Sourdough Jack
Boron Elgar
specifically because it had the original packet still attached.
This will be fun. I will post results (if any).
When it showed up, The Hub recognized it as a book his dad had used
many many many years ago. If I can get teh starter going, I think I
will pass some along to my FIL, along with the book, as a gift.
Samartha Deva
Good luck! But make sure you use scalded flour otherwise you may be
fooling yourself (and your FIL).
Samartha
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Dick Adams
"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qtg1fv0tsra6t33pq...@4ax.com...
> I got a copy of "Sourdough Jack" on ebay last week. I bought it
> specifically because it had the original packet still attached.
> This will be fun. I will post results (if any).
Consider these suggestions:
Do not use the whole packet. Split it into many aliquots, even as many as 10.
Scale the flour and water accordingly, for the first feeding.
Use branded white flour from a freshly opened package (or get instructions
from Samartha about sterilizing the flour).
Use boiled water. Dishwasher clean is probably sterile enough for vessels
and implements.
Run a flour control along with each attempt at revival. You know what that
means: everything the same, except no SDJ flakes.
It is unlikely that a dry start can revive after decades, but there are SDJ devotees
out there who insist otherwise.
---
DickA
Boron Elgar
It'll be a couple of weeks before I even start, thought I have a
feeling a few more weeks will not have much of an effect on this
packet that has been bouncing aournd for a looooong time.
When you mention scalded flour, do you just mean pouring boiling water
over it & when cooled (and I assumed covered in a sterile or close
container) using that as the starter base?
Boron
Samartha Deva
> When you mention scalded flour, do you just mean pouring boiling water
> over it & when cooled (and I assumed covered in a sterile or close
> container) using that as the starter base?
Exactly - the process is not 100 % clean but it sure will reduce the
germ count and with it the chances that something else grows.
Ed Wood described in his book "World SD's from Antiquity" that it took
irradiation of 500,000 rads for 12 hours to be sterile (not sure if
that's what was necessary or if that was only the lowest of the three
test he did and it was sterile). That's for the scope of the project.
Since it takes time for every hard core SD patriot to get his/her own
irradiation equipment (even harder now with all the paranoia going on
with getting hold of a radiation source), I have used this:
The hydration I use is 200 %. I use flour and put it on a plastic
container on a scale. Then I boil water and pour boiling water, 100 % of
flour weight onto the flour, stir it quickly with a chop stick to make
sure everything gets wet. Then once everything is wet, I pour on the
other 100 % of boiling water and stir it as well. Then cover it and let
it cool down in the fridge.
Why 200 % (normally, all my starter have 100 %) hydration? - because the
consistency of the flour changes, it gets more gluey and 200 % turned
out to be similar in usage than 100 % hydration with dry flour.
Why 2 stages of water pouring? - because if I would do it in one step,
dry pockets of flour were left and I suspect that they were not getting
much hot at all.
This is also a sourdough religious matter - you need to believe in what
you are doing and what is happening, there is no real proof without a
micro lab trailer in your garden.
'nuff said,
Boron Elgar
I have several cultures bubbling around here and they are distinct in
activity & taste. They are similar enough in age that it cannot
account for the variety. The Sourdough Gods have been good to me.
Thanks for the tips. Scalded flour it is. I think I may try a couple
of Wheat Montanas & a rye in the first round.
I will divide the packet as Dick suggests & see what develops. I am
hoping for some warmer, drier weather to begin the experiments.
Boron
Samartha Deva
> Thanks for the tips. Scalded flour it is. I think I may try a couple
> of Wheat Montanas & a rye in the first round.
I would not do it with rye, though. Growing from a starter powder, that
is. I think white flour is better for that, because it's less active.
Mike Avery
> Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the tips. Scalded flour it is. I think I may try a couple
> > of Wheat Montanas & a rye in the first round.
>
> I would not do it with rye, though. Growing from a starter powder,
> that is. I think white flour is better for that, because it's less
> active.
Now I'm scratching my head. There are probably more micro-organisms on rye flour
than white wheat flour. However, if you pour boiling water on the flour, that shouldn't
still be an issue.
However, the starches in rye flour are more available than those in wheat flour. So, it
might be best to start the decade(s) old Sourdough Jack on sterilized rye instead of
sterilized wheat.
Mike
--
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Boron Elgar
<sdnews-inbox...@samartha.net> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the tips. Scalded flour it is. I think I may try a couple
>> of Wheat Montanas & a rye in the first round.
>
>I would not do it with rye, though. Growing from a starter powder, that
>is. I think white flour is better for that, because it's less active.
>
>Samartha
But this is being done in the name of science!
Hmm...I have some buckwheat flour, too.....
Actually, I will not try them all out at once, as if the first one or
two go nowhere, the experiment will end quickly.
Boron
Boron Elgar
<mav...@mail.otherwhen.com> wrote:
>On 19 Jun 2003 at 5:54, Samartha Deva wrote:
>
>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks for the tips. Scalded flour it is. I think I may try a couple
>> > of Wheat Montanas & a rye in the first round.
>>
>> I would not do it with rye, though. Growing from a starter powder,
>> that is. I think white flour is better for that, because it's less
>> active.
>
>Now I'm scratching my head. There are probably more micro-organisms on rye flour
>than white wheat flour. However, if you pour boiling water on the flour, that shouldn't
>still be an issue.
>
>However, the starches in rye flour are more available than those in wheat flour. So, it
>might be best to start the decade(s) old Sourdough Jack on sterilized rye instead of
>sterilized wheat.
>
>Mike
Gonna try 'em all, if there is enough powder in the packet.
Boron
Dick Adams
"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a3i3fv0btnerdtrjk...@4ax.com...
> Gonna try 'em all, if there is enough powder in the packet.
My experience with scalding flour is that it does not always work.
But branded white flour from a fresh package is quite likely to be
sterile enough. That must be a result of the efficiency of the
industrial mills, which are amazingly large and sophisticated.
In any case, a control experiment (flour {however treated} and
boiled water) is recommended for each flour test.
---
DickA
Phil(NM)
discussed it at length here awhile back. So, you should have no problem.
The SDJ I've found to be a better behaved, better tasting culture than
any of the 3 others that I also maintain.
I used King Arthur Flour to rejuvenate both times. You gotta be patient
tho, it takes a few refreshes in a row to really get the critters back
to strength. And in the beginning it will smell like baby puke. That's
just the culture getting used to being alive again... I think....
anyway, that goes away quickly when it gets back to fully active.
It's the only culture I have that I can pull from the refrig in the AM,
do my refresh and etc and bake that evening with fabulous rises, great
taste, great crumb and great crust. All my other cultures require
overnight.
Dick, didn't I send you a start of this stuff? You ever bake with it
anymore or did the SD gremlins in your house take it over?
Phil(NM)
--
================
Phil(NM)
================
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking." JC Watts
"The Earth is 5.4 Billion years old. It is entirely sustainable without
interference by environmental organizations, laws or treaties."
Samartha Deva
>
> "Boron Elgar" <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a3i3fv0btnerdtrjk...@4ax.com...
>
> > Gonna try 'em all, if there is enough powder in the packet.
>
> My experience with scalding flour is that it does not always work.
>
> But branded white flour from a fresh package is quite likely to be
> sterile enough.
Dick, you bring up the term "sterile" repeatedly with flour. There may
be various degrees of sterility, but flour falling in any of it even
remotely, I don't know.
Lower limit for count of colony building units found in flour is 20,000
per gram.
For me to imagine that there are 20,000 potential organisms in 1/2
teaspoon of flour is a mind blower. The upper number is 6 million.
(that's from the sourdough manual)
But whatever flour type it is you are using, the numbers are going to be
in that range and associating it with the term "sterile" may be going in
the wrong direction. Calling it a more or less potent germ culture would
describe it better.
> That must be a result of the efficiency of the
> industrial mills, which are amazingly large and sophisticated.
There must be US standards for germ counts in flour - the size of mills
won't influence the germs coming from the grain.
Dick Adams
"Phil(NM)" <gol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3EF1D9FB...@yahoo.com...
> Dick, didn't I send you a start of this stuff? You ever bake with it
> anymore or did the SD gremlins in your house take it over?
Well, considering
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DAFC332.8F3F6E57@_spam_yahoo.com
I must've said something about that.
My recollection is that it compared favorably with Carl's and a sample of SDI's
"Russia" I got from a friend.
But, quite frankly, it is the same result I am likely to get from any uninoculated flour-
water paste, in my particular environment. This environment has been conditioned
by a succession of starter cultures which have been handled in the normal, sloppy,
way. If I had had the presence of mind, at that time, to run an uninoculated control,
and record the comparative results, I would be able to tell you more.
---
DickA
Dick Adams
"Samartha Deva" <sdnews-inbox...@samartha.net> wrote in message news:3EF1EF79...@samartha.net...
> > But branded white flour from a fresh package is quite likely to be
> > sterile enough.
> Dick, you bring up the term "sterile" repeatedly with flour. There may
> be various degrees of sterility, but flour falling in any of it even
> remotely, I don't know.
I said *sterile enough*. By me, that is no growth at 85°F. in 5 days,
given that a good start will revive in less than two days.
> Lower limit for count of colony building units found in flour is 20,000
per gram.
You are way ahead of me there. I can not count germs as well as not
measure pH. (Can taste sour/not-sour though, and smell HAc.)
> There must be US standards for germ counts in flour - the size of mills
won't influence the germs coming from the grain.
I'd guess that GM white wheat flour is considerably more sterile than
what may be produced by your local water- or wind-powered miller.
In our particular atmosphere (as compared with that of Mars or Mercury,
for instance), I would hazard that sterility is always relative. But, on the
other hand, and with regard to various other planets, the possibility cannot
be discounted that DNA-containing particles are drifting constantly down
from outer space.
---
DickA
Mike Avery
> I'd guess that GM white wheat flour is considerably more sterile than
> what may be produced by your local water- or wind-powered miller.
I'd suspect that some of the key issues here are the temperature the flour is
raised to during processing and how much bran is removed during processing.
If mostly the interior of the wheat is left and the exterior discarded, then
the parts with the microorganisms just went away.
Also, again and again people are cautioned to not let their flour get above
150F or so during grinding. Given that both yeast and lactocbacillus seem to
expire well below that temperature, a white flour from a high speed mill
should knock the microorganism counts way down compared to a cool process in
a slow stone ground mill with a high extraction rate.
Which gets back to why we encourage people to use whole grain flours,
preferably stone ground, to start a starter.
Mike
Dick Adams
"Mike Avery" <mav...@mail.otherwhen.com> wrote in message news:mailman.27.1056044670....@mail.otherwhen.com...
> [ ... ]
> Which gets back to why we encourage people to use whole grain flours,
preferably stone ground, to start a starter.
When you say "we" you mean you. We encourage people to get a start
from a trusted source, and bring it up on white-flour batter.
Steve B
> measure pH. (Can taste sour/not-sour though, and smell HAc.)
Presumably, you can smell acetic acid (HOAc) as well as acetaldehyde (HAc).
- Steve Brandt
Dick Adams
"Steve B" <steve...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:VLoIa.75010$YZ2.245622@rwcrnsc53...
> Presumably, you can smell acetic acid (HOAc) as well as acetaldehyde (HAc).
You're going to get me, ain't ya, Stevie?
---
Dickey
Steve B
Nah, just a stickler for detail.
- Stevie
Dick Adams
"Steve B" <steve...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:%AqIa.722953$Si4.8...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> Nah, just a stickler for detail.
Well, you see, Stevie, it depends on what the meaning of "Ac" is --
(to nearly quote the legendary semanticist).
"HAc" is good slang for acetic acid. Google <HAc> AND <acid>.
Think big! Detail will not get you ahead.
---
Dickey
Samartha Deva
> But this is being done in the name of science!
>
Ah - then all is permissible, go for sawdust, peatmoss and facepowder (I
mean the one mostly used by females).
Steve B
It may be good slang but it is incorrect usage. Organic chemists worldwide
have been using HOAc as an abbreviation for acetic acid long before Google
was a gleam in some Gen Xer's eye (just look at any issue of J. Amer. Chem.
Soc. or J. Med. Chem.). After all, Google is merely a search engine, not in
itself an information source. There is plenty of information turned up by
Google that is just plain incorrect.
> Think big! Detail will not get you ahead.
I like to think of myself as thinking big but not at the expense of ignoring
the detail.
- Stevie
Dick Adams
"Steve B" <steve...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:eDrIa.44682$sm5....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> ... ( ...just look at any issue of J. Amer. Chem. Soc. or J. Med. Chem.) ...
I guess they have all gone reading at their special libraries.
> ... There is plenty of information turned up by Google that is just plain
incorrect ...
You got that right -- never, since the invention of the printing press, has
anything else come along so useful for the proliferation of alphanumeric
misinformation.
---
DickA