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Textture like paint ...

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cb <cb

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Jan 29, 2001, 3:22:06 PM1/29/01
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Here is something that happened to me on the weekend.

I was making a red kit wine last week and after 6 days, the sg dropped
to about 1.012 in the primary fermenter. I then racked it into my
carboy and put an airlock on it. It bubbled slowly which is what I
expected. The next day I went to check on it and there was a bit of a
mess. Overnight, the fermentation became more active and created a
'foam' that rose up and went through my airlock (the old style S
bubble kind) and it reached the top where the air would splatter
whatever was in the top bowl. Needless to say, it made a nice design
over two walls and the floor. I probably lost about an inch of wine
from the neck of the carboy. The wine that dribbled down the side
formed a pool on the bung. The texture was like paint, really
strange. Other than what came with the kit (oak), I added 1/3kg of
raisins and some grape tanin as an experiment. I stirred the primary
every day and checked the SG every 2 days. What I am trying to figure
out is why was this foam formed and why, when it coagulated again, had
a really syrupy/paint like texture? The only thing that I could think
of was that I had not properly stirred the concentrate which distorted
my hydrometer readings, so I therefore placed a still active
fermentation in the carboy? I highly doubt this and am sure that it
was mixed well. As of that night, it was bubbling away quite fast but
the foam had subsided. Anyone have any suggestions or clues to what
happened? Even stranger is that I placed it in a colder spot when I
transferred from the primary to the carboy...

-Chris

J Reiter

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Jan 29, 2001, 3:52:45 PM1/29/01
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_WHY_ did you add raisins!??!!

It would appear that a common theme among newbies, when making a kit is to
add raisins (yech!). Now, please don't take this personal CB. You don't
apear to be the only one to do this sort of mis-use of a kit. If this was
among your first kits to do, I would have advised you against this addition.
For one, they are not vinifera. Raisins are seedless table grapes. In my
not-so-humble-opinion they tend to screw things up more than they add to
anything except a good oatmeal cookie.
Yes, your paint-like substance is from the raisins. So the next time you
do a kit, when its recipe says to add X-number parts of water, hold back on
one part of the water and do your acid test, pH, hydrometer testing and see
where your numbers are at. If your numbers are overloaded, then add the last
part of water or gradually add it. Kits come with a 'recipe' and ususally a
concentrate to which you must add water. Sometimes the amount of water
called for is too much and leaves you with a thin, weak wine. Hence the
popular conception to add raisins and 'beef up' the wine. Blech! Pa-tooey!
It adds unnecessary sugar and can screw up your TA and pH. Please don't add
raisins anymore (except to maybe a fruit wine) to a grape wine kit. You may
still proceed with what you have already, and tell us how it came out. But I
am not surprised at what your carboy contents are doing.
If you really want to make a good wine from a kit, stick to what is in
there and perhaps add ML when your sulphite levels are down to 15ppm -if you
are doing a red or a chardonnay or chablis. If you add raisins, you will
wind up with 'kit vinifera and table-raisin wine'. Yuck. Takes away from the
pinache.
Joanne

cb @interlog.com> wrote in message
<46jb7tcc32umqp249...@4ax.com>...

Guy

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Jan 29, 2001, 4:45:03 PM1/29/01
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"J Reiter" <jmre...@gte.net> a écrit dans le message news:
xKkd6.1120$Jx3.2...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
SNIP...

> So the next time you
> do a kit, when its recipe says to add X-number parts of water, hold
back on
> one part of the water and do your acid test, pH, hydrometer testing
and see
> where your numbers are at.
> If you really want to make a good wine from a kit, stick to what
is in
> there and perhaps add ML when your sulphite levels are down to
15ppm -if you
> are doing a red or a chardonnay or chablis. SNIP

I doubt that Chris has the means or knowledge to perform the tests you
mentioned.

By the way, it's quite possible his must would have overflown even
with no raisins added IMHO.

Guy

J Reiter

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Jan 29, 2001, 5:53:01 PM1/29/01
to
Guy,
even a red wine must from a kit does not produce the kind of stuff CB was
describing. I've done kits before. Adding 'extras' (other than ML to a red
wine kit), judging from the experiences from others, is not a good thing.
Especially so, if you are a beginner. And just about any winemaking shop
supplies hydrometers and/or acidity kits with their basic equipment starter
sets. It is not unreasonable to point out a better method to avoid the
madness. Yes, CB's must overflowed, but he had taken a measurement (I refer
you to the origianl post) which indicated that he could rack. What he didn't
count on was the overflow. But then, he had added something that was not in
the original kit. I stand by my advice of not to add raisins to a grape-wine
kit (big caveat here) unless you know what you are doing and will make a
product that you want.

Joanne
Guy wrote in message ...

SchlossGoist

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Jan 30, 2001, 1:13:49 AM1/30/01
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cb @interlog.com> <cb<nospam> wrote in message
news:46jb7tcc32umqp249...@4ax.com...

> Here is something that happened to me on the weekend.
> ...snip...

----------------------

Hi Chris:

Your overflow was almost certainly caused by a combination of three factors:
1. Excessive solids present in the must from the raisins,
2. The oak powder/chips blocking the airlock, &
3. Most importantly: The large dose of oxygen which was given to the yeast
when you racked the wine at Brix 3. The oxygen re-invigorated the yeast
causing a brief renewal of the plosive stage of fermentation.

IMO, racking a wine before a Brix reading of 0 (SG 1.000) or lower is never
a good idea. Unfortunately, kit makers have promoted this protocol because
it assists in the clearing & the degassing of the wine (IOW, shortens the
time needed to get to the finished product).

From now on, I would recommend either racking from the primary when the SG
is below 1.000, or, better yet, perform the entire fermentation from start
to finish in a carboy (leaving enough headspace to prevent overflows
early-on).

The "syrupy/paint like texture" of the overflow is caused by the sugar
present in the must. IOW, the water in the overflow evaporated & left you
with syrup (a must with a Brix of 3 has about 4.5% sugar!)

Good luck with the kit. Please keep us posted.

Prosit:
Ed
--
The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary - http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq

"I like on the table, when we're speaking,
The light of a bottle of intelligent wine."
-Pablo Neruda

SchlossGoist

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Jan 30, 2001, 1:18:38 AM1/30/01
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J Reiter <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:xKkd6.1120$Jx3.2...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...

> _WHY_ did you add raisins!??!!
>...snip...

> For one, they are not vinifera. Raisins are seedless table grapes.
>...snip...

---------------------

Hi Joanne:

Although I completely agree with you that it is not a good idea to add
raisins to a good wine kit, I wanted to point out that all of the seedless
table grapes used to make raisins are, indeed, members of the vinifera
family of grapes.

Also, I have had very good results when adding a small amount of table
grapes (Flame & Perlette are probably the best) to a concentrate
fermentation.

cb <cb

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Jan 30, 2001, 8:03:06 AM1/30/01
to
Well in response to my question I seemed to have raised a few
passionate responses about experimenting with kit wines. There are
still a few more things that I must add ...

The kit in question was the cheapest Wine Art kit I could find and
experiment on. It was a 'house red', and who knows what grapes wound
up in the concentrate? In order to improve my skills, I decided that
I was at the point to experiment with the wine. I was trying to
attain a larger 'mouth feel' like a new world Cabernet. I figured
that by adding something that created body, I might attain something
less watery. After some book and newsgroup reading, there seemed to
be a consensus that by adding seedless raisins (and I guess certain
types of table grapes), boiled banana, banana flakes or elderberries
helped increase the end result. I was leaning towards the banana idea
but found very litte concrete information on it so I decided to go
with the raisins. It is still somewhat logical but a bizarre idea
that by adding dried (and sulphited?) grapes, you can attain .. what
is the word? some sort of maceration? with the kit wine? Of course I
realize that it would be impossible to attain something like a full
bodied red wine using a cheaper concentrate kit but I wanted to see if
I could just improve it by a certain degree. Also, this wine is not
my long term wine, I have plenty of that taking up floor space right
now. This wine was meant to be bulk aged from 3 to 6 months and used
as general sfuso, or table wine (especially for the wife).

So in the end, what would you (or anyone else) do to beef up a cheap
wine kit? I only made it for 19 litres, instead of the recommended 23
litres. I still figured I could push it a little more by adding some
extras like raisins and tanin. I could tell you how this turns out,
but you will have to wait at least 3 months :)

As for the T.A., I did a test after 6 days and it was about 4 g/l.
Seems really low if you ask me but I figure the kit was produced with
the proper acid already set so I didn't let it bother me. And there
is the possibility that there may have been some human error in my
test. As for the pH, I did not test that because I am currently in
need of some new calibration solution (which is explained in a
previous post about my fruit wines).

I think I am leaning towards SchlossGoist and the comments about the
oxygen being added during racking invigorated the yeast being the main
culprit. Next time I will wait until it is around 1.000.

Any help would be appreciated in correcting or adding to what I had
just typed. I am a curious one I try to understand all the aspects of
the process and strive to constantly improve and appreciate all
comments ...

-Chris

J Reiter

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Jan 30, 2001, 11:15:26 AM1/30/01
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Hi Ed,
Lum already corrected me, privately. But thanks for posting that info. I
still don't recommmend adding raisins to anything unless you know what you
are doing. Kits take a lot of the thinking out of winemaking, and as such, I
don't recommend additions.
Joanne

SchlossGoist wrote in message ...

J Reiter

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Jan 30, 2001, 11:23:51 AM1/30/01
to
Chris,
well, I didn't mean to bowl you over with my 'passionate response', but
glad to hear that you are not the greenhorn newbie. You did fine with the
kit, up until you added raisins......(we'll leave that subject alone today).
Witholding the last portion of water to the kit was the right thing to do,
and take your measurements to make sure you were on track was fine. That's
the common advice for anyone who's doing a kit. In my experience, that is
about the only way you can 'beef up' a cheap kit. Witholding the last
portion of water helps to keep flavors concentrated. Ed's comments about
when to do the first racking are on target, too. As for what to do with the
stuff now, your best bet is to let it go through fermentation, and keep us
posted.
Joanne
cb @interlog.com> wrote in message ...

Jack Webb

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Jan 31, 2001, 8:58:01 PM1/31/01
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I guess my questions would be... "You did make this wine
before, so you'll be able to compare your recent creation to
your previous batch, right?" Or "Did you just think you could
improve on something for which you had no baseline?" And if
so, "How do you know if you did a good thing?"


"cb @interlog.com>" <cb<nospam> wrote in message

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