Racinet Reactions
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
review my notes and do some thinking. This is just my first
reactions, with more mastications later. If Alice Simpson ever
sneaks back on here I'm sure she can give a better report than I can,
'cause her pen was flying faster than mine (when she wasn't snapping
pix) and she was quizzing Racinet down in further detail than I can
even imagine.....plus she's there for all 4 days and I was only there
for lecture plus most of one day.
Salient point #1: Yes, Racinet Is An Equestrian God. As I suspected
from past comments on rec.eq, there's a lot about this style which
resonates with me. To some extent I think that's because some
Baucherist elements have snuck into Western training through the Fort
Riley manual (I don't have _Racinet Explains Baucher_ directly to
hand--too lazy to stand up and get it--but in my skimming the book I
did read a section where he identifies Baucherist elements in the Fort
Riley guide). Racinet did make the comment that when he first came to
the States, the best riders he taught were Western riders and
jockeys--because both groups of riders had a better feel of the mouth
than other riders. Interesting.
Point #2: There's no way in hell I can even begin to fully implement
everything I saw. I *can* work on the basics--Release of the aids,
Seperation of the aids, Moderation of the aids and optimization of
orders. But I can certainly understand some critiques of Racinet and
Baucher, because if you don't know what the hell you're doing, you can
seriously mess a horse up doing this stuff. In fact, in the packet of
_Riding in Lightness_ mags I bought, Racinet writes at the head of one
article (on tempi flying changes I think, my brain is getting fuzzy
and I don't want to get up and grab it....) "don't even read this if
you don't have these basics down...." including a strong, independent
seat. So I didn't. I may have a seat, but the rest of it is--well, I
don't know how well I'd fit the rest of the criteria.
I *would*, however, love to drag Miz Porsche to a Racinet clinic. I
think I might see a very different horse....
Anyway. The lecture was most interesting, but seeing the three horses
I did today (two Andalusians and a Throughbred) was even more so.
Unfortunately, I missed the first horse of the day.
The first horse I saw was a big, powerful dark gray Andy going in the
double bridle. His owner's goal was to get smooth flying changes out
of him on the straightaway--well, it didn't quite happen, but there
were many graphic illustrations of "releasing the aids" to reward the
horse, ranging from opening the fingers to simply dropping the reins.
One very graphic image which I want to try is to visualize yourself as
a fencer (first expressed at the canter, then later used as an image
at walk and trot) with your inside hand as the one holding the foil.
Acck. It's all fadinggggg......
But what was very clear to me was the effect of raising the hands. At
one point this rider had her hands up almost as high as her
shoulders--to get some nice slowing and collection while still
remaining light. This horse really illustrated the effect of raising
the shoulders to tilt the pelvis.
Horse number two was a light gray, almost white Andy. This fellow was
working toward piaffe (and the details and nuances of this will be
better expressed by Alice). However, Racinet rode this fellow quite a
bit and then did a lot of in-hand work. Most interesting,
enlightening, and nothing I'm anywhere near the skill level of doing.
The next horse was a Throughbred. This fellow had a lot of
conformation problems, and Racinet got out there and did quite a few
spinal adjustments on the horse in question. Some of us (including me
and Alice) got right out there to eyeball exactly what he was
doing--again, something else I wouldn't start playing with, but the
horse *was* moving better afterwards. This horse was also fitted for
the first time in a double bridle, and I learned something about
proper fit of a double bridle a la Racinet. We also observed a bunch
of flexions in the Baucherist style--again, while I'm itching to try
this, I don't think I'd go barging right on in without a bit more
exposure to the right and wrong ways to do it.
When all was said and done, this horse worked nicely at the walk and
trot, despite some very obvious conformation problems with his neck
(very ewe-necked fellow). From the comments around me from folks who
saw the same horse work yesterday, the horse was working better and
happier in the double bridle.
Some notes: I saw a lot of very light contact, with draped reins.
There was good collection and impulsion--but very different from what
I'm used to seeing, much lighter on the forehand.
Racinet also uses the dreaded whip. However, the usage I saw of it
was that of a light tapping action, never a full out (or even light)
smack.
Riding in lightness doesn't mean you don't use your hands at all--what
it does mean is using, then releasing the hands quickly, in a short,
quick action, never encouraging the horse to lean on the bit.
Much of this stuff resonates with me, especially the basic principles
and elements such as dropping down to a halt, regaining collection,
then asking for the appropriate gait again. I think the most telling
experience for me was watching the ordinary TB at work, rather than
the advanced Andys--while they were impressive, it was seeing the
results in the regular ordinary boy that had an effect on me. It was
especially nice seeing that dressage does NOT have to equal tight
reins, gaping mouths, and horses that look like they'll fall on their
noses if you drop the reins, and who manage to remain in self-carriage
even without the reins (for at least several strides of canter).
So I guess I'm gonna be a Racinet junkie--or at least a French school
junkie. I liked a lot of what I saw, and I want more.....
Now I've gotta figure out how I'm gonna get to the Bettina Drummond
clinic....
Meanwhile. I'm going to review my notes, and put them in a coherent
order, then at least give a detailed reproduction of the lecture.
I want moooorrrreeee......Heck, I wanna drag Porsche to this one....
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
RPM1
>Salient point #1: Yes, Racinet Is An Equestrian God.
Congratulations on your discovery! Like I've said before,
be sure to beg, borrow and consider theft in efforts to
see Jean-Claude. It's probably one of the greatest gifts
you can give to your horse, your skill in the Art and the
overall future of horsemanship.
Ruth, who is green with jello that she couldn't be there, CM
Jackie
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
Thanks Joyce, I look forward to further installments, and wait with a
growing sense of deja-vu for all the impending 'informed opinions' on
what heresy you witnessed!
Jackie
Jane H. Kilberg
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
(snipped parts)
>Well, this is not gonna be a comprehensive report because I have to
>review my notes and do some thinking.
I found it interesting. Hope to hear more.
> Racinet did make the comment that when he first came to
>the States, the best riders he taught were Western riders and
>jockeys--because both groups of riders had a better feel of the mouth
>than other riders. Interesting.
Somehow I'm not surprised about this observation. Western disciplines and
racing work more off body language, weight shifts and legs than the head.
Even in high end disciplines such as reining and cutting, the head is the
last thing to work on.
> including a strong, independent
>seat. So I didn't. I may have a seat, but the rest of it is--well, I
>don't know how well I'd fit the rest of the criteria.
I think I like Racinet. <g>
>But what was very clear to me was the effect of raising the hands. At
>one point this rider had her hands up almost as high as her
>shoulders--to get some nice slowing and collection while still
>remaining light. This horse really illustrated the effect of raising
>the shoulders to tilt the pelvis.
I frequently do "high and wide" to help slow a horse along with my body
movement even though my goal isn't collection as in dressage. I look at it
as the horse yielding its body so it is light in the fore. Probably
similar.
>Racinet also uses the dreaded whip. However, the usage I saw of it
>was that of a light tapping action, never a full out (or even light)
>smack.
A whip is only an extension of one's body. It's mighty difficult to bend
over and reach down with your hand to tap a horse for encouragement to
move forward. <g>
>Riding in lightness doesn't mean you don't use your hands at all--what
>it does mean is using, then releasing the hands quickly, in a short,
>quick action, never encouraging the horse to lean on the bit.
Perhaps I assume much, but I thought all riding was not constant contact
regardless of the discipline. I could see problems in constant contact (no
matter how light) as the horse never gets its reward. But then perhaps
that's specialty training when one does constant contact in the mouth.
Thanks Joyce for the post. It was very interesting to me, especially
reading about different approaches to riding a horse.
--
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Ignatzmom
Thanks so much, Joyce, for your report. Now I REALLY want to see this
gentleman in action -- maybe next time he comes to the middle part of the
country.
Lee, Still riding after all these years.
Catja Pafort
>>Riding in lighTness doesn't mean you don't use your hands at all--what
>>it does mean is using, then releasing the hands quickly, in a short,
>>quick action, never encouraging the horse to lean on the bit.
>
>Perhaps I assume much, but I thought all riding was not constant contact
>regardless of the discipline. I could see problems in constant contact (no
>matter how light) as the horse never gets its reward. But then perhaps
>that's specialty training when one does constant contact in the mouth.
The thing is that the light following hand is NOT somehting that is
uncomfortable for the horse - hence he does not 'seek a release' nor
do you reward him with one.
A well trained dressage horse will *offer* a contact - the rider
merely accepts it.
Catja
(long post on Racinet to follow <g>)
--
Catja Pafort
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~cap96>
"Finish a sentence when it gets tired and start a new one."
(Tom Ivers on rec.eq)
Jackie
wrote:
>>>Riding in lighTness doesn't mean you don't use your hands at all--what
>>>it does mean is using, then releasing the hands quickly, in a short,
>>>quick action, never encouraging the horse to lean on the bit.
>>
>>Perhaps I assume much, but I thought all riding was not constant contact
>>regardless of the discipline. I could see problems in constant contact (no
>>matter how light) as the horse never gets its reward. But then perhaps
>>that's specialty training when one does constant contact in the mouth.
>
>The thing is that the light following hand is NOT somehting that is
>uncomfortable for the horse - hence he does not 'seek a release' nor
>do you reward him with one.
What did I say Joyce?
A horse does not seek a release merely because he has been 'convinced'
that there is none available. He does not seek a contact naturally
other than through lack of balance - he has merely been TRAINED to do
so. You can indeed train any horse to do all kinds of things with the
release as a reward/reinforcement - because it IS one - he would
rather be left alone.
I quote Kyra Kyrklund recently:
'When I get on an unknown or green horse I do not have the same goal
as many other riders, which is to get the horse on the bit as quickly
as possible and at any price. Too many riders focus too much on
this....
I begin by asking for halt. I use a firm but quiet restraining hand to
stop the horse, which should be immediately followed by releasing the
contact by giving the reins...he must carry his head himself, without
a contact....
(following various walk exercises)
The benefit of this proceedure is that....I can then REWARD him in any
situation...
Moreover, if you are not able to give the rein, you are not able to
release the legs either....
Remember influence equals punishment, and no influence equals reward.
In this way, I make the horses reactions more sensitive."
Might there just be some things about dressage you may well not
understand yet?
Jackie
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:00:59 GMT, ca...@aber.ac.uk (Catja Pafort)
>wrote:
snip
>>The thing is that the light following hand is NOT somehting that is
>>uncomfortable for the horse - hence he does not 'seek a release' nor
>>do you reward him with one.
>What did I say Joyce?
Jackie, get your attributions straight.
Catja wrote the above, not me. If you're gonna slam someone, aim it
at the right person.
snip
>I quote Kyra Kyrklund recently:
snip
This quote is bang on Racinet.
But....
>Might there just be some things about dressage you may well not
>understand yet?
Are you addressing this to me or to Catja? You're munging up the
attributions and muddying up the waters.
You want to have a specifics debate, you aim it at her.
No DQs at this address. Just French method converts. Which, from all
the discussion I heard at the clinic, pretty much condemns me to stay
out of dressage showing for anything other than the fun of it. One
woman was practically in tears as she described the comments on her
scorecards because she refuses to yield to German standards of rein
contact for competition--but she got a lot of support from others
present that she was in fact doing the right thing.
NBD for me, as I was doing the clinic to improve my own skills, not
increase the likelihood of picking up any pretty colored fabric scraps
or silver plated stuff.
jrw
Jackie
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>>What did I say Joyce?
>
>Jackie, get your attributions straight.
>
>Catja wrote the above, not me. If you're gonna slam someone, aim it
>at the right person.
My my, we are twitchy - I am not slamming you, I am adding an aside to
you (referring to my earlier comment) in a post to Catja, knowing you
would read it.
>Are you addressing this to me or to Catja?
Catja - the attribution was correct, perhaps brackets round the aside
would have helped, or a smiley?? Just shows you how easy these things
are to misinterpret!
Had you followed any previous 'contact or dressage' threads you would
have little doubt I would agree with 99% of what JC said; having
discussed him for months with one of his pupils. I said I was looking
forward to your report, and I meant it.
Jackie
RPM1
>No DQs at this address.
Hell no! Go peddle your fish elsewhere.
>Just French method converts. Which, from all
>the discussion I heard at the clinic, pretty much condemns me to stay
>out of dressage showing for anything other than the fun of it.
Stay away from the Dressage arena, it'll just make you retch.
Excellent posts on your clinic notes BTW. :-)
Ruth, a former and now recovering DQ, CM
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>Had you followed any previous 'contact or dressage' threads you would
>have little doubt I would agree with 99% of what JC said; having
>discussed him for months with one of his pupils. I said I was looking
>forward to your report, and I meant it.
Okay, good. Sorry, I thought it was otherwise.
I'm sitting here with some irritableness due to personal stuff (kid &
school problems) and health stuff.
Speaking of contact, after today's lesson I'm not really happy.
Instructor kept telling me to shorten the rein, take up more
contact--as much as 6 inches! But I could feel his mouth just fine at
the lighter contact, felt like I had control (in fact, he felt much
more difficult to handle and was pulling harder the more contact I
took). Heck, I shoulda just shoved my arms straight out and kept the
contact I wanted since it was my elbow placement she didn't like.
But she kept insisting I didn't truly have contact with him....sigh.
Methinks I may be looking around or go back to Western until I find
the right situation.
jrw
Laura Friedman
>
> Speaking of contact, after today's lesson I'm not really happy.
> Instructor kept telling me to shorten the rein, take up more
> contact--as much as 6 inches! But I could feel his mouth just fine at
> the lighter contact, felt like I had control (in fact, he felt much
> more difficult to handle and was pulling harder the more contact I
> took). Heck, I shoulda just shoved my arms straight out and kept the
> contact I wanted since it was my elbow placement she didn't like.
>
> But she kept insisting I didn't truly have contact with him....sigh.
> Methinks I may be looking around or go back to Western until I find
> the right situation.
>
I know it sounds extreme, but I'll tell you what happened to me. I was
taking lessons and getting the same reaction as you: "take more
contact!" Then, I went into my first show, and afterwards the judge's
big comment was: "take more contact!" I figured these DQs wanted me
yanking on poor Squig's mouth, after all, I could feel her just fine.
Then I got home and watched the videotape of myself. Low and behold,
not only didn't I have the contact I *thought* I had, the reins were
actually hanging down in a visible loop!
Of course, I have no idea what you're actually doing. My point is just
that what we feel -- what we *think* we're dong, and what others see --
what we're *actually* doing, can be quite different.
Laura & Squigs
RPM1
>>
>> Speaking of contact, after today's lesson I'm not really happy.
>> Instructor kept telling me to shorten the rein, take up more
>> contact--as much as 6 inches! But I could feel his mouth just fine at
>> the lighter contact, felt like I had control (in fact, he felt much
>> more difficult to handle and was pulling harder the more contact I
>> took). Heck, I shoulda just shoved my arms straight out and kept the
>> contact I wanted since it was my elbow placement she didn't like.
>>
>> But she kept insisting I didn't truly have contact with him....sigh.
>> Methinks I may be looking around or go back to Western until I find
>> the right situation.
IF you're really serious about learning the French method
STOP taking regular lessons! You'll just get frustrated and confused.
Stick to hacking out and get in touch with J-C to find out if
there are any of his students near you. We're in NY. Where
are you? If you want to talk email us for our phone #. Did you
get to see any work on flexions/relaxation of the poll/jaw?
I know what you're going thru. Fortunately I have my husband,
who was my riding instructor before we were married, to bounce
things off of. Forget about your basic garden variety instruction.
You need much, MUCH more! We'll try to help.
This sounds like a cult, eh?
Ruth, drink this Kool-Aid, CM
Jackie
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>Speaking of contact, after today's lesson I'm not really happy.
>Instructor kept telling me to shorten the rein, take up more
>contact--as much as 6 inches! But I could feel his mouth just fine at
>the lighter contact, felt like I had control (in fact, he felt much
>more difficult to handle and was pulling harder the more contact I
>took). Heck, I shoulda just shoved my arms straight out and kept the
>contact I wanted since it was my elbow placement she didn't like.
>
>But she kept insisting I didn't truly have contact with him....sigh.
>Methinks I may be looking around or go back to Western until I find
>the right situation.
It is very easy to 'ruin yourself' for life going to see what IS
possible. Makes a lot of stuff just kind of hard to stomach.
jackie
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Of course, I have no idea what you're actually doing. My point is just
>that what we feel -- what we *think* we're dong, and what others see --
>what we're *actually* doing, can be quite different.
Here's a picture. The bridle had braided reins--you know, the hunt
seat type of reins that has thin strips of leather braided into the
hand hold section? The type most of the time you want to take a hold
about halfway along the braid?
She wanted me to shorten them up past the braided area. At least 1
inch into the smooth area beyond that. I felt like a friggin water
skier, and Guy was pulling harder on me than he ever has before. I'd
gotten him to relax at canter before--but he was pulling so hard I
couldn't even easily turn my head to look where I was going to circle.
Plus everything *hurt* after I climbed off. Shoulder, upper back,
elbows, wrists, even my hands.
If I do move (and I'm thinking more and more strongly about it), it
won't be just because of this, though. I have been thinking about it
all summer, to be honest, because I don't agree with this instructor's
emphasis on heavy, heavy hands. She's very much a German dressage
sort (and her dressage mentor is uber German styling, I asked around
about him at the Racinet clinic) and I see nothing but conflict coming
as I really prefer a lighter contact than she does.
jrw
>
>Laura & Squigs
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>It is very easy to 'ruin yourself' for life going to see what IS
>possible. Makes a lot of stuff just kind of hard to stomach.
No kidding. I'm thinking very, very hard about going back to Western
as a holding action, until I can find a French-oriented dressage
instructor. Rather like looking for a Russian-oriented ballet
instructor around here, I'll bet (it's heavy on RAD and Cecchetti
styling, decent ballet stuff but not best for my body).
OTOH, I *did* see an ad for someone who claims to have worked with
Mary Wanless. I guess it just comes down to what she thinks about
contact.
Biggest thing is that for me, bit contact is rather like a whip is for
you--it's the touchstone, it's the line in the sand and it's something
I don't want to compromise on.
jrw
Jackie
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>No kidding. I'm thinking very, very hard about going back to Western
>as a holding action, until I can find a French-oriented dressage
>instructor. Rather like looking for a Russian-oriented ballet
>instructor around here......
Here too - I may never find another trainer, and have to make do with
the odd 'assessment of correctness'. But, with the marvels of
technology we have the internet!!!!Can't you hire the horse and the
menage and just 'play'?? I played with my own mare, and when I went
and played with someone's Medium dressage horse, for the first time in
a while, they were astonished at the lightness, not only of the
contact, but the overall impression. Horses really begin to RESPOND to
this stuff quickly, even horses otherwise trained! It just makes more
sense to them.
>Biggest thing is that for me, bit contact is rather like a whip is for
>you--it's the touchstone, it's the line in the sand and it's something
>I don't want to compromise on.
What the horse responds to most willingly is my touchstone, whatever
it's source - and less is more in their book.
Jackie
Ignatzmom
Joyce posted:>Here's a picture. The bridle had braided reins--you know, the
hunt
>seat type of reins that has thin strips of leather braided into the
>hand hold section?
ARGH! Didn't JC give the lecture about that type of rein? GET RID OF THEM!
They work against everything he is trying to convey.
>She wanted me to shorten them up past the braided area.
What? See if you can find someone else to take lessons from -- this is insane.
> I felt like a friggin water
>skier, and Guy was pulling harder on me than he ever has before
Obviously it didn't work for him, either.
>I'd
>gotten him to relax at canter before--but he was pulling so hard I
>couldn't even easily turn my head to look where I was going to circle
Really didn't work for him, did it?
>e I don't agree with this instructor's
>emphasis on heavy, heavy hands. She's very much a German dressage
I would never have guessed <g>
>and I see nothing but conflict coming
>as I really prefer a lighter contact than she does.
Find someone else -- anyone else. Are you in Calif? I think there are several
French types there who do lessons. Get away from this woman, who is obviously
not even very good at the German version of dressage, and is trying to get you
to ride from front to back. Almost anything is better than this torture you
are putting yourself and your horse through.
Eiyan
>I have been thinking about it
>emphasis on heavy, heavy hands. She's very much a German dressage
>as I really prefer a lighter contact than she does.
Joyce,
Now you can appreciate all the controversy over the French vs. German methods
of dressage! <g> If you are interested in competition, the German method is
preferred there. But it doesn't sound as if you are. If you're interested in
a horse that's responsive to light aids and a pleasure to ride, I'd go with the
French method. While both methods claim to produce light, responsive horses,
the German method frequently does not. It's more difficult for the rider to
lighten the horse using opposing aids than by separating the aids. Yet the
German method is far more prevalent in dressage circles. But at least you've
seen the light!
I learned dressage from a German source, and, like you, didn't like it at all.
I came from a hunter/jumper background and thought my horses rode better
*before* I started dressage - which didn't seem right. Dressage is supposed to
improve the horse, right? It wasn't until I "lightened up" that I began to
enjoy it. Remember, "on the bit" is a matter of posture and has nothing to do
with the bit or contact with the bit.
Thanks for the posts on your clinic thoughts.
Ann
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>Here too - I may never find another trainer, and have to make do with
>the odd 'assessment of correctness'. But, with the marvels of
>technology we have the internet!!!!Can't you hire the horse and the
>menage and just 'play'??
Best chance is at Gregg's, I think. The concepts are not that very
different from Western fundamentals, so I'm less likely to run into a
block against French methods with a Western trainer like him--and
maybe I can pick up some other stuff, like reining, as well.
Which means I might get to play with the Weaver horse--who's already
pretty naturally light, a smart boy, and all. In a Western saddle.
But I've gotta chat with Gregg about it first.
> I played with my own mare, and when I went
>and played with someone's Medium dressage horse, for the first time in
>a while, they were astonished at the lightness, not only of the
>contact, but the overall impression. Horses really begin to RESPOND to
>this stuff quickly, even horses otherwise trained! It just makes more
>sense to them.
That is what I got from watching the horses at the clinic. They like
it, they seem to move happier and better, and they really, really seem
to want to try and cooperate.
>>Biggest thing is that for me, bit contact is rather like a whip is for
>>you--it's the touchstone, it's the line in the sand and it's something
>>I don't want to compromise on.
>What the horse responds to most willingly is my touchstone, whatever
>it's source - and less is more in their book.
Mmmhmm. For me, it's telling that I could put Guy where I wanted on a
lighter rein, under more control, and had a relaxed horse to boot.
Under the tighter rein and harder contact, I had less direction, less
control, and felt like I was trying to ride a dang racehorse because
he wanted to pull, pull, pull and run harder than ever.
But then again, I've always been one to err on the side of less
contact and lighter bits to deal with situations, even that of one
like Guy who *does* rush and pull; rather than more contact and
heavier bits, which is a big difference between me and this
instructor. Except for a period this year under the influence of this
instructor, and Porsche broke me of that foolishness. I *will* miss
the old gal, but she's in good hands right now because she's under
half-lease, and seems to be a happier horse.
jrw
WB Dare Me
I'm really enjoying this thread, guys. I wanted to make it to the JC clinic,
but just couldn't.
Lee wrote:
>>Joyce posted:>Here's a picture. The bridle had braided reins--you know, the
hunt
>seat type of reins that has thin strips of leather braided into the
>hand hold section?
ARGH! Didn't JC give the lecture about that type of rein? GET RID OF THEM!
They work against everything he is trying to convey.<<
Why? My guess is that he doesn't want the hand in a fixed position on the rein,
to let it slide if necessary, but I'd like to know for sure. Thanks.
Monika-new to Racinet, but liking him a LOT
Monika Delle, Seattle, WA, USA
**** Step Up To A Saddlebred! ****
Dare - W.B. Dare Me, western wonderhorse (beginning dressage)
Julie - Doubletree's Juliana, awesome hunt seat horse
and the Kitty Krew: Bean, Dora, Frango, Posie, Taz and Tickle
Jennifer Hazen
Eiyan wrote:
> Now you can appreciate all the controversy over the French vs. German methods
> of dressage! <g> If you are interested in competition, the German method is
> preferred there. But it doesn't sound as if you are. If you're interested in
> a horse that's responsive to light aids and a pleasure to ride, I'd go with the
> French method. While both methods claim to produce light, responsive horses,
> the German method frequently does not. It's more difficult for the rider to
> lighten the horse using opposing aids than by separating the aids. Yet the
> German method is far more prevalent in dressage circles. But at least you've
> seen the light!
>
> I learned dressage from a German source, and, like you, didn't like it at all.
> I came from a hunter/jumper background and thought my horses rode better
> *before* I started dressage - which didn't seem right. Dressage is supposed to
> improve the horse, right? It wasn't until I "lightened up" that I began to
> enjoy it. Remember, "on the bit" is a matter of posture and has nothing to do
> with the bit or contact with the bit.
> Thanks for the posts on your clinic thoughts.
> Ann
One thing to keep in mind is that there are two distinctly different german
training methodologies so dont close your mind upon hearing that someone trains the
"german" way - it just might be the light aid method that you are yearning to find!
Jennifer & Mulligatawny
Catja Pafort
>Here's a picture. The bridle had braided reins--you know, the hunt
>seat type of reins that has thin strips of leather braided into the
>hand hold section? The type most of the time you want to take a hold
>about halfway along the braid?
>
>She wanted me to shorten them up past the braided area.
Are you an orang-utan? Sorry, but from that description you must have
*awfully* long arms, Joyce ;-)
The problem with the approach you're describing is that you're told to
TAKE a contact, no matter what the horse says about it. All this will
achieve is for the horse to shorten his neck. It doesn't create any
carrying power - so you'll end up with a horse that's out of
proportion. You'll also end up with a horse who's pulling against you,
hollowing his back, and getting mighty annoyed on account of the pain
he's in.
You'll also straighten your elbows, which in turn prevents you to
follow his motions with your hand.
>At least 1
>inch into the smooth area beyond that. I felt like a friggin water
>skier, and Guy was pulling harder on me than he ever has before. I'd
>gotten him to relax at canter before--but he was pulling so hard I
>couldn't even easily turn my head to look where I was going to circle.
Yes, I can see the situation - and it's a worst case scenario. I'm
sure your instructor is well-meaning - unfortunately, she's making
matters worse. A 'contact' does NOT mean 'pull like mad.'
>Plus everything *hurt* after I climbed off. Shoulder, upper back,
>elbows, wrists, even my hands.
Bad. Especially bad for someone who's prone to arthritis, anyway. If
you're actively pulling, you're no longer following - and you're no
longer able to give soft signals.
>If I do move (and I'm thinking more and more strongly about it), it
>won't be just because of this, though. I have been thinking about it
>all summer, to be honest, because I don't agree with this instructor's
>emphasis on heavy, heavy hands.
Right you are. It's a shame, considering how much you like Porsche and
the rest of the setup - but if you're supposed to do something that so
obviously goes against your instincts (never mind against
horsemanship), it's no use spending your lessons debating. What
happens if you ignore her? What happens if you flat out refuse to hear
any references to pulling and kicking in your lessons? It takes a very
thick skin to do so, but it's possible. Most instructors will give up
on you as a hopeless case, so you might miss out on the corrections
you might need - but it can be an arrangement. Or can you manage to
ride outside scheduled lessons?
>She's very much a German dressage
>sort (and her dressage mentor is uber German styling, I asked around
>about him at the Racinet clinic) and I see nothing but conflict coming
>as I really prefer a lighter contact than she does.
My education's pretty 'German' if you view the war of the schools -
but this is exactly the kind of thing that good dressage riders
anywhere are fighting. Remember that you're NOT training with a
dedicated Dressage rider. Any sane person would prefer a lighter
contact than the pulling match you're being goaded into.
Catja
and Mork
Catja Pafort
>Salient point #1: Yes, Racinet Is An Equestrian God. As I suspected
>from past comments on rec.eq, there's a lot about this style which
>resonates with me. To some extent I think that's because some
>Baucherist elements have snuck into Western training through the Fort
>Riley manual
Goes for all cavallery training I think. There's a lot of Baucher in
the German one if you know where to look.
>Point #2: There's no way in hell I can even begin to fully implement
>everything I saw.
You're MEANT to be impressed. Demos are intended to baffle ;-)
If you took regular lessons with Racinet or anyone else, they'd teach
you from the ground up.
I see little point in the mystification of dressage: it tends to put
people off unnecessarily.
>But I can certainly understand some critiques of Racinet and
>Baucher, because if you don't know what the hell you're doing, you can
>seriously mess a horse up doing this stuff.
Seems like a dangerous approach. If I have to break off training for
what reason soever, I'm ending up with a horse that didn't get as far
as it might - but he will still be 'fully functional'. I've got time.
I can go a slower way if necessary if that means less danger of doing
harm. A good rider will know when to take a shortcut - but a novice
needs to be taught correctly and every single step.
>One very graphic image which I want to try is to visualize yourself as
>a fencer (first expressed at the canter, then later used as an image
>at walk and trot) with your inside hand as the one holding the foil.
If you've ever fenced, the image won't work. Fencing position is
completely and utterly different from the one you assume when riding.
What the two DO have in common is balance - you're ready to move off
into any direction in an instant. No leaning into the movement, but
staying centered.
>But what was very clear to me was the effect of raising the hands. At
>one point this rider had her hands up almost as high as her
>shoulders--to get some nice slowing and collection while still
>remaining light. This horse really illustrated the effect of raising
>the shoulders to tilt the pelvis.
Interesting. I think it compromises your balance if you raise your
hands - and it affects the way the bit is acting on the horse. I
should like to see this, sounds interesting.
>Horse number two was a light gray, almost white Andy. This fellow was
>working toward piaffe (and the details and nuances of this will be
>better expressed by Alice). However, Racinet rode this fellow quite a
>bit and then did a lot of in-hand work. Most interesting,
>enlightening, and nothing I'm anywhere near the skill level of doing.
In-hand work is one of the best skills you can aquire. Even if you're
nowhere near training a piaffe - it helps with all manners of things,
including square halts and transitions. The emphasis on in-hand work
is a very classical thing - something you'll rarely see in competitive
dressage, unless it's time to teach your horse to piaffe. Which, IMHO,
is nonsense.
>This horse was also fitted for
>the first time in a double bridle, and I learned something about
>proper fit of a double bridle a la Racinet.
Enlarge. What does he do differently?
>When all was said and done, this horse worked nicely at the walk and
>trot, despite some very obvious conformation problems with his neck
>(very ewe-necked fellow). From the comments around me from folks who
>saw the same horse work yesterday, the horse was working better and
>happier in the double bridle.
Not uncommon. A double (or Pelham with two reins) can help the horse
find the correct position - it's an aid in that case, but one that
only belongs in the hands of VERY skilled riders. You've got to know
exactly what you're doing - and it's too easy to avoid going back to
the snaffle.
>Riding in lightness doesn't mean you don't use your hands at all--what
>it does mean is using, then releasing the hands quickly, in a short,
>quick action, never encouraging the horse to lean on the bit.
I don't encourage a horse to lean on the bit, either. I tend to view
'leaning' as an imbalance, and will adress the inactivity behind when
a horse starts to lean. It takes two to pull - and I won't play that
particular game.
>Much of this stuff resonates with me, especially the basic principles
>and elements such as dropping down to a halt, regaining collection,
>then asking for the appropriate gait again.
This is a method that works well for some horses, and not so well for
others. It's not a universal cure. You can't get true collection at a
halt, because the horse is not moving.
>It was
>especially nice seeing that dressage does NOT have to equal tight
>reins, gaping mouths, and horses that look like they'll fall on their
>noses if you drop the reins, and who manage to remain in self-carriage
>even without the reins (for at least several strides of canter).
It's sad that this is what passes for 'dressage' in the circles you
usually move in. It's not. It's nowhere near.
Eiyan
Jennifer writes:
>One thing to keep in mind is that there are two distinctly different german
>training methodologies so dont close your mind upon hearing that someone
>trains the
>"german" way - it just might be the light aid method that you are yearning to
>find!
I have yet to see a German trainer that *advocates* heavy, unresponsive horses!
but they can still turn out that way. I think it's largely due to the system.
Riding a horse into a "containing" hand can produce a light, balanced horse -
but it's more difficult for the rider to accomplish than separating the aids.
While the end product of the German trained horse is a light, responsive
animal, the French don't want any heaviness at all. They look for lightness
during the entire training period. I've heard many German trainers say the
horse may be "heavy for a while" until he develops the strength to carry
himself.....blah, blah, blah. The biggest problem with the German method, IMO,
is the misunderstanding of the term "driving the horse". Riders will brace
their backs in order to "drive harder", and they give the horse no place to go
except against their hands. The horse needs to learn a proper response to the
leg - not just use more leg when he doesn't.
Ann
Ignatzmom
wbdareme (Monika) asked: (about JC Racinet's objection to braided reins)
>Why? My guess is that he doesn't want the hand in a fixed position on the
>rein,
>to let it slide if necessary, but I'd like to know for sure. Thanks.
>
>
Yes, that's about it. The rein must be able to slide freely in the hand,
although the hand stays in a "fixed" position relative to the horse, rider
etc. He is also totally opposed to" rubber reins or any other kind of coarse
reins"
This as a follow up to the principle of never moving your hands forward when
you want to give on the rein, but instead letting the reins slide through your
fingers.
You might want to check out his book, Another Horsemanship, for more of this.
Jennifer Hazen
Eiyan wrote:
> I have yet to see a German trainer that *advocates* heavy, unresponsive horses!
> but they can still turn out that way. I think it's largely due to the system.
> Riding a horse into a "containing" hand can produce a light, balanced horse -
> but it's more difficult for the rider to accomplish than separating the aids.
> While the end product of the German trained horse is a light, responsive
> animal, the French don't want any heaviness at all. They look for lightness
> during the entire training period. I've heard many German trainers say the
> horse may be "heavy for a while" until he develops the strength to carry
> himself.....blah, blah, blah. The biggest problem with the German method, IMO,
> is the misunderstanding of the term "driving the horse". Riders will brace
> their backs in order to "drive harder", and they give the horse no place to go
> except against their hands. The horse needs to learn a proper response to the
> leg - not just use more leg when he doesn't.
> Ann
As I say again - there are two distinctly different german training methods.
One, as you aptly state above, involves heavily driving the horse into a strong
containing hand - this was all I had seen of the german training system for may
years and simply assumed it to be the only method.
Here in America people are into immediate gratification whether it be for material
gains or in the training of the horse and rider. I think this leads to poor
training methods because since the client is paying the trainers bills but has
unrealistic expectations the client will find a trainer who can "deliver". Also
remember that in every country there are subpar trainers - Germany is not exluded
in this.
I have the priviledge to watch monthly clinics, given at the farm I keep my horse
at, with a mulit time olympian for Germany in the 60's (my instructor's
instructor). Until observing him, I wrongly assumed that all German's were over
driving and strong handed riders who forced their horses into submission this way.
As he so aptly put it when a comment was made that his techniques are more French
than German was that as long as it is correct is doesnt matter where it comes
from. How true. Maybe his training philosophies are a rarity among German's in
the US, I dont know.
I only wanted to dispel the common belief that the German system so often seen in
the US is not the only one but I may not have believed it if I hadnt seen it
myself.
Jennifer & Mulligatawny
RPM1
>> I have yet to see a German trainer that *advocates* heavy, unresponsive
horses!
I suppose that wouldn't be good advertising, eh?
>> but they can still turn out that way.
>>I think it's largely due to the system.
>> Riding a horse into a "containing" hand
IOW pushing the horse onto the bit? But you can say "containing,"
it sounds better. It still is what it is nonetheless.
>> can produce a light, balanced horse -
>> but it's more difficult for the rider to accomplish than separating the
aids.
I've always been amazed by the arm, back and leg muscles
of those riders. Personally, I just don't want to work that hard
to enjoy my hobby.
>> While the end product of the German trained horse is a light, responsive
>> animal, the French don't want any heaviness at all.
>>They look for lightness during the entire training period.
I'd rather ride one stride of pure perfection than twenty
strides of the plodding & pushing nonsense. I know that if
each session I build upon that one perfect stride I'll soon far
surpass the others and with less stress to the animal. It's a
more graceful and sensible way to train.
>> I've heard many German trainers say the
>> horse may be "heavy for a while" until he develops the strength to carry
>> himself.....blah, blah, blah.
All (sound) horses can carry themselves. They do it every day.
WE just go and cock up their balance and then make excuses
for our lame methods.
Jennifer:
>I have the priviledge to watch monthly clinics, given at the farm I keep my
horse
>at, with a mulit time olympian for Germany in the 60's (my instructor's
>instructor). Until observing him, I wrongly assumed that all German's were
over
>driving and strong handed riders who forced their horses into submission
this way.
>As he so aptly put it when a comment was made that his techniques are more
French
>than German was that as long as it is correct is doesnt matter where it
comes
>from.
What was "French" about his method? Please explain.
I hope "French Classical" doesn't become completely
bastardized by folks who claim to use this method in
effort to gain a greater chunk of change.
Much like, in my area, you can't swing a dead cat
without hitting a "Natural Horseman" guru.
Ruth CM
Catja Pafort
>Eiyan wrote:
>>> I have yet to see a German trainer that *advocates* heavy, unresponsive
>horses!
>
>I suppose that wouldn't be good advertising, eh?
No. But there are those 'trainers' that will tell people that this is
'how it must be.' I've even had one rider tell me "and, dear, if you
ever want to ride a horse on the bit, you must NEVER leave him a long
rein during your ride." Yeah, right. It explained a lot about why her
horse was utterly distrustful of the bit.
>>I think it's largely due to the system.
>> Riding a horse into a "containing" hand
>
>IOW pushing the horse onto the bit? But you can say "containing,"
>it sounds better. It still is what it is nonetheless.
Within this frame of thinking, the hand is what keeps the horse 'on
the bit.' Utter nonsense, IMHO - but I would hesitate very much to
call it a 'system' - much less 'the German system.'
>> can produce a light, balanced horse -
>> but it's more difficult for the rider to accomplish than separating the
>>aids.
>
>I've always been amazed by the arm, back and leg muscles
>of those riders. Personally, I just don't want to work that hard
>to enjoy my hobby.
Muscling a horse around (or trying to) and using the aids in
connection with each other are two different things alltogether. I
don't want to take up body building in order to ride. I don't even
want to determine every step for my horse. If there is anything about
the alleged 'German' system you should critisize than it's the idea
that the horse is using all his powers to try and escape what you're
trying to do - so you need all the aids you've got to even guide him
round a corner. (Inside leg on the girth, outside leg behind the girth
to prevent hindquarters from swinging out, inside rein slightly
shortening to position the horse, outside rein preventing outside
shoulder from falling out - and all this effort to just ride one
corner. Me, I just take my inside shoulder back...)
>>> While the end product of the German trained horse is a light, responsive
>>> animal, the French don't want any heaviness at all.
>>>They look for lightness during the entire training period.
>
>I'd rather ride one stride of pure perfection than twenty
>strides of the plodding & pushing nonsense. I know that if
>each session I build upon that one perfect stride I'll soon far
>surpass the others and with less stress to the animal. It's a
>more graceful and sensible way to train.
It's also very easy to delude yourself - in thinking 'oh, but I got a
perfect stride of this or that' it's easy to overlook that your horse
has not reached a basic standard of being able to walk, trot and
canter on both reins at every point of the arena. (I'm wearing the
T-Shirt right now <G>)
>>> I've heard many German trainers say the
>>> horse may be "heavy for a while" until he develops the strength to carry
>>> himself.....blah, blah, blah.
>
>All (sound) horses can carry themselves. They do it every day.
>WE just go and cock up their balance and then make excuses
>for our lame methods.
A horse at any stage of training can (and should!) be balanced.
However, there will be moments during which this balance is absent -
especially if the horse is learning something new, or learning to
carry himself in a manner that is *not* natural to himself. I've just
finished (sob) riding one of those - he's naturally on the forehand,
his canter in the field is stiff, with head in the air and back hollow
- he moves BETTER under saddle than left to his own! Being ridden has
helped his 'natural' balance since he's still in a stage where he
doesn't yet have superior body control. (He's six, but a late
developer, and not yet fully grown I feel.)
Jennifer Hazen
RPM1 wrote:
> What was "French" about his method? Please explain.
>
I am not well versed in the "French" training method but from what I gather it
seems to be a less driving and utilization of "lighter" aids method - a sharp
contrast from the typical German system so often seen in the US. I suppose I
can mention that the instructor I have been speaking about is Eiche VonVeldheim
(hope I spelled that right). He is based in Maryland but teaches all over the
country.
> I hope "French Classical" doesn't become completely
> bastardized by folks who claim to use this method in
> effort to gain a greater chunk of change.
> Much like, in my area, you can't swing a dead cat
> without hitting a "Natural Horseman" guru.
This whole NH thing was new to me until I read about it here on the ng. It seem
to me to be the latest "fad" to hit for people to unknowingly be suckered into -
just my HO though. Just goes back to the attitued of instant gratification -
lets send the horse to a "guru" who in one or two sessions can reform it into a
humble beast rather than taking time and patience to do it.
Jennifer & Mullgatawny
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>I'd rather ride one stride of pure perfection than twenty
>strides of the plodding & pushing nonsense. I know that if
>each session I build upon that one perfect stride I'll soon far
>surpass the others and with less stress to the animal. It's a
>more graceful and sensible way to train.
Yep.
Of course, I've managed to fall in love with yet another horse--at the
Western barn. So my leaving the hunt barn may have been
inevitable....I'm even seriously thinking the "l" word (and
contemplating just what it would take to go all the way to the "b"
word). Middle-aged QH mare, foaled this year so she hasn't been
ridden much (foal was a lovely little filly who unfortunately is dark
bay instead of Mom's gruella), gruella, extremely, extremely light.
As in barely touch the snaffle and she tucks under, barely touch the
side and she GOES.
Granted, she is just now getting back into saddle--but damn she's
fine.
jrw
RPM1
>> What was "French" about his method? Please explain.
Jennifer Hazen:
>I am not well versed in the "French" training method but from what I
gather it
>seems to be a less driving and utilization of "lighter" aids method - a
sharp
>contrast from the typical German system so often seen in the US.
It boils down to a balance *before* movement approach
as opposed to a balance *through* movement style. The
progression thru training is, naturally, quite different. "French"
trained horses will typically offer piaffe, passage and other
assorted High School movements before things like
extending the trot. BTW it's pretty awesome when you ride a
truly *self-carried* extended gait! The horse keeps himself
all together and he just glides on air with wonderfully loose
reins! Ya-hoo! Once you've gone "French" you'll never go
back. ;>
My husband and I were talking about Lightness and how
immeasurable it is. How Light is Light? I said that somewhere
in the world there is THE heaviest horse so therefore all
horses are light (compared to that one heavy beast). Patrick
said that he was impressed with my mathmatical thinking.
Me, I was just being a wise-ass, as usual. But really, I can
tell you that every horse on this property is extremely light.
The problem is that everyone's frame of reference for lightness
differs greatly.
Patrick (my hubby) gives lessons to a woman on her young Tb. The
woman thinks that her mare is light. Again, I suppose it depends on
what you compare her to. Compared to my mare, HELL no,
she's not light at all. Compared to the week before that lesson.
Yes, she's lighter. <shrug> I'm sure most people think that their
beastie is light. There should be some sort of tool that will offer
a standardized measurement of total lightness. Hmm, I feel an
amazing new product coming on. ;-> I believe that the above rider
thinks that since she allows her mare to trot along, all strung out on
loose reins that she (the mare) is light. Of course, my immediate
inclination is to put her on one of our horses so she can *feel*
the huge difference. Her mare is light to her because she doesn't
KNOW anything other than that mare. I'm impatient that way. I want
everyone to sample the lightness I'm talking about first hand. Patrick
keeps me reined in tho. :-)
>I suppose I
>can mention that the instructor I have been speaking about is Eiche
VonVeldheim
>(hope I spelled that right). He is based in Maryland but teaches all over
the
>country.
He'd be interesting to see in action. Any info. on dates &
places?
>> I hope "French Classical" doesn't become completely
>> bastardized by folks who claim to use this method in
>> effort to gain a greater chunk of change.
>
>> Much like, in my area, you can't swing a dead cat
>> without hitting a "Natural Horseman" guru.
>
>This whole NH thing was new to me until I read about it here on the ng. It
seem
>to me to be the latest "fad" to hit for people to unknowingly be suckered
into -
>just my HO though.
Yet when you break it all down it's mostly just plain old
common sense horsemanship. Someone just decides
to put a twist on it and then makes a mint. Riders are
usually so insecure with their skill(s), or lack thereof, that
they're desperate to align themselves with some Guru of
the month for validation.
Yes, we follow second manner Baucherism as well as
Racinet and others. Through these influences we have
become our own brand of horsepersons. We're Mullhauptists. :-)
Just be a brain leach for a while. Suck your instructors dry, pick and
choose from different areas, add your own twist(s) and Voila!
You're a Hazenist! :-)
>Just goes back to the attitued of instant gratification -
I, personally, think that the "French" method produces
much quicker results. I don't see the point of trotting
endlessly around an arena hoping that the horse's
ass end will someday catch up with him.
>lets send the horse to a "guru" who in one or two sessions can reform it
into a
>humble beast rather than taking time and patience to do it.
Hmmm, we just returned home to find a message on our
answering machine from someone who just "HAS to find
a home for her *gorgeous* Tb REAL QUICK! *Please* call
back!" I wonder what the story is on THIS one... :-\
I REALLY promised myself we wouldn't start collecting
everyone's rejects. Okay, okay, so we've got two plus
my mare ... as of today, that is.
Ruth, waiting for an auger to be delivered cuz we need more pasture fenced
off, CM
RPM1
>Of course, I've managed to fall in love with yet another horse--at the
>Western barn. So my leaving the hunt barn may have been
>inevitable....I'm even seriously thinking the "l"
Lease?
>word (and
>contemplating just what it would take to go all the way to the "b"
Buy?
<snip>
>Granted, she is just now getting back into saddle--but damn she's
>fine.
She sound's great, Joyce. Kewl color, too!
C'mon Joyce, join us horse-poor folk. Our
checkbook's misery LOVES company. ;->
Ruth, just don't start collecting 'em, CM
Eileen G. Morgan
wrote:
>Joyce wrote:
>>She's very much a German dressage
>>sort (and her dressage mentor is uber German styling, I asked around
>>about him at the Racinet clinic) and I see nothing but conflict coming
>>as I really prefer a lighter contact than she does.
>
>My education's pretty 'German' if you view the war of the schools -
>but this is exactly the kind of thing that good dressage riders
>anywhere are fighting. Remember that you're NOT training with a
>dedicated Dressage rider. Any sane person would prefer a lighter
>contact than the pulling match you're being goaded into.
I'll agree with Catja here, in terms of my two dressage
instructors--they were both german style, but, they neither one want
you to ride around with short reins and a ton in your hand. No gaping
mouths in m instructors barn (at least, not her horses!). But there is
a tendancy for riders to want to pull that &*^)(* head in, and I think
that misunderstood dressage is more common than good dressage.
Joyce, I've said it before and I'll say it again--it seems to me from
your comments that the quality of the english instruction you have
been receiving is not as high as the quality of western instruction.
You need to find a better instructor, one who can read human and horse
a bit better.
PS. the other week when you did that post on western riders are better
than english riders I had to be glad my server wasn't letting me post
or I would have said something nasty. I think the difference you see
might be n the quality of the barns you are riding between,
personally, rather than some weird discipline wide excellence vs.
second best.
eileen morgan
The Mare's Nest
"It is a beast for Perseus. He is pure air and fire; and the dull
elements of earth and water never appear in him, but in the
patient stillness while his rider mounts him.
He is indeed a horse . . . ." Shakespeare, Henry V
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Morgan) wrote:
snip
>Joyce, I've said it before and I'll say it again--it seems to me from
>your comments that the quality of the english instruction you have
>been receiving is not as high as the quality of western instruction.
>You need to find a better instructor, one who can read human and horse
>a bit better.
I think the biggest problem is that this instructor is young for being
a riding school head instructor (20 years old) and more impatient for
results than she wants to admit. She wants to make a name for
herself, but she's done pissed me off good. I hope she wises up soon,
because she could have a lot of potential, but I think she's headed
down the wrong direction. Disappointing, because originally she was
much better than she is now. I'd almost say she's getting sour on the
whole thing. Although she is having a lot of stress--still, it
doesn't justify taking it out on students who have an independent
streak (like me) and who want to study more than one aspect of
horsemanship.
The original instructor (the one she replaced) was much, much better
in many ways. Including the fact that she wasn't as pushy. I think
this one has gotten a bit overconfident as she's gotten adjusted to
her position.
My Western trainer is closer to my age, and *does* have some dressage
training as well. I hate to be ageist, but sometimes I think the
younger ones need some seasoning (although some of the teeners at that
barn are pretty dang good).
>PS. the other week when you did that post on western riders are better
>than english riders I had to be glad my server wasn't letting me post
>or I would have said something nasty. I think the difference you see
>might be n the quality of the barns you are riding between,
>personally, rather than some weird discipline wide excellence vs.
>second best.
Sorry, I was in a nasty and cynical mood as well as hurting pretty
damn bad. Was a rough week in more ways than one. Although I don't
recall using *quite* those terms--if it sounded that way it wasn't the
way I meant it.
I'm sure I could also find Western barns around here which would
appall me horribly (just head for a heavy-duty WP barn). However, I
think I'm gonna be pretty cautious and picky before I venture into the
world of dressage lessons. I doubt I'm going to go back to hunt seat,
unless I can find someone to convince me that I can do it without
hurting my back and hips.
jrw
Eileen G. Morgan
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>On Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:09:00 GMT, eg...@ptdprolog.net (Eileen G.
>Morgan) wrote:
>>PS. the other week when you did that post on western riders are better
>>than english riders I had to be glad my server wasn't letting me post
>>or I would have said something nasty. I think the difference you see
>>might be n the quality of the barns you are riding between,
>>personally, rather than some weird discipline wide excellence vs.
>>second best.
>
>Sorry, I was in a nasty and cynical mood as well as hurting pretty
>damn bad. Was a rough week in more ways than one. Although I don't
>recall using *quite* those terms--if it sounded that way it wasn't the
>way I meant it.
I thought it was kinda out of character, especially when you said
something along the lines of "english riders get more frustrated and
lose control more often than western riders." I was thinking what the
H*ll?!! I beg yer pardon!
But, you are allowed to be crabby and make gross generalizations once
in a blue moon without emailbombs from me. :)
I do it to sometimes.
eileen morgan, suffering from puppy lust while waiting for the new
pooch to get ready to be weaned.
susan brady
leanings toward the French notion of lightness as a goal to aspire to.
Late this spring, I had an opportunity to take two lessons at Ergon von
Neindorff's school in Karlsruhe, Germany. While two lessons were not
quite enough time to master the German system, I was never instructed to
"RIDE THAT HORSE ON THE BIT". We focused largely on being soft and quiet
on the horse with tons of transitions.
Two things struck me as I watched a half day's worth of group lessons:
1) how still the riders' legs were and, 2) the absolute softness of the
contact while the horses went forward through their backs.
I can't speak for all German instructors, but what I saw was impressive
and inspiring.
I hope to line something up next year with the Cadre Noir. I look
forward to what, if any, differences there are.
Susan
Eiyan wrote:
>
> Jennifer writes:
> >One thing to keep in mind is that there are two distinctly different german
> >training methodologies so dont close your mind upon hearing that someone
> >trains the
> >"german" way - it just might be the light aid method that you are yearning to
> >find!
>
> I have yet to see a German trainer that *advocates* heavy, unresponsive horses!
> but they can still turn out that way. I think it's largely due to the system.
> Riding a horse into a "containing" hand can produce a light, balanced horse -
> but it's more difficult for the rider to accomplish than separating the aids.
> While the end product of the German trained horse is a light, responsive
> animal, the French don't want any heaviness at all. They look for lightness
> during the entire training period. I've heard many German trainers say the
> horse may be "heavy for a while" until he develops the strength to carry
Jorene Downs
Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote
[...]
>Of course, I've managed to fall in love with yet another horse--at
the
>Western barn. So my leaving the hunt barn may have been
>contemplating just what it would take to go all the way to the "b"
>ridden much (foal was a lovely little filly who unfortunately is dark
>bay instead of Mom's gruella), gruella, extremely, extremely light.
>As in barely touch the snaffle and she tucks under, barely touch the
>side and she GOES.
>
>fine.
Joyce, this grulla mare sounds wonderful for you! So how big is she?
What bloodlines? What training background? Is she Shrake trained? And
does she have a name??? ;)
p&m
- - - - -
Jorene
just moseyin' down the trail
from the CEOates Ranch in California ... ;)
http://www.CEOates.com
meet other rec.eq posters on the Rogue's Gallery:
http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
Jorene Downs
Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote in message
<36182298...@news.aracnet.com>...
[...]
>I think the biggest problem is that this instructor is young for
being
>a riding school head instructor (20 years old) and more impatient for
>Although she is having a lot of stress--still, it
>doesn't justify taking it out on students who have an independent
>streak (like me) and who want to study more than one aspect of
OOOPs! Apparently this young instructor has a narrow focus in
training / knowledge and doesn't have the experience to value a
broader scope. Sounds almost like she's resenting your seeking
knowledge from others, which to me is a black mark because she should
*encourage* your quest for knowledge. When is the last time *she* went
to a clinic, or even to another [more experienced] trainer for advice?
IMO this attitude will really limit her growth as a horse person going
forward unless she gains that wisdom with maturity. Meanwhile, her
narrow scope of knowledge will be a big handicap for anyone like you
who wants to learn versatility and multiple disciplines. Time to move
on, Joyce!
Jane H. Kilberg
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
(snipped parts)
>I think the biggest problem is that this instructor is young for being
>a riding school head instructor (20 years old) and more impatient for
>results than she wants to admit. She wants to make a name for
>herself, but she's done pissed me off good. I hope she wises up soon,
>because she could have a lot of potential, but I think she's headed
>down the wrong direction.
I think this is a natural problem. It takes a while to learn to
"mellow-out." When I was 20, I was a terror and nothing could stop me from
doing anything. However, life did! Along the way, I learned mellowness,
though I'm still a stickler for certain things.
If instructor career were better organized around the USA, the ideal would
be apprenticeship for many years before a person could be certified as
head instructor. Courses in teaching would be required as well as annual
short courses. Teaching people isn't easy and requires lots of patience
and understanding of different types of people.
Those who begin their teaching career right after college are not head
administrators in schools. They begin their career as a junior teacher or
under probation for a period of time or an assistant professor.
--
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Morgan) wrote:
snip
>I thought it was kinda out of character, especially when you said
>something along the lines of "english riders get more frustrated and
>lose control more often than western riders." I was thinking what the
>H*ll?!! I beg yer pardon!
Huh? What?
Yeesh, I wonder if I had an evil twin lurking over the keyboard 'cause
that certainly wasn't anything I said or meant....I thought you were
perhaps referring to something I said from Racinet, which was that he
found that Western riders and jockeys seemed to pick up his system
faster....
Hmm, now I'd better start doing some looking around for a secret stash
of stuff around here--or else put in a call for COE exorcists....
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>OOOPs! Apparently this young instructor has a narrow focus in
>training / knowledge and doesn't have the experience to value a
>broader scope. Sounds almost like she's resenting your seeking
>knowledge from others, which to me is a black mark because she should
>*encourage* your quest for knowledge. When is the last time *she* went
>to a clinic, or even to another [more experienced] trainer for advice?
She does have a preferred mentor she rides with, and wanted me to ride
with him this winter when he does clinics at the hunt barn instead of
his usual place (which is apparently not optimal in a Western Oregon
winter--read, outdoor arena).
But I *have* had to endure snide comments about Western riders and
methods, and she was rather uptight when I started talking about going
to Racinet. The anti-Western attitude was fairly common at the barn,
but she seemed to have the bug worst of all of them. Plus what really
irked me is when she got started on it, she inadvertently made it very
clear she didn't have the foggiest clue about what good Western really
is. Other folks who had the bug had seen bad Western riding and they
knew it was bad, but they also freely admitted it didn't appeal to
them. So I suspect I was a target for insecurities...sigh.
I have to admit, I started looking closely at her with a critical eye
this summer when she started muttering about how little she liked
working with greenies and watching her ride a couple of them (and then
she started complaining about working with beginners, and I commented
I didn't have problems working with them because I've been doing a
little bit of that to help out Gregg during Sam's lessons). Maybe
it's just MHO, but I figure anyone who wants to be a professional
needs to spend some time working greenies, even if their later goal is
to only develop finished horses from those which already have a solid
start put on them. Same goes with beginner riders. It doesn't hurt
to know how to put a good foundation on.
>IMO this attitude will really limit her growth as a horse person going
>forward unless she gains that wisdom with maturity. Meanwhile, her
>narrow scope of knowledge will be a big handicap for anyone like you
>who wants to learn versatility and multiple disciplines. Time to move
>on, Joyce!
Yep.
jrw
Mary J. McHugh
RPM1 wrote:
>
> loose reins that she (the mare) is light. Of course, my immediate
> inclination is to put her on one of our horses so she can *feel*
> the huge difference. Her mare is light to her because she doesn't
> KNOW anything other than that mare. I'm impatient that way. I want
> everyone to sample the lightness I'm talking about first hand. Patrick
> keeps me reined in tho. :-)
>
I think it is a very good idea to let her try something really light -- I'd love
to because I'm curious as to how Wilbur would compare to a truly light horse. I
know we're light years (no pun intended) behind you guys but compared to other
horses I've ridden, Wilbur is like helium compared to their lead. The last two
horses I rode that weren't mine both felt like they'd fall ass over teakettle if
I let go of the reins, and I was practically holding the buckle. :-(
>
> I, personally, think that the "French" method produces
> much quicker results. I don't see the point of trotting
> endlessly around an arena hoping that the horse's
> ass end will someday catch up with him.
>
You know, I wish I hadn't wasted most of the time I've been riding Wilbur doing
exactly that: Waiting for the business end to catch up with him. It kinda
works... you know, you let them trot around for a couple' o hours and eventually
they get a little bit tired and you can get some work done. And because you've
let them go around without asking for anything, there wasn't any fighting.
But from the very first clinic I did with the "French" method, an amazing
difference was seen. We got to work right away and we stayed relaxed (both of
us ;-) during the entire session. It was like night and day... and easy to see
because when we would ride in the arena where we took the clinics, Wilbur was
always instantly Mr. Relaxation but when we worked at home, he was still tense.
However, it didn't take too long for him to begin to relax at home, either.
BTW, I think of Patrick each time I ride -- his descriptions and demonstrations
of a horse "falling" into an upward transition run through my brain like a
training video. Needless to say, our upward transitions have improved greatly.
:-) Of course, so have the downward ones.
Mary McHugh
To steal and modify another poster's sig:
Drink California, Kiss French, Ride French ;-)
Jorene Downs
Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote in message
>On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:49:14 -0700, "Jorene Downs"
<Jor...@CEOates.com>
>wrote:
>
>snip
>
>[...] she inadvertently made it very
>clear she didn't have the foggiest clue about what good Western
really
>is. [...]
>I have to admit, I started looking closely at her with a critical eye
>this summer when she started muttering about how little she liked
>working with greenies and watching her ride a couple of them (and
then
>she started complaining about working with beginners, and I commented
>I didn't have problems working with them because I've been doing a
>little bit of that to help out Gregg during Sam's lessons). Maybe
>it's just MHO, but I figure anyone who wants to be a professional
>needs to spend some time working greenies, even if their later goal
is
>to only develop finished horses from those which already have a solid
>start put on them. Same goes with beginner riders. It doesn't hurt
>to know how to put a good foundation on.
I figure knowing how to train (including from scratch on an unbroke
horse) and being able to teach students are two different
qualifications. Not all good trainers make good instructors, but often
riding instructors only understand how to work with a finished horse.
I agree that it is a huge advantage for the riding instructor (and
their students! <g>) if that instructor is also qualified to train.
I also think that the trainer / instructor with experience in more
than one discipline provides for a stronger foundation. Better for the
horse, better for the rider. Think of all the winning Jimmy Williams
students (and horses) who focused on going over fences, but in the
process learned both Reining and Trail! ;)
I did have a chuckle the other day when Shari was showing off Crimson
to someone interested in breeding to a Paint stallion. They went
straight from the Jumper course to the cattle pen for cutting ...
still in Jumping tack. Shari did confess that she'd first learned to
cut in an English saddle, but the lady who enthusiastically signed her
mare up for a breeding - *and* arranged to put another horse in
training - was in awe. Wish that client could have been there when -
on a dare - Shari not only cut a cow on an English saddle, but removed
the girth ... :)))
RPM1
>I think it is a very good idea to let her try something really light -- I'd
love
>to because I'm curious as to how Wilbur would compare to a truly light
horse.
Remember that you have an open invitation to stop by here
next time you're up near Ulster Co. You can hop on
Mouse and see what you think. Last time I rode her we
had fun doing piaffe, halt, 1 stride canter, halt, piaffe, halt...
All with seat aids only. She's so much fun to mess around
with!
>I know we're light years (no pun intended) behind you guys
Not really. Half the battle is just finally deciding to kick that
old push/pull habit that most of us learned.
>but compared to other
>horses I've ridden, Wilbur is like helium compared to their lead.
Wilbur sure looked damn good the day I saw him. Boy, I
just love me them big stand-up horses! Speaking of which,
we just got a call on a 12 yo bay, Tb gelding who, they claim,
stands 17hh. He was purchased for 17K and does some
garden variety high level work. The owner is basically giving him
away to a good home. We go to look at him next week. He's
been fired in both fronts, which I'm not too crazy about. We shall
see. If we got him and kept our three we'd have to feed hay
year round as our pasture can only handle 2-3. :-(
> The last two
>horses I rode that weren't mine both felt like they'd fall ass over
teakettle if
>I let go of the reins, and I was practically holding the buckle. :-(
I want a horse to make me want to ride. I mean, I/we go to
different barns and see all types of riders pushing, grinding
and muscling their horses. Big, high budget, warmbloods trotting
endlessly on the forehand and flinging themselves across the
diagonal. Yuck! I wouldn't want to ride those horses. They look so
awful, so clumsy, so heavy. OTOH I was at a gymkhana last week and I
watched a young girl ride a little appy in pole bending. They did
such a sweet job of it. I said to our friend Tom, "That little mare
just makes me want to ride!" I'm finding that I'm much more
attracted (or less revolted) by western riding as of late. Patrick,
I know, is very interested in western riding as well.
>You know, I wish I hadn't wasted most of the time I've been riding Wilbur
doing
>exactly that: Waiting for the business end to catch up with him. It kinda
>works... you know, you let them trot around for a couple' o hours and
eventually
>they get a little bit tired and you can get some work done.
I think it was Racinet who used to say (about trotting/warming up),
"Trot around for and hour, if you wish, but all you'll wind up with is
a cold horse with warm shoes." I know I'm not saying that quite right
but you get the basic idea, no?
>But from the very first clinic I did with the "French" method, an amazing
>difference was seen. We got to work right away and we stayed relaxed (both
of
>us ;-) during the entire session.
It's a bad thing if *either* of you perform with tension.
>It was like night and day...
...one of my favorite songs.
>BTW, I think of Patrick each time I ride --
=8^)
>his descriptions and demonstrations
>of a horse "falling" into an upward transition run through my brain like a
>training video. Needless to say, our upward transitions have improved
greatly.
>:-) Of course, so have the downward ones.
Good for you, and Wilbur too!
>Mary McHugh
>To steal and modify another poster's sig:
>Drink California, Kiss French, Ride French ;-)
,Fry French?
Be well,
Ruth CM and baby Andrew who is recovering nicely from
his very first (and probably not his last) cold.
Catja Pafort
>But I *have* had to endure snide comments about Western riders and
>methods, and she was rather uptight when I started talking about going
>to Racinet. The anti-Western attitude was fairly common at the barn,
>but she seemed to have the bug worst of all of them.
Stupid and shortsighted. Good riding is good riding, and since not
even Western riders can overcome the basic biomechanics of a horse
fundamental differences are more of the 'I don't like' instead of the
'it's bad for the horse' variety, methinks.
>Maybe
>it's just MHO, but I figure anyone who wants to be a professional
>needs to spend some time working greenies, even if their later goal is
>to only develop finished horses from those which already have a solid
>start put on them. Same goes with beginner riders. It doesn't hurt
>to know how to put a good foundation on.
If you can't ride a green horse, you'll be in trouble pretty quickly -
because I haven't met many horses that *didn't* need at least a
retuning of their foundations. Yes, I've ridden about half a dozen of
those - but many many more 'trained' horses that needed to be treated
as green and schooled accordingly.
Teaching green horses is fun. Never advancing isn't. Beginner riders
are something else - not everybody has the patience for them. But it
should be a matter of preference, not of inability.
look@this
>...all the controversy over the French vs. German methods
>of dressage...
Actually, you're merely referring to bickering over
misinterpretations of both.
On the closest and most scrupulous of examinations,
there's no difference.
Good riding is good riding regardless of the region
of its origin.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
look@this
>... I may never find another trainer ...
You merely need one more than you know.
Find one who can keep horses from trying
to bite while tacked without using hard
objects on horses' heads, for starters.
jkil...@mcia.com
"Spellbound" <spell...@texoma.net> wrote:
(snipped parts)
> I had a really cool day yesterday. The vet and I got to take a
>helicopter ride down to Brenham, Tx to see the convent of St. Clare, a
>Franciscan order that raises miniature horses to sell ( this was for a
>client who has lots of money to burn which is ok by me).
Neat place, eh? Did they still have that Appaloosa
stallion?
down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Kris Carroll
(Jazanot) wrote:
> Joyce asked about a new instructor who had studied with Mary Wanless. Someone
> correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mary would have "nothing" in common
> with Racinet. Totally different approach to riding, more of the move 'em
> forward till they catch the weight given by the rider.
Unless the person in question is Anne Howard - who's mom is Alexandra
Howard. In which case, the clinic is worth it's weight in gold.
Kris C.
Kris Carroll
> > Joyce asked about a new instructor who had studied with Mary Wanless.
Someone
> > correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mary would have "nothing" in common
> > with Racinet. Totally different approach to riding, more of the move 'em
> > forward till they catch the weight given by the rider.
kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll) wrote:
> Unless the person in question is Anne Howard - who's mom is Alexandra
> Howard. In which case, the clinic is worth it's weight in gold.
Especially considering Anne's background as a physical therapist with a
thorough understanding of a rider's body.
Kris
Jazanot
Joyce asked about a new instructor who had studied with Mary Wanless. Someone
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mary would have "nothing" in common
with Racinet. Totally different approach to riding, more of the move 'em
forward till they catch the weight given by the rider.
I read the "Riding From the Right Brain" book and found it "cute", more theory
than pracice; but I came away wanting to hear more. I audited a clinic a few
years ago by Mary and found her tad obsessed with driving the animals faster
than an ideal tempo would and could be adhered to. IE. she made everyone run
their horse fast and on the forehand without regard to balance. Racinet "no-no"
number one. She did go to every rider and "place" them on or in the saddle,
but I felt again as soon as the horse moved in that awful fashion the riders
lost all their standstill form. Another "no-no".
So, Joyce, keep looking. I have to say, French-smench too, some days; though I
currently work with a Frenchman, he has may views and being a Baucherist is not
totally the pinnacle to him. I think you as a rider have to find someone who
can just be a good rider first and foremost. Is there a local dressage
association you would be comfortable with asking for help? I have to admit the
average instructor even here in NE leaves me cold too, so few of them ever
expandtheir own horizon, let alone inspire new riders to excell. You do have a
long road ahead of you, been there, done that. Good luck!
Jaz,
Midnight Rainbow, Allegra, Kinzua, and Bailar del Bravio
(whew what a mouthful!)
Jazanot
BTW....My posts will contain many typos for the next few weeks, I am in the
throws of computr hell, major breakdowns and I am using an old "crappy"
powwerbook in the meantime. The type is so small I can't read it well!!!!!!
Please bear with me, a new computer may be my only salvation!! My kingdom
for a horse----or a goood Mac right now.
Eiyan
Sheila wrote concerning the French vs. German methods of training:
>On the closest and most scrupulous of examinations,
>there's no difference.
There is fundamental difference between the two methods which makes them quite
different in approach. One advocates balance through movement, the other,
balance prior to movement.
>Good riding is good riding regardless of the region
>of its origin.
That may be - but in this case, there's good French riding and there's good
German riding.
Ann
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Carroll) wrote:
>In article <19981010223811...@ng102.aol.com>, jaz...@aol.com
>(Jazanot) wrote:
>> Joyce asked about a new instructor who had studied with Mary Wanless. Someone
>> correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mary would have "nothing" in common
>> with Racinet. Totally different approach to riding, more of the move 'em
>> forward till they catch the weight given by the rider.
>Unless the person in question is Anne Howard - who's mom is Alexandra
>Howard. In which case, the clinic is worth it's weight in gold.
And Joyce completely missed Jaz's post, so I want more details....
Okay. What had appealled to me about the Wanless background was the
bodywork she describes in her books. So does that not carry over to
her training methods?
Kris, whaddya know about PDX-area trainers?
I have decided that when I start looking again next spring I am going
to be very explicit and detailed about what I'm looking for in an
instructor when I first talk to them. Right now I'm gonna stick with
Western, just because I need at least twice a week rides to keep the
hips from hurting. There just isn't anything out there that works so
well for the hip flexor muscles for me like riding does.....and with
winter coming, the goal is to keep the arthritis at bay, not seek out
a new instructor.
One thing I fully intend to be emphatic about is that I physically
cannot, cannot, cannot continuously take a heavy hold on a horse. I'm
talking bad joints and serious eczema (others may know this as atopic
dermatitis) on my hands. I can't always completely close my hands
because of the eczema (cracked skin, dry skin, tight skin), so any
instructor who demands I close my hands into fists (like my old
instructor) is out. Gloves are not an option. They drive me nuts
unless the weather warrants them. They deaden my feel on the reins
and, believe me, with the eczema I have enough reduced feeling in my
fingers as it is (alternating with extremely sensitive times). Plus
cheap gloves end up getting little bits and pieces of fabric caught in
my cracked skin, and I can't find expensive gloves to fit (big palms,
small fingers). The eczema really does require a lighter hand--and
braided reins, unless I'm riding Western, aren't a good idea either,
because they irritate my hands. I like 'em smooth and fat. Something
that can fit in the middle joint of my fingers, if need be
(fortunately not all the time, but often enough).
The eczema is probably why I've never really been inclined to ride
heavy on a horse, because it hurts me.
My shoulders, elbows and wrists also can't take a heavy contact. I'm
no out of shape wussette, can lift and lug stuff, but a long, hard,
continuous contact does damage to my joints. After that session with
a confirmed puller which led to my leaving my hunt seat instructor, I
hurt. Since that's directly affecting my income source (word
processing and jewelry), I ain't gonna compromise it.
But I do want to learn dressage--not as a competition tool, but to
make me a better horsewoman and trainer. Besides the psychological
appeal of the French methodology, coincedentally it appears to be the
method which is going to do the least amount of damage to my weak
points.
So. Any comments?
jrw
Catja Pafort
>Sheila wrote concerning the French vs. German methods of training:
>>On the closest and most scrupulous of examinations,
>>there's no difference.
>
>There is fundamental difference between the two methods which makes them quite
>different in approach. One advocates balance through movement, the other,
>balance prior to movement.
I beg to differ. It seems to me that good riders of both 'schools'
(should they exist <g>) are employing both methods in the appropriate
places. By rejecting one or the other you are dropping something
useful from your toolbox - why would you do that?
There is no single solution to all horses problems - or all the
problems of a single horse.
>>Good riding is good riding regardless of the region of its origin.
YES she says, most emphatically. Of course, it may depend on your
ideas of 'correctness' in a horse. However, I think that the horse
that moves with a supple back, engaging his hind legs (offering you
both propulsion and impulsion) and stretching over the topline is not
to be compromised on.
RRozell
Joyce,
Hello and thank you for all of your positive posts concerning my husband's (
Jean-Claude) clinic. He read with interest your overview and thanks you for
your comments.
As for looking for an instructor near you, I know of one in Northern California
who may be of some help. If you would like to have her name and phone number
please e-mail me at RRo...@aol.com
Keep up the search until you find the right instructor. And in the meantime I
would, like you, remain with the Western instructor.
Best to you.
Susan Racinet
RPM1
<snippage>
>One thing I fully intend to be emphatic about is that I physically
>cannot, cannot, cannot continuously take a heavy hold on a horse.
You'll be a truly fine rider if you don't! Your physical limitations,
though very unfortunate, may be a blessing in disguise with regards
to your riding.
>I can't always completely close my hands
You shouldn't really need to. You would do well to ride, and train
horses to be, truly self-carried. The reins just hang there loopy,
the *horse* keeps himself together and the rider just sits there
looking gorgeous. ;->
I'll email you some pics of this elusive phenomenon.
>because of the eczema (cracked skin, dry skin, tight skin), so any
>instructor who demands I close my hands into fists (like my old
>instructor) is out.
IF the beast isn't heavy, you'll do well with open and relaxed hands
while occasionally using the tip of your thumb against your forefinger
for the 1/2 second of correction that might be needed. The other
fingers will need to assist with adjustment of the reins but their use
is not in the least drastic, constant or harsh.
>Gloves are not an option.
Because the cues are so subtle, gloves just add static to the
communication line between horse and rider. As Racinet would
say, (no matter how freezing cold it was) "Would you play a piano
with gloves on?"
>The eczema really does require a lighter hand--and
>braided reins, unless I'm riding Western, aren't a good idea either,
>My shoulders, elbows and wrists also can't take a heavy contact
Your shoulders, elbows and wrists should do very little. It's the thumb and
forefinger that really run the show.
>But I do want to learn dressage--not as a competition tool, but to
>make me a better horsewoman and trainer.
>So. Any comments?
Boy, from what you describe above, it really sounds like you need
Jean-Claude. Any chance of you moving? Just kidding, sort of. :-)
It seems like you're just going to have to be a real bitch about
what you will and *will not* do and how you will and *will not* ride.
I have found that it is an extreme rarity to find instructors that
REALLY know what they're doing. They usually have 20 phrases
that they just keep spouting out and when met with a student that
doesn't fall into their mold of what a rider should be they are at a
complete loss. You need someone creative and non-rigid in their
thinking as well as in their riding. THAT, in today's flock of instructors,
is not going to be easy to find.
Are there any "Therapeutic Riding" joints in your area? Those instructors
tend to be a bit more flexible. However, their schoolies are usually heavy
and/or close to the grave. <sigh> I just don't know.
Does business ever bring you to this coast? I'm sure we could
hook you up with an intensive session here. At any rate, you need
on going support where you are. Good luck. I hope you find what
you need. Let me know if we can be of any help.
Ruth CM
Catja Pafort
>And Joyce completely missed Jaz's post, so I want more details....
Anne Howard is in California - too far to commute <g>
>Okay. What had appealled to me about the Wanless background was the
>bodywork she describes in her books. So does that not carry over to
>her training methods?
No idea. I saw part of the video the other day, and in all honesty, I
had great trouble telling 'good' from 'bad' - there were too many
things about the rider and the horse that I would have wanted to
correct first! Also, I'm not into images, my brain doesn't work that
way. By the time someone has adjusted their spinning balls, tresses,
weights, birds, and sundry other implements I've slipped from the
saddle laughing.
>I have decided that when I start looking again next spring I am going
>to be very explicit and detailed about what I'm looking for in an
>instructor when I first talk to them.
Do you need to have regular lessons, or would you mind terribly if you
were working on your own with a clinic-type arrangement?
>Right now I'm gonna stick with
>Western, just because I need at least twice a week rides to keep the
>hips from hurting. There just isn't anything out there that works so
>well for the hip flexor muscles for me like riding does...
Swimming - breaststroke REALLY helps with that particular problem. Of
course, that's not substitute for riding ;-)
>One thing I fully intend to be emphatic about is that I physically
>cannot, cannot, cannot continuously take a heavy hold on a horse. I'm
>talking bad joints and serious eczema (others may know this as atopic
>dermatitis) on my hands.
Look at it from the bright side. You're forced to be gentle - which
can only be a GOOD THING.
>I can't always completely close my hands
>because of the eczema (cracked skin, dry skin, tight skin), so any
>instructor who demands I close my hands into fists (like my old
>instructor) is out.
I don't have a physical reason for not closing my hands - but I know
*exactly* what you're talking about. I can't ride in a heavy contact
because my hands are always slightly open and any leaning horse is
going to end up on the buckle!
>Gloves are not an option. They drive me nuts
>unless the weather warrants them. They deaden my feel on the reins
Exactly. It makes a lot of difference to the communication a rider can
achieve whether he uses plain leather reins, or thick webbing reins
and equally sturdy gloves. The second to last time I rode Daffydd he
was ok - but at times he was leaning and unresponsive. The next time I
swapped his heavy webbing reins for Mork's leather ones - and hey
presto, a much nicer feeling. Somehow I don't think it was JUST the
miracle cure of me riding him the day before...
So, what is happening with the Quarter horse mare you happened to
mention? Can you get a regular lease on her? Maybe take her to a
<gasp> dressage clinic?
Catja,
who spent the weekend at a French trainer's clinic (Nationality, not
style, most of his training is Portuguese), agrees with what he says,
not what he does
and Mork (who spent the weekend in the field as usual)
Jazanot
Okay, you will have to find someone else but a Wanless student to teach you,
Joyce! <G> You wil find that even Racinet has his "enemies" in the french camp
(sorry, Susan, you know he is still controversial by the fact that he has no
articles in any of the static magazines out there now), so if you enjoy his
methods I suggest you read everything he has to say. Since he had a clinic
near you very likely he will be back at some point, clinicans tend to go back
to areas on a regular basis.
Now to you hand/grip/skin problems, there are very thin gloves out now that do
not impede hand quality to the reins. SSG is one of the major brands and I like
them exceedingly, I find no problem wearing or not wearing a glove, I prefer a
glove. Simple, plain leather reins are good too, I hardly ever have a reins
slipping problem; after you find the length of rein you need you hold it
lightly and at the same point during 99% of the ride anyway. If you are having
an issue with shoulder pain then you are pulling! A horse might be heavy for
an instant, then back to the rein you have insisted on (light and on contact)
but then he must not be asked carry your shoulders and weight. You have to
give, and roll back your shoulders and breathe downward, opening up your chest
and let your arms hang down, elbow straight to the bit. You give to the horse
through your "back" not through the weight in the reins!
This concept should be easy for a western rider, sit down and let the horse
carry his own head, if you try to hold his head back you only create tension.
Pull, pull, and you end up water skiing on the poor horse. Though I have to
admit, once a horse enjoys the person holding up their head they tend to expect
it from the rider and the rider has to be aware of the problem to change it. I
believe many people riding simply do not know they are holding their horses
together, they "think" they are riding on contact. Ah, well, I'm not going
into that with any detail right now.
I have read Racinet for years in the old D &CT (RIP), I respect him, but I find
him fairly rigid too and unwilling to accept another opinion. Maybe that is
good, maybe not, everyone must judge that for themselves. Keep looking, Joyce,
I'll ask Michel and Francois who might be out there for you, they might know
someone I am unaware of.
Regards,
Kris Carroll
> Anne Howard is in California - too far to commute <g>
Anne travels to PDX to give clinics (and else where as well). I have her
web site url around somewhere .... http://www.in-balance.com/CLINICS.HTM
(Even if you're not interested, go look at pics of Banner and Posh)
Joyce, I'll do some sleuthing and get back to you - may not be a custom
fit, but I'll find you a few options to check out. Call Linda Acheson
(503) 538-7688 or email Lach...@easystreet.com to ask some questions too.
Kris C.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>No idea. I saw part of the video the other day, and in all honesty, I
>had great trouble telling 'good' from 'bad' - there were too many
>things about the rider and the horse that I would have wanted to
>correct first! Also, I'm not into images, my brain doesn't work that
>way. By the time someone has adjusted their spinning balls, tresses,
>weights, birds, and sundry other implements I've slipped from the
>saddle laughing.
Some images work for me; others don't.
snip
>Do you need to have regular lessons, or would you mind terribly if you
>were working on your own with a clinic-type arrangement?
Gotta get a horse for that.
snip
>Swimming - breaststroke REALLY helps with that particular problem. Of
>course, that's not substitute for riding ;-)
I do swim already, however the breaststroke kick also stresses my
knees :-<. It's a delicate balance, and you're right, it's not a
riding substitute.
snip
>I don't have a physical reason for not closing my hands - but I know
>*exactly* what you're talking about. I can't ride in a heavy contact
>because my hands are always slightly open and any leaning horse is
>going to end up on the buckle!
Mmmhmmm.
>So, what is happening with the Quarter horse mare you happened to
>mention? Can you get a regular lease on her? Maybe take her to a
><gasp> dressage clinic?
Well, haven't had a chance to get back to the barn yet. Last week was
a nonriding week because the instructor was gone to a horse show for
the week (judging). Am skimming the ads to see if she's advertised,
but I think it's gonna be a case of "time will tell." If Jorene
doesn't sneak up here and buy her out from under me ;->
So I'm in a holding pattern. But Things Will Happen.
One way or another.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Joyce Reynolds-Ward typed:
>>One thing I fully intend to be emphatic about is that I physically
>>cannot, cannot, cannot continuously take a heavy hold on a horse.
>You'll be a truly fine rider if you don't! Your physical limitations,
>though very unfortunate, may be a blessing in disguise with regards
>to your riding.
Let's just say I finally realized what was behind some of my
horsemanship attitudes over the years <grin>. Jorene's discussions
about her limitations have been a great help as well, because it's
helped me pinpoint why I want what I want.
>>I can't always completely close my hands
>You shouldn't really need to. You would do well to ride, and train
>horses to be, truly self-carried. The reins just hang there loopy,
>the *horse* keeps himself together and the rider just sits there
>looking gorgeous. ;->
That's exactly what I want. What really ticked me off about that
lesson was that I had made a good start toward educating that
particular horse into what I wanted him to do with me.
>I'll email you some pics of this elusive phenomenon.
Got 'em--will look at 'em when I go off line--thanks!
>>because of the eczema (cracked skin, dry skin, tight skin), so any
>>instructor who demands I close my hands into fists (like my old
>>instructor) is out.
>IF the beast isn't heavy, you'll do well with open and relaxed hands
>while occasionally using the tip of your thumb against your forefinger
>for the 1/2 second of correction that might be needed. The other
>fingers will need to assist with adjustment of the reins but their use
>is not in the least drastic, constant or harsh.
Interesting. I tend to do more with my ring and little fingers rather
than my thumb and forefinger--although with a Western split curb rein
(neck rein) I do tend to use the thumb and forefinger.
snip
>Your shoulders, elbows and wrists should do very little. It's the thumb and
>forefinger that really run the show.
Hmm. Verry interesting. Like the idea.
snip
>Boy, from what you describe above, it really sounds like you need
>Jean-Claude. Any chance of you moving? Just kidding, sort of. :-)
No, the Carolina climate would be far too humid for me. I prefer the
cooler, drier stuff (Northern Plains/Plateau country).
Am thinking more and more about straight Western stuff, although I
want them both....I really prefer to have less leather in my saddle.
>It seems like you're just going to have to be a real bitch about
>what you will and *will not* do and how you will and *will not* ride.
>I have found that it is an extreme rarity to find instructors that
>REALLY know what they're doing. They usually have 20 phrases
>that they just keep spouting out and when met with a student that
>doesn't fall into their mold of what a rider should be they are at a
>complete loss. You need someone creative and non-rigid in their
>thinking as well as in their riding. THAT, in today's flock of instructors,
>is not going to be easy to find.
This is why I don't want to hurry into instructor shopping at the
moment. I want to gather some more information and meanwhile keep on
riding at the Western place, so I don't lose the touch. Or stumble
into the perfect lease situation.
The previous hunt seat instructor *did* know what she was doing,
more's the pity. I was learning well with her--but then she moved to
exclusively hunt/jump work, which is her specialty, and I hadn't
gotten to the level in hunt/jump where I could ride with her (plus she
didn't have school horses).
Part of the problem (waxing philosophic here) is, I think, that so
many instructors are focused on competition, and are so used to seeing
folks whose priority is competition, that when they encounter someone
who just wants to perfect their skills they don't know what to do
about it. I hope I'm wrong, but...
If I stick exclusively with Western, I can get it. The problem lies
in going outside of Western. I do think future lessons will be one
Western, one dressage. *If* I find the right dressage place. No
compromises any more <wink>.
>Are there any "Therapeutic Riding" joints in your area? Those instructors
>tend to be a bit more flexible. However, their schoolies are usually heavy
>and/or close to the grave. <sigh> I just don't know.
Hey, I just left the Therapeutic Riding joint in the neighborhood.
And Porsche is/was one of the schoolies for the Therapeutic lessons.
Although my instructor wasn't the Therapeutic Riding instructor--there
is another place, but it's further out. Don't know if it would be any
better.
>Does business ever bring you to this coast? I'm sure we could
>hook you up with an intensive session here. At any rate, you need
>on going support where you are. Good luck. I hope you find what
>you need. Let me know if we can be of any help.
One of these days I might get out your way. Hubby has clients in
Hartford, and he's been amenable to wandering other places as well.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>
>Okay, you will have to find someone else but a Wanless student to teach you,
>Joyce! <G> You wil find that even Racinet has his "enemies" in the french camp
>(sorry, Susan, you know he is still controversial by the fact that he has no
>articles in any of the static magazines out there now), so if you enjoy his
>methods I suggest you read everything he has to say. Since he had a clinic
>near you very likely he will be back at some point, clinicans tend to go back
>to areas on a regular basis.
That's the plan. So Wanless is out. Okay. The place I'm thinking of
had Oldenbergs, and from what I saw of the Oldenbergs at a dressage
show, proceed with caution was my original idea anyway.
>Now to you hand/grip/skin problems, there are very thin gloves out now that do
>not impede hand quality to the reins. SSG is one of the major brands and I like
>them exceedingly, I find no problem wearing or not wearing a glove, I prefer a
>glove. Simple, plain leather reins are good too, I hardly ever have a reins
>slipping problem; after you find the length of rein you need you hold it
>lightly and at the same point during 99% of the ride anyway. If you are having
>an issue with shoulder pain then you are pulling! A horse might be heavy for
>an instant, then back to the rein you have insisted on (light and on contact)
>but then he must not be asked carry your shoulders and weight. You have to
>give, and roll back your shoulders and breathe downward, opening up your chest
>and let your arms hang down, elbow straight to the bit. You give to the horse
>through your "back" not through the weight in the reins!
That was why I was so irritated with the instructor who insisted I
take a shorter rein on the horse. I sure don't need to be taught to
ride hard... ;-> good to hear my suspicions were confirmed.
>I have read Racinet for years in the old D &CT (RIP), I respect him, but I find
>him fairly rigid too and unwilling to accept another opinion. Maybe that is
>good, maybe not, everyone must judge that for themselves. Keep looking, Joyce,
>I'll ask Michel and Francois who might be out there for you, they might know
>someone I am unaware of.
Please do. All input is appreciated.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Carroll) wrote:
snip
>Joyce, I'll do some sleuthing and get back to you - may not be a custom
>fit, but I'll find you a few options to check out. Call Linda Acheson
>(503) 538-7688 or email Lach...@easystreet.com to ask some questions too.
Thanks, Kris.
Will do.
jrw
Jorene Downs
Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote in message <36224c58...@news.aracnet.com>...
>On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:11:48 -0400, "RPM1" <rp...@frontiernet.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Joyce Reynolds-Ward typed:
>
>>>One thing I fully intend to be emphatic about is that I physically
>>>cannot, cannot, cannot continuously take a heavy hold on a horse.
>
>>You'll be a truly fine rider if you don't! Your physical limitations,
>>though very unfortunate, may be a blessing in disguise with regards
>>to your riding.
>
>Let's just say I finally realized what was behind some of my
>horsemanship attitudes over the years <grin>. Jorene's discussions
>about her limitations have been a great help as well, because it's
>helped me pinpoint why I want what I want.
<major snip>
I confess that the discussion on vertigo helped put things in better
perspective for me, too, and increased my own awareness. Since a good many
horse problems are due to rider error, it seems logical to take a closer
look at the strengths and weaknesses of the rider. I figure we should take
into account both the education and the physical status of the rider, just
like we should with the horse.
Decent education - or the lack of it - is usually fairly obvious in horse or
rider. And certainly training / education should be ongoing for both. But
the physical status may not be as easy to identify. For example, when a
horse isn't moving quite right, you might wonder if there are health
problems, poorly fitted tack, etc. How often does that kind of perspective
get applied to the human? The human may have an "off" day that is more of a
mental issue (like being stress related), or the problem may be a physical
one that may / may not be fixable.
Consider how many posters have mentioned having a hip problem, or a bad
knee, or even one leg longer than another. Some of us have problems with our
hands, shoulders, ankles, whatever. Some have obvious physical complications
or limitations, but what about the not-so-obvious physical problems?
I figure there are 4 basic issues on the "physical" human problems (feel
free to add to the list <g>):
- Rider awareness of that problem
Ex: How often has a frustrated rider *finally* discovered that something
about their conformation is a little off, which is why the horse is
responding with X instead of Y?
- Instructor / Trainer awareness of the rider's problem
Ex: How often does the riding instructor see the "off" horse, but fail to
inquire / notice the "off" in the human? And how often does the student make
a point of mentioning a physical problem they consider to be minor?
- Rider-horse communication that may be affected by the rider's problem
Ex: Consider how a subtle rider weight shift can act as a cue ... but what
if the human's physical problem *starts* them in a shifted weight position?
- Rider limitations
Ex: Just as each horse will have certain physical limitations, so will each
rider.
I don't have the time to develop this line of thought thoroughly, but in
general it seems to me that increased awareness of possible rider physical
problems might make a difference for a lot of riders. And the riding
instructors might make a point of exploring rider weaknesses and finding
ways to compensate, or work around the problem. All more easily accomplished
with a horse that is a good match for that rider, of course. ;)
Jorene Downs
>>mention? Can you get a regular lease on her? Maybe take her to a
>><gasp> dressage clinic?
>
>Well, haven't had a chance to get back to the barn yet. Last week was
>a nonriding week because the instructor was gone to a horse show for
>the week (judging). Am skimming the ads to see if she's advertised,
>but I think it's gonna be a case of "time will tell." If Jorene
>doesn't sneak up here and buy her out from under me ;->
I'd love to have a quality QH broodmare that is a grulla, but you're safe
right now, Joyce. <g> We're shopping for a couple of truckloads of hay, and
we're saving what we can for quality breedings after the first of the year,
so I sure don't have any spare cash for horse shopping! ;-/
However, every horse we've bought in the past 2 years has ended up
designated for the Ranch! Gold Bar is definitely retired, so I still don't
have a horse just for *me.* If the right gelding was to come along ... not
breedable so we can't get tempted <g>, solid color so I can ride Posse
parades again, quality but not so "really talented" that the horse will get
turned over to Christi or Shari for training and serious showing ... just a
*good* calm Western horse for *me* ... maybe a BS Paint gelding to keep the
budget way down (and avoid the NFQHA lure <g>) ... a horse that could double
as a CEOates Ranch lesson horse to help justify the investment ... well ...
I'd be sorely tempted to dig deeper in the wallet ... ;-/ Alternatively,
I'd wave a magic wand and turn Tess' red dun colt into a broke 3yo. I've
been kinda hiding him when people come horse shopping ... <innocent smile>
Kris Carroll
> have a horse just for *me.* If the right gelding was to come along ... not
> breedable so we can't get tempted <g>, solid color so I can ride Posse
> parades again, quality but not so "really talented" that the horse will get
> turned over to Christi or Shari for training and serious showing ... just a
> *good* calm Western horse for *me* ... maybe a BS Paint gelding to keep the
> budget way down (and avoid the NFQHA lure <g>) ... a horse that could double
> as a CEOates Ranch lesson horse to help justify the investment ... well ...
> I'd be sorely tempted to dig deeper in the wallet ... ;-/
Another good example of *Mom comes last*
Shame on you Jorene!
Kris C.
Dr Corinne B Leek
>*good* calm Western horse for *me* ... ........... Alternatively,
>I'd wave a magic wand and turn Tess' red dun colt into a broke 3yo. I've
>been kinda hiding him when people come horse shopping ... <innocent smile>
Innocent??
You???
Hah.
Corinne, skeptic...
Troika, plotting a heavy coat of mud for tomorrow...
Jazz, who's gonna get work with Tracy starting next week...
Toby, TIBD, hating the thunder and lightning storm...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Jorene Downs
Dr Corinne B Leek wrote in message
<362772f6...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>...
>"Jorene Downs" <Jor...@CEOates.com> wrote:
>
>>*good* calm Western horse for *me* ... ........... Alternatively,
>>I'd wave a magic wand and turn Tess' red dun colt into a broke 3yo. I've
>>been kinda hiding him when people come horse shopping ... <innocent smile>
>Innocent??
>You???
>Hah.
Well, perhaps not really "innocent." <WEG> But that Zippo Pine Bar red dun
colt was a pocket pony from the moment he hit the ground, is calm like his
dam, and moves just as flat and smooth as his bloodlines say he should.
<drool> I've made a point of *not* giving him a barn name. But I'll confess
that while I'll use his gorgeous head shot as a promo pix, I don't mind at
all if people forget to ask where he is and look at the other horses for
sale. <WG> Problem is, I don't want to wait another 2 years for a horse!
;-/
Jorene Downs
Kris Carroll wrote in message ...
Hmmm. Kinda. It isn't like I don't throw a saddle on Blu! But it isn't
quite the same when the horse(s) I'm particularly interested in are either
in training for serious competition, or are dedicated broodmares because
they put the best foals on the ground. Remember that I'm a partner in
CEOates Ranch with Christi, so it is more like "business comes first." But
when the time comes, I do intend to be real picky about the gelding that
lands in the barn with *my* name on him after investing so much in quality
for our other stock! <WG>
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<Jor...@CEOates.com> wrote:
snip
>I'd love to have a quality QH broodmare that is a grulla, but you're safe
>right now, Joyce. <g> We're shopping for a couple of truckloads of hay, and
>we're saving what we can for quality breedings after the first of the year,
>so I sure don't have any spare cash for horse shopping! ;-/
Well, Gregg just sold a gelding down south to LA, so I play my cards
easy. Gotta convince the hubby of the value, first. But this is
really the first one I've encountered that I really want--even more so
than old Porsche. I liked Porsche, but she's been used hard and it
shows. She'd be a pet, but I can *ride* Copy.
Gregg really put me through a tough workout on Wednesday, but unlike
after the hunt seat hard lessons, the ouches weren't in places which
made me nervous (like joints). It was a tough one for Copy, too, but
he put someone else up on her today and she was much improved. So I
did her some good, which is always nice to hear. It's also good to
hear that she's one who settles into the work routine if she's not
allowed to get away with any b.s. However, one factor I'm considering
about purchasing her is time. She's definitely one of those
middle-aged QH mares who needs lots of wet saddle blankets to keep in
shape physically and mentally. Lotsa getup and go, and she's an
opinionated (read, alpha) girl. But she's had a good training
foundation.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<Jor...@CEOates.com> wrote:
snip
>I don't have the time to develop this line of thought thoroughly, but in
>general it seems to me that increased awareness of possible rider physical
>problems might make a difference for a lot of riders. And the riding
>instructors might make a point of exploring rider weaknesses and finding
>ways to compensate, or work around the problem. All more easily accomplished
>with a horse that is a good match for that rider, of course. ;)
This sort of thing (exploring and working with rider weaknesses) is
what fascinates me more about Mary Wanless and Sally Swift than any
specific horse technique they offer.
I really, really had this one hammered into me tonight when I took
over an adult beginner lesson for Gregg (older woman, third ride).
Nice middle-aged lady, like me. Rode all slumped over (I tactfully
suggested at the beginning of the lesson that ladies built like us had
to chronically battle a difficult problem and modeled the slump for
her, then its correction), and toward the end of the lesson she was
collapsing so hard to one side I was afraid she was gonna fall off. I
rode behind her for a ways (I'd just finished Sam's and my lesson and
was giving Weaver the Ayrab a lesson in standing still and working at
being a quiet instructor horse) and she was so badly slumped to one
side that there was a three inch difference in her stirrups.
We talked it through a little bit and I used an image from Wanless (or
maybe it was Swift) about thinking about the seatbones as an electric
plug, and plugging herself into the seat, plus centering her belly
button on the saddle horse. Between the two of them it really worked.
But she was really having steering problems in one direction, and it
was the direction where she kept on sagging to the outside. And it
was definitely a fatigue effect.
I didn't feel like I really did anything spectacular with her (not
like having a kid get the light about the importance of the seat and
very light hands), although afterwards she thanked me for giving her
some things to think about. I *did* stress throughout that
conditioning was an issue, and she shouldn't get too discouraged in
these early stages because she was just training some muscles.
But this whole thing really slammed through in my mind the need for an
instructor to consider rider weaknesses within a lesson.
jrw
Dr Corinne B Leek
> But this is
>really the first one I've encountered that I really want--even more so
>than old Porsche. I liked Porsche, but she's been used hard and it
>shows. She'd be a pet, but I can *ride* Copy.
........
>Lotsa getup and go, and she's an
>opinionated (read, alpha) girl. But she's had a good training
>foundation.
<Still croaking, coughing, but in a hypnotic whisper, the chant goes
up....>
Buy the horse, Joyce, You know you wanna... Buy the horse, Joyce...
You know you love her... Buy the horse, Joyce... You know you
oughtta.... Buy the horse, Joyce... Get poor like us....
Join us, Joyce... Buy the horse.... You know you're gonna....
Troika, Jazz and Toby, still in circle, chanting....
Alwzhorsn
>You know you love her... Buy the horse, Joyce... You know you
>oughtta.... Buy the horse, Joyce... Get poor like us....
>Join us, Joyce... Buy the horse.... You know you're gonna....
>
>Troika, Jazz and Toby, still in circle, chanting....
>--
Quick! burn some incense (dried road apples work nicely), do some chanting,
summon thee great horse buying gods, oooom, oooom, oooom....
jennifer
alwz...@aol.com