Epoxy still soft after 2 days.....what's wrong?
Clark Magnuson
Is it the cold temp in the shop ~ 40 degrees?
Could the stuff have frozen in my car?
Does it get old?
What went wrong?
TIA
Harold and Susan Vordos
"Clark Magnuson" <c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BfudnYRz4fgk8jve...@comcast.com...
> I am using Devcon Steel Putty, and it always worked before.
> Does it get old?
In my opinion, yes, it does. I've used some outdated stuff that wouldn't
harden. What I used wasn't Devcon, but it was a two part compound-----an
epoxy of sorts. Never did get hard, although it did get quite stiff.
Harold
Karl Townsend
>> Does it get old?
>
> In my opinion, yes, it does. I've used some outdated stuff that wouldn't
> harden. What I used wasn't Devcon, but it was a two part compound-----an
> epoxy of sorts. Never did get hard, although it did get quite stiff.
I have this exact problem. Hope the SO doesn't trade me in. <VBG>
Karl
everyman
Karl
"Clark Magnuson" <c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BfudnYRz4fgk8jve...@comcast.com...
Bugs
or something to that effect. Once it has been mixed in the cold it
seems to be more difficult to set up even when warmed.
Bugs
J. Clarke
> I am using Devcon Steel Putty, and it always worked before.
>
>
> Is it the cold temp in the shop ~ 40 degrees?
Probably has something to do with it.
> Could the stuff have frozen in my car?
Does it have a minimum storage temperature? If it got too cold some
components might have separated.
> Does it get old?
Most chemistry does--with single part adhesives and putties they typically
just get hard. If it's two part then it may not cure properly--I've seen
this happen to epoxies and polyurethanes even if they were stored under
"ideal conditions" in a well equipped laboratory. More insidious--even if
it does _appear_ to have cured properly the properties of the cured
material may not be very high.
> What went wrong?
>
> TIA
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Austin Shackles
<c.mag...@comcast.net> enlightened us thusly:
probably the cold temperature. Try warming it?
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Would to God that we might spend a single day really well!"
Thomas Ą Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xxiii.
Joseph Gwinn
Clark Magnuson <c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote:
Both cold and age are possible problems, as is a bad mix. Hard to tell
which it is though.
In the late 1960s, I was a summer student in the plastics lab at RCA,
working on pieces of the lunar lander. Almost everything in the lander
electronics was glued together, because glue weighed less than
mechanical fasteners.
Anyway, a constant fear was of a bad mix, so we would mix a batch, put a
little bit into a aluminum foil cup, and cure for five or ten minutes at
180 degrees F, and give the sample to the quality-control inspector. If
all was well, the sample had hardened, and wasn't at all tacky or sticky
to the touch. If not, into the trash the entire mixed batch went.
One trick was to cure the joint overnight at room temperature, and then
finish at 180 degrees. This was done because uncured epoxy at 180
degrees is very runny, and wouldn't stay where put. Let it cure
overnight and it wound stay even when hot. The heat was needed for the
strongest cure.
At this point, the best approach is to pull the joint apart, clean the
soft epoxy out mechanically and the residue off with acetone, and start
again. If the joint is properly cleaned, the failed attempt will not
interfere with the subsequent attempt.
Joe Gwinn
Tim Shoppa
> Is it the cold temp in the shop ~ 40 degrees?
The rough rule of thumb is that for every ten degrees lower in
temperature, it'll take twice as long. This is very rough - there are
some reactions where dropping below some temperature really does stop
everything, and there are others where getting above some criticial
temperature makes everything explode.
Anyway, at 30 degrees below "nominal" 70 degrees, that's roughly 8
times as long.
If you have a heat lamp, you might try aiming it at the joint (possibly
putting a box around for insulation) and see if this gets it to cure.
Even when it's not too cold, I often use heat lamps to speed up the
curing of epoxy (impatience!)
Tim.
Grant Erwin
That's one of the things I don't like about Devcon. I seem to remember it only
has a 1-year shelf life.
GWE
Ed Huntress
news:8ezpf.61314$mD5....@fe10.usenetserver.com...
> If the epoxy does not harden because of cold, it is nothing to worry
> about, it will harden eventually just as good. Add some heat if you
> want it to happen sooner.
I'm not so sure about that. My memory is failing me on this, but my vague
recollection is that epoxy cured with polyamine (which Devcon almost
certainly is) has to be formulated for a certain temperature range or it may
never achieve a strong or hard cure. The hardeners used in high performance
prepregs, which can be refrigerated for long periods without losing strength
when they're taken out of the refrigerator and cured at higher temperatures,
generally do not use polyamine hardeners. They require a two-stage
elevated-temperature cure and their chemistry is different.
WEST System and other formulators make low-temp polyamine-cure epoxies, but
they're made specifically for that purpose. And their bonding strength
generally is not as high as room-temperature- or elevated-temperature-cure
epoxies.
You never know until you try it.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:22:23 -0500, Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> raka.com), and my epoxy hardened quite well after a very long time.
OK, but that's the one *you* used. I wish I could remember this because I
read a lot about it when I wrote a Special Report for American Machinist on
the subject of adhesives for metalworking. But that was too long ago.
There's probably plenty of information about it on the Web. It just takes
some motivation and some time. Cold-weather curing is a big issue in
boatbuilding so I'd check first at those sites, such as WEST System, System
Three, etc.
--
Ed Huntress
Mike Henry
"Tim Shoppa" <sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message
news:1135001620....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Tim - I think that rule of thumb for reaction rates is for degrees
centigrade, not degrees Fahrenheit.
Dave Hinz
> I am using Devcon Steel Putty, and it always worked before.
I mixed a batch of epoxy in a wax-paper cup once, it never hardened.
I'm told that wax kills epoxy, but never researched it - I just use
plastic tubs now.
Ed Huntress
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:43:01 -0500, Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net>
> hardened similarly, and used my experience, which was wrong.
>
> i
>
Hey, epoxy is interesting stuff. The mixes we get for home and shop use are
just the tip of the iceberg. When you look into the formulations that are
available to industry, you'll see how they're able to glue aluminum
airplanes together and to make those super-strong, super-stiff carbon-fiber
laminates.
It ain't Devcon. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Harold and Susan Vordos
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@earthlink.net remove .NOT> wrote in
message news:x0xpf.166$R84...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
When the two part stuff didn't get hard, I turned to the SO, who made what
ever was left get stiff enough to be of service. She didn't appear to
be interested in any trades. Could be I have a good model. You know how
some are lemons. <g>
Harold
Roy
I have had varous results from the stuff setting too fast or not
setting at all in regards to temperatures, and storage does play an
important part as to it maintaining its inherit properties either of
strength or setup time.. Everything made that gets old fails to work
properly......my body tells me that every year, and epoxy would not be
any different. The military pitches tons of epoxie type materials all
the time.........I used to drag all kinds of stuff home.....9 out of
10 times my results were not anywhere near like what fresh properly
stored unexpired material produced and used within the temp range.
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:29:04 -0800, Clark Magnuson
<c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote:
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....
John
We store the stuff in the refrigerator and that seems to extend its
life.
John
Ed Huntress
news:43A77845...@intergrafix.net...
That will extend its life. A particularly important thing to do, though, is
to warm it up before you mix it. It's cold mixing that is the dominant
problem in cold-weather use of epoxy. The hardener and the epoxy may never
properly react if you mix them cold.
--
Ed Huntress
John
Yup, I always warmed it up before I mixed it. Also the stuff that
was left over of the mixed batch became the test sample for harderning.
I never used the out of date epoxy for anything critical.
John
everyman
Karl
"Bugs" <mato...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1134994635.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
William Wixon
"Roy" <Sonom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43a93222...@news.east.earthlink.net...
> Could definately be all of them thoughts.
>
> I have had varous results from the stuff setting too fast or not
-snip-
> stored unexpired material produced and used within the temp range.
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:29:04 -0800, Clark Magnuson
> <c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>><>I am using Devcon Steel Putty, and it always worked before.
>>><>
>>><>
>>><>Is it the cold temp in the shop ~ 40 degrees?
>>><>Could the stuff have frozen in my car?
>>><>Does it get old?
>>><>
>>><>What went wrong?
>>><>
>>><>TIA
>
funny thing, i just mixed up a small batch of epoxy, the stuff i have is
OLD, 10 years mebbe. mixing it on a paper plate with a pocket knife.
squeezed a little blob and set the tube down, got distracted by something,
went to pick up the other tube and was like "dang! which one did i already
use?!" and thought of your post. turned out i got lucky and added a blob
from the second tube but wondered if maybe you put two "part b"s?
b.w.
Roy
shelf life. So just for grins and giggles, we dicided to mix a can of
it up and see if it would get hard. These were half pint sized kits of
epoxy adhesive we had, and we have always mixed up the full contents
of one can into the other can. Our work benchs in the shop had thick
1/2" wool felt tops on them to prevent scratching of aluminum aircraft
parts etc, and also allow you to drill through things without marring
up the bench tops........We mixed up a couple of cans of the stuff,
and let them set on the bench and took a break.......We were all
setting in the office when we started to smell something that was
pretty acrid and foul smelling. We looked around and went back into
the shop area to find the top of the work bench on fire......The
expired epoxie put out sufficient heat to cause the stuff to combust,
and in the process the felt tops on the benchs started to smoulder as
well........ The boss said, no way that epoxie did that, someone
probbaly left a cigarette laying on the bench and it caught the top on
fire, so we mixed up another can and placed it outside on a piece of
sheet metal......In about 20 minutes it erupted like a volcano and
self combusted......
--
Ed Huntress
> A few years back we had a bunch of 2 part epoxy that had gone past its
> shelf life. So just for grins and giggles, we dicided to mix a can of
> it up and see if it would get hard. These were half pint sized kits of
> epoxy adhesive we had, and we have always mixed up the full contents
> of one can into the other can. Our work benchs in the shop had thick
> 1/2" wool felt tops on them to prevent scratching of aluminum aircraft
> parts etc, and also allow you to drill through things without marring
> up the bench tops........We mixed up a couple of cans of the stuff,
> and let them set on the bench and took a break.......We were all
> setting in the office when we started to smell something that was
> pretty acrid and foul smelling. We looked around and went back into
> the shop area to find the top of the work bench on fire......The
> expired epoxie put out sufficient heat to cause the stuff to combust,
> and in the process the felt tops on the benchs started to smoulder as
> well........ The boss said, no way that epoxie did that, someone
> probbaly left a cigarette laying on the bench and it caught the top on
> fire, so we mixed up another can and placed it outside on a piece of
> sheet metal......In about 20 minutes it erupted like a volcano and
> self combusted......
This is a problem when you use epoxy (or polyester, or vinylester, or
two-part polyurethane) that was formulated for a different purpose. If you
take a two-part polymerizing resin that's made for use as a coating or an
adhesive, or for laminating, then mix up a big batch and let it sit in a
mass (or a coffee can) while it cures, the exotherm can make the stuff catch
on fire or even explode.
Resins made for casting in thick sections or masses have much lower
exotherm. Be careful.
--
Ed Huntress
Larry Jaques
Grant Erwin <gr...@NOSPAMkirkland.net> quickly quoth:
>That's one of the things I don't like about Devcon. I seem to remember it only
>has a 1-year shelf life.
I bought two tubes of 5-min Epoxy 3 years ago and successfully used
one this year. Hmmm, shelf life not marked on package AFAICT.
Googling...Eek, the Devcon UK sites list 1, 2, & 3 year shelf lives
on epoxies. www.Devcon.com doesn't list a shelf life. (Bastids.)
So, what does a pound of Titanium Putty cost? They recommend it for
shaft repairs where a bearing failed. Do I even want to know?
OUCH!
--
Action is eloquence. --William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
Ed Huntress
news:9thgq19k8pjs8gm61...@4ax.com...
I don't take the expiration dates seriously. Last year I used an unopened
pint of polyester casting resin that was about 10 years past the ex date. It
had been kept fairly cool in my basement. It worked perfectly.
I've also used 5- or 6-year-old Bondo. No problem. I have two bottles of
laminating System Three epoxy that I use from time to time, over a period of
8 or 9 years. 'Works fine. But I keep them cool.
--
Ed Huntress
k.pearson
A local (Lansing MI) builder, who is a West System dealer, has a
gallon of West System resin that is at least 20 yrs old that sits on
top of a cabinet in his shop (which is heated occasionally to do some
work).. He says every couple years he mixes a batch and it always
does fine.
Ed Huntress
news:8c2jq1d3h7jcjrr86...@4ax.com...
That doesn't surprise me. BTW, would you mind telling me who the builder is?
I was on the MSU crew, and later the sailing team, and I knew the Gougeon
brothers and sailed against them in Bay City. If the builder has been around
that WEST group for a few decades, I might know him.
--
Ed Huntress
k.pearson
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>"k.pearson" <aslub@charter_remove_.net> wrote in message
>news:8c2jq1d3h7jcjrr86...@4ax.com...
>> A local (Lansing MI) builder, who is a West System dealer, has a
>> gallon of West System resin that is at least 20 yrs old that sits on
>> top of a cabinet in his shop (which is heated occasionally to do some
>> work).. He says every couple years he mixes a batch and it always
>> does fine.
>
>That doesn't surprise me. BTW, would you mind telling me who the builder is?
>I was on the MSU crew, and later the sailing team, and I knew the Gougeon
>brothers and sailed against them in Bay City. If the builder has been around
>that WEST group for a few decades, I might know him.
Don (argh - sputter - grimace _ I hate getting old). Our age, had a
radio show and is voice for a Northern Michgian TV travel show. Makes
canoes, teaches boat building.. Not listed as a dealer now. I'm
working on it.
Were you on crew during either the Bill Smoke or Al Bay eras? I
started a rowing club in Lansing in '87 and got to know a lot about
MSU crew. My first interaction with crew was a trade where I refereed
a regatta for them on the Grand and they helped put a board track for
a six day bike race in Dem Hall.
Karl Pearson
yourname
>>>8 or 9 years. 'Works fine. But I keep them cool.
>>
>>A local (Lansing MI) builder, who is a West System dealer, has a
>>gallon of West System resin that is at least 20 yrs old that sits on
>>top of a cabinet in his shop (which is heated occasionally to do some
>>work).. He says every couple years he mixes a batch and it always
>>does fine.
>
>
> That doesn't surprise me. BTW, would you mind telling me who the builder is?
> I was on the MSU crew, and later the sailing team, and I knew the Gougeon
> brothers and sailed against them in Bay City. If the builder has been around
> that WEST group for a few decades, I might know him.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>
West System is some seriously good stuff.
Some epoxies, resins etc have some volitiles to make them easy to work
with, and those evaporate, leaving mud
Ed Huntress
news:cVgqf.5010$u36.3755@trndny01...
<snip>
> West System is some seriously good stuff.
>
> Some epoxies, resins etc have some volitiles to make them easy to work
> with, and those evaporate, leaving mud.
Yes, I think WEST System is 100% solids. If I were building a big boat I'd
use it, even though it's pretty pricey. They've really worked it all out
very well, including mixing, application, and the whole works.
--
Ed Huntress
J. Clarke
How does he know it "does fine"? Does he make up specimens and do
structural tests on them? If not then he doesn't know that it "did fine",
all he knows is that it got hard.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Ed Huntress
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:33:45 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >"k.pearson" <aslub@charter_remove_.net> wrote in message
> >news:8c2jq1d3h7jcjrr86...@4ax.com...
>
> >> A local (Lansing MI) builder, who is a West System dealer, has a
> >> gallon of West System resin that is at least 20 yrs old that sits on
> >> top of a cabinet in his shop (which is heated occasionally to do some
> >> work).. He says every couple years he mixes a batch and it always
> >> does fine.
> >
> >That doesn't surprise me. BTW, would you mind telling me who the builder
is?
> >I was on the MSU crew, and later the sailing team, and I knew the Gougeon
> >brothers and sailed against them in Bay City. If the builder has been
around
> >that WEST group for a few decades, I might know him.
>
> Don (argh - sputter - grimace _ I hate getting old). Our age, had a
> radio show and is voice for a Northern Michgian TV travel show. Makes
> canoes, teaches boat building.. Not listed as a dealer now. I'm
> working on it.
Sorry, 'getting old too. <g> I don't remember anyone like that. He probably
came after my time -- sometime after the outboard motor was invented.
>
> Were you on crew during either the Bill Smoke or Al Bay eras? I
> started a rowing club in Lansing in '87 and got to know a lot about
> MSU crew. My first interaction with crew was a trade where I refereed
> a regatta for them on the Grand and they helped put a board track for
> a six day bike race in Dem Hall.
I was on the lightweight crew during its first two years of resurrection:
1966 and 1967. Spring of '67 was the year that Grand Valley state rowed
against us on the Grand River, in their brand-new Pocock racing shell, and
one of their crew slipped his foot out of the shoe, put a hole through the
bottom of the boat right in the middle of a race, and sunk the boat in water
that was maybe 45 deg. F. <g>
The MSU lightweight varsity crew was seven little muscled Polish guys from
the Hamtramck and Ecorse boat clubs, and me. I was the skinny one they stuck
in the bow.
We were fast but our coach broke us down. That was before they knew how much
training was enough. We were 'way over the top in that department.
So, the guys you knew were much younger. I never kept up with it after
moving to NJ.
--
Ed Huntress
k.pearson
<jclarke...@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>k.pearson wrote:
>
>>
>> A local (Lansing MI) builder, who is a West System dealer, has a
>> gallon of West System resin that is at least 20 yrs old that sits on
>> top of a cabinet in his shop (which is heated occasionally to do some
>> work).. He says every couple years he mixes a batch and it always
>> does fine.
>
>How does he know it "does fine"? Does he make up specimens and do
>structural tests on them? If not then he doesn't know that it "did fine",
>all he knows is that it got hard.
Well, he doesn't run structural tests, but he does make up a section
of cloth with it and hand tests it relative to newer resin in the same
cloth. Can't tell any noticeable difference, but that's not real
'testing' of course. Us canoe / kayak builders aren't nearly as fussy
as people who use the stuff to lift their butts in the air or drive at
breakneck speed.
daniel peterman
setup after it becomes slightly more viscous. Most epoxies I have dealt
with will crosslink even without the catalyst part if drawn to the right
temperature. Don't let it bubble or it will become brittle.
k.pearson
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
Great story Ed. I'll file it with the other ones. I remember
watching Michigan Tech's concrete canoe team slowly sink in the Grand
in water about that same temp. Everyone on shore was laughing wildly,
and the paddlers were really vocal in another way.
Ed Huntress
>
> Great story Ed. I'll file it with the other ones. I remember
> watching Michigan Tech's concrete canoe team slowly sink in the Grand
> in water about that same temp. Everyone on shore was laughing wildly,
> and the paddlers were really vocal in another way.
Haha! Concrete canoes must be a gas. I've never seen them, but I've seen
photos.
BTW, my memory is slipping: one of the boat clubs that supplied experienced
junior rowers to MSU at that time was the Wyandotte boat club, not
Hamtramck. Hamtramck supplied us with soccer players. It was Wyandotte and
Ecorse that had the rowers.
--
Ed Huntress