Blueing a Helmet
mad.oc
roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
final assembly.
I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
Madoc
Kurt Bjorn
it is not the most durable. A lower temperature "temper" blue (very
attractive, again not very durable) can be had by GENTLY and SLOWLY
increasing the heat from cold to ~ 600 degrees. You will see the polished
metal first turn a faint yellow, then darker yellow then purplish, then
purple/blue. Arrest the color by quenching in oil. This works only with
polished metal. Try it on scrap first, the heat must be applied slowly or
you will race through the desired color very fast.
An alternative is a visit to the gunsmith shop, where, for a reasonable
price, he will blue your metal for a finish much more durable and even than
the above methods.
--
Kurt
mad.oc wrote in message <36A10B...@virgin.net>...
alain labbe
stores) to do it yourself without any heating. It involves a chemical
solution that you applie to the metal. Very simple. I dont know how
resistant it is however.
Jack Erbes
>
> I'm a re-enactor and have just finished making the bits for my late
> roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
>
> I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
> final assembly.
>
> I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
>
> Madoc
That's pretty much an old wives tale. Buy a pint or so of either
Oxpho-Blue or Dicropan T-4 cold blueing solution from Brownells (in the
FAQ) and cold blue it. It is less than $15 a pint, will do a very nice
job, and is more than durable enough for part-time Legionnaires.
--
Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (ja...@vom.com)
(Amazing! "Legionnaire" is in the Netsacpe spell checker.)
DJMaxham
your helmet with Instant Blues that are on
the market. They will not work. The color
will be mottled, some browns, some grays,
some off blues. Especiallly on a large piece
they do a horrible job. To heat it up and dip
it in hot oil also will give rotten colors.
There is only one to blue the helmet other
than the ancient method of rolling it over a
hot fire in bone meal. You must use blueing
salts in a 295 degree bath as the gunsmiths
do. The metal must be spotless, not even
touched by your fingers. Brownells in
montezuma, Iowa will sell you salts, but you'll
be a very unhappy fellow the first time you
use them. The house will stink for a month
and anything that the salts spatter on will rot
away. I've been blueing guns since 1946
it's a very difficault job to get everything
just right. Please go to a gunsmith near
you and ask him as a favor to do the Helmet
for you. Best regards. Dave.
william thomas powers
>: Oxpho-Blue or Dicropan T-4 cold blueing solution from Brownells (in the
>: FAQ) and cold blue it. It is less than $15 a pint, will do a very nice
>: job, and is more than durable enough for part-time Legionnaires.
Actually its a pretty common method of putting a dark rust resistant
finish on armour. If you ask this question on rec,org,sca you can
probably get the correct procedure from folk who have done this
40 or 50 times!
There is a website or two as well: search for the armour archive
and Arador.
IF you will be wearing this armour and camping with it the cold
blue may not be durable enough.
Thomas who has smelt many a helm being "baked" but does pattern welding
not cold work
Jack Erbes
>
> It's not an old wives tale! I have a hole punch made in high school that
> was blued with heat and oil.
Actually it was probably blued with heat and then oiled.
Steel is blued by the heat alone. I have blued a lot of shop-made gun
parts, screws especially, by playing them in the flame of a propane
torch. It works best on a brightly polished part, you can watch the
colors develop from yellow to brown to purple and then blue. If you
quench it in oil as soon as the desired color appears it arrests the
process, makes it look better, and keeps it from rusting.
But the oil has nothing to do with developing the color and that was
what I meant in my reply.
When people speak of blueing with heat and oil I presume they mean a
lower temperature process of putting oil on metal and heating it to
cause a color develop. That is the old wives tale I referred to.
I did not think that was a practical process for his parts because it is
hard to heat large thin parts evenly enough to get good heat blueing.
--
Steve Rayner
younger brother gave me his. It is still blue after 37 years! His
workmanship was not as good as mine, so it gets less use. On the other
hand he is an expert woodworker, and I am not!
Jack Erbes (ja...@vom.com) wrote:
: mad.oc wrote:
: >
: > I'm a re-enactor and have just finished making the bits for my late
: > roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
: >
: > I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
: > final assembly.
: >
: > I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
: >
: > Madoc
: That's pretty much an old wives tale. Buy a pint or so of either
: Oxpho-Blue or Dicropan T-4 cold blueing solution from Brownells (in the
: FAQ) and cold blue it. It is less than $15 a pint, will do a very nice
: job, and is more than durable enough for part-time Legionnaires.
: --
: Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (ja...@vom.com)
: (Amazing! "Legionnaire" is in the Netsacpe spell checker.)
--
I'm a Canadian eh! Steve.
**************************************************************************
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The metalworking drop box is at http://208.213.200.132
**************************************************************************
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************* Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. ****************
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kenneth knaell
quenching in linseed oil. I do not know if it was boiled or not but
subsequent experience indicates that the oil used makes all the difference
in the world. This was much better than results I got with the cold blues I
bought at er ... well .. K-mart.
ken knaell
Steve Rayner
: Steve Rayner wrote:
: >
: > It's not an old wives tale! I have a hole punch made in high school that
: > was blued with heat and oil.
: Actually it was probably blued with heat and then oiled.
Semantics, semantics!
In fact it was too hot, the one I made was heated red hot and quenched in
a 45 imperial gallon drum of oil. I have no idea what grade of oil it was,
other than the fact that it looked and smelled like motor oil. It may
well have been steam oil, or un-diluted soluble oil. Due to the ready
supply here at the time, it was probably light steam oil.
: Steel is blued by the heat alone. I have blued a lot of shop-made gun
: parts, screws especially, by playing them in the flame of a propane
: torch. It works best on a brightly polished part, you can watch the
: colors develop from yellow to brown to purple and then blue. If you
: quench it in oil as soon as the desired color appears it arrests the
: process, makes it look better, and keeps it from rusting.
: But the oil has nothing to do with developing the color and that was
: what I meant in my reply.
: When people speak of blueing with heat and oil I presume they mean a
: lower temperature process of putting oil on metal and heating it to
: cause a color develop. That is the old wives tale I referred to.
: I did not think that was a practical process for his parts because it is
: hard to heat large thin parts evenly enough to get good heat blueing.
: --
: Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (ja...@vom.com)
--
Steve Rayner
up hands for antique watches & clocks, and then heat blued them. I
quenched in water. Bluing was done on a bed of brass filings in a
stainless steel container. The SS slowed the heat flow, so that I could
observe the colours better, because they changed slower. The parts were
then dried and oiled.
Jack Erbes (ja...@vom.com) wrote:
: Steve Rayner wrote:
: >
: > It's not an old wives tale! I have a hole punch made in high school that
: > was blued with heat and oil.
: Actually it was probably blued with heat and then oiled.
: Steel is blued by the heat alone. I have blued a lot of shop-made gun
Tom Stovall
>
> I'm a re-enactor and have just finished making the bits for my late
> roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
>
> I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
> final assembly.
>
> I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
>
> Madoc
Heat will cause polished mild steel to run colors. Polish the piece
to a uniform shine, then stick it in the oven for an hour at 500F.
It'll turn blue.
The piece will rust unless you apply some kind of finish.
If you want to finish the piece with oil (big PITA), coat the piece with
a mixture of beeswax and linseed oil immediately after the hour in the
oven, while it's still hot. Or, you can substitute any good all-purpose
wax for a less traditional finish, just be sure to apply it while the
metal's hot.
For a less traditional - but much more durable - finish, let the piece
cool to touch in the oven, then coat it with a couple of coats of clear
polyurethane, followed by waxing.
p&m
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
No me hagas preguntas, no te diré mentiras.
Felice Luftschein & Nicholas Carter
and quenching in canola oil. I learned this method in a gunsmithing
book, and it is different from heat bluing as far as I can tell.
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:52:10 -0800, Jack Erbes <ja...@vom.com> wrote:
>Steel is blued by the heat alone.
Jack Erbes
>
> Jack Erbes (ja...@vom.com) wrote:
> : Steve Rayner wrote:
> : >
> : > It's not an old wives tale! I have a hole punch made in high school that
> : > was blued with heat and oil.
>
> : Actually it was probably blued with heat and then oiled.
>
>
No, different technical processes, different technical processes!
What you just described is a hardening process with an oil quench. If
done exposed to an open heat source, that leaves the metal with a layer
of oxides (i.e., scale) that either are or look like blueing.
What I am talking about is taking a part that is already at the desired
state of hardness, polishing it, and heating it to change the surface
color to blue. Kurt's post describes it very well too.
Maybe my background as a gunsmith causes me to be a little anal
retentive about how the term "blueing" is used, but the processes of
tempering steel and heat blueing steel are clearly different.
If that guy had said he wanted to harden those parts and blue them (or
at least impart some color to the surface) at the same time, heating
them to red hot and throwing them into some kind of oil would have been
a good start.
When someone says they want to blue something I presume it is without
taking it up to transformation temperature as that will change the
condition of the steel.
Ted Edwards
I'm hardening and cleaning the part. I then remove the hot steel from
the forge and place on the anvil. I put the part on this and move it
around like "stir-fry" watching for the color I want to quench at. The
"chunk" of steel is a 4" x 6" (approx) piece of 1/4" plate with four
legs that hang over the sides of the anvil. This plate is also used as
a surface to chisel against to protect the anvil.
Ted
Ted Edwards
> What I am talking about is taking a part that is already at the desired
> state of hardness, polishing it, and heating it to change the surface
> color to blue. Kurt's post describes it very well too.
When you heat it to blue color, you *are* tempering it to approximately
spring temper. This is fine unless you wanted it harder than that.
Ted
Tom Holt
SuperBlue and Liberon Haematite on 16-ga mild steel plate; first
degrease with trike; then 5 applications of each, used like it sez on
the bottle, in alternation. The result is a wonderful even, deep
middle-to-dark blue and (so far) it hasn't gone dull or wiped/flaked off.
None of the other cold blue solutions I've used over the years has
been worth a light.
Alasdayr Kilgour
But, since we're prolly dealing with a low carbon steel, heating it
enough to give the blue color would likely remove all the work hardening
from it, decreasing its effectiveness as protection. Personally, I'd use
a cold blueing solution.
Just my .02
--
Rick Schmidt
Oak and Iron Forge
aka
Duncan Alexander Malcolm MacDuibh {MacDobhran} Kilgour
Artyfactor Second of The Shrewsbury Renaissance Faire (ret.)
Kurt Bjorn
KY long rifles during that period. (See Guy Lautards TMBR #3 for some
photos in the article on case hardening). The finest blue I ever obtained
was as follows: Note that this is VERY close procedurally to the tedious
cold-rust blue of the finest sporting firearms, and is as durable as any
blue can get, looks authentic too for old steel, not like a modern hot blue.
- Get some Birchwood Casey Plum Brown (YES, plum brown, not blue)
- Boil some clean water in a vessel large enough to immerse the part. (Note,
the vessel will become toxic and not suitable for food after use)
- Degrease several pads of 0000 steel wool. Bronze wool is better. TSP or
even TIDE will degrease.
- You will also need some clean swabs and cotton work gloves.
The metal must be completely degreased and clean and polished, Cannot
overemphasize this enough. Fit some hardwood "handles" or some means of
handling to the steel so you can fish the part into and out of the boiling
water.
Immerse the steel in the water and allow it to heat up. The water need only
be simmering, 212 deg f. Remove the steel from the water and swab on the
plum brown sol'n. The steel will darken immediately. Be liberal with the
plum brown. Let the brown work for perhaps 3 minutes, then lightly buff
with the degreased 40 steel wool. Don't be afraid when the first couple of
cardings will remove almost all of the color, you are lightly etching the
steel at this point. Return to the water and boil for 10 minutes. Repeat
this cycle as many times as desired. 2 or 3 hours of this cycle will
produce a hot water blue which will look superior to a caustic blue. After
the last application, boil for 20 more minutes, then remove, polish, and oil
the s*** out of the steel. I spray huge amounts of WD40 initially, then a
heavier oil.
Kurt Bjorn
Richard Young
>
> I'm a re-enactor and have just finished making the bits for my late
> roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
>
> I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
> final assembly.
>
> I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
>
> Madoc
In a back issue of Guns & Ammo (May 98) There is a recipe for a cold
rust bluing solution that may be of intrest to many as this topic comes
up often on this ng. The recipe is as follows;
Nitric acid 2.5 oz.
Hydrochloric acid 2.0 oz.
Wire nails 1.0 oz.
Distilled water 30.0 oz.
Combine the acids in a glass container. Add wire nails. Let sit untill
the nails have dissolved, add the acid to water. (NEVER ADD WATER TO
ACID). The article says this can be stored in brown bottles with plastic
caps in a dark closet. They stress that it should be mixed exactly as
stated or a violent chemical reaction will result. Hope this helps!
Rick.
Eric Taylor
blueing but for etching markings in steel, but have not been able to
find a source. The post below would indicate it is available. If so,
WHERE? :)
Thanks for any leads.
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:22:43 GMT, Richard Young
<burri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
->mad.oc wrote:
->>
->> I'm a re-enactor and have just finished making the bits for my late
->> roman helmet (cheek flaps, neck guard etc).
->>
->> I really want to blue it before I edge it with leather and go for the
->> final assembly.
->>
->> I've heard stories that oil and heat will do the job. Will it ??
->>
->> Madoc
->
->
-> In a back issue of Guns & Ammo (May 98) There is a recipe for a cold
->rust bluing solution that may be of intrest to many as this topic comes
->up often on this ng. The recipe is as follows;
->
->
-> Nitric acid 2.5 oz.
-> Hydrochloric acid 2.0 oz.
-> Wire nails 1.0 oz.
-> Distilled water 30.0 oz.
->
-> Combine the acids in a glass container. Add wire nails. Let sit untill
->the nails have dissolved, add the acid to water. (NEVER ADD WATER TO
->ACID). The article says this can be stored in brown bottles with plastic
->caps in a dark closet. They stress that it should be mixed exactly as
->stated or a violent chemical reaction will result. Hope this helps!
->
->
-> Rick.
Eastburn
H2So4 - Sulfuric Acid - Lead Acid (car type/motocycle...) acid in Auto Shops.
Nitric - Another animal - Can't think of a 'common' source. If you know a Pharmacist
they can order most anything - but might not want to. This can be used for other things.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Stephen J. Rayner
sells chemicals. Sulphuric acid is more common in car battery electrolite,
though it is weak. Hydrochloric acid is available as muriatic acid in
hardware stores.
Eric Taylor (e...@inetnow.net) wrote:
: I've been trying to get nitric/sulfuric/hydrocloric acid, not for
: Thanks for any leads.
Kurt Bjorn
manufacture countless explosive substances. Try chemical supply houses
which cater to schools, and tell them that you are an industrial user... you
ARE creating items for sale in a shop, right?
Give Chem lab Supplies a call at
714-630-7902 or
310-973-2391
--
Kurt B.
Eastburn wrote in message <36A56257...@pacbell.net>...