Copper Jam Pans
Kyle W. Harris
to be used in making jam. I am wondering if anyone here has had any
experience with these - - are they safe? I thought that unlined copper
reacted with acidic foods (which fruit jam certainly would be!).
Thanks!
sue harris
Eric Decker
wrote:
Us ONLY non-reactive gear for any and all food preserving. Copper is highly
active.
Michael Barnette
--
Michael Barnette
remove "nospam" to reply
Kyle W. Harris wrote in message <370E1C40...@uswest.net>...
Kyle W. Harris
often use far less sugar than recipes call for. Maybe I'd be safer just
staying the heck away from those extremely beautiful and tempting pans!
Shoot.
sue harris
Eric Decker
<michael-san@world"nospam"net.att.net> wrote:
>>There're safe due to the high sugar content of the jams.
Hogwash.
The acid which reacts with the copper is not less due to the presence of sugar.
Not even if you use 3kg of sugar to 1 kg of fruit. Metal poisoning is no joke.
Metals accumulate in the body.
Use non-reactive vessels only.
Sue Flesch
<michael-san@world"nospam"net.att.net> wrote:
>There're safe due to the high sugar content of the jams.
I would not say that in this group where so many recipes rely on large
amounts of pectin for setting after the usual quantity of sugar has
been substainially reduced because of the supposed undesiredness of
an over sweet product.
S
Michael Barnette
>I always thought copper MUST be tinned (led, cadmium and antimony free)
before
>it could be used for ANY food, liquid or solid.
I quote from The Williams Sonoma Cookbook and Guide to Kitchenware
"Unlined Copper Preserving Pan-Also known as confiture pans, these wide ,
low, capacious pans have double handles to help lift them when they are
full. They are unlined because of the high sugar content in jams and
jellies. Copper is such a good conductor of heat that it cooks preserves
rapidly and evenly, helping to retain the fresh taste and bright color.
These pans can be used for making sugar candies as well as preserves, but
should not be used for other cooking purposes." pg. 16-17.
I've made all my preserves for the past ten years in one I bought at Pier
One for $20. on final super blue light special. Got a Peugeot 12 or 14 inch
pepper grinder for $5 at the same sale.
mb
Michael Barnette
>Use non-reactive vessels only.
Horse hockey.
mb
Kyle W. Harris
OK, the part about heating quickly and evenly to preserve the fresh
taste makes sense. But again, I ask - - just how MUCH sugar content do
you need to make it safe? I am very curious about this - - sounds like
the copper pan would be a good idea if it's safe (as I said before, I
generally use much less sugar), because often in making preserves in my
Le Creuset, by the time it's done, it can taste pretty "boiled".
Thanks a lot for the discussion on this!
sue harris
Michael Barnette
and 1/2. Got about forty cookbooks out now trying to find an article that
defines the parameters of using an unlined copper pan. More to follow.
--
Michael Barnette
remove "nospam" to reply
Kyle W. Harris wrote in message <370FEB3D...@uswest.net>...
Eric Decker
>>>I always thought copper MUST be tinned (led, cadmium and antimony free)
>>>before it could be used for ANY food, liquid or solid.
Yup. I can't remember the last time I saw an un-tinned copper pot for sale.
A few years back I had copper cooking pots that eventually lost their lining in
tiny spots... I gave them the heave ho just about the same time my spuds took on
a greenish hue ... not long at all. Cupric sulfate is not a harbinger of good
health.
Anyone using an unlined copper pot is a few bricks short of a full load.
>>Copper pans for sugar-work or jam are not tinned because the melting point of
>>the tin is lower than that of the sugar -- even just from an aesthetic point of
>>view, sugar full of tin isn't an appealing idea. :-)
Stainless steel has long since replaced all copper in commercial sugar works.
Enameled steel is said to be the best of all for sugar work. Unfortunately it
is high upkeep in larger sizes ... SS wins at the bean counter level.
Noramunro
>
>>>>I always thought copper MUST be tinned (led, cadmium and antimony free)
>>>>before it could be used for ANY food, liquid or solid.
Um, Eric, not to be a pest, but be careful about this ... *I* didn't write that
... Arno (whom I quoted) did. I wrote the bit (quoted below) about the melting
point of tin.
>>>Copper pans for sugar-work or jam are not tinned because the melting point
>of
>>>the tin is lower than that of the sugar -- even just from an aesthetic
>point of
>>>view, sugar full of tin isn't an appealing idea. :-)
Stephanie
who does no sugar work and uses enameled pots for preference anyway.
Eric Decker
wrote:
>>OK, the part about heating quickly and evenly to preserve the fresh
>>taste makes sense. But again, I ask - - just how MUCH sugar content do
>>you need to make it safe?
No amount of sugar will offset the fruit acid and copper reaction. You can add
sugar to the point it will give your dentist instant retirement but the
acid-copper reaction will still occur but will be undectable because of the
excess sugar load.
Pay no attention to idiots who spout claptrap that is contra common sense and
every authority on canning.
Putting Food By and Ball Blue Book are the references that can be trusted.
Eric Decker
>>I always thought copper MUST be tinned (led, cadmium and antimony free) before
>>it could be used for ANY food, liquid or solid.
Indeed.
Do you think oatmeal is acidic? Many times I have spilled some over the
outside side of a lined copper pot - nearly instantly the metal reacts. The
cupric oxide film is taken up by the oatmeal leaving a bright shiny spot that
will oxidize to brownish red.
Definitive information:
"Copper About 1/10 gram of this element is incorporated into the body, with
the highest concentrations in the liver and brain. It plays a role in the
formation of hemoglobin and of phospholids, an is also involved in bone
development and energy production. Organ meats, shellfish, grains, and most
other seeds are good sources. Dietary deficiency of copper is rare, and
3excessive intake can cause damage to the liver, kidney, and brain. For this
reason, and because copper metal readily reacts with many foods, the use of
unlined copper utensils in not recommended." - Harold McGee, On Food and
Cooking.
Consider that canned foods may be eaten by persons on medication. This presents
a great potential for unwanted, unknown and possibly very dangerous side
effects.
Certainly a copper load uptaken by a child from food prepared in an un-lined
copper pot would be more toxic than the same amount to an adult. No doubt the
symptoms in that child would be never be seen as copper poisoning but would be
called colic, stubborn or something else. In the middle aged and older adult the
degeneration from accumulation of copper would be seen as aging, the effects of
having lived life of consumption or simple dementia.
Live long, live well.
Sammy's huwummun
*highly* respect your knowledge and professionalism on any & all
topics presented on rfp. Howsomever, my ? is : WHY does Falk, which
is a very reputable company 1) produce this marmalad pan & 2) say it
is safe????? I really don't think they would do this for purely
commercial reasons; after all, at the most cynical [which I am good
at!! :)], they could charge MORE for the lined pan...... I hope I
haven't muddied my comment by too many paranthetical comments!!
Judy
to e-mail me: jco...@mindspring.com
Zxcvbob
been used for centuries. The mash and the "wort" (unfermented beer) is highly
acidic and does not really contain much sugar.
An unlined copper bowl is the *best* container in which to beat egg whites.
I have read in a highly regarded book on brewing that alkaline foods actually
pose a threat of leaching toxic quantities of copper. I have even quoted this
here. But now giving it some thought, I realize that this is ridiculous
because almost all drinking water is alkaline and copper pipes are regarded as
safe for drinking water by the NSF and everybody else.
I think we have some conventional wisdom (toxicity of metals) and we are trying
to guess at the reason the jam cookers don't fit our notions. BTW, toxicity
varies greatly by species, so the fact that copper is extremely toxic to
aquatic life is not particularly relevant.
Look up the toxicity of iron sometimes. It will scare the dickens out of you.
But the use of unlined iron pots and pans used to be a major source of dietary
iron.
I haven't proven any points here, I just wanted to stir up some trouble ;-) and
maybe get some people to think. I would consider the copper jam cookers to be
reasonbly safe just by example from the beer cookers. How much jam does a
person eats in a year anyway (compared with the amount of beer consumed by some
of us)?
best regards,
bob (who doesn't use unlined aluminum cookware)
Eric Decker
wrote:
>>Eric, I don't have any reason to doubt what you are saying + I
>>*highly* respect your knowledge and professionalism on any & all
>>topics presented on rfp. Howsomever, my ? is : WHY does Falk, which
>>is a very reputable company 1) produce this marmalad pan & 2) say it
>>is safe?????
Ask them. Ask tobacco companies why they say their products are safe.
Municipalities claim their drinking water is safe yet it is unfit for most
commercial processes.
There once was a car that was claimed to be safe despite its annoying tendency
to burst into flames in even minor impact. It was eventually withdrawn from
manufacture and sale.
>>I really don't think they would do this for purely
>>commercial reasons; after all, at the most cynical [which I am good
In 1753 Sweden outlawed the used of copper ( unlined is meant) cooking pots in
its armed service. In the early 19Th century Britain issued health warnings of
the health hazards posed by pickles, beer, bakery products and candies that had
been prepared in copper vessels.
Yes, you would need to ingest a fair bit of copper for it to kill you. However
little is known of the effects of low levels of copper. We know it attacks the
liver and brain. How much of aberrant behaviour in a person is due to low level
metal poisoning? We don't know.
All jams by definition have acid. It WILL react with a copper vessel regardless
of how much sugar is added. Little is known of the amount of copper a given jam
will take up - some jams are decidedly acid and will carry a heavy load of
copper. Copper is such a bad idea ( interior decorators love copper pots ) in
the food world that Corning created a whole line of products that have been
enormously well received by consumers and profited greatly from them too.
Reputable canning authorities have been saying for nigh on sixty years "use
non-reactive vessels only". We who preserve food have an enormous
responsibility to make our products safe - safe to be consumed by ANYone :
beneficial and healing to all - toxic to none.
Eric Decker
>>Unlined copper is the traditional material for the boiler in brewing, and has
>>been used for centuries. The mash and the "wort" (unfermented beer) is highly
>>acidic and does not really contain much sugar.
Replaced by stainless steel these days.
>>An unlined copper bowl is the *best* container in which to beat egg whites.
Food processor does it at the flick of a button - no copper.
>>I have read in a highly regarded book on brewing that alkaline foods actually
>>pose a threat of leaching toxic quantities of copper. I have even quoted this
>>here. But now giving it some thought, I realize that this is ridiculous
>>because almost all drinking water is alkaline and copper pipes are regarded as
>>safe for drinking water by the NSF and everybody else.
Acid is the problem not alkalies. Fruit and Jam contain acid.
>>I think we have some conventional wisdom (toxicity of metals) and we are trying
Harold McGee, Putting Food By and other reputable sources are good enough for
me.
Eric
Melba's Jammin'
I was talking to Marilyn Herman, my county extension Home Economist and
Educator this morning and asked her about the unlined copper jam pans.
She gave me a resounding and clear NO. They should not be used.
According to her, it's a matter of heat causing the leaching (or whatever
the bad effect is) -- yup, copper bowl is great for whipping egg whites
(as you mention below); yup, they're fine for cold molded things. ***But
don't cook in them.*** I'll abide by her remarks. She said I could use
her name. :-)
-Barb
In article <19990411231641...@ng-cr1.aol.com>, zxc...@aol.com
(Zxcvbob) wrote:
>Unlined copper is the traditional material for the boiler in brewing, and has
>been used for centuries. The mash and the "wort" (unfermented beer) is highly
>acidic and does not really contain much sugar.
>
>An unlined copper bowl is the *best* container in which to beat egg whites.
>
>I have read in a highly regarded book on brewing that alkaline foods actually
>pose a threat of leaching toxic quantities of copper. I have even quoted this
>here. But now giving it some thought, I realize that this is ridiculous
>because almost all drinking water is alkaline and copper pipes are regarded as
>safe for drinking water by the NSF and everybody else.
>
>I think we have some conventional wisdom (toxicity of metals) and we are trying
>to guess at the reason the jam cookers don't fit our notions. BTW, toxicity
>varies greatly by species, so the fact that copper is extremely toxic to
>aquatic life is not particularly relevant.
>
>Look up the toxicity of iron sometimes. It will scare the dickens out of you.
>But the use of unlined iron pots and pans used to be a major source of dietary
>iron.
>
>I haven't proven any points here, I just wanted to stir up some trouble ;-) and
>maybe get some people to think. I would consider the copper jam cookers to be
>reasonbly safe just by example from the beer cookers. How much jam does a
>person eats in a year anyway (compared with the amount of beer consumed by some
>of us)?
>
>best regards,
>bob (who doesn't use unlined aluminum cookware)
--
Zxcvbob
With all the quotations at the bottom, this is gonna be kind of long. My
apologies to the newsgroup.
An county extention agent would just about be obligated to say "no" to anything
contraversial to make sure she erred on the side of safety wouldn't she? It
would be an unnecessary liability risk to otherwise. Especially since she is
giving "expert" advice. It's not a bad policy.
Heat does influence the reaction between the metal and food, but I don't know
which way the equilibrium shifts. Calcium ions become *less* soluble as the
temperature increases.
It is an almost moot point for me, because the only unlined copper cookware I
have is a chiller that I use when I make beer (which, alas, I do very
infrequently) It is only in contact with the wort for a short period when I am
cooling it from boiling to lukewarm. I use glass or stainless steel for
everything else.
Overall, it is a very complicated issue that one must decide for himself. I
think the long history of copper's use in the brewing industry is sufficient
evidence of its safety with long-cooking acid foods to regard it as safe for
occasional use in preparing foods that are used in moderation. The FDA
sometimes uses this criteria for classifying ancient drugs like asperin as
"Generally Regarded As Safe". But I wouldn't cook spaghetti sauce in a copper
pot every day, nor store lemonade in a copper pitcher. A little common sense
(and respect for the complexity of it all) is always in order.
Thanks for writing.
best regards,
bob
Eric Decker
Jammin') wrote:
>>Bob,
>>I was talking to Marilyn Herman, my county extension Home Economist and
>>Educator this morning and asked her about the unlined copper jam pans.
>>She gave me a resounding and clear NO. They should not be used.
>>According to her, it's a matter of heat causing the leaching (or whatever
>>the bad effect is)
_strictly_ speaking it is not the heat that is the culprit. Heat is an
accelerator of a chemical reaction. Heating copper by itself does nothing.
Copper is a very active element. It is the acid in food which starts the
chemical reaction with copper. The by products being the part which contaminates
food. Same in beer making. Beer is weakly acid and attacks copper. When used
as a chiller the rate is slowed but is not stopped.
Apply heat to any acid reduction reaction and the rate of activity is greatly
increased. e.g. Acid flux for soldering copper water pipes does very little
till the heat is applied. One the acid is hot it is very corrosive.
Summary:
Copper is safe for any non-acid food. The problem is there isn't many foods
which do not have some acid. Most foods have enough acid to attack copper and
when that food is hot it will do so most readily. Oatmeal is as non-acid as it
gets yet it will attack copper when the oatmeal is hot.
Your Home Ec is right about a clear and resounding no.
Blanche Nonken
> Yup. I can't remember the last time I saw an un-tinned copper pot for sale.
> A few years back I had copper cooking pots that eventually lost their lining in
> tiny spots... I gave them the heave ho just about the same time my spuds took on
> a greenish hue ... not long at all. Cupric sulfate is not a harbinger of good
> health.
You can get them re-tinned. I forget the details, exactly, but
if you buy them at a place like Fante's, they should know where
to go for safe food-quality retinning.
Blanche Nonken
> >>An unlined copper bowl is the *best* container in which to beat egg whites.
>
> Food processor does it at the flick of a button - no copper.
Egg whites are neutral/alkaline. They're even recommended in
some cases of chemical poisoning. I would trust eggwhite in a
copper bowl, but not anything else.
Food processors are poor beaters of egg whites. A mixer, or
whisk and bowl, are best. For just an egg or two, I use a bowl
and whisk, and a tiny pinch of cream of tartar. It's a trade-off
between the time beating, and the time cleaning.
Melba's Jammin'
(Zxcvbob) wrote:
>>Bob,
>>I was talking to Marilyn Herman, my county extension Home Economist and
>>Educator this morning and asked her about the unlined copper jam pans.
>>She gave me a resounding and clear NO. They should not be used.
>>According to her, it's a matter of heat causing the leaching (or whatever
>>the bad effect is) -- yup, copper bowl is great for whipping egg whites
>>(as you mention below); yup, they're fine for cold molded things. ***But
>>don't cook in them.*** I'll abide by her remarks. She said I could use
>>her name. :-)
>>-Barb
(original stuff snipped for brevity)
"You pays your money and you takes your choice." I won't argue with you;
I have a pretty fair history here, I think, of being a proponent of
conservative preserving methods. I'd rather err on the side of safety.
I'll pass on the unlined copper, thanks.
(And hoist a cold one for me, eh?!) -Barb
--
Melba's Jammin'
er...@nospam.getcomputing.com (Eric Decker) wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:33:14 -0500, Schall...@htc.honeywell.com (Melba's
>Jammin') wrote:
>
>>>Bob,
>>>I was talking to Marilyn Herman, my county extension Home Economist and
>>>Educator this morning and asked her about the unlined copper jam pans.
>>>She gave me a resounding and clear NO. They should not be used.
>>>According to her, it's a matter of heat causing the leaching (or whatever
>>>the bad effect is)
(deleted)
>Summary:
>
>Copper is safe for any non-acid food. The problem is there isn't many foods
>which do not have some acid. Most foods have enough acid to attack copper and
>when that food is hot it will do so most readily. Oatmeal is as non-acid as it
>gets yet it will attack copper when the oatmeal is hot.
>
>Your Home Ec is right about a clear and resounding no.
I'll be sure and tell her you approve.
--
Michael Barnett
never used one. Use one and you would understand the reluctance of giving
it up. Instant temperature response, residence time that is almost
insignificant and a resulting product that is incredible. As the great
"poet" Redd Foxx once said "You're gonna fell like a damn fool dying of
nothing".
I drink too much (wine, beer and scotch), eat too much fat, love pork ribs,
eat Japanese O'Toro every chance I get, don't get enough sleep, smoked
illegal substances during my formative years, eat cured meats (compared to
the amount of jams and jellies I eat this is much more of a worry), drive a
two door six cylinder BMW at triple digit speeds at least once per week and
fly almost 200,000 miles per year. These things worry me, but not too much.
I run 20 miles per week, weigh the same I did my senior year in college,
have all my hair, have fathered two beautiful children, own my own business,
have been married to the same woman for fifteen years and my Mother who used
one of these accursed unlined pots is eighty four. My Grandmother made it
to 104 and she had one. It may have been what killed her but eighty years
of eating product prepared in one is what it took to do it.
An unlined copper pan is not the least of my worries but so far I'm not
convinced enough to stop using it or conditionally recommending to others.
Well now that ought to start this whole thing back up again.
mb
Sue Flesch
<micha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
snip
Sounds like the only person you are trying to convince is yourself:-)
S
Michael Barnette
you're set.
--
Michael Barnette
remove "nospam" to reply
Stephanie da Silva wrote in message <7f5a2v$b...@bonkers.taronga.com>...
>In article <7f3if4$3qj$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
>Michael Barnett <micha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>I drink too much (wine, beer and scotch), eat too much fat, love pork
ribs,
>>eat Japanese O'Toro every chance I get, don't get enough sleep, smoked
>
>I wish I knew where you found toro. I've never seen it.
>