ignorant question on big name trainers
Natalie A Morris
than english, so my question may just be because I not as involved with
english riding (though when I can afford it I want to take dessage lessons)
I have gone to a few shows, I have seen lots of web pages, etc. My question
is most of the "Big Name" trainers like John Lyonns, Pony Boy, and even
Monty Roberts all seem to be "western" riders.
Is this true or is it just because I look for the western that I find the
western?
I have seen lots of english trainers, and in fact there seem to be many more
english trainers than western in our area, and I have seen demonstrations by
english riders but they just don't seem to be the same kind of "Big Names".
Or am I just ignorant?
Thanks,
Natalia
Adrienne Regard
Natalie A Morris wrote in message
<7s5dr4$ban$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>My question
>is most of the "Big Name" trainers like John Lyonns, Pony Boy, and even
>Monty Roberts all seem to be "western" riders.
>Is this true or is it just because I look for the western that I find the
>western?
Yes, because there are 'big name' trainers in English, too.
You clinic with George Morris, it's a big deal. Ditto when you could with
de Nemethy, and de Kunffy, and Klimke. These are rider-focussed events, not
horse training events, though.
Like you, I know more about one segment of the sport than the others. I
don't know about trainers of horses, though, so I don't know if there's an
equivalent in English. But English riding has a broad classical base, so
nobody has a corner on the market for figuring out how to greenbreak a
horse, and the respect for the classical base means folks aren't all that
interested in 'gimmicks', whether they produce results or not.
Though there are english people who use round pens and certain NH exercises.
. .
Adrienne Regard
Kris Carroll
> Or am I just ignorant?
No, just very uninformed. There are big names in dressage, showjumping,
eventing, show hunters, fox hunting circles, et al. I'm sure you've heard
of the Olympic equestrian teams. <G> In addition to western diciplines,
the following urls link to places in mostly the US and Canada that you
might find of interest.
http://www.horse-country.com/assoc.html links to
BHS - British Horse Society
British Field Sports Society
Eventing in Canada
Masters of Foxhounds Association of America
National Sporting Library
Performance Horse Registry
US Combined Training Association
United States Dressage Federation
United States Equestrian Team
United States Pony Clubs
http://www.horse-country.com/sport.html links to
American Horse Shows Association
British Horse Trials Association
BCM Equestrian News Around the World
The Equestrian Times International News Archives
Badminton
Burghley
Canadian Equestrian Team/Canadian Equestrian Federation
The Chronicle of the Horse (US) http://www.chronofhorse.com/
Westchester-Fairfield Dressage Association
Fair Hill International Home Page
Hampton Classic
International Dressage Results
Canada - Results
Collingwood Horse Show
Federation Equestrian International
US Polo Association
Steeplechasing
Argicomm's Racing Sites
Endurance Rider's Home Page
Eventing in Canada
World Sidesaddle Federation
A few books you might find interesting....
Training the Three-Day-Event Horse and Rider James C. Wofford
Hunter Seat Equitation, George H. Morris
That Winning Feeling, Jane Savoie
Judging Hunters and Hunter Seat Equitation, Anna Jane White-Mullin
Riding Logic; Wilhelm Museler
Klimke on Dressage: From the Young Horse Through Grand Prix
The Riding Teacher; Alois Podhajsky; Hardcover
Training Strategies for Dressage Rider, Charles De Kunffy
AlaTmPnr
>You clinic with George Morris, it's a big deal. Ditto when you could with
de Nemethy, and de Kunffy, and Klimke. These are rider-focussed events, not
horse training events, though.
And then Kris Carroll wrote:
>>No, just very uninformed. There are big names in dressage, showjumping,
eventing, show hunters, fox hunting circles, et al. I'm sure you've heard of
the Olympic equestrian teams. <G> In addition to western diciplines, the
following urls link to places in mostly the US and Canada that you might find
of interest.
Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics all
seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse? Now why
is that?
Bill
Kris Carroll
> Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics all
> seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse? Now why
> is that?
Train the horse and all you've got is a passenger. Train the rider and the
rest follows.
Kris C
Kris Carroll
> If you have a nicely trained horse you dont have to be that good a rider.
You said it.
Kris C.
ghostwalker
matter if it is a saturday nite jackpot or an HJ
event.personally i would rather be a passanger on a well
trained horse than a well trained rider on a wreck waiting
to happen.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Ed Lehman
AlaTmPnr wrote in message <19990920192859...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics all
>seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse? Now
why
>is that?
That has not been my experience with English style lessons and clinics. I
have found things to be more of a blend of horse and rider. Perhaps you've
attended the wrong clinics/lessons?
eileen morgan
The Mare's Nest
Palmerton, PA
eileen...@yahoo.com
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
CJ
always told me is that your not training the dogs, your training the
handlers. The same goes for horses and riders.
Cara
Kris Carroll <kcar...@horse-country.com> wrote in message
news:kcarroll-200...@blv-pm403-ip85.nwnexus.net...
> (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> > Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics
all
> > seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse?
Now why
> > is that?
>
AlaTmPnr
>Train the horse and all you've got is a passenger. Train the rider and the
rest follows.
Hmmm is that why you see so many horses in elevator bits with figure 8's and
standing martingales in english?
You have good theory but it rarely goes that way. You generally have half
trained riders on untrained horses and trying to do the best that they can.
These little girls will go to bigger bits and more paraphenalia than you can
find in an Army surplus store .. and who can blame them? They are just trying
to survive the inept training education that they are getting.
Hell even his royal highness ...... advocates going bigger rather than training
the horse. Now personally he may approach this from a different perspective
but having watched the olympics and the rollex on tv .... I am not impressed.
I have seen that type of tugging and pulling on a horse at Saturday night
jackpot pennings but never at big pennings as those type of horses just dont
win.
If you have a nicely trained horse you dont have to be that good a rider. But
then you dont get a nicely trained horse by being a putz as a trainer.
Bill
Jennifer
Not for long...we're slowly killing ours off.
BTW - does anyone have the subscription info for the eventers list (EVNT-L???
something like that)...when I was gone, my mailbox filled up and I was
automatically unsubscribed.
***Jennifer
"...No matter how big a nation is, it is no stronger than its weakest people,
and as long as you keep a person down, some part of you has to be down there to
hold him down, so it means you cannot soar." - Marian Anderson
J.A.Zanot
In article <kcarroll-200...@blv-pm403-ip85.nwnexus.net>,
kcar...@horse-country.com wrote:
>(AlaTmPnr) wrote:
>> Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics
>all
>> seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse?
>Now why
>> is that?
>
>Train the horse and all you've got is a passenger. Train the rider and
>the
>rest follows.
Yo, Bill, I have to say I agree with Kris about this one. Funny you should
mention this, I think a parallel goes around about the riders in English vs.
the riders of Western in their apparent wish to continue education too. [I'm
sure many will chime in and correct me here.] <g> Western riders want to learn
everything for 'this horse' and end their own riding education when they feel
they "know all they need to know". Heck they know how to stay on a horse, what
is left to learn? The clinics are for "teaching the horse", not them.
English riders tend to go to the clinics thinking they are learning the skills
and not the horse. You can teach an old horse some new tricks, but teach me
how to teach all horses the tricks. So they continue going to more lessons in
a search for personal riding endeavors, many horses come along, many horses
leave, and if they can ride well they can ride them all/better.
Sorry, I am an English rider, so a bias is indeed in place. I wish all riders
would continue learning more as they go down the road. Just 'cause you can sit
on a horse don't mean you do it well, or even correct. MHO.
~Jaz. J.A. Zanot
,;;;,
,;( )_, )~\|
;; / | |\
' ; \; \
ฐคบฐบค.,ธ ธ,.คบฐบคฐคบฐบค.,ธ ธ,.คบ
(remove: zzz, to reply)
R Bishop
"CJ" <le...@qnet.com> wrote:
>That is so true. When I was training dogs, the one thing my instructor
>always told me is that your not training the dogs, your training the
>handlers. The same goes for horses and riders.
That's exactly what Ray Hunt kept saying in his clinic. He was training
the rider, not the horse. And it was obvious it was going right over
the head of a lot of people.
Sue
>
>Cara
>Kris Carroll <kcar...@horse-country.com> wrote in message
>news:kcarroll-200...@blv-pm403-ip85.nwnexus.net...
>> (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
>> > Just an observation here .... have you noticed that the English clinics
>all
>> > seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse?
>Now why
>> > is that?
>>
>> Train the horse and all you've got is a passenger. Train the rider and the
>> rest follows.
>>
>> Kris C
>
>
Official Secretary of OSGSL
"All empty souls tend to extreme opinions."
William Butler Yeats
Madeline Rockwell
AlaTmPnr <alat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990920214325...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
>
> Hmmm is that why you see so many horses in elevator bits with figure 8's
and
> standing martingales in english?
>
equipment, when most western horses go in curbs. Whenever the task demands
precision, whether it be reining or GP dressage of Show jumping, you start
to see the heavy iron.
Of course, when you get to the very top of the competence food chain-
involving the highest speeds, the most solid and substantial fences, and the
least tolerance for error- you see pretty much plain snaffles all around,
with the occasional figure eight. ( We're talking Grand National and
Maryland Hunt Cup, here.)
madeline
(anticipating Madeline Flambé)
AlaTmPnr
>Seems funny to me that the English riders are getting called for heavy
equipment, when most western horses go in curbs.
But with what kind of contact? How much of a loop is there in the western rein
compared to the English rein? There is a difference .... the western horse is
generally trained to go on a whisper.
> Whenever the task demands
precision, whether it be reining or GP dressage of Show jumping, you start
to see the heavy iron.
Sure but you dont see the pulling an tugging in western that is seen at the
Rollex or the Olympics with the jumpers. The reason you wont see it is because
it reflects a lack of control.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>Sorry, I am an English rider, so a bias is indeed in place. I wish all riders
would continue learning more as they go down the road.
Me too and so does the horse.
> Just 'cause you can sit
on a horse don't mean you do it well, or even correct. MHO
No argument.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>That's exactly what Ray Hunt kept saying in his clinic. He was training
the rider, not the horse. And it was obvious it was going right over
the head of a lot of people.
Yes I understand but the difference was he was training the rider to train the
horse while the english riders are being trained to ride the horse not train
the horse. There is a distinct difference ...... you may be able to ride the
horse but you certainly dont know how to train it.
It is the difference between a mechanic's school and a drivers's school IMO.
One can fix and drive and the other simply drives. I will make an exception in
the case of the dressage rider to a point. They are training but sometimes
they forget there is a horse involved.
JMO
Bill
robf...@my-deja.com
"Natalie A Morris" <natalie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I ride western, so I am always looking more at the western end of
riding
> than english, so my question may just be because I not as involved
with
> english riding (though when I can afford it I want to take dessage
lessons)
>
question
> is most of the "Big Name" trainers like John Lyonns, Pony Boy, and
even
> Monty Roberts all seem to be "western" riders.
>
> Is this true or is it just because I look for the western that I find
the
> western?
I think you're just seeing the trappings. The techniques of the
reputable "big names" (maybe a contradiction in terms, I don't know)
should apply to anyone working with horses, regardless of the
discipline.
Which is what these "big names" are teaching, with varying degrees of
honesty and success: techniques for communicating with and training the
horse.
>
> I have seen lots of english trainers, and in fact there seem to be
many more
> english trainers than western in our area, and I have seen
demonstrations by
> english riders but they just don't seem to be the same kind of "Big
Names".
PR. And also the prevalent style in the area under discussion. In
Alpharetta (north of Atlanta) there are more English, dressage, and
eventing clinics. In the area east of Atlanta, where I live, there are
more Western clinics.
Now, as far as which discipline is "superior" in terms of the result: a
trained horse with a passenger or a trained rider on a bundle of
nerves, I think that's too simplistic. A person takes away from a
clinic exactly what they choose to take away. Even though I was trained
Western, I'll go to English clinics, dressage clinics, any old clinic,
just on the off chance I'll find something I can use that will either
improve my horse or improve my riding.
I happen to believe that the horse and rider are a package, and neither
can excel if either is lacking in training....
--
Lorri
Scratchbottom Shires and Spots
http://www.geocities.com/scratchbottom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bella
alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> Hmmm is that why you see so many horses in elevator bits with figure
> 8's and standing martingales in english?
>
could argue that some western trainers also use their gadjets and
gimmicks. It is harder, however, to evaluate other horse disciplines
that the one you are in.
You mention some of the english *bad* training devices but there are
also some western ones... Like the western version of draw reins, or
some of those western bits with 8" shanks, or those "don't f*** with me
spurs" that I see some of them wearing. It's all a matter of
perspective :) You are more apt to know what is *bad* in your own
discipline.
--
Bella...
"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want"
Bella
alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> But with what kind of contact? How much of a loop is there in
> the western rein compared to the English rein? There is a
> difference .... the western horse is generally trained to go
> on a whisper.
If that is the case, then why use that type of bit? AND because of the
leverage amount of some of those bits you had *better* be whispering!
> Sure but you dont see the pulling an tugging in western that is
> seen at the Rollex or the Olympics with the jumpers. The
> reason you wont see it is because it reflects a lack of control.
>
I'm sorry Bill, but I have seen pulling and tugging on western horses in
curb bits. It is usually done at home and in private. And since the
bits are so strong, just taking out the slack has a considerable
locking effect on the horse's jaw.
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>But with what kind of contact? How much of a loop is there in the western
>rein compared to the English rein? There is a difference .... the western
>horse is generally trained to go on a whisper.
And you think the English horse doesn't? Just because there is no slack in the
reins doesn't mean that there is any more movement in the horse's mouth, and
that's what's counting after all. I'm not talking about the pull brigade, just
as you aren't talking about the strong jerks bad western riders are giving.
>Sure but you dont see the pulling an tugging in western that is seen at the
>Rollex or the Olympics with the jumpers. The reason you wont see it is
>because it reflects a lack of control.
I've seen enough gaping mouths and high-flying heads in Western to contest that
statement. English riders in general seem to be more inclined towards a steady
pull, while western riders in the same situation will give a quick jerk on the
reins - but I can't say I prefer one over the other, and the result (hollowing,
bracing) is the same.
Catja
and Billy
Brittany Pledger
seem to focus on the rider and the western clinics focus on the horse? Now why
is that?
Bill
>>
Not so in the big name clinics *I've* attended. The horse being supple and in
proper balance is of the utmost importance, ESPECIALLY in Dressage. How many
english clinics have YOU beeen to recently?
XOXO Brittany Loves Cascadeur XOXO
Hunter's Sound, Fort Myers, Florida
To be loved by a horse or any animal, should fill us with awe-for we
have not deserved it.
~Marion C Garretty
Brittany Pledger
Flash and dropped nosebands are preffered for jumpers. Ditto for Dressage.
Hunter classes do not allow them. A larger bit does not necessarily mean
anything when used in the properly trained hand. Rash generalizations here,
Bill...
<<trying to do the best that they can.
These little girls will go to bigger bits and more paraphenalia than you can
find in an Army surplus store >> ROFL!!!
<<If you have a nicely trained horse you dont have to be that good a rider.>>
Not So! Rash Generalization. You can have a fabulous horse that does Grand Prix
level Dressage, but if the rider can not keep him in a frame, he will not fare
well in competition. Same goes for classes offerred over large fences. If the
rider can not shift his center of gravity in sync with that of his horse to aid
him, there is likely to be refusals and crashes...
Brittany Pledger
precision, whether it be reining or GP dressage of Show jumping, you start
to see the heavy iron.
Of course, when you get to the very top of the competence food chain-
involving the highest speeds, the most solid and substantial fences, and the
least tolerance for error- you see pretty much plain snaffles all around,
with the occasional figure eight. ( We're talking Grand National and
Maryland Hunt Cup, here.)
madeline
(anticipating Madeline Flambé)
>>
You said it sister!!!
The "English" Bit of choice is a snaffle, whereas the most popular "Western"
bit is a curb. Our western horses all go in Loose-ring snaffles. We don't even
OWN a curb bit...
AlaTmPnr
>I've seen enough gaping mouths and high-flying heads in Western to contest
that statement.
Circumstances and the supposed expertise of the rider please? Im talking about
supposedly elite riders and I suspect you are referring to Bubba from down the
street. In a show setting where points count for a relaxed and willing horse
then you arent going to see that while at the Rollex and the Olympics you do.
> English riders in general seem to be more inclined towards a steady
pull,
Yes why is that? Why arent you releasing instead of living in the horse's
mouth?
>while western riders in the same situation will give a quick jerk on the reins
-
Trust me, this is more humane than living in the horse's mouth and making them
heavy on the forehand. At least the horse gets release.
>but I can't say I prefer one over the other,
The horse doesnt care what your preferences are and you should be more worried
what its preferences are.
>and the result (hollowing, bracing) is the same.
Hmmm then you are describing something different ..... bumping a horse shouldnt
make it hollow .... now yanking its mouth off its face will get that reaction.
But simple bumping shouldnt. La Viva Loca in the horse's mouth with no release
definitely that is why a figure 8 is an English invention.
Bill
Bill Kambic
wrote:
>Bill wrote:
>
>>But with what kind of contact? How much of a loop is there in the western
>>rein compared to the English rein? There is a difference .... the western
>>horse is generally trained to go on a whisper.
>
>And you think the English horse doesn't? Just because there is no slack in the
>reins doesn't mean that there is any more movement in the horse's mouth, and
>that's what's counting after all. I'm not talking about the pull brigade, just
>as you aren't talking about the strong jerks bad western riders are giving.
The difference does not seem so much to be Western vs. English but
level of "contact." I have started messing in the dressage world and
do not like a lot of what I see. To many riders (and clinicians and
trainers and intructors) "contact" seems to mean "pull that sucker's
head back into the frame." This might not be what they SAY, but is is
damn sure what a lot DO. And this is what the judges REWARD. The
terms "lightness" and "responsiveness" do not cross my mind as I
observe.
This is not to say that the "kick and jerk" school of equitation is
not alive and well in the Western world. Or that shank length is not
used as a substitute for training and rider skill.
>>Sure but you dont see the pulling an tugging in western that is seen at the
>>Rollex or the Olympics with the jumpers. The reason you wont see it is
>>because it reflects a lack of control.
>
>I've seen enough gaping mouths and high-flying heads in Western to contest that
>statement. English riders in general seem to be more inclined towards a steady
>pull, while western riders in the same situation will give a quick jerk on the
>reins - but I can't say I prefer one over the other, and the result (hollowing,
>bracing) is the same.
I agree on English riders and steady pull. What I do not agree to is
that "steady pull" is a Good Thing. My instructor demands that I
"feel" the mouth, but I will surely hear about it if that "felling"
degenerates into "pull." She also constantly demands correct leg and
body position, reinforceing the idea that the reins are there
primarily to control the nose, and the seat and legs control
everything else. When I shift over to a Western saddle, I keep that
English bridle and try to take the lessons on body position, cueing,
and correct "feel" along with me.
Since I do not feel that I have "educated" my hands sufficiently, I do
not use curb bits, even in Western riding. It is my understanding,
though, that the properly trained Western horse has extensive bosal,
snaffle, or hackamore (or some combination thereof) training BEFORE
the curb bit is used, and that the curb is ridden on a loose rein.
Again, the reins control the nose and the seat and body and legs
control everything else. So maybe there is not as much difference as
purists on both sides of the question claim.
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>>I've seen enough gaping mouths and high-flying heads in Western to contest
>>that statement.
>
>Circumstances and the supposed expertise of the rider please? Im talking
>about supposedly elite riders and I suspect you are referring to Bubba from
>down the street. In a show setting where points count for a relaxed and
>willing horse then you arent going to see that while at the Rollex and the
>Olympics you do.
'Bubba from down the street' is called Dai Evans and has a Welsh Cob.
I was referring to the many action shots I've seen from high-level shows
printed in German magazines. (Some from Germany, some from the States.) That
sort of resistance exists in both styles of riding.
>>English riders in general seem to be more inclined towards a steady
>>pull,
>
>Yes why is that? Why arent you releasing instead of living in the horse's
>mouth?
I said 'in general' and 'seem to be inclined'
Nowhere does it say that *I* pull, or advocate pulling.
>>while western riders in the same situation will give a quick jerk on the
>>reins
>-
>
>Trust me, this is more humane than living in the horse's mouth and making them
>heavy on the forehand. At least the horse gets release.
Given that those bits are designed to be ridden with the utmost finesse, their
misuse is a lot more severe than the misuse of a thick snaffle or english curb
with thick mouthpiece and short shanks.
Most horses find it fairly easy to shut down to steady pressure on the reins.
The sharp jerk, however, is something a horse will be weary off if it happens
once. I don't think that comes under the heading of 'release'
>>but I can't say I prefer one over the other,
>
>The horse doesnt care what your preferences are and you should be more worried
>what its preferences are.
If you ask the horse, it tells you 'neither.'
>>and the result (hollowing, bracing) is the same.
>
>Hmmm then you are describing something different ..... bumping a horse
>shouldnt make it hollow ....
Oh, really? I've yet to see a horse who wouldn't react by either hollowing or
dropping behind the bit in an effort to escape the resulting pain. If you
expect your horse to continue moving calmly when it is 'bumped' in the mouth
(why not say jerked?) then I don't know what you're training.
Catja
and Billy
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>The difference does not seem so much to be Western vs. English but
>level of "contact." I have started messing in the dressage world and
>do not like a lot of what I see.
Join the club. The classical contact is a feel of the mouth, with a following
hand. It gets interpreted as 'grab hold of the rein and never let go' - I even
had the owner of a particularly ill-educated specimen tell me in a motherly
voice 'you know, if you ever want to ride a horse on the bit, you must never
ride him on a long rein in the middle of the lesson.'
>To many riders (and clinicians and
>trainers and intructors) "contact" seems to mean "pull that sucker's
>head back into the frame." This might not be what they SAY, but is is
>damn sure what a lot DO. And this is what the judges REWARD.
The judges give marks for correct execution of movements - if the circle is
round and in an even tempo, they *must* give good marks for it, even if the
horse's head is on its chest. They can take off marks in the collectives, and
mark the rider down if the horse's gaits are shortened, without impulsion, etc
- but they are not there to mark the artistic quality of the work.
>The terms "lightness" and "responsiveness" do not cross my mind as I
>observe.
Sad, isn't it? There are a very few, even in the competitive world, who *do*
produce what I consider the ideal - and many more who have severe reading
disabilities, hear a tiny piece of advice given in a particular situation, and
think this is the universal solution for every horse.
>I agree on English riders and steady pull. What I do not agree to is
>that "steady pull" is a Good Thing.
Of course it isn't! I was just pointing out that, if ill-educated and under
stress to control the horse, English riders seemed to react differently to
Western riders.
>Since I do not feel that I have "educated" my hands sufficiently, I do
>not use curb bits, even in Western riding.
Neither do I. I've ridden in a double bridle, it's no big deal - but if there
is an advantage to using one, I'm not in the position to judge which horse
might profit from it, nor do I have the ability to do so.
>It is my understanding,
>though, that the properly trained Western horse has extensive bosal,
>snaffle, or hackamore (or some combination thereof) training BEFORE
>the curb bit is used, and that the curb is ridden on a loose rein.
>Again, the reins control the nose and the seat and body and legs
>control everything else. So maybe there is not as much difference as
>purists on both sides of the question claim.
Well, there *is* the big hats, and the boots, and the silver on the saddle <G>
On the whole, I think that good riding is good riding, full stop. I'd rather
recommend someone take lessons with a good western trainer, than a bad English
one (like Joyce did), although my personal preference is for dressage.
Catja
AlaTmPnr
>'Bubba from down the street' is called Dai Evans and has a Welsh Cob.
Okay and what was Bubba doing that had the horse gaping its mouth?
>I was referring to the many action shots I've seen from high-level shows
printed in German magazines. (Some from Germany, some from the States.) That
sort of resistance exists in both styles of riding.
Again what was the activity? Still shots are not an accurate indicator of how
a horse is ridden. I am still referring to elite English events here in the
states not some podunk backyard penning. Try cutting and reining or even
western pleasure where the horse is judged on its abilities to go collected and
relaxed. Try the bigger pennings where a resistant horse is not going to win.
Try barrel racing ..... all these horses if properly rode and trained go
without having to be hammered on like I see at the bigger English events. To
y'all rideable has a whole different meaning from what I consider rideable.
When you have a chargey horse .... you call it forward ... we are talking
apples and oranges..
Bill
Adrienne Regard
>and
>> standing martingales in english?
>Seems funny to me that the English riders are getting called for heavy
>equipment, when most western horses go in curbs.
Oh, don't stop there -- you also see curb bits with very low running
martingales (go figure?) and wire tie downs holding the horses head to it's
knees. Not to mention 6 inch shanks.
I think that both AlaTmPnr and I are speaking of the idiots of each
discipline, though. Both English and Western have their heavy metal
components.
Adrienne Regard
AlaTmPnr
>Since I do not feel that I have "educated" my hands sufficiently, I do not use
curb bits, even in Western riding.
Good for you.
>It is my understanding, though, that the properly trained Western horse has
extensive bosal, snaffle, or hackamore (or some combination thereof) training
BEFORE the curb bit is used, and that the curb is ridden on a loose rein.
Technically, the horse should go in a 4 rein set up prior to going straight up
in the bridle. This is a combo of the bosal/curb with the corrections being
given by the bosal. Some trainers like to interim bits such as the argentine
broke mouth or a similar type bit. Some horses never get past this bit.
>Again, the reins control the nose and the seat and body and legs control
everything else. So maybe there is not as much difference as purists on both
sides of the question claim.
A good way to check to see how much rein you are using is to drop the bridle
and see how much control you have. I do this regularly with certain of my
horses. This tunes my seat and legs and gives me a gauge to see if I need to
strengthen my aids. It also will tell how accepting your horse is of your
aids. If you get cocky try this LOL it can humble you rather quickly.
Bill
Adrienne Regard
Jennifer wrote in message <19990920231952...@ng-fm1.aol.com>...
>>No, just very uninformed. There are big names in dressage, showjumping,
>>***eventing***
>Not for long...we're slowly killing ours off.
>BTW - does anyone have the subscription info for the eventers list
(EVNT-L???
>something like that)...when I was gone, my mailbox filled up and I was
>automatically unsubscribed.
send email to 'list...@listserv.indiana.edu'
with a message that reads (NOT a subject line, a message):
Subscribe Eventers-L Firstname Lastname
Adrienne Regard
AlaTmPnr
>You said it sister!!!
The "English" Bit of choice is a snaffle, whereas the most popular "Western"
bit is a curb. Our western horses all go in Loose-ring snaffles. We don't even
OWN a curb bit...
Brittany now dont let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird ass LOL.
There would be a reason why you dont own a curb LOL it requires competence to
use it. You might want to point out that the "western horses" mentioned are not
yours and are not shown. At 5yo most western type horses are required to work
in a curb. This is regardless of class. Trailriding for fun is not considered
competitive and the knowledge to do so does not constitute being a competent
horseman. That may be why you have a barn manager ... to save you from
yourself.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
I wrote><<Hmmm is that why you see so many horses in elevator bits with figure
8's and standing martingales in english?>>
Brittany confirming all I said but takes exception to me including hunters
wrote:>>Typically eventers mostly use figure 8's. Flash and dropped nosebands
are preffered for jumpers. Ditto for Dressage. Hunter classes do not allow
them. A larger bit does not necessarily mean anything when used in the properly
trained hand.
True except when the bigger bit is used in place of training. Got a chargey
horse and cant rate it ...... put a gag bit in and you will get it back and
listening because you are hurting the horse. You havent trained shit but you
have the horse coming back to you. You havent addressed a damn thing just
overrode the horse to get a desired result. You resemble the type of rider I
am talking about.
>>Rash generalizations here
No generalization LOL. And certainly nothing rash about it LOL.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
writes:
I wrote:><<If you have a nicely trained horse you dont have to be that good a
rider.>>
Brittany who just discovered what Rash Generalization means wrote:>>Not So!
Rash Generalization.
How so? I know of plenty of horses that are trained to go well and as long as
the horse is not interfered with does quite well. In the English world they
are called "packers" and in the western world they are WP horses trained to the
spur stop. You dont have to be any sort of horseman to do well ... just look
at the Amateurs at the World in whatever breed or the Indoors in the novice
classes.
>>You can have a fabulous horse that does Grand Prix level Dressage, but if the
rider can not keep him in a frame, he will not fare well in competition.
Depends on the level being competed in does it not? Not everyone is going to
compete at the top levels ... or is even capable of it but they do quite nicely
at lower levels and being a big frog in a small pond is sometimes enough.
>Same goes for classes offerred over large fences. If the rider can not shift
his center of gravity in sync with that of his horse to aid him, there is
likely to be refusals and crashes...
Yes that is why there have been so many deaths lately in the top ranks ....
because of their incompetence?? Thats why crashes are routine at that level of
competition?
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>Not so in the big name clinics *I've* attended. The horse being supple and in
proper balance is of the utmost importance, ESPECIALLY in Dressage. How many
english clinics have YOU beeen to recently?
Probably about the same amount as the western clinics that you have
attended.(Monty Roberts doesnt count)
Bill
Adrienne Regard
AlaTmPnr wrote in message <19990921113130...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
>There would be a reason why you dont own a curb LOL it requires >competence
to use it
Hmm, yet we note that English riders spend more attention on rider training,
and western riders less. "Competence" must come from the grocery store.
Adrienne Regard
AlaTmPnr
>Hmm, yet we note that English riders spend more attention on rider training,
and western riders less. "Competence" must come from the grocery store.
Yes I am sure .... can you tell what aisle you got yours in?
Bill
Kris Carroll
>competence to use it
Are you claming western riders are more competent? How did they get that
way without training? And how come it doesn't show in the vast majority of
wetern riders?
To me the difference between W-E is like the difference between a manual
and automatic transition on a car. Any dolt can drive/ride western. It
takes some skill and effort to ride english disciplines.
But fact is, you're trolling or in desparate for attention. Either way - Yawn.
KC.
AlaTmPnr
>I happen to believe that the horse and rider are a package, and neither
can excel if either is lacking in training....
Agreed. I have no problems with english clinics when available .... I like to
learn ... even if it how not to do something.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>Are you claming western riders are more competent?
Nope ..... just commenting on that particular poster's proficiency. But if you
want me to comment to your proficiency I can LOL.
>How did they get that way without training? And how come it doesn't show in
the vast majority of wetern riders?
Because like your spellcheck they dont use it.
Most western riders are home taught sort of like learning how to swim ... they
are taught some rudimentary strokes and tossed into the deep end.
There are those western riders that take the time to learn properly from either
a knowledgeable horseman that they meticulously ape or they sometimes pay
someone to train them and others train themselves by taping their riding and
critically examine the tape for flaws.
To be a trainer however, results seem to be the qualification for hanging out
a shingle as a trainer .. however no results no clientele. Certification means
nothing in the western world.
Im not saying that western riders are more competent but I also dont agree that
the majority of the english riders are anymore competent because of their
education. After all a shitty education is still a shitty education.
The original question is why does the english side only train the rider and not
include the horse and your snippish answer was a trained rider can ride an
untrained horse..... that may be so but unless they understand horse training
they are not training the horse all they are doing is forcing the horse into
compliance re: martingales, figure 8's and dropped nosebands.... items you wont
find in western gear.
Back to square one.
Bill
Meghan Noecker
I'm into dressage, so that may leave me biased, but I consider
training to be going during lessons. In other words, the
trainer/instructor is having the rider doing most of the actual
training of the horse. So the rider IS learning to train the horse.
Obviously, this is different of the rider buys an already trained
horse.
I've always had the impression that training of the horse MUST include
training of the rider. What good is a well trained horse if the owner
just messes up the horse with bad riding and inconsistent behavior?
As the horse advances, the rider must be learning (to ride better as
well as train the horse to advance) unless they are buying a horse
already trained or sending it out.
When I first read your post on this subject, I took it as English
being better BECAUSE we focus on training ourselves. I thought you
meant that western riders were expecting the horse to do everything
and just be passengers. I see now, that you were thinking the western
clinics were better because of focusing on the horse. But before the
explanation, I saw it as a compliment for english riders.
I do think we need to train both, but I see all the reviews of MR and
he seems to focus on instant changes of the horse and does NO training
whatsoever of the rider. So nothing ever changes since the rider has
learned nothing. That kind of training is useless. The horse may
behave properly with a good trainer/handler, but that doesn't help the
newbie that paid for the clinic. I think a lot of people go to clinics
thinking something is wrong with their horse (he kicks, he bites, he
won't stand still, etc) and they focus on the horse and NOT their own
behavior which is causing the problem. They see it fixed at the clinic
and go home not knowing why the horse behaved better, only to have the
same problem again.
Meghan
Friesians in the Northwest
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Kris Carroll
Pushed a few of your buttons did I? Good. You asked for it.
>Im not saying that western riders are more competent but I also dont agree that
> the majority of the english riders are anymore competent because of their
> education. After all a shitty education is still a shitty education.
Cheap, off the cuff remark by a cheap, off the cuff kinda guy.
> The original question is why does the english side only train the rider andnot
> include the horse and your snippish answer was a trained rider can ride an
> untrained horse.....
What's to train? - a horse can either jump or it can't. The rider can
facilitate that or muck it up. Ditto dressage and so on. Plenty of
individuals try to make silk purses out of sows' ear, but that isn't
limited to english disciplines. And I suspect you know more about that
than most.
> that may be so but unless they understand horse training
Under saddle is under saddle. Do it correctly and the horse comes right
and learns. Western riders don't have lock on training horses. Maybe they
steer clear of claiming to teach riding skills because most don't have
any.
> they are not training the horse all they are doing is forcing the horse into
They who? that big strawman in the corner?
> compliance re: martingales, figure 8's and dropped nosebands..items you wont
> find in western gear.
Bullshit and more bullshit claiming everyone uses this tack. As if that
sofa saddle and rank bit you ride in don't interfer with a horse's way of
going...just for show. Or are you working cattle these days? LOL
KC
Madeline Rockwell
> >Same goes for classes offerred over large fences. If the rider can not
shift
> his center of gravity in sync with that of his horse to aid him, there is
> likely to be refusals and crashes...
>
> Yes that is why there have been so many deaths lately in the top ranks
....
> because of their incompetence?? Thats why crashes are routine at that
level of
> competition?
>
Bill. you're doing the equivalent of confusing reining and barrrel racing.
The current rash of deaths has been in upper level eventing- cross country,
solid fences but not very big. When someone is referring to "over LARGE
fences", they're talking GP level show jumping. The fences are on more level
ground, loose but a foot and then some larger. Two pretty much entirely
different sports. You see quite a bit of "big iron" on the jumpers because
you need precise and instant adjustments. The riders have walked the courses
and know the distances between the fences abd what they have to do to fit
their horse's stride in appropriately.. The riders also have jumped a lot
more fences than the horses. The horses must be instantly adjustable. Some
go in snaffles, some go in more serious bits. The key is to find the tool
that will provide the accuracy needed when facing a course of 15 or so very
large fences within relatively tight time-allowed on a very fit and bold
horse.
I suspect that most of these upper level horses do most of their schooling
in plain snaffles, but when the chips are down, the power brakes and
turbocharge have to be there.
Sure, you hate to see doofi wearing severe bits because that's what they see
on TV, but it gives me the same angst to see novices on western horses in
curb bits. And all the novices I see in western tack have curbs...
madeline
Brittany Pledger
can excel if either is lacking in training....
>>
Very WEll Said!!! :)
Brittany Pledger
attended.(Monty Roberts doesnt count)
Bill>>
I attend any clinic I can. Regardless of Discipline. John Lyons and Richard
Shrake included. Do those count, shitkicker?
Brittany Pledger
overrode the horse to get a desired result. You resemble the type of rider I
am talking about.
>>
Is that so? You have reached this conclusion over the internet? ROFL. My horses
ALL go in Large Snaffles, either O rings or eggbutts.
Bill, I can't resist...
Your problems are not generally germane...
Brittany Pledger
apples and oranges..
Bill>>
Huh? What planet are YOU from? When I have a chargey horse, I call it wild.
Forward means in front of the leg, but controllable...
Brittany Pledger
Dressage, but if the
rider can not keep him in a frame, he will not fare well in competition.
Bill the Alabama Shitkicker...Depends on the level being competed in does it
not? Not everyone is going to
compete at the top levels ... or is even capable of it but they do quite nicely
at lower levels and being a big frog in a small pond is sometimes enough.>>
Brittany writes...Like being 1st out of 1??? ROFL!!! WE are discussing
competing. I don't consider a backyard schooling show *true* competition,
though it certainly does have its place where weekend riders and kids are
concerned.
Bill ,with his other brother Darryl, spews ignorance<<Yes that is why there
have been so many deaths lately in the top ranks ....
because of their incompetence?? Thats why crashes are routine at that level of
competition?
Bill>>
They are called ACCIDENTS, Bill. Mistakes that were largely split second rider
errors, not complete incompetence....
AlaTmPnr
>I'm into dressage, so that may leave me biased, but I consider training to be
going during lessons. In other words, the
trainer/instructor is having the rider doing most of the actual training of the
horse. So the rider IS learning to train the horse.
Okay I will accept that. I dont agree with it but I will accept that is how
y'all approach it. But how can an inexperienced rider teach advanced moves to
a horse unless that rider has already learned what the result feels like?
Sounds like green on green to me and it doesnt work well. I tried three
different approaches to get my colt to spin ..... a novice just doesnt have
those tools and most people cant afford to have a trainer there everytime a
saddle goes on the horse.
>Obviously, this is different of the rider buys an already trained horse.
Sure ..... the rider may not be up to the standards the horse was trained to
but it is easier to train a rider on a trained horse rather than a green horse.
Green on green is like the blind leading the blind LOL.
>I've always had the impression that training of the horse MUST include
training of the rider. What good is a well trained horse if the owner just
messes up the horse with bad riding and inconsistent behavior?
A bad rider can detune a trained horse but not mess him up like he can a green
horse.
>As the horse advances, the rider must be learning (to ride better as well as
train the horse to advance)
See now is where we part company .. the rider has to be ahead of the horse
otherwise he cannot train the horse in advanced moves as he doesnt know how to
do it. The government uses OJT (On the Job Training) it sucks there too. You
lose something in the exchange of information and you only learn limited
skills. The rider should be taught on a schoolmaster and then ride numerous
horses to hone their skills before ever learning how to train a horse.
>unless they are buying a horse
already trained or sending it out.
Still no guarantee the rider will be able to ride at the level of the horse.
>When I first read your post on this subject, I took it as English being better
BECAUSE we focus on training ourselves. I thought you meant that western riders
were expecting the horse to do everything
and just be passengers. I see now, that you were thinking the western clinics
were better because of focusing on the horse. But before the explanation, I saw
it as a compliment for english riders.
Hehehe that happens alot.
>I do think we need to train both, but I see all the reviews of MR and he seems
to focus on instant changes of the horse and does NO training whatsoever of the
rider. So nothing ever changes since the rider has learned nothing. That kind
of training is useless.
Exactly.
>The horse may behave properly with a good trainer/handler, but that doesn't
help the newbie that paid for the clinic. I think a lot of people go to clinics
thinking something is wrong with their horse (he kicks, he bites, he won't
stand still, etc) and they focus on the horse and NOT their own behavior which
is causing the problem.
Agreed.
>They see it fixed at the clinic
and go home not knowing why the horse behaved better, only to have the
same problem again.
Again agreed. That is why folks like Sylvana will spend the national deficit
following certain clinicians. They think they learn something during each
clinic so this justifies their attendance. In most cases they are better
served thinking about what is happening and set up building block instruction
to get the point across the easiest way the horse will learn.
JMO
Bill
ghostwalker
alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> Kris Carroll nonchalantly proclaims:
> >What's to train? - a horse can either jump or it
> can't. The rider can
> facilitate that or muck it up. Ditto dressage and so
> on.
> >Plenty of individuals try to make silk purses out of
> sows' ear, but that isn't
> limited to english disciplines.
> make it one discipline
> due either to the overconfidence of the original owner
> or their ignorance.
> > And I suspect you know more about that
> than most.
> purposes. I dont try to make a
> silk purse out of a sow's ear but I do attempt to make
> good pigskin purses.
> Bill
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Dan Strickland
training of the horse.When it comes to the training of my
horse i dont mind learning in a group setting,but when it
comes to my training to improve my riding skills i want
that to be one on one.I guess it comes down to i can learn
the techniques to train a horse by seeing but to learn the
techniques of riding i need to feel
DAN STRICKLAND
Preserving the ledgend
American Baskir Curlies
Kris Carroll
> Want to compare death rates in western eventing to english eventing?
I wouldn't blame the horse, trainer or rider for these deaths. Except the
part about chosing to participate in poorly designed cross country
courses.
And it seems they're thinking of solving the problem with collapsable
fences. In which case they can move them to indoor venues and call them
... hunters. Ya think?
Kris C.
Kris Carroll
> This is where we are looking at apples and oranges ..... the bit is for
> communication. The horse when carrying that much iron should feel a whisper
> ..... but if the rider is good then he should be riding strictly off the seat
> and the legs .... the big bit should only set the head if it is built for the
> horse. The stop, turns, etc all should be coming from the seat and the legs
> and a fraction of an inch of movement from the reins should enhance what the
> seat and legs are asking for.
You've never felt the absolute lightness of real contact - which does
comes from riding off the seat. You have a total disconnect built into
your tack.
> talking about clueless folks that think
> they know something.
Yep.
KC
AlaTmPnr
SRohan6154
jump...@aol.comNOSPAM (Brittany Pledger) writes:
>XOXO Brittany Loves Cascadeur XOXO
>Hunter's Sound, Fort Myers, Florida
May I ask how old you are?
Stacy Rohan
"Leis gach deagh dhurachad" -I can learn to resist anything but temptation...
Brittany Pledger
I am 25... :)
XOXO Brittany Loves Cascadeur XOXO
Hunter's Sound, Fort Myers, Florida
To be loved by a horse or any animal, should fill us with awe-for we
AlaTmPnr
>Huh? What planet are YOU from? When I have a chargey horse, I call it wild.
Forward means in front of the leg, but controllable...
Controllable compared to what? You didnt die or the horse was coming back to
you and remaining calm and willing?
Bill
Phylosophy
>Most horses find it fairly easy to shut down to steady pressure on the reins.
>The sharp jerk, however, is something a horse will be weary off if it happens
>once. I don't think that comes under the heading of 'release'
I think you might be saying that you don't agree
with either of these reining methods. Nor does
John Lyons, among others. His advice is to pull
then release ("pull" does not = YANK, just make contact)
as a *SIGNAL* to the horse. It doesn't take an expert to
see that bits and reins aren't for holding the horse back
or FORCING him to do this or that, but rather as one
of the cues you give him so that he knows what
you want him to do. Keeping light contact on the bit
might be helpful/necessary in some types of riding
that require lots of cue changes (dressage maybe?)
but I see people regularly jerking, yanking, and tugging
horses's heads around like they were pulltoys. I don't
ride much nor have I lived all my life with horses, but
even I know this is not right.
My daughter tries to ride her horse with as little rein
as possible, and he reacts by learning what she wants
pretty quickly and responding well. In the arena she
usually rides with English tack and a snaffle. Now, when
she rides him outside the arena on the straightaway, she
likes to gallop sometimes. Being the careful kid she is,
she tacks him western for this kind of riding, since she
still has the old curb bit on his western bridle.
She says she still isn't sure that he will always want
to stop when she wants him to, even though she has
*never* had that particular problem with him in either
type of bit. Yet, she is a very cautious type, and
while she doesn't pull on the bit, she wants to have a
sharper message available *just in case*. And she is
practicing the one rein stop as well. Told you she was
cautious. :)
Phyllis
AlaTmPnr
>I attend any clinic I can. Regardless of Discipline. John Lyons and Richard
Shrake included. Do those count, shitkicker?
Aaargh! A shitkicker .... ROFL ... I resemble that remark ... if you had said
goatroper or some other snide remark it may not have been true.
Richard Shrake uh? What do you think of the Rhythm Collector?
What do you like or dont like about it?
Bill
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>They are called ACCIDENTS, Bill. Mistakes that were largely split second rider
errors, not complete incompetence....
Want to compare death rates in western eventing to english eventing? Rodeos
dont count especially bullriding.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
Thanks for the correction on my mistakenly thinking that eventing and big
fences were the same.
>Sure, you hate to see doofi wearing severe bits because that's what they see
on TV, but it gives me the same angst to see novices on western horses in
curb bits. And all the novices I see in western tack have curbs...
The differences between a dufie from english with iron and a western dufie with
iron is the slack in the reins .... in show conditions.
Now every day dufiests with their mechanical hacks(whether english or western)
thinking that they are doing their horse a favor are another thing. No iron
involved but the mechanical hack is capable of more damage.
Bill
Brittany Pledger
What do you like or dont like about it?
Bill>>
Funny you should ask, Truthfully, I am not interested in the use of artificial
gimmicks for training purposes.
Brittany Pledger
Bill, using up valuable bandwidth for a silly, inept argujment over the
poster's definition of a horse being properly controlled. Bill, I've taken the
liberty to look the definition of controlled up for you, as I am aware that you
lack the intelligence to do so for yourself...
control [2] (noun)
often attributive
First appeared 1590
1 a : an act or instance of controlling; also : power or authority to guide or
manage
b : skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium
c : the regulation of economic activity esp. by government directive -- usu.
used in pl. <price ~s>
2 : RESTRAINT, RESERVE
3 : one that controls: as
a (1) : an experiment in which the subjects are treated as in a parallel
experiment except for omission of the procedure or agent under test and which
is used as a standard of comparison in judging experimental effects -- called
also control experiment
(2) : one (as an organism, culture, or group) that is part of a control
b : a device or mechanism used to regulate or guide the operation of a
machine, apparatus, or system
c : an organization that directs a spaceflight <mission ~>
d : a personality or spirit believed to actuate the utterances or
performances of a spiritualist medium
synonym see POWER
Brittany Pledger
dont count especially bullriding.
Bill
>>
Clem, Who says Rodeos don't count? That is equivalent to saying Western vs.
English, but Jumping event's don't count... you are a riot!!!
Phylosophy
>Yes I understand but the difference was he was training the rider to train the
>horse while the english riders are being trained to ride the horse not train
>the horse. There is a distinct difference ...... you may be able to ride the
>horse but you certainly dont know how to train it.
The apparent difference between English and western
here is a generalization based on statistics perhaps,
but says nothing against a *type of riding* in particular.
And I am not implying that you mean it to.. I am sure
you don't. In our area most places doing H/J and
other English riding instruction DO just work on the
rider and pretty much ignore the horse. They assume
everyone involved will have already bought a topnotch
previously trained horse for their lessons, or will use
one of the school's trained horses. But surely someone
somewhere must have initially trained those horses,
right? Maybe we don't see them as often as we see
the riding instruction businesses, but they GOTTA be
out there!
Then too maybe a lot of horses are just raised on
ranches where western riding is the style of choice,
so they are broken by these same folks, and that could
be why western is more associated with horse training?
Just a thought. Maybe the English trainers are the guys
who usually buy the 3 year olds from the ranches (and
the tracks, of course) to retrain them for their own
purposes. Makes sense to me.... though there must be
some real stats on the percentage of English vs.western
training going on during early training (breaking etc) of
horses. That could answer the question better than
any of this guessing.
Bottom line is, whether it's English or western style,
the relationship between the horse and rider SHOULD
be paramount. Where or whether this is learned is
really up to the rider, I would think. Some folks who
were raised with horses just figured it out naturally
While others who only ride expensive pretrained horses
might never understand why they should do suchandsuch
and not thisorthat to make their pushbutton horses
perform. They just do what the teacher tells them to
do, then hope they win a ribbon for their trouble.
Phyllis
Dawn Lawson
Phylosophy wrote:
> In the arena she
> usually rides with English tack and a snaffle. Now, when
> she rides him outside the arena on the straightaway, she
> likes to gallop sometimes. Being the careful kid she is,
> she tacks him western for this kind of riding, since she
> still has the old curb bit on his western bridle.
Does she know why she is doing that? If she can't stop him, why is she galloping
him? Why does she think Western tack is gonna make any difference, or that she
can't ride him in a curb with an english saddle. (Refer to my earlier
post..especially unconscious incompetance. She's a kid, so her judgement isn't
matured, but she needs some help)
> She says she still isn't sure that he will always want
> to stop when she wants him to, even though she has
> *never* had that particular problem with him in either
> type of bit. Yet, she is a very cautious type, and
> while she doesn't pull on the bit, she wants to have a
> sharper message available *just in case*.
So the lesson is, if you haven't trained it, force it? Weird. If she doesn't
pull on the bit, why does it matter if she uses a harsher bit?
Why wouldn't she as a cautious rider prefer to train the horse to stop using a
snaffle, and more importantly, her body cues? Why would she as a cautious rider
gallop a horse she isn't confident will stop, and instead use a harsher bit, which
risks other dangers, like the horse whalloping her in the face if he evades the
harshness by throwing his head, or bucking at the sharper message (neither of
which is a rare occurance)
If I were asked to set up a situation where horse or rider would sustain damage or
distress, this would be a pretty good scenario. No kidding. It may not have
happened...yet. But honest, Phyllis, it's not a great idea. Oh, and where are
you when this is happening? You made some posts saying she's supervised, but what
will you do when you see her fall off as she gallops on the straightaway (not sure
what you are referring to with this, it's usually used to describe the straight
long sides of a racetrack....) some distance away? Horses gallop pretty darn
fast, although I suspose she could be cantering, and just not realise the
difference. Still, you won't be able to be there to cushion a potential fall.
Hearing momma scream from a 1/4 mile away when the horse won't stop isn't gonna
help.
This isn't likely something you want to hear, and you and your daughter may well
proceed to be survivors, and make out ok, but it wouldn't hurt to consider the
possibility that it's not a great idea. May as well learn from the mistakes and
experience of others who have gone before.
Dawn, hoping nothing bad happens.
Phylosophy
>I'm into dressage, so that may leave me biased, but I consider
>training to be going during lessons. In other words, the
>trainer/instructor is having the rider doing most of the actual
>training of the horse. So the rider IS learning to train the horse.
I have finally convinced my daughter that dressage
will not be boring but will help her learn to train
her horse better, so she's going to take lessons
from our new horse trainer (who happens also to
teach French classical dressage) after next month's
horse training session ends. What she learns
can be carried over into her training of her own
horse. Wally will never be a dressage star (LOL!
I can just those huge feet tryin to dance around...
no way.. haha) but what she will learn will
help her cue him better and get him to put those
big feet where she wants him to.
Phyllis
AlaTmPnr
>You mention some of the english *bad* training devices but there are also some
western ones... Like the western version of draw reins, or some of those
western bits with 8" shanks, or those "don't f*** with me
spurs" that I see some of them wearing. It's all a matter of perspective :)
You are more apt to know what is *bad* in your own discipline.
Hmmm spurs .... y'all fixate on those hahaha .... did you know that your Prince
of Wales nubs are actually worse than the 10 point star? It is physics and the
amount of pressure applied per square inch is very relevant.
As to the bits ... that has been discussed before this. I wont add to it.
Bill
--
SRohan6154
jump...@aol.comNOSPAM (Brittany Pledger) writes:
>Clem, Who says Rodeos don't count? That is equivalent to saying Western vs.
>English, but Jumping event's don't count... you are a riot!!!
>
>XOXO Brittany Loves Cascadeur XOXO
>Hunter's Sound, Fort Myers, Florida
>
Muffy, I believe that Bill is referring to western events, ie. reining,
cutting, teampenning, etc...rather than rodeo events.
Sorry if I've put words in your mouth Bill.
AlaTmPnr
>>If that is the case, then why use that type of bit? AND because of the
leverage amount of some of those bits you had *better* be whispering!
This is where we are looking at apples and oranges ..... the bit is for
communication. The horse when carrying that much iron should feel a whisper
..... but if the rider is good then he should be riding strictly off the seat
and the legs .... the big bit should only set the head if it is built for the
horse. The stop, turns, etc all should be coming from the seat and the legs
and a fraction of an inch of movement from the reins should enhance what the
seat and legs are asking for.
I wrote:> Sure but you dont see the pulling and tugging in western that is seen
at the Rollex or the Olympics with the jumpers. The reason you wont see it is
because it reflects a lack of control.
>>I'm sorry Bill, but I have seen pulling and tugging on western horses in curb
bits. It is usually done at home and in private.
Yes .... never said different .... remember what you said about bad apples ....
folks that are doing this dont have a clue.
>> And since the bits are so strong, just taking out the slack has a
considerable
locking effect on the horse's jaw.
You are not supposed to take the slack out. If you are having problems then
the horse should either be in a different bit or the corrections should be made
with a bosalito. As I said you are talking about clueless folks that think
they know something.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>Funny you should ask, Truthfully, I am not interested in the use of artificial
gimmicks for training purposes.
Thank you for enlightening me.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
Bill, using up valuable bandwidth for a silly, inept argujment over the
poster's definition of a horse being properly controlled.
If you had taken due care to read, I was attempting to ascertain the degree of
control needed before the horse reaches what you considered an uncontrollable
state. This would have given us a common ground for discussion.
>Bill, I've taken the liberty to look the definition of controlled up for you,
as I am aware that you lack the intelligence to do so for yourself...
Oh? Puleeeez you are giving blondes a bad name!
Bill
EqWriter
>To me the difference between W-E is like the difference between a manual
>and automatic transition on a car. Any dolt can drive/ride western. It
>takes some skill and effort to ride english disciplines.
>
I disagree. Both take skills to ride effectively and correctly. To effectively
and correctly ride a Western trained horse, you still need to know how to ride.
Unless your referring to those backyard idiots and ten bucks an hour trail ride
places. <EG>
>But fact is, you're trolling or in desparate for attention. Either way -
>Yawn.
Nah, Brittany has a problem with him over something very childish and he seems
to enjoy playing her for all she's worth. <VEG>
Kathy and her Mustang, Jazz <><
"A horse of course that is wild and free is more than man can just let be"
<\__~
// \\
EqWriter
>as possible, and he reacts by learning what she wants
>usually rides with English tack and a snaffle. Now, when
>she rides him outside the arena on the straightaway, she
>likes to gallop sometimes. Being the careful kid she is,
>she tacks him western for this kind of riding, since she
>still has the old curb bit on his western bridle.
>to stop when she wants him to, even though she has
>*never* had that particular problem with him in either
>type of bit. Yet, she is a very cautious type, and
>while she doesn't pull on the bit, she wants to have a
>practicing the one rein stop as well. Told you she was
>cautious. :)
Your daughter wants to attempt training a green horse mostly on her own and yet
she hasn't learned that the stop comes from your seat and legs, not the
bit?!?!? And then you wonder why people point out the error of your ways.
AlaTmPnr
Kris Carrol making scratching fleas a full time occupation wrote:
>To me the difference between W-E is like the difference between a manual
>and automatic transition on a car. Any dolt can drive/ride western. It
>takes some skill and effort to ride english disciplines.
This either illustrates your total ignorance of a discipline or just further
points out your indifference to learning. Either way you are the loser.
Too bad.
Bill
AlaTmPnr
>You've never felt the absolute lightness of real contact - which does comes
from riding off the seat. You have a total disconnect built into your tack
And you know this because? Have you ever ridden a truly well trained reiner?
Have you ever ridden a stop while sliding 30 to 40 feet? Have you put a horse
into a rapid spin? Better yet taken a cow down the long side have it suck back
and have the horse automatically turn with the cow while you sit in the middle
of the horse and then ask the horse to move on the cow's shoulder so you can
circle it?
Better hope it doesnt rain ... you might drown.
Bill
Bella
We all know that bad western people tug on the reins incorrectly
(english riders gasp at this because of the large leverage these bits
have), and we also know that english riders also tug on the rein
incorrectly (western riders gasp at this because they know they are
direct action bits and the brunt of the pull lands on the bars of the
horse's mouth).
The western horse *should* be ridden off the seat, and the english horse
is ridden in contact which is connected to the seat by keeping the
connection of the elbow to the hip (except at the walk).
They are trained a little differently but basically both horses should
work off the seat, the only true difference is that in english we have
contact with a direct action bit. Both disciplines use the bit
differently to correct various problems :)
I am an english rider but I have ridden many western horses and got them
to perform dressage movements because I communicate with them with my
seat. I personally don't care for the lack of rein contact as it makes
me nervous :0
--
Bella...
"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bella
In article <7s8523$2c7$1...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk>,
ca...@aber.ac.uk (CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT) wrote:
> Join the club. The classical contact is a feel of the mouth, with a
> following hand. It gets interpreted as 'grab hold of the rein and
> never let go' -
Sometimes it is necessary to teach the horse that he will be rewarded
for going correctly and giving to the riders hands. Sometimes this is
implemented (badly I might add) to "hold the reins until he gives". Now
this might work on a few horses, but some don't realize that you won't
give unless he gives first. This *method* is employed ALOT in my parts.
I always advise people if this method doesn't work for you in about 3
rides then you need to seek a *better* method to have your horse yield
to the hand :)
> I even had the owner of a particularly ill-educated
> specimen tell me in a motherly voice 'you know, if you ever want
> to ride a horse on the bit, you must never ride him on a long
> rein in the middle of the lesson.'
I've heard that more than once around here too!! Ugly, I know. That's
when I pull out quotes about "the rider must be able to give and take
the contact at any time from the horse". I believe Klimke or DeKunffy
has that in one of their books :) That's my defence.
> The judges give marks for correct execution of movements - if the
> circle is round and in an even tempo, they *must* give good marks
> for it, even if the horse's head is on its chest. They can take
> off marks in the collectives, and mark the rider down if the
> horse's gaits are shortened, without impulsion, etc - but they
> are not there to mark the artistic quality of the work.
Very well put :)) Sad, but true.
> Sad, isn't it? There are a very few, even in the competitive
> world, who *do* produce what I consider the ideal
Yeah! And it's a pity the crap riders still get the kudos for bad
riding and piss-poor training. But not to worry, the AHSA is
instituting new rules to start penalizing bad training :) I can't wait!
> Neither do I. I've ridden in a double bridle, it's no big deal
> - but if there is an advantage to using one, I'm not in the
> position to judge which horse might profit from it, nor do I
> have the ability to do so.
There is very little advantage to using a double (some will claim great
advances, puh!). Simply put, some great trainer said "the snaffle works
on the horse's muscles, while the curb works on the horse's skeleton."
I didn't understand what it meant, but when you play with the effects on
a horse you will understand what this means. Try it!
Another great trainer (don't remember who) once said "Riding with the
crub bit engaged all the time is like driving your car with the
handbrake on all the time - first it just smells bad, and then it
doesn't work!"
Phylosophy
Dawn wrote:
>> (Phyllis) In the arena she
>> usually rides with English tack and a snaffle. Now, when
>> she rides him outside the arena on the straightaway, she
>> likes to gallop sometimes. Being the careful kid she is,
>> she tacks him western for this kind of riding, since she
>> still has the old curb bit on his western bridle.
>Does she know why she is doing that? If she
>can't stop him, why is she galloping him?
I never SAID she can't stop him. She has
had to pull hard on the reins on occasions,
sure, especially when she first got him. He
was used to the way his former owner rode
him, and it was his former owner who
suggested that bit. But he always slows
and stops fine nowadays.
Like I said in the post in question
she is being extra careful *just in case*
and her western bit has leverage and a
curb chain and gives a stronger message
to stop when he's excited and maybe not
paying attention as well as he should be?
Really there is NO reason to think he
wouldn't stop galloping with his snaffle,
since he does in the arena, but she feels
better with the bit he learned to gallop
with, I guess. And her confidence is important
too. Even if it's all psychological, I know that
it's harder to do something right if you are
nervous about it for some reason, which
is why *I* personally suck at horseback
riding.
>If she doesn't pull on the bit, why does it
>matter if she uses a harsher bit?
She feels it will have more effect if and
when she'd need it I suppose. But he is
easy to stop from what I have seen. He
switches gaits without a hitch.. anything
she asks. I was watching her getting him
to do flying lead changes today and she
was having pretty good success with that too.
Like I said, it may just be psychological at
this point.
>Oh, and where are you when this is happening?
>You made some posts saying she's supervised, but
>what will you do when you see her fall off as she
>gallops on the straightaway (not sure what you are
>referring to with this, it's usually used to describe
>the straight long sides of a racetrack....) some
>distance away? Horses gallop pretty darn fast,
>although I suspose she could be cantering, and just
>not realise the difference. Still, you won't be
>able to be there to cushion a potential fall.
>Hearing momma scream from a 1/4 mile away
>when the horse won't stop isn't gonna help.
Oh, she gallops him all right. You can hear the
hoofbeats change from the canter to the gallop
and see the difference even at a distance. It's
only about 500 feet or so I would estimate, and
flat and mowed with no holes, rocks.. part of
their "yard" actually. She and the other teen
race their horses there sometimes, but not lately
since that got boring pretty quick. But she's only
allowed to gallop when I or my hubby are actually
watching.
And why would she fall off just cuz the horse
is galloping instead of cantering? She says the
gallop is smoother than the canter. I wouldn't
know... and I don't care to find out for myself.
She has pretty good balance though. As I said,
she's been riding horses regualarly for nine years
and has only had two falls...none in the last
five years. Now galloping or even cantering
on unknown turf that may contain holes etc. is a
different matter, but she doesn't do that. Seems
to me, from watching, that jumping horses over
three foot fences would be a lot more dangerous
than just galloping on the flat anyway, and kids
do that all the time.
>Why does she think Western tack is gonna make
>any difference, or that she can't ride him in a
>curb with an english saddle.
Because her curb bit is already on the western
bridle, and the snaffle is already on the English
bridle. She doesn't want to have to switch em,
and she only rides English in the arena when she
is working on ground poles and other things. She
uses western tack for the "trail riding" stuff. I
asked her about that myself, and she says she
doesn't want to confuse Wally by mixing and
matching equipment and reining styles. One of
the reasons she gave me for riding western outside
is that the water in the stream is often (not now)
pretty deep and she doesn't want to get her expensive
English saddle wet. She has to cross it to get to a
favorite wide grassy area on the other side, so
she always uses her Bighorn cloth western saddle
to cross the stream. The cinch does get soaked
but it's not leather and it dries okay.
She has her reasons for doing what she does, and
she will probably change her mind, and the bit too,
after she's had more time with this horse, and
some training and advice from her trainer as well
(who is going to assess Wally's bit needs for us
next month). I gotta let her have her idiosyncracies,
as long as she isn't ADDING any danger by being
careful, it's fine with me if she's a bit neurotic
on this. :)
Phyllis
Phylosophy
>>She says she still isn't sure that he will always want
>>to stop when she wants him to, even though she has
>>*never* had that particular problem with him in either
>>type of bit. Yet, she is a very cautious type, and
>>while she doesn't pull on the bit, she wants to have a
>>sharper message available *just in case*. And she is
>>practicing the one rein stop as well. Told you she was
>>cautious. :)
>Your daughter wants to attempt training a green horse mostly on her own and
yet
>she hasn't learned that the stop comes from your seat and legs, not the
>bit?!?!? And then you wonder why people point out the error of your ways.
Sure she has learned this. She knows. She even
rode him bareback a few times in the arena with
just a halter and he stopped and started and gaited
just fine for her. As I said in the previous post,
she knows he was only galloped by the previous
owner with a leveraged curb bit, and that's what
the owner said he needed, so she continues to use
it with her western tack. Like I said, I think
it's just extra caution on her part in case he decides
to revert to the way he galloped with the old owner,
who might have pulled him hard to stop him...dunno.
But it's hardly an issue worth worrying about. She
can stop her horse fine with either bit, so she is free to
use the one that makes her feel better. Three months
is not a long time to "know" all there is to know
about a horse, and she is very cautious person by
nature. And I'm glad she is.
Phyllis
Alwzhorsn
>> In the arena she usually rides with English tack and a snaffle. Now, when
she rides him outside the arena on the straightaway, she likes to gallop
sometimes. Being the careful kid she is, she tacks him western for this kind
of riding, since she still has the old curb bit on his western bridle.
Dawn wrote:
>Does she know why she is doing that? If she can't stop him, why is she
galloping him? Why does she think Western tack is gonna make any difference,
or that she can't ride him in a curb with an english saddle. >
She's being allowed to ride in an unsupervised environment guided by someone
who doesn't understand that the horse WILL RUN THROUGH THE CURB BIT if and when
he decides to. Just add Phyllis and her daughter to the long list of people
ignorant enough to think that putting a curb bit on a horse will stop it from
running away and/or not stopping.
Add Phyllis to the long list of people who thinks it's okay for their 13 yr old
kids to be galloping a horse that needs extra tack to "stop it".
By the way, who taught this horse to properly carry, mouth and respond to a
curb? the barrel racer? ROTFLMAO
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Phylosophy
>dont count especially bullriding.
>Bill
>Clem, Who says Rodeos don't count? That is equivalent to saying Western vs.
>English, but Jumping event's don't count... you are a riot!!!
Right. But Bill still gets to leave out bullriding.
Phyllis (who knows a bull isn't a horse...and
you guys think I don't know horses... Hah! :)
Alwzhorsn
Western riders, Bill wrote:
>Try cutting and reining or even western pleasure where the horse is judged on
its abilities to go collected and relaxed. >
Keep in mind also that when discussing western riders jerking on horses mouths
that they will be penalized heavily if caught doing so in the arena (especially
in reining where they don't even want to see your hand move).
Is that to say all western horses are ridden correctly? not hardly. But I must
admit I'm always a little depressed when someone like Madeline (who I believe
started this particular thread of discussion) refer to curb bits as 'heavy
artillery". oh well, different strokes for different folks.
I've watched a helluva lot of jumpers here on the West Coast at A rated shows
and I've seen a whole lot of riders up in their irons bracing off the reins
before fences. I've seen a whole lot of gags, figure 8s, mechanical hackamore
combos and more being used on the jumpers. I've seen horses pulled on hard
enough that if it had happened to any of my horses they would have flipped over
backwards and killed themselves.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
able to properly ride a well trained western horse that some other folks here)
>Since I do not feel that I have "educated" my hands sufficiently, I do not use
curb bits, even in Western riding. It is my understanding, though, that the
properly trained Western horse has extensive bosal,
snaffle, or hackamore (or some combination thereof) training BEFORE the curb
bit is used, and that the curb is ridden on a loose rein. Again, the reins
control the nose and the seat and body and legs control everything else. So
maybe there is not as much difference as purists on both sides of the question
claim. >
You're right on target about the proper training of a western horse Bill. Also
probably are pretty correct about the differences, or lack thereof, between the
two schools (E & W).
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Phylosophy
>hacks(whether english or western)
>thinking that they are doing their horse a
>favor are another thing. No iron
>involved but the mechanical hack is
>capable of more damage.
>Bill
There's a person at our stable who has just
switched to a hackamore, after trying 3 or 4
different bits, saying none could control her
horse. All this in the short time I have been
there. I have watched her ride this horse and
it's no wonder the horse gives her problems.
She gets it to trot by kicking it, repeatedly! She
"asks" it to stop by yanking till the head bobs
straight up in the air. I think it has given up
even trying to get any comfort from the rider,
cuz no matter where the poor thing puts its
head or feet it's getting yanked on. Now the
horse has developed a head tossing problem,
thus the "need" for something stronger, according
to the rider. I just bite my tongue till it bleeds.
Phyllis
Alwzhorsn
>>To many riders (and clinicians and trainers and intructors) "contact" seems
to mean "pull that sucker's
head back into the frame." This might not be what they SAY, but is is damn
sure what a lot DO. And this is what the judges REWARD. >>
Catja wrote:
>The judges give marks for correct execution of movements - if the circle is
round and in an even tempo, they *must* give good marks for it, even if the
horse's head is on its chest. They can take off marks in the collectives, and
mark the rider down if the horse's gaits are shortened, without impulsion,
etc - but they are not there to mark the artistic quality of the work. >
Too bad, seems like a flaw in the judging of dressage horses. Reining horses
will be penalized for overbridling and/or mouth gaping, you'd think dressage
horses would be held to similar criteria.
Catja wrote:
>Of course it isn't! I was just pointing out that, if ill-educated and under
stress to control the horse, English riders seemed to react differently to
Western riders.>
Around here the ill-educated all seem to pretty much react the same, jerk,
pull, yell and go to gimmicks.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
>> But with what kind of contact? How much of a loop is there in the western
rein compared to the English rein? There is a difference .... the western
horse is generally trained to go on a whisper.
Bellamy asked:
>If that is the case, then why use that type of bit? AND because of the
leverage amount of some of those bits you had *better* be whispering!
As has been explained here quite a few times western horses are using horses
(roping, reining, opening gates, carrying things, dragging things, etc etc).
Riding one handed works best in these circumstances. Snaffles and bosals are
designed to be ridden two handed. So in order to do the work one needs to be
using bits that are designed to be used one handed - those bits would be curbs.
A horse properly trained to a curb responds to a feather weight touch on the
reins. Those reins are also a part of the communication process (simply put, I
hold the reins in my rein hand, lift my hand slightly, tremor goes through the
reins to the horse's mouth and the horse responds before there is any actual
'pull' on the reins. Of course this rein movement is used in conjunction with
changes of my body position and weight.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
which does comes from riding off the seat. You have a total disconnect built
can you explain further? what is the disconnect?
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
robf...@my-deja.com
alwz...@aol.com (Alwzhorsn) wrote:
> In the long standing battle of who abuses their horse's mouths less,
English or
> Western riders, Bill wrote:
> >Try cutting and reining or even western pleasure where the horse is
judged on
> its abilities to go collected and relaxed. >
>
> Keep in mind also that when discussing western riders jerking on
horses mouths
> that they will be penalized heavily if caught doing so in the arena
(especially
> in reining where they don't even want to see your hand move).
>
> Is that to say all western horses are ridden correctly? not hardly.
But I must
> admit I'm always a little depressed when someone like Madeline (who I
believe
> started this particular thread of discussion) refer to curb bits
as 'heavy
> artillery". oh well, different strokes for different folks.
>
Indeed. There is nothing more beautiful than to see a good rider on a
good horse turning in a perfect round in a trail class. The ideal (at
least 25 years ago) is to ride the ring and the obstacles with a
moderately loose rein, and the rider appearing to be almost motionless,
but focused on the horse. Only when it was necessary for the rider to
do something (open a gate, put on a raincoat) did the rider move.
Having ridden (and won) my share of WP and trail classes, I can
guarantee you that, in a good western saddle, you can indeed feel your
horse, and you do have contact with the mouth. It's a different type of
contact, but it's there. A mere twitch of the finger on a rein will cue
a properly responsive horse. A slight shift of the seat, a tiny
pressure of the leg, and the desired action is given.
I've also ridden and shown English. Different types of contact, but
with a good horse you can still get what you want. The rider has to be
bright enough tho to realize that rein cues will feel different because
of the different action of the bits (snaffle v. western curb), but the
same seat, same leg cues, will give the desired actions.
I call it a wrench, Catja may call it a spanner, but we use it to do
the same damn thing. And if what we do is lovely, well-done, and
doesn't injure the horse, what difference does it make whether one is
superior to the other? (Free Clue: both styles have bad points, and
neither has sufficient good points to out-do the other.)
--
Lorri
Scratchbottom Shires and Spots
http://www.geocities.com/scratchbottom
Alwzhorsn
riding education when they feel they "know all they need to know". Heck they
know how to stay on a horse, what is left to learn? The clinics are for
"teaching the horse", not them.
English riders tend to go to the clinics thinking they are learning the skills
and not the horse. You can teach an old horse some new tricks, but teach me
how to teach all horses the tricks. So they continue going to more lessons in
a search for personal riding endeavors, many horses come along, many horses
leave, and if they can ride well they can ride them all/better. >
Interesting take, which I totally disagree with!
From my own experience, both attending clinics and being part of giving them, I
see western riders wanting to learn how to build skills that will enable them
to work with many different horses. Many of these folks, right or wrong, are
starting colts, riding greenies or in some cases have 2-4 horses at different
levels of training that they are trying to move forward with.
English riders, OTOH, seem more often to be the ones making comments like "well
Joe is my trainer and he'll fix that problem, I'm here to learn how to jump
better" or "oh we can't use that bit on FuzzyButt, this is a jumping clinic, we
need our jumping bit".
Obviously there are differences on both sides of the fence. I do think there
are more bad riders who ride western (at least here on the west coast) because
western gear is often cheaper to buy and easier to find at the local Slop N
Shop (feed store). You also have all the parents who are convinced that western
is much safer for the kids because the saddles have horns. Now some of these
people may actually grow up to be good horseman, some will ride english. Many
however will just fumble along through life riding poorly on poorly trained
horses.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Phylosophy
>Add Phyllis to the long list of people who thinks it's okay for their 13 yr
old
>kids to be galloping a horse that needs extra tack to "stop it".
I never said he "needs" it. Try reading the post.
And she is 15, just for the record.
>By the way, who taught this horse to properly
>carry, mouth and respond to a
>curb? the barrel racer? ROTFLMAO
It was the bit the guy used on him in barrel racing,
yes. I don't know why he used it. He also used a
tiedown which we never even put on Wally..ever.
I do NOT think he needs a curb. however. I got the
snaffle for her after reading a discussion of bits
on this ng last month. It works just fine. This is
a temporary situation anyway. No big deal. No rush
to change anything before the trainer gets involved
and analyzes the horse herself.
Phyllis
Meghan Noecker
>Brittanny Pledger interjecting her own brand of ignorance wrote:
>
>>You said it sister!!!
>The "English" Bit of choice is a snaffle, whereas the most popular "Western"
>bit is a curb. Our western horses all go in Loose-ring snaffles. We don't even
>OWN a curb bit...
>
>Brittany now dont let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird ass LOL.
>There would be a reason why you dont own a curb LOL it requires competence to
>use it. You might want to point out that the "western horses" mentioned are not
>yours and are not shown. At 5yo most western type horses are required to work
>in a curb. This is regardless of class. Trailriding for fun is not considered
>competitive and the knowledge to do so does not constitute being a competent
>horseman. That may be why you have a barn manager ... to save you from
>yourself.
>
Oh please. We got our first horse, a barely broke, worse than green 5
year old gelding (had a rider on twice - sweet tempered but didn't
have ANY training). He came with a curb bit. We didn't know any better
and used it. It had 6 inch shanks. We thought it was the common and
normal bit, so we never asked.
I think curb bitss are routinely used with green horses and green
riders because they simply don't know any better. I'm sorry to say
that a LOT of inexperienced people don't realize it is a harsh bit and
one not to be used by greenies or on greenies.
Meghan
Friesians in the Northwest
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Laura Friedman
> From my own experience, both attending clinics and being part of giving them, I
> see western riders wanting to learn how to build skills that will enable them
> to work with many different horses. Many of these folks, right or wrong, are
> starting colts, riding greenies or in some cases have 2-4 horses at different
> levels of training that they are trying to move forward with.
> English riders, OTOH, seem more often to be the ones making comments like "well
> Joe is my trainer and he'll fix that problem, I'm here to learn how to jump
> better" or "oh we can't use that bit on FuzzyButt, this is a jumping clinic, we
> need our jumping bit".
I ride and have ridden both ways, and disagree with you and Bill and
Brittany completely.
I don't see any overall difference between the attitudes of the riders
of each discipline, and think you find just as many abuses and good
riders on both sides of the "fence."
In fact, I fail to see any "fence" at all.
Laura (riding in an english saddle and hopefully soon in a bosal and
mecate)
Alwzhorsn
>>Add Phyllis to the long list of people who thinks it's okay for their 13 yr
old kids to be galloping a horse that needs extra tack to "stop it".
Phyllis wrote:
>I never said he "needs" it. Try reading the post. >
You're right, I didn't read the post correctly. The horse doesn't need the
curb, your daughter does. Maybe someone should sit her down and get some
explanations from her why she thinks this is necessary and then point out to
her the error of her thinking.
Horses that weren't properly trained to carry the curb have a tendency to panic
when the curb is used in stressful situations. the bit hits the horse's mouth
wrong, the horse panics, locks his jaw, tenses his neck, cross canters and
bolts.
You are endangering your daughter by allowing her to ride a horse in equipment
that he isn't properly trained to carry. If the horse doesn't want to stop one
day and she chooses to pull on the reins to stop him (which is why she's using
it right?) she could end up with a problem that she isn't capable or qualified
to handle.
Curb bits are for horses that have years of training in them (our horses
typically do not wear a curb until they have been ridden for a full three
years). One doesn't just put a curb on because they are riding western. If the
horse is in a snaffle english it should be in a snaffle western.
If I remember correctly your horse is young enough that he still has a
developing mouth and a curb is not what he needs to be wearing. If she pulls on
that bit and it hits his mouth wrong or hits a tooth that's sore, your daughter
is going to have a real problem.
FYI - One rein stops shouldn't be used in curb bits. I hope your daughter is
practicing them in the snaffle.
>>By the way, who taught this horse to properly
carry, mouth and respond to a curb? the barrel racer? ROTFLMAO>
>It was the bit the guy used on him in barrel racing, yes.>
the question was who taught the horse to 'properly' carry, mouth and respond to
a curb? given your limited experience with horses in the curb how would you
even evaluate if this horse is carrying the curb correctly?
>No rush to change anything before the trainer gets involved and analyzes the
horse herself. >
weren't you just asking a couple of days ago if you should switch to a
kimberwick for western? was this just a hypothetical question or was it
something you planned on changing before the trainer got involved?
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Meghan Noecker
>Meghan Noecker wrote:
>
>Okay I will accept that. I dont agree with it but I will accept that is how
>y'all approach it. But how can an inexperienced rider teach advanced moves to
>a horse unless that rider has already learned what the result feels like?
That is why you also have a trainer. For example, you have the trainer
teaching the horse the new technique, then you learn it.
Most people never get to advanced moves though. And most can't afford
to buy a grand prix level horse to learn on.
Also, let's say I know what it feels like to do X. Does that mean I
automatically know how to train the next horse to do X? Of course not,
knowing what something feels like doesn't mean I can train it. It is
also easy to know what needs to be done and not know how it feels.
That is why trainers will sometimes work the horse on a lunge line
while the rider learns to get the feel of it.
>>As the horse advances, the rider must be learning (to ride better as well as
>train the horse to advance)
>
>See now is where we part company .. the rider has to be ahead of the horse
>otherwise he cannot train the horse in advanced moves as he doesnt know how to
>do it. The government uses OJT (On the Job Training) it sucks there too. You
>lose something in the exchange of information and you only learn limited
>skills. The rider should be taught on a schoolmaster and then ride numerous
>horses to hone their skills before ever learning how to train a horse.
>
I'm not advocating green on green, but I think it is very limiting to
say that a horse must be pre-trained for everything you ever plan to
do if you've never done it before.
Most people cannot afford grand prix level horses nor will they ever
compete at that level. And we all have to start somewhere. So if I buy
a horse that's trained to level 2 in dressage, why can't I, even if I
never went above level 2, train the horse and advance through the
levels? I would still have a trainer helping me.
You make it sound like I should never to try to train a horse to do
something if I've never done it before. So I am doomed to never learn
anything because I can't afford a pre-trained horse?
aregard
>You've never felt the absolute lightness of real contact - which does
>comes from riding off the seat. You have a total disconnect built into
>your tack.
I don't ride western. I have spent time in the discipline that expects
contact between hand and mouth. So, you'll have to explain to me the answer
to the obvious question.
If you have a total disconnect built into the tack, why do you have the
tack?
And if the answer is, "just in case", and you have total disconnect built
into the tack, why do you need a 5 inch shank "just in case"?
These are serious questions, actually. This is the part of the 'loose rein'
philosophy that I don't understand.
And I've seen 'em slide and spin with those reins flapping. You wonder why
the have the reins there at all.
Adrienne Regard
aregard
aregard
AlaTmPnr wrote in message <19990921144904...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
>Nope ..... just commenting on that particular poster's proficiency.
Which you can tell by sending email to a newsgroup?
>There are those western riders that take the time to learn properly from
either a knowledgeable horseman that they meticulously ape or they sometimes
pay someone to train them and others train themselves by taping their riding
and critically examine the tape for flaws.
The critical difference is that it's a whole lot easier to ride western
wrong than it is to ride English wrong.
By this I don't mean that you get on an English horse and it's easier to be
right -- I mean precisely the opposite. It's uncomfortable and insecure and
worrisome to get in that English tack, and do it wrong, so people don't.
They either stop, or they get lessons.
Western is different. If you want to ride and don't/can't take lessons,
you'll figure out how to stay upright easier in western tack, even when you
are doing it wrong. I think there's a certain percentage of people out
there who are quite happily riding along, all wrong, and who figure, since
they are still upright, that's all there is to it.
More of them happen to be in western tack because of the perceived
insecurity of English tack, that's all.
There's also a noticeable difference in the amount of muscular activity
between the styles. Most English riding demands contact, which requires a
coordination of body, shoulder, elbow, forearm, hand, fingers, chest, hip
and abdomen. Now, subtle and effective western riding also requires control
of the upper and lower body in coordination with each other, but the
relationship to your forearm and your hand and your fingers haven't the same
coordinated demands as the proper contact for an English horse. The English
riding demand for an independent seat (which means the ability to regularly
use your seat, weight, and leg aids independently), and the rather more
active and repeated cuing of the English horse, with specified bend and
lengthening/shortening also seems to ask more coordination of efforts than
the subtle shifts of weight that the good western horse is listening for.
Granted that learning to talk to a good western horse is not easy, but the
number of variables seems far fewer than the normal demands of English
riding. The goal in western riding is to do very little, yet the horse
performs. The goal of English riding is to look like you are doing little
(all the while you are cuing subtling with the left leg back, pressing with
lower calf in a rapid rhythm, right leg at the girth pressing with upper
thigh slowly and squeezing, balancing the horse to the outside, half halting
on the left rein, initiating bend with the right rein, using a gentle hand
for this particular horse, while holding with the seat, but relaxing
shoulders for that light hand, eyes up and focused on the next letter for
the transition) and the horse performs. In advanced English riding,
Dressage, you are literally placing every foot.
Riding properly in any discipline is hard and rare. But it's easier to just
sit there (doing western wrong) than to fall (doing English wrong).
Adrienne Regard
aregard
>Want to compare death rates in western eventing to english eventing?
What does that have to say to anything? The sports are very different on
any number of levels.
Adrienne Regard