorize Pumpernickels, I come up with:
A - Pumpernickels baked much earlier than consolidated mass production
done nowadays. Maybe it was done as described in Hamelmans book where
the remaining heat in a large oven after regular baking was done.
B - Pumpernickels baked commercially today mass produced in specialized
ovens/factories.
The Hofpfisterei bakery in Munich is now selling organic Pumpernickels
in their stores but they are produced by another bakery.
C - Pumpernickels "relived" by sourheads on this forum and elsewhere in
a non-commercial setting.
>> Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.
>
> 1) How much moisture loss is expected if properly baked? That is, if the
> dough weighed 1000g, properly baked the bread would weigh roughly_______g
> immediately upon removing from the oven?
I measured 20 % at one point.
> 2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
> Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?
The recipe I found (on the web) mentioned a 1-stage starter. A 3-Stage
would surely work as well. It may matter when you make 100 kg dough or more.
> 3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
> cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days before
> slicing.
I have no clue. I can't use it as long as it is hot or soft in the
middle. My guess is that after one day this is gone.
> 4) Is true Pumpernickel ever allowed to rise in the pan before baking?
What is true Pumpernickel - A, B, or C, and who allows?
My thinking is that in B, any delay will be avoided if possible - time
is money. In C, you may want to get it the oven quick. The taste is not
so much developed by the starter, it comes with the long baking.
If you want duplicate a B type pumpernickel bread in your kitchen, good
luck with the structure, it won't be easy. To get the taste somewhat
similar, it's easier.
> 5) Have you discovered an optimal oven temperature for the long bake? Is it
> continuous or do you start high and reduce _X_ hours later?
No - I use only one temperature without variation. My oven has an
automatic shutoff after maybe 12 hours and needs to be turned on again.
[..]
> Again, thank you very much for your time and assistance.
No prob. & thanks for your links/credits.
Below I paste the text of that malfunctioning link (German PN recipe):
Pumpernickel
1-stufige Sauerteigführung mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig mit Pumpernickel-Restbrot
(für 10 kg gesamte Schrotmenge berechnet)
50 % Roggenschrot fein
50 % Vollkorn-Roggenschrot mittel
Sauerteig: 0,05 kg Anstellgut Teigausbeute: 200 (ca.)
0,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigtemperatur: 28 — 30 °C
0 50 l Wasser Stehzeit: 15 — 20 Stunden
1,05 kg Sauerteig
Anstellgut vom reifen Sauerteig abnehmen oder
mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig neu starten
Pumpernickel- 1,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
Restbrot: 3,00 l Wasser Temperatur: 30 — 40 °C) Stehzeit: 4 — 6 Stunden
Brotteig:
1,00
kg
Sauerteig
4,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
4,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigknetung:
5,00 kg Roggenschrot fein Hubkneter:15 — 20 Min. langsam
3,50 l Wasser (ca.) Spiralkneter:15 Minuten langsam
0,10 kg Salz Teigausbeute: 170 (ca.)
0 10 kg Hefe Teigtemperatur: 28 — 30 °C
18,20 kg Brotteig Teigruhe: 30 — 45 Minuten
Nach der Teigruhe den Teig nochmals kurz durchkneten und in
doppelwandige Backkästen legen. Nach der Gärzeit in die Backkästen
Wasser geben und in den Ofen schieben. Während der Backzeit öfter Wasser
nachfüllen, damit immer feuchte Backhitze herrscht.
Backtemperatur: 160 °C, fallend auf 120 °C
Backzeit: 20 — 24 Stunden
Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your time and help.
On October 18, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote: (denoted by >, previous text from
me are >>)
>Trying to categorize Pumpernickels, I come up with:
>A - Pumpernickels baked much earlier than consolidated mass production
>done nowadays. Maybe it was done as described in Hamelmans book where
>the remaining heat in a large oven after regular baking was done.
>B - Pumpernickels baked commercially today mass produced in specialized
>ovens/factories.
>The Hofpfisterei bakery in Munich is now selling organic Pumpernickels
>in their stores but they are produced by another bakery.
>C - Pumpernickels "relived" by sourheads on this forum and elsewhere in
>a non-commercial setting.
I am trying to make "C."
>> 2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
>> Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?
>The recipe I found (on the web) mentioned a 1-stage starter. A 3-Stage
>would surely work as well. It may matter when you make 100 kg dough or
>more.
In building the one-stage starter is the proofing temperature important ?
>From the prototype recipe,
"starter is given 15 to 20 hours standing time in an 84-86F environment to
develop before incorporating into the dough."
Do you try to maintain 84-86F when building your 1-stage starter?
>> 3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
>> cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days
>> before
>> slicing.
>I have no clue. I can't use it as long as it is hot or soft in the
>middle. My guess is that after one day this is gone.
The last loaves I baked came out of the oven 10/12/06. They were sliced
10/13/06. Since that time the round loaf has been in a brown paper bag
placed cut-side down. As of this morning (10/19/06), it still leaves a
slight residue on the knife when sliced. The center remains moist and chewy
but it does not stick to one's teeth. The flavor is absolutely wonderful.
I think it is more mellow now and perhaps the complexity is more
perceivable.
Note that the round loaf retained 95% of its pre-bake weight after removal
from the oven. Twenty-two hours later it was roughly 86% of its pre-bake
weight. My guess is that if this loaf remained un-sliced and wrapped in
baker's linen or a (lint-free towel) it would take 5 to 10 days to cure or
"dry out." Did I under bake it? Would that be completely outside the
expected range?
The pan loaf was placed in plastic wrap roughly 3 days ago. I thought that
the moisture might better migrate out to the crust wrapped in plastic. As
of today, the pan loaf leaves very little residue on the knife from slicing.
The center is nearly completely dry. However, its taste is sharper-- more
pungent. The slight "burned" taste remains. Thus, imho the round loaf is
quite superior to my palate.
[..]
Many thanks. Get back to me as time allows. I have stepped back from the
project to reflect and gather more information before trying again, perhaps
next week.
Regards,
Ray