Re Oil Quench
Sfc149
What kind of oil is used for quenching? How much is needed for, say, a part of
about 5 or 6 sq in. -
a bucket, a barrel? Is the part simply immersed in the oil and allowed to sink
or is it suspended in
some way? What prevents the oil from igniting? Should my first attempt at
this be in the middle of
40 acre field, adding the part to the oil via slingshot?
I want to make and harden/temper jaws for a fly tying vise.
Sig.
BeeCrofter
can strain it back into the tank when you are done.
A fairly dark area lets you read the colors better than in daylight.
Get the part under the oil so it doesn't flare up and singe your arm.
Long sleeves and a glove wouldn't be a bad idea as well as a lid for the oil
container.
Stir it around or bubbles form and keep the part from cooling.
Tom
There is an extra Bee in the Email address after the AOL.com
BeeCrofter
You will be holding a fish hook so what diference would it make if the jaws are
hard or soft?
Sfc149
>container.
>Stir it around or bubbles form and keep the part from cooling.
Another reply also suggested using a lid for the container. How do I stir the
part thru the lid? I guess
I could use a wire basket with the wire handle protruding
thru a small hole in the lid?
The vise jaws must grip the bend of the hook tight
enough to allow you to exert pressure on the shank
without having it slip in the jaws. The force is enough
to deform or crack improperly treated jaws.
Sig
Dennice Shelton
If there's enough oil you don't need a lid. If your pieces are massive
a gallon may not be quite enough to prevent some flash. You being
outside? and new to it , a little fire might be exciting! Thick parts
present some problems. I do thin parts so I can't inform well ; reading
up is highly recommended. MSC offered a good little handbook recently.
[PS: LOL, TOM]
DAR
webtv is lame
Monel
Sfc149 <sfc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000209111808...@ng-da1.aol.com...
>
> What kind of oil is used for quenching?
Most quench oils are mineral oil based.
>How much is needed for, say, a part of
> about 5 or 6 sq in. -
Use at least a gallon
> a bucket, a barrel? Is the part simply immersed in the oil and
allowed to sink
> or is it suspended in
> some way?
If possible, agitate it. This "speeds" up the quench
>What prevents the oil from igniting?
Quench oils have additives to raise the flash-point. Normal oils
have low flash-points, so caution must me used to avoid fire.
>Should my first attempt at
> this be in the middle of
> 40 acre field, adding the part to the oil via slingshot?
The trick is to completely submerge the part as quickly as possible.
if the part is exposed while it's above the flash point temperature,
you WILL have a fire. Wear protective clothes and gloves.
Russ Kepler
Sfc149 <sfc...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>What kind of oil is used for quenching? How much is needed for, say, a part of
>about 5 or 6 sq in. -
>or is it suspended in
>this be in the middle of
>40 acre field, adding the part to the oil via slingshot?
The best oil is that made for quenching. It's got additivies to make
sure that the oil doesn't vaporize and form a vapor barrier against
cooling; this keeps the cooling curve constant against various quench
temperatures.
The amount of quench is based on the mass and temperature of the part
being quenched. I would expect a couple of gallons to be adequate for
your vise jaws as long as they don't exceed a pound or so.
A lot of folks use a basket to catch the part in the quench. The key
in reducing warping is to make sure that the presentation to the
quench is identical between the parts (this at least generates
identical warpage); I find that it's best to make sure that the part
slips in with the least disturbance, i.e. lengthwise for the most part.
The oil shouldn't flash - you can get some smoke, maybe a bit of
flame, but it's not going to catch on file. Waste oil can contain
volatiles that can burn and is not a good choice. A lot of folks use
a real quenching oil, others use a light hydraulic oil, I've even
heard of people using peanut and olive oil. No burns reported.
I've not heard of using a slingshot to move the metal to the quench.
If you try this I'd suggest at the least a fiberglass sling as the
more traditional leather is likely to burn. You might also want to
consider an air hardening steel if you're going to sling it - that
way it'll harden even if you miss the quenching oil.
>I want to make and harden/temper jaws for a fly tying vise.
Actually, I'd suggest using A2 for the jaws. It's got a pretty wide
hardening temperature range and hardens nicely in still air. If you
temper it appropriately you can make very nice jaws - I make most of
my shop vise jaws from it and they do just fine.
--
Russ Kepler ru...@kepler-eng.com
Please Don't Feed the Engineers
Steve Rayner
I didn't get the first part of this thread.
I trust this is a fly tying vice. I made my own a few months ago. I used
drill rod for the jaws, and so far have not heat treated it. So far, so
good. It seems to work fine, without hardening the jaws. I will harden and
temper them eventualy. I will probably use brine, or raw linseed oil for
the quench. I will then temper the whole thing in hot olive oil. This
process works very well, I have been doing it this way for over 20 years!
Remember to normalise first, to remove strains, and prevent cracking.
Sfc149 (sfc...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Long sleeves and a glove wouldn't be a bad idea as well as a lid for the oil
--
I'm a Canadian eh! Steve.
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Sfc149
>Actually, I'd suggest using A2 for the jaws.
I'll look into A2.
But one more question please: How long is the part kept in the quench? I would
think the part must cool to
some critical temperature before which it should not be
removed.
I have read some about this process, but the details were lacking. Your
practical experience (and wit) is much more valuable.
Thank you all for your responses.
Sig
Dennice Shelton
There is such a critical temp. that must be reached within a certain
time for complete hardening. I don't recall exactly but 800 deg. F.
comes to mind. So the thicker the piece the longer the bath.....20 to
30 sec should do it.
Again, I do thin parts and can only advise accurately about that.
Till the part smokes very little when removed is a good tell. Dunk
immediately from kiln, no walking across the room with hot parts.
Another option is pre hardened tool steel stock
to start with.
Dar
LOL slingshot cooling A2 !
Steve Rayner
Cool to room/body temp! Reheat to temper, anywhere from 530-600 F
depending on the steel.
Sfc149 (sfc...@aol.com) wrote:
: >From: ru...@kepler-eng.com (Russ Kepler)
--
Russ Kepler
Sfc149 <sfc...@aol.com> wrote:
>But one more question please: How long is the part kept in the quench? I would
>think the part must cool to
>some critical temperature before which it should not be
>removed.
Basically you don't want to remove it until you can touch it with
skin. It's that simple. At that point you have to begin the
tempering process. A point to start would be 500degF, simply put the
jaws on a rack and heat them to 500 degF (and this should be
measured, it matters) then cool again either by quench or by still
air.
The harder the jaws are made the sooner you'll want to start the
tempering process. This is a simplification, but still the salient
point you want to remember.
>I have read some about this process, but the details were lacking. Your
>practical experience (and wit) is much more valuable.
Unfortunately I'm only half experienced as well.
How are these puppies shaped? It might make sense to use a local HT
shop if there's anything strange in the shape (large change in
thichness, lots of taper, real thin, etc.) as they'll better be able
to judge the appropriate soak times, etc. I can do a fair job on
knives, swage dies and (strangely enough) vise jaws; hard stuff with
a lot of work time in it I'd be tempted to send out.
By the way - someone mentioned agitating while quenching - if anyone
does this they should be *real* careful to make sure that equal
cooling rates are maintained on all sides, top & bottom of the part.
Failing to do that will generate some interestingly shaped hard metal
objects, not quite what was wanted. On anything with enough mass to
warrant I tend to plunge straight in, then lift it up & down in the
bath, never lifting it completely out.
Dennice Shelton
out after 10 sec. (cause there are lots and I'm in a hurry!) and lay
them on a room temp steel plate to cool down.
500 deg. F. sounds like a good place to temper. Hard enough not to be
damaged by most tools but soft enough to not be extremely brittle.
Best is to read up or have someone good do it for ya'...........or
keep the thread going (^:#
Dar
Hoyt McKagen
us all: chatter. STM this is more likely when cut is light. I've had it
be problem in some cases during final lighter cuts. A given remedy is to
ncrease feed rate, which increases cutting load. But sometimes it also
happens with heavy indeed very heavy cuts. So chatter isn't directly
driven by the force itself, other things interact with that. So what
causes chatter? Consider this as it applies to tool and machine condition
and materials being cut. Use lathe turning as conceptual example but be
sure any postulated model applies to all types of cutting. Discuss this
in terms of chaos theory, specifically as that applies to organization of
behavior from interactions of numbers of small coupled dynamic systems.
Give examples of some of these systems in metal cutting machines.
Best wishes,
Hoyt McKagen
Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
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Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
No matter how many idiots there are, they're still only idiots
Lou Boyd
>
> When I run my machines sometimes I have experience that is familiar to
> us all: chatter. STM this is more likely when cut is light. I've had it
> be problem in some cases during final lighter cuts. A given remedy is to
> ncrease feed rate, which increases cutting load. But sometimes it also
> happens with heavy indeed very heavy cuts. So chatter isn't directly
> driven by the force itself, other things interact with that. So what
> causes chatter? Consider this as it applies to tool and machine condition
> and materials being cut. Use lathe turning as conceptual example but be
> sure any postulated model applies to all types of cutting. Discuss this
> in terms of chaos theory, specifically as that applies to organization of
> behavior from interactions of numbers of small coupled dynamic systems.
> Give examples of some of these systems in metal cutting machines.
It's been my impression that chatter is usually the result of a
resonance, not a chaotic condition though it could be. It results when
the tool can alternately grab and release the work at a rate determined
by the mass and flexure of the tool and the structure which holds it.
Cutting angle, cutter sharpness, how the chips break, the stiffness of
the tool and holder, and most important the dampening of the assembly
all play a part. The vibration may be in the work rather than the tool.
The steel which most tools are made of has little dampening and can
vibrate easily within it's elastic limits. I made a little damper which
fits on the tool holder of my Craftsman lathe. It's a small steel block
glued with contact cement to an 1/8" thick piece of Sorbothane (a very
non elastic form of synthetic rubber) and that glued to a short bar I
can clamp behind the tool.
As an experiment try adding some dampening by putting a piece of cork
even soft wood on either side of the tool and clamping around it it with
a vise grip (to provide mass) while cutting. Not that I'm recommending
that as a fix but it may demonstrate a solution.
--
Lou Boyd
Robert Bastow
chatter. The guys are too busy cutting metal!
teenut
Hoyt McKagen wrote:
>
> When I run my machines sometimes I have experience that is familiar to
> us all: chatter. STM this is more likely when cut is light. I've had it
> be problem in some cases during final lighter cuts. A given remedy is to
> ncrease feed rate, which increases cutting load. But sometimes it also
> happens with heavy indeed very heavy cuts. So chatter isn't directly
> driven by the force itself, other things interact with that. So what
> causes chatter? Consider this as it applies to tool and machine condition
> and materials being cut. Use lathe turning as conceptual example but be
> sure any postulated model applies to all types of cutting. Discuss this
> in terms of chaos theory, specifically as that applies to organization of
> behavior from interactions of numbers of small coupled dynamic systems.
> Give examples of some of these systems in metal cutting machines.
>
Dennis Armstrong
drum to increase damping and reduce the vibration that causes the chatter.
Dennis A. Armstrong
da...@msn.com
One Test is worth a Thousand Expert Opinions
.
Lou Boyd <bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:38A6F48E...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu...
> Hoyt McKagen wrote:
> >
> > When I run my machines sometimes I have experience that is familiar to
> > us all: chatter. STM this is more likely when cut is light. I've had it
> > be problem in some cases during final lighter cuts. A given remedy is to
> > ncrease feed rate, which increases cutting load. But sometimes it also
> > happens with heavy indeed very heavy cuts. So chatter isn't directly
> > driven by the force itself, other things interact with that. So what
> > causes chatter? Consider this as it applies to tool and machine
condition
> > and materials being cut. Use lathe turning as conceptual example but be
> > sure any postulated model applies to all types of cutting. Discuss this
> > in terms of chaos theory, specifically as that applies to organization
of
> > behavior from interactions of numbers of small coupled dynamic systems.
> > Give examples of some of these systems in metal cutting machines.
>