Bolting down milling machine??
Johan
of 3000 lbs.
What would you suggest: bolt it down to the concrete floor or just stand
it on 19mm fibreboard to take up any unevenness of the floor?
At this stage I do'nt envisage taking really heavy cuts...basically just
the average HSM hobby type usage.
TIA
Johan
Posting from sunny South Africa
Bob & Marilyn Tonkins
Suggest using isolation mounts. Not bolting. If you make your own, use
HARD rubber and WAY oversize washers.
BobT
mle...@my-deja.com
Johan <jo...@maties.sun.ac.za> wrote:
> I have just bought a Kondia FV1 milling machine weighing in the region
> of 3000 lbs.
> What would you suggest: bolt it down to the concrete floor or just
stand
> it on 19mm fibreboard to take up any unevenness of the floor?
> At this stage I do'nt envisage taking really heavy cuts...basically
just
> the average HSM hobby type usage.
> TIA
>
> Johan
> Posting from sunny South Africa
>
mill one day. And he had to move the head to the side to get to the
section he needed to cut. And over went the mill.
And no matter where in the world you are, earthquakes are a possiblilty.
Not wanting to have to pick up my mill and repair my broken heart, I
bolted mine to the floor with a couple of 10,000 lb. anchors. Unless
the floor rips out, it is not going anywhere.
First, level the mill to the floor with metal shims. Then bolt it solid
to the floor and capture the shims.
Its only a couple of hours for a lot of piece mind.
Mike
Lagun mill
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Johan
Have decided to make a sub-foundation in the existing concrete floor
getting this level and then bolt the machine down on that.
Johan
Posting from sunny South Africa
mle...@my-deja.com wrote:
Edward Haas
woods, but if you live in earthquake country, IMO it's better to let a mill
"dance". Sliding, as opposed to toppling as it were. I have watched mine do
just that and I shudder to think of that thing being bolted down and having
the wrong bolts tear out....
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Deep in my guts
Watch link rot in action! : I know I'm nuts...
http://www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
PumaRacing
Dave Baker at Puma Race Engines (London - England) - specialist cylinder head
work, flow development and engine blueprinting. Web page at
http://members.aol.com/pumaracing/index.htm
Eastburn
I live on the pacific plate. The North American plate is a couple of miles
to the East of me. If a heavy machine is down tight - when the floor
(concrete)
rolls in a wave function - yes it has crests like water - the ripple would
do all sorts of nasty things to a long lathe. I'd rather have it
dance and buck around if needed - I haven't yet - I think I want to put a loose
chain on it - so it won't topple (without taking the wall ;-) .)
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Allan Adler
> If a heavy machine is down tight - when the floor
> (concrete)
> rolls in a wave function - yes it has crests like water - the ripple would
> do all sorts of nasty things to a long lathe. I'd rather have it
>dance and buck around if needed -I haven't yet - I think I want to put a loose
> chain on it - so it won't topple (without taking the wall ;-) .)
What would be wrong with using some of the same techniques
they use to protect buildings against earthquakes? I don't
know much about it but my impression is that they enable the
building's foundations to resettle if necessary without breaking.
I think one classic example was a Japanese hotel designed by
Buckminster Fuller. Apart from the design of the foundation,
there was a swimming pool on the roof and part of the design
concept was that the pool would supply water to put out any
fire caused by the quake. When the quake came, that is exactly
what happened, I'm told. I don't know how much of this is true.
Allan Adler
a...@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
****************************************************************************
* *
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial *
* Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect *
* in any way on MIT. Morever, I am nowhere near the Boston *
* metropolitan area. *
* *
****************************************************************************
Michael Neverdosky
and
bolt the machine to an isolated foundation.
Yes, it is a big expensive job but cannot be beat for best performance
of the machine and ability to resist disturbance from outside vibration.
The are many big machines that require special foundations and proper
grouting for proper operation.
An example is the 1" X 30' mild steel shear I worked on once.
michael
Eastburn wrote:
>
> Right Ed -
> I live on the pacific plate. The North American plate is a couple of miles
> to the East of me. If a heavy machine is down tight - when the floor
Steve Carlisle
use hockey pucks for the rubber part. Works great on my mill.
Steve Carlisle
On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 08:12:02 -0700, Bob & Marilyn Tonkins
<bton...@cmc.net> wrote:
>Johan,
> Suggest using isolation mounts. Not bolting. If you make your own, use
>HARD rubber and WAY oversize washers.
>BobT
>
>Johan wrote:
>>
>> I have just bought a Kondia FV1 milling machine weighing in the region
>> of 3000 lbs.
>> What would you suggest: bolt it down to the concrete floor or just stand
>> it on 19mm fibreboard to take up any unevenness of the floor?
>> At this stage I do'nt envisage taking really heavy cuts...basically just
>> the average HSM hobby type usage.
>> TIA
>>
Eastburn
People walking up stairs and such would shake the other end (Semi fab)
that there would be errors in exposure. That was 20 years ago.
We designed IC's using PCB layout tape.
Now - sub micron - 0.18u at the moment.
But you don't understand the problem I guess - it isn't stability of the
machine. In an earthquake, the floor of concrete (streets, etc.) waves like
water or a flag. Wanta play crack the whip or is that tail stock ?
If the head is bolted tight and the foot dropped or raised 2" - what would
the WAYS do ? It would rip the lathe out of the bed and legs likely.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Eastburn
you would have to have flexible pipe connections with plenty of stretch.
(Kinda like a house boat but more so.)
Mounting it on springs is the other method. Much the same problem.
My house is pier and beam. The piers are 8' (2.6M) deep. Wood construction.
Every exterior wall is a shear wall - Ply covered.
Every 16-18" is bolted to the reinforced concrete parameter wall.
We went through a 7.2 (it was 8.4 in first measurements) - it was
centered about 5 miles south of us. San Francisco is 75 miles or so north.
da you remember the """"San Francisco"""" quake of '89.
No damage to the house. Driveway rotated towards the west on the northern
edge.
(about 3/4").
The entire property moved 7' or 2M to the north west from prior position.
So my lathe sits on leveling washers on a 6" think slab just over a 8x12 beam.
Keeping our fingers like they should be.
Michael Neverdosky
not going to wave, ripple, or distort the same as the rest of the
ground.
It will basically be floating in the ground.
Now if the machine is 30+ feet long you might have a problem, but for
the size of machines ordinary people have at home an isolated foundation
can be plenty rigid to ride out any earthquake that your shop will
survive.
After everything stops moving you still need to check level and
alignment.
I used to live and service machinery in So. Cal. and I have been through
a few earthquakes.
michael
Eastburn
The isolaton slots around the "massive pier" would have to be several inches
wide.
Maybe filled with a plastic honeycomb to fill in the crack - keep out tools,
feet...
Then Just how deep must they go - to keep out of the 'jump zone'
(like frost zone up north). For me - to match existing piers - 8' - slides
also
to be considered - something like 16' x footprint block of $$concrete.
I think I'll let it scratch up the floor.
My driveway rotated in '89 - I don't want my lathe to become off axis with my
shop!
Martin (partly in jest - and some logic) Eastburn
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Edward Haas
high-rise from toppling it can probably do the same for a top-heavy lathe.
The top-chain idea sounds like a good idea too, but I'm not sure how one
would rig it so that it wouldn't be in the way all the time.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another Luddite
Watch link rot in action! : using pine and tin...
Mike Graham
> --An isolated foundation makes a lot of sense. If it can keep a
>high-rise from toppling it can probably do the same for a top-heavy lathe.
>The top-chain idea sounds like a good idea too, but I'm not sure how one
>would rig it so that it wouldn't be in the way all the time.
A chain from the lifting bolt on top to the ceiling with maybe a foot of
slack or so should be no grief at all. Sounds like a great idea.
--
Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca
Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto).
Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles.
Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy.
< homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon >
Eastburn
Since I don't have a crane eye - I'll figure something out from each leg pair -
enclosed with X web - to a central point under the lathe. Kinda limit the
range
of motion if it starts to dance. Have to think about tipping if the chain is
to long.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Mike Graham
>I think Mike hit it on the head - I'm thinking of just the opposite -
>Since I don't have a crane eye - I'll figure something out from each leg pair -
Your machine doesn't have a lifting eye? And no provision for one? What
kind of machine is it?
>enclosed with X web - to a central point under the lathe. Kinda limit the
>range
>of motion if it starts to dance. Have to think about tipping if the chain is
>to long.
Sounds like leverage is going to be working against this setup unless the
chains are pretty tight, indeed.
Eastburn
Something larger than a laptop, but smaller than a Full size one. :)
I saw the big one on one of the fix-up shows - turning 12' or so
limestone/marble columns.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Mike Graham wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:16:38 -0700, Eastburn wrote:
> >I think Mike hit it on the head - I'm thinking of just the opposite -
> >Since I don't have a crane eye - I'll figure something out from each leg pair -
>
> Your machine doesn't have a lifting eye? And no provision for one? What
> kind of machine is it?
> --
Bertho Boman
floor moves horizontally. Is it not likely that the mill just will
slide sideways instead of tipping.
Now if there are pins in the floor to try to anchor the mill, it will
try to topple instead since it can not slide. Now the question has
become: Are the pins strong enough not to be pulled out or break?
By the way, the wave motion that is referred to, how many degrees tilt
are we talking about? 1-5-10-45?? Enough to topple a mill? How many
degrees is that?
Just trying to learn, not much application for this knowledge in
Florida ....
Bertho Boman
=====================================
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 20:03:01 -0700, Eastburn <old...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
Mike Graham
>What machine - 11x44 Sheldon. Total length about 4.5'.
>Something larger than a laptop, but smaller than a Full size one. :)
Oh, okay. I was thinking of mills. I can see how a lathe would be a
different thing entirely. I was *wondering* why your mill had legs... 8-)
--
Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca
Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto).
Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles.
Mike Graham
>I definitely do not know enough about the subject but let's assume the
>floor moves horizontally. Is it not likely that the mill just will
>slide sideways instead of tipping.
The ground hardly ever moves side-to-side enough to make a piece of
equipment move by that alone; it's the vibration that causes it to 'walk'
like when you leave something on top of an audio speaker.
>By the way, the wave motion that is referred to, how many degrees tilt
>are we talking about? 1-5-10-45?? Enough to topple a mill? How many
>degrees is that?
The angle isn't the danger, it's the force imparted that causes the
equipment to 'jump'. Lifting up one corner of a mill 2" might not cause it
to tip, but if you lift that corner 2" fast enough, it will keep going up
and over. That's the worry.
Glenn Neff
Boman) writes:
>I definitely do not know enough about the subject but let's assume the
>floor moves horizontally. Is it not likely that the mill just will
>slide sideways instead of tipping.
>
Well when you start with an invalid assumption the rest follows it out the
window. Earthquakes send waves through the earth. That's why the idea of
chaining something really heavy to the roof sounds like a good way to pull down
the roof. When the part on the ground is going one way the part in the air
would be going the other way.
Glenn Neff
Medford OR
Robert Bastow
Oh how we HSMs love to sweat the small stuff!
I would imagine that, in the case of a 'quake severe enough to knock over a
Bridgeport, one is going to have other, far more important things to worry
about!!
Teenut
mle...@my-deja.com
mikeg...@sprint.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 18:43:12 -0700, Eastburn wrote:
>
> >What machine - 11x44 Sheldon. Total length about 4.5'.
> >Something larger than a laptop, but smaller than a Full size one. :)
>
> Oh, okay. I was thinking of mills. I can see how a lathe would be
a
> different thing entirely. I was *wondering* why your mill had
legs... 8-)
>
> --
> Mike Graham
>
Red Head anchors. If it goes over I have lots more to worry about than
just the mill.
Another reason for anchoring happened to a good friend. He had a large,
heavy part to machine. The detail he wanted to machine was at one end
of the table, so he rotated the ram to the side where he wanted to
machine. Oops, it started to tip. He shoved the ram back and jumped. We
both watched as the mill rocked to and fro' before settling back down.
We both have our mills anchored to the floor now.
I thought about strapping to the floor above to secure the mill, but
decided on the anchors.
My lathe is bolted to the wall for earthquake safety. While we can
argue about earthquake dynamics, and the ability of machines to walk,
etc. my lathe sits against a wall. I know from previous earthquakes I
have been through (Japan and Northern California) that the ground can
move vertically or laterally. And it can move so fast it is hard or
impossible to stand up. And it can move a foot or more at a time. I
really think the building could hit and unsecured lathe hard enough to
knock it over. As long as the lathe moves with the building it will be
OK.
As long as we're at it, let's talk about machine mounts (rubber feet).
Another item I thought about long and hard. A shop I deal with pointed
out that while these isolate a machine from vibrations, it also lets
the machine vibrate on its own. And that turns out to be a much bigger
problem for a home shop that only has 1-2 machines running at a time.
An out of balance part or tool will cause a lathe to vibrate much more
than the air compressor coming on will. Again, bolting solid to the
floor will use the damping mass of all that concrete to stabilize the
machine. A machine sitting loose is better until the vibration causes
it to walk like your wife's washing machine.
Mike
Eastburn
The last 'big one' :
http://www.seismo.berkeley.edu/seismo/eqw/eqw_99.08.17.html
with sismo waveforms
http://www.seismo.berkeley.edu/seismo/eqw/99.08.18.bks.gif
Notice it is an axis of seconds.
Now the metal content - the waveforms are modified a little as it 'integrates'
into the inductance of horzonal movement and has some sustain in
capacitance... ;)
This is only in one direction - the other waveform ... it is a 3D waveform.