Car repair question:
Al A.
I also posted this question to alt.autos.subaru, but here at RCM we
know EVERYTHING, so here goes:
I have a chance to pick up (for near zero cost) a 1994 Subaru Legacy
sedan. It has a 4 Cyl. enging,75K miles,generally decent body, etc.
not sure of too much else at this point. I'm going for a closer look
later in the week, but hoped to gather some data first.
Like all such deals, something is wrong with it. In this car, the
harmonic balancer came loose about 3 months ago, and it messed up the
slot in the shaft that the woodruff key for the balancer fits into. At
the time, the owners mechanic advised that pulling the crank to fix
the slot was not a viable option, but offered (as a no cost and
"what-have-you-got-to-lose" type of repair) to put the key back in and
fix it in place with JB Weld.
Well, it held for about 3 months. last week, it came loose again, and
seems to have scarred up the ID of the balancer. He went out and
bought a new car, and offered me this one on a "gimmie whatever it is
worth to you" sort of offer.
My thinking is that I could put a new key in what remains of the
slot, and zap in the missing metal from the slot with the MIG machine
and dremel to fit. Or maybe make a fake key out of something the mig
filler will not stick to (graphite, copper or whatever) put in place
and weld around it. Then pull it out, leaving a vague woodruff keyseat
shaped hole. Or gimmie a better idea.
I would likely need to replace the balancer as it looked pretty
gouged up, at least at a glance.
I work with the owner, and a pretty good friends with him, and when
the balancer is not flopping around, the car runs great. If I could
effect a decent repair, this car would make a great cheap to run
around towner.
Anyone know if this is a common problem with Subarus? How do you guys
rate the likelyhood of a sucessful repair? Any thoughts, comments,
alternative ideas for repairs, etc?
Thanks, your input is much appreciated.
AL
Jeff Wisnia
Is there a way you can get a straight shot at the end of the shaft the
balancer is on with a drill, by removing the radiator or something? If
you can, and the shapes of things permits doing this, you can drill a
hole "in the crack" parallel to the shaft, keeping half of the diameter
of the hole in the balancer hub and half in the shaft, then whack in a
tight fitting dowel pin. I'd expect a 5/16" or 3/8" diameter pin ought
to do it.
When I learned this technique from an old toolmaker named Sven years
ago, he called the pin a "Dutchman", why that name, I never learned.
Sven also tought me that if he'd reamed a dowel pin hole just a little
too loose, he'd grab a salt shaker from the lunch break table, mix up
some strong salt water, put a few drops in the hole and press the pin
home. He swore that by the next day it'd be "Tighter than a bull's ass
in fly season."
Following on that, maybe degreasing the surfaces and adding salt water
before fastening things down would insure a tight fit if you are willing
to forgo easy removal in the future, considering your friend's
mechanic's remark about the car not being worth doing that to.
Desperate times take desperate measures.....
Jeff (Who denies giving the advice above. <G>)
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"Jeff Wisnia" <jwi...@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:1KednU-c0dB...@conversent.net...
>
> When I learned this technique from an old toolmaker named Sven years ago,
> he called the pin a "Dutchman", why that name, I never learned.
I'm betting this is a finger-in-the-dike reference.
Peter
HaroldA102
if you could get a used balancer put it on if you cannot drill and tap
the crank tack weld it a couple times chance are you will not have to take it
off anyway!
jim rozen
>Desperate times take desperate measures.....
Tig weld the thing on the end of the crank?
Jim
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Leo Lichtman
"Al A." wrote: (clip) Anyone know if this is a common problem with Subarus?
(clip)Any thoughts, comments,(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not on this specific repair, but...I just bought a used Subaru, based partly
on the advice of a friend who is driving his second one, after giving the
first to his daughter. Checking Consumer Reports, their repair and
reliability over the years seems outstanding.
Don Foreman
I would not trust MIG on something as thick as a crankshaft, but you
may be more skilled with MIG than I am. I don't think I'd weld on
a crankshaft in situ for a variety of reasons.
Here's what I did when the Chevy 350 in my Blazer had a very similar
problem. I made a jig to hold a Dremel in desired position relative
to the crank, still in the engine which was still in the truck. The
jig had a slide and a jackscrew (piece of allthread) that could move
the Dremel axially w.r.t. the crank. I put a stack of abrasive
cutoff wheels one keyslot thick on the Dremel, put a rag around the
crank seal to keep abrasive dust out, and went thru two tubes of
little abrasive wheels making a new slot on the opposite side of the
crank from the one that was barfed. It took a couple of hours under
the truck, jacking it back and forth and replacing wheels. That made
a new keyway that a new key fit tap-in snug. I was lucky that an
integral number of wheels stacked up to just the right thickness. I
didn't expect that, but it turned out that way.
Knocked the burrs off the barfed keyway, put on a better harmonic
balancer from the junkyard. Problem solved. Drove the truck for
several years after that, then sold it to another guy who drove it a
while longer and then sold it to someone else for all I know.
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:06:11 -0400, Al A. <alan...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Don Foreman
center isn't too bad but the outer surfaces are carbide country.
That's true of Chevy anyway, don' know nottink about Subaru.
Kevin Beitz
e
Term is used for several different things, such as a short piece of
rail in fitting railroad track, typically the shortest or smallest
piece that can be used in the circumstance. We use dutchmen about 6
to 7 feet long when a rail cracks. Any shorter, and it is tough to
joint in and support. Ditto for lengthening a beam- beam is 2" short,
cut off 10" and put on a full foot dutchman; easier to align properly.
I'v heard several origins: finger-in-dike, the stuborn reputation, the
terse reputation, the frugal reputation, etc. No clue which is right.
For this fix, it is likely the easiest way, and will probably hold up
ok for a short or long while. The right way is replace the shaft and
seals.
I've been in the same situation, and seen it several times aside, and
once the shaft end is buggered and the balancer is shaking away, there
is a tendancy to damage the shaft seals. Had a Detroit 453 with this
problem. Not a heavy use piece (a low capacity, long boom crane, real
maneuverable, so we kept it until the tower housing cracked) and it
took several quarts of oil every time it ran. The balancer was loose
for a total of about 5 minutes at idle. Seen a bunch of the little
Mitsu 4-cyl cars engines (1468cc?) with the same problem as well. No
key, just a boolt in the end of the shaft and a taper seat. The bolts
work loose if not properly retained.
Rex B
||Here's what I did (snip)
|| making a new slot on the opposite side of the
||crank from the one that was barfed.
|| That made
||a new keyway that a new key fit tap-in snug.
||Knocked the burrs off the barfed keyway, put on a better harmonic
||balancer from the junkyard.
Seems to me tha having a HB 180 degrees out from intended mounting would render
it inneffective. Most I've seen have an assymetric weight cast into the
balancer, which gives the assembly the correct... balance.
Texas Parts Guy
Rex B
What I did was use Loctite sleeve retainer (liberal dose) And crossdrilled and
pinned the snout. That held for longer than it had a right to, considering the
way I abused that poor motor.
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:06:11 -0400, Al A. <alan...@comcast.net> wrote:
Texas Parts Guy
Brian
harmonic vibrations are too great. I know this because I've tried it as a
paddock repair. I have cut new slots, but often the slot and key extends
back and picks up the timing chain pulley as well. I kind of like the drill
and pin ideas, or the tig weld it ideas. For a free car, tig welding and
remembering to tell anyone who might have to take it apart seems like a good
way to go.
Mostly Vee engines need counterweighted flywheels or balancers, not in-line
or horizontally opposed engines, but I would hate to call that a rule...
Brian
Brian
"Kevin Beitz" <kbe...@lockhavenonline.com> wrote in message
news:83fad4a2.0410...@posting.google.com...
Pat Ford
"Brian" <brian.evans@mci%%%.com> wrote in message
news:uOtfd.81964$vO1.4...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
The subarus I worked on ( as a dealership mechanic) were internaly
balanced.
Pat
js...@blargh.wpi.edu
Until he has to change the timing belt, water pump, or front seal.
-- Joe
--
Joseph M. Krzeszewski Mechanical Engineering and stuff
js...@wpi.edu Jack of All Trades, Master of None... Yet
jim rozen
>
>In article <20041025214428...@mb-m03.aol.com>,
>HaroldA102 <harol...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> if you could get a used balancer put it on if you cannot drill and tap
>>the crank tack weld it a couple times chance are you will not have to take it
>>off anyway!
>
>Until he has to change the timing belt, water pump, or front seal.
He'll never have to do any of those things, if he can't drive
the car. It's junk as it, right?
Don Foreman
original.
HaroldA102
Do any of those things is what i thougt
drive it till the wheels fall off
Jim Stewart
> In article <1KednU-c0dB...@conversent.net>, Jeff Wisnia says...
>
>
>>Desperate times take desperate measures.....
>
>
> Tig weld the thing on the end of the crank?
Yeah but. Subaru's go through front crank oil
seal like water...
Jon Elson
In this car, the
> harmonic balancer came loose about 3 months ago, and it messed up the
> slot in the shaft that the woodruff key for the balancer fits into.
when the front cylinder fires. So, you need a pretty secure fix to
the problem. One way may be to use a small grinder and cut the keyseat
up to the next size, or go to an Imperial-size key which might be the
next size up form the (presumably) metric key. If you can find somebody
with a shaper or shaping attachment, that might be the easiest way to
enlarge the slot in the balancer. But, for a one-off, you could file
it, too. You'd need to test fit frequently, as you need the key to fit
VERY tight, or it will just bang the slot apart again.
My best plan would be to get a tapered pin of a suitable size, and
either drill the existing keyway and then ream with a tapered pin
reamer, or put the old key in just to align things and drill a
new hole and ream the taper in a new spot. You will likely have
to bastardize a new taper pin reamer by cutting off the tip so you
don't bore out your front seal when doing the reaming.
There are special taper pins that have a threaded extension on them.
They are real good for being able to pull the pin out after a test fit.
Once you have it reamed to the right depth and the fit is permanent,
you can cut the threaded part off if it will interfere with the
belts. You could also put some Loctite on the crank for the last
assembly, to help keet the thing from fretting more.
If you drill and fit a taper pin (using it somewhat unconventionally
like a Woodruff key) the damper should not ever move again.
You'll need to drive the pin REALLY tight when you set it the
last time.
What causes these things to happen is that there has to be some
clearance in a Woodruff key to get the damper on the crank.
The tapered pin fits with a decent interference fit, ie. negative
clearance, and can't fret until the elastic limit of the steel is
exceeded.
Jon
Eric R Snow
wrote:
>Hi All,
Greetinga Al,
I repaired a mazda with a similar problem for a friend. The wheel
which had the problem was the timing belt drive off the crankshaft.
The crankshaft key slot was broken out on one side. The wheel still
fit well but location would not hold because of the broken out key
slot. The fix was to drill and tap two holes through the wheel. One
over the key and the other 90 degrees opposite. Then, all parts were
cleaned with brake cleaner. Loctite was then applied to the crankshaft
and the wheel put in place. Since the keyslot was good in one
direction the wheel was rotated in the good direction to locate it.
Loctite was then applied to the set screws and everything was
tightened. The crankshaft had the green #609 loctite and the setscrews
the red #242. These are permanent adhesives. Anyway, the fix worked
another 50,000 miles city driving until he sold the car and is still
holding if the car is still running.
Cheers,
eric
Andy Asberry
I bet timing was a bit of a pain also.
Rex B
wrote:
No problem if you have a lift <G>
Texas Parts Guy
Al A.
wrote:
>Hi All,
> I also posted this question to alt.autos.subaru, but here at RCM we
>know EVERYTHING, so here goes:
>
> I have a chance to pick up (for near zero cost) a 1994 Subaru Legacy
>sedan. It has a 4 Cyl. enging,75K miles,generally decent body, etc.
>not sure of too much else at this point. I'm going for a closer look
>later in the week, but hoped to gather some data first.
<SNIP>
Hey, thanks to all who replied. Lots of great ideas. I am going to
take a look at the car tomorrow or thursday. It sounds to me like
there is a good chance of making a decent repair. If things don't look
too bad, I am going to attempt this. I'm thinking that the best
approach may be more obvious when I get a better look at how
everything goes together.
If and when I do this, I will report back how it all goes.
Thanks again!
-AL
BTW - I also posted this question to alt.autos.subaru at the same time
I posted it here. Score:
RCM - 22 replies
AAS - 1 reply
RCM. Why shop anywhere else?
:)
Al A.
shaped plugs that you see in the outer layers of plywood, that the
mill uses to fill in knot holes.
I don't know where the term comes from either.
Jon Grimm
We spent days repairing part of a cnc lathe turret that had been repaired
that way, um, 3 times
if it didn't work the first time, or the second...
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwi...@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:1KednU-c0dB...@conversent.net...
Martin H. Eastburn
I think you will find the Dutchman is a wood workers Bow Tie shaped
reverse wedges that hold two adjacent pieces together.
It might be a larger group of in-planted clamp.
Martin
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@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer old...@pacbell.net
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NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
jim rozen
says...
>> I don't know where the term comes from either.
>I think you will find the Dutchman is a wood workers Bow Tie shaped
>reverse wedges that hold two adjacent pieces together.
>It might be a larger group of in-planted clamp.
Then they have "dog-bones" that hold large flywheel rim
pieces together. Todd Engine, and all.
Dutchman? That was always understood to be a clever, non-tradional
way of keying something to a shaft. I always thought the deriviation
had something to do with clever german (deutch) toolmakers.