OT..(slightly) ... home repairs
Dave Smith
plumbing repairs would be a lot faster if I had some training in the
field and all the proper tools. I just finished installing s new set of
taps in my downstairs bathroom. What I thought would take an hour at
the most has taken me the best of a a day altogether. But the job is
done and I didn't have to pay a plumber.
First of all, the old taps were an antique brass finish with matching
drain. I looked high and low for a similar material but had no luck so I
got a brushed stainless which I thought would look nice. Installation
was delayed while I took my wife to all the local suppliers to convince
her that no such thing is available. She decided that the one I got was
probably the best choice. That was one bridge crossed, but I lost
momentum on that job while I got involved in some other projects.
I finally got started on Monday around noon. It should have taken only a
few minutes to get the old taps off. The water supply lines came off
easy enough, but it took a lot longer to get the faucet off because the
old hold down bolts were badly rusted.The finally snapped off and I got
them out, cleaned up the mess from the old putty and stuff and was all
set to install the new set. Low and behold, they did not come with any
sort of supply line, unlike all previous bathroom taps I had installed.
I had to run down to the hardware store in town and got two new lines,
came home and installed them. They worked fine.
Now I was faced with removing the old drain. I was hoping to avoid that,
but the new taps just didn't look right with the old drain. It should
have been easy enough to remove the old drain but the threads on the old
fittings were also rust covered and would not come off. I soaked them
with WD40 and let it sit.... for a day and a half.
I got back to it this morning. The securing nut came off easy enough.
but the old threads on the drain would not turn off. I ended up having
to carefully drill a line of holes through the flashing all the way
around and then pry them up.... very carefully so as not to chip the
bone sink. That took about an hour and a half.
Meanwhile, the old trap and drain pipe was shot. One of the unions on
the old chrome trap set snapped, so back to the hardware store with the
old parts and a drawing with the measurements. The hardware store in
town did not have an 1-1/4 drain and trap like the old one, nor did they
have the parts to convert a 1-1/2 set. I had to drive to the hardware
store in the next town, where they were very helpful. Very, very
helpful. In a matter of minutes he got me the trap, reducers, unions and
compression fittings, some PCV cement and threw in a couple feet of PCV
pipe. The total cost was only $12.
I got at it as soon as I got home, measured off the pipe I needed, glued
the pieces that needed gluing and then went in and stuck it all together
in a matter of minutes.
I am sure that a plumber could have done it in a fraction of the time,
but since they charge so much for house calls and outrageous hourly
rates along with marked up prices for parts, it would have cost a
bundle. I spent a total of $32 on supply lines and today's parts. I
saved a lot of money and now I have the satisfaction of a job well
done... and a few scraped knuckles.
Wayne Boatwright
>
> It's a good thing I don't earn my living as a plumber. I suppose
> plumbing repairs would be a lot faster if I had some training in the
> field and all the proper tools. I just finished installing s new set of
> taps in my downstairs bathroom. What I thought would take an hour at
> the most has taken me the best of a a day altogether. But the job is
> done and I didn't have to pay a plumber.
Good job, Dave! Even with all the right tools (I think I have all that are
necessary), it can be an arduous task. Plumbers often tend to have the odd
bits on hand, so they don't have to go running around to find them like you
did. I would have been in the same boat.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
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Chris Marksberry
"Wayne Boatwright" >> It's a good thing I don't earn my living as a plumber.
>> plumbing repairs would be a lot faster if I had some training in the
>> field and all the proper tools. I just finished installing s new set of
>> taps in my downstairs bathroom. What I thought would take an hour at
>> the most has taken me the best of a a day altogether. But the job is
>> done and I didn't have to pay a plumber.
>
> Good job, Dave! Even with all the right tools (I think I have all that
> are
> necessary), it can be an arduous task. Plumbers often tend to have the
> odd
> bits on hand, so they don't have to go running around to find them like
> you
> did. I would have been in the same boat.
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright
Kudos to Dave,
Years ago my husband replaced something in one of our upstairs toilets and
didn't get something tight enough. I fell asleep that night on the couch
watching TV. In the middle of the night my husband heard water running and
wondered why I was taking a shower. I wasn't! He discovered our bathroom
flooded and walked downstairs (squish, squish, squish through the wet
carpet). His plumbing job did a lot of damage. To this day we tell people
who would like new carpet to use my husband's plumbing services <g>.
Homeowner's Insurance does cover ineptness.
Chris
Sheldon
See what happens when you spread the wealth around instead of calling
Joe the plumber...
What a coincidence, I had a bathroom vanity faucet replaced just
yesterday. The old Delta faucet was dripping, again... after changing
the parts like six times even though they are free forever I got tired
of it (don't ever buy Delta). I ordered a Koehler from Amazon a few
months ago (good price - $127 - and free shipping) but just never got
around to calling a plumber, but finally I did. Yesterday the plumber
arrived at 12:20 PM, removed the old, installed the new, and departed
at 1:15 PM. The damage came to $78. I learned a long time ago to
never again attempt these what appear to be simple plumbing repairs.
The only work I did was to empty the vanity before he arrived and put
things back afterwards, he made no mess that I couldn't wipe up with a
few paper towels and a few spritzes of windex. Live and learn.
This one I had installed five years ago in a different sink, a Koehler
"Never Drip":
http://i37.tinypic.com/1498qc8.jpg
Here's the one I had installed yesterday, this one has brass trim to
match the bathroom hardware:
http://i38.tinypic.com/1ex9p4.jpg
Sky
>
> Kudos to Dave,
>
> Years ago my husband replaced something in one of our upstairs toilets and
> didn't get something tight enough. I fell asleep that night on the couch
> watching TV. In the middle of the night my husband heard water running and
> wondered why I was taking a shower. I wasn't! He discovered our bathroom
> flooded and walked downstairs (squish, squish, squish through the wet
> carpet). His plumbing job did a lot of damage. To this day we tell people
> who would like new carpet to use my husband's plumbing services <g>.
> Homeowner's Insurance does cover ineptness.
>
> Chris
But that's the really tough way to get a new carpet (or remodel job!)!
Believe me, I learned the hard way too, although it wasn't due to any
plumbing replacement - t'was a faulty washing machine that kept filling,
filling, filling, and more filling! Moral of the story is, never be
away from home when any major appliance is in use including a
dishwasher, except fridge or freezer, furnace or A/C. Thing is, spouse
and I _were_ home what that disaster happened!!!! Amazing what damage
some water can cause.
Sky, who hates remodeling but did get new flooring, carpet and more
P.S. I ditto the "kudos to Dave" ;D
--
Ultra Ultimate Kitchen Rule - Use the Timer!
Ultimate Kitchen Rule -- Cook's Choice
Mark Thorson
>
> What a coincidence, I had a bathroom vanity faucet replaced just
> yesterday. The old Delta faucet was dripping, again... after changing
> the parts like six times even though they are free forever I got tired
> of it (don't ever buy Delta). I ordered a Koehler from Amazon a few
> months ago (good price - $127 - and free shipping) but just never got
> around to calling a plumber, but finally I did. Yesterday the plumber
> arrived at 12:20 PM, removed the old, installed the new, and departed
> at 1:15 PM. The damage came to $78. I learned a long time ago to
> never again attempt these what appear to be simple plumbing repairs.
Kohler, I presume. Well known for over 50 years
as a supplier of quality products. In what country
was your fixture made?
Wayne Boatwright
> But that's the really tough way to get a new carpet (or remodel job!)!
> Believe me, I learned the hard way too, although it wasn't due to any
> plumbing replacement - t'was a faulty washing machine that kept filling,
> filling, filling, and more filling! Moral of the story is, never be
> away from home when any major appliance is in use including a
> dishwasher, except fridge or freezer, furnace or A/C. Thing is, spouse
> and I _were_ home what that disaster happened!!!! Amazing what damage
> some water can cause.
>
> Sky, who hates remodeling but did get new flooring, carpet and more
>
> P.S. I ditto the "kudos to Dave" ;D
>
We had a very similar experience, Sky. At the time we lived in a 1-story
ranch style home with a utility room that contained the washer, dryer,
utility sink, hot water heater, and furnace.
One Chistmas Eve afternoon I put in a load of laundry. It was somewhere
mid-cycle when we decided to grab a quick bite of food about a mile from
home. While at the restaurant we ran into friends who insisted that we
come back with them to see their Christmas tree and decorations.
When we finally arrived home and stepped in from the attached garage, the
carpet was saturated from there to the other end of the house. Water had
also wicked up into the drywall in several rooms, and hardwood flooring in
other areas was also saturated.
It was caused by the same problem you had. The solenoid valve controlled
by the fill cycle stuck open and it just never quit filling up.
Thank God for insurance, but what a miserable Christmas! It took nearly
six months of renovation to complete erase all traces of the damage.
Now our washer sits in a drainage pan which drains to the sewer, and it
also contains a water sensor which turns off the main supply line to the
washer. We have a similar sensor and turn off for the dishwasher. I don't
want to live through that hell again.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
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Mark Thorson
>
> Now our washer sits in a drainage pan which drains to the sewer, and it
> also contains a water sensor which turns off the main supply line to the
> washer. We have a similar sensor and turn off for the dishwasher. I don't
> want to live through that hell again.
A few years ago, radio commentator Paul Harvey disappeared
for a few days while others substituted for him on his radio
show. When he reappeared, he explained that he had a second
house, and the water line to the automatic ice maker in the
refrigerator broke, causing tens of thousands of dollars
worth of damage while the house was unoccupied. These lines
can be rubber or all-metal. He recommended choosing all-metal.
Wayne Boatwright
It's a smart recommendation. Ours is somewhat flexible copper with metal
compression fittings. Very unlikely to leak. Many refrigerators with ice
makers come with some sort of plastic or nylon tubing which can certainly
rupture or leak at the fitting.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
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Dave Smith
>
> What a coincidence, I had a bathroom vanity faucet replaced just
> yesterday. The old Delta faucet was dripping, again... after changing
> the parts like six times even though they are free forever I got tired
> of it (don't ever buy Delta). I ordered a Koehler from Amazon a few
> months ago (good price - $127 - and free shipping) but just never got
> around to calling a plumber, but finally I did. Yesterday the plumber
> arrived at 12:20 PM, removed the old, installed the new, and departed
> at 1:15 PM. The damage came to $78. I learned a long time ago to
> never again attempt these what appear to be simple plumbing repairs.
> The only work I did was to empty the vanity before he arrived and put
> things back afterwards, he made no mess that I couldn't wipe up with a
> few paper towels and a few spritzes of windex. Live and learn.
Plumbers around here charge more than that just for the house call.
Labour for the installation is on top of that.
About 25 years ago I remodelled my kitchen and called a plumber to
install the sink. They were going to charge me $250 to cut the hole in
the counter and connect the taps and drains. That seemed like a lot. At
that time it cost me a fraction of that for the sink, taps and drain. I
borrowed a sabre saw from work and did it myself in less than two hours.
Dave Smith
> A few years ago, radio commentator Paul Harvey disappeared
> for a few days while others substituted for him on his radio
> show. When he reappeared, he explained that he had a second
> house, and the water line to the automatic ice maker in the
> refrigerator broke, causing tens of thousands of dollars
> worth of damage while the house was unoccupied. These lines
> can be rubber or all-metal. He recommended choosing all-metal.
Back in 1982 we met some people who were in the area this area for a
year on a job share and were headed back to the west coast. They invited
us to visit them but were stopping to visit family on the way and
would meet us at their house. We got there a few days ahead of them and
had a rude surprise the plastic supply line to their toilet had a
hairline crack that had been spraying water for a week or more before we
got there. I replaced the line with a metal one for a few dollars. The
small savings on the plastic line hardly made up for the damage done to
the ceilings below.
Mark Thorson
>
> It's a smart recommendation. Ours is somewhat flexible copper with
> metal compression fittings. Very unlikely to leak. Many refrigerators
> with ice makers come with some sort of plastic or nylon tubing
> which can certainly rupture or leak at the fitting.
I had a plastic line (with outer reinforcing metal braid)
to my toilet, and it leaked because the line was twisted
when it was installed. The combination of the twist and
the water pressure eventually broke the line. It's important
that flexible lines of this type are installed with no twist
at all.
George Shirley
> On Wed 22 Oct 2008 03:44:46p, Mark Thorson told us...
>
>> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>> Now our washer sits in a drainage pan which drains to the sewer, and it
>>> also contains a water sensor which turns off the main supply line to
>>> the washer. We have a similar sensor and turn off for the dishwasher.
>>> I don't want to live through that hell again.
>> A few years ago, radio commentator Paul Harvey disappeared
>> for a few days while others substituted for him on his radio
>> show. When he reappeared, he explained that he had a second
>> house, and the water line to the automatic ice maker in the
>> refrigerator broke, causing tens of thousands of dollars
>> worth of damage while the house was unoccupied. These lines
>> can be rubber or all-metal. He recommended choosing all-metal.
>>
>
> It's a smart recommendation. Ours is somewhat flexible copper with metal
> compression fittings. Very unlikely to leak. Many refrigerators with ice
> makers come with some sort of plastic or nylon tubing which can certainly
> rupture or leak at the fitting.
>
diameter lab grade Tygon tubing, that was about fifteen years ago. The
Tygon tubing is still flexible and working fine. Copper tubing would not
work where the fridge is, cabinets and such get in the way of a direct line.
I've never, in 48 years of marriage, had a washer fail but have had a
water heater fail and flood the garage. We have gas stove, gas furnace,
and a gas water heater. Heating with electricity is not a cheap way to
heat a house, even though you need the juice to run the gas furnace fan.
Wayne Boatwright
> I've never, in 48 years of marriage, had a washer fail but have had a
> water heater fail and flood the garage. We have gas stove, gas furnace,
> and a gas water heater. Heating with electricity is not a cheap way to
> heat a house, even though you need the juice to run the gas furnace fan.
We have an all electric home and I pefer electric cooking. Living in the
AZ desert, we actually have a very low electric bill during the months when
we require heat, as the furnace runs very little. The situations are very
subjective.
When we still lived in Ohio we also had an all electric home and a high
efficiency heat pump. It cost us less per year for combined utilities than
in the previous house where we had a gas furnace and gas water heater.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
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Cheryl
news:Xns9B3FA070C52D2wa...@69.16.185.250...
>
> It's a smart recommendation. Ours is somewhat flexible copper with metal
> compression fittings. Very unlikely to leak. Many refrigerators with ice
> makers come with some sort of plastic or nylon tubing which can certainly
> rupture or leak at the fitting.
When I first bought my house I traded the existing refrigerator/freezer with
the seller, my brother. He wanted to keep his old one as it was bigger than
the brand new one in the house he bought. He installed the new one in my
house and it had the nylon or some other clear plastic tubing for the ice
maker, and it sprung a leak within days. He went to the hardware store and
got the flexible copper, replaced it for me, and that was 8 years ago and
never a leak.
Dave Smith
> On Wed 22 Oct 2008 03:18:56p, Sky told us...
>
> ranch style home with a utility room that contained the washer, dryer,
> utility sink, hot water heater, and furnace.
>
> One Chistmas Eve afternoon I put in a load of laundry. It was somewhere
> mid-cycle when we decided to grab a quick bite of food about a mile from
> home. While at the restaurant we ran into friends who insisted that we
> come back with them to see their Christmas tree and decorations.
>
> When we finally arrived home and stepped in from the attached garage, the
> carpet was saturated from there to the other end of the house. Water had
> also wicked up into the drywall in several rooms, and hardwood flooring in
> other areas was also saturated.
>
> It was caused by the same problem you had. The solenoid valve controlled
> by the fill cycle stuck open and it just never quit filling up.
I was lucky when it happened to with our washer about 6 months ago. We
were home at the time and caught it just as it started to overflow. I
shut off immediately and then put it to the spin cycle to drain the
water, unloaded the laundry and went into town to my friend's appliance
store. The machine was old enough that it was not worth repairing and we
had been unhappy with laundry results for awhile. I picked out a new
front loader and had it delivered within an hour.
Sheldon
Even 25 years ago cutting the hole in your counter top and installing
a kitchen sink, faucet, and connecting the supply and waste lines for
$250 was a bargain... because I don't believe that job can be done in
two hours, more like four. Even without cutting the hole installling
a kitchen sink takes more than two hours.
Plumbers here give free estimates. But mine wasn't an estimate kind
of job, it was a basic swap and switch. When I explained the job over
the phone I was quoted an hour's labor plus parts but since I supplied
the faucet there were no parts. Mine was literally a passing by my
house between jobs job, a lunch break job.
The job you decribed above required cutting into your counter top,
those kind of jobs are always costly because whoever does that cutting
is taking a big risk. Normally whoever supplies the counter top cuts
in sink holes. Plumbers don't cut sink holes into counter tops, they
usually refuse those jobs, or they'll quote a price that more than
covers buying a whole new counter top, really hoping you'll say it's
too much and send them packing... tradesmen don't like to take jobs
out of their classification, they know if they screw up they have to
eat it. Instead they feed each other, the plumber will feed cabinetry
jobs to his pal who does carpentry/finishing work and in turn will get
fed plumbing jobs. All the various tradesmen know each other and so
don't want to mooch other's work, and if they screw up they become a
big laughing stock and the butt of jokes that will follow them way
past retirement.
I'll tackle certain small plumbing jobs like repair a leaky faucet by
installing a new cartridge but if the job requires that I need to buy
specialized tools and make multiple runs to the hardware store for
various fittings and such then I reconsider and call Joe the plumber.
Most every time I decided to be stubborn and do it myslf it ended up
being more involved, taking much longer, and costing far more... the
cheap often turns out expensive. I no longer attempt car repairs
either... years ago I did major tuneups, put in new clutches, did
complete brake jobs, even tore down and rebuilt engines... but with
today's modern cars the most I'll risk is putting air in the tires.
Golden One
>
> - Show quoted text -
Absolutely agree. My first husband tried to install the double taps
needed for a washing machine. The fittings were recessed into the wall
and plumbers have the right tools to reach them. Husband chipped away
about 12 inches of wall around each tap fitting so he could get his
wrench in there. The plumber that he finally HAD to call laughed all
the way to the bank.
Same husband also changed the washers in the shower taps, that one
should be a no brainer. Somehow he messed it up and water was leaking
done the cavity between the walls!!
JB
sf
wrote:
>All the various tradesmen know each other and so don't want to mooch other's work,
It's a dog feed dog world!
>and if they screw up they become a
>big laughing stock and the butt of jokes that will follow them way
>past retirement.
Quite honestly, if I find a trusted worker who can recommend someone
who can do something else I need done, that's all I need. They've
been on jobs together, they get customer feedback and know who screws
up and who doesn't. Most people work by word of mouth, so you can't
screw the customers and get away with it very long. With luck, I find
someone who doesn't screw up and can recommend others who don't.
--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.
Mae West
George Shirley
> On Wed 22 Oct 2008 04:27:14p, George Shirley told us...
>
>> I've never, in 48 years of marriage, had a washer fail but have had a
>> water heater fail and flood the garage. We have gas stove, gas furnace,
>> and a gas water heater. Heating with electricity is not a cheap way to
>> heat a house, even though you need the juice to run the gas furnace fan.
>
> We have an all electric home and I pefer electric cooking. Living in the
> AZ desert, we actually have a very low electric bill during the months when
> we require heat, as the furnace runs very little. The situations are very
> subjective.
here in SW Louisiana. But when we need heat we need it now. Our PUC
stays on top of the electric utilities but natural gas is only regulated
by the feds. Gas out of LA soil costs more than that gas that crosses
state lines where the feds begin to regulate it. Our total utilities
bills run an average of $135.00 a month, that's electric and gas
combined. City water, sewer, and trash pickup is now at $41.00 a month,
bringing the total to $176.00 average. Water isn't metered here, one
thing we've got that you don't Wayne is lots and lots of water. <VBG>
George Shirley
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:59:26 -0700 (PDT), Sheldon <PENM...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> All the various tradesmen know each other and so don't want to mooch other's work,
>
> It's a dog feed dog world!
>
>> and if they screw up they become a
>> big laughing stock and the butt of jokes that will follow them way
>> past retirement.
>
> Quite honestly, if I find a trusted worker who can recommend someone
> who can do something else I need done, that's all I need. They've
> been on jobs together, they get customer feedback and know who screws
> up and who doesn't. Most people work by word of mouth, so you can't
> screw the customers and get away with it very long. With luck, I find
> someone who doesn't screw up and can recommend others who don't.
>
>
plumb new homes. There is a plumber about a block away who, several
years ago, turned down in-home jobs to only install new home plumbing.
This all happened during a building boom in our area. He doesn't get
much work anymore but Ricky, the guy we use, stays busy seven days a
week. He's still reasonably priced, competent, does exactly what he says
he will do and does it efficiently without damaging anything.
Although I used to do electrical work, age keeps me from crawling around
in attics or under floors so I have an electrical contractor I trust who
does good work, same with AC/heat, carpentry, etc. Having worked in
building trades as a consultant for many years I know who the good guys
are around here. It's amazing the number of con artists there are in
home repair and building.
Sheldon
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Absolutely agree. My first husband tried to install the double taps
> needed for a washing machine. The fittings were recessed into the wall
> and plumbers have the right tools to reach them. Husband chipped away
> about 12 inches of wall around each tap fitting so he could get his
> wrench in there. The plumber that he finally HAD to call laughed all
> the way to the bank.
For many years now washer supply valves are set into a molded plastic
recessed housing that can also accomodate the washer fill hoses so the
machined can be snugged right to the wall, and they use ball valves
now... this job is pretty simple for the homeowner but will probaly
take all day and entail a lot of swearing. I'd recommed hiring a
plumber, it will take about an hour and won't cost very much more than
the parts you'd need to buy regardless.
> Same husband also changed the washers in the shower taps, that one
> should be a no brainer. Somehow he messed it up and water was leaking
> done the cavity between the walls!!
Those are called "shower sets". Yours must have been like fifty years
old to still have washers... was way past time to get rid of it
install a new modern washerless shower set with single handle and
temperature control (you'll never need to worry someone will scald
themself, a must with kids and elderly). Those are typically
accessable from the other side of the wall... but unless someone is
the Bob Vila type I'd strongly suggest having Joe the plumber do this
one. You want something like this: http://tinyurl.com/59c6rz
This is designed with a flexible shower head tube so you don't need to
break up your tiling or destroy a laminate tub/shower surround... and
so it can be installed in like under two hours so the plumber won't
charge an arm and two legs for labor.
Lou Decruss
wrote:
>Those are called "shower sets". Yours must have been like fifty years
>old to still have washers... was way past time to get rid of it
>install a new modern washerless shower set with single handle and
>temperature control (you'll never need to worry someone will scald
>themself, a must with kids and elderly). Those are typically
>accessable from the other side of the wall... but unless someone is
>the Bob Vila type I'd strongly suggest having Joe the plumber do this
>one. You want something like this: http://tinyurl.com/59c6rz
>
>http://www.us.kohler.com/performanceshowers/performancevalves.jsp?section=2&nsection=2&nsubsection=3&category=12&nitem=cat12
>
>This is designed with a flexible shower head tube so you don't need to
>break up your tiling or destroy a laminate tub/shower surround... and
>so it can be installed in like under two hours so the plumber won't
>charge an arm and two legs for labor.
I'll agree that a shower set isn't a homeowner or a typical handyman
job but the old valve won't be able to be disconnected without some
wall damage. If you have a wall behind you can get access from you
might have a chance but if the old one is properly bolted to a stud
from the shower side you're screwed.
Lou
Lou Decruss
wrote:
>Even 25 years ago cutting the hole in your counter top and installing
>a kitchen sink, faucet, and connecting the supply and waste lines for
>$250 was a bargain... because I don't believe that job can be done in
>two hours, more like four. Even without cutting the hole installling
>a kitchen sink takes more than two hours.
The sink comes with a template for the cut and it shouldn't take more
than 15 minutes to do. This is only true for a formica top.
>The job you decribed above required cutting into your counter top,
>those kind of jobs are always costly because whoever does that cutting
>is taking a big risk. Normally whoever supplies the counter top cuts
>in sink holes.
This is true. They need the sink template and cut it at the plant.
They usually wait until install day to drill the faucet holes so they
can see the faucet.
>Plumbers don't cut sink holes into counter tops, they
>usually refuse those jobs,
In the past plumbers always cut the holes unless is was a big union
job. On union jobs the carpenters unions don't even like electricians
cutting their own holes for receptacles installed on the sides of
cabinets. Both electricians and plumbers are very capable of cutting
the holes and are almost always willing to do so in a typical
homeowner setting. Times are changing with the new high end
countertop materials being used.
Lou
Nancy2
I have a wonderful small-town plumber type who charges labor by the
HALF HOUR!
Your $32 plus all the time and gas it took to drive to the hardware
stores and back certainly cost you more than a half-hour plumber, who
would have had all the supplies he needed on his truck.
Still, it always feels good to do something your own self. ;-)
N.
Sheldon
> Sheldon wrote:
>
> >Those are called "shower sets". �Yours must have been like fifty years
> >old to still have washers... was way past time to get rid of it
> >install a new modern washerless shower set with single handle and
> >temperature control (you'll never need to worry someone will scald
> >themself, a must with kids and elderly). �Those are typically
> >accessable from the other side of the wall... but unless someone is
> >the Bob Vila type I'd strongly suggest having Joe the plumber do this
> >one. �You want something like this:http://tinyurl.com/59c6rz
>
>
> >This is designed with a flexible shower head tube so you don't need to
> >break up your tiling or destroy a laminate tub/shower surround... and
> >so it can be installed in like under two hours so the plumber won't
> >charge an arm and two legs for labor.
>
> I'll agree that a shower set isn't a homeowner or a typical handyman
> job but the old valve won't be able to be disconnected without some
> wall damage. �If you have a wall behind you can get access from you
> might have a chance but if the old one is properly bolted to a stud
Nope, the estucheon is removed (if there is one) and the main body is
sliced out with a sawzall with as many slices as it takes (copper and
brass hacksaw like butter) and whatever parts remain in the wall are
abandonded, just let the hacked parts fall to the bottom of the void.
With the new style valve bodys one can choose from any number of
different sized estucheons to cover the hole, same as carpenters
choose larger molding to hide mishtakes. Plumbers don't try to save
old parts that they intend to replace... they use the path of least
resistance to butcher them out of the way. You obviously being very
inexperineced and not possessing much mechanical ability would take
the typical two left hands homeowner micro surgery approach and go
after a plumbing job with a scalpel.
Wayne Boatwright
> Obviously varies by region, we air condition for about ten months a year
> here in SW Louisiana. But when we need heat we need it now. Our PUC
> stays on top of the electric utilities but natural gas is only regulated
> by the feds. Gas out of LA soil costs more than that gas that crosses
> state lines where the feds begin to regulate it. Our total utilities
> bills run an average of $135.00 a month, that's electric and gas
> combined. City water, sewer, and trash pickup is now at $41.00 a month,
> bringing the total to $176.00 average. Water isn't metered here, one
> thing we've got that you don't Wayne is lots and lots of water. <VBG>
We also air condition for for about ten months a year in AZ, but our
average temps are probably a bit higher than yours. There have been a
couple of years when our electric furnace never went on. No gas, of
course. We're on city water, but have a septic system, so no sewer
charges. Our water is surprising inexpensive since it's not as plentiful
as yours. Our trash pickup is a separate charge altogether, and more
expensive than yours. I can't really give you details on any of the costs,
as David does our budget and pays our bills. I do know our overall costs
are lower here than when we were in Ohio, and both all electric homes were
cheaper to operate than the one where we had gas.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
*******************************************
Date: Thursday, 10(X)/23(XXIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
2wks 4dys 14hrs 43mins
*******************************************
Those nicotine patches work pretty
well, but it's hard to keep them lit.
Lou Decruss
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>I am sure that a plumber could have done it in a fraction of the time,
>but since they charge so much for house calls and outrageous hourly
>rates along with marked up prices for parts, it would have cost a
>bundle. I spent a total of $32 on supply lines and today's parts. I
>saved a lot of money and now I have the satisfaction of a job well
>done... and a few scraped knuckles.
Sounds like you did a good job and learned a few things. It's always
interesting taking on a challenge. I had a serpentine belt go out on
one of our cars a few months ago. Two of my friends paid around $400
to have them fixed. It took awhile to find the threading pattern
online but I did the job for $19.99 and about 2 hours including
research. Pretty good return for my time.
Lou
Dave Smith
> I'll agree that a shower set isn't a homeowner or a typical handyman
> job but the old valve won't be able to be disconnected without some
> wall damage. If you have a wall behind you can get access from you
> might have a chance but if the old one is properly bolted to a stud
> from the shower side you're screwed.
I was lucky with my main bathroom. Whoever did the original work left
access from the cupboard under the sink. There is a plywood panel that
can be slipped right out. When I renovated the bathroom I tore out the
old old drywall around the tub, so I had complete access from both side.
Then I tiled it. It was a good thing that I bought extra tiles
because I broke a few of them when I was drilling holes for the pipes in
them.
Dave Smith
Perhaps if you are really, really slow. Figure out where the sink is
going to fit and use the template to mark the cut. If using an old sink,
invert it, mark a line around the lip then cut 1/2" inch inside it.
Drill a hole large enough for the saw blade and start cutting. Assemble
the taps and supply lines and the drain tail piece. Run a line of
plumbers putty around the edge, insert the assembled sink, line up the
tail piece into the trap and tighten the union. Attach the hold down
clamps, and connect the water. Two hours tops.
If removing an old sink you will probably need extra time to deal with
rusted nuts and fittings.
> I'll tackle certain small plumbing jobs like repair a leaky faucet by
> installing a new cartridge but if the job requires that I need to buy
> specialized tools and make multiple runs to the hardware store for
> various fittings and such then I reconsider and call Joe the plumber.
Replacing taps usually simple and does not call for special tools. All
you need is a pair of pliers and an adjustable wrench. Some need a small
Allen key which they provide. Most faucets come with a matching drain
flange. Putting them together is easy, but taking the old one apart can
be a major problem, as it was in my case.
> Most every time I decided to be stubborn and do it myslf it ended up
> being more involved, taking much longer, and costing far more... the
> cheap often turns out expensive.
On top of the cost of the faucet set I only had to buy a new pair of
supply lines for $20 and another $12 for the new trap, pipe and
fittings for the drain.
> I no longer attempt car repairs
> either... years ago I did major tuneups, put in new clutches, did
> complete brake jobs, even tore down and rebuilt engines... but with
> today's modern cars the most I'll risk is putting air in the tires.
That part is true enough. Cars used to be pretty easy to work on for
anyone with a mechanical aptitude. Most parts were durable and cheap.
Now they are hi tech and flimsy. I had to change a rear signal light in
my wife's Buick a few weeks ago. I got the appropriate bulb from auto
supply store and went home to install it, thinking I could just get into
the trunk, locate the socket, give it a twist to pull it out, pop out
the old bulb and then stick it back together. I had to get pliers, a
screwdriver and an adjustable wrench because I had unscrew one useless
panel, then roll back the carpeting, remove four nuts and slide the tail
light assemble out, then twist, pop and replace.
Sheldon
> Sheldon wrote:
>
> >Even 25 years ago cutting the hole in your counter top and installing
> >a kitchen sink, faucet, and connecting the supply and waste lines for
> >$250 was a bargain... because I don't believe that job can be done in
> >two hours, more like four. �Even without cutting the hole installling
> >a kitchen sink takes more than two hours.
>
> The sink comes with a template for the cut and it shouldn't take more
> than 15 minutes to do. �This is only true for a formica top.
Laminate counters today all come with the sink cut out. No one cuts
faucet holes in laminate countertops, they'd leak and the partical
board would rot in short order, the holes are part of the sink... in
fact the faucet and drain are installed on the sink before it's set in
the cut out (why work upside down hunched into a cabinet). And the
sink cut out would be reinforced with a double thickness partical
board around the whole perimeter... were there no cut out there'd be
no reinforcement and so that's another time consuming job, to make up
the sections, locate, glue, and screw (10 seconds to type, an hour to
do). No one uses those templates for new installations unless they
custom build their own countertop, templates are sometimes used for
enlarging an opening for a slightly larger replacement sink. And even
for a custom counter it would take at least an hour to cut the hole,
it would take a 1/4 hour minimum to measure, square up, and make sure
of centering with existing plumbing, and drilling the corner holes
would take another 1/4 hour... people have to retrieve tools and set
up, workmen are not bionic with drills and saws built into their
robotic arms and drill bits tucked into their plumber's crack. It
takes at least a half hour to attach the supply and waste, and last I
installed a kitchen sink it took almost an hour to fasten the sink
from below... sure you can cheat and just use a third the fasteners
but I used them all. C'mon, it can take a good half hour just to
unpack the sink and faucet,
arrange all the hardware, look it all over for damage, missing parts,
and peruse installation manual. And there are new supply valves to
install, would be dumb to reuse the ancient ones, smart to use new
risers too. And can use up another half hour futzing with plumber's
putty to seal all around the sink, drain, and faucet. and som epeople
have a soap dispensor, I had a reverse osmosis water tap to install.
And then there's clean up, and put tools away. No way can this job be
done in under four hours, not unless you do a slop job... and
typically plumbers do this job with a helper.
> >The job you decribed above required cutting into your counter top,
> >those kind of jobs are always costly because whoever does that cutting
> >is taking a big risk. �Normally whoever supplies the counter top cuts
> >in sink holes. �
>
> This is true. �They need the sink template and cut it at the plant.
The template is marked on the cardboard box the sink is packaged in...
the factory has a computer program for the cut outs. If it's a whole
kitchen remodel with custom cabinets then the cabinet shop would pop
in the cutout.
> They usually wait until install day to drill the faucet holes so they
> can see the faucet. �
Nonsense, faucet hole distnces are standard... laminate counters use
sinks that have the holes in the sink, no one installs a faucet
directly into a laminate counter.
> >Plumbers don't cut sink holes into counter tops, they
> >usually refuse those jobs,
>
> In the past plumbers always cut the holes unless is was a big union
> job. �On union jobs the carpenters unions don't even like electricians
> cutting their own holes for receptacles installed on the sides of
> cabinets. �Both electricians and plumbers are very capable of cutting
> the holes and are almost always willing to do so in a typical
> homeowner setting. �Times are changing with the new high end
> countertop materials being used.
>
> Lou
On a union job or not no one does any part of electrical work but an
electrician, electricians do their own wood cutting/drilling according
to code... code is very specific on how to run wire and a licensed
electrician has to sign off... carpenters haven't a clue.
Plumbers don't make cut outs in countertops, they would enlarge an
existing cutout a Cyberhair with a rasp if it's a bit tight, but
that's it... plumbers are not going to be making cutouts and
installing cutout reinforcements, not unless someone is fool enough to
pay plumber's rates for something a helper does in the cabinet factory
for maybe a bit over minimum wage. Plumbers don't touch stone
counters either, and stone counter workers don't do plumbing.
Sometimes people hire someone who bills themself as a "Handyman" for
these kinds of jobs, I strongly suggest not... the cheap comes out
expensive. A real plumber can do these jobs in half the time a
typical homeowner can and without destroying something, because they
do these jobs so often they don't have to think, they can do it in
their sleep so to speak. A real plumber knows just what tools/
supplies to bring through the door, they don't make dozens of trips to
their truck to retrieve this and that, and don't need to make trips to
a hardware store mid job. That's why installing my faucet cost only
an hour's labor. The plumber walked through my door with everything
he needed in a contractor's bucket... used the bucket to catch the
water in the trap... he had it all down to a science, we chatted the
entire time and before I realized it he was ready to walk out the
door, all needed was a check and to use my phone to call the next
customer, his cell didn't work in my area.
Lou Decruss
wrote:
>Nope, the estucheon is removed (if there is one) and the main body is
>sliced out with a sawzall with as many slices as it takes (copper and
>brass hacksaw like butter) and whatever parts remain in the wall are
>abandonded, just let the hacked parts fall to the bottom of the void.
>With the new style valve bodys one can choose from any number of
>different sized estucheons to cover the hole, same as carpenters
>choose larger molding to hide mishtakes. Plumbers don't try to save
>old parts that they intend to replace... they use the path of least
>resistance to butcher them out of the way. You obviously being very
>inexperineced and not possessing much mechanical ability would take
>the typical two left hands homeowner micro surgery approach and go
>after a plumbing job with a scalpel.
LOL. You have to call a plumber for a simple bath faucet and you call
me inexperienced? The hole in the drywall is about 3 1/2 inches
round. Look at the cut from the mixer link you posted and tell me how
that's going to fit in the hole, be fastened, and have the supply
pipes connected. That's not even addressing the fact that the pipes
have almost no chance of being in the same place.
You are as wrong as those stupid weekend DIY shows that tell some
dumbass homeowner they can redo a bathroom by themselves in a weekend.
Come back when you can tell me how to use a pipe wrench through a
3-1/2 inch hole or sweat a joint through it.
The escutcheon that comes with the kit will usually have a keyway in
it and countersunk screw holes made at the factory. Modifying
anything else will look like,,,,well,,,YOUR bathroom. There are
products on the market to cover up the mess but I sure wouldn't call
them escutcheons. The ones used in tub/shower applications are about
12"X24" and look like the retrofit consoles sold in the 70's in the
automotive section of Kmart. That's probably what you have in your
bathroom.
Oh, just so you know, you spelled escutcheon wrong.
Lou
Dave Smith
> Lou Decruss wrote:
>> The sink comes with a template for the cut and it shouldn't take more
>> than 15 minutes to do. �This is only true for a formica top.
>
> Laminate counters today all come with the sink cut out.
How do they know where the sink hole needs to be cut, or what size and
shape to cut? The fact is that building supply stores sell counter
tops. They do not come with the hole cut in them. FWIW I was recently at
a counter top manufacturer to see about getting on, and they DO NOT cut
the hole for the sink.
> No one uses those templates for new installations unless they
> custom build their own countertop, templates are sometimes used for
The usual procedure is to order a counter with end caps to measure, or
to buy a counter top and caps and cut them yourself to measure. Then
figure out where the hole for the sink has to go. The template shows the
size and shape of the hole that needs to be cut.
> enlarging an opening for a slightly larger replacement sink. And even
> for a custom counter it would take at least an hour to cut the hole,
An hour to cut a sink hole? Are you scratching it out with an old door
key? It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes with the proper saw.
> it would take a 1/4 hour minimum to measure, square up, and make sure
> of centering with existing plumbing, and drilling the corner holes
> would take another 1/4 hour... people have to retrieve tools and set
> up, workmen are not bionic with drills and saws built into their
> robotic arms and drill bits tucked into their plumber's crack. It
> takes at least a half hour to attach the supply and waste, and last I
> installed a kitchen sink it took almost an hour to fasten the sink
> from below... sure you can cheat and just use a third the fasteners
> but I used them all.
There are what.... 8 fasteners ? And it took you almost an hour to hook
them on to the tabs on the sink and screw them into place????
> C'mon, it can take a good half hour just to
> unpack the sink and faucet,
If you have some idea how to do it, it should not take a half hour to
unpack the sink, faucet and tailpieces and assemble them. Once that is
done you drop it into place, take a few minutes to secure the sink and a
few more minutes to connect the supply lines and the drains.
> The template is marked on the cardboard box the sink is packaged in...
> the factory has a computer program for the cut outs. If it's a whole
> kitchen remodel with custom cabinets then the cabinet shop would pop
> in the cutout.
Computer programmed???? It is a prescribed size and shape and it is
simply printed on to the cardboard box. Granted, these days the box
graphics are computerized.
> Nonsense, faucet hole distnces are standard... laminate counters use
> sinks that have the holes in the sink, no one installs a faucet
> directly into a laminate counter.
True. Once you cut out the sink hole the faucet will fit into the
pre-drilled holes in the sink and fit within the sink hole.
Wayne Boatwright
> Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
> Subject: Re: OT..(slightly) ... home repairs
> From: Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca>
>
> Sheldon wrote:
>> Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>>> The sink comes with a template for the cut and it shouldn't take more
>>> than 15 minutes to do. 𡆀俊his is only true for a formica top.
>>
>> Laminate counters today all come with the sink cut out.
>
> How do they know where the sink hole needs to be cut, or what size and
> shape to cut? The fact is that building supply stores sell counter
> tops. They do not come with the hole cut in them. FWIW I was recently at
> a counter top manufacturer to see about getting on, and they DO NOT cut
> the hole for the sink.
Just consider the source, Dave. The reason for the nonsensical idiocy will
be come perfectly clear.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
*******************************************
Date: Thursday, 10(X)/23(XXIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
2wks 4dys 10hrs 40mins
*******************************************
'Find God'? Why? Is he missing . . . ?
*******************************************
Dave Smith
>
>> How do they know where the sink hole needs to be cut, or what size and
>> shape to cut? The fact is that building supply stores sell counter
>> tops. They do not come with the hole cut in them. FWIW I was recently at
>> a counter top manufacturer to see about getting on, and they DO NOT cut
>> the hole for the sink.
>
> Just consider the source, Dave. The reason for the nonsensical idiocy will
> be come perfectly clear.
LOL You're right What was I thinking?
Dave Smith
>
> Kudos to Dave,
TY :-)
>
> Years ago my husband replaced something in one of our upstairs toilets and
> didn't get something tight enough. I fell asleep that night on the couch
> watching TV. In the middle of the night my husband heard water running and
> wondered why I was taking a shower. I wasn't! He discovered our bathroom
> flooded and walked downstairs (squish, squish, squish through the wet
> carpet). His plumbing job did a lot of damage. To this day we tell people
> who would like new carpet to use my husband's plumbing services <g>.
> Homeowner's Insurance does cover ineptness.
The toilet was two weeks ago. That was another saga. Years ago we
remodelled the bathroom and my wife selected Harvest Gold for the sink,
tub and toilet and we picked out appropriate tiles. I did that job
myself. While working on the taps I discovered the reason there was so
little water pressure form the taps. The pipes were packed with nails.
We got them out and now the water runs faster. The tub was a big job
but my father helped and he was pretty handy with stuff like that.
We had had increasing problems with th toilet flushing properly, Thanks
to our hard, sandy well water the innards were clogged up. You can't
get Harvest Gold any more. Without going to a lot of effort and a hell
of a lot of expense, you can't get anything but white or bone, and bone
runs about three times the price of white. Once again, I had to take my
wife around to all the local suppliers to convince her that it was white
or bone, and that bone didn't match any better than white so there was
no point in paying all that extra for bone and still have unmatched
fixtures. I went ahead and bought white, a water saving unit that was
well rated and on sale. I took it out of the box and left it sitting in
the spare bedroom for her to get used to the white, long enough that she
just wanted it installed.
Last week my neighbour was rained out of his stone work job and asked if
I needed help with the toilet. I had been afraid to ge started on it in
case I ran into problems. The hold town bolts were very, very rusty.
They were so rusty they snapped off with just a slight turn and we were
able to remove the old toilet in a matter of minutes. The biggest part
of the job was cleaning up the old wax seal and crud around the base.
He put the new one together while I did the cleanup.
Kathleen
you're stuck between asleep and fully awake, only you think you're awake
and lucid.
And I dreamed that Faith, an older woman I know from flyball, was
standing in the foyer of my split level house talking to my husband.
They're looking up at the light fixture, which was dripping water onto
the floor and she said, "Tell Kathleen that you guys have a leak in your
roof."
It was such an odd dream that it stuck in my head and when I got up the
next morning I went down to the foyer and checked the floor and light
fixture, both of which were bone dry, with no sign of water damage past
or present. I even told my husband about it and he laughed and asked if
Faith had even ever been to our house (she hadn't).
But the following week we had a major storm. I woke to the sound of
running water, walked out to the living room and down to the foyer,
where I found a steady trickle of water running down from center of the
shorted out light fixture.
Unfortunately, I got no premonitory warnings whem my washer crapped out
on me, or when the van's transmission failed.
sf
<gsh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Although I used to do electrical work, age keeps me from crawling around
>in attics or under floors so I have an electrical contractor I trust who
>does good work, same with AC/heat, carpentry, etc. Having worked in
>building trades as a consultant for many years I know who the good guys
>are around here. It's amazing the number of con artists there are in
>home repair and building.
Everything you said is absolutely TRUE. Thanks for corroborating.
sf
wrote:
>Laminate counters today all come with the sink cut out.
I watched HGTV last weekend... don't remember the show, but they
installed laminate counter tops. What you say is true, it's not like
stone tops where they cut on site. However, even though I watched it
on a *BIG* big screen TV... I'd actually bet money the cuts had
laminate over them. I know the show was saying that when using
laminate, you *need* to use over mount sinks - but my "failing eyes"
saw finished inside edges on the sink cut. Obviously (now) the cuts
were not finished, but I *saw* them as finished and it had a "wow"
factor for me.
sigh! GAHD
:(
<sad it wasn't the case>
sf
<waynebo...@geemail.com> wrote:
>On Thu 23 Oct 2008 01:06:56p, Dave Smith told us...
>
>> Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
>> Subject: Re: OT..(slightly) ... home repairs
>> From: Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca>
>>
>> Sheldon wrote:
>>> Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>>> The sink comes with a template for the cut and it shouldn't take more
>>>> than 15 minutes to do. 𡆀俊his is only true for a formica top.
>>>
>>> Laminate counters today all come with the sink cut out.
>>
>> How do they know where the sink hole needs to be cut, or what size and
>> shape to cut? The fact is that building supply stores sell counter
>> tops. They do not come with the hole cut in them. FWIW I was recently at
>> a counter top manufacturer to see about getting on, and they DO NOT cut
>> the hole for the sink.
>
>Just consider the source, Dave. The reason for the nonsensical idiocy will
>be come perfectly clear.
So laminate counter tops don't come precut? I decided from the post
that they came with precut sink holes and took off excess length on
site.
Wayne Boatwright
There may be some that are probably low-end laminates with specific sinks
in mind. Most come blank to be cut on site, depending on sink style and
intended location.
Both stock and custom laminate countertops are available.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
*******************************************
Date: Thursday, 10(X)/23(XXIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
2wks 4dys 59mins
*******************************************
Nobody's ugly after 2 a.m.
*******************************************
Giusi
Perhaps two words of what you said is true. Why don't you quit telling
people who may not know the difference all these ridiculous "never" "all"
things? Go to the library and get out a magazine on kitchen design.
Giusi
news:7bn2g41bb0cltk8i5...@4ax.com...
What makes more sense to you? That the counter comes with a sink placed in
it and you have to relocate plumbing to where the hole is? That the counter
comes with no hole so you can place it where the plumbing is?
In a custom situation you can submit a dimensioned plan showing where the
sink is to be, and you can ship the sink to the counter maker. In that case
the counter will come with the sink already mounted.
Remember, I did this from 1973 until 2001 so I am not giving Sheldon any
wiggle room at all.
Dave Smith
>
> So laminate counter tops don't come precut? I decided from the post
> that they came with precut sink holes and took off excess length on
> site.
Go to the nearest Home Depot or some other hardware store that is large
enough to carry counter tops in stock and see for yourself. The hole
have to be custom cut to bit the sink that is going into it. They are
not all the same size and shape,
Lou Decruss
wrote:
Sheldung's problem is (besides being a rabid dog) he thinks it's
always done the same way. Cut and paste doesn't work for home
remodeling. I know someone who owns a 6 flat. He's remodeled 3 of
them so far. 2 sink holes were done at the factory and one was done
on site. And his blanket statement that sink holes are standard is
wrong also. Some have an isolated handle and spigot, and can be
placed wherever the homeowner wants them. The bottom mount sinks I've
seen have to holes. sheldon has ingested too much chinese laminate.
Lou
Mark Thorson
>
> While working on the taps I discovered the reason there was so
> little water pressure form the taps. The pipes were packed with nails.
> We got them out and now the water runs faster.
How weird. How would nails get in the pipes?
It sounds like sabotage, dating from whenever
the pipes were worked on. Maybe you didn't
tip enough.
> Once again, I had to take my
> wife around to all the local suppliers to convince her that it was white
> or bone, and that bone didn't match any better than white so there was
> no point in paying all that extra for bone and still have unmatched
> fixtures. I went ahead and bought white, a water saving unit that was
> well rated and on sale. I took it out of the box and left it sitting in
> the spare bedroom for her to get used to the white, long enough that she
> just wanted it installed.
I'm sure she loved that treatment. But hey,
you won!
> The biggest part of the job
> was cleaning up the old wax seal and crud around the base.
> He put the new one together while I did the cleanup.
Isn't it weird that such a ridiculous 19th century
method of sealing the toilet to the base is still
being used in the 21st century? Three centuries
from now, people will still probably be messing
around with those stupid wax seals.
Lou Decruss
I had to do the one in our last home. It was a split level and the
shower set backed up to the kitchen which was tiled also. I opted to
open the bath side up. Mainly because I had a few extra tiles.
Opening the wall up, installing the new plumbing, durarock, smoothing
the wall and reinstalling the tiles took quite a few evenings. But it
did look nice when I was done.
Lou
Mark Thorson
>
> Then I tiled it. It was a good thing that I bought extra tiles
> because I broke a few of them when I was drilling holes for the pipes in
> them.
How did you drill it? Except for Macor, most ceramics
do not drill well. Drilling ceramic or glass is more
like a grinding process.
A trick that might help is to immerse the workpiece
in water while drilling. Of course, if your drill
is connected to the AC line, this is an extreme shock
hazard.
A little-known fact is that thin glass sheets can be
cut with a scissors when the cutting is done in a bucket
of water. The water spreads out the acoustic waves
that propagate cracks. I've done this, it's weird how
you can cut glass into arbitrary shapes this way, like
it was plastic. You don't get a smooth edge -- it's like
the scissors crushes the glass, a little bit at a time.
Dave Smith
> Dave Smith wrote:
>> While working on the taps I discovered the reason there was so
>> little water pressure form the taps. The pipes were packed with nails.
>> We got them out and now the water runs faster.
>
> How weird. How would nails get in the pipes?
> It sounds like sabotage, dating from whenever
> the pipes were worked on. Maybe you didn't
> tip enough.
I had nothing to do with it. It was like that when I bought the place.
There was very, very low water pressure at the bathroom faucet. A lot
of the work on the house had been done by a previous owner who had a
reputation for being a bit of a booze hound. He also had a family of
mischievous boys. The probably dropped the nails into the exposed pipes.
It was an odd sensation to be sawing through a copper pipe and to
suddenly hear and feel a difference. The good part was that I had
located the problem and all had full water pressure to the faucet.
>
>> Once again, I had to take my
>> wife around to all the local suppliers to convince her that it was white
>> or bone, and that bone didn't match any better than white so there was
>> no point in paying all that extra for bone and still have unmatched
>> fixtures. I went ahead and bought white, a water saving unit that was
>> well rated and on sale. I took it out of the box and left it sitting in
>> the spare bedroom for her to get used to the white, long enough that she
>> just wanted it installed.
>
> I'm sure she loved that treatment. But hey,
> you won!
She was thrilled just to have it installed at last. The thing was that I
could get a white toilet for $120-200 but to go with bone it was going
to be at least $450, and bone would not match the bathtub any better
than the white. When I went ahead with my plan to get white I got one
on sale for $99, and FWIW..... it works great.
>
>> The biggest part of the job
>> was cleaning up the old wax seal and crud around the base.
>> He put the new one together while I did the cleanup.
>
> Isn't it weird that such a ridiculous 19th century
> method of sealing the toilet to the base is still
> being used in the 21st century? Three centuries
> from now, people will still probably be messing
> around with those stupid wax seals.
They are cheap, easy to use, have a huge tolerance and they work great.
Dave Smith
> Dave Smith wrote:
>> Then I tiled it. It was a good thing that I bought extra tiles
>> because I broke a few of them when I was drilling holes for the pipes in
>> them.
>
> How did you drill it? Except for Macor, most ceramics
> do not drill well. Drilling ceramic or glass is more
> like a grinding process.
I drilled it from the back with a concrete drill bit. I broke a few
before I got a whole through one. Luckily, only one needed to be
drilled. The other pipes came out at edges of tiles I I was able to nip
the corners. There is a reason for those fixtures having flashings :-)
Dave Smith
>
> How did you drill it? Except for Macor, most ceramics
> do not drill well. Drilling ceramic or glass is more
> like a grinding process.
>
BTW..... I had an interesting experience with clerical incompetence with
the tile store. I had bought the tile from a local store and borrowed
the tools, paying a $25 deposit. I did the job right away, returned the
tiles and got my deposit back. About a month later I got a call from the
store wanting their tools back. The woman claimed that someone had
mistakenly returned my deposit without getting the tools back. I told
her to think about it for a second... I paid the deposit, returned the
tools and got the deposit back.
About a year later I tiled my other bathroom and went to the same local
store, paid the $25 deposit and borrowed their tools. When I finished
the job I returned the tools and collected my $25 deposit. About a month
later I got phone call from the store demanding the return of their
tools. Once again they were claiming that someone had returned my
deposit without me returning the tools
Yes.... I did go back to the same store when I did some tile work in my
kitchen. They had the best selection of tiles and good prices. However,
when I returned the tools and got my deposit back I told her to make a
note that I had returned them and got my deposit back and that anyone
who called with that lame ass story was going to be facing some serious
wrath because it just isn't possible fore anyone to be that stupid three
times.
Mark Thorson
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
> >
> > How did you drill it? Except for Macor, most ceramics
> > do not drill well. Drilling ceramic or glass is more
> > like a grinding process.
>
> I drilled it from the back with a concrete drill bit. I broke a few
> before I got a whole through one. Luckily, only one needed to be
> drilled. The other pipes came out at edges of tiles I I was able to nip
> the corners. There is a reason for those fixtures having flashings :-)
I suppose you're lucky you got even one good one.
If you have a precision fixture, the most reliable
way to drill ceramic is to drill half the depth,
then flip it over and drill the other half, so
that the holes meet in the middle. This avoids
chipping that otherwise almost always occurs
on the far side when the drill breaks through.
Sheldon
There are hole saws with an abrasive grit cutting edge made especially
for such jobs.
Mark Thorson
>
> Yes.... I did go back to the same store when I did some tile work in my
> kitchen. They had the best selection of tiles and good prices. However,
> when I returned the tools and got my deposit back I told her to make a
> note that I had returned them and got my deposit back and that anyone
> who called with that lame ass story was going to be facing some serious
> wrath because it just isn't possible fore anyone to be that stupid three
> times.
Sounds like someone at the store is stealing tools
and trying to shift blame to the customers. Probably
selling the tools on eBay. Funny how eBay has taken
a formerly shady activity -- selling stolen property --
and turned it into an Internet business model. Now,
if only somebody could think of a way to do the same
thing with illegal drugs, they'll make a fortune.
Dave Smith
> Dave Smith wrote:
>> Yes.... I did go back to the same store when I did some tile work in my
>> kitchen. They had the best selection of tiles and good prices. However,
>> when I returned the tools and got my deposit back I told her to make a
>> note that I had returned them and got my deposit back and that anyone
>> who called with that lame ass story was going to be facing some serious
>> wrath because it just isn't possible fore anyone to be that stupid three
>> times.
>
> Sounds like someone at the store is stealing tools
> and trying to shift blame to the customers.
It is bad enough that they pulled that stunt the first time, but I was
astounded that they would do it a second time. The whole idea was so
lame. I mean.... pay a deposit then return the tools and get the deposit
back. It's pretty simple. How stupid are they or how stupid they think
their customers are that they claim that they had returned the deposit
in error. No one returns a deposit on borrowed tools that have not been
returned.
SteveB
top is drastically reduced? So, if they WOULD cut out the sink hole in the
shop, they would have a flimsy breakable countertop to transport. Once it's
mounted and sturdy, cutting the hole is then the sensible time to do it.
Steve
Dave Smith
True, that could be a problem. However, the thing is that there are lots
of different styles of kitchen sinks. They come in different sizes and
shapes, so to suggest that the counters come with pre=cut sink holes is
Sheldonesque.